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samnev
11-01-12, 11:22
I am torn between the longevity of the Noveske chrome lined barrel and the accuracy of the stainless steel barrel. The Noveske site recommends the stainless for accuracy and the chromed barrel for longevity.
I'd appreciate any input on real world accuracy from actual users of the two types of barrels.
TIA

markm
11-01-12, 11:30
You'll probably realize some improved accuracy with the SS barrel. If accuracy is important to you, I'd go White Oak Armament. SS barrels hold up fine.

I run Chrome lined for most everything because I'm not running good enough optics to need an accurate barrel.

samnev
11-01-12, 12:13
Thanks for the reply, I am wondering if the improvement in accuracy is substantial enough to go with the stainless barrel.

markm
11-01-12, 12:18
Thanks for the reply, I am wondering if the improvement in accuracy is substantial enough to go with the stainless barrel.

I've not found this to be the case in the hanful of SS barrels I've shot by the maker in question.

samnev
11-01-12, 12:32
I forgot to ask the above question. I like the monolithic N4 over the non monolithic because the rail is shorter and seem more compact . Any preferences by end users of either model?
Thanks

samnev
11-01-12, 12:34
I've not found this to be the case in the hanful of SS barrels I've shot by the maker in question.

Thanks for your input markm.

PS, I've decided to go with the Noveske over the LWRC.

OnPoint
11-01-12, 12:35
If it helps I recently checked into the same issue and was advised by Noveske CS that their chrome lined barrels average 1 moa while SS barrels average .5 moa. Went with the CL.

Ironman8
11-01-12, 12:37
I forgot to ask the above question. I like the monolithic N4 over the non monolithic because the rail is shorter and seem more compact . Any preferences by end users of either model?
Thanks

I'm guessing you mean the Vltor VIS mono upper/rail?

The length of the rail really has nothing to do with it being monolithic or not. Monolithic has the advantage due to the continuous rail and is (supposedly) stronger than using a barrel nut attached rail.

Ironman8
11-01-12, 12:43
If it helps I recently checked into the same issue and was advised by Noveske CS that their chrome lined barrels average 1 moa while SS barrels average .5 moa. Went with the CL.

This is totally dependent on the ammunition.

I loaded up some Barnes TSX for hunting, and am getting about an average of 1.1" 5-shot group in my 16" Noveske SS barrel. If I took the best 4 from yesterday's group, I would be at .64". This is also with a stock GI trigger, so if I ever get around to putting a Geissele in, I'm sure I could be sub-moa with that load. I need to see what kind of groups I can get out of this same ammo in my Noveske 14.5" CL barrel...

With SMK's or Noslers, I expect to be closer to half MOA.

Also, I'm sure that I could tweak a little more consistency (= accuracy) out of my reloading process, which would help some as well.

samnev
11-01-12, 12:48
I'm guessing you mean the Vltor VIS mono upper/rail?

The length of the rail really has nothing to do with it being monolithic or not. Monolithic is the advantage due to the continuous rail and is (supposedly) stronger than using a barrel nut attached rail.

Yes I understand that. It seems that the N4 Afghan with the Vltor VIS 9" monolithic upper is the one I am asking about. The other upper offered on 3 other N4's is the Forged Vltor MUR upper receiver featuring an anti-rotation interface with the hand guard which appear to have much longer rails.

Ironman8
11-01-12, 12:52
Yes I understand that. It seems that the N4 Afghan with the Vltor VIS 9" monolithic upper is the one I am asking about. The other upper offered on 3 other N4's is the Forged Vltor MUR upper receiver featuring an anti-rotation interface with the hand guard which appear to have much longer rails.

Just looked at it. That is because it has the SB that needs to clear outside the VIS rail. The others are either standard lo-pro GBs or the SWS rail with SB cutout, thus can afford a longer rail.

What do you want to do with this rifle? What is the purpose of the build?

samnev
11-01-12, 12:53
This is totally dependent on the ammunition.

I loaded up some Barnes TSX for hunting, and am getting about an average of 1.1" 5-shot group in my 16" Noveske SS barrel. If I took the best 4 from yesterday's group, I would be at .64". This is also with a stock GI trigger, so if I ever get around to putting a Geissele in, I'm sure I could be sub-moa with that load. I need to see what kind of groups I can get out of this same ammo in my Noveske 14.5" CL barrel...

With SMK's or Noslers, I expect to be closer to half MOA.

Also, I'm sure that I could tweak a little more consistency (= accuracy) out of my reloading process, which would help some as well.

Thanks for the reply. If you expect to get essentially the same results or even close I'd go with the CL barrel. I also only use Sierra SMK's in my AR's and TRG 22.

samnev
11-01-12, 13:05
Just looked at it. That is because it has the SB that needs to clear outside the VIS rail. The others are either standard lo-pro GBs or the SWS rail with SB cutout, thus can afford a longer rail.

What do you want to do with this rifle? What is the purpose of the build?

Run some tactical courses, paper punching , self defense and I just like collecting the various quality AR's since my main obsession of collecting minty examples of US and foreign military rifles has been impossible over the last 5-10 years.

Ironman8
11-01-12, 13:50
Run some tactical courses, paper punching , self defense and I just like collecting the various quality AR's since my main obsession of collecting minty examples of US and foreign military rifles has been impossible over the last 5-10 years.

Then why SS?

CL is the better choice for that application.

samnev
11-01-12, 14:01
I didn't know which would be better that is why I asked the question. Thanks for your input I guess i will go with the CL.:)

Ironman8
11-01-12, 14:12
I didn't know which would be better that is why I asked the question. Thanks for your input I guess i will go with the CL.:)

Lol, I thought you had it figured out about 5 posts ago :p

I'll put it as short and to the point as possible:

If it is anything precision related where you HAVE to wring out that last .25-.5" of accuracy, then SS is your best bet.

If this is for a "tactical" application where high volumes of fire are expected, then CL would be the choice.

You're already on the right track by looking at Noveske though!

PS- I believe (don't quote me on this) that the Noveske CL barrels are also a little lighter (due to profile) than the SS barrels IIRC.

markm
11-01-12, 14:22
Thanks for your input markm.

PS, I've decided to go with the Noveske over the LWRC.

OH Lord! Noveske shouldn't even be mentioned in the same thread as those roaches.

Noveske is good stuff... I've just never been impressed with extraordinary accuracy. Pappabear has a new SS barrel from Noveske that is showing some promise.

We haven't tried it with a good magnified optic yet though.

bp7178
11-01-12, 14:48
If you're shooting honest 10 shot groups with MATCH ammunition, from a chrome lined barrel the best expectation is 1.5 MOA. For a stainless, I'd say right about .75 MOA.

This is very ammo dependant. My stainless barrels are more accurate with a wider variety of ammunition. Typical for my chrome lined barrels has been about 2 MOA. My best group to date from a 16" Noveske was a 5-shot that was about .53" at 100 yards.

As a guide, I would ask what kind of optics you are planning on running. Anything magnified, outside of a RDS with a magnifier, I would suggest a stainless. For RDS, or select fire use I would suggest chrome lined.

Here are some honest Noveske reviews...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/467919_.html

MistWolf
11-01-12, 18:49
Either barrel will work for you. While a chrome lined bore generally isn't as accurate as a non-chrome lined bore, it will get the job done. If you're a hunter, it will easily hold groups within the kill zone of a bunny or squirrel. Notice I said "non-chrome lined bore" not stainless steel. A barrel made of stainless steel is no more accurate than a chromoly barrel of the same quality. The difference is that a chromoly barrel will lose accuracy gradually as the throat erodes. A stainless steel barrel will hold it's accuracy longer but when it does go due to throat erosion, it will go quick.

Chrome lined or non-chrome lined, stainless steel or chromoly, you will need to do quite a bit of shooting to wear out the barrel and by that time, a replacement barrel will seem cheap compared what was spent on ammo.

What does this mean? Just get the barrel you want and shoot it!

bp7178
11-02-12, 01:22
I don't see how you can say both will get the job done if the job hasn't been defined.

The rate at which accuracy drops off depends on the material and design of the chamber/leade/rifiling. There are a few different flavors of stainless, and even among the same type the hardness may or may not be the same, which can be said about the other materials too.

The issue with non-lined barrels isn't the rate at which the throat is worn, but with corrosion in general.

I very much agree that if you are wearing out a barrel you can more than afford to replace it. However, if a barrel design limits you to maybe 1.5 MOA, and really a good chrome lined barrel is more like 2 MOA, and you aren't happy with that, you'll be buying twice.

If you aren't willing to spend .80 per round of loaded ammunition the difference is probably a moot point anyway.

M4Fundi
11-02-12, 06:04
I have both. It really depends on the mission and how you are running the gun. If it is going to have a T1 on it and you are shooting "minute of badguy" then the CL is the way to go. If you are putting a quality magnified optic and shooting 400+ and want to make head shots or be competitive in 3Gun then SS is the way to go. What kind of hits you want at how far? The SS will help at distance and some of us need all the help we can get. When you do the math on a 500yd shot the .5 moa makes a difference in 3Gun. The SS bbls are heavier unless you get one of the lighter profiles that may only be offered thru the NST list of guns (IIRC)

jimmyp
11-02-12, 10:08
I reload, first noveske replaced my first chrome barrel, good company with great service. Secondly with a 4x scope and "on average" the barrel does 1.5 MOA, 65 grain Sierra game kings over varget do better.

500grains
11-02-12, 10:23
If you are building a precision long range rifle, go with the SS barrel.

If you are building a rifle for shooting a lot of shots close range (hot barrel), get the CL barrel.

samnev
11-02-12, 12:37
I had it figured out after the first few posts but wanted to wait until I had some empirical evidence from those that had shot and evaluated both types of barrel.
Yes the profile of the Noveske N4 Afghan with the monolithic upper seems to be much thicker. I seen both side buy side and there is a noticeable difference. I am still doing due diligence and am going to get the N4 with the monolithic upper 14.5" in what ever type barrel is available.
I plan on using a Nightforce NXS 2.5-10X32, ZS with tactical turrets.I haven't decided on the reticle yet.
By the way I do reload and have been for 40 years. I have a load that's very accurate in my AR's and Remy PSS in 223 using Sierra SMK's
Thanks to all, it's been educational.:)

markm
11-02-12, 12:46
I plan on using a Nightforce NXS 2.5-10X32, ZS with tactical turrets.I haven't decided on the reticle yet.
By the way I do reload and have been for 40 years. I have a load that's very accurate in my AR's and Remy PSS in 223 using Sierra SMK's
Thanks to all, it's been educational.:)


That screams White Oak Armament to me. :)

Ironman8
11-02-12, 13:41
Run some tactical courses, paper punching , self defense and I just like collecting the various quality AR's since my main obsession of collecting minty examples of US and foreign military rifles has been impossible over the last 5-10 years.

Putting a 2.5-10x on a rifle for the above application??

M4Fundi
11-02-12, 19:44
Agree with Ironman...???

Atleast get a 16" bbl gun for that optic. If you are set on that optic I would get an 18SS bbl rifle. If you are worried about weight get a NST NSR gun with a light profile 18". You can prone out and push the limits of the optic and still pick up the rifle and shoot CQB, classes, or 3Gun (with angle mounted irons or RDS secondary)

MistWolf
11-03-12, 02:07
I don't see how you can say both will get the job done if the job hasn't been defined...

I can say either barrel will get the job done because in the real world, both do. The chrome lined barrel may not have as much accuracy as a non-lined bore, but it will still get the job done. Look at how effective a scoped Mosin Nagant is, even with low powered optics and without a stainless steel barrel. A non-lined bore may not last as long as a lined bore, but a quality barrel will still give good service life.

If you want an edge in accuracy, get a non-lined quality stainless steel barrel. It will last a long time. If you want durability, get a quality barrel chrome lined bore and know your AR will still be accurate enough to do what you can reasonably ask it to.

What I'm trying to say is that sometimes it's pointless to agonize over the minutiae of our choices. Man up, make a choice, get a barrel and shoot it. If, for some reason you don't like it, pull it off, sell it and get something else. I put a stainless steel barrel on my carbine because I was too impatient to wait for the 4150 CMV barrels to come back into to stock. I got to shoot several hundred rounds by the time the CMV barrels were available again. I learned shooting is more educational (and satisfying) than waiting and agonizing over which barrel to use

Pappabear
11-03-12, 04:12
That screams White Oak Armament to me. :)

Mark and I shot similar gun this week:

NF scope with MIL/MIL
Went with WOA barrel 18inch SPR rifle SS

13.2 mils at 1,000 yards , went two for two.
Made hits at 300 then 500 then 1,000

Your looking at a great combo. NF and Noveske

We shot a Noveske Afghan 14.5 SS, I shot it for shit with it. Mark shot sub moa with 3.5X ACOG. 69 and 77grain smk's

We could ring the bell at 500 at will.

You gunna like that gun:D

a0cake
11-03-12, 05:34
Here's my reasoning process to determine if you should buy a chrome-lined or a stainless steel barrel. It was originally posted in the context of a thread asking whether a SS barrel was a good choice for a duty weapon:

- Are you in a position to be able to feed it exclusively match grade ammunition? There's no point in going stainless if you're shooting M855. The best barrel in the world won't make inaccurate ammunition shoot straight. If you can't afford or can't use match ammunition for whatever reason...go chrome.

- If the answer to above is YES, then you are either pretty well off financially or your unit or organization is in a place to provide it. In either of these cases, the monetary cost and practical difficulty of a replacement barrel will be absolutely trivial in comparison to the cost and availability of ammunition. In other words, if you can afford 10K rounds of match ammunition, you can afford a new barrel. If your unit or organization can get that much match ammunition, it can get you a new barrel. In either case, barrel life is a non-issue.

- Corrosion problems and sudden catastrophic failures from high volumes of fire are in my experience not relevant or warranted fears. I'm not trying to tell war stories here but I've asked a lot out of stainless barrels in the valleys and mountains. Having been in such situations with a stainless barrel I have to doubt people who claim that SS barrels are not durable enough for "combat." You have to wonder what they're basing that off. Rest assured that a good stainless barrel is more than durable enough for combat conditions. Deliberately doing 10 mag dumps in a row on the range for YouTube is another story. That's not real life. As far as corrosion, it's a non-issue unless you plan on not being around a decent CLP for weeks at a time. That's not real life either. While important for somebody's end of the world fantasy, not being able to get CLP on and in the barrel is not a real world consideration.

So, my position is that if you can take an honest look at yourself and determine that A) you can shoot to the potential of a match type barrel and B) you can afford to feed it a high quality diet and C) You don't mind the extra weight from the SS and beefier contour and D) you will not neglect to maintain your equipment...that you in fact should choose a stainless barrel for the edge in accuracy.

If the answer to any of these or the above questions is NO, then a chrome-lined barrel might be a better choice.

samnev
11-03-12, 10:41
Since I decided I wanted this rifle mainly because of the monolithic upper.


UPPER AVAILABLE ONLY AT THIS TIME
$2,590.00 FOR COMPLETE RIFLE (PICTURED)
- CURRENTLY AVAILABLE THROUGH DEALERS & DISTRIBUTORS ONLY -

14.5" Afghan 5.56mm Stainless Barrel
--1 in 7" twist polygonal rifling
--Extended Feed Ramps
--Beadblasted finish on barrel
--Mid length gas system
--1/2x28 threads
--Switchblock,(US pat #7,856,917), pinned to barrel
--Vltor VIS 9" monolithic upper
--Shot peened and MP tested bolt
--Auto carrier with properly staked carrier key
--Gun Fighter Charging Handle
--Blackout 51T Flash Suppressor, pinned to 16" OAL
Upper Weight: 4 3/4 lbs

Rifle includes above plus:
--Forged Gen II Lower
--ALG Combat Trigger (ACT)
--Mil-Spec receiver extension
--Noveske QD End Plate, staked
--H Buffer
--Vltor iMod Carbine stock
--Flip-up front and rear sights (NOT INCLUDED ON INCLUDED)

I talked to the good folks at Noveske and as the add above says complete rifle not available. My good friend who I shoot with has that rifle that he will sell me for $1800 as he has fallen on hard times. It has Magpul sights on it (he not selling his scope) which I will replace with Troys and has only 500-600 rounds thru it and it is in as new condition with box, paperwork sling and 5 Magpul 30 round magazines. I will be picking up the rifle today. I have shot the rifle quite a few times. He has a NF NXS 1-4X24 scope on it and I have shot quite a few group with it that were less than 1" @100 yards.
The reason I will be putting a NF NXS 2.5-10X32 on it is my eye sight requires more magnification than a 4X. I have 5 AR's with 4X ACOGS on them that I can't shoot as well any more as my visual acuity has decreased with age.
As for shooting quality ammunition I have a load using W 748 with 69 grain SMK's that will shot under 0.5" groups all day from my Remy 223 PSS and just over that with my POf 415 and LMT CQB.
It actually shoots better groups than Federal GMM in the aforementioned rifles.
So thanks again for all the feed back the deed is done!!!:):):)

Pappabear
11-03-12, 12:41
Here's my reasoning process to determine if you should buy a chrome-lined or a stainless steel barrel. It was originally posted in the context of a thread asking whether a SS barrel was a good choice for a duty weapon:

- Are you in a position to be able to feed it exclusively match grade ammunition? There's no point in going stainless if you're shooting M855. The best barrel in the world won't make inaccurate ammunition shoot straight. If you can't afford or can't use match ammunition for whatever reason...go chrome.

- If the answer to above is YES, then you are either pretty well off financially or your unit or organization is in a place to provide it. In either of these cases, the monetary cost and practical difficulty of a replacement barrel will be absolutely trivial in comparison to the cost and availability of ammunition. In other words, if you can afford 10K rounds of match ammunition, you can afford a new barrel. If your unit or organization can get that much match ammunition, it can get you a new barrel. In either case, barrel life is a non-issue.

- Corrosion problems and sudden catastrophic failures from high volumes of fire are in my experience not relevant or warranted fears. I'm not trying to tell war stories here but I've asked a lot out of stainless barrels in the valleys and mountains. Having been in such situations with a stainless barrel I have to doubt people who claim that SS barrels are not durable enough for "combat." You have to wonder what they're basing that off. Rest assured that a good stainless barrel is more than durable enough for combat conditions. Deliberately doing 10 mag dumps in a row on the range for YouTube is another story. That's not real life. As far as corrosion, it's a non-issue unless you plan on not being around a decent CLP for weeks at a time. That's not real life either. While important for somebody's end of the world fantasy, not being able to get CLP on and in the barrel is not a real world consideration.

So, my position is that if you can take an honest look at yourself and determine that A) you can shoot to the potential of a match type barrel and B) you can afford to feed it a high quality diet and C) You don't mind the extra weight from the SS and beefier contour and D) you will not neglect to maintain your equipment...that you in fact should choose a stainless barrel for the edge in accuracy.

If the answer to any of these or the above questions is NO, then a chrome-lined barrel might be a better choice.

a0cake, I just want to say, no wonder you patented that post, its dead nuts on. But it sold me on SS barrels. IMHO, people have the opinion that SS barrels are fragile. Which is bullshit, quality SS barrels hold up very well and I shoot many of them. And most people (for reasons out of their control) post a whole more than they shoot. So unless your Robb Jensen and SHOOT OUT a barrel a month, buy the SS barrel, IF YOU WANT IT. I don't even clean my Bolt SS barrels but every 3 to 500 rounds anymore and I punish them with 10 straight rounds of 300WMor 308 or ....Now thats not mag dumping but many would shreek at the notion. IMHO, the only way to **** up, is to buy a Bushmaster or some other CMMG...which might be dogshit whether its SS or CL.

That being said, AoCake, that was one badd ass post and very enlightening.

PB

samnev
11-03-12, 16:30
As the title says great site. I really enjoyed the diverse opinions and the back and forth between the posters. This is really THE site form AR owners and shooters. I picked up the Afghan N4 with the monolithic upper my buddy was selling me , borrowed an ACOG RCOM4 from one of my other AR's went to the range with sighted in the Noveske with my hand load and managed to shoot several groups that were about 1" @ 100 yards. My best groups was just over 0.75". The ACOG will have to do until I can save a little more coin for the NXS 2.5-10X32 Nightforce. I took out a spare EoTech 552 that I quit using and put it on on the BCM4 that had the AGOG on it. Zeroed it in and shot some pretty lousy groups from a rifle that is usually a tack driver. I just can't shoot well (a very big understatement) with a non magnified or low powered optic.:(

Magic_Salad0892
11-03-12, 17:08
You could always get Mike Rock to build you a barrel, and then get it Nitride Treated.

SS accuracy, CL longevity. (Or near it.)

samnev
11-06-12, 10:55
Took it to the range again yesterday and shot better than the other day. All 5 shoot groups at 100 yards were 1 MOA or less with a few a little over 0.6 MOA. A case of a blind squirrel finding an acorn. Forgot to add these groups were shot with my SMK hand loads.

TehLlama
11-06-12, 12:03
The tricky part about the Noveske barrels is that their SS is impressive because they're the standard for how rugged an otherwise accurate SS barrel can be, and their CL units (most of the ones I've seen) are impressive for their accuracy. AO is right on the money with that assessment, I'd just add the caveat that with good ammunition and a good optic a CL barrel is really nothing to sneeze at, and that unless you really need that precision when you ARE running match ammo, the CL is otherwise the better proposition.

samnev
11-06-12, 13:05
If I buy another Noveske which I am planning to do in the near future this time with a 16" barrel I am going to get the CL barrel. I haven't yet decided on the exact model yet. But will some time after the holidays.

sff70
11-07-12, 17:18
About a year ago, I shot the following Noveske barrels in one session:

16" Recon, TR24G, JP handguard, mil trigger
16" Rogue Hunter, IOR 1-4, Troy TRX handguard, Geisselle trigger
18" NST, Meopta ZD, TRX handguard, JP single stage trigger (my gun)

All three were consistenly producing 1.25" to 1.5" 5 round groups at 100 yards with PMC 55 grn ball. Some groups were a little better, but those were the norm.

I like how accurate the Noveske barrels are with ball ammo.

With a 10x optic and match ammo, I'm sure those groups would be smaller.

However, my next build with be with a Noveske CL barrel. I'm sure it will be accurate enough for what I want to do with this particular carbine (0 to 300 yards, with ball ammo, mainly, and capable of taking abuse).

ClearedHot
11-11-12, 01:58
The barrel is only part of the accuracy equation. The other big factor is ammo choice. I know that Noveske SS match barrels prefer Mk262.

bp7178
11-11-12, 02:49
The barrel is only part of the accuracy equation. The other big factor is ammo choice. I know that Noveske SS match barrels prefer Mk262.

How do you know that? What testing have you done or were a party to?

ClearedHot
11-11-12, 05:18
How do you know that? What testing have you done or were a party to?

FYI, John Noveske himself states that his match barrels were designed for Mk262.

http://www.defensereview.com/noveske-rifleworks-n4-light-recce-carbine-john-noveske-interview-part-one/

bp7178
11-11-12, 09:16
I've read the interview before, and linking it kind of ignored my question.

From what I remember of the interview, John Noveske doesn't say his barrels prefer mk262.

The most accurate round I've fired from a Noveske barrel was a Hornady 55gr VMAX.

vicious_cb
11-11-12, 11:37
FYI, John Noveske himself states that his match barrels were designed for Mk262.

http://www.defensereview.com/noveske-rifleworks-n4-light-recce-carbine-john-noveske-interview-part-one/

Read the interview again. He did not say that his barrels PREFER mk262, instead he says his SS barrels have a special 5.56 chamber that can fire the higher pressured mk262 on full auto on a hot day without any issues.