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Gungho
08-07-13, 13:14
I'm looking for some advice or reviews of the Bushmaster C15 combo.
Is there anyone that can guide me on this.
I recently purchased an AR style Mossberg International 715T .22 and believe it to be a POS because the sights are so bad it's incapable of being sighted in for more than 50 yards. I'm very dissatisfied with it and want to avoid buying something else that may also be a POS.

6933
08-07-13, 13:20
want to avoid buying something else that may also be a POS.

Then avoid BM. You can always buy a quality AR such as: BCM, Daniel Defense, LaRue, Colt, Noveske, or KAC. There are .22 uppers you can buy to put on the lower so you can shoot 5.56 and .22 utilizing the same lower. I would suggest you read the stickies as there is an abundant amount of info. that will help you in the AR world.

I would also ask what is the purpose of the rifle. If it is a home defense and may have to stake your and/or your families life on then the above rifles are the way to go. If it is just to take out and plink a couple of times a yr., then a lower grade AR such as Stag or S&W may fit the bill.

thopkins22
08-07-13, 13:24
Then avoid BM. You can always buy a quality AR such as: BCM, Daniel Defense, LaRue, Colt, Noveske, or KAC. There are .22 uppers you can buy to put on the lower so you can shoot 5.56 and .22 utilizing the same lower. I would suggest you read the stickies as there is an abundant amount of info. that will help you in the AR world.

I would also ask what is the purpose of the rifle. If it is a home defense and may have to stake your and/or your families life on then the above rifles are the way to go. If it is just to take out and plink a couple of times a yr., then a lower grade AR such as Stag or S&W may fit the bill.

This is sage.

.46caliber
08-07-13, 13:48
Run a search for Carbon 15. I've seen a few ugly pics of the plastic receivers busted up.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

Gungho
08-07-13, 13:55
Run a search for Carbon 15. I've seen a few ugly pics of the plastic receivers busted up.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

Thank you for the specific feedback. Would anyone else be able to tell me WHY I shouldn't buy the BM? Please be specific.

As for what it's going to be used for; hunting and self-defense. I would just like to know what the problem is with the BM......

I'm new to the site......what are stickys?

Hmac
08-07-13, 13:56
Bushmaster would be the wrong way to go, and the C15 is a bad choice, even for a Bushmaster.

You can go the .22 upper route, but IMHO the M&P 15-22 at under $500 has to be one of the best deals going for a .22 cal AR trainer.

ETA: Do a search on this site using the orange search button at the top, keyword "Bushmaster". Here, let me do it for you....

http://www.m4carbine.net/gtsearch.php?cx=003496919632624929056%3Adhiwgm0hbaa&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=bushmaster&sa=Search&siteurl=www.m4carbine.net%2Fsearch.php&ref=www.m4carbine.net%2Fsearch.php%3Fsearchid%3D6231036&ss=1664j446690j10

It's a lot of reading. On a site like this with a lot of long time users, mfgrs, and Subject Matter Experts, you won't find a lot of love for that brand or for consumer-grade price-point rifles in general.

Split66
08-07-13, 13:57
http://i2.minus.com/ibV6xy.JPG

skijunkie55
08-07-13, 13:58
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376

have fun reading.

Just a side note - If you're going to be offended by the opinions expressed here concerning said product, then this place isn't for you.

Gungho
08-07-13, 14:11
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376

have fun reading.

Just a side note - If you're going to be offended by the opinions expressed here concerning said product, then this place isn't for you.

I'm sorry, I'm not offended by anything on here; I'm just looking for opinions......not sure what made you think I was offended but I'm not, thank you.
I'm just wanting some specific info on the BM C15 Combo. The combo aspect is what is attracting me for $1,035.
As I say, I'm new to the AR world and need some guidance. I.E. do they misfire a lot? do they jam a lot? are they inaccurate? do they have a major flaw? Those sort of things.
The only thing I would ask is that if you reply please don't use abbreviations for manufactures because I don't understand them.
And if someone would like to tell me what 'stickys' are I would be happy to go read them.
Thanks again.

Hmac
08-07-13, 14:19
I'm sorry, I'm not offended by anything on here; I'm just looking for opinions......not sure what made you think I was offended but I'm not, thank you.
I'm just wanting some specific info on the BM C15 Combo. The combo aspect is what is attracting me for $1,035.
As I say, I'm new to the AR world and need some guidance. I.E. do they misfire a lot? do they jam a lot? are they inaccurate? do they have a major flaw? Those sort of things.
The only thing I would ask is that if you reply please don't use abbreviations for manufactures because I don't understand them.
And if someone would like to tell me what 'stickys' are I would be happy to go read them.
Thanks again.

You will find that reviewing the various Bushmaster threads yourself allows you to distill a conglomeration of opinions from users of this site rather than just getting spoon-fed an opinion from one or two responders in this thread.

skijunkie55 mentions the possibility of getting butt-hurt because it is a common theme on this site....a newbie comes on asking about their Bushmaster, gets shot down for a bad choice, then they leave in a huff because they didn't get the validation and reinforcement that they were looking for.

The stickies referred to:

http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=4
http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=3

.46caliber
08-07-13, 14:21
http://i2.minus.com/ibV6xy.JPG

Gungho

That picture is one of the ones I was referring to. And just to be clear, that's not a disassembly picture, the barrel assembly broke off the upper receiver. I would think a good polymer lower is possible, but that is not the way it could be done. And I doubt BM would be the one to get it right.

Stickies are threads that have been pinned to the top of the list of a given section. Stickies often contain answers to common questions and information that is so good and helpful that the administration keeps it readily accessible.

You've established what you want to do with the AR, hunting and HD. That's step 1, complete.

Spending $1100 at WalMart on a Colt LE6920 would satisfy both. Dependable enough to serve as an HD firearm. It uses a 1/7 twist barrel that will stabilize the longer projectiles that make for good .223/5.56 hunting rounds. With some inexpensive ammo, it would be hell on beer cans too. That rifle can fulfill, very well I might add, 3 distinct roles.

Edited for correction.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

TehLlama
08-07-13, 14:21
The stickies are the top list of permanently attached threads at the top of each forum.

If in doubt on an abbreviation, the search bar is your friend - just search that abbreviation, and somewhere on the first page it'll probably be spelled out. If not, google that plus AR and it will likely come up.

If you want to look at multi-use setups, the CMMG Drop-in kit, which works OK for what it is, still puts you within $100 of starting off with a Colt 6920 and the convo kit, which is an infinitely better rifle than the BM C-15 anything. I'd still say make the .22lr trainer a dedicated rifle, let that setup absorb all the accessories you no longer want on a primary rifle, and work from there. Looking at how much they want for that C-15 combo kit makes me cringe - you can start off with an excellent rifle (the 6920) and buy a .22 kit, instead of having two configurations of a rifle that is frankly worse made than a lot of airsoft hardware I own.

The reason there's concern on new people being upset, is the majority of low information AR buyers come here, get offended or assume that this site exists to make people who buy cheap hardware feel bad, and then seek advice elsewhere where the subject matter expert (SME) to clueless idiot ratio is closer to zero. Just some context on what you'll read from the stickies - the same way a four-door sedan sold for under $8000 new is intuitively not good at its job, most rifles under $900 are going to be utter crap - in the firearms industry companies get away with it because most rifles live in a safe and aren't fired, thus you get lots of errornet information that 'my rifle is perfectly reliable', which is worth as much as a car review where they've driven it around a wal-mart parking lot in first gear.

Walleye
08-07-13, 14:28
I have no experience with Bushmaster, but I'll echo the recommendation that you get a dedicated HD rifle and a dedicated plinker. This is especially true now since 22LR is still difficult to find at a reasonable price while .223/5.56 is starting to come back down to earth in both availability and price.

WillBrink
08-07-13, 14:28
I'm sorry, I'm not offended by anything on here; I'm just looking for opinions......not sure what made you think I was offended but I'm not, thank you.
I'm just wanting some specific info on the BM C15 Combo. The combo aspect is what is attracting me for $1,035.
As I say, I'm new to the AR world and need some guidance. I.E. do they misfire a lot? do they jam a lot? are they inaccurate? do they have a major flaw? Those sort of things.
The only thing I would ask is that if you reply please don't use abbreviations for manufactures because I don't understand them.
And if someone would like to tell me what 'stickys' are I would be happy to go read them.
Thanks again.

You were given threads to read. Read them, then see if they answer yours Qs. If not, ask additional Qs. Ignoring links to threads given that will cover why BM is considered sub par AR is not the way to go on M4C.

If you don't want to get into all the details of why BM is considered sub par, simply purchase one of the brands listed for you above.

Good luck. ;)

midSCarolina
08-07-13, 14:34
I'm looking for some advice or reviews of the Bushmaster C15 combo.
Is there anyone that can guide me on this.
I recently purchased an AR style Mossberg International 715T .22 and believe it to be a POS because the sights are so bad it's incapable of being sighted in for more than 50 yards. I'm very dissatisfied with it and want to avoid buying something else that may also be a POS.

Bushmaster Carbon 15 :mad:

Give us a price range an we will give you some suggestions. Welcome and I am glad you asked bc yes... the rifle in question is a serious POS. This is not a secret... a search would have probably answered your question.

Gungho
08-07-13, 14:37
Thank you ALL very much for the info.

I will check out the stickies.

And no worries, I came here for your opinions and that's what I got and they are much appreciated. As well, I appreciate the recommendations about navigating the site/forum.

skijunkie55
08-07-13, 14:44
I'm sorry, I'm not offended by anything on here; I'm just looking for opinions......not sure what made you think I was offended but I'm not, thank you.
I'm just wanting some specific info on the BM C15 Combo. The combo aspect is what is attracting me for $1,035.
As I say, I'm new to the AR world and need some guidance. I.E. do they misfire a lot? do they jam a lot? are they inaccurate? do they have a major flaw? Those sort of things.
The only thing I would ask is that if you reply please don't use abbreviations for manufactures because I don't understand them.
And if someone would like to tell me what 'stickys' are I would be happy to go read them.
Thanks again.

Wasn't saying you were currently or would be in the future, but as pointed out by Hmac and others, there are alot of new users who come here with their heart set on a certain item only to have the industry and subject experts (those with a LOT of experience on the AR platform in the military, training, manufacturing, etc.) tell them they have made or are about to make a poor choice.

If you're willing to read the numerous threads that have been posted, you'll know you've made an informed decision and should get the answers you seek...

But now I'm just beating a dead horse as everyone has already said this. Good luck with your future purchase and welcome :D


and another +1 vote for the Colt 6920

glocktogo
08-07-13, 14:46
All these guys are trying to give you 100% straight up good advice. None of them profit from your ultimate choice. A few posters on this site (none of whom have replied in this thread so far) are also manufacturers, distributors and dealers. You can find their wares by clicking on the billboards at the top of the page.

The reason your continued questions are suspect is because the internet doesn't provide inflection. We can't actually see or hear what's on your mind. But, we've seen enough of these threads to infer that you REALLY want that Bushmaster combo and aren't pleased that it gets no favorable comments on M4C. It reads like you've already chosen it and just wanted validation.

M4C asks that all new members familiarize themselves with the stickies before posting these questions. The reason is because your questions are neither new nor unique. That's not a put down at all. It's simply acknowledging that you're on the first steps to the path of enlightenment. If you chose to ignore the sage advice you're being given in this thread, then that path is not for you.

Choose wisely. ;)

Gungho
08-07-13, 14:50
Bushmaster Carbon 15 :mad:

Give us a price range an we will give you some suggestions. Welcome and I am glad you asked bc yes... the rifle in question is a serious POS. This is not a secret... a search would have probably answered your question.

Thank you.

I actually did a Google search and the links I chose took me to this site and a Prepper site.

I'm terribly sorry if I'm pissing anyone off; I'm trying to get the info on my own, I'm just not having any luck finding info directly related to the problems with this specific firearm.

As I said though, IF I decide to go with the BM it will cost $1,035. That is my price range and I like the dual capability and that's why I 'was' leaning toward it. Now, not only am I rethinking purchasing the BM but I'm flustered about WHICH manufacturer to go with.
I want/need and AR......I really don't need a .22, I've got two already, I just like the versatility......knowing that if the SHTF I don't have to carry an entirely different rifle for hunting small game.

Grand58742
08-07-13, 15:01
As I said though, IF I decide to go with the BM it will cost $1,035.

Highway bloody robbery.

Answers to the question:

Colt or BCM.

Check the industry guys here for good deals

Forget polymer lowers.

glocktogo
08-07-13, 15:37
Thank you.

I actually did a Google search and the links I chose took me to this site and a Prepper site.

I'm terribly sorry if I'm pissing anyone off; I'm trying to get the info on my own, I'm just not having any luck finding info directly related to the problems with this specific firearm.

As I said though, IF I decide to go with the BM it will cost $1,035. That is my price range and I like the dual capability and that's why I 'was' leaning toward it. Now, not only am I rethinking purchasing the BM but I'm flustered about WHICH manufacturer to go with.
I want/need and AR......I really don't need a .22, I've got two already, I just like the versatility......knowing that if the SHTF I don't have to carry an entirely different rifle for hunting small game.

Given your price range, I'd get the Colt and wait a little bit to buy a CMMG .22lr conversion. If you really feel like you need the .22lr capability now, go with a S&W M&P15 and get the conversion.

There's a little cash benefit in getting a lower tier AR, and given the correct choice and careful inspection & maintenance, it's a viable route to go for a low volume shooter. If you're not going to classes quarterly, training weekly to monthly and shooting competitions, you can make one work just fine.

Still, there's a lot to be said for peace of mind. Buying a Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, etc. is paying a little more for a significantly better quality rifle. What price should that peace of mind cost?

Gungho
08-07-13, 15:58
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376

have fun reading.

Just a side note - If you're going to be offended by the opinions expressed here concerning said product, then this place isn't for you.

I HAVE read the above thread....
I HAVE read the "Bushmaster" Stickys......
And what that amounts to is a bunch of crap that has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the model I am 'thinking' about buying......
And NO ONE seems to want to ANSWER my original question, they only want to bash me for NOT reading something that I didn't know existed in the first place.......
And since "The Chart" has been removed and replaced with a bunch of gobbledy gook, that makes absolutely no sense when it comes to answering my question, it's crap and should be removed altogether and never referenced again.:mad: I just wasted half an hour reading useless information!
And the "Sticky" that is supposed to show pics of AR's doesn't even bother to name the rifles shown........Semper Phi:rolleyes:

This IS why I asked the question I did to begin with. I didn't ask for opinions about Bushmaster in general; if you just don't like BM that's fine but I don't care. I asked for SPECIFIC opinions about the Bushmaster C15 Combo only. Is there a problem with it? Does anyone have one that has an educated opinion? If BM isn't a good brand what would be?

I see that the Colt seems to be a popular brand and I will check into those.

Thank you for your responses. I'm still not OFFENDED, I'm pissed because people on these damn forums are only on here so they can behave like they are holier than thou......If you can't answer my question then bugger off! You have NO idea what I have read on this forum and what I haven't......AND if those stickys or searchs didn't answer my question I guess that's why I asked the question and started this thread.


This was the most helpful and least judgmental response I received to my question:

TehLlama

The stickies are the top list of permanently attached threads at the top of each forum.

If in doubt on an abbreviation, the search bar is your friend - just search that abbreviation, and somewhere on the first page it'll probably be spelled out. If not, google that plus AR and it will likely come up.

If you want to look at multi-use setups, the CMMG Drop-in kit, which works OK for what it is, still puts you within $100 of starting off with a Colt 6920 and the convo kit, which is an infinitely better rifle than the BM C-15 anything. I'd still say make the .22lr trainer a dedicated rifle, let that setup absorb all the accessories you no longer want on a primary rifle, and work from there. Looking at how much they want for that C-15 combo kit makes me cringe - you can start off with an excellent rifle (the 6920) and buy a .22 kit, instead of having two configurations of a rifle that is frankly worse made than a lot of airsoft hardware I own.

The reason there's concern on new people being upset, is the majority of low information AR buyers come here, get offended or assume that this site exists to make people who buy cheap hardware feel bad, and then seek advice elsewhere where the subject matter expert (SME) to clueless idiot ratio is closer to zero. Just some context on what you'll read from the stickies - the same way a four-door sedan sold for under $8000 new is intuitively not good at its job, most rifles under $900 are going to be utter crap - in the firearms industry companies get away with it because most rifles live in a safe and aren't fired, thus you get lots of errornet information that 'my rifle is perfectly reliable', which is worth as much as a car review where they've driven it around a wal-mart parking lot in first gear.

CrazyFingers
08-07-13, 16:00
Assuming you're going to read the sticky posts so you can understand why Bushmaster is considered "hobby grade" at best, here's a quick list of manufacturers that produce quality rifles that will meet your needs:

Colt (http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRifles/ColtLE6920Series.aspx) - Considered by most to be the "Gold Standard" by which all other AR-15 rifles are measured.

Other top-quality manufacturers, in no particular order:

Bravo Company USA (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M4-Carbine-AR15-Bravo-Company-s/141.htm)

Daniel Defense (https://danieldefense.com/rifles.html?cat=11)

Noveske (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?cat=138)

Any of the above make rifles that you can trust your life to, and if properly maintained, will last longer than you will.

Now, to find out why, you need to do some reading.

EDIT: And, nothing personal, but getting "pissed" and copping an attitude will not carry you very far here. People are genuinely trying to help you.

Gungho
08-07-13, 16:12
Assuming you're going to read the sticky posts so you can understand why Bushmaster is considered "hobby grade" at best, here's a quick list of manufacturers that produce quality rifles that will meet your needs:

Colt (http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRifles/ColtLE6920Series.aspx) - Considered by most to be the "Gold Standard" by which all other AR-15 rifles are measured.

Other top-quality manufacturers, in no particular order:

Bravo Company USA (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M4-Carbine-AR15-Bravo-Company-s/141.htm)

Daniel Defense (https://danieldefense.com/rifles.html?cat=11)

Noveske (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?cat=138)

Any of the above make rifles that you can trust your life to, and if properly maintained, will last longer than you will.

Now, to find out why, you need to do some reading.

EDIT: And, nothing personal, but getting "pissed" and copping an attitude will not carry you very far here. People are genuinely trying to help you.

Thank you for your Informative Post. I will be checking into these.

Copping an attitude isn't my purpose. My purpose is to get all the damn haters to shut up! Like telling me to read, I have read and haven't received ANY answers to my original question, all I see is a bunch of BM haters bashing me for my ignorance and a VERY FEW "genuinely" trying to help. I'm sorry, but I'm not a door mat, and I will not sit silently when someone is being condescending to me on a personal level.

Walleye
08-07-13, 16:20
This thread has some info on the Carbon-15, though not absolutely specifc the Carbon-15 w/ 22LR combo:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=128323

.46caliber
08-07-13, 16:22
Nothing has gotten personal. You're getting straight spoken opinion and input on Bushmaster as a manufacturer.

I ran a quick search on the term "carbon 15" and found the thread below. That model is a plastic receiver built AR from a company that most here do not consider to build a solid aluminum receiver rifle.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=128323

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

glocktogo
08-07-13, 16:23
I HAVE read the above thread....
I HAVE read the "Bushmaster" Stickys......
And what that amounts to is a bunch of crap that has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the model I am 'thinking' about buying......
And NO ONE seems to want to ANSWER my original question, they only want to bash me for NOT reading something that I didn't know existed in the first place.......
And since "The Chart" has been removed and replaced with a bunch of gobbledy gook, that makes absolutely no sense when it comes to answering my question, it's crap and should be removed altogether and never referenced again.:mad: I just wasted half an hour reading useless information!
And the "Sticky" that is supposed to show pics of AR's doesn't even bother to name the rifles shown........Semper Phi:rolleyes:

This IS why I asked the question I did to begin with. I didn't ask for opinions about Bushmaster in general; if you just don't like BM that's fine but I don't care. I asked for SPECIFIC opinions about the Bushmaster C15 Combo only. Is there a problem with it? Does anyone have one that has an educated opinion? If BM isn't a good brand what would be?

I see that the Colt seems to be a popular brand and I will check into those.

Thank you for your responses. I'm still not OFFENDED, I'm pissed because people on these damn forums are only on here so they can behave like they are holier than thou......If you can't answer my question then bugger off! You have NO idea what I have read on this forum and what I haven't......AND if those stickys or searchs didn't answer my question I guess that's why I asked the question and started this thread.


This was the most helpful and least judgmental response I received to my question:

TehLlama

The stickies are the top list of permanently attached threads at the top of each forum.

If in doubt on an abbreviation, the search bar is your friend - just search that abbreviation, and somewhere on the first page it'll probably be spelled out. If not, google that plus AR and it will likely come up.

If you want to look at multi-use setups, the CMMG Drop-in kit, which works OK for what it is, still puts you within $100 of starting off with a Colt 6920 and the convo kit, which is an infinitely better rifle than the BM C-15 anything. I'd still say make the .22lr trainer a dedicated rifle, let that setup absorb all the accessories you no longer want on a primary rifle, and work from there. Looking at how much they want for that C-15 combo kit makes me cringe - you can start off with an excellent rifle (the 6920) and buy a .22 kit, instead of having two configurations of a rifle that is frankly worse made than a lot of airsoft hardware I own.

The reason there's concern on new people being upset, is the majority of low information AR buyers come here, get offended or assume that this site exists to make people who buy cheap hardware feel bad, and then seek advice elsewhere where the subject matter expert (SME) to clueless idiot ratio is closer to zero. Just some context on what you'll read from the stickies - the same way a four-door sedan sold for under $8000 new is intuitively not good at its job, most rifles under $900 are going to be utter crap - in the firearms industry companies get away with it because most rifles live in a safe and aren't fired, thus you get lots of errornet information that 'my rifle is perfectly reliable', which is worth as much as a car review where they've driven it around a wal-mart parking lot in first gear.

Some posters on this forum can get a little short at times (myself included). That isn't a good reason to do the same, particularly when you're new here. The specific combo kit you're asking about probably isn't listed here because long ago in a time nearly forgot, the manufacturer in question was written off entirely as not salvageable. When you know what's sub-par with your offerings and refuse to make changes, that's a sign of intent. In this case, the intent to increase profit margins at the cost of making a good product.

A LOT of manufacturers go through phases where this happens, particularly when new management or ownership shows up to run things. However, some manufacturers cut corners perpetually and this is where we're at on this thread. Now we could go into barrel metallurgy, Carpenter 158 steel HPT/MPI individually tested bolts, barrel twist rates, chrome lining, and on and on, but that's not where you're at yet. Until you do a TON of reading on this site, none of that is going do do anything but confuse you and make you ask even more questions, which have also been asked and answered repeatedly.

If you REALLY want that BM offering, then go get it and stop worrying about what others think. We hope you'll be satisfied regardless. We're not going to give it a thumbs up though, so you might as well stop beating that dead horse. Ain't...gonna...happen.

Good luck! :)

CrazyFingers
08-07-13, 16:29
I wouldn't call the responses you've received "Bushmaster haters". I think it's more that there are people here with far more experience on the AR-15/M16/M4 platform than even most LEO/.mil will have. These SMEs (Subject Matter Experts, which I am NOT) have posted many times, in many threads, over many years, patiently explaining with very specific examples and stats, what makes a quality rifle, and what makes junk (Bushmaster, DPMS, Del-Ton, Olympic, etc.)
If you're looking for a quick "should I buy this Bushmaster Carbon 15" answer, then "NO, hell no" is the response you'll get here. To understand the reasons why requires more time and research. I spent several weeks here just reading the sticky posts and searching through regular discussion threads before I really began to understand what makes a good rifle good, and what makes a bad rifle bad. It also depends on how you're going to use the rifle. You mentioned hunting and self-defense as your primary purpose. When you state that you're going to trust your life to a rifle, you are saying that you have extremely high quality requirements. That is why you get the short list of ~4 manufacturers with a proven track record in that area.
Now, if you'd said something like "I want to spend too much money on an AR-15 that doesn't come close to meeting the government Technical Data Package, and I'm only going to shoot paper targets and dirt clods", then the Bushmaster Carbon 15 would be right up at the top of the list.

Gungho
08-07-13, 16:38
Some posters on this forum can get a little short at times (myself included). That isn't a good reason to do the same, particularly when you're new here. The specific combo kit you're asking about probably isn't listed here because long ago in a time nearly forgot, the manufacturer in question was written off entirely as not salvageable. When you know what's sub-par with your offerings and refuse to make changes, that's a sign of intent. In this case, the intent to increase profit margins at the cost of making a good product.

A LOT of manufacturers go through phases where this happens, particularly when new management or ownership shows up to run things. However, some manufacturers cut corners perpetually and this is where we're at on this thread. Now we could go into barrel metallurgy, Carpenter 158 steel HPT/MPI individually tested bolts, barrel twist rates, chrome lining, and on and on, but that's not where you're at yet. Until you do a TON of reading on this site, none of that is going do do anything but confuse you and make you ask even more questions, which have also been asked and answered repeatedly.

If you REALLY want that BM offering, then go get it and stop worrying about what others think. We hope you'll be satisfied regardless. We're not going to give it a thumbs up though, so you might as well stop beating that dead horse. Ain't...gonna...happen.

Good luck! :)

Thank you!

If some would just give me an answer about the flaws in the BM, besides the lower receiver, I could have avoided all this frustration. Is the problem with the lower receiver that it's breaking from the stress of firing the weapon or because it was dropped? Specifics, that's what I was after.

Hmac
08-07-13, 16:42
never mind


good luck in your search

Gungho
08-07-13, 16:47
By "genuinely trying to help" you mean spoonfeed you the information you can't/won't get yourself? You don't get it. Nobody here wants to go back and regurgitate crap that's been brought up on this site over and over and over again.

By "haters" you mean people who don't think Bushmaster is a good firearm brand as you apparently do?

By "condescending" you mean the people who are saying "do your own ****ing research instead of asking me to do it for you?"


Man, it never fails. I suspect that you're on the wrong site. I could be wrong, but I don't think you're going to enjoy the time you spend here any more than you already have. I'm only guessing, based on having seen this exact scenario about 100 times before.

My question was PART of my research, not expecting to be spoon fed!

nateebumpo
08-07-13, 17:03
you could get a complete psa carbine and a s&w 15/22 for not a lot more than that combo, like around $300 more if you shop right. this is not a top quality 5.56 ar but its leagues ahead of any bushmaster in my opinion. for around $500 more you could get a colt 6920 and the 15/22 and either way have two dedicated guns that will last your lifetime most likely.


the top rail on the c15 poly upper coming loose/off is enough to tell me they did it wrong. not to mention the upper breaking at barrel threads and lowers snapping receiver extension lugs off. being dropped or not shouldn't matter, unless its from two or more stories high an ar shouldn't break like that. id also be deathly afraid to mortar the thing if a shell got stuck knowing I could very well end up with pieces afterwards.

glocktogo
08-07-13, 17:19
Thank you!

If some would just give me an answer about the flaws in the BM, besides the lower receiver, I could have avoided all this frustration. Is the problem with the lower receiver that it's breaking from the stress of firing the weapon or because it was dropped? Specifics, that's what I was after.

The last C-15 I inspected had rifle feed ramps, not improved M4 feed ramps. That causes problems with the nose of the bullet hitting below the feed ramp and digging into the lower part of the upper receiver. Further, the use of their proprietary material (which is not true carbon fiber composite) in the critical area where the barrel receiver extension is torqued onto the upper receiver with the barrel nut with 35-60 pound-feet of torque isn't strong enough to withstand the rigors of routine handling and firing over the expected life of the rifle. The preferred material for this application is forged 7075-T6 aluminum.

The lower receiver is the least stressed part of an AR. However, the critical point is where the receiver extension threads into the lower. Again, the BM carbon isn't as tough. While unlikely to break during firing, if you have to "mortar" the rifle in the field in the event of a stuck case in the chamber (more likely with a BM due to chamber specs and construction), you'd never want to do it with the carbon lower. It's going to break and render the rifle inoperable.

Further, the carbon receiver is going to flex. That's good on a Glock or M&P pistol, but bad on an AR. Why? The precision parts fit required to ensure safety and reliability on critical part interfaces in the AR design. It's not an inexpensive AK design with stamped steel and tons of "tolerance stacking" forgiveness. It's a much more precise and controllable piece of equipment, but only so long as you use quality components that are manufactured within tolerances.

The Holy Grail of AR manufacture is the military spec'd "Technical Data Package". The TDP is followed as much as possible in a civilian legal semi-auto AR by quality companies. Some companies offer advanced parts with more modern features, but only the good ones consider how this might alter the overall function and performance when deviating from the TDP.

Simply pit, BM doesn't do any of this. That they charge nearly as much (in some cases more) than companies that do is a slap in the face. THAT, is why BM gets dumped on. Nothing more, nothing less.

wetidlerjr
08-07-13, 17:21
My question was PART of my research, not expecting to be spoon fed!

What I found in a few minutes.

failed to feed
The upper ond lower don't fit all that well (matters to some)
Short strokes all the time with ALL ammo
cracks through the rear of the lower near where the buffer tube screws into the lower
live round had managed to jam itself with the rear of the case on top of the bolt up against the gas tube
could shoot about a 12 inch group at 100 yards when wearing a 3-9 Leupold
Carbon 15 doesn't even have a stock barrel nut.
had double-feed after double-feed after stovepipe, after FTF, after light primer strike (pistol version)


Buy what you want. I don't care.

LostinKY
08-07-13, 17:27
[QUOTE=Gungho;1715584 Originally Posted by Gungho
Thank you!

If some would just give me an answer about the flaws in the BM, besides the lower receiver, I could have avoided all this frustration. Is the problem with the lower receiver that it's breaking from the stress of firing the weapon or because it was dropped? Specifics, that's what I was after.]Thank you!

...never mind from here too

RazorBurn
08-07-13, 17:37
As I said though, IF I decide to go with the BM it will cost $1,035. That is my price range and I like the dual capability and that's why I 'was' leaning toward it. Now, not only am I rethinking purchasing the BM but I'm flustered about WHICH manufacturer to go with.
I want/need and AR......I really don't need a .22, I've got two already, I just like the versatility......knowing that if the SHTF I don't have to carry an entirely different rifle for hunting small game.

Here is a new Colt LE6920 for $1,099.00.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920

Here's a new Colt LE6920 for $995.00.

http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/CO6920.aspx

You compare that math to a Bushmaster, and I'm sure you'll understand why the Colt is the better rifle and better deal.

New Colt LE6920's can be had at my local Wal Mart for $1097.00 plus sales tax.

Gungho
08-07-13, 18:05
To those that are saying "Buy what you want I don't care" and "Never mind"; it's not that I'm not listening to you.....it's that you didn't understand or read my original question. I was looking for your opinions and reason's for those opinions.

I never asked anyone to respond to this thread; I didn't put a gun to anyone's head. And if you don't like the question why did you bother to respond in the first place?

If you're not willing to "regurgitate" your vast wealth of knowledge then why bother being on the forum? So you can talk about the weather? Had you spent as much time and energy answering my question as you did criticizing me you would have done a lot less typing. You see..I only wanted to know whether you liked it or not and why, a 'review' if you will. I wasn't expecting the level of hatred toward me personally JUST because I asked a simple question.

To those that saw fit to actually answer my question, Thank You! You have led me to some very interesting sources, that no "I wasn't able to find on my own", they will help to educate me further and THAT I really appreciate!

Dienekes
08-07-13, 18:31
Some years back I bought a BM, after having owned a Colt carbine back in the mid 80s. I am by no means unhappy with the BM as it has been a good little rifle. I did some upgrades on it, installed a decent trigger, and put an excellent optic on it. However at that time the price of Colts was coming down. I wanted a flattop and could get into one very reasonably-- so went for one. Still have and use both, and don't expect to part with either. But there is NO doubt that the Colt is the better made rifle (which your homework will establish) and it will hold its value much, much better.

I am down on CMMG and probably other drop-in conversions. Never established the exact cause for certain, but after using one with great care I wound up with a bulged barrel on the BM. I replaced it with a LW one which I wanted anyway and dumped the CMMG unit.

50+ years of shooting suggests there is no free lunch. But I could be wrong.

Gungho
08-07-13, 18:49
Some years back I bought a BM, after having owned a Colt carbine back in the mid 80s. I am by no means unhappy with the BM as it has been a good little rifle. I did some upgrades on it, installed a decent trigger, and put an excellent optic on it. However at that time the price of Colts was coming down. I wanted a flattop and could get into one very reasonably-- so went for one. Still have and use both, and don't expect to part with either. But there is NO doubt that the Colt is the better made rifle (which your homework will establish) and it will hold its value much, much better.

I am down on CMMG and probably other drop-in conversions. Never established the exact cause for certain, but after using one with great care I wound up with a bulged barrel on the BM. I replaced it with a LW one which I wanted anyway and dumped the CMMG unit.

50+ years of shooting suggests there is no free lunch. But I could be wrong.

Thank you, that's what I was looking for....

bighawk
08-07-13, 19:16
I owned a Bushmaster carbon 15 when I joined this site. Thanks to a few friends and reading numerous threads on different rifles here I have upgraded.

My best friend still currently owns one and has issues with it even after I told him about all my poor experiences.

I had at least one if not all of the following issues almost everytime I went shooting... failure to extract, failure to fire, misfeed/double feeds (about 350 rounds every 3-4 weeks for a little over a year with various types of quality ammo). I took very good care of it and it was fairly accurate. Its not the worst gun I have ever shot but all the malfunctions put its down near the bottom of my list.

After going shooting with some friends who owned BCM and LMT rifles one day I came here to read about those brands and am now getting ready to purchase my third BCM..

I'd hate to see someone spend that kind of money on that gun only to find out the same thing I did after I started really getting into the AR platform. It's low quality and it's not reliable. Good luck in your search and I hope this little bit of info is what you were looking for and helps you out.

Gungho
08-07-13, 19:39
I owned a Bushmaster carbon 15 when I joined this site. Thanks to a few friends and reading numerous threads on different rifles here I have upgraded.

My best friend still currently owns one and has issues with it even after I told him about all my poor experiences.

I had at least one if not all of the following issues almost everytime I went shooting... failure to extract, failure to fire, misfeed/double feeds (about 350 rounds every 3-4 weeks for a little over a year with various types of quality ammo). I took very good care of it and it was fairly accurate. Its not the worst gun I have ever shot but all the malfunctions put its down near the bottom of my list.

After going shooting with some friends who owned BCM and LMT rifles one day I came here to read about those brands and am now getting ready to purchase my third BCM..

I'd hate to see someone spend that kind of money on that gun only to find out the same thing I did after I started really getting into the AR platform. It's low quality and it's not reliable. Good luck in your search and I hope this little bit of info is what you were looking for and helps you out.

Thank you.

Gungho
08-07-13, 19:42
Ok, with all the GOOD advice, I am now NOT going to purchase the BM. Not sure I like the Colt platform yet though; I will keep looking.
Thank you all.

zirkdog
08-07-13, 19:54
Ok, with all the GOOD advice, I am now NOT going to purchase the BM. Not sure I like the Colt platform yet though; I will keep looking.
Thank you all.

Now that we got the first 2 pages out our system and you have moved passed the Bushie, what is it about the Colt line that doesn't work for you? what features, specs, options, etc are you looking for?

I saw that you wanted one for hunting and self-defense but didn't see much more than that. Do you want a 16" barrel or an 18" or a 20"? Heavy barrel, gov't profile, lightweight,? Are you looking for a railed fore end or stock plastic hand guards? Are you thinking about optics and want something to come prepackaged or add your own?

The Colt 6920 gets recommend 10:1 here because it is a rock solid base platform from which the sky is the limit. It also costs the same if not less than many other lower grade rifles, you just have to shop around and find prices.

I'm not savvy on .22 uppers so I can't add much there, but with the price availability of .22 ammo, I say just buy a regular AR and worry about the .22 upper later when you can save the $$$ for one.

Col_Crocs
08-07-13, 20:10
Thank you for your Informative Post. I will be checking into these.

Copping an attitude isn't my purpose. My purpose is to get all the damn haters to shut up! Like telling me to read, I have read and haven't received ANY answers to my original question, all I see is a bunch of BM haters bashing me for my ignorance and a VERY FEW "genuinely" trying to help. I'm sorry, but I'm not a door mat, and I will not sit silently when someone is being condescending to me on a personal level.

If this was already addressed halfway down page 2 or on page 3, my apologies but to give you a straight answer as to why not...
-BMs are generally 1/9 as opposed to the more ideal 1/7
- tight chambers. Despite being labelled 5.56, they are not. Theyre somewhere short of 5.56 leading to popped primers when firing 5.56 ammo -- personal experience
- overgassed. Their gasports are too large for what is needed.
- batch testing. Barrels are supposed to be individually high pressure tested and then magnetically inspected for cracks.
- their BCGs are also batch tested and from reports, have improperly staked carrier keys.-- this is critical
- commercial RE : search for the differences between commercial and milspec REs
- non-F marked FSBs, which you need to be able to zero with a rear Bck up sight on flat top upper. They make up for this with a taller post. Laziness at its best.
- not sure if this is still current but m4 feedramps did not used to be standard
Im sure i missed a bunch but these are just some of the reasons to pass on them and the above is not isolated to their carbon stuff either, but BM in general.
Im not, not recommending you get a BCM, DD, noveske or any weapon from one of the top tier manufacturers but a Colt 6920 would be a great start. It comes in complete up-to-spec package and in a basic config which i recommend you start from. Shoot it stock, learn it, identify your own needs and preferences from experience, and purchase accessories accordingly.

wetidlerjr
08-07-13, 20:23
To those that are saying "Buy what you want I don't care" and "Never mind"; it's not that I'm not listening to you.....it's that you didn't understand or read my original question. I was looking for your opinions and reason's for those opinions...

I understand and did read your question. That is why I listed problems that Carbon 15 owners have had that I found in a simple search. I don't have opinions or reasons because I don't now and I have never owned the rifle in question.
But, in the end, I don't care as it's not my rifle, I won't be paying for yours and I won't get butthurt no matter what you buy. Trust me, we are really trying to help you but this isn't the "feelgood' site. If you need to feel good, I suggest TOS as it is readily apparent that this site won't make you happy.
Have a nice evening!

Gungho
08-07-13, 20:51
Now that we got the first 2 pages out our system and you have moved passed the Bushie, what is it about the Colt line that doesn't work for you? what features, specs, options, etc are you looking for?

I saw that you wanted one for hunting and self-defense but didn't see much more than that. Do you want a 16" barrel or an 18" or a 20"? Heavy barrel, gov't profile, lightweight,? Are you looking for a railed fore end or stock plastic hand guards? Are you thinking about optics and want something to come prepackaged or add your own?

The Colt 6920 gets recommend 10:1 here because it is a rock solid base platform from which the sky is the limit. It also costs the same if not less than many other lower grade rifles, you just have to shop around and find prices.

I'm not savvy on .22 uppers so I can't add much there, but with the price availability of .22 ammo, I say just buy a regular AR and worry about the .22 upper later when you can save the $$$ for one.

Exactly!

Now, as far as what I'm wanting. I'm rather ignorant about the tech terms. And I googled 'diagram of AR 15 5.56' and they wanted $50 to print/view it, and I don't understand how to put an image on here but I'm going to try:
http://http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/colt-ar-15-m4-patrol-rifles-new-gun-review/
http://www.bushmaster.com/firearms/carbon_15.asp
If you'll notice the firearm in the middle of the first pic and the C15 at the top of the second pic....Is the part surrounding the barrel called a fore-grip? Are those models sporting "quad rails"? If so, that is the over all 'style' that I'm looking for with a 16-18" barrel. I want to be able to adapt though, so it has to be as accurate at 100 yds. as it is at ten. So, yes, I want optics but I want to be able to use the "iron sights" as well. I want to be able to attach accessories to the 'rails', Laser, Flash light, you know, just stuff. It must be a 5.56! Like I said though, the .22 is just a luxury that I can do without for now but it too must be adaptable to a .22.....

Thank you for the question.

CrazyFingers
08-07-13, 21:11
Is the part surrounding the barrel called a fore-grip? Are those models sporting "quad rails"?
"Handguard"


If so, that is the over all 'style' that I'm looking for with a 16-18" barrel. I want to be able to adapt though, so it has to be as accurate at 100 yds. as it is at ten.

That statement makes no sense.


So, yes, I want optics but I want to be able to use the "iron sights" as well. I want to be able to attach accessories to the 'rails', Laser, Flash light, you know, just stuff.
You're putting the cart before the horse, and it makes you sound like you want a toy more than a rifle. Need drives gear. Without owning and shooting the rifle, how do you know you need "stuff"?
That being said, any of the rifles that I and others have recommended can be modified to any configuration you can dream of.


It must be a 5.56! Like I said though, the .22 is just a luxury that I can do without for now but it too must be adaptable to a .22.....

My most earnest piece of advice: If what you really want is an AR-pattern .22, then you want a Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757786_-1_757784_757784_image). No really, that's what you want. It's even polymer.:D

RazorBurn
08-07-13, 21:19
My Colt LE6920 has went through a few steps of progression. I've slowly made it what I've wanted over the past year and a half. All it lacks is an optic, and it will be getting an Aimpoint Pro at Christmas time. I'll add some pictures of it's progression to this post so you can see how it started out, and what it's become. It certainly hasn't been hard to tailor it to my wants and needs.

Gungho
08-07-13, 21:22
"Handguard"



That statement makes no sense.


You're putting the cart before the horse, and it makes you sound like you want a toy more than a rifle. Need drives gear. Without owning and shooting the rifle, how do you know you need "stuff"?

I guess a person isn't allowed to dream...that's what drives the economy!



My most earnest piece of advice: If what you really want is an AR-pattern .22, then you want a Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757786_-1_757784_757784_image). No really, that's what you want. It's even polymer.:D

Funny, that's what I've already said, I have already purchased a POS .22 that you have described, and I like versatility, I'm sorry but that is just one of my desires. You know, if I have to bug out, I will have the ability to Kill small animals without blasting a squirrel to pieces with a 5.56/.223 (you see I've been told that a rifle that is chambered for 5.56 WILL chamber a .223 as well, but the reverse is not true, so there is a built in versatility).

thopkins22
08-07-13, 21:35
Funny, that's what I've already said, I have already purchased a POS .22 that you have described, and I like versatility, I'm sorry but that is just one of my desires. You know, if I have to bug out, I will have the ability to Kill small animals without blasting a squirrel to pieces with a 5.56/.223 (you see I've been told that a rifle that is chambered for 5.56 WILL chamber a .223 as well, but the reverse is not true, so there is a built in versatility).

Understood in that sometimes you want what you want for whatever reasons. Just feel compelled to point out that there really isn't anything in the same league as the M&P 15-22, so don't equate it with your previously owned Mossberg.

You've been told sort of correct about 5.56 vs. .223.

You'll get both types of ammunition to chamber just fine in either type of chamber. The issue lies with whether or not the chamber will accommodate for the higher pressure of 5.56x45 or not. But the lesson you picked up was correct. Get the 5.56x45 chamber...and don't trust that every manufacturer who stamps that on the barrel actually means it.

The recommended manufacturers you've seen in this thread and others will have true 5.56 chambers...others(BushMaster etc...) may or may not regardless of what's on the barrel and literature.

Gungho
08-07-13, 21:42
My Colt LE6920 has went through a few steps of progression. I've slowly made it what I've wanted over the past year and a half. All it lacks is an optic, and it will be getting an Aimpoint Pro at Christmas time. I'll add some pictures of it's progression to this post so you can see how it started out, and what it's become. It certainly hasn't been hard to tailor it to my wants and needs.

I would like to buy one that is already to stage 3 of your pics, BUT I have no problem starting out with a good basic model and designing it's 'look' and adaptability myself. It was just a matter of finding out that I can do what ever I want to with the Colt 6920. Now it's just a matter of finding a dealer in my area that has access to one.

VIP3R 237
08-07-13, 21:43
EDIT: I see you have moved on from the Carbon 15, but i'll leave this here in case you have 2nd thoughts about it. ;)

Before I started working at my current job where I fix guns for a living I worked at a big box store that sold a ton of these carbon 15's. We also have a ton come back for problems, and I still have them come in for problems. These are some of the more common ones:

The screws for the optic rail thread directly into the polymer upper, these have a tendency to often strip out which means your rail and optic/buis are loose which means you have no way of keeping a zero

When dropped it is common to have the force of the impact break the lower.

Where the receiver extension threads into the lower can strip. Also when you put the lower in a block and try to torque down on a castle nut the entire receiver can flex with little force, you do not see this happen with a forged lower.

When you release the rear takedown pin if you allow the upper to rotate up and smack the lower the force can rip the front takedown pin tabs off.

It is very easy to accidentally tap the take down pins hard enough to break the receiver by pushing the detents through the lower

Many current railed hand guards are not compatible with the carbon 15 uppers because the thread pitch is different than the standard.

The fact that Bushmaster overall has a bad reputation for poor materials and manufacturing processes does not help.

OP please do not throw your money away on this. There are so many better options out there.

thopkins22
08-07-13, 21:44
I would like to buy one that is already to stage 3 of your pics, BUT I have no problem starting out with a good basic model and designing it's 'look' and adaptability myself. It was just a matter of finding out that I can do what ever I want to with the Colt 6920. Now it's just a matter of finding a dealer in my area that has access to one.

If there's a good local dealer with one then that's great. If not, find a dealer with a cheap or reasonable transfer fee...and buy it online from Grant or whomever you fancy.

Gungho
08-07-13, 21:53
EDIT: I see you have moved on from the Carbon 15, but i'll leave this here in case you have 2nd thoughts about it. ;)

Before I started working at my current job where I fix guns for a living I worked at a big box store that sold a ton of these carbon 15's. We also have a ton come back for problems, and I still have them come in for problems. These are some of the more common ones:

The screws for the optic rail thread directly into the polymer upper, these have a tendency to often strip out which means your rail and optic/buis are loose which means you have no way of keeping a zero

When dropped it is common to have the force of the impact break the lower.

Where the receiver extension threads into the lower can strip. Also when you put the lower in a block and try to torque down on a castle nut the entire receiver can flex with little force, you do not see this happen with a forged lower.

When you release the rear takedown pin if you allow the upper to rotate up and smack the lower the force can rip the front takedown pin tabs off.

It is very easy to accidentally tap the take down pins hard enough to break the receiver by pushing the detents through the lower

Many current railed hand guards are not compatible with the carbon 15 uppers because the thread pitch is different than the standard.

The fact that Bushmaster overall has a bad reputation for poor materials and manufacturing processes does not help.

OP please do not throw your money away on this. There are so many better options out there.

Thank you.

As a Gunsmith, what is your opinion of the Colt 6920? Great, Good, Fair, Bad?

Would you like to tell me some of the problems you may have come across with that model?

VIP3R 237
08-07-13, 22:01
Thank you.

As a Gunsmith, what is your opinion of the Colt 6920? Great, Good, Fair, Bad?

Would you like to tell me some of the problems you may have come across with that model?

Well I have 2 in my safe at home if that's any indication of what I think. For the price you can't get better, it is a solid quality carbine that out of the box there is nothing to worry about. Now as with any rifle you do want to go over and inspect before buying if that is an option, I was working on one today that had some QC problems but they were an easy fix.

If you do not have the option of inspecting the rifle in person I would recommend purchasing from a reputable retailer such as Grant from G&R, if by some chance you do run into problems he will take care of you.

.46caliber
08-07-13, 22:46
I would like to buy one that is already to stage 3 of your pics, BUT I have no problem starting out with a good basic model and designing it's 'look' and adaptability myself. It was just a matter of finding out that I can do what ever I want to with the Colt 6920. Now it's just a matter of finding a dealer in my area that has access to one.

The Magpul MOE handguard, in pic 2 and 3, can mount a light or laser or both. In the 3rd pic there are only 5 small and relatively inexpensive changes that were made from its original state. Removal of carry handle, addition of rear flip-up iron sight, Magpul handguard, Magpul grip and Magpul vertical grip.

I would suggest a slow pace with the add-ons. Get a high quality, basic rifle and shoot it. Get comfortable with it and maybe take some Carbine/Defensive Shooting classes. As you spend time with it you'll learn what you need to change to accomplish all the roles you've set for a rifle. It will save you money, and weight, in the long run by not adding a bunch of peripherals you don't really need.


Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

TehLlama
08-08-13, 01:44
Thank you.

As a Gunsmith, what is your opinion of the Colt 6920? Great, Good, Fair, Bad?

Would you like to tell me some of the problems you may have come across with that model?

I'm no professional gunsmith, but you can think of it as a Toyota HiLux from the early 90's. Not a ton of features, but it's the benchmark by which anything can be measured for lifetime of use in rugged environments. There is a very short list of companies that can provide comparable or better rifles (better meaning they include intelligent added factory features or slight product evolutions and specializations which are helpful to end users - BCM, DD, LMT, KAC, Noveske), but all those are going to be around that price or more expensive - and for the last few years, if anything was sold at a new price lower than a used 6920, it's an absolute bet the cheaper rifle cut corners to get there, usually stuff that negatively affects function. If you need a rifle that does everything well, the 6920 is the answer.

Why you'll see it recommended is that it's from the most consistent brand, built from a proprietary TDP which is THE correct way to build AR's, it's the most affordable rifle that will have high mean rounds bet ween failure, and mostly it isn't possible to buy the 'wrong' one - the 6920 is the most available and most reasonable model to get among them.


As far as being terse - I'm the sort of guy who blows off MD's when I tell them it's easily found with google, so I know my standards can be unreasonable, but a lot of what you're researching can be found, if you're judicious about sources.
On the topic of judicious about sources, whatever local source you have is only about half an hour of reading from good sources ahead of where you're at now - spend a week on this site, watch some YouTube videos from CREDIBLE trainers, and then read some more (on average, each hour spend reading is $50 on dumb parts avoided. This estimate is low-ball).

So, abuse Google Site Search (the orange search doo-hickey here, or just open up google and add ' site:www.m4carbine.net '), and you'll get access to more information than you can take in with under a week of time - but that's a good thing.

glocktogo
08-08-13, 02:23
(on average, each hour spend reading is $50 on dumb parts avoided. This estimate is low-ball).

This is priceless advice right here.

You;re right, the Mossberg .22 offering is complete crap. The M&P 15-22 is the benchmark for AR styled .22's. Throw a Primary Arms micro on it and call it done. You can get decent conversions but they sometimes take quite a bit of tuning to work properly. I have a dedicated .22lr upper with a modified Ciener conversion kit utilizing a cut down Ruger 10/22 barrel. It too a LOT of tuning to run properly.

As for the 5.56 AR, the pendulum has swung several times over the years. Right now in 5.56, the most common and preferred setup if you only have one AR is a 16" mid or lightweight ("LW") profile, chrome lined, hammer forged (nice, but not necessary) with a 1in7 twist rate and true 5.56 chamber. top it with a red dot optic such as the Aimpoint Micro or Pro and use a fixed "F" marked FSB (front sight base) and fixed rear like a Daniel Defense A1.5 or similar. Handguards are personal preference. Mil-std 1913 picatinny rails have been preferred for a long time, but that pendulum has swung to "slick" forends with rail attachment points. Everything you need and nothing you don't. The new hotness is rails like Vltor, Noveske, Fortis, Geissele, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keymod

If you're ever going to mount a magnified optic on the gun, you'll want folding backup iron sights (BIUS) such as Troy or Magpul make. Make sure you get a mil-spec vs. commercial stock tube (correctly called the receiver extension or "RE" for short.). This will allow you the greatest number of stock options with the best fit.

Here are a couple of different way you can go:

First up is a Noveske lower/BCM upper rifle. The lower has a mil-spec RE with a Magpul CTR stock. The lower parts kit is Daniel Defense with a Geissele SSA trigger. The upper is a LW mid-gas 14.5" BCM with pinned BattleComp 1.5 (makes it legal minimum length). The mid-length gas system offers a smoother recoil impulse than a carbine length (9" vs. 7"), but isn't completely necessary. It's just a nice feature to have. If you're getting a carbile length, it's critical to get it from a good source such as Colt, Daniel Defense or BCM. They are correctly gassed for optimum function without excess wear and tear. Many low quality AR's are overgassed intentionally to make up for low quality ammo and poor maintenance by the end user.

Forened is an inexpensive MOE, utilizing an Impact Weapons Components QD sling stud and Surefire 600 Scout mount. It's light, sturdy and a lot less expensive than most free float forends. All in all, it's a tidy package that works every time.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG0798_zpsced01d1f.jpg

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG0797_zps21bf4d3d.jpg

Next up is a Noveske Rogue Hunter 18". This is the precision rig for longer ranges. It's heavier and more accurate. It will also run as fast as you can keep up with accuracy. LOTS of mods and upgrades on this rig, so I'm not going to list them all as you may not start out this way. This total rig would run about $3,500, without the suppressor.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG0801_zpsbd5159b1.jpg

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG0800_zps38bf9a7c.jpg


So that's why it's so important to go research each segment of the rifle for what will work best in your intended role for a reasonable cost. The more time you spend researching, the more happy you'll be with your choices.

Gungho
08-08-13, 09:10
This is priceless advice right here.

You;re right, the Mossberg .22 offering is complete crap. The M&P 15-22 is the benchmark for AR styled .22's. Throw a Primary Arms micro on it and call it done. You can get decent conversions but they sometimes take quite a bit of tuning to work properly. I have a dedicated .22lr upper with a modified Ciener conversion kit utilizing a cut down Ruger 10/22 barrel. It too a LOT of tuning to run properly.

As for the 5.56 AR, the pendulum has swung several times over the years. Right now in 5.56, the most common and preferred setup if you only have one AR is a 16" mid or lightweight ("LW") profile, chrome lined, hammer forged (nice, but not necessary) with a 1in7 twist rate and true 5.56 chamber. top it with a red dot optic such as the Aimpoint Micro or Pro and use a fixed "F" marked FSB (front sight base) and fixed rear like a Daniel Defense A1.5 or similar. Handguards are personal preference. Mil-std 1913 picatinny rails have been preferred for a long time, but that pendulum has swung to "slick" forends with rail attachment points. Everything you need and nothing you don't. The new hotness is rails like Vltor, Noveske, Fortis, Geissele, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keymod

If you're ever going to mount a magnified optic on the gun, you'll want folding backup iron sights (BIUS) such as Troy or Magpul make. Make sure you get a mil-spec vs. commercial stock tube (correctly called the receiver extension or "RE" for short.). This will allow you the greatest number of stock options with the best fit.

Here are a couple of different way you can go:

First up is a Noveske lower/BCM upper rifle. The lower has a mil-spec RE with a Magpul CTR stock. The lower parts kit is Daniel Defense with a Geissele SSA trigger. The upper is a LW mid-gas 14.5" BCM with pinned BattleComp 1.5 (makes it legal minimum length). The mid-length gas system offers a smoother recoil impulse than a carbine length (9" vs. 7"), but isn't completely necessary. It's just a nice feature to have. If you're getting a carbile length, it's critical to get it from a good source such as Colt, Daniel Defense or BCM. They are correctly gassed for optimum function without excess wear and tear. Many low quality AR's are overgassed intentionally to make up for low quality ammo and poor maintenance by the end user.

Forened is an inexpensive MOE, utilizing an Impact Weapons Components QD sling stud and Surefire 600 Scout mount. It's light, sturdy and a lot less expensive than most free float forends. All in all, it's a tidy package that works every time.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG0798_zpsced01d1f.jpg

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG0797_zps21bf4d3d.jpg

Next up is a Noveske Rogue Hunter 18". This is the precision rig for longer ranges. It's heavier and more accurate. It will also run as fast as you can keep up with accuracy. LOTS of mods and upgrades on this rig, so I'm not going to list them all as you may not start out this way. This total rig would run about $3,500, without the suppressor.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG0801_zpsbd5159b1.jpg

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG0800_zps38bf9a7c.jpg


So that's why it's so important to go research each segment of the rifle for what will work best in your intended role for a reasonable cost. The more time you spend researching, the more happy you'll be with your choices.

Thank You Very Much! You have given me a lot of good info and a lot to think about and look (research) for before making my ultimate decision.

Gungho
08-08-13, 09:38
I'm no professional gunsmith, but you can think of it as a Toyota HiLux from the early 90's. Not a ton of features, but it's the benchmark by which anything can be measured for lifetime of use in rugged environments. There is a very short list of companies that can provide comparable or better rifles (better meaning they include intelligent added factory features or slight product evolutions and specializations which are helpful to end users - BCM, DD, LMT, KAC, Noveske), but all those are going to be around that price or more expensive - and for the last few years, if anything was sold at a new price lower than a used 6920, it's an absolute bet the cheaper rifle cut corners to get there, usually stuff that negatively affects function. If you need a rifle that does everything well, the 6920 is the answer.

Why you'll see it recommended is that it's from the most consistent brand, built from a proprietary TDP which is THE correct way to build AR's, it's the most affordable rifle that will have high mean rounds bet ween failure, and mostly it isn't possible to buy the 'wrong' one - the 6920 is the most available and most reasonable model to get among them.


As far as being terse - I'm the sort of guy who blows off MD's when I tell them it's easily found with google, so I know my standards can be unreasonable, but a lot of what you're researching can be found, if you're judicious about sources.
On the topic of judicious about sources, whatever local source you have is only about half an hour of reading from good sources ahead of where you're at now - spend a week on this site, watch some YouTube videos from CREDIBLE trainers, and then read some more (on average, each hour spend reading is $50 on dumb parts avoided. This estimate is low-ball).

So, abuse Google Site Search (the orange search doo-hickey here, or just open up google and add ' site:www.m4carbine.net '), and you'll get access to more information than you can take in with under a week of time - but that's a good thing.

Thank you for the input......my problem is that I never know the right question to ask 'google' to get the information I'm looking for. For instance: When all this began, I tried typing, "Bushmaster C15 combo reviews" and wound up finding only forums when all I was looking for is people that had had one that had posted reviews about their experiences. As I say, I just never know the right question to ask to get me to the information I'm looking for, and if it doesn't bring up forums it brings up dealers. I know this is a problem with me and not this site or the internet. That's why I started this thread, I needed some answers and guidance.

Caduceus
08-08-13, 10:09
you could get a complete psa carbine and a s&w 15/22 for not a lot more than that combo, like around $300 more if you shop right. this is not a top quality 5.56 ar but its leagues ahead of any bushmaster in my opinion. for around $500 more you could get a colt 6920 and the 15/22 and either way have two dedicated guns that will last your lifetime most likely.


the top rail on the c15 poly upper coming loose/off is enough to tell me they did it wrong. not to mention the upper breaking at barrel threads and lowers snapping receiver extension lugs off. being dropped or not shouldn't matter, unless its from two or more stories high an ar shouldn't break like that. id also be deathly afraid to mortar the thing if a shell got stuck knowing I could very well end up with pieces afterwards.
I was thinking the same thing ...
PSA has complete lowers for $200. Add a BCM upper from the equipment exchange for around $4-500 (or PSA from the website for the same). A CMMG dedicated upper for around $300 (or a .22lr conversion kit for $100). That puts you right around $1000 for 2 uppers on the same lower; I have the CMMG upper and love it.

I suspect one of the reasons you're not hearing much real feedback on the BM C15, specifically, is because so many people here feel it's a POS and not worth the money. In other words, no one here has tried it, because they're not willing to stoop "low enough" to buy it in the first place.

There are certainly other websites dedicated to the AR platform that tend to be less discerning and a larger population of readers. Perhaps they could offer more specific examples?

Edit: though I finally read page 3 ... and see it's kind of a moot point. If you do go for a dedicate AR-15/22, the S&W is a solid choice. However (and correct me if I'm wrong), I don't think that it can be used with a regular 5.56 upper. Just something to think about.

Clem
08-08-13, 11:41
I would like to buy one that is already to stage 3 of your pics, BUT I have no problem starting out with a good basic model and designing it's 'look' and adaptability myself. It was just a matter of finding out that I can do what ever I want to with the Colt 6920. Now it's just a matter of finding a dealer in my area that has access to one.


It seems like you like the magpul goodies on there.
The 6920 also comes in this version.

G&R has them for 1150
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LE6920MP-B

DSG has them for 1095
http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/COLE6920MP-B.aspx

CrazyFingers
08-08-13, 11:52
If you do go for a dedicate AR-15/22, the S&W is a solid choice. However (and correct me if I'm wrong), I don't think that it can be used with a regular 5.56 upper. Just something to think about.
That is correct, the 15-22 upper and lower are slightly different in size and the pivot/take down pins are spaced slightly differently, to prevent someone putting a 5.56 upper on it and blowing the 15-22 lower to smithereens. Since the 15-22 is a blowback .22, it has a polymer fake receiver extension that has a molded solid end where the buffer would go. Imagine what would happen if you could put a real 5.56 upper on it and pulled the trigger. However, you can use all AR-15 mil-spec stocks, pistol grips, and even triggers in the 15-22, as those parts are the same size and spec.
The Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 is definitely the best dedicated AR-pattern .22 rifle (in my opinion). It was designed from the start as a .22 AR, and therefor avoids some of the issues that .22 conversions and .22 uppers have.
First, if you use a drop-in .22 conversion in a standard AR, your accuracy is going to be terrible. Firing a 36-40gr .22 LR round through a 1/7 twist 5.56 barrel means you'll be doing good to get a shotgun-like pattern at 25m. The 15-22 has the proper 1/15 twist for a .22LR projectile. This leaves a dedicated .22LR upper for a standard AR lower. From what I've read, these can require significant fiddling to run reliably, and additional parts if you want the bolt to lock back after the last shot or if you want the bolt release to work and be more than a decorative piece. If you search, you can also find a 15-22 for close to the price of a dedicated .22 upper, and you will then have 2 fully functional rifles, instead of 1.5 rifles. This also avoids .22LR gunk from coating the internals of your 5.56 lower.
This is why I bought a 15-22 to go with my BCM. Personally, I believe it was the best choice for functionality and economy.

Caduceus
08-08-13, 12:55
That is correct, the 15-22 upper and lower are slightly different in size and the pivot/take down pins are spaced slightly differently, to prevent someone putting a 5.56 upper on it and blowing the 15-22 lower to smithereens. Since the 15-22 is a blowback .22, it has a polymer fake receiver extension that has a molded solid end where the buffer would go. Imagine what would happen if you could put a real 5.56 upper on it and pulled the trigger. However, you can use all AR-15 mil-spec stocks, pistol grips, and even triggers in the 15-22, as those parts are the same size and spec.
The Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 is definitely the best dedicated AR-pattern .22 rifle (in my opinion). It was designed from the start as a .22 AR, and therefor avoids some of the issues that .22 conversions and .22 uppers have.
First, if you use a drop-in .22 conversion in a standard AR, your accuracy is going to be terrible. Firing a 36-40gr .22 LR round through a 1/7 twist 5.56 barrel means you'll be doing good to get a shotgun-like pattern at 25m. The 15-22 has the proper 1/15 twist for a .22LR projectile. This leaves a dedicated .22LR upper for a standard AR lower. From what I've read, these can require significant fiddling to run reliably, and additional parts if you want the bolt to lock back after the last shot or if you want the bolt release to work and be more than a decorative piece. If you search, you can also find a 15-22 for close to the price of a dedicated .22 upper, and you will then have 2 fully functional rifles, instead of 1.5 rifles. This also avoids .22LR gunk from coating the internals of your 5.56 lower.
This is why I bought a 15-22 to go with my BCM. Personally, I believe it was the best choice for functionality and economy.

I've heard the same about the uppers. The CMMG is a 1/16 twist. I think they now have a bolt-hold open device, but I haven't tried it. Mags are a bit pricey, but same as the S&W. BTW, there are some other dedicated uppers out there (I think Colt even has one), just CMMG is the one I have.

Gungho
08-08-13, 13:19
LOL! Sorry for comparing the S&W 15/22 to the POS Mossberg International 715.....I now know that the S&W is a superior rifle in construction alone. I'm actively looking for a dealer in MO that can get ahold of a Colt LE6920MP-B and give me pricing. So far I'm only finding one dealer up around KC. I've never dealt with a "transfer" procedure so I'll have to figure that out now too. But thank you all for your input and advice, you've been very helpful.....

Ok, so I've found a dealer that say's he can order the Colt at any time, and wants $1,280 w/$130 off for a cash sale, so $1,150, that's only about $120 more than I would have paid for the BM C15 combo. Q. Is this a good deal? or can I do better?

Grand58742
08-08-13, 13:27
I've never dealt with a "transfer" procedure so I'll have to figure that out now too. But thank you all for your input and advice, you've been very helpful.....

Here's one site that shows available FFL dealers in the US:

http://www.gunbroker.com/ffl/dealernetwork.aspx

Find an FFL on the list, find out what their transfer fees are (before you commit as there are some that can be shady) and have them send their FFL paperwork to whomever you happen to buy from. They get shipped the rifle in question and you fill out the 4473 through them.