1-4 Variable optic options

[Vinh]

CarlosDJackal,

Since you have a T-1, try mounting it in front of your 1-4x optic on a railed forend (preferably with a low mount). This test will allow you to see whether the benefits of a Short Dot would be sufficient to warrant a purchase.

After two years, I recently stuck my Aimpoint in front of my Nightforce to simulate a daytime illuminated reticle, and finally felt compelled to purchase a Short Dot.

[CarlosDJackal]

CarlosDJackal,

Since you have a T-1, try mounting it in front of your 1-4x optic on a railed forend (preferably with a low mount). This test will allow you to see whether the benefits of a Short Dot would be sufficient to warrant a purchase.

After two years, I recently stuck my Aimpoint in front of my Nightforce to simulate a daytime illuminated reticle, and finally felt compelled to purchase a Short Dot.

Vihn,

I'm not sure what you mean, but I don't own a 1-4x optic. At least not yet. I do use my T1 in front of the 3x magnifier.

I may have to invest in the DD offset mount for my T1 and a cheap 1-4 optic just to see what it's like. I am looking at this setup primarily for deployment to that big sandbox (a long ways down the road - if I decide to do it).

[Failure2Stop]

Maybe it's because I have no experience with the Short Dots; but how do they handle in CQB situations in comparison with a Red Dot scope?

I tried a Short Dot for a very little time a while ago. At the time I was working on another setup, so I didn't give it much time, though I liked it.

I just got a DMS-1 to work with for a while to see if I want to drop the (significant and imposing) cash for an S&B.

Shooting with both eyes open on the lowest magnification is similar to an Aimpoint, but not quite the same. Instead of having uniform view from both eyes with just a dot floating on the target I have two different images, which do not quite match up. I find it similar to a fixed mag optic, such as an ACOG, where I drive with both eyes, then work on fine sight picture with the aiming eye.

I think that with a little practice I will drive it almost as fast as a dedicated 1X optic.

[Alaskapopo]

I did a lot of shooting last summer trying to decide just what advantages certain optics gave over irons at certain ranges. The drills went like this. At 17 yards from the low ready I shot three IDPA targets with two shots in the body and I came back and put one shot in the head. I repeated this drill 5 times with each optic. I had a Colt 6920 with Laraue throw leaver mounts so swapping optics was a snap.

I moved back to 25 yards and changed the drill to conserve ammo. I fired two rounds into the chest of each IDPA target. The three targets were spaced 6 feet apart and were all 6 feet tall. I did the same thing at 50 and 100 yards. I used IDPA scoring rules to determine the score as the USPSA method is difficult.

Drill 1 at 17 yards.

Average score
1. 8.89 Irons Colt 6920
2. 9.06 Eotech Colt 6920
3. 9.09 AR10 Accupoint
4. 10.1 Accupoint Colt 6920
5. 10.23 CQC (Best score not average) Armalite M15
6. 10.49 AK 47

Frankly I was surprised to see the Irons beat the Eotech at this range. I did not have enough ammo to shoot the Leupold CQC for 5 strings so its score may be scewed.

These are the scores from a friend of mine on Drill one. He is a faster shooter than me. B class vs C class.

1. 7.58 Accupoint Colt 6920
2. 8.14 Irons Colt 6920
3. 8.50 AR10 Accupoint
4. 8.98 Eotech Colt 6920
5. 8.98 Ak 47
6. 9.16 CQC Armalite M15

Drill 2 Me shooting 25 yards

Average Score
1. 4.45 Accupoint Colt 6920
2. 4.5 Fire Site mini reddot Colt 6920
3. 4.56 Eotech Colt 6920
4. 5.06 Small apature Irons Colt 6920
5. 5.14 Large apature Irons Colt 6920
6. 5.45 AK with Ashley sight
7. 5.57 Buis 5.57 Colt 6920 turning the dot off and using the Laraue mounted BUIS that came with this sight the apature is very large.
8. 6.06 AK47
9. 7.3 Wilson with Laser
10. 9.22 Wilson with sights
For giggles I shot the same drill with my Wilson CQB with my Crimson Trace laser on and then with it off. I had over cast skys so I could see the dot easily.


Drill 3 50 yards.

Summary

1. 7.93 Eotech Colt 6920
2. 8.15 Laraue Fast fire Colt 6920
3. 8.47 Accupoint 4x Colt 6920
4. 8.51 Accupoint 1.25 X Colt 6920
5. 10.07 Large Apature Colt 6920
6. 10.39 Small Apature Colt 6920
7. 10.82 AK 47 Ashely

Drill 4 100 yards.

1. 8.30 Eotech Colt 6920
2. 11.59 Irons Colt 6920
3. 13.20 Accupoint 4x Colt 6920
4. 15.69 AK 47


Drill 4 Scott Shooting

Summary
1. Eotech 7.44
2. Accupoint 8.49
3. Irons 9.29

As you can see he kicked my butt.

I learned a lot form doing this. First Irons are just as fast inside of 15 yards but once you get to 25 yards Optics start to shine. I found that the AR kicked the AK's butt especially as the distance increased. I have a new optic to test now. The new Swarvski Optik Z6i. I have it in but don't have it mounted yet.
Later all
The Accupoint is a 1 to 4 power scope.
Pat

[CarlosDJackal]

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13225

I contacted S&B and while they do give a great discount for LE/Military; the price of the scope is still very prohibitive high for an individual. I wonder if my Reserve Unit will allow me to LEGALLY purchase one? This is what I would use it for anyway. :)

[Alaskapopo]

I contacted S&B and while they do give a great discount for LE/Military; the price of the scope is still very prohibitive high for an individual. I wonder if my Reserve Unit will allow me to LEGALLY purchase one? This is what I would use it for anyway. :)

There is nothing legal or illegal about them selling this product to you. Its their company policy to give a leo and military discount. Just give them a call and see what they say.
Pat

[The_Katar]

Shooting with both eyes open on the lowest magnification is similar to an Aimpoint, but not quite the same. Instead of having uniform view from both eyes with just a dot floating on the target I have two different images, which do not quite match up. I find it similar to a fixed mag optic, such as an ACOG, where I drive with both eyes, then work on fine sight picture with the aiming eye.

I think that with a little practice I will drive it almost as fast as a dedicated 1X optic.

I am just starting to screw around with my PMII but what you described matches my own observations so far.

[CarlosDJackal]

There is nothing legal or illegal about them selling this product to you. Its their company policy to give a leo and military discount. Just give them a call and see what they say.
Pat

Pat,

I was talking about purchasing one on the Government's dime for use with whatever M4 my Army Reserve unit issues me. Even with the discount, that scope would eat up a huge chunk of my tax refund or savings account. I'd hate to plop down that much of my hard-earned cash if I can avoid to do so.

[Alaskapopo]

Pat,

I was talking about purchasing one on the Government's dime for use with whatever M4 my Army Reserve unit issues me. Even with the discount, that scope would eat up a huge chunk of my tax refund or savings account. I'd hate to plop down that much of my hard-earned cash if I can avoid to do so.
Oh got you. You can write it off on your taxes if you use it for work. I am writing off my new Swarski. (sorry spelling)
Pat

[kim wroble]

I have had , and still have rifles with Kahles etc scopes , but after looking over the many pages on this 1x4 topic I havn't seen anyone mention the Weaver
1x4.. I have one on my AR that cost $149.00 and I can see no reason to pay more unless you need it to shoot at night...I won't be going out any time soon to shoot anything in the dark at any distance..

[Shihan]

I have had , and still have rifles with Kahles etc scopes , but after looking over the many pages on this 1x4 topic I havn't seen anyone mention the Weaver
1x4.. I have one on my AR that cost $149.00 and I can see no reason to pay more unless you need it to shoot at night...I won't be going out any time soon to shoot anything in the dark at any distance..

Things like this are called a clue:D

[usmcchet9296]

I have a Millet 1x4 on a LaRue mount and while not a "top shelf" scope it is super clear and spot on at 100-200 meters.

http://www.oniva.com/upload/204/5-17-08_gunz_11.JPG

http://www.oniva.com/upload/204/5-17-08_gunz_10.JPG

[usmcgrunt]

I have a Millet 1x4 on a LaRue mount and while not a "top shelf" scope it is super clear and spot on at 100-200 meters.

http://www.oniva.com/upload/204/5-17-08_gunz_11.JPG

http://www.oniva.com/upload/204/5-17-08_gunz_10.JPG

Im going with the same set-up as well! Nice!

Grunt Out!

[Alaskapopo]

I have had , and still have rifles with Kahles etc scopes , but after looking over the many pages on this 1x4 topic I havn't seen anyone mention the Weaver
1x4.. I have one on my AR that cost $149.00 and I can see no reason to pay more unless you need it to shoot at night...I won't be going out any time soon to shoot anything in the dark at any distance..
The quality of the glass on the more expensive scopes is much better meaning clearer. Also I feel that a day light illumiated rectical is a must have which Weaver does not have. You get what you pay for.
Pat

[theJanitor]

I have a Millet 1x4 on a LaRue mount and while not a "top shelf" scope it is super clear and spot on at 100-200 meters.

http://www.oniva.com/upload/204/5-17-08_gunz_11.JPG

http://www.oniva.com/upload/204/5-17-08_gunz_10.JPG

have you tried to move that flip-cap to the bottom or to the right side (ejection port side)? i find that it helps me see around the scope, when i'm not looking through the scope. YMMV

[usmcchet9296]

have you tried to move that flip-cap to the bottom or to the right side (ejection port side)? i find that it helps me see around the scope, when i'm not looking through the scope. YMMV

Yeah if the fit hits the shan I would be right now the lil happy face gives me a warm fuzzy feeling when I look at it :)

[K9-Bob]

Burris offers a law enforcement discount on their scopes. The XTR-14 without the Fastfire is $463.30 shipped. At that price I might just take the plunge and try the Burris.:D

[YukonGlocker]

Burris offers a law enforcement discount on their scopes. The XTR-14 without the Fastfire is $463.30 shipped. At that price I might just take the plunge and try the Burris.:D

Where are you ordering this from?

[Tokarev]

Where are you ordering this from?

You can order directly from Burris and get the LE price. There's an order form to fill out and they limit you to two optics a year, IIRC.

The discount is also offered to firemen, scout leaders, military personnel, etc.

[YukonGlocker]

Thank you.

[rob_s]

From skimming the thread, it would appear that the first choice in this type of optic would be the S&B, with the Nightforce coming in second?

[thmpr]

From skimming the thread, it would appear that the first choice in this type of optic would be the S&B, with the Nightforce coming in second?

If budget was not an issue.....yes.

[Hootiewho]

From skimming the thread, it would appear that the first choice in this type of optic would be the S&B, with the Nightforce coming in second?

Having owned a Nightforce 1-4x and currently owning a Short Dot, I would say you are correct.

The Nightforce is a great scope. If I had to do it over and buy another I would get the 2.5-10x Nightforce and use a side mounted small red dot. I think the Close range mildot is the way to go with the Nightforce, as the FC-2 covers up too much target at distance.

I cannot say enough how much I love my Short Dot. It is heavy and bulky but it has no rival in my opinion. The more I use it, the more I like it and using the dot on the 2.5-3x range is very fast at moving targets at distance. It really is a do-all optic. They are expensive, but it kills me when people go on about the cost of a Short Dot, but then buy a $1000 ACOG, then put a side mounted T1 ($500-600) on the gun and end up with just about as much weight and $ into optics as if they had just bought a Short Dot.

With the dollar falling against European currency, Schmidt & Bender optics will do nothing but increase in their value over time, making them a good investment as well. From their website:

The good news? Even with our price increase, Schmidt & Bender scopes still represent the highest quality, most desirable optics available anywhere in the world...and as you know, the very finest of any product always delivers superior long-term value and return. Every Schmidt & Bender riflescope is an investment for a lifetime; amortized over the decades a Schmidt & Bender will serve you, it remains an intelligent purchase indeed.

If you wisely purchased Schmidt & Bender scopes in the past, their values continue to grow. At the time, you may have thought they were very expensive...now, they look like quite a bargain. Chances are, ten or 20 years from now we will all be saying "I wish I'd bought a Schmidt & Bender back in '08, when they were really cheap!"

[Tokarev]

Info on the Burris XTR-14: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=62691&hl=burris

[Alaskapopo]

I would have to say the Swarovski 1-6 has the short dot beat and that is why I bought it. But that is just my opinion.
Pat

[sewvacman]

What would be some of the better mount and ring combinations for the Burris xtr or the trijicon t-21. Assuming no front or rear sight is mounted on weapon how high should the rings be for best overall use. (target shooting, hunting and CQB)

[LOKNLOD]

What would be some of the better mount and ring combinations for the Burris xtr or the trijicon t-21. Assuming no front or rear sight is mounted on weapon how high should the rings be for best overall use. (target shooting, hunting and CQB)

For the Trijicon TR-21 you'll need either the Larue SPR-E (LT-139-1") or the ADM Recon-X (1"). It has very long eye relief, and needs the extended mounts to push out over the handguards.

No experience with the Burris. Edit: But in the above link they refernce using the Larue SPR-E so I'd imagine either of the above mounts would be well suited as well. I don't know what diameter the Burris tube is, so it might need the 30mm mounts instead of the 1".

[sewvacman]

Now this would be going on an LMT with an MRP upper. Do the same rules apply?

[LOKNLOD]

Now this would be going on an LMT with an MRP upper. Do the same rules apply?

With the MRP (or a Vltor VIS), you could use one of the non-extended mounts, since it's a true monolithic upper and you could mount the optic as far forward as you wanted without losing stability. I'd still recommend the Larue or ADM in an non-extended mount. There are other opotions out there I'm sure, but I don't know enough to suggest one, and I don't think it gets any "better" than the LT and ADM mounts. Either should be serve you well. I'll mention that ADM are board sponsors and a little cheaper, I think ;) That said, mine's in a Larue mount...but not because of any problem with the ADM offering.

On the other hand, if you used the the extended mount, moving it to another rifle without a monolithic upper would be an optionlater down the road. Maybe that's a benefit, maybe not.

[POF.Ops]

have you tried to move that flip-cap to the bottom or to the right side (ejection port side)? i find that it helps me see around the scope, when i'm not looking through the scope. YMMV

What brand and size scope covers are those?

So far I am happy with my Millett DMS-1. I would have liked a a S&B, Nightforce, Burris XTR but I'm on a budget.

http://byfiles.storage.live.com/y1pvblfjZRhmXUSyvu25jCBZdcJOW21R-Pc17mMNbpKMgmoAnjjB18GwIN1e-efAkVm

[MerQ]

Has anyone tried or heard any news about the Zeiss 1.1x-4x scope? I saw it on their wesite while looking at stuff the other day. It's pretty pricey (like most Zeiss stuff) but I was curious as to how it performed as a military type optic.

[HLDefender]

I just odered the TR21 - German #4 / LaRue mount combo. Should have it in 2 weeks and I'll post up a review with pics . Plan on using it for three gun and SHTF duty....

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=232

HLD...

[target4fun]

I am going to use a millet, for the money they cant be beat.

[target4fun]

Where were yall getting the millet blems from? Anyone got a link?

[Damascus]

Some people were asking about the Burris XTR 1-4x24 optic on this thread a few pages back, and I just wanted to add this, so a future 1-4x scope buyer will know.
I tried a Burris XTR-14 last week, and while it had a good reticle, and good glass, the rest of the scope wasn't worth it's $600 price tag. It appeared to be a "true" 1x optic, as far as I could tell, I could not tell any different between eyes looking at it on 1x. The reticle is very small, but with the illumination on, is easy to see. The illumination is also visible in daylight, probably not as much as a S&B Short Dot, but still, very well. The illumination adjustment dial, located on the left side of the adjustment turret is hard to turn, and can't be done with gloves. The dial's cap is "fatter" than the adjustment lever underneath it, so you have to be careful not to un-screw the cap while twisting the Ill. lever... hence, it would be hard with gloves. The scope is also not small, if you're wanting a shorter 1-4x scope. Also, this scope doesn't have a "power ring".. to zoom in/out from 1-4x, you have to turn the entire eyebell. This is fine, although when it's on anything but 2.5x, the big white "Burris" logo is not on top, it's on one of the sides - which looks sort of weird. May bother some people. The windage and elevation adjustment dials is where the scope looses it's luster. If Burris would install target turrets on it, it would be a LOT better, but instead, it comes with Burris' "hunter" knobs... which is a metal screw, with a slot in the center for a penny or screwdriver. Around that, is a plastic ring, which is supposed to be there so you could turn it to "0" when you're scope is zeroed... unfortunately, this is a useless feature, since the plastic rings on mine almost spun freely, and wouldn't stay on "0" under a high-movement situation.. the one on the elevation turret actually would move up and down about 1/16".. These adjustments are also the reason I sent my scope back... my windage adjustments would give an audible click, and seemed to be precise, although very hard to turn. The elevation adjustment would only click in the "down" direction, and wouldn't click at all in the "up" direction. I figured that it was because there was too much grease/lube or silicone for waterproofing on the gears, and would work itself out. I turned the dial back and forth, slowly, several times, hoping it would start clicking once the grease got spread out, instead though, it completely disconnected itself from whatever it was adjusting, and would then spin freely, with no resistance! I contacted Burris, and they told me they'd send me a call tag (so I could ship it on their dime), and mail me a replacement. I advised them of my time situation, and the next day, they sent me another e-mail advising me to send it back to Midway, instead of them, because they were out of stock on the XTR-14's... ha. Basically, I would not recommend this scope to anyone, unless Burris drops the price tag down to around $250 - $300 max, and puts XTR tactical turrets on it (all the other XTR's have the target turrets, the XTR-14 is just a EuroDiamond 1-4x24 with the letters "XTR" painted on the side)... The origional thread I posted about this, with some picture links, is here (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=17016) .. So, now, I am saving up to buy an ACOG. To anyone considering a Burris XTR-14, I would suggest getting a Trijicon Accupoint instead, or even a Leupold VXII 1-4x. The XTR was designed to compete with the Leupold Mark4 MR/T 1.5-5x24, Nightforce NXS 1-4x24, and perhaps even the (yeah right :D) S&B Short Dot. I believe they failed, miserably. They can't even compete with the Accupoint, and may not even outperform the Millet DMS-1!

[R Moran]

Also, this scope doesn't have a "power ring".. to zoom in/out from 1-4x, you have to turn the entire eyebell. This is fine, although when it's on anything but 2.5x, the big white "Burris" logo is not on top, it's on one of the sides - which looks sort of weird. May bother some people.

Whats worse, the flip up scope cover will turn with it. Probably why they don't ship with them.

Bob

[mattpittinger]

I've gotta say I'm gonna go with the Millet as well for the money you just cant beat it. They are clean, clear, simple, and bullet proff.

[UPSguy]

I've gotta say I'm gonna go with the Millet as well for the money you just cant beat it. They are clean, clear, simple, and bullet proff.

Just curious, are you the same person that posted on another forum about how great these are that actually worked for Millet? Just wondering since he didn't "proof" read very well either.

[mattpittinger]

No I am not the guy that posted on the other thread. I do not not work for Millet, I just like the scope.

[Belloc]

I tried the Accupoint on an AK and while I found the optic to be first rate, the AK side rail mount really did not allow for many position options thus I could never find that "sweet" spot. Once I get to 30 posts I'll be listing it in the market forums.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y276/Belloc/IMG_5742.jpg

Great clarity but too much eye relief at 1.25 to use it as a red dot style optic on an AK that has very limited mounting position options.

[HLDefender]

Finally got the new German reticle version. Will give a review soon...

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/2008_0915accupoint0065.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/2008_0915accupoint0060.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/2008_0918accupoint0075.jpg

HLD...

[Damascus]

That's a sweet setup! Very nice little DMR style stick.
When you do your review, post some accuracy results with that bad boy ;)
Also, be sure to include your thoughts on longer range precision shots using the thicker #4 reticle. I wish they'd offer an ACOG style reticle for these, or something with some sort of quick ranging reticle. At least they're offering the mil-dot now for the bigger Accupoints.
Congrats!

[Galliente]

Grant ...I appreciate the info on the sights....Do you know if the Elcan Spectre DR is worth a didly?

[Resq47]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3204/2993478789_91bfb9d741_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3218/2994334636_619c1788e8.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3149/2993478243_71252d1bd2_b.jpg

How about the not-yet out 1-4x Accupoint? (Note, not 1.5-4x)

It's worth waiting a month or two in my opinion...

[Striker6]

Finally got the new German reticle version. Will give a review soon...

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/2008_0915accupoint0065.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/2008_0915accupoint0060.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/2008_0918accupoint0075.jpg

HLD...

HLD, any chance you could put a quick review together yet? I am very interested in ordering the same package, but I would love to hear any of your opinions or experiences with it. Thanks.

[LOKNLOD]

How about the not-yet out 1-4x Accupoint? (Note, not 1.5-4x)

It's worth waiting a month or two in my opinion...

Umm...more info please?

It looks like it has a lot less eye relief than the current models. And is that a green fiber optic?

[DM-SC]

How about the not-yet out 1-4x Accupoint? (Note, not 1.5-4x)

It's worth waiting a month or two in my opinion...

Looks very interesting!

[Jim_M]

These super duper optics are amazing. I can't spend that now since the build is "absorbing" my mad money at the moment. My flattop will have a Weaver V3 and some sort of one piece mount (not LaRue :(). Maybe a Armalite or ? No iron sights either, maybe a nice BUIS set someday.

Jim

[mpardun]

I would have to say the Swarovski 1-6 has the short dot beat and that is why I bought it. But that is just my opinion.
Pat

clarity, FOV, CD brighness in daylight...and a true 1-6x (can reach out a little farther).

I love mine, but $2k's alot for a scope. In this climate I can't help think I should sell it and get another Noveske.

[nickdrak]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3204/2993478789_91bfb9d741_b.jpg
How about the not-yet out 1-4x Accupoint? (Note, not 1.5-4x)

It's worth waiting a month or two in my opinion...

:eek:Ohhh SHIT! There goes my retro check!!! MORE INFO PLEASE!!!

[uscbigdawg]

Grant - Give a hard look at the Meopta with the K-Dot reticle. Very, VERY nice glass and you can easily drill targets at real distances.

Rich

[Doc Stewie]

Let me start off by saying that this thread has some excellent information and should give even the most experienced shooters some things to think about.

I have gone through a steady transition of sights/optics since I started shooting rifles. I learned to shoot on irons with the M-14 platform in the civilian marksmanship program as a youth. I still enjoy shooting with irons however technology has provided us with much better options for the large majority of situations a tactician, competitor, armed civilian, or recreational shooter may find themselves in. I still maintain irons on all my weapons as I believe it is intelligent to plan for the worst and hope for the best.

When I first started looking for an optic to go on my personal rifle I looked at various options available at the time. Basically I could go with an Aimpoint, Eotech, or trijicon/Acog. I tried out a number of options and settled on the Aimpoint for a number of reasons: Price, Durability, Capability. The aimpoint worked well for all distances I expected to shoot, had exceptional battery life and construction, and was relatively inexpensive. The Eotechs were not tough enough nor did they have the battery life, the trijicon/Acogs were expensive, not as capable to me at all ranges, and as I used a number of them I didnt like the coloring of the trijicons (reflex). As I put more and more optics on personal guns I consistently stayed with the Aimpoint a it was what I had thousands of rounds through it and it worked well for me. I still had opportunities to use other optics from time to time and really couldnt justify any sort of change, my initial setup kept me quite content for a number of years.

Fast forward to my first job as a contractor and I got myself a new Aimpoint in Larue cantilever mount to use on my work gun, based on the mission I also purchased an Aimpoint 3x magnifier to handle the longer range targets. I ran this setup (which can be seen below) for my first 7 months or so. It worked fairly well, cost wasnt too significant for what I was getting when I compared it to other options and the durability and battery life was definitely spot on. I beat that setup around quite a bit and it shows a little wear but still functions flawlessly. Shortly before going on leave at around month 6 I started wanting just a little more magnification and I shopped around, did a little research and ended up with a NightForce 2.5-10 mildot, with a mini red dot mounted in a larue mount. This set up worked very well also however I did not get to really push it as much as I would have liked. I still use them optic a fair amount at home for practice and it goes in the bag depending on my planned deployment.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/Thirdworldmedic/M4.jpg

The NightForce 2.5-10 is a very good intermediate and long range option. Couple it with a mini red dot and you have improved its up close capability however it is not an Aimpoint and requires significant practice and training to transition quickly to the mini red dot in close up situations. The 2.5-10 has excellent glass, illumination, and eye relief. To me the mil dot reticle is too fine but that just be from my eyes becoming more and more tired from spending too much time on a computer. I find a very small amount of distortion at the edges on 10x but it does not interfere with the overall use and disappears at roughly 9x. Part of me wishes that it had exposed target turrets versus the capped windage and elevation and another part of me feels it is unnecessary. Maybe I am trying to make it into too much of a scope. To me the primary downside of this optic is the battery life. When I initial put this optic on my work gun I left the illumination on and it was dead by the end of the week. In the past I have always left my Aimpoints on and it had become habit. The weaknesses of the mini red dot must also be evaluated with this as it is an integral part of the set up. I have a trijicon mini red dot, I have not tested all the current mini red dots, so take that into account. The trijicon's body is made of plastic and while mine has beat up a bit it is nowhere near as tough as my Aimpoint or even the NightForce. Mine is mounted with the Larue half ring platform. This allows for an easy transition from scope to red dot but causes the optic to stick out from the profile of the gun exposing it to excessive abuses. I carried this for a rotation and continue to stick it in my footlocker when I think I may need to cover greater distances but the mini red dot's durability concerns me (although I have yet to break mine, YET). Another issue with it is the on/off control of the dot. The optic has a light sensor built in that adjusts the level of the red dot to the ambient light. That is all fine and good until you get into a super low/no light condition and your red dot is now gone. As well if you lose the included cover (fell off during a mortar attack) your mini red dot will stay on all the time and kill your battery. All things to be considered. I used this optic for the remainder of my time on that project and went back to an Aimpoint when my mission dictated more close up threats.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/Thirdworldmedic/NXS6.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/Thirdworldmedic/NXS2.jpg


Shortly before returning home I placed an order for an upper with Wes at MSTN and wanted to put a new optic on it. I had good luck with my 2.5-10 with mini red dot but wanted to try out an Acop with mini red dot. Through talking with Wes he encouraged me to go with a NightForce 1-4 instead of the Acog. I had planned to be home for a fair amount of time and wanted to experiment with some of these set ups. When Wes suggested the NightForce it kinda threw a wrench in things as I had not researched it at all and decided to wait. I visited a buddy of mine who had a NightForce 1-4 and shot his and was immediately impressed. Plans to stay home were quashed after I received an offer for a gig I couldnt refuse came up and I left for work again. Once back at work I contacted Wes to have him put together a NightForce 1-4 package for me and I was going to give it a solid work over. Ends up a buddy of mine on my team got a hankering for a S&B SD and our optics arrived roughly at the same time. Over the last few months we have put a fair number of rounds down range and found a number of positives and negatives about both. Initially I was not very impressed with the brightness of the reticle in the NightForce and honestly I was a bit put off. I pressed on and figured I would give it a solid chance out on the range and see how it worked out. What I found was that the optic was exceptionally fast and pretty damn close to 1x at the low end and perfectly clear on the high end and the reticle remained completely crisp all the way through. The reticle, for me at least, does not need to be illuminated in bright ambient conditions as the black on brightly illuminated surfaces is plenty of contrast. What I do to prevent losing my reticle is when it is go time I turn my illumination on and leave it on whether it is day or night. If I am inside I can see my reticle because it is illuminated and remains perfectly crisp, if I step outside into mid days sun I can see it because it is contrasted. If I am pointing against a dark surface in full light the illumination is visible and provides the contrast necessary to pick out my reticle. An easy way to think of this is if I am pointing my weapon at a vehicle at night and I sight in on the headlight I will see a black dot and a black ring around the dot, if I sight in on the grill between the headlights I will see a red dot an red ring. No matter what it will be perfectly crisp (something I have missed in illuminated optics that I always loved in Irons). Something I noticed with the Shortdot was that the dot became distorted and bloomed on higher settings similar to my beloved Aimpoint. This is not necessarily horrible but I prefer the illumnation of the NightForce for the crispness. As discussed earlier about the 2.5-10 the scope is well built, and the glass is excellent. The glass is very "bright" which has been a concern with a 1-4x optic for me as I was concerned about light collection ability in low light situations. This has proved to not be an issue from close up range on 1x to distance on 4x. I am running a SF Scout as my weapon light and that provides plenty of light for use with this optic. Picture was taken while I was still running an X300. Something else I like about the NightForce is that I can use the 6 o'clock position as my reference point when shooting at CQB distances to adjust for muzzle offset (obviously this is only for surgical "hostage" shots)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/Thirdworldmedic/nxslarue.jpg



My short term assessment of the Shortdot is that it is an excellent optic with A LOT of features. While I had not messed with one much before I am seriously considering getting one now to experiment with more. Unfortunately we just dont have a suitable range to push its limits to where it is going to shine. It is robust and heavy duty, one of the first comments I made was how cool the turrets and the illumination controls were. To me I almost feel like the NightForce shines up close and the SD shines at distance (due to the graduated reticle) but I am even hesitant to say that based on the minimal time I have with the Shortdot. As expected the glass is excellent and it is very close to 1x but I dont know how much closer it is versus the NightForce.

Some other opinion on stuff people may or may not want to hear:

I have also used a Meopta K-dot and it worked fairly well but I much prefer both the Shortdot and NightForce for durability and capability. I purchased one for my father last year for Christmas and he likes it and reports that it is still working perfectly. Just not what I would take to a gunfight if I had to choose.

Rail mounted mini red dots/aimpoint T-1s: To me this is not an option for a working gun. The mini red dot on my 2.5-10 is placed to allow me to make a rapid shot with minimal movement to transition to the sight. I am compromising only minimally when considering how streamline my gun is. Placing an optic out on a rail as I have seen some competitors do increase the level of movement for transition and worsens the clutter factor on the gun. Might be all fine and good when going through a 3 gun match but is not going to work when moving in and out of vehicles or crawling through a scuttle hole to get up onto a roof top OP or into a tower.

Having a 1x optic and a 1-4x on quick change mounts and changing in a fight: bad idea no matter how fast you are with your mag changes;). You will not have the time to transition like you think you will, so while you are screwing with your gun your team mates will be covering your slack with whatever system they have that works.

Ultimate optic: true 1x like an Aimpoint at the low end, crisp clear 4x on the high end. Reticle like the Shortdot with graduations visible on magnification, however the coarse section of the vertical (lower) crosshair would be spaced for muzzle offset at close ranges and large enough to be visible on 1x. Turrets like the Shortdot but lower profile. Battery life and brightness like an Aimpoint. Size/weight: smaller and lighter than Shortdot or NightForce. All this in an indestructible package waterproof to same level as my Comp M2.



If I was going to buy 5 1-4x optics tomorrow what would I get? NightForce 1-4x

As I buy more and more gear I find that A LOT of it ends up in the pile of crap I dont use and I find more and more that I like a basic streamlined gun with out a lot of crap hanging off it. I prefer my vert grips out front and my lights far forward too. I prefer clicky caps over tape switches. Guns with magnified optics get fold down BUIS (at least the rear) and guns with 1x optics get at least a fixed front. I like the KAC 600m rear sight but didnt pack it this rotation, it is sitting at home on my noveske and I am back to using a Troy.

Hope that at least helps fill in some of the many gaps that are out there with the 1-4x category of optics.

DOC OUT

[St.Michael]

Have there been anymore workings with the Accupoints? Any cons yet with them? Is the military using other scopes by trijicons then the acogs?

Also whoever was using the DMS is it still holding up for you?

[C4IGrant]

Grant - Give a hard look at the Meopta with the K-Dot reticle. Very, VERY nice glass and you can easily drill targets at real distances.

Rich

Looked at them awhile ago. They are ok I think.


C4

[C4IGrant]

Have there been anymore workings with the Accupoints? Any cons yet with them? Is the military using other scopes by trijicons then the acogs?

Also whoever was using the DMS is it still holding up for you?

Naval EOD has run the Accupoints TR21 for years.

Trijicon is finally going to release an Accupoint that is NOT geared towards the hunting community. It is called the TR24.

Here is the specs on it: http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Trijicon/TR24%20Spec%20Sheet.pdf




C4

[HOPLOETHOS]

I concur regarding NF Scopes. For the money they are tough to beat for the value and quality they offer.


The 1X4X24 w/ Zero S. & FC-2 Ret are GTG for CQB and intermediate distances.

The 2.5X10 is excellent choice if your eyes are faltering or longer distances of engagements are needed.

There are numerous individuals whom have used "NF" Optics w/ great success in OEF & OIF theatres.

[Dave L.]

Naval EOD has run the Accupoints TR21 for years.

Trijicon is finally going to release an Accupoint that is NOT geared towards the hunting community. It is called the TR24.

Here is the specs on it: http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Trijicon/TR24%20Spec%20Sheet.pdf




C4

That scope has my attention. Any ideas on price and release dates?

[C4IGrant]

That scope has my attention. Any ideas on price and release dates?


No idea on cost or when it will be available.


C4

[Steve]

No idea on cost or when it will be available.


C4

That scope is sitting on my carbine as we speak.
it will be seen and released at shotshow

should be ready by or shortly after shot show.. there is a good thread of it here on this board i posted about with PIC's

should be in the 800 price range i would gather...

[C4IGrant]

That scope is sitting on my carbine as we speak.
it will be seen and released at shotshow

should be ready by or shortly after shot show.. there is a good thread of it here on this board i posted about with PIC's

should be in the 800 price range i would gather...


Thanks Steve for the info.



C4

[SeriousStudent]

That scope is sitting on my carbine as we speak.
it will be seen and released at shotshow

should be ready by or shortly after shot show.. there is a good thread of it here on this board i posted about with PIC's

should be in the 800 price range i would gather...

Steve, thanks very much for the heads-up. Do you know if that $800 the MSRP, or the anticipated street price?

I'm getting ready to spend about a grand on a scope and mount. I've already planned to get the Larue mount. This scope would fill the bill nicely, and stay in the budget.

Grant, I think I am going to end up on another of your pre-order lists. :D

[hifiguy]

I am definately antsy for this scope to come out. I had been saving up to get a Short Dot, but this scope looks like it will meet my needs exactly. Put me on the list, Grant.:D

[St.Michael]

By comparison do you guys think the new TR24 is going to be better then the ones they have out now? I am just curious as to how much better it might be. I have no experience with either so I wouldn't really have any basis to compare on.

[Steve]

Guy's heads up..

first off i dont work for trijicon..second im guessing the cost based on conversations with some that do..

I wont say, i had direct input on this scope but having been training some of the trijicon guys on this project for a bit over a year now, and i really pushed for this glass to happen. in green yet.. i got my wish

this scope is leaps and bounds over the old version its cripser cleaner brighter and more FOV and ER its is going to replace my cluttered SB reticle..

thisscope has been my answer to many things thought the triangle is usable it isnt ideal to ME. to some it is.. i would prefer a Dot similar to the compact acog but one step at a time.. this scope will slam a lot of faces at shotshow. it is about as perfect as perfect gets..

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3218/2994334636_619c1788e8.jpg

[St.Michael]

did i miss where you said the cost? lol:confused:

[Steve]

did i miss where you said the cost? lol:confused:

Yes..

based on some contacts I would gather it to be in the 800 range. maybe less but again i dont work for them... but at that price i would and will be buying 2 of them

[Gutshot John]

Are the triangle reticled versions BAC? or no?

I didn't see BAC listed on Grant's spec sheet.

I love my 1" model.

[St.Michael]

Are the triangle reticled versions BAC? or no?

I didn't see BAC listed on Grant's spec sheet.

I love my 1" model.

BAC?

Do you think that the price will drop a bit after a while? Or do scopes usually just stay the same always? Anyone buy the Laure package?

[Damascus]

BAC?

Do you think that the price will drop a bit after a while? Or do scopes usually just stay the same always? Anyone buy the Laure package?

BAC - Bindon Aiming Concept. It's a feature found on some Trijicon ACOG and Accupoint models, allows aiming with both eyes open (somewhat). The price will either drop or get higher, all depending on how popular it is, how well it holds up over time, just simple supply and demand. And LaRue package?? This scope isn't on the market for sale yet. The regular 1.5-4x Accupoint is out, but it has a 1" tube - this new one has a 30mm tube, and is a true 1x, not 1.5. Also has a green reticle instead of red or amber. Has other features too, but those are the biggest changes/improvements. You can get a normal Accupoint TR21 1.5-4x for around $550 new (http://www.4scopes.com/accupoint.htm). For your shooting needs, from what you've told me, you'd be fine with one of the Accupoints that are available now, the TR21 (Amber) and TR21R (Red). You can also get it with the #4 german style duplex reticle.

[ghideon]

Aside from it being a 30mm tube (vs 1inch for the TR21 series), are there any other serious features to look at? The green reticle is certainly hawt, but I am wondering if I can justify a new optic when I just purchased the TR21.

[St.Michael]

Aside from it being a 30mm tube (vs 1inch for the TR21 series), are there any other serious features to look at? The green reticle is certainly hawt, but I am wondering if I can justify a new optic when I just purchased the TR21.

Yea that's what I was saying. If I have a TR21 now are there features worth buying a brand new one for?

Damascus thanks for the info man. :cool:

[G34Shooter]

Yea that's what I was saying. If I have a TR21 now are there features worth buying a brand new one for?

Damascus thanks for the info man. :cool:



Some people want true 1x

[St.Michael]

I am no where near a pro or anything, but is it THAT big of a deal? Just wondering. Or is it just preference?

[G34Shooter]

I am no where near a pro or anything, but is it THAT big of a deal? Just wondering. Or is it just preference?


Since I've been debating on multiple 1x Aimpoint models (T-1,ML3 etc..) with the addition of of a 3x down the line, having this is similar to having both in one for half the price of a S&B though it might not be as fast as a T-1 at CQB distances.

[St.Michael]

I don't know I might just have to fall on the Triji TR21. Just can't decide.

[nickdrak]

Im definately in on one of the TR24's Im just not sure which color triangle....
What benefits does the Green reticle offer over the Red???

[Gutshot John]

The 30mm tube is worthwhile assuming some models have the BAC. If not I'll stay with what I have. I'm used to it and it works well.

I can't say enough about the TR-21, it's damn accurate and functional. It's actually a 1.25x and you can use it as an OEG at CQB distance and is quite fast, definitely faster than irons, but it remains a hunting scope design.

Nothing is going to be as fast as an Aimpoint at CQB, but the TR-21 is a bit more versatile, adding the TR-24 to their line is an attempt to appeal to the tactical market sites like this one represents. I'd definitely add this new model.

The 1x option is nice, but that's not what I'd buy it for. As for reticle, there is a lot of talk about reticles washing-out in bright daylight, but there is a fix built right into the scope...close the fiber-optic cover. It turns the reticle a nice dark brown/black.

[St.Michael]

Yea I am really leaning towards that Tr21. I am just about ready to "pull the trigger" on it. :)

[LOKNLOD]

I think the most interesting feature of the new TR is the eye relief...i haven't compared the spec sheets but based on the pictures it sure looks a lot shorter. I love my TR21 with the only exception being the eye relief is too long, especially at low mag.

I can't wait to see the TR24 at SHOT.

[LOKNLOD]

Yea I am really leaning towards that Tr21. I am just about ready to "pull the trigger" on it. :)

Honestly...since it's close, wait till the -24 hits the market, or at least until it gets some press at SHOT. Even if you still want the 21, you'll see some good deals on TR21 packages pop up from people who either need/want some of the new features or just feel the need to always have the newest thing.

I may even be one of them ;)

[St.Michael]

Honestly...since it's close, wait till the -24 hits the market, or at least until it gets some press at SHOT. Even if you still want the 21, you'll see some good deals on TR21 packages pop up from people who either need/want some of the new features or just feel the need to always have the newest thing.

I may even be one of them ;)

Very good idea man. Thanks. I wont have the money saved for another month so that just might work out in my favor.

[olds442tyguy]

For the record, I can't tell any differences between my shot quickness at any distance from a 1.5X to a true 1X variable. Some people act like it makes them go blind, but I think it's mostly due to hype.

[YukonGlocker]

Naval EOD has run the Accupoints TR21 for years.

Trijicon is finally going to release an Accupoint that is NOT geared towards the hunting community. It is called the TR24.

Here is the specs on it: http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Trijicon/TR24%20Spec%20Sheet.pdf




C4

That spec reads that the TR24 is parallax free.
Is that at any range?

[Doc Stewie]

For the record, I can't tell any differences between my shot quickness at any distance from a 1.5X to a true 1X variable. Some people act like it makes them go blind, but I think it's mostly due to hype.

It not just about speed but also using the optic in non traditional shooting positions when you may not have a cheek weld or nose to the charging handle.

DOC

[olds442tyguy]

It not just about speed but also using the optic in non traditional shooting positions when you may not have a cheek weld or nose to the charging handle.

DOC
I've never encountered any problems.

[Doc Stewie]

I've never encountered any problems.

I guess I feel it necessary to ask, what non-traditional shooting positions do you train or use regularly? What is your normal use of the weapon so your statement can be qualified.

Thanks,

DOC

[YukonGlocker]

That spec reads that the TR24 is parallax free.
Is that at any range?
That spec reads that the TR24 is parallax free.
Is that at any range?

[olds442tyguy]

I guess I feel it necessary to ask, what non-traditional shooting positions do you train or use regularly? What is your normal use of the weapon so your statement can be qualified.

Thanks,

DOC
I once hung upside down from a kitchen pantry and made a shot at 45 degrees from 300 yards out, and I once initiated a CQB entry whilst doing a back flip. :D Seriously, I rarely use non traditional shooting positions, but have used a TR21 in some awkward, but not severely limiting positions.

Can you recommend some shooting positions that would test this for me? TIA.

[olds442tyguy]

I guess I feel it necessary to ask, what non-traditional shooting positions do you train or use regularly? What is your normal use of the weapon so your statement can be qualified.

Thanks,

DOC
I once hung upside down from a kitchen pantry and made a shot at 45 degrees from 300 yards out, and I once initiated a CQB entry whilst doing a back flip. :D Seriously, I rarely use non traditional shooting positions, but have used a TR21 in some awkward but not severely limiting positions.

Can you recommend some shooting positions that would test this for me? TIA.