View Full Version : Acceptable technique for defensive rounds?
Leonidas24
05-26-13, 02:11
I'm of the opinion that a duty/defensive round should use a crimped and sealed primer along with a crimp at the cannelure of the bullet. I have factory Lake City and Winchester 55 gr rounds still loaded that I've been thinking about pulling the bullets on in order to use the brass and primer. I understand the variances I might encounter with the different primers, and don't plan on using the powder currently in the cases.
I plan on working up a load using a Nosler 64 gr BSB over Varget or CFE 223. I've yet to use either powder (my experience is limited to H335 and TAC,) but want to hear some opinions on whether this is a safe practice.
Boxerglocker
05-26-13, 08:29
I'm of the opinion that a duty/defensive round should use a crimped and sealed primer along with a crimp at the cannelure of the bullet. I have factory Lake City and Winchester 55 gr rounds still loaded that I've been thinking about pulling the bullets on in order to use the brass and primer. I understand the variances I might encounter with the different primers, and don't plan on using the powder currently in the cases.
I plan on working up a load using a Nosler 64 gr BSB over Varget or CFE 223. I've yet to use either powder (my experience is limited to H335 and TAC,) but want to hear some opinions on whether this is a safe practice.
I don't see any issues with your intended process to reuse the brass and primers. Though personally I feel just buying a good reputable defensive factory round such as a Horandy TAP or Winchester is the better option liability wise, but that's another debate.
Other than that, quantity of the brass/primers you have may be a limiting factor on your load development.
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-26-13, 08:46
I don't see any issues with your intended process to reuse the bras and primers. Though personally I feel just buying a good reputable defensive factory round such as a Horandy TAP or Winchester is the better option liability wise, but that's another debate.
Other than that, quantity of the brass/primers you have may be a limiting factor on your load development.
I second that! Legal nightmare to say the least, I'm no lawyer but, that's the first thing I would hit on in a criminal prosecution to prove you intended to kill, planned it, prepared for it by crafting what you believed to be a bullets more capable of killing.
Post like this while I'm sure not intended as stupid really scream lock me!
I'm of the opinion that a duty/defensive round should use a crimped and sealed primer along with a crimp at the cannelure of the bullet. I have factory Lake City and Winchester 55 gr rounds still loaded that I've been thinking about pulling the bullets on in order to use the brass and primer. I understand the variances I might encounter with the different primers, and don't plan on using the powder currently in the cases.
I plan on working up a load using a Nosler 64 gr BSB over Varget or CFE 223. I've yet to use either powder (my experience is limited to H335 and TAC,) but want to hear some opinions on whether this is a safe practice.
markm does this all the time from what I understand. I think he calls them Mexican Match or something...I'm sure he'll be by here to chime in.
As for the legality issues mentioned above. I know that wasn't even a part of your question, but sorry to the other posters, I'm calling BS. A good shoot is a good shoot. This has been hashed out many times before, but as far as I know, there isn't one instance where a guy was prosecuted for using reloads in a case where he wouldn't have been prosecuted for the shoot being a bad shoot to begin with. Just sayin.
I second that! Legal nightmare to say the least, I'm no lawyer but, that's the first thing I would hit on in a criminal prosecution to prove you intended to kill, planned it, prepared for it by crafting what you believed to be a bullets more capable of killing.
Post like this while I'm sure not intended as stupid really scream lock me!
How many criminal prosecutions have you been involved in?
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-26-13, 13:25
markm does this all the time from what I understand. I think he calls them Mexican Match or something...I'm sure he'll be by here to chime in.
As for the legality issues mentioned above. I know that wasn't even a part of your question, but sorry to the other posters, I'm calling BS. A good shoot is a good shoot. This has been hashed out many times before, but as far as I know, there isn't one instance where a guy was prosecuted for using reloads in a case where he wouldn't have been prosecuted for the shoot being a bad shoot to begin with. Just sayin.
Perhaps not in a criminal case but what about a civil one? Additionally not trying to start a fight, but how many LE agency do you see using hand loads in any of there weapons, I don't know any? The term "mexican match" only initials the pulling a the bullet and its replacement with one of higher quality, the powder charge is left alone. What he is doing can be done a lot cheaper by buying primed brass.
I have never understood the desire to "work up" a defensive load. I've yet to see a proper defensive load like TAP not shoot accurately enough out of my guns to be a 100 yard headshot load. TAP runs at 1.5" five round groups out of my BCM and DD. It's pretty tough to come up with a scenario that a civilian would require a shot longer than that.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reloading and spend quite a bit of time building hunting and target loads, but the factory defensive stuff is pretty damn good these days. Good enough that I really can't do anything better for the intended purpose.
markm does this all the time from what I understand. I think he calls them Mexican Match or something...I'm sure he'll be by here to chime in.
As for the legality issues mentioned above. I know that wasn't even a part of your question, but sorry to the other posters, I'm calling BS. A good shoot is a good shoot. This has been hashed out many times before, but as far as I know, there isn't one instance where a guy was prosecuted for using reloads in a case where he wouldn't have been prosecuted for the shoot being a bad shoot to begin with. Just sayin.
There actually was a case were a guy made super light 38 spcl. handloads for his super recoil sensitive wife. One day he walked in on her getting ready to blow her brains out and didn't make it in time. Gun shot residue testing on her was synonymous with the shooter being across the room due to the loads being so damn light. The courts ruled that reloading notes are not admissible in court and he was prosecuted for murder.
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That makes no sense in the way you are explaining it, to the point I suspect you're making it up or are really mistaken or confused. Or maybe just can't tell a story...
Doing research and testing in loading your own rounds is no different than an agency testing various ammunition. Agency tests would generally be much more intensive than a hobbyist could ever hope for.
Boxerglocker
05-26-13, 15:43
There actually was a case were a guy made super light 38 spcl. handloads for his super recoil sensitive wife. One day he walked in on her getting ready to blow her brains out and didn't make it in time. Gun shot residue testing on her was synonymous with the shooter being across the room due to the loads being so damn light. The courts ruled that reloading notes are not admissible in court and he was prosecuted for murder.
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That point was actually brought up a a concealed carry 101 and the law course I once attended. You cannot fabricate evidence on your own behalf. So in most cases all your load development data would be inadmissible in a court hearing.
I'm of the opinion that the criminal liabilities are actually the lesser of the issues that I would be concerned with. I agree, a justified shoot is justified and though some states would hopefully absolve you of any civilian liability if that was the case. It's the Civilian trial that would definitely concern me. Even then, if as a hand loader I could prove myself innocent of any wrong doing, keep accurate records of my personal SD load development and testing. In the long run, it's just a lot more trying to justify my case if accused rather than hand over the box label with the current factory SD ammo that I am using. Yes, I keep those in my safe till the box is completely cycled though my mags and shot down range at practice.
As for proof on my stance. I don't necessarily believe everything that supposedly can be researched on the internet. I have all the proof I need to form my own opinion. I've spoken to trusted friends and family in both local and federal law enforcement circles. I have a shooting associate that is criminal lawyer who happens to own one of the local gun ranges. I know him well enough that I would not hesitate to call him if I needed representation. People are free to make to stand on the side of the fence they choice, based on their personal research of the topic.
Leonidas24
05-26-13, 15:48
I have never understood the desire to "work up" a defensive load. I've yet to see a proper defensive load like TAP not shoot accurately enough out of my guns to be a 100 yard headshot load. TAP runs at 1.5" five round groups out of my BCM and DD. It's pretty tough to come up with a scenario that a civilian would require a shot longer than that.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reloading and spend quite a bit of time building hunting and target loads, but the factory defensive stuff is pretty damn good these days. Good enough that I really can't do anything better for the intended purpose.
My intentions are due to the limited availability of affordable bonded soft point rounds to the civilian market right now. The new Nosler rounds are showing up in stock on Midway every once in a while, and SG Ammo has had the Winchester version available for some time now but at $31 a box. I have several boxes of Gold Dot 64 which is what I primarily keep with the rifle at any given time, however the 150 rds I bought before SHTF is hardly ideal.
This would be something to keep for bad situations in addition to my factory loaded ammo.
That makes no sense in the way you are explaining it, to the point I suspect you're making it up or are really mistaken or confused. Or maybe just can't tell a story...
Doing research and testing in loading your own rounds is no different than an agency testing various ammunition. Agency tests would generally be much more intensive than a hobbyist could ever hope for.
Or rather you just lack the compression to understand what I wrote. It's a well known case that even the poster under you is aware of. Next time maybe you should just ask questions about something instead of calling bullshit just because you don't understand it. Pretty much the definition of ignorant. :rolleyes:
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He didn't mention specific knowledge of the case you are talking about, but the legal precedence you were poorly eluding at.
You didn't even say what state the case was in, the names of any of the parties, the year of the decision, or what court it was even heard in.
That amounts to an anecdote at best.
Or rather you just lack the compression to understand what I wrote.
I think that would be comprehension.
This is the case which is poorly referenced herein...
Supreme Court of New Jersey
State v. Daniel N. Bias
NOS. C-188 SEPT.TERM 1995, 40,813
Oct 03, 1995
Disposition: Cross-pet. Denied.
N.J. 1995.
State v. Bias
142 N>J> 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)
What was held by a jury was that during an argument he pointed the gun at her and pulled the trigger. He mistakenly thought the gun was unloaded, and the hammer would fall on an empty chamber, in an effort to scare her.
He was wrong and shot her.
He was convicted of a lesser degree of a homicide related charge, Reckless Manslaughter by NJ law.
The mention of reloads was merely his defense, not a finding of fact by a court.
Leonidas24
05-27-13, 01:21
I'm going to cut the bullshit and say that none of that has anything to do with what I asked, nor do I care. If I honest-to-God have to shoot someone in the defense of myself or family my firearm is first and foremost kept with factory loaded 64 gr Gold Dots. The issue is that those are no longer in steady supply in the amount that I would prefer to have on hand, but components are available for a similar and perhaps higher quality bullet.
The idea is that if the proverbial shit hits the fan, I'll have enough high(er) quality ammunition than I do now to squeeze by in a pinch.
What he is doing can be done a lot cheaper by buying primed brass.
If there were primed brass available I'd have already bought it.
How many shots do you, or would you, anticipate firing in a "SHTF" scenario?
I don't want to hurt your feelings, but one 30 round magazine is probably way more than you'll ever need.
Also, carrying arms out in the open in such a scenario will more than likely get your ass wacked.
We all like to think that if some Walking Dead shit happened, we would have 10,000 k rounds of the best shit going to save our ass. But logistically, how to you store it? How do you transport it? How do you maintain the functionality of your weapon system long enough to be able to go through that much?
Reality. If shit ever got that ****ed up, your ability to gather water and food for life sustainment would FAR exceed your need for bonded factory loaded ammunition.
For home defense, having been awakened in the middle of the night as a matter of experience, my go to would be a pistol loaded at the ready with a mounted light.
Leonidas24
05-27-13, 02:08
How many shots do you, or would you, anticipate firing in a "SHTF" scenario?
I don't want to hurt your feelings, but one 30 round magazine is probably way more than you'll ever need.
Also, carrying arms out in the open in such a scenario will more than likely get your ass wacked.
We all like to think that if some Walking Dead shit happened, we would have 10,000 k rounds of the best shit going to save our ass. But logistically, how to you store it? How do you transport it? How do you maintain the functionality of your weapon system long enough to be able to go through that much?
Reality. If shit ever got that ****ed up, your ability to gather water and food for life sustainment would FAR exceed your need for bonded factory loaded ammunition.
For home defense, having been awakened in the middle of the night as a matter of experience, my go to would be a pistol loaded at the ready with a mounted light.
I don't mean to offend but clearly the intent of the thread has been misunderstood. I'm only talking about an extra 200 rounds to compliment what I already have until prices and supply stabilize.
You are completely missing the point and he doesn't care if you want to use a pistol. That's not what he is asking.
How many shots do you, or would you, anticipate firing in a "SHTF" scenario?
I don't want to hurt your feelings, but one 30 round magazine is probably way more than you'll ever need.
Also, carrying arms out in the open in such a scenario will more than likely get your ass wacked.
We all like to think that if some Walking Dead shit happened, we would have 10,000 k rounds of the best shit going to save our ass. But logistically, how to you store it? How do you transport it? How do you maintain the functionality of your weapon system long enough to be able to go through that much?
Reality. If shit ever got that ****ed up, your ability to gather water and food for life sustainment would FAR exceed your need for bonded factory loaded ammunition.
For home defense, having been awakened in the middle of the night as a matter of experience, my go to would be a pistol loaded at the ready with a mounted light.
It is my firm belief (and others as well) the type of ammunition (unless it is illegal or you are claiming and accidental discharge) will be meaningless. There is only one case of late that comes to mind and that was the case of Harold Fish. In all honesty it wouldn't have mattered if he was using a 9mm or .45 because the prosecutor was out to get him.
Load whatever you are going to load and if you feel comfortable with those rounds as far as their accuracy and reliability then go for it. For more important will be whether or not your shoot was "clean" and justifiable.
I don't mean to offend but clearly the intent of the thread has been misunderstood. I'm only talking about an extra 200 rounds to compliment what I already have until prices and supply stabilize.
I wonder, if you would be more likely to be prosecuted for committing suicide with reloaded ammo vs factory ammo?
I mean suicide is illegal but I bet, maybe the reloaded ammo will drive the DA mad that you had the audacity to shoot yourself with reloaded ammo! Why the unmitigated gall of some people!
I have read the self defense with reloaded ammo vs factory ammo so much, how about we get the suicide with reloads vs factory debate going? How many people have been prosecuted for doing this with reloads vs factory ammo?:rolleyes:
To the OP's original question, for my use, a quality reload is just as good or better for any use as a factory load is. In my 223's I have used the Speer 70 gr RN @ 2750 fps for decades. Killed many dozens of deer and a few hogs, bullet performance has been stellar and I have full confidence in the loads ability to perform as a defensive round.
I don't mean to offend but clearly the intent of the thread has been misunderstood. I'm only talking about an extra 200 rounds to compliment what I already have until prices and supply stabilize.
If you already know what you want to do, and you're "of the opinion that a duty/defensive round should use a crimped and sealed primer along with a crimp at the cannelure of the bullet", just buy some primer/bullet sealer and a Lee FCD and have at it.
Different primer/bullet sealant will have manufacturers instructions associated with its use. IIRC, primer sealer is best applied before inserting the primer by brushing a small amount along the walls of the primer pocket, not just swiping the brush across the finished cartridge.
Clearly I misunderstood the intent of the thread as typically they are typically used to invite conversation about a topic, which in this case the topic being carbine defensive ammunition and the handloader.
OkieOutlaw
05-27-13, 15:26
Wow, Just wow is all I have to say bout this conversation. How it turned from a simple reloading question to having to legally defend ones use of handloaded ammo in case of a SHTF scenario made no sense at all to me. Most of the rounds I reload are so called self defense/hunting rounds except for the FMJ plinking target shooting stuff. The cost of factory ammo is why I reload. I am simply NOT going to spend my hard earned money on the latest and greatest factory self defense ammo at a dollar a round or more price tag when I have a stockpile of handloads that shoot just as well if not way more accurate than factory ammo simply because they are made to outperform based on what my rifle shoots best. I figure that something has definitely messed up if I have to use it for self defense and it will be far too late to figure out where I stored that new whiz bang factory ammo.
I have factory Lake City and Winchester 55 gr rounds still loaded that I've been thinking about pulling the bullets on in order to use the brass and primer. I understand the variances I might encounter with the different primers, and don't plan on using the powder currently in the cases.
I plan on working up a load using a Nosler 64 gr BSB over Varget or CFE 223. I've yet to use either powder (my experience is limited to H335 and TAC,) but want to hear some opinions on whether this is a safe practice.
Leonidas24, there is no problem with doing what you are talking about. You could use the powder in the shells if you worked your load up safely.
I would prefer to find a military loading with a projectlile of a simular weight. Then do a straight "Mexican Match" change out with the bullets. I do this with M1 Garand surplus and 308 surplus. I pull the bullet and seat the 150 gr BT on top of the original powder charge and it makes very good hunting ammo for my M1 and M1A.
The 64 gr Nosler BSB should work great for you. I have 1500 on hand now and plan to put some deer and hogs down with it this year and see how it works. The old Speer 70gr round nose has worked well for me over the years but a bonded bullet will do even better. Good luck.
Leonidas24
05-27-13, 18:06
Clearly I misunderstood the intent of the thread as typically they are typically used to invite conversation about a topic, which in this case the topic being carbine defensive ammunition and the handloader.
You were doing alright up to the point the thread derailed and zombies were mentioned.
hamour: I'm considering doing what you said but I'd rather use it with some 55 gr V-Maxes for accuracy loads.
markm does this all the time from what I understand. I think he calls them Mexican Match or something...I'm sure he'll be by here to chime in.
Absolutely. Works great.
I have a bunch of 2006 Federal AE with LC sealed and crimped brass that I'm pulling down. I put the bullet and primer into practice brass and shoot it.
Then I run the new brass with a 77 gr SMK and some 8208 XBR for a Mk262 clone.
El Pistolero
05-28-13, 10:41
There actually was a case were a guy made super light 38 spcl. handloads for his super recoil sensitive wife. One day he walked in on her getting ready to blow her brains out and didn't make it in time. Gun shot residue testing on her was synonymous with the shooter being across the room due to the loads being so damn light. The courts ruled that reloading notes are not admissible in court and he was prosecuted for murder.
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If true, that really sucks.
There actually was a case were a guy made super light 38 spcl. handloads for his super recoil sensitive wife. One day he walked in on her getting ready to blow her brains out and didn't make it in time. Gun shot residue testing on her was synonymous with the shooter being across the room due to the loads being so damn light. The courts ruled that reloading notes are not admissible in court and he was prosecuted for murder.
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Huh....
I would agree that with the complexity of the legal system, it is always a good idea to stack every legal advantage in your favor. Using factory defense ammo is just one more way of protecting your own ass.
As for the legality issues mentioned above. I know that wasn't even a part of your question, but sorry to the other posters, I'm calling BS. A good shoot is a good shoot. This has been hashed out many times before, but as far as I know, there isn't one instance where a guy was prosecuted for using reloads in a case where he wouldn't have been prosecuted for the shoot being a bad shoot to begin with. Just sayin.
^^This. I think it would be fair to say that in a situation where you acted correctly, the origin of the rounds used should not (would not?) be a factor.
Of course, we are talking about the same society that made a big deal about the kid on the school bus with the GI Joe toy gun the size of a quarter; and the one all over the kid who chewed his pop tart into the shape of a firearm; and last, but not least, the same mindset that "would have brought in the police" if the 6? year old had brought caps along with his cap gun, to school.
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