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rob_s
03-01-12, 12:50
I searched this subform for the word "availability" and didn't come up with anything, but if this thread already exists please lock and trash.

what I'm interested in is actual links to retailers selling the specific loads that Doc mentions here (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881) and elsewhere in this subforum.

If you know of a retailer for any of these, post a link and I'll edit this first post to include the links. I realize that not ALL of these are readily available to non-govt. entities so we may not get full population of the list for all loads listed, and let's not stop at one retailer for any one load. I'll paste in as many links under any one load as we come up with.

loads pulled from the linked thread...

For longer range engagements using precision weapons like the Mk12 SPR or DMR rifles with faster 1/8 or 1/7 twist barrels
5.56 Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC)

5.56 Federal 62 gr bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3)
http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/20-rds-556-mm-federal-62-grain-bonded-softpoint-fbi-load-xm556fbit3
http://newfrontierarmory.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=34157
http://www.joitos.com/view/?23605156
http://www.sportsmans-depot.com/products/Federal-Tactical-556NATO-62Gr-Bonded-Hollow-Point-Reclassified-20-1000-XM80C.html

5.56 mm Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B)
5.56 mm Speer 55 gr Gold Dot JSP

5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Mk318 Mod0 (T556TNB1)
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=T556TNB1
http://www.primaryarms.com/Federal_T556_5_56_NATO_62_Grain_p/t556tnb1.htm
http://www.targetsportsusa.com/p-2976-federal-lake-city-556x45mm-mk318-62-grain-sost-ammunition.aspx
http://usarmorment.com/federal-mk318-mod0-556-62-grain-sost-100-rounds-in-stock-p-1782.html?currency=USD

.223 55 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical loads (LE223T1)
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LE223T1

.223 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical loads (LE223T3)
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LE223T3

Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP
http://stores.nextag.com/store/4857533/product/958852218/Nosler-16316-22-Caliber;jsessionid=B3FC7407ECC26C209631A6EF196B8A8F?nxtg=88c70a1c0562-4CCD334BE7251D03

Remington 62 gr Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded JSP (PRC223R4)
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/remington-premier-rifle-ammunition-prc223r4-remington-core-lokt-ultra-bonded-3100-rdbx-p-104850.html
http://www.hinterlandoutfitters.com/remington-premier-core-lokt-ultra-bonded-rifle-ammunition-prc223r4-remington-core-lokt-ultra-bonded-3100-rdbx-p-1697.html
http://www.combattactical.com/prmr-62gr-bonded-20200-p-174351.html

.223 Federal 55 gr TSX (T223S)
http://www.gtdist.com/ProductDetail.aspx?PartNumber=FC-T223X


.223 Speer 55 & 64 gr Gold Dot JSP's
Federal 62 gr Fusion JSP

Federal XM223SP1 62gr Bonded JSP
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/xm223sp1-62gr-bonded.html

Swift 75 gr Scirocco bonded PT

1:12
BH 50 gr TSX
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=D556N1
http://www.triadtactical.com/Black-Hills-New-5.56mm-50-grain-TSX.html
http://www.venturamunitions.com/5-56-mm-50-grain-tsx-black-hills-ammunition/
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/615622/black-hills-ammunition-556x45mm-nato-50-grain-barnes-triple-shock-x-bullet-hollow-point-lead-free-box-of-50

Fed 55 gr TBBC
Speer 55 gr Gold Dot
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=24455
http://www.marklsupply.com/bSpeerbbr556x45mm-55-gr-Gold-Dot-SP_p_124.html

Fed 55 gr TSX

where intermediate barrier penetration is not a critical requirement... ...For 1/7 twist barrels
Hornady 75 gr OTM
Nosler 77 gr OTM
Sierra 77 gr SMK OTM
If stuck with 1/9 twist barrels
69 gr SMK OTM,
68 gr Hornady OTM

Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2)
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM292-1.html

Federal 64 gr TRU (T223L) JSP
Hornady 60 gr JSP


For longer range engagements using precision weapons like the Mk12 SPR or DMR rifles with faster 1/8 or 1/7 twist barrels
Barnes 70 gr TSX (Optimized "browntip")
Hornady 75 gr TAP (#8126N)
Nosler 77 gr
Sierra 77 gr Match King (Mk262 Mod1)


From this thread on hog hunting (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=93683) (some redundancy with above, I'll come back and clean that up)
Federal 55 or 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bonded JSP
Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B)
Remington 62 gr Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded JSP (PRC223R4)
Swift 75 gr Scirocco bonded PT
Speer 55 or 64 gr Gold Dot JSP (and identically constructed Federal 62 gr Fusion JSP and Federal XM223SP1 62gr Bonded JSP)
Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP
Barnes all copper TSX bullets, probably the 70 gr version is best for your needs

BufordTJustice
03-01-12, 22:53
BVAC uses the Federal 62gr Bonded SP loaded to NATO pressure.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ItemDetail.aspx?sku=AMM277

BVAC using 75gr Hornady T1C bullet at NATO pressure (Molon has tested this round with favorable accuracy results on tos):
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM239-5.html

Federal 62gr AB49 (Mk318 SOST):
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM2810-1.html

kenndapp
03-01-12, 23:29
BVAC uses the Federal 62gr Bonded SP loaded to NATO pressure.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ItemDetail.aspx?sku=AMM277

BVAC using 75gr Hornady T1C bullet at NATO pressure (Molon has tested this round with favorable accuracy results on tos):
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM239-5.html

Federal 62gr AB49 (Mk318 SOST):
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM2810-1.html

All the 556 bvac I have ever bought was infact loaded to .223 velocity.

bsmith_shoot
03-01-12, 23:43
Hope im not missing something, but most of these loads are for DMR type weapons. Id like to see loads for HD that are capable target stoppers, but are easily defeated by barriers such as walls, appliances, and furniture. It would be nice to see ones that perform well in SBR's as well.
This is a great ideal Rob, and a sticky would be great when enough info is compiled.
Thanks and God bless,
Brandon

snackgunner
03-01-12, 23:47
5.56 Federal 62 gr bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3)
http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/20-rds-556-mm-federal-62-grain-bonded-softpoint-fbi-load-xm556fbit3
http://newfrontierarmory.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=34157


Thoughts on this? Pulled from the sgammo website:

"Reclassified for consumer sales for reasons unknown to me. This is not labeled as a "second" by the maufacturer"

Im wondering if this ammo is actually good to go. Has anyone bought some of this from sgaammo and tested it?

BufordTJustice
03-02-12, 00:12
All the 556 bvac I have ever bought was infact loaded to .223 velocity.

Molon tested the BVAC 75gr and it is loaded to NATO pressure and velocity.

The results are under 'HSM 5.56 ammo'. They changed their name to BVAC.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/406469_Ammunition_review___HEAVY_OTMs.html

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/6558/hsmmuzzlevelocities01vl6.jpg

BufordTJustice
03-02-12, 00:13
Hope im not missing something, but most of these loads are for DMR type weapons. Id like to see loads for HD that are capable target stoppers, but are easily defeated by barriers such as walls, appliances, and furniture. It would be nice to see ones that perform well in SBR's as well.
This is a great ideal Rob, and a sticky would be great when enough info is compiled.
Thanks and God bless,
Brandon

Brandon,

Any non-bonded soft point or OTM round will meet your criteria.

All above listed loads are VERY capable 'target stoppers'. DocGKR's 5.56 duty ammo thread speaks to this.

J_Dub_503
03-02-12, 01:28
5.56 Federal 62 gr bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3)
http://www.joitos.com/view/?23605156
http://www.sportsmans-depot.com/products/Federal-Tactical-556NATO-62Gr-Bonded-Hollow-Point-Reclassified-20-1000-XM80C.html

5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Mk318 Mod0 (T556TNB1)
http://usarmorment.com/federal-mk318-mod0-556-62-grain-sost-100-rounds-in-stock-p-1782.html?currency=USD

Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP
http://stores.nextag.com/store/4857533/product/958852218/Nosler-16316-22-Caliber;jsessionid=B3FC7407ECC26C209631A6EF196B8A8F?nxtg=88c70a1c0562-4CCD334BE7251D03

Remington 62 gr Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded JSP (PRC223R4)
http://www.combattactical.com/prmr-62gr-bonded-20200-p-174351.html

(BH 50 gr TSX) Black Hills 50gr TSX 5.56 50rd Box
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=D556N1
http://www.triadtactical.com/Black-Hills-New-5.56mm-50-grain-TSX.html
http://www.venturamunitions.com/5-56-mm-50-grain-tsx-black-hills-ammunition/

Speer 55 gr Gold Dot
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=24455
http://www.marklsupply.com/bSpeerbbr556x45mm-55-gr-Gold-Dot-SP_p_124.html

Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2)
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM292-1.html

This website carries ammo with similiar descriptions of the list below
http://store.chencustom.com/223_ammunition_s/36.htm
Hornady 75 gr OTM
Nosler 77 gr OTM
Sierra 77 gr SMK OTM
If stuck with 1/9 twist barrels
69 gr SMK OTM,
68 gr Hornady OTM

Bighead
03-02-12, 09:08
Midway USA carries the Black Hills 5.56 50gr. TSX (50 rd box) http://www.midwayusa.com/product/615622/black-hills-ammunition-556x45mm-nato-50-grain-barnes-triple-shock-x-bullet-hollow-point-lead-free-box-of-50

rob_s
03-02-12, 09:24
Thanks guys, updated the list in the OP with links posted to this point.

MarkG
03-02-12, 09:50
Here is a bit of info to temper the definition of "better performing". Two police shootings in the Phoenix area last month. Two 55 grain bulk pack ammo bullets, two dead idiots. One of them was shot out of ballisticly challenged 10.3" LE6945. Who would of thunk it...

Cincinnatus
03-02-12, 10:04
Here is a bit of info to temper the definition of "better performing". Two police shootings in the Phoenix area last month. Two 55 grain bulk pack ammo bullets, two dead idiots. One of them was shot out of ballisticly challenged 10.3" LE6945. Who would of thunk it...

Any links to more info on these incidents? Number of shots fired, shot placement, etc?

rob_s
03-02-12, 10:09
Here is a bit of info to temper the definition of "better performing". Two police shootings in the Phoenix area last month. Two 55 grain bulk pack ammo bullets, two dead idiots. One of them was shot out of ballisticly challenged 10.3" LE6945. Who would of thunk it...


Any links to more info on these incidents? Number of shots fired, shot placement, etc?

Guys, this isn't the thread for this.

Ty_B
03-02-12, 12:06
Rob,

Great thread.

Not sure if you want to add this, but there was some testing done on the 75 gr Privi here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/491816_.html

You might want to add that to your 'Where intermediate barriers are not a problem' section. If this ammo is deemed unworthy, please delete this post to prevent confusion.


http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/products_id/1491

BOM
03-02-12, 12:42
55gr 5.56 Gold Dot:

http://www.sgammo.com/product/speer/20-rd-box-556-x-45-speer-gold-dot-55-grain-gdsp-24455

kenndapp
03-02-12, 14:43
Molon tested the BVAC 75gr and it is loaded to NATO pressure and velocity.

The results are under 'HSM 5.56 ammo'. They changed their name to BVAC.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/406469_Ammunition_review___HEAVY_OTMs.html

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/6558/hsmmuzzlevelocities01vl6.jpg

i own both 5.56 75gr t1c from bvac AND hsm. they are not one in the same. that crono data posted on ar15.com is true HSM not BVAC. the bvac consistently cronos almost 200 fps slower than the hsm. they are not the same company with a different name. bvac is a couple guys from hsm that had some kind of falling out and left hsm to start their own ammo company.....from what i read. i don't know how factual that is. but i do know the crono data........ and all the 5.56 BVAC that i have shot and cronoed is in fact .223 ammo. the stuff struggles to cycle my 5.56 rifle. all this has turned me off to all 5.56 offerings from bvac. when looking for a good affordable stash of mk318, i looked at bvac's offering. but because of my experience with the 5.56 75gr tap clone......i stay away. your results might be different, but i doubt it. this was from multiple lots of bvac spread out over 1000 rounds or more. it was not just one particular under-loaded lot. do your self a favor and stay away from 5.56 bvac.....unless you have a .223 chamber.

BufordTJustice
03-02-12, 14:49
i own both 5.56 75gr t1c from bvac AND hsm. they are not one in the same. that crono data posted on ar15.com is true HSM not BVAC. the bvac consistently cronos almost 200 fps slower than the hsm. they are not the same company with a different name. bvac is a couple guys from hsm that had some kind of falling out and left hsm to start their own ammo company.....from what i read. i don't know how factual that is. but i do know the crono data........ and all the 5.56 BVAC that i have shot and cronoed is in fact .223 ammo.

Take it up with Molon.

bsmith_shoot
03-02-12, 17:37
Brandon,

Any non-bonded soft point or OTM round will meet your criteria.

All above listed loads are VERY capable 'target stoppers'. DocGKR's 5.56 duty ammo thread speaks to this.

Thanks friend. Im looking at Federals 64gr TRU for my sbr load.
Brandon

BufordTJustice
03-02-12, 17:50
Thanks friend. Im looking at Federals 64gr TRU for my sbr load.
Brandon

NP, bro.

My agency used to issue the TRU (which is non-bonded) I can confirm that drywall, auto glass, and newer car doors are kryptonite to the TRU. I suppose it would fill the apartment dweller role well. So would the 75gr Hornady TAP round, just so you know.

bsmith_shoot
03-02-12, 22:54
Thanks friend, but you may have opened a can of worms, lol. If you dont mind, could you answer a couple ammo related questions I have? I would appreciate it if Rob could chime in also.
My questions are about HD ammo for SBR's.
1. I know that shorter barrels create lower velocities, so whats the magic number I should look for? Most manufacturer listed velocities are measured using 16" barrels, but mine is 11.5", so how could I find it out for my weapon?
2. Should I use heavy rounds, or light? Would my sbr perform best with a 55gr round like TAP, or a 75gr TAP loading?
3. I know that placement is priority, but having the best ammo for your weapon cant hurt anything. Would a HP, SP, balistic tip, etc..... Be the best target stopper? I will shoot till my targets no longer a threat, but the right ammo might make that happen faster.

If this is too much to ask, no problem.
Thanks and God bless,
Brandon

BufordTJustice
03-02-12, 23:23
Thanks friend, but you may have opened a can of worms, lol. If you dont mind, could you answer a couple ammo related questions I have? I would appreciate it if Rob could chime in also.
My questions are about HD ammo for SBR's.
1. I know that shorter barrels create lower velocities, so whats the magic number I should look for? Most manufacturer listed velocities are measured using 16" barrels, but mine is 11.5", so how could I find it out for my weapon?
2. Should I use heavy rounds, or light? Would my sbr perform best with a 55gr round like TAP, or a 75gr TAP loading?
3. I know that placement is priority, but having the best ammo for your weapon cant hurt anything. Would a HP, SP, balistic tip, etc..... Be the best target stopper? I will shoot till my targets no longer a threat, but the right ammo might make that happen faster.

If this is too much to ask, no problem.
Thanks and God bless,
Brandon

I'll quote Dr. Roberts.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881

"Short barreled 5.56 mm weapons, such as the Colt Commando, Mk18 CQBR, HK416, HK53, HK G36C, etc… offer advantages in confined spaces. With SBR’s it is best to stick with the barrier blind loads recommended above, although the heavy OTM's suggested for long distance shooting will also work. SBR's can run into rotational velocity issues with some loads, so it is generally best to select faster 1/7 twist barrels whenever possible. Remember, with SBR’s, effective engagement distances are significantly reduced compared to the longer barreled carbines.

Keep in mind, that with non-fragmenting bullet designs, heavier bullet weights are not necessarily better, especially at closer ranges and from shorter barrels. As long as penetration and upset remain adequate, it is possible to use lighter weight non-fragmenting bullets and still have outstanding terminal performance. With fragmenting designs, a heavier bullet is ideal, as it provides more potential fragments and still allows the central core to have enough mass for adequate penetration. In addition, heavier bullets may have an advantage at longer ranges due to better BC and less wind drift."

If you have any more questions, feel free to PM me, I don't wanna thread drift any more than we already have.

Jake'sDad
03-02-12, 23:35
i own both 5.56 75gr t1c from bvac AND hsm. they are not one in the same. that crono data posted on ar15.com is true HSM not BVAC. the bvac consistently cronos almost 200 fps slower than the hsm. they are not the same company with a different name. bvac is a couple guys from hsm that had some kind of falling out and left hsm to start their own ammo company....


Take it up with Molon.

Why should he "take it up with Molon"?

You are the one that posted in this thread:



The results are under 'HSM 5.56 ammo'. They changed their name to BVAC.

That is factually and unequivocally incorrect.

BVAC was started by a former employee of HSM, (who now no longer owns it). They are two separate companies and always have been.

If you want to flog BVAC ammo, don't do it by pointing to HSM testing data.

BufordTJustice
03-03-12, 01:27
Why should he "take it up with Molon"?

You are the one that posted in this thread:



That is factually and unequivocally incorrect.

BVAC was started by a former employee of HSM, (who now no longer owns it). They are two separate companies and always have been.

If you want to flog BVAC ammo, don't do it by pointing to HSM testing data.



You're right. Darren Newsome was the manager at HSM for nearly 20 years. In 2008 he started BVAC as a separate business entity. In 2011 he sold the assets to an LLC named Pro Grade Ammo Group and remained on staff as a manager and consultant. I stand corrected.

I'm not backing down from the claim that the BVAC 75gr 5.5617T load is hotter than SAAMI pressure. It may not be the equal of Horandy TAP 5.56 (full NATO loading), but ti is hotter than .223 and not safe to shoot in a .223 chamber. I don't own a chronograph, but apparently kenndap does. I'll wait for additional chrono data to comment additionally on the exact velocity of the BVAC 75gr load.

I have shot that BVAC load back to back with BH blue box .223 75gr and hornady TAP FPD 75gr. It felt noticeably hotter than both of those loads (and was also less accurate). The difference was obvious in muzzle report, gun movement, and blast to the shooter (I use a comp). I mixed the BVAC and Federal XM193 in the same mag and was unable to discern a difference based on anything other than POI; they felt identical when shooting offhand. Whereas M193 feels noticeable hotter than any of the above listed .223 loads.

Further, I shot it in a squadmate's 16" bushmaster which I know to have a .223 chamber (used a set of guages to confirm). He consistently had failures to extract, flattened primers, and several (4) popped primers with the BVAC load and NONE of those issues with the two above listed SAAMI pressure loads. These are the same types of issues he used to have when he ran Federal XM193 (before I dropped some gauges into his chamber). Using .223 pressure ammo, his gun runs fine and primers look normal.

I am also NOT saying it's the equal of Hornady/Nosler/Asym/Federal/Winchester in terms of ammunition quality. This is a thread about affordable (and available) defensive ammo. The BVAC 75gr load meets all of these criteria.

Matter of fact, I actually found a box of the BVAC 75gr 5.56-17T load lying around my house. It's free to anybody who wants to chronograph it...just send me a shipping label. I'm not guaranteeing its performance...but I am not just flapping my gums either. The offer is serious. PM me if you're interested. Only condition is that a separate thread is started and photos are posted of the results. Shipment will be from Orlando, FL (32829).

EDIT: Molon tested the BVAC 75gr round preliminarily with lackluster accuracy results.
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=504025

rob_s
03-03-12, 06:24
Just so everyone is clear, I'm reporting all of the posts that aren't directly related to the topic at hand which is providing links to purchase the various ammo types that Doc Roberts has recommended in other threads.

The rest of this discussion may be interesting or useful to some of you but it should be "taken up" elsewhere.

I'm going to recommend that they be split off into a new thread, not just deleted outright.

Grim Fandango
03-04-12, 14:51
Federal Fusion 62 gr. JSP

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/20rds-223-federal-fusion-62gr-sp-ammo

As a side note, I'm beginning to wonder if this round has been discontinued. I haven't been able to find it at any of my local sporting goods stores where it was previously available: Academy, Bass Pro Shops, and Gander Mountain. The other caliber still seem to be available, but I can't find the .223 loading anymore.

tpd223
03-05-12, 06:09
Federal Fusion 62 gr. JSP

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/20rds-223-federal-fusion-62gr-sp-ammo

As a side note, I'm beginning to wonder if this round has been discontinued. I haven't been able to find it at any of my local sporting goods stores where it was previously available: Academy, Bass Pro Shops, and Gander Mountain. The other caliber still seem to be available, but I can't find the .223 loading anymore.

Still listed here;

http://www.fusionammo.com/products/rifle.aspx

Icculus
03-09-12, 11:56
Good thread Rob. Since sometimes ammo resellers struggle to accurately label their products I also think its a big help that you include the mfg part # when possible. If we could try to fill in the ones that are missing it would be great; it just helps cut down on confusion.

As for the Federal Fusion 62gr jsp it looks like it's also available at Palmetto state armory
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ammunition/rifle-ammunition/223-5-56/federal-fusion-ammunition-223-remington-62-grain-spitzer-boat-tail-box-of-20.html
That is assuming the F223FS1 is the load that Doc was referencing and their isn't a 5.56 version of this same ammo floating out there somewhere.

Jake'sDad
03-09-12, 14:56
Good thread Rob. Since sometimes ammo resellers struggle to accurately label their products I also think its a big help that you include the mfg part # when possible. If we could try to fill in the ones that are missing it would be great; it just helps cut down on confusion.

As for the Federal Fusion 62gr jsp it looks like it's also available at Palmetto state armory
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ammunition/rifle-ammunition/223-5-56/federal-fusion-ammunition-223-remington-62-grain-spitzer-boat-tail-box-of-20.html
That is assuming the F223FS1 is the load that Doc was referencing and their isn't a 5.56 version of this same ammo floating out there somewhere.

Afaik, there hasn't been a 5.56 version of Fusion, since they aim that line at the sporting/hunting market. They've only loaded the Gold Dot version in 5.56. I believe the Gold Dot has crimped primers like the Federal TRU loads, not sure about the Fusion.

El Cid
03-10-12, 09:01
70gr TSX:
Southwest Ammo
http://www.southwestammunition.com/product_p/55670tsx.htm

Asym Ammo (Stan Chen)
http://store.chencustom.com/223_SOLID_DEFENSE_X_70_gr_Barnes_Copper_TSX_s/92.htm

77gr SMK:
Southwest Ammo
"Run and gun" (military pull down brass)
http://www.southwestammunition.com/product_p/55677smk-rng.htm

New
http://www.southwestammunition.com/product_p/55677smk-match.htm

Asym Ammo (Stan Chen)
http://store.chencustom.com/223_Rem_77_gr_Tactical_OTM_s/40.htm

Mike from Texas
03-10-12, 09:14
70gr TSX:
Southwest Ammo
http://www.southwestammunition.com/product_p/55670tsx.htm

Asym Ammo (Stan Chen)
http://store.chencustom.com/223_SOLID_DEFENSE_X_70_gr_Barnes_Copper_TSX_s/92.htm

77gr SMK:
Southwest Ammo
"Run and gun" (military pull down brass)
http://www.southwestammunition.com/product_p/55677smk-rng.htm

New
http://www.southwestammunition.com/product_p/55677smk-match.htm

Asym Ammo (Stan Chen)
http://store.chencustom.com/223_Rem_77_gr_Tactical_OTM_s/40.htm

Wouldn't the 70 grain TSX grossly over penetrate? I use this round for hunting and I ALWAYS get complete pass through even on large hogs.


Sent from iPhone/Tapatalk

DocGKR
03-10-12, 09:24
The 50 gr TSX is more appropriate for CONUS LE and self-defense use.

vicious_cb
03-10-12, 23:43
Looks like SGammo is expecting some 5.56 mm Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B):

http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/20-rds-556mm-bonded-winchester-ranger-64gr-jsp-ammo-ra556b

urbankaos04
03-16-12, 20:53
I take they must have made an error in describing this as 5.56 ammo:

http://www.fusionammo.com/ballistics/rifle.aspx?id=803

MegademiC
03-17-12, 00:01
Ok, I think this question is appropriate for this thread(if not let me know and ill remove it).

I noticed all the mk318 listed here is around $18/20rds. CTD has it for $11 something and $14 some from 2 different manufactures. The $11 one is 62gr OTMRP. Is that actually mk318 or a decent clone or is it something completely different? They say its the same, but I'd like to hear feedback (anyone chrono it, etc) before I puchase a bunch.

Link : http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM281-1.html

Also, still looks like palmetto is the only one with sp1 and its still outta stock:(

ack495
03-17-12, 04:59
Ok, I think this question is appropriate for this thread(if not let me know and ill remove it).

I noticed all the mk318 listed here is around $18/20rds. CTD has it for $11 something and $14 some from 2 different manufactures. The $11 one is 62gr OTMRP. Is that actually mk318 or a decent clone or is it something completely different? They say its the same, but I'd like to hear feedback (anyone chrono it, etc) before I puchase a bunch.

Link : http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM281-1.html

Also, still looks like palmetto is the only one with sp1 and its still outta stock:(

The $11 stuff listed on CTD is manufactured by BVAC, not Federal, but identical to MK318 as far as I understand.

Robb Jensen
03-17-12, 08:18
We got some of this in the other day:
5.56 mm Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B)

It's expensive as hell, retails for about $2 a round.

WS6
03-22-12, 10:40
Thoughts on this? Pulled from the sgammo website:

"Reclassified for consumer sales for reasons unknown to me. This is not labeled as a "second" by the maufacturer"

Im wondering if this ammo is actually good to go. Has anyone bought some of this from sgaammo and tested it?

Yes. It chronographed 2872 out of a 14.5" barreled M4, and shot 9 out of 10 rounds into about 2MOA, and the 10th in both groups I fired opened up to 2.5-2.6MOA. CAR A3 Elite w/10X Leupold. I am not sure if it was my fault, or not. I suspect it was not, as I have found this ammo gives a few fliers now and then in every group I have shot with it. However, it might not be that bad, as I think the combo had another 1/2MOA in it that I personally failed to extract that day. Either way, still plenty accurate for the intended purpose.

I will admit that I did switch to the SOST ammo because it is more consistently accurate, though.

Mag360
03-24-12, 07:21
The 50 gr TSX is more appropriate for CONUS LE and self-defense use.

Is that because the 77 over penetrates or the 50 creates a better wound channel?

Mag360
03-24-12, 07:26
The 50 gr TSX is more appropriate for CONUS LE and self-defense use.

Is that because the 77 over penetrates or the 50 creates a better wound channel?

mig1nc
03-24-12, 08:24
Awesome thread guys, thanks for this.

Sent from my T7575 using Board Express

snackgunner
03-25-12, 08:42
Is that because the 77 over penetrates or the 50 creates a better wound channel?

Good question. I'm curious to know as well.

rocsteady
08-15-12, 14:17
Is that because the 77 over penetrates or the 50 creates a better wound channel?

Not to speak for Doc but just from reading a zillion other posts, I believe that he favors the 50 TSX for CONUS/LE/SD because it is more barrier blind.

The 50 grainer seems to be a more robust round as it will hold its petals better through barriers than the 70 grain round. The trade-off being that it needs 2300 fps to perform optimally and the 70 grain TSX needs something like 1800 fps. This limits the range of the 50 grain round compared to the 70 but that limit is still well within all but the most extreme ranges that could be found in an urban/CONUS engagement.

Just spitting back what I've been reading as I had the same questions. I have only used the Black Hills 50 grain TSX at the range, but have been very impressed with its performance out to 200 yards. Do have to add that that "performance" has been on water bottles and not any sort of live game.

Also, due to the cost, I've only shot a few hundred rounds of it during range/training time. I have had no hiccups of any sort though. I am confident stocking up for whatever may come and it is the round that fills my "ready to go" mags at the house.

Would love to try a helo hog hunt to see the 50 in real action...

Ironman8
08-15-12, 15:13
Not to speak for Doc but just from reading a zillion other posts, I believe that he favors the 50 TSX for CONUS/LE/SD because it is more barrier blind.

The 50 grainer seems to be a more robust round as it will hold its petals better through barriers than the 70 grain round. The trade-off being that it needs 2300 fps to perform optimally and the 70 grain TSX needs something like 1800 fps. This limits the range of the 50 grain round compared to the 70 but that limit is still well within all but the most extreme ranges that could be found in an urban/CONUS engagement.

Just spitting back what I've been reading as I had the same questions. I have only used the Black Hills 50 grain TSX at the range, but have been very impressed with its performance out to 200 yards. Do have to add that that "performance" has been on water bottles and not any sort of live game.

Also, due to the cost, I've only shot a few hundred rounds of it during range/training time. I have had no hiccups of any sort though. I am confident stocking up for whatever may come and it is the round that fills my "ready to go" mags at the house.

Would love to try a helo hog hunt to see the 50 in real action...

Keep in mind that the load that you are referring to that was recommended by Doc due to all of the above that you wrote is the Black Hills load. The projectile available as a reloading component is different than the BH projectile and doesn't (AFAIK) perform "as well" through barriers.

I have asked Doc about which load he would recommend as a reloading component, and he suggested the 55gr TSX for general purpose CONUS use and the 70gr for longer range work where wind drift might be more of an issue.

Tedfs
08-18-12, 02:59
Keep in mind that the load that you are referring to that was recommended by Doc due to all of the above that you wrote is the Black Hills load. The projectile available as a reloading component is different than the BH projectile and doesn't (AFAIK) perform "as well" through barriers.

I have asked Doc about which load he would recommend as a reloading component, and he suggested the 55gr TSX for general purpose CONUS use and the 70gr for longer range work where wind drift might be more of an issue.

Thank you for the component info. I for one would be more interested in seeing a list similar to the Duty loads but geared towards components.

I know reloading can be a touchy subject for some but if it were kept to components and velocities, leaving out powders and charges, it may work.
Reloading component info is more valuable to me than a list of Duty loads that I will never be able to find, buy or afford.

Most of us have to work with what's available. I'm not Law Enforcement so most of the offerings listed are not available to me. What components
can Joe Nobody can buy, use and be just as effective ?

That would be an interesting topic.

DocGKR
08-18-12, 09:37
Tedfs--All of the loads listed are readily available to anybody if you search around a bit...


"Is that because the 77 over penetrates or the 50 creates a better wound channel?"

The 77 gr SMK is extremely accurate, but is not a barrier blind load. The Black Hills 50 gr TSX works well against intermediate barriers while and demonstrating terminal effects meeting the guidelines set for CONUS LE use. The 70 gr TSX is also a good load, but probably a bit more appropriate for longer range engagements or hunting.

Tedfs
08-18-12, 14:31
First of all I'd like to apologize for injecting this side of the equation into this topic, however, I do feel it's related to the topic of the
"Availability of Better Performing 5.56 Self Defense Loads"


Tedfs--All of the loads listed are readily available to anybody if you search around a bit...

...

That is true, however, one of my main concerns is being able to train with what I plan to carry.

I did luck into a few boxes of 64 gr Gold Dots earlier this year but not nearly enough to train with and have some left over for carry.

Since there's no Department issuing ammo for me, cost is a factor to the amount that can be purchased at one time. It's more cost
effective (for me) to work up a load with quality components and run a thousand or two in a class/training to see how they perform
over time out of my rifles.

While most of the components listed in the loaded ammunition you recommend aren't available for purchase, some are and developing
safe, quality 5.56 loads from them is possible and cheaper. Allowing the end user to train with what they carry.

Having control over ever single aspect of making rounds, from choosing the brass to seating the bullet can produce some very
good results. Testing of those rounds to see how the perform and if they meet the criteria listed would be an interesting discussion.

DocGKR
08-18-12, 15:28
Once our zero and function is confirmed with a few hundred rounds, ALL additional training is conducted with 55 gr FMJ--generally Federal XM193 or AE223. Whether using 77 gr SMK, 75 gr TAP, 70 gr TSX, 64 gr JSP, 62 gr JSP, 55 gr JSP, or 50 gr TSX, the POA/POI with the 55 gr training ammo is more than adequate for training out to 100 yds and is reasonably OK out to 200. Beyond that, it is best to use practice ammo with the same trajectory as duty, but then again, how much carbine training (vice DMR) is conducted beyond 200 yds?

Tedfs
08-18-12, 16:31
I'm inadequately qualified to answer how much carbine training is done beyond 200 yards but would have to say not much outside of those very few individuals that need to in whatever Department they may operate.

Personally, long range performance doesn't interest me as much as close range performance and barrier penetration performance. A threat at 300 meters is no threat to me if E&E is an option. Unfortunately Law Enforcement doesn't give the luxury to pick and choose threats and distances of engagements so that audience is better served knowing performance issues at range.

Learning some of the skill sets used in longer range shooting would benefit anyone to better understand what their bullets are doing at different distances. Yet knowing how fast to push a commercially available projectile (at closer ranges) to get performance similar to the Duty loads you recommend would benefit a larger audience of shooters that also have a valid need for quality 5.56 Self Defense loads.

I prefer 62 gr - 64 gr projectiles for the sake of simplicity and similarity to what is currently available in the market of 5.56 x 45 loads. Those weights are easy to push past 3,000 fps with the right powders, properly prepared brass and attention to safety.

Some pulled 64 gr bonded projectiles were available a few months ago and those are performing nicely but I'm waiting for an answer back from Nosler about the commercial availability of their 64gr BSB. Hopefully it's a positive one.

saddlerocker
09-04-12, 21:43
Not sure if your still updating this, but there are alot more out here.
Seems to be alot of good loads available right now.

SGAmmo has RA556B/ZQ3313 and 55gr Gold Dot .223

ZQ3313
http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/20-rd-box-556mm-winchester-64-grain-nosler-bonded-bsb-soft-point-zq3313

RA556B
http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/20-rds-556mm-bonded-winchester-ranger-64gr-jsp-ammo-ra556b

.223 55gr Gold Dot
http://www.sgammo.com/product/speer/20-rd-box-223-speer-gold-dot-le-55-grain-gdsp-soft-point-ammo-24446

Ammotogo has Remington 62gr Bonded, Ranger 60gr Partition, and 62gr Fusion

Ranger Partition
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/20rds-223-winchester-ranger-60gr-partition-soft-point-ammo/cName/223-556-soft-point

Reminton 62gr Bonded
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/20rds-223-remington-premier-62gr-corelokt-ultra-bonded-pointed-soft-point-ammo/cName/223-556-soft-point

Fusion
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/cPath/24_83_107/products_id/4887