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I am getting ready to reload for my Rock River M-4 w/ 16 in. chrome molly r-4 profile barrel w/1:9 twist. My powder will be either Accurate 2200 or Hodgdon H335. Probably the H335 as I have some on hand, the cases will be fire formed 5.56 federal/lake city brass (fire formed to my rifle). The bullets will be winchester Gr full medal jacket. CCI small rifle primers. I will be loading on a Lee Turret press that I have used for many years loading handgun ammo. So the questions are Accurate reloading data give information on barrel length 24 ", and recommend reducing the load by -3% for barrels under 24" and barrels under 20" reduce -9%. then the give load data for Heavy Long bullets.:confused: The data for Hodgdon H335 gives no other data other just the gains for the bullet weight. So if I should decide to use the Accurate powder should I use the load data for the long heavy bullet or what:help: thank you for your assistance. Please don't flame me about my choices. It's too late to influence me on what to buy or use. OH! the ammo will be used for plinking and general use.
kingkroupa
03-16-12, 11:47
Generally you want to full length re-size brass for semi auto's so I'm not sure fireforming will do much for you, unless I'm missing something.
Use the H335 and work up from their starting load. You should find a sweet spot up around 25gr or so.
Yes you should full length rise all ammo for a semi auto.
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the fire form will be because I was able to get a deal on a 1000 rounds of Federal Milspec Ammo and I am planing on reloading the brass. I have Lee dies and will resize each case. I was wondering why one powder company would give loading data for barrel length, heavy long bullets and then Nato spec data. I like to be able to develop loads for at least to different powders in case I run out of one I can still load and shoot. I use AA#5 and #2 for a lot of my hand guns. I have load data for AA#9 and H110 form my M-1 Carbine. Thanks for your in put. I am new to the Forum and have been lurking in the back ground for some time. I don't join things often. Last time I jointed a group I was given an M16 and sent to Viet Nam.:D
Negative. They say to reduce the expected velocity, not the powder charge:
For shorter barrels reduce velocity below as follows(ca): 20" -3.9%/-130Fps// 16" -9.0%/-300Fp
Stay with the .223 data section. Think of 5.56 loads as +P+ for use ONLY in 5.56 NATO chambers.
Thanks I was given the same information at another forum. My m4 is chambered for 5.56 & 223. Your probly right about sticking to one calaber to reduce confusion
Thanks I was given the same information at another forum. My m4 is chambered for 5.56 & 223. Your probly right about sticking to one calaber to reduce confusion
Have you checked you chamber to ensure that it is truly 5.56...RRA's usually have a tight chamber. I wouldn't risk using 5.56 in it 'till you get it checked.
Exactly what I was thinking as well.
Have you checked you chamber to ensure that it is truly 5.56...RRA's usually have a tight chamber. I wouldn't risk using 5.56 in it 'till you get it checked.
I assume you meant Accurate 2230 rather than 2200?
In my experience, Accurate 2230, H335, TAC, and WC844 are all very close in burn rate and performance. They also appear almost identical as well. DO NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE OF USING THE SAME DATA BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT POWDERS. Keep meticulous notes for the day you have to pull bullets then can't identify the powder you used.
Always start low and work up until you see pressure signs. At the first appearance of pressure signs STOP and consider very carefully before going higher. Flattened primers is not the best indicator either. Look more for the imprint of the ejector hole on your brass headstamp, and shiny "swipes" where the ejector raked across the headstamp during ejection.
Don't load a thousand rounds of a borderline hot load until you have tested them in different weather conditions. A load developed in winter may not be so great when the temp hits 90-100 F. You may wind up pulling a lot of bullets.
Your RRA most likely does NOT have a true 5.56 chamber even if it's marked 5.56 on the barrel. (And I'm NOT trashing your gun here, just stating my experiences) Been there done that. If you go to 5.56 pressures it may start blowing primers, ripping the rims off your brass, etc. Working up to a load will prevent this, and I've always found .223-level loads to be the best performers anyway. That bad guy or paper target will never notice the velocity difference.
On the loading 556 vs 223:
While you may eventually want to load some true 556 for specific functions/reasons/goals, going more than a middle of the road 223 for most uses including practice and training is just a waste of powder :-) The extra grain or 3 adds up to more cases you can load out of a jug of powder if you don't load to 556
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I thank everyone that replied to my post .I did check the chamber my rifle, the 556 and the 223 both fit the chamber with out problems. The 556 round was sitted in the chamber without being to tight. Bolt closed with out a problem and the round ejected without issue. Tomorrow I will fire some of the 556 ammo to see if there is a issue when things are hot.
I thank everyone that replied to my post .I did check the chamber my rifle, the 556 and the 223 both fit the chamber with out problems. The 556 round was sitted in the chamber without being to tight. Bolt closed with out a problem and the round ejected without issue. Tomorrow I will fire some of the 556 ammo to see if there is a issue when things are hot.
Kingsford - Some info to keep in mind:
There is no difference in a .223 bolt and 5.56 bolt. Semi Auto and FA bolt carriers can also be interchanged. This has noting to do with manufacturing quality differences, which can be major.
There is no difference in external dimensions for .223 & 5.56 ammo (allowing for nominal tolerances). And there is no difference in the brass cases, also allowing for nominal tolerances).
The only difference in chambers between the two is the 5.56 has a longer throat, which allows the hotter 5.56 ammo to be safely used.
5.56 is simply loaded to higher pressures than .223.
kingsford, when people talk about fireforming, they're generally speaking of using the rifle's chamber to significantly change the case dimensions from one cartridge to another. An example would be to shoot 22Hornet in a 22-K Hornet chamber. What you have is once fired brass that was shot in your rifle. You'll need to full length size it.
There is no difference between a 5.56 case external dimension and a .223 case external dimension. The chamber difference in the barrel is the throat IN FRONT of the case is much longer in 5.56 to reduce pressures to a manageable level. The throat is the "funnel" portion that guides the bullet into the rifling. So a 5.56 will chamber perfectly, it's what happens when you fire it that gets kinda scary.
5.56 is nothing more than a .223 that is loaded well OVER MAX for .223 and will overpressure a .223 chambered barrel. The military did this years ago so that the ammo would pass a penetration test at 500 meters. The resulting HOT load was called the 5.56 to distinguish it from civilian .223. They had to modify the throat in the barrel to prevent dangerous overpressures. The regular .223 did not have enough energy left at that range to reliably penetrate to their requirements.
Just because it will chamber does NOT mean it will be safe. It will most likely not blow your gun up, but it will definitely show signs of excessive pressure liked primers blowing out etc.
My barrels that were marked 5.56 still showed a LOT of metal shavings when I ran a Christensen 5.56 reamer in them-all but my Colt barrel. It was fine. Now that they have been corrected, they will run 5.56 fine, but not before.
MTRMN, thanks for the clarification, as you can tell I am not an expert, I know just enough to get into trouble. There is so much information on the internet and these forums a person needs to take what is said with a grain of salt. Thanks for your information. The information on my rifle has been correct to this point.
MTRMN, thanks for the clarification, as you can tell I am not an expert, I know just enough to get into trouble. There is so much information on the internet and these forums a person needs to take what is said with a grain of salt. Thanks for your information. The information on my rifle has been correct to this point.
You are welcome. My advice may not always be perfectly correct, but I'm trying to keep you from getting into trouble.
I must stress this point--the guns I had trouble with on pressures WERE MARKED 5.56 on the barrel but they were proven to NOT have a true 5.56 chamber throat. I purchased a reamer from Ned Christiansen at Michiguns and ran it in every barrel I had, including the Colt which did not have any problems. The Colt was a true 5.56 and the reamer did not remove any material, but all the others were not. They were Delton and (gasp) Blackthorne builds. After reaming the pressure problems went away.
I was using my reloads developed in my Colt to 5.56 specs. When I tried them in the other guns I got primers blown out of cases, flattened primers to the point they (and the headstamp) were "smeared", rims torn off my brass leaving the empty brass in the barrel, and all manner of other problems all due to high pressures.
I learned the hard way but you don't have to by looking at my example. Try a few rounds of factory 5.56 in your gun and look closely at the brass-if pressure signs are present then I would see about getting your chamber checked.
A heavier buffer and spring may help as well if the pressure signs are not severe. OR JUST STICK WITH .223 LOADING DATA and you'll never notice the difference.
My best performing loads are all within .223 specs.
I must stress this point--the guns I had trouble with on pressures WERE MARKED 5.56 on the barrel but they were proven to NOT have a true 5.56 chamber throat. I purchased a reamer from Ned Christiansen at Michiguns and ran it in every barrel I had, including the Colt which did not have any problems. The Colt was a true 5.56 and the reamer did not remove any material, but all the others were not.
Did it cut through the chrome lining in the chamber and throat areas of the rifles? Does this tool work on rifles other than AR's? The reason that I ask is that not only do I have several AR's that I'd like to ensure have true 5.56 chambers, but I have several other non-AR type rifles that are also candidates.
"Did it cut through the chrome lining in the chamber and throat areas of the rifles? "
None of my cheapass barrels are chrome lined anyway, BUT Ned says it will do fine on cutting chrome lining. It MAY shorten the life of the reamer, but I don't plan on doing more than maybe a dozen barrels in MY lifetime. I gathered from the literature with the tool that the best way to tear up the reamer was to turn it counterclockwise rather than clockwise like it is designed to turn. Also, it shouldn't remove metal from the actual chamber itself, just the throat if I understand correctly the difference in 223/556.
"Does this tool work on rifles other than AR's? The reason that I ask is that not only do I have several AR's that I'd like to ensure have true 5.56 chambers, but I have several other non-AR type rifles that are also candidates."
The reamer itself may very well work on any type barrel, I don't know. BUT the special T handle/storage container is made specifically for use with AR15's. It is designed to insure the reamer is held in alignment with the chamber while you turn it (by hand).
Go here to read all about it, and go to "Contact" to send an email or get a phone number to call. I'm sure Ned will be glad to answer any more questions.
http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php
They also have a 223/556 chamber gauge, but I knew my barrels were out of spec, so I just went for the final option and spent any money the gauge would cost on the solution to the problem. It was worth it for me to correct 4 barrels vs the cost to replace 4 barrels.
THIS thread is where I learned the error of my ways
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81389
Thanks to Chadbag!!!!!!!!:thank_you2:
There is also a sticky on here about the differences in .223/5.56.
Generalpie
03-25-12, 13:47
Every load is an individual. If you change anything (brass, primer, bullet brand, etc) start over looking for pressure signs.
Unless you are reloading for something very specific you will likely get zero advantage to pushing the envelope. All my "real" ammo is factory so I have worked up a load well in the middle of the road so I can used mixed brass without trouble on all my training rounds.
Plus you will almost always get better accuracy at a less than max load if you are loading for extreme accuracy.
mtrmn, thanks for the detailed response.
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