View Full Version : LMT vs Noveske - KISS m4geries...
I'm still in the process of picking out my first AR, and I think I've finally come to the conclusion that I will be happiest going with as high a quality gun as I can afford. Right now, that limit is about $1,400, though I certainly don't need to spend that much if I can be convinced that I can still get the quality I'm looking for at a lower price. I'm not interested in getting a Colt, so please, no replies telling me about how Colt is better than everything else, etc, etc... - thanks!
I am not likely to ever put anything more than a light, probably (though not definitely) a red dot optic, and possibly a vertical fore grip on it (I plan on getting at least one more AR, so this will remain my 'backup' KISS gun), so I believe I don't need any kind of full-on rail system. I definitely won't have an optic right away, so I do need some type of BUIS. And, I definitely want a mid-length gas system with a 16" barrel (i.e. nothing permanently attached to the end of the barrel).
The two I'm currently most enamored with are LMT & Noveske. In looking at prices, both at G&R Tactical and elsewhere, it looks like the LMT has the Noveske beat on price. But, when looking at pictures of both, it seems that the LMT doesn't come with a BUIS. Is this true? If yes, then there goes the price difference, right?
Also, is it even possible to get the LMT in a mid-length gas system?
Another concern for me is cash. If possible, I'd prefer to get just the complete lower before I leave Mississippi (moving to Minnesota at the end of July) and get the upper after the move. It should be easy to find an LMT lower, but I haven't been able to find any Noveske complete lowers anywhere online. If they don't exist, will there be any issues if I put a Noveske complete upper onto an LMT lower? If I mix LMT lower with Noveske upper, how does this affect my ability to get any warranty support on either?
What else do I need to consider here? Any other high-quality brands I should be looking into? (Obviously, "high quality" means "LMT or Noveske quality" for my purposes...)
Thanks for any input y'all can provide - I appreciate it very much!
I'm still in the process of picking out my first AR, and I think I've finally come to the conclusion that I will be happiest going with as high a quality gun as I can afford. Right now, that limit is about $1,400, though I certainly don't need to spend that much if I can be convinced that I can still get the quality I'm looking for at a lower price. I'm not interested in getting a Colt, so please, no replies telling me about how Colt is better than everything else, etc, etc... - thanks!
Get a Colt (just kidding). :D
I am not likely to ever put anything more than a light, probably (though not definitely) a red dot optic, and possibly a vertical fore grip on it (I plan on getting at least one more AR, so this will remain my 'backup' KISS gun), so I believe I don't need any kind of full-on rail system. I definitely won't have an optic right away, so I do need some type of BUIS. And, I definitely want a mid-length gas system with a 16" barrel (i.e. nothing permanently attached to the end of the barrel).
If you want a Middy, then that leaves LMT off the list.
The two I'm currently most enamored with are LMT & Noveske. In looking at prices, both at G&R Tactical and elsewhere, it looks like the LMT has the Noveske beat on price. But, when looking at pictures of both, it seems that the LMT doesn't come with a BUIS. Is this true? If yes, then there goes the price difference, right?
LMT complete AR's from the factory come with fixed BUIS's.
Also, is it even possible to get the LMT in a mid-length gas system?
Another concern for me is cash. If possible, I'd prefer to get just the complete lower before I leave Mississippi (moving to Minnesota at the end of July) and get the upper after the move. It should be easy to find an LMT lower, but I haven't been able to find any Noveske complete lowers anywhere online. If they don't exist, will there be any issues if I put a Noveske complete upper onto an LMT lower? If I mix LMT lower with Noveske upper, how does this affect my ability to get any warranty support on either?
We sell Noveske lowers stripped so you can "have it your way."
You can put an LMT upper on a Noveske lower and vice versa. It does not do anything to warrany support.
What else do I need to consider here? Any other high-quality brands I should be looking into? (Obviously, "high quality" means "LMT or Noveske quality" for my purposes...)
Thanks for any input y'all can provide - I appreciate it very much!
If you want the best quality Mid-length barrel on the market, wait for the Noveske N4 (middy) to come out in May. This is the one I would wait for.
C4
If you want a Middy, then that leaves LMT off the list.
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We sell Noveske lowers stripped so you can "have it your way."
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If you want the best quality Mid-length barrel on the market, wait for the Noveske N4 (middy) to come out in May. This is the one I would wait for.
C4
Grant-
That is the info I was looking for - thanks! But that (inevitably?) leads to more questions...
1. How much is the Noveske stripped lower?
2. If I can identify all the parts I want to make the stripped lower 'complete' before I order it, can you put it all together for me? Again, this is my first AR and I'd prefer to make sure it all works properly... :D
3. Will I be able to get the Noveske middy in the "basic" configuration? I've seen the N4 Light Carbine Basic Upper listed at $895 (Noveske's web site) - would it basically be the same but with the 16" mid-length barrel & longer hand guards? I really don't want to bust my $1,400 budget, and less is always better!
4. How can I go about finding the 'best' (i.e. cheapest) FFL dealer in my area?
5. I won't actually have the funds for the upper until at least August, so waiting for the 16" Noveske is no problem, but I want the lower before I leave MS in July. How long would it take to get once I place an order?
Thanks again Grant!
-------------------------------------
For everyone else - don't let my apparent decision to go with the Noveske dissuade you from suggesting other high quality mid-length options. This won't be my last AR, so even if I don't take your suggestions for this one, you might help me find my next one... :p
Grant-
That is the info I was looking for - thanks! But that (inevitably?) leads to more questions...
1. How much is the Noveske stripped lower?
2. If I can identify all the parts I want to make the stripped lower 'complete' before I order it, can you put it all together for me? Again, this is my first AR and I'd prefer to make sure it all works properly... :D
3. Will I be able to get the Noveske middy in the "basic" configuration? I've seen the N4 Light Carbine Basic Upper listed at $895 (Noveske's web site) - would it basically be the same but with the 16" mid-length barrel & longer hand guards? I really don't want to bust my $1,400 budget, and less is always better!
4. How can I go about finding the 'best' (i.e. cheapest) FFL dealer in my area?
5. I won't actually have the funds for the upper until at least August, so waiting for the 16" Noveske is no problem, but I want the lower before I leave MS in July. How long would it take to get once I place an order?
Thanks again Grant!
-------------------------------------
For everyone else - don't let my apparent decision to go with the Noveske dissuade you from suggesting other high quality mid-length options. This won't be my last AR, so even if I don't take your suggestions for this one, you might help me find my next one... :p
1. $135
2. Yes. We stock CMT and LMT LPK's.
3. Yes.
4. Call around and ask them what their transfer fee is.
5. About 1 week if the lowers remain in stock (selling fast).
Mid-length options coming out shortly:
ADS
Daniel Defense
BCM (late summer we hope)
C4
2. Yes. We stock CMT and LMT LPK's.
C4
I was able to find the CMT lower parts kit on G&R Tactical, but I didn't see the LMT kit - how much does that run? And, based on the picture of the CMT kit, it obviously doesn't include a stock. So, to build up a stripped lower, I need a stock, a lower parts kit, and what else...
Thanks again for the help! This has been a huge learning curve just to get to the point where I can ask these questions, and I really appreciate you taking the time to help get me 'over the hump' so to speak, so that I can finally go from thinking about buying an AR, to actually buying one!
I was able to find the CMT lower parts kit on G&R Tactical, but I didn't see the LMT kit - how much does that run? And, based on the picture of the CMT kit, it obviously doesn't include a stock. So, to build up a stripped lower, I need a stock, a lower parts kit, and what else...
Thanks again for the help! This has been a huge learning curve just to get to the point where I can ask these questions, and I really appreciate you taking the time to help get me 'over the hump' so to speak, so that I can finally go from thinking about buying an AR, to actually buying one!
Complete LMT kits (with trigger group) run about $152. No stock comes with either kit.
Stock kits can be found in all different price ranges. We sell everything from BCM kits to LMT to our using the Magpul CTR.
No problem about the questions. Knowledge is power and will keep you from buying an AR that you will later regret.
C4
Complete LMT kits (with trigger group) run about $152. No stock comes with either kit.
Stock kits can be found in all different price ranges. We sell everything from BCM kits to LMT to our using the Magpul CTR.
No problem about the questions. Knowledge is power and will keep you from buying an AR that you will later regret.
C4
OK, just so I'm clear - I'll need a stripped lower, an LPK, and a stock kit. Anything else?
Does the stock kit come with a buffer? I'm still not completely clear on which types of buffers are designed for specific setups. Assuming the 16" mid-length Noveske, what kind of buffer do I want / need?
Keep throwin' that knowledge my way - I'm feeling more powerful already... :p
jgalt,
I just got a LMT (upper and lower shipped in 2 boxes) about 2 months ago, shipped to my ffl for $1056. This a 16" M4 set up. It has been awsome so far. I've owned 6 Colts years back (all commerical grade, no 6920) about 15-16 different Bushmasters and have to say the LMT is by far my fav.
Grant,
I hear so many people rave about the mid length 16" barrels. I understand the reasoning. But if one sticks to a 16" barrel instead of going down to a 14.5" it seems and has been my personal exp. it should be just fine, afterall the 16" carbines have been around for what? 30-40 years now. BTW, I had a BM 14.5" that may have been showing signs of a short barrel/short gas system but again never with a 16". I know you have much more experience and I was curious about your opinion.
jgalt,
I don't mean to add any confusion. Listen to Grant, he is a great guy with truck loads of expereince. You'll never go wrong with his advice.
Mid-length options coming out shortly: ADS - Daniel Defense - BCM (late summer we hope)
Arrrrgh! Just when I thought I had it figured out and had decided on an ADS Alpha Basic. Oh well, I don't think I can wait until late summer anyway.
Deadcenter45
04-20-08, 03:14
*SNIP*
4. How can I go about finding the 'best' (i.e. cheapest) FFL dealer in my area?
-------------------------------------
For everyone else - don't let my apparent decision to go with the Noveske dissuade you from suggesting other high quality mid-length options. This won't be my last AR, so even if I don't take your suggestions for this one, you might help me find my next one... :p
This is a great source for finding FFL's in your area:
http://gunbroker.com/User/DealerNetwork.asp
YukonGlocker
04-20-08, 03:26
Sabre Defence manufactures a great 16" middy barrel also.
What is known about the BCM middies? I went LMT for my first 16inch AR, and am looking at Sabre middies for the next build. I'm wondering how the two will compare.
This is a great source for finding FFL's in your area:
http://gunbroker.com/User/DealerNetwork.asp
That's awesome! The shop closest to me actually isn't listed there, but they charge $100, which is why I was looking for other options. One guy there actually mentioned Weasel's, so its great to have both confirmation & the address. Thanks!
What is known about the BCM middies? I went LMT for my first 16inch AR, and am looking at Sabre middies for the next build. I'm wondering how the two will compare.
I personally consider BCM Middy's to get one of the VERY best on the market.
C4
That's awesome! The shop closest to me actually isn't listed there, but they charge $100, which is why I was looking for other options. One guy there actually mentioned Weasel's, so its great to have both confirmation & the address. Thanks!
$100 for a transfer???:eek: I thought I was high at $20.
C4
variablebinary
04-21-08, 02:23
$100 for a transfer???:eek: I thought I was high at $20.
C4
Local shops are getting really nasty with transfers. Highest I've heard is $60, up from $10 5 years ago.
Deadcenter45
04-21-08, 03:12
Local shops are getting really nasty with transfers. Highest I've heard is $60, up from $10 5 years ago.
Probably because they can't move the old surplus bolt guns for double what they are worth, or sell used OLYs for $1300 <-- in my local shop, I swears it
Local shops are getting really nasty with transfers. Highest I've heard is $60, up from $10 5 years ago.
$50 seems to be somewhat normal. It appears to me that because they cannot move guns in the store that they will make up the lost revenue thru transfers.
I believe that the reason why gun shops are not doing so well these days is directly related to all the firearms deals that can be found on the net. Most gun shops (with all their overhead) cannot offer consumers guns for 5-10% over their cost like the kitchen table FFL dealers can.
C4
I thought I was high
Somehow there's a great wisecrack to be made here. :p
i have never, and will never pay more than 20 for a transfer. i figure anyone charging more than that apparently has some sort of animosity towards doing them, and im not one to waste someones precious time and ink on simple paperwork.
there are plenty of folks that are more than happy to help you transfer, and only charge a nominal fee.
there are plenty of folks that are more than happy to help you transfer, and only charge a nominal fee.
Where you live, maybe. $20 is the lowest it gets in the Tampa area and it's out of a pawn shop. $25 to $45 are better estimates, and believe it or not there are two stores that charge $100 for transfers (needless to say, they'll never get my business). :mad:
-B
Where you live, maybe. $20 is the lowest it gets in the Tampa area and it's out of a pawn shop. $25 to $45 are better estimates, and believe it or not there are two stores that charge $100 for transfers (needless to say, they'll never get my business). :mad:
-B
You know, the two closest places to me both charge $25, which is pretty typical for this area, and they are both pawn shops. Is there any issue using a pawn shop as my FFL? Just curious...
Not particularly. The pawn shop near us just happens to staff some hardcore assholes who don't know a lot about the product. Given the list prices for the C&R weapons they've got on the shelf, I'm surprised theirs is the lowest transfer fee, actually.
-B
Not particularly. The pawn shop near us just happens to staff some hardcore assholes who don't know a lot about the product. Given the list prices for the C&R weapons they've got on the shelf, I'm surprised theirs is the lowest transfer fee, actually.
-B
All I intend to do is have them receive the parts I need shipped, pay them their transfer fee & be on my way. Do I need to care if they know jack about what I'm getting?
Where you live, maybe. $20 is the lowest it gets in the Tampa area and it's out of a pawn shop. $25 to $45 are better estimates, and believe it or not there are two stores that charge $100 for transfers (needless to say, they'll never get my business). :mad:
-B
A few years ago Loudoun County (VA) guns quoted me $100 for a transfer. I never went in that shop again. I wonder if they realize that quoting such a ridiculous price lost them at least one (and probably more) customer.
losbronces
04-22-08, 23:27
$100 for a transfer???:eek: I thought I was high at $20.
C4
$20 is dirt cheap now. The $50 to $100 range is pretty common.
YukonGlocker
04-23-08, 00:06
My dealer charges $10 for transfers.
My dealer charges $75 and I did pay for it once. I've done business with them so much that I trust them.
I figure I'll pay the extra 50 or so dollars more as insurance that they won't rip me off ... like take the Troy flip up sights off on a S&W M&P AR that was reported a couple months ago. :eek:
1. $135
2. Yes. We stock CMT and LMT LPK's.
3. Yes.
4. Call around and ask them what their transfer fee is.
5. About 1 week if the lowers remain in stock (selling fast).
Mid-length options coming out shortly:
ADS
Daniel Defense
BCM (late summer we hope)
C4
Wow, excellent price! How much for shipping?
In your honest opinion, which LPK would be best for the "ideal" SHTF scenario?
How much would it cost for you to assemble the lower before shipping? Free if you purchase both :D
Covered.
One week isn't bad at all!
Wow, excellent price! How much for shipping?
In your honest opinion, which LPK would be best for the "ideal" SHTF scenario?
How much would it cost for you to assemble the lower before shipping? Free if you purchase both :D
Covered.
One week isn't bad at all!
Please send me an e-mail with your questions so we do not tie up the tech forum with a build quote.
sales@grtactical.com
C4
in my mind, a dealer charging me more than 20 bucks for a transfer is attempting to "punish" me for not ordering from him.
in my mind, a dealer charging me more than 20 bucks for a transfer is attempting to "punish" me for not ordering from him.
Yes they are. My fellow FFL's have not quite realized that if you screw the customer, they are most likely NEVER going to step foot into your shop ever again.
C4
Nathan_Bell
04-23-08, 14:36
in my mind, a dealer charging me more than 20 bucks for a transfer is attempting to "punish" me for not ordering from him.
Local gunshop to me was trying to charge $50 or 10% of Dist. cost on items. I had to use small, loud words to explain the silliness of that.
Ive even heard of some places charging tax for transfers.
The gun shop down the street from me charges 150 for transfers, and sells basic BM's for 1300+ while swearing they are the best AR money can buy. I drive about 10 miles through downtown traffic to a pawnshop that charges 20. I have yet to step foot in a gun store that isn't also a manufacturer or custom shop that knows WTF they are talking about with anything related to firearms, or are just trying to push the crap they sell and will say any lie or myth or other BS to do it. You know when your sitting their filling out your transfer paperwork or looking around or whatever and you overhear one of the sales guys giving their BS speech to a some poor guy who wanted a Colt and convincing him that DPMS is the exact same thing and they actually make all the small parts for Colt. So the poor guy pays way too much for a POS because he lacked the proper information. To many people get dissuaded by the internet because of all the BS so they unknowingly go to their gun-store thinking if these guys sell guns they must know all about them and take their word for it. Then you hear "my DPMS is just as good if not better than your(insert a real gun here) and is cooler." Capitalism is one thing but most gun-stores I've been to fall into the dishonest business practices category, along with all the puppy stores and mechanics that do the same BS. Sorry for the rant just my opinion so take it as you will. Their should be a dedicated rant thread or something.:)
The FFL I used to go to had a flat $25 transfer fee when I first started using him. Now he wants $40 or 10% of the purchase price, whichever is greater, plus an 8% "use tax" that he says he is required to collect for the state. No one else charges this "use tax", so I find that suspicious. Needless to say, I don't go there anymore. Luckily I found a pawn shop that only charges $20 for transfers.
Misc Ex-Member
05-22-08, 18:54
My trusted FFL has raised his price for a transfer - why can't he understand that I'm less likely to do business with him now?
I'll keep using the good 'ol Scottsdale Gun Club, $15 for members.
There are numerous FFL's here in AZ that will do transfers for $15.;)
I'd NEVER pay more than $20, let alone $50-$150 as stated in previous posts...:mad:
decodeddiesel
05-29-08, 10:41
Probably because they can't move the old surplus bolt guns for double what they are worth, or sell used OLYs for $1300 <-- in my local shop, I swears it
Same story with the shop closest to me. Seriously pushing OLYs and DPMSs for $1100 - $1300 with big florescent orange and green signs on them saying "Buy before it's too late! Another ban is coming soon!" :rolleyes: Same shop wont sell Wolf by the case and wants to charge $8.99 a box :mad: Then again he doesn't stock P-mags because he didn't believe in a plastic magazine, and though the GI steel mags with black followers were the best you could get. Places like that really piss me off.
HAIL-CAESAR
10-24-08, 15:26
Mine charges you 10 dollars a transfer. Also if you buy a gun from him he will show you his price and shipping. He's very honest.
.357sigger
10-24-08, 18:26
I get mine for 10 as well...
$100 for a transfer???:eek: I thought I was high at $20.
C4
Yeah the best price I found out here in the inland empire is 75$ (DROS included)
other places 80-125 (dros included/sometimes)
so...as Dylan put it, "the times are a-changin"
RAM Engineer
02-06-11, 11:19
Dude, do you realize that you just replied to a 28 month old thread?
Ah, lighten up some. He just busted his cherry! :haha:
Wolf Spyder
02-06-11, 14:13
And...
He is from California...
Dude, do you realize that you just replied to a 28 month old thread?
lol now i do
doesn't really matter tho does it?
if the threads not closed then the threads not closed
And...
He is from California...
thanks for hatin!
now go do something productive
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