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CFII
08-31-13, 14:29
Buy a Glock 19 3rd Gen people say. Its probably the most reliable handgun ever, people say. :rolleyes: (note my opening line sarcasm).

Two massive malfunctions in 150 rounds of M882 ball. Pistol was unfired. Spent shellcasing in the box was dated 6-22-12.

Fail. This is my 10th glock give or take. I shoot every weekend, and have been doing this professionally for a long time. I am a huge dude, so I dont limp wrist anything.


Yes. I am ****ing angry. This is bullshit.

#2 extractor. 336 ejector.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v75/akscott60/image_zps8c8afb25.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/akscott60/media/image_zps8c8afb25.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v75/akscott60/image_zps51abcb0e.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/akscott60/media/image_zps51abcb0e.jpg.html)

krichbaum
08-31-13, 14:39
I know how you feel. I didn't do enough research and mistakenly thought buying a gen 3 would be safe. It had really erratic ejection, although no failures like yours. I put a 30274 ejector in and it helped a lot. Its not perfect, but big difference. I may end up getting the Apex FRE eventually. It sucks having to fix a new gun...seems everything on the market has its pros and cons.

CFII
08-31-13, 15:22
I am going to try a new Glock extractor. I refuse to spend my own money to fix a gun that should run.

polymorpheous
08-31-13, 15:31
This is a known issue that has been much discussed here.

Swap ejectors with the Gen4 .40S&W ejector.
That worked for my Gen3 G19.
You may have to install an older non dip ejector.

Steve S.
08-31-13, 15:37
The first line of the original post still rings true, I'm sure.

Even with the early Gen4 issues, the failure rate among Glocks in circulation compared to other pistols is probably the lowest.

Just be glad it's an easy, well identified fix. Then rock on, but keep in mind all mechanical things will fail.

CFII
08-31-13, 15:41
My friend and the local glock rep are going to work through this. It is more of a lesson in reputation erosion than anything else. I own a dozen other handguns I trust.

I hope Glock makes this right.

Hmac
08-31-13, 15:53
My friend and the local glock rep are going to work through this. It is more of a lesson in reputation erosion than anything else. I own a dozen other handguns I trust.

I hope Glock makes this right.

There are a lot of differing experiences reported working through Glock to get this problem fixed...everything from "sure, send it to us but no promises and you pay shipping" to "sorry about that, we can't fix the Gen 3's, we'll just send you a new Gen 4". IOW, dealing with Glock on this issue appears to be like box of chocolates.

Me, instead of screwing around with the shipping and the emailing and the waiting, I elected to just pop in a 30274 ejector and an Apex FRE. $70 later, I have a functional Glock 19. But by the time that happened, I'd already bought the Walther PPQ. The Glock now sits in the back of the safe. I'll never buy another one.

polymorpheous
08-31-13, 16:03
Read and heed.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=92133&highlight=glock+malfunction

MattHallman
08-31-13, 16:46
I replaced the ejector in my gen3 fde 19 with the 30274 from a gen4. I bought it from glockparts.com for $10. Thankfully it took care of the problem, just remember no two pistols are the same.
http://glockparts.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=123022&TERM=ejector

ST911
08-31-13, 17:06
OP- Sounds like you're getting things squared away. When your gun is updated by GI, please report back with your results.

The balance of information on extractor/ejector changes and these types of issues is adequately documented in several other threads. Let's keep this one about the OP's gun and experience specifically.

SPDGG
08-31-13, 19:06
Sorry to hear about your out of box Glock challenges. I would be pissed as well, but its a quick fix & pretty much proven at this point.

OP you posted the two items that have plagued the current 3rd Gen small frame Glocks, ejector & extractor. Seems you know what items to replace to fix these malfunctions, swap them out & all is good :)

fwiw: My 3rd 9mm Glocks all ran fine initially, but after some rounds down range, they all experienced erratic ejection patterns. Don't know if it was the extractor spring loosing tension, extractor loosing its edge/grip, or both. Never did they not eject, just poorly & in my face from time to time. . . . That got annoying during training & high round count drills.

I did what most had in the beginning before APEX FRE solution was available, the 4th Gen ejector, non-lci extractor, non-lci bearing, even tried the HRED. . . .Mixed this with that, Some parts worked, some made brass slung at face stronger . . .

. . . in the end, All my Glocks have 30274 Ejectors in place of the 336, Non-LCI Bearing, APEX FRE, APEX Extractor Spring. . . .All run like they should now, Thanks APEX Tactical.

My G26 with Apex FRE is the only one left to test & then they will all have pretty much the same mods.

* * * G19, when its running as it should, is a great handgun. Hate using marketing slogans, but its pretty much the perfect Do All sidearm. Hope you get those items replaced and get back to a properly running sidearm.

CFII
08-31-13, 19:45
Ha that is funny. I enjoy plastic fantasic, and own quite a few of them. I really enjoy when they work.....

Djstorm100
08-31-13, 19:58
So is this strictly a ejector problems s not a extractor? I've been eyeing a 17 and. 34 but read about issues and solutions but more curious as to exact what is causing the failure IE- extractor losing grip on the rim or ejector not position right/ something wrong with it.


Sent from from your Sister's bedroom.

ST911
08-31-13, 20:01
So is this strictly a ejector problems s not a extractor? I've been eyeing a 17 and. 34 but read about issues and solutions but more curious as to exact what is causing the failure IE- extractor losing grip on the rim or ejector not position right/ something wrong with it.

Hours of reading using "Glock extractor BTF ejector Apex LCI 6:00" as search terms. Apex has a thread with some theories, and there is another running thread ~100 pages long.

Djstorm100
08-31-13, 20:13
Hours of reading using "Glock extractor BTF ejector Apex LCI 6:00" as search terms. Apex has a thread with some theories, and there is another running thread ~100 pages long.

Thanks! I found the 100 page thread and read most and ask some questions that went unanswered.


Sent from from your Sister's bedroom.

aaron_c
08-31-13, 21:36
I made the same mistake - bought a Gen3 G19 thinking I'd avoid the issues. Turns out, after sending it in, the Gen4's were fixable and the Gen3's were not. Glock replaced my Gen3 with a Gen4 with all updated parts inside. It's run perfect ever since (and I got a Gen4 at Gen3 price lol).

xjustintimex
08-31-13, 21:44
Funny to see this thread

http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b431/davisjustin10/287AC282-A8D2-4C7B-A1DA-3A9BCE06CF7E-805-000000711289382B_zpsd39d2b5f.jpg

ericl
08-31-13, 22:14
I am currently overseas and have been for quite a while. I have two brand new Glocks my LGS (both 3rd gen, 19 & 35) waiting to be picked up when I decide to get there. I have owned Glocks in the past (both purchased in 2005/2006, 3rd Gen) which worked great. I see a ton of these issues popping up here. What the heck is happening to Glock? Who makes a decent pistol these days (other than my SA MC Operator.....great performer, but costly to keep running).
Glock = ejection/extraction issues (yeah, I know, easy fixes, but really? Should that be necessary? I get buying a new 1911 and sending it off for a reliability package, but a Glock or M&P?)
M&P = Accuracy is garbage. Spend 400-500 bucks for upgrades to make it decent....getting close to the price of another 1911.
PPQ= Yeah, great and all. But I do not see it taking hold of the duty market and having the logistic support or the previously mentioned pistols.
HK = Price? HK has always been quite proud of their products, just another example. Accurate, reliable. 4 magazines = the price of my first car. Still have to send it to Bowie to be ground upon.
FNH FNS = Not catching on at all. No aftermarket support. I always worry about CS from companies that are primarily military contract based.
Please don't mention the XD, I will vomit profusely.
I don't want to be "That 1911 guy", because heaven knows they have their issues too. But is anyone making a decent out-of-the box service pistol (like Glocks early on, ala 2nd gen, early 3rd Gen)?

T2C
08-31-13, 22:16
Two years ago I was running a group through a firearm qualification and saw this happen with a new Glock 17 shooting the same ammunition. About 100 rounds had been fired up to that point.

The brass was forced into the chamber backwards and I had to pound it out with a brass rod. I cleaned the pistol, paying particular attention to the chamber and extractor, then applied a generous amount of lubricant to the slide rail cuts and extractor. The Glock 17 ran for the rest of the day firing roughly 300 more rounds without issue.

I told the shooter to contact me if there were any more malfunctions of this type and I haven't heard from him since.

When I see a malfunction of this type with a 1911, I adjust the extractor tension.

Please let us know what you have to do to resolve the issue.

xjustintimex
08-31-13, 22:43
Are you adding more tension on the 1911?

T2C
08-31-13, 22:58
Are you adding more tension on the 1911?

Yes sir. If the tension is too light, the extractor will not hold onto the case rim hard enough to get positive ejection. Be careful though, because too much tension on a 1911 extractor will cause problems as well.

On another occasion, I saw the type of malfunction the OP had with a well worn Glock 22. When we troubleshot the problem, it turned out that it only happened with one magazine. There was just enough wear on the one magazine that it did not ride as high as the other ones the shooter was using and he had an occasional malfunction with it. The pistol acted as if he did not have the magazine seated, which was due to wear. I tossed the magazine in the trash, issued him a new one and that took care of the problem.

I didn't bring up the Glock 22 problem, because the OP has a new pistol.

CFII
09-01-13, 18:32
I was put into contact with a regional armorer. He is sending me a bag of replacement parts.

Good customer service so far.

morbidbattlecry
09-01-13, 21:13
Do yourself a favor op and just get a Gen4 ejector and Apex Extractor. The extractor from apex may need to be tuned(shoot it first just dropping it in may fix the issue).But this is very easily done. I wish i would done this instead of fighting with glock , trying old style extractors, so on so forth.

CFII
09-13-13, 18:49
Update:

A local Glock LE rep had the factory overnight me a new trigger housing/ejector (2 marked with 336 ejector), a new extractor (non dipped LCI), and extractor depressor plunger assembly.

I threw them in the pistol and will shoot her tmw.

Tzook
09-13-13, 19:03
I would call Glock, and say **** you give me a gun that works. No reason you should have to spend your money to make it run

Gutshot John
09-13-13, 20:30
From where does this expectation come that a Glock, or any other gun, is going to function 100% out of the box?

Ahhhh the interwebz...never mind.

Yet another example of how the internet has ruined the firearms industry.

thopkins22
09-13-13, 21:26
From where does this expectation come that a Glock, or any other gun, is going to function 100% out of the box?

Ahhhh the interwebz...never mind.

Yet another example of how the internet has ruined the firearms industry.

Why might someone expect a product advertised as "Perfection" to perform perfectly? Totally f-ing crazy, I know. These aren't built for backyard plinking. They're built for duty and for defense...situations that can end in death if the product doesn't work. The occasional lemon isn't the issue.

Before forums and the internet, there wasn't knowledge being shared that company X produces quality goods. Before the internet high volume shooters weren't actually high volume shooters with few exceptions. Before the internet someone might buy product A, find it didn't work and maybe give the company a chance to fix it. If the company didn't, that person would chalk it up to a mistake and never buy another one.

If anything, the internet has been the single greatest aspect of increasing quality and quality control of anything to ever happen to the firearm industry. Things have improved dramatically with the internet...including the value of customer service.

If I have a problem with a product from Surefire, BCM, Magpul, Gear Sector, Noveske, or a few other top notch companies...the customer service provided is superior and that knowledge spreads around the internet like wildfire. If Glock starts putting out pistols with problems, refuses to admit to it, can't figure it out due to either a lack of quality engineers or because they simply don't care, that knowledge also spreads like wildfire...as it should.

Look, I'm a Glock guy. Every single semiautomatic full size or compact pistol I own is a Glock. It hasn't been the occasional lemon. It has been a very real problem with nothing of note happening at GI to address it. And long after this started happening, when you'd think that even the most incompetent company could have figured it out...guns are apparently still leaving with the same symptoms. Unacceptable.

Gutshot John
09-13-13, 21:59
Perfection is marketing. If it was "perfect" there wouldn't be a gen2 let alone 3 and 4. So Im not sure I buy into that argument unless you're saying there is one perfect handgun for everyone.

He's put 150 rounds through the gun with 2 malfs? Would I carry the gun yet? No, but until you can quantify what the problem is, it's a big so the hell what?

I've never owned a gun that didn't have 1-2 malfs in the first 500 rounds or so. If its still a problem at that point Im sure Glock will take care of you.

Other than that, I totally disagree with everything said about the Internet. Since I've been coming to Internet forums all manner of people have been parroting what they read on the Internet without any capability to think critically about what they're saying. I've never owned an unreliable Glock though I've sold a few as its not my favorite gun. I've never had an inaccurate M&P though I've owned more than half a dozen. Somehow I manage to shoot a 4 moa dot without problems and my 1187s run fine. I could go on. News flash there is no perfect pistol.

The Internet has become a giant echo chamber of people with unrealistic expectations given the numbers of firearms produced and exceedingly high demand they are trying to meet.

Are there problems with some Glocks? Sure it happens.

Redhat
09-13-13, 22:00
From where does this expectation come that a Glock, or any other gun, is going to function 100% out of the box?

Ahhhh the interwebz...never mind.

Yet another example of how the internet has ruined the firearms industry.

Glock doesn't seem to discourage this assumption either.

Gutshot John
09-13-13, 22:02
Glock doesn't seem to discourage this assumption either.

You have a brain, Im sure you are quite capable of skepticism.

ST911
09-13-13, 22:07
This is a great point to return the thread's focus to the gun in question. :D

Redhat
09-13-13, 22:07
You have a brain, Im sure you are quite capable of skepticism.

Sometimes...I bought my one and only, a G19, used a few years back with the idea to see what all the talk was about. I'm not a high volume shooter but through a couple thousand rounds it hasn't had any stoppages or malfunctions. I personally don't run around banging the drum for Glock but my sample of one seems to work without much fuss.

thopkins22
09-13-13, 22:11
Never mind folks...was starting to drift.

Slater
09-13-13, 22:12
Is it reasonable to say that a majority of new pistols will run reliably throughout their service lives?

thopkins22
09-13-13, 22:13
Is it reasonable to say that a majority of new pistols will run reliably throughout their service lives?

Without hesitation, provided proper service intervals and PM.

Hmac
09-13-13, 22:29
From where does this expectation come that a Glock, or any other gun, is going to function 100% out of the box?

Ahhhh the interwebz...never mind.

Yet another example of how the internet has ruined the firearms industry.

----------------

Never mind. :rolleyes:

Gutshot John
09-14-13, 07:54
----------------

Never mind. :rolleyes:

That explains a lot.

If your Glock is having problems, send it back and get it fixed.

I'm not sure what the point was until you've ruled out an ammo issue (unlikely given 150 rounds) and given them a chance to identify the problem and fix it.

I'm not beating the Glock drum, I'm an M&P guy, but given the sheer demand in the current firearms industry, the volume they have to produce, and that most shooters have no clue on how to identify the issue.

I was also under the impression that forum rules stated that you have to give the vendor a chance to reply.

Sure there are some guns that will be lemons, but statistically, given the numbers, it's a rare event.

C4IGrant
09-14-13, 08:19
At the last Hackathorn pistol class, half the class had Glock's and the other half had M&P's. The Glock's were the guns that had all the malfunctions (less the guy with the Kimber :rolleyes:).

Talking with Mr. Hackathorn, this is now the NORM.

This doesn't mean you can't get a good one, but the days of the Glock being the most reliable polymer pistol are over IMHO.



C4

Gutshot John
09-14-13, 08:33
What is the "norm"? Statistically that word means that more Glocks have problems than don't have problems. Is that what's being claimed? Because if so that needs to be quantified more than by anecdotal stories on the internet or even within a shooting class. I can see how it might be a "norm" that at least one Glock will have a problem at some point during a class, but extrapolating that to most Glocks requires a higher standard of proof.

All people hear is about the bad incidents online and so it becomes expected, and then it becomes a confirmation bias.

If everything goes right, no one says boo. If all you hear is the bad, than that's what you expect. For every Glock that may have problems there are at least 10 that don't.

Likewise there were always Glocks that had problems, the internet just amplified the noise. I've owned Glocks since the early 90s, they've all experienced malfunctions, especially within the first 500 rounds.

I certainly agree that Glock problems are increasing as bean counters get involved, but the notion that more Glocks have problems than don't is a overbaked.

Slater
09-14-13, 08:33
That's unfortunate. I remember when the G-17 Gen 3 used to be the poster child for out-of-the-box reliability, and a lot of people thought that the Gen 4 would continue that tradition.

C4IGrant
09-14-13, 09:11
What is the "norm"? Statistically that word means that more Glocks have problems than don't have problems. Is that what's being claimed? Because if so that needs to be quantified more than by anecdotal stories on the internet or even within a shooting class. I can see how it might be a "norm" that at least one Glock will have a problem at some point during a class, but extrapolating that to most Glocks requires a higher standard of proof.

All people hear is about the bad incidents online and so it becomes expected, and then it becomes a confirmation bias.

If everything goes right, no one says boo. If all you hear is the bad, than that's what you expect. For every Glock that may have problems there are at least 10 that don't.

Likewise there were always Glocks that had problems, the internet just amplified the noise. I've owned Glocks since the early 90s, they've all experienced malfunctions, especially within the first 500 rounds.

I certainly agree that Glock problems are increasing as bean counters get involved, but the notion that more Glocks have problems than don't is a overbaked.

I don't do "stories on the errornet" unless it is from someone I know well and trust what they are saying.

I frequently talk to several of the best firearms instructors in the world and frequently ask which guns are they seeing the MOST malfunctions from in classes. The new "norm" is to see Glock's having the most issues. This is first person knowledge being shared with me.

It should also be noted that 1911's aren't found all that often any more in your higher end classes. If they were, it would probably be a tie for first place in the malfunction category. ;)

As many know, I am a big time S&W dealer and a fan of the M&P. That means that a lot of the local shooters are also running this gun because they can get guns, mags and armorer work for lower than normal costs. Because of this, the number one gun I see in my VSM classes are M&P's. Typically, if there are 15 students in a class, 12 of them are running M&P's. Malfunctions are not common during classes.

It should also be noted that my main training gun is an M&P. Never had a reliability problem with the gun.



C4

C4IGrant
09-14-13, 09:20
One other thought. Most people do not shoot their guns. At this same Hackathorn class (which was full of people into training and shooting and regularly attend high end classes), the average round count they shoot is between 100-200 rounds a MONTH. That is only a case or two of ammo a year! That ain't a lot, but is far more the average Glock owner who might shoot 100-200rds a YEAR.

Before I became a gun store owner, I would have never believed the above. It is common for people to come into our store and buy 100rds to last them a year.


Point to all this is that most people will jump on the net in these types of threads and tell everyone that their Glock runs "flawless." The guys that go to training, shoot a lot will commonly paint a different picture.

Who is right? Don't know, but what I do know is that all firearms work well sitting on your hip or in the safe. ;)



C4

Slater
09-14-13, 09:25
How long do you think before Glock gets a handle on their issues?

SPQR476
09-14-13, 09:33
How long do you think before Glock gets a handle on their issues?

Probably not until people stop buying everything they can pump out, issues or not. I'm deeply invested in the Glock platform, but I haven't bought any lately. The last Gen 3 G17 I bought is the only Glock I own that baubles. It inline stove pipes about once every 200-500 rounds, so it's a teaching gun that I don't carry. Bought it right when Gen 4s were becoming available.

Gutshot John
09-14-13, 09:45
Grant, So you're saying that those who shoot their guns regularly are the ones experiencing the malfunctions? And anyone who says otherwise doesn't shoot them enough?

Not buying it.

The OP said "out of the box" and "150 rounds", surely if that's all the round count you need to experience a malfunction, than those who shoot 200-1000 rounds in a year would certainly shoot enough to qualify.

I can agree that most of the malfunctions being seen by Hackathorn and others are Glocks more than other guns (without quantifying what those malfunctions were, how persistent they were, if they added a bit of lube and rocked on, if it was an ammo issue etc.) but there is no attempt to troubleshoot the issue beyond that.

I'm an M&P guy, and there are legitimate gripes about both guns, but people read on the internet "most of the malfunctions we saw were Glocks" and they hear "most Glocks malfunction."

Just like they read "certain M&Ps have accuracy issues", and extrapolate it to "the M&P is inaccurate."

Slater
09-14-13, 09:54
Not to diverge too far, but I wonder about large contracts such as the one below. Have Glock's publicized issues affected these guns at all?:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-11/u-k-army-get-nypd-pistol-as-glock-bests-browning-after-46-years.html

Averageman
09-14-13, 10:17
Is this what is to be expected when we have the masses of the non shooting public suddenly panic purchase firearms?
When production demands skyrocket over night due to the political instability of our second amendment rights, is it not logical to expect more lemons of all guns to hit the market?
I have seen demand overwhelm production on assembly lines of other products. The FIRST thing to fail is quality control, then customer service, production, no matter how bad the end product may be, however will peak.
At this point it should be up to Glock to make it right.
I would think as the tempo of these incidents increases we will see more and more of this happen.

Gutshot John
09-14-13, 10:21
Is this what is to be expected when we have the masses of the non shooting public suddenly panic purchase firearms?
When production demands skyrocket over night due to the political instability of our second amendment rights, is it not logical to expect more lemons of all guns to hit the market?
I have seen demand overwhelm production on assembly lines of other products. The FIRST thing to fail is quality control, then customer service, production, no matter how bad the end product may be, however will peak.
At this point it should be up to Glock to make it right.
I would think as the tempo of these incidents increases we will see more and more of this happen.

100% agree, it's a matter of cost and risk management. It's cheaper to sell more and then fix/replace the few that break, than it is to limit production/sales and maintain 100% reliability.

If most Glocks were unreliable, they'd be fixing it. My sense though is that with increased production, you have fewer available parts, and have to make due with what you do have, and then you have tolerance stacking issues as they mix/match parts, and decreased ability to properly test the guns that come out.

Same reason software manufacturers don't issue a patch as soon as a new flaw is discovered.

TurretGunner
09-14-13, 10:54
I would call Glock, and say **** you give me a gun that works. No reason you should have to spend your money to make it run

Have you even read the thread or you just here to stir shit?
OP said they are making it right.

ptmccain
09-14-13, 11:05
Always a bummer to hear about people having problems with their Glocks.

Also always a bummer to read way over the top generalizations based on zero factual statistical studies but more anecdotal.

In the classes I've been in the NUMBER ONE reason anyone's pistol goes down, and have yet to see a Glock have problems, is because the shooter is a novice and has either not lubricated the weapon at all, or only minimally.

Strip the firearm down, brush it off a bit, LUBE it and ... runs fine the rest of the day.

I've seen this happen to Taurus, Beretta, M&Ps, and 1911s. Have not seen it yet with Glocks.

So, with all due respect to Grant when he says things like, "more the average Glock owner who might shoot 100-200rds a YEAR."

I'm raising the BS flag very high on this one.

TurretGunner
09-14-13, 11:09
100% agree, it's a matter of cost and risk management. It's cheaper to sell more and then fix/replace the few that break, than it is to limit production/sales and maintain 100% reliability.

If most Glocks were unreliable, they'd be fixing it. My sense though is that with increased production, you have fewer available parts, and have to make due with what you do have, and then you have tolerance stacking issues as they mix/match parts, and decreased ability to properly test the guns that come out.

Same reason software manufacturers don't issue a patch as soon as a new flaw is discovered.

There is a real issue with the latest glocks.

With that being said, for the last 30 years, there have not been. You could read the gun forums and there would be posts about this or that malfunctioning or not working. What guns run with what types of ammo,ect. For the most parts, glock issues (outside of the occational kaboom) were so miniscule compared to how many are out there compared to other brands.

I have over 20K rounds through my glocks. MY g19 has around 12K through it. Outside of normal PM, I have not had 1 malfunction... Nothing, nada not 1.........And that is shooting a good amount of steel case and cheap shit. I can count on one hand the amount of times ive seen a glock choke, that wasn't due to someone doing something retarded, and I worked at a gun range for over 4 years.

I would venture to guess there are magnitudes of glocks out there compared to other brands. I also believe that based on glocks stellar reputation throughout those decades, when one is malfunctioning, a bigger deal gets made, because it is (or was) very uncommon.

The boards are littered with people bitching about xxx brand, and sheeeeeet.. S&W has a pistol in the M&P that comes defective from the god damn factory for christ sakes. Between the rusting on ealier models, barrel lockup issues, horrible accuracy and a trigger that is so pathetic that people have to spend over $100 just to make it usable. Then the fact that mags are not only expensive , but damn near impossible to find. Don't get me wrong, Ide love to have skimmer triggers in all my glocks, but they are perfectly usable with the stock triggers

My last two glocks are less than two years old. No problems whatsoever, maybe I'm lucky.

Just bought a brand new G29SF so well see if it has the problems you guys claim.

Anyone who owns a couple of glocks and actually shoots them, should have their own parts kits. Parts are cheap and easy to find, so make yourself one so if you do have these kinds of issues, they can be replaced with known working parts.

ptmccain
09-14-13, 11:27
These threads always strike me as somewhat useless.

There are a bazillion Glocks out there, statistically there will be "more problems"

End of story.

Oh, well.

Hmac
09-14-13, 11:58
These threads always strike me as somewhat useless.


Exactly. And their populated by all the same folks...those that have had problems and the Glock apologists. Glock obviously has a problem, but everything that can be said about it has already been said here.

SPQR476
09-14-13, 12:44
The reason these threads aren't useless is that it's an enigmatic problem. Some guns have it, some guns don't. Got it, that's normal with anything mass produced...100% perfection is impossible, marketing slogans aside. That it shows up 800-1000rounds into service life in some guns, and is present from the start in others doesn't help, though.

The main issue is that when the problem, a common-themed problem, at that, occurs...there isn't a consistent fix. Swapping ejectors works for some, polishing extractors or swapping extractors to aftermarket, non-dipped, non-LCI, etc., different EDPs, and so on works for others, and for some nothing works, so threads like this or the other monster, provide a resource for what works, what doesn't, and if factory CS is fixing the issue, or if other avenues are working better.

I think all Grant was trying to say is that since the problem does sometimes manifest itself after a significant round count, there may be plenty of folks who might discover this issue later in service life. Or not. I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth.

I still carry Glocks every day, and of the 3 Gen 3's I've purchased since the Gen 4 release, only one has any issues, and it's super infrequent, but enough for me to not trust it like the others. I know, or know of, a solid handful of folks who have also experienced the ejection issues, so it's not me whining about my sample size of one.

I wouldn't even care as much if they all came from the factory with the problem, but there was a 100% fix. It's just frustrating that its such an unknown, since I love the platform in general.

ptmccain
09-14-13, 12:47
I'm challenging the assertion made by Grant that the average Glock user only shoots 100-200 rounds a year.

That kind of unsubstantiated, undocumented assertion in this kind of conversation is precisely why, ultimately, these conversations go nowhere in a hurry.

murphman
09-14-13, 13:20
[QUOTE=ptmccain;1746936]I'm challenging the assertion made by Grant that the average Glock user only shoots 100-200 rounds a year.

I cannot say Grant's comment is a correct assessment but from only my personal experiences i would lean towards agreeing with it. Not all of my friends own firearms but all of them that do rarely shoot. A couple have not fired their pistols in over two years. A couple others might put 120 rounds through theirs over a year, they mainly put a couple mags or a box of 50 through their pistol when they do shoot before calling it good, which is maybe once a quarter at best.

YVK
09-14-13, 13:26
I'm challenging the assertion made by Grant that the average Glock user only shoots 100-200 rounds a year.

That kind of unsubstantiated, undocumented assertion in this kind of conversation is precisely why, ultimately, these conversations go nowhere in a hurry.

He may be not far off. You're right, there is no hard data, but there are observations. I know people who bought Glocks during panic runs, and barely or even never shot them. Just to show the level of expertise, one dude bought 17C... I know people who own them but carry and shoot something else. I know people who use them to teach entry level classes, but do nothing else. Etc.

And, just to stir the pot, my 2011 Gen4 17 is easily carry-ready, while my 2011 M&P is solidly competing for a title of the worst out of box gun I ever had. Then again, I am anonymous internet poster with unknown skill level, so take it for what it is worth.

ptmccain
09-14-13, 13:55
You could just as easily say "most every average gun owner only shoots 100-300 rounds" a year.

Here is how these threads always go:

I got a Glock and it DOES NOT WORK!!!
ARGHHHHHH

GLOCKS SUCK!!!! I HATE GLOCK NOW!!!!


No, no, Glocks are PERFECT!!!! Perfect!!!!!


Snooze.

:lazy2:

CFII
09-14-13, 14:56
Update:
It worked. I ran the same NATO ball through it as well as some Federal 100rd pack from Wallly World. Ejection pattern was erratic, but it worked with all rounds. Weak hand and strong hand. I am happy now. I will keep my eye on it for a while more before I really trust it.


As for details on me: I shoot 800-1200 rounds a month, know how to lube a firearm (FireClean), have attended a dozen classes or so, worked in the industry for quite a while, and I am an Army pilot.

So yea, not a n00b or something.

SPQR476
09-14-13, 17:16
Well, that's something, and speaks to the value of a thread like this. Please keep updating if there is a change in the status or operation. It's encouraging that at least the first 100 rounds have been trouble free, but frustrating that the ejection is still erratic.


It appears the only posts that don't add value are the ones complaining about how threads like this don't HAVE value.


Update:
It worked. I ran the same NATO ball through it as well as some Federal 100rd pack from Wallly World. Ejection pattern was erratic, but it worked with all rounds. Weak hand and strong hand. I am happy now. I will keep my eye on it for a while more before I really trust it.


As for details on me: I shoot 800-1200 rounds a month, know how to lube a firearm (FireClean), have attended a dozen classes or so, worked in the industry for quite a while, and I am an Army pilot.

So yea, not a n00b or something.

sierra 223
09-14-13, 17:33
I have a 19 and 17 both Gen 3s that I trust as much as you can trust anything mechanical.

They both have several thousands of rounds through them with zero problems. Just changed the recoil guide /spring on both.

I also keep them clean and well lubed.

Several guys I know have recently switched to Gen 4s and have not had any malfunctions but several have had the erratic ejections issues.

At this point I would not trade my well used and reliable Gen 3s for Gen 4s.

I think Glock will get it worked out but they have hurt their reputation.

C4IGrant
09-15-13, 08:47
Grant, So you're saying that those who shoot their guns regularly are the ones experiencing the malfunctions? And anyone who says otherwise doesn't shoot them enough?

Not buying it.

The OP said "out of the box" and "150 rounds", surely if that's all the round count you need to experience a malfunction, than those who shoot 200-1000 rounds in a year would certainly shoot enough to qualify.


No, not in the least, but from our experience as someone that sees more Glocks (in person) than a lot of people (certified armorer, custom work, fix problem guns that Glock can't, etc). What we are saying is that Glock's seem to exhibit issues either very early on OR between 3-5K. For MANY people, that is a HUGE round count that they will not see for many years.

IMHO, in the next 3-5yrs, we are going to see a lot more threads from people that bought guns in the last 2-3 years posting that their Glock's are malfunctioning.


I can agree that most of the malfunctions being seen by Hackathorn and others are Glocks more than other guns (without quantifying what those malfunctions were, how persistent they were, if they added a bit of lube and rocked on, if it was an ammo issue etc.) but there is no attempt to troubleshoot the issue beyond that.

I'm an M&P guy, and there are legitimate gripes about both guns, but people read on the internet "most of the malfunctions we saw were Glocks" and they hear "most Glocks malfunction."

Just like they read "certain M&Ps have accuracy issues", and extrapolate it to "the M&P is inaccurate."

Oh, there are always stupid user tricks. The key is to look at the students guns right after the malfunction. Was it properly lubed? Yes, then we have to consider that there is more going on here.

The M&P are NOW getting better in the accuracy department, but older guns were simply horrible and the complaints are NOT exaggerated.


C4

Crow Hunter
09-15-13, 09:14
Update:
It worked. I ran the same NATO ball through it as well as some Federal 100rd pack from Wallly World. Ejection pattern was erratic, but it worked with all rounds. Weak hand and strong hand. I am happy now. I will keep my eye on it for a while more before I really trust it.


As for details on me: I shoot 800-1200 rounds a month, know how to lube a firearm (FireClean), have attended a dozen classes or so, worked in the industry for quite a while, and I am an Army pilot.

So yea, not a n00b or something.

Another "trick" you can try. Is try some older Glock 19 mags, if you have some, that have been "worn in" some. If you don't have any, load yours with a full 15 rounds until they "take a set" to the point that it becomes relatively easy to load that last round. If you still have a problem at that time, you should see Glocks help.

The magazines have a significant influence on how the guns eject. There is the possibility depending on the slide speed, rim size, and magazine strength combination that the case is forced out of the extractors grip before it actually hit the ejector. (This doesn't even count the tolerance variation on ejector position and extractor geometry)

Glock, for whatever reason, designed their weapons such that there is around an 1/8th inch jump between where the case is extracted from the chamber and where it hits the ejector. This means that right after the case mouth moves past the chamber walls it is being acted upon by the cartridge stack under it pushing it up and twisting it in the extractors grip. That means it will hit the ejector at varying angles during the extraction phase. This can and will change the case trajectory. Reducing the upward force from the cartridge stack, the speed of extraction and changing the brass can help. As can changing the extractor/ejector geometry.

Take some dummy rounds and slowly cycle the gun and you will see what I mean.

In the M&P and Sig P226, the empty case hits the ejector pretty much the same time the case mouth clears the chamber walls.

I have never looked at any other designs that closely.

Devildawg2531
09-15-13, 09:16
As many know, I am a big time S&W dealer and a fan of the M&P. That means that a lot of the local shooters are also running this gun because they can get guns, mags and armorer work for lower than normal costs. Because of this, the number one gun I see in my VSM classes are M&P's. Typically, if there are 15 students in a class, 12 of them are running M&P's. Malfunctions are not common during classes.

It should also be noted that my main training gun is an M&P. Never had a reliability problem with the gun.


C4

Listening to someone assess Glock quality who admits to being a big time S&W dealer and having a vested $ business interest doesn't hold much water. Attributing QC problems to the market share leader (Glock) who also holds the majority of LE contracts (Glock) when my business is vested in M&P makes good business sense but is far from an unbiased assessment... but there will be sheeple trading in their Glock's for M&P's because Grant said so.

C4IGrant
09-15-13, 13:16
Is this what is to be expected when we have the masses of the non shooting public suddenly panic purchase firearms?
When production demands skyrocket over night due to the political instability of our second amendment rights, is it not logical to expect more lemons of all guns to hit the market?
I have seen demand overwhelm production on assembly lines of other products. The FIRST thing to fail is quality control, then customer service, production, no matter how bad the end product may be, however will peak.
At this point it should be up to Glock to make it right.
I would think as the tempo of these incidents increases we will see more and more of this happen.


This could be true, but people that know the history of Glock would probably argue differently.

The Glock pistol came together by a group of people that really didn't know much about engineering pistols. They had a working model very quickly (dumb luck if you will). The reason we bring this up is because Glock really does not have the engineering knowledge like other pistol manufacturers do. More on this later.

The Glock fails most all of the tests that we use to determine if a 1911 is built properly. I know people will argue that these function tests don't apply, but when you start seeing Glock's fail the way they do, the pieces start to fall together.

The Glock has always had an erratic ejection pattern. The main cause of this is because the magazine follower or round below the one being fired help to push out the spent case. The extractor is angled so that the case can move up and down in the breech face (where other guns grab the case straight on and use a pocket milled into the breech face to hold it in the same spot every time). The mag spring tension varies greatly between the first 5rds and the last 5. This is why the ejection pattern changes considerably (and why mag spring PM's are so important to the reliability of this weapon).

For a long, long time, these weaknesses never really came to a head (until the GEN 4). Glock introduced the dual spring system and changed how they made their extractors. They then put this new extractor into their GEN 3 guns (thusly affecting it as well). This put a spot light on the some of the design flaws of the gun (that Glock had gotten away with IMHO).

Apex Tactical did a lot of engineering research on the Glock problem and pretty much came to the conclusion that the Glock problem is a multifaceted one. To TRULY make a Glock reliable (over thousands of rounds), you must change the extractor grab angle (which they did) AND lower the ejection port window.

For the record, I know that some Glock's will work right out of the box (with no mods done to it). I am almost of the opinion that this is more of an anomaly than a standard. YMMV.

Interesting side note, Mr. Glock took his design to HK and they passed on it. Not sure why, but they did. Clue? Not sure.
IMHO, Glock would be WISE to hire some HK engineers to work on their problems (as I don't believe they have the knowledge base to do it).

All of this is my opinion based on being a certified armorer, fixing problem Glock's, talking to engineers and firearms instructors and my seven personally owned Glock's. YMMV.




C4

C4IGrant
09-15-13, 13:23
These threads always strike me as somewhat useless.

There are a bazillion Glocks out there, statistically there will be "more problems"

End of story.

Oh, well.

Honestly speaking if we had a class with 100 students, round count of 5,000 per student and were divided into these groups:

HK P30/USP/HK45 X 25
S&W M&P X 25
Glock GEN 4 X 25
SIG 226 X 25

My money on the gun with the most malfunctions would be the Gen 4 Glock.


C4

C4IGrant
09-15-13, 13:26
The reason these threads aren't useless is that it's an enigmatic problem. Some guns have it, some guns don't. Got it, that's normal with anything mass produced...100% perfection is impossible, marketing slogans aside. That it shows up 800-1000rounds into service life in some guns, and is present from the start in others doesn't help, though.

The main issue is that when the problem, a common-themed problem, at that, occurs...there isn't a consistent fix. Swapping ejectors works for some, polishing extractors or swapping extractors to aftermarket, non-dipped, non-LCI, etc., different EDPs, and so on works for others, and for some nothing works, so threads like this or the other monster, provide a resource for what works, what doesn't, and if factory CS is fixing the issue, or if other avenues are working better.

I think all Grant was trying to say is that since the problem does sometimes manifest itself after a significant round count, there may be plenty of folks who might discover this issue later in service life. Or not. I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth.

I still carry Glocks every day, and of the 3 Gen 3's I've purchased since the Gen 4 release, only one has any issues, and it's super infrequent, but enough for me to not trust it like the others. I know, or know of, a solid handful of folks who have also experienced the ejection issues, so it's not me whining about my sample size of one.

I wouldn't even care as much if they all came from the factory with the problem, but there was a 100% fix. It's just frustrating that its such an unknown, since I love the platform in general.


Correct Sir. My MAIN (meaning most carried weapon) is a GEN 2 G19 with a steel guide rod assembly and a tuned Apex Extractor.

No Glock "hate" here.



C4

C4IGrant
09-15-13, 13:27
I'm challenging the assertion made by Grant that the average Glock user only shoots 100-200 rounds a year.

That kind of unsubstantiated, undocumented assertion in this kind of conversation is precisely why, ultimately, these conversations go nowhere in a hurry.

LOL. Go to a CCW class. Take a pole.


C4

C4IGrant
09-15-13, 13:33
Listening to someone assess Glock quality who admits to being a big time S&W dealer and having a vested $ business interest doesn't hold much water. Attributing QC problems to the market share leader (Glock) who also holds the majority of LE contracts (Glock) when my business is vested in M&P makes good business sense but is far from an unbiased assessment... but there will be sheeple trading in their Glock's for M&P's because Grant said so.

I was wondering how long before I got this line. Here are the facts:

1. G&R Tactical is a premier Glock dealer and will soon be getting into the LE side.
2. My personal favorite CCW setup is a GEN 2 G19. I believe that the G19 is the best CCW gun ever made.
3. I personally own 7 Glock's. I only won TWO M&P's!
4. We are a certified Glock armorer and offer barrel fitting and trigger work on Glock's. We also work hard to help owners with problem Glock's so that they are reliable (often times for free).



C4

C4IGrant
09-15-13, 13:46
Speaking of LOW round counts and people not believing me, anyone ever talk to LE? Most police shoot between 40 and 200rds a year TOTAL!

Read this thread. Note the comments about giving a deputy ONE BOX of ammo for training a quarter (which would be a lot of ammo for LE where I live as they get ZERO ammo for practice or training): https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1747704&posted=1#post1747704



C4

Gutshot John
09-15-13, 14:00
Ok so now we've gone from modern Glocks have problems, to Glock has always had problems but has gotten away with it because of dumb luck over millions of samples, over two decades of time?

Huh?

ptmccain
09-15-13, 14:09
Yup, Grant just jumped the shark.

;)

And since we are now swapping stories, a few weeks ago I met a former Navy Seal (Vietnam era) and retired LEO (SWAT) who has a running bet with a buddy of his. This guy teaches handgun classes literally around the world.

They each have a Glock Gen 2 G17 and are waiting to see which one of them has to clean it first.

He has put 40,000 rounds through his Glock and has never cleaned it, just light lube. He has replaced the recoil spring. That's it.

His buddy has around 30K through his.

So far neither of them has lost a bet.

YMMV.

C4IGrant
09-15-13, 14:17
Ok so now we've gone from modern Glocks have problems, to Glock has always had problems but has gotten away with it because of dumb luck over millions of samples, over two decades of time?

Huh?

Yes. If you think about it, why would you have GEN 1, 2, 3, 4, etc of a gun if it weren't to fix a problem? In some instances you could say that the manufacturer modernized the gun (like when they added the rail for lights), but generally it is too FIX a problem(s).

Ever go to the Glock armorer school and see the listing of all the parts that have been changed between generations?? IMHO, Glock should be at say Generation 10 by now, but rolled many changes into each generation.

BTW, all manufacturers do this. Sometimes they do a safety recall instead of a new version OR just do the update and don't tell anyone.

The main reason why Glock came out with the GEN 4 WAS TO FIX issues with the G22 not working with weapon mounted lights AND to offer an adjustable grip (as they were losing to S&W M&P in this area).

Before gun forums really took hold (late 90's), there was VERY little knowledge sharing about problems (unlike we have today). People are also shooting WAAAAY more than ever before. Thusly finding more problems.

I would make the argument that problems were there in the GEN 1's and GEN 2's. Case in point: http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/phase3.html

The above is why the GEN 3 came about (along with the rail).



C4

C4IGrant
09-15-13, 14:23
Yup, Grant just jumped the shark.

;)

And since we are now swapping stories, a few weeks ago I met a former Navy Seal (Vietnam era) and retired LEO (SWAT) who has a running bet with a buddy of his. This guy teaches handgun classes literally around the world.

They each have a Glock Gen 2 G17 and are waiting to see which one of them has to clean it first.

He has put 40,000 rounds through his Glock and has never cleaned it, just light lube. He has replaced the recoil spring. That's it.

His buddy has around 30K through his.

So far neither of them has lost a bet.

YMMV.

Let me guess, they also never did any PM's to the gun either (like changing out the guide rod assembly). Sorry, that is a pure BS.

I would suggest you stay in your lane when talking about guns. Exhibit A: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=137642



C4

Devildawg2531
09-15-13, 14:26
Today I just finished firing about 400 rounds in my new G26 gen4, G34 gen 4 and G24 gen3 and ZERO issues! The Power Ball is over $300M so I may pick up a ticket. Between my 7 Glocks owned starting in early 90's and continuing with 2 new gen 4's this year I've never had a bad one. Somewhere north of 15k rounds fired and I can count my Glock failures of any kind on my fingers.

After some shot timer drill's moved to 50 yards and compared G24 vs G26 accuracy vs steel - fun stuff to stretch a pistol out.

Hey Grant the new Federal HST 9 mm 147 grain I just got from you shot great; I'm switching my carry and HD round from the Gold Dot to the Federal HST.

I will bet my families safety to my Glock's they will go boom every time if needed.

LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-15-13, 14:32
Today I just finished firing about 400 rounds in my new G26 gen4, G34 gen 4 and G24 gen3 and ZERO issues! The Power Ball is over $300M so I may pick up a ticket. Between my 7 Glocks owned starting in early 90's and continuing with 2 new gen 4's this year I've never had a bad one. Somewhere north of 15k rounds fired and I can count my Glock failures of any kind on my fingers.

After some shot timer drill's moved to 50 yards and compared G24 vs G26 accuracy vs steel - fun stuff to stretch a pistol out.

Hey Grant the new Federal HST 9 mm 147 grain I just got from you shot great; I'm switching my carry and HD round from the Gold Dot to the Federal HST.

I will bet my families safety to my Glock's they will go boom every time if needed.
cool story bro.

In other news, many of us have had actual issues with our Gen 4 Glocks. I was a total Glock fan and poo-poo'ed everyones Glock issues as simple internet over-reporting...until is ****ing happened with my brand new Gen 4 G17 duty gun. Put an apex extractor in, and saw 2 more FTE's afterwards. My 2010 G19 is an awesome gun and I wouldn't trade for anything, but my Gen 4 G17 is gone and so is my love for the Glock line.

ptmccain
09-15-13, 14:41
Let me guess, they also never did any PM's to the gun either (like changing out the guide rod assembly). Sorry, that is a pure BS.



Oh, wait, I see, when Grant makes pronouncements on all things Glock or all things in general we are all to receive them as precious pearls of wisdom, unquestionably Gospel truth.

I'll try to keep that in mind.

LOL

:haha:

C4IGrant
09-15-13, 14:41
Today I just finished firing about 400 rounds in my new G26 gen4, G34 gen 4 and G24 gen3 and ZERO issues! The Power Ball is over $300M so I may pick up a ticket. Between my 7 Glocks owned starting in early 90's and continuing with 2 new gen 4's this year I've never had a bad one. Somewhere north of 15k rounds fired and I can count my Glock failures of any kind on my fingers.

After some shot timer drill's moved to 50 yards and compared G24 vs G26 accuracy vs steel - fun stuff to stretch a pistol out.

Hey Grant the new Federal HST 9 mm 147 grain I just got from you shot great; I'm switching my carry and HD round from the Gold Dot to the Federal HST.

I will bet my families safety to my Glock's they will go boom every time if needed.

That is great! I hope you NEVER have a problem. As mentioned earlier, Glock's either show issues like brass to the face or malfunctions early on or somewhere in the 3-5K. So you might have a good one or might have to wait till higher round counts.

Just so we are clear, when you say that you have 7 Glocks and 15K fired, is that PER gun or combined? If that is combined, that is only about 2k PER weapon. Not to sound rude, but this is a very low round count.

When people say things like "I can count on one hand how many malfunctions my gun has had." I always wonder how many rounds they have fired. If that was 1 malfunction in every 27,000rds (like this HK: http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668) then I would say AWESOME. If it was one in every 500 or 1,000rds, that isn't so good.


The HST ammo is awesome and is what I use. Glad you like it.



C4

C4IGrant
09-15-13, 14:47
Oh, wait, I see, when Grant makes pronouncements on all things Glock or all things in general we are all to receive them as precious pearls of wisdom, unquestionably Gospel truth.

I'll try to keep that in mind.

LOL

:haha:

Not in the least. There are people on this forum that are 10 times more knowledgeable than I when it comes to firearms. There are also people that don't know half what I do nor do they have my experience level.

As I stated, my opinions are based off the fact that I build, shoot, fix and talk to professionals in the industry about Glock's FOR A LIVING. If your experience level trumps mine and have come to a different conclusion, I am more than willing to talk about it. Feel free to send me a PM or E-mail so as not to railroad this thread any more than we already have.


C4

C4IGrant
09-15-13, 14:52
cool story bro.

In other news, many of us have had actual issues with our Gen 4 Glocks. I was a total Glock fan and poo-poo'ed everyones Glock issues as simple internet over-reporting...until is ****ing happened with my brand new Gen 4 G17 duty gun. Put an apex extractor in, and saw 2 more FTE's afterwards. My 2010 G19 is an awesome gun and I wouldn't trade for anything, but my Gen 4 G17 is gone and so is my love for the Glock line.

Agree. If you do not have faith in the gun you are going to bet your life on, you need to switch it out.

When I got my GEN 2 19, I was putting some rounds down range in it when I got one of those phase 3 malfunction. Right then, I stopped using it for CCW. I put in an Apex extractor and then began testing it for reliability. After 500 + rounds, I was satisfied with it and began carrying it again.



C4

ptmccain
09-15-13, 14:54
Listening to someone assess Glock quality who admits to being a big time S&W dealer and having a vested $ business interest doesn't hold much water. Attributing QC problems to the market share leader (Glock) who also holds the majority of LE contracts (Glock) when my business is vested in M&P makes good business sense but is far from an unbiased assessment... but there will be sheeple trading in their Glock's for M&P's because Grant said so.



Yup, pretty much this. It is painfully obvious, apparently, to most everyone but Grant.

LOL.

:sarcastic:

C4IGrant
09-15-13, 14:58
Yup, pretty much this. It is painfully obvious, apparently, to most everyone but Grant.

LOL.

:sarcastic:

Except for the fact that what he posted wasn't true. Did you read my response to the post?

I would suggest that you stick to adding constructive (technical) info to this thread and avoid comparing my gun knowledge with yours.



C4

ptmccain
09-15-13, 15:02
Except for the fact that what he posted wasn't true. Did you read my response to the post?

I would suggest that you stick to adding constructive (technical) info to this thread and avoid comparing my gun knowledge with yours.



C4

I'm not comparing my knowledge to yours, Grant. I'm saying that you are coming off like a know-it all jerk on most of these kinds of threads. Sorry, just calling it as I see it. You are sweeping pronouncements based on largely anecdotal evidence, when challenged, you just trot out the "I know more than anyone else because I'm so experienced" line: no hard data, no facts, no metrics, nothing.

It just gets kind of old.

But hey, maybe this is your big thing, so, knock yourself out.

I'll say no more.

C4IGrant
09-15-13, 15:17
I'm not comparing my knowledge to yours, Grant. I'm saying that you are coming off like a know-it all jerk on most of these kinds of threads. Sorry, just calling it as I see it. You are sweeping pronouncements based on largely anecdotal evidence, when challenged, you just trot out the "I know more than anyone else because I'm so experienced" line: no hard data, no facts, no metrics, nothing.

It just gets kind of old.

But hey, maybe this is your big thing, so, knock yourself out.

I'll say no more.

I am not sure how sharing first hand knowledge is coming off as a "know it all jerk." What part of what I have said is anecdotal? Please list. The truth is that I DO KNOW A LOT ABOUT THIS SUBJECT. If that upsets you, log off.

When you go to training classes (as both an instructor and as student) and see Glock's malfunction that is first hand knowledge. When you fix Glocks that won't run, that is first hand knowledge. When your own Glock's malfunction, that is first hand knowledge. When you talk to the BEST firearms instructors in the world and they tell you that they see a lot of malfunction in classes, that is verified second hand knowledge. When you talk to industry consultants that go into Glock's booth at Shot to talk to Glock about their problems (and the factory sales reps thank them for saying what they couldn't), that is verified second hand knowledge.

If you disagree with any of the technical things I have listed, let us have it. Explain why the gun kicks brass to the face. Explain how the Glock extractor and magazine work in the gun. Share your knowledge with us on how to fix the KNOWN problems with the Glock.



C4

SeriousStudent
09-15-13, 17:00
ptmmcain, check your PM's. Baiting, instigating and antagonistic behavior does not fly here. If you wish to remain a member at M4C, you can alter your behavior or leave. You have been previously warned about this.

Do not do it again.

T2C
09-15-13, 17:21
Another "trick" you can try. Is try some older Glock 19 mags, if you have some, that have been "worn in" some. If you don't have any, load yours with a full 15 rounds until they "take a set" to the point that it becomes relatively easy to load that last round. If you still have a problem at that time, you should see Glocks help.

The magazines have a significant influence on how the guns eject. There is the possibility depending on the slide speed, rim size, and magazine strength combination that the case is forced out of the extractors grip before it actually hit the ejector. (This doesn't even count the tolerance variation on ejector position and extractor geometry)

Glock, for whatever reason, designed their weapons such that there is around an 1/8th inch jump between where the case is extracted from the chamber and where it hits the ejector. This means that right after the case mouth moves past the chamber walls it is being acted upon by the cartridge stack under it pushing it up and twisting it in the extractors grip. That means it will hit the ejector at varying angles during the extraction phase. This can and will change the case trajectory. Reducing the upward force from the cartridge stack, the speed of extraction and changing the brass can help. As can changing the extractor/ejector geometry.

Take some dummy rounds and slowly cycle the gun and you will see what I mean.

In the M&P and Sig P226, the empty case hits the ejector pretty much the same time the case mouth clears the chamber walls.

I have never looked at any other designs that closely.

This is good information. I only have the 336 ejector in my Glocks and nothing to compare it to. Does anyone manufacture a longer ejector?

xjustintimex
09-15-13, 17:38
I've had 10 glocks from 2009-present(the dark ages for glocks- although I've seen people having problems with them starting in 07) 3 have had serious issues from the get go to include btf issues, stove pipes, and double feeds. And 2 that started having problems after 2k (btf and stoves pipes.) one only has one every 1k rounds and I can't decide if I trust it. Two others have only had about 1k through them but they did not exhibit any of the issues my problem glocks did at any point. One has a lot of rounds, well over 8k which I shoot in Idpa. It is a g34 with the dreaded m serial number and I have not even replaced the rsa yet. No malfunctions great ejection and the most accurate glock I've ever shot. It is a unicorn... I also have another g19 also m serial numbers that has somewhere around 8k which has also been perfect. I changed the rsa at 2k and have not done it again. I have my dad my first g4 g19 after I ran it for 1500 rounds with no btf or failures for Christmas. It has been fine for him and he has put around 2k through it with me/Idpa. My g26 doesn't have enough rounds to say. I have a lot of experience with late model glocks and they really seem to me that you are highly likely to get a bad one now days. Especially considering my worst one was born last month. I really wish m&p was more accurate... But I love glocks and it is worth it to me to find ones that work. Unfortunately I feel bad reselling the crappy ones so I have a safe full of duds lol. I also have some gen 2 guns which are amazingly reliable but I want the ability to ccw a light.

So I have first hand knowledge of a 50/50 possibly of getting a bad gun, with two guns that really don't have enough rounds to say and since guns have gone bad at 5k then at least for another 1k my dads will be on the fence. Oddly all my problems have been with g19s. I've only seen one bad g17 from 2012 an it was a co-workers gun. I've been running Idpa matches 2 or three times a month for the last year and have seen more glocks than any gun, and they certainly have not all been perfectly reliable. I have not totally lost faith in the platform but if I could find something better I would switch at this point lol...

Hmac
09-15-13, 17:38
This is good information. I only have the 336 ejector in my Glocks and nothing to compare it to. Does anyone manufacture a longer ejector?

You can install a 30274 ejector, as is used in the Gen 4's. If you can't find the ejector by itself, you can buy the whole Gen 4 trigger assembly and pull the ejector out, pop it in your Gen 3 trigger assembly. They're about $8.

T2C
09-15-13, 17:45
You can install a 30274 ejector, as is used in the Gen 4's. If you can't find the ejector by itself, you can buy the whole Gen 4 trigger assembly and pull the ejector out, pop it in your Gen 3 trigger assembly. They're about $8.

Have you measured both? Is part # 30274 longer than part # 336?

I am not currently having any issues, but would like to know.

Hmac
09-15-13, 17:59
Have you measured both? Is part # 30274 longer than part # 336?

I am not currently having any issues, but would like to know.

I don't think it's all about length. The 30274, however, is one of the proposed solutions to ejection problems in Gen 3 Glocks.

xjustintimex
09-15-13, 18:06
I have a gen 2 ejector that looks a lot more like the new ejector than the 336. It is in the g19 that has ran extremely well.

The question for me right now, is what costs more. New glock with fitted extractor and lowered ejection port. Or m&p with fitted barrel and apex trigger + possibility of it still being inaccurate? -sigh- I wish I liked the Lem trigger more too

Hmac
09-15-13, 18:29
I have a gen 2 ejector that looks a lot more like the new ejector than the 336. It is in the g19 that has ran extremely well.

The question for me right now, is what costs more. New glock with fitted extractor and lowered ejection port. Or m&p with fitted barrel and apex trigger + possibility of it still being inaccurate? -sigh- I wish I liked the Lem trigger more too

My solution, which has relegated my now-functional Glock 19 G3 to the back of my safe, was to buy a Walther PPQ. That has been a totally satisfactory solution for me. After installing the new ejector and an Apex FRE, I put about 1000 rounds through the Glock, enough to be satisfied the problem was rectified. I haven't shot it since. The PPQ is superior pistol in every way IMHO.

xjustintimex
09-15-13, 19:39
The problem there is conceal ability. I can't conceal a g17 in the summer but the g19 is doable under a tshirt aiwb. Ppq seems more of the size of a g17 grip. Or are my speculations of the size wrong. I have only fiddled them in the store.

tinkerer
09-15-13, 19:40
The PPQ is superior pistol in every way IMHO.

That is a very bold statement, that I have to disagree with. Glocks are unmatched in aftermarket and factory support. How many different holsters and parts are there for the PPQ? How many for a Glock?

If your PPQ needs repair it pretty much has to go back to the factory, a Glock can be taken to pretty much any Glock Armorer, or if one is feeling adventurous one can attempt to repair it themselves.

Hmac
09-15-13, 20:06
That is a very bold statement, that I have to disagree with. Glocks are unmatched in aftermarket and factory support. How many different holsters and parts are there for the PPQ? How many for a Glock?

If your PPQ needs repair it pretty much has to go back to the factory, a Glock can be taken to pretty much any Glock Armorer, or if one is feeling adventurous one can attempt to repair it themselves.

I have a Glock 19, an M&P 9L, and a PPQ. I stand by the statement. I'll admit that you're right about aftermarket, however the Glock needs it more than the Walther (didn't need any trigger upgrades to make the Walther functional and the Walther ejects just fine). But you're right, we shouldn't downplay the utility of the Glock aftermarket....

http://www.elementarms.com/images/D/P1014106.JPG

C4IGrant
09-15-13, 20:14
That is a very bold statement, that I have to disagree with. Glocks are unmatched in aftermarket and factory support. How many different holsters and parts are there for the PPQ? How many for a Glock?

If your PPQ needs repair it pretty much has to go back to the factory, a Glock can be taken to pretty much any Glock Armorer, or if one is feeling adventurous one can attempt to repair it themselves.

The funny thing is that the PPQ won't need to be repaired. So then you have to ask yourself if it is better to have a gun with a lot support or a gun that runs right out of the box??

I am also of the opinion that the PPQ with the triggerguard mags release is capable of doing mag changes faster than a Glock.


C4

PatrioticDisorder
09-15-13, 20:38
I have a Glock 19, an M&P 9L, and a PPQ. I stand by the statement. I'll admit that you're right about aftermarket, however the Glock needs it more than the Walther (didn't need any trigger upgrades to make the Walther functional and the Walther ejects just fine). But you're right, we shouldn't downplay the utility of the Glock aftermarket....

http://www.elementarms.com/images/D/P1014106.JPG

I agree, who couldn't use a "widow maker" slide cover for their ccw Glock? :sarcastic:

tinkerer
09-15-13, 21:03
But you're right, we shouldn't downplay the utility of the Glock aftermarket....

http://www.elementarms.com/images/D/P1014106.JPG

That's a straw-man argument. There are plenty of useful aftermarket Glock products.

I can't afford to thoroughly test firearms, so I let militaries and police departments test them for me. Let me know when a major military or police department tests and adopts the Walther PPQ. I'm not even aware of the Walther PPQ being tested by someone like Todd Louis Green.

Maybe the Walther PPQ is a better firearm than a Glock 17 or 19, but as of now I just don't see the evidence proving such a position.

AJD
09-15-13, 21:17
That's a straw-man argument. There are plenty of useful aftermarket Glock products.

I can't afford to thoroughly test firearms, so I let militaries and police departments test them for me. Let me know when a major military or police department tests and adopts the Walther PPQ. I'm not even aware of the Walther PPQ being tested by someone like Todd Louis Green.

Maybe the Walther PPQ is a better firearm than a Glock 17 or 19, but as of now I just don't see the evidence proving such a position.

While a logical view I would assert that LE and military organizations are generally far behind the curve and often do things that don't make sense.

Gutshot John
09-15-13, 21:23
I'm not aware of anyone, anywhere, who has won a major match either with the PPQ or an HK. That should say something about how fast a mag change can go with those idiotic paddle mag releases.

Hmac
09-15-13, 21:33
That's a straw-man argument. There are plenty of useful aftermarket Glock products.



Like, trigger upgrades? Better mag releases? Better slide releases? Plugs for the hole in the grip? Grip reduction? Limb saver? Replacement extractors to make it eject properly?

/

tinkerer
09-15-13, 21:37
I'm not aware of anyone, anywhere, who has won a major match either with the PPQ or an HK. That should say something about how fast a mag change can go with those idiotic paddle mag releases.

The new PPQ M2 uses the "American style" push button mag release.

Gutshot John
09-15-13, 21:39
The new PPQ M2 uses the "American style" push button mag release.

An improvement perhaps, than you have $50+ magazines (when you can find them), excessive felt recoil and muzzle flip. A complete lack of available holster options, sight options, an abominable slide release. I will say that it's got a nice trigger, it's slightly better than the Glock.

I had a PPQ for about two months...and dropped it like a hot rock, the guy I sold it to is now looking to drop it as well. Why? He shoots an M&P a whole bunch better.

Most overrated pistol of the 21st century.

tinkerer
09-15-13, 21:46
Like, trigger upgrades? Better mag releases? Better slide releases? Plugs for the hole in the grip? Grip reduction? Limb saver? Replacement devices to make it eject properly?

/

Customization, at any level is good. Different people like different things. Just as an example, I find the stock Glock mag release fine, other people don't, so the aftermarket came out with an extended mag releases. With the PPQ if you don't like the mag release you're basically stuck.

I believe you selected these things to try and say that a factory Glock is a poor product, that needs these aftermarket upgrades. However, I think what you are forgetting is that without these options a user is stuck with whatever the manufacturer decides. Different people like different things and having options is always good.

mrvip27
09-15-13, 22:34
Customization, at any level is good. Different people like different things. Just as an example, I find the stock Glock mag release fine, other people don't, so the aftermarket came out with an extended mag releases. With the PPQ if you don't like the mag release you're basically stuck.

I believe you selected these things to try and say that a factory Glock is a poor product, that needs these aftermarket upgrades. However, I think what you are forgetting is that without these options a user is stuck with whatever the manufacturer decides. Different people like different things and having options is always good.

False. As stated, PPQ M2 = modern release. PPQ M1= paddle.

tinkerer
09-15-13, 22:37
False. As stated, PPQ M2 = modern release. PPQ M1= paddle.

To my knowledge there are no aftermarket PPQ mag releases, either for the PPQ M2 or M1. So the statement is true, so far as you have an option between the factory paddle release or button. If there are extended mag releases available for the PPQ please correct me.

mrvip27
09-15-13, 22:55
To my knowledge there are no aftermarket PPQ mag releases, either for the PPQ M2 or M1. So the statement is true, so far as you have an option between the factory paddle release or button. If there are extended mag releases available for the PPQ please correct me.

Sorry I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about only the paddle release being available not about extended releases. My fault.

Iraqgunz
09-16-13, 00:47
This is an interesting thread and a sore subject. I purchased my first Glock in 1990 and though I migrated away over the years I always ended back up with one. I now have 5 of them. (2) Gen 3 G19's, (2) Gen 3 G17's, and (1) Gen 3 G22. Aside from the issues with the G22 w/Surefire light (fixed with extra strength mag springs) my Glocks have performed reliably. All of them have the 336 ejector housing.

The sore spot is that Glocks were more or less always out of the box 100% reliable. Now there are issues and it seems as if they can't nail it down to any set of specific issues and the confidence is lost.

I am also not very happy with the way Glock has addressed the problems. I wish they would pull their heads from their asses, listen to those that have Glocks and if necessary put a working group together and solve the problems.

YVK
09-16-13, 01:06
I'm not aware of anyone, anywhere, who has won a major match either with the PPQ or an HK. That should say something about how fast a mag change can go with those idiotic paddle mag releases.

You can make a lot better argument against either of these guns or paddle releases, GJ. The one you made says nothing about them, at least to me. Then again, just like you, I form my opinions on personal experience.

mrvip27
09-16-13, 03:22
This is an interesting thread and a sore subject. I purchased my first Glock in 1990 and though I migrated away over the years I always ended back up with one. I now have 5 of them. (2) Gen 3 G19's, (2) Gen 3 G17's, and (1) Gen 3 G22. Aside from the issues with the G22 w/Surefire light (fixed with extra strength mag springs) my Glocks have performed reliably. All of them have the 336 ejector housing.

The sore spot is that Glocks were more or less always out of the box 100% reliable. Now there are issues and it seems as if they can't nail it down to any set of specific issues and the confidence is lost.

I am also not very happy with the way Glock has addressed the problems. I wish they would pull their heads from their asses, listen to those that have Glocks and if necessary put a working group together and solve the problems.

Ya it sort of sucks. I was interested in purchasing a Gen 4 19 :(

Slater
09-16-13, 06:57
I have no personal experience with them, but from what I've heard, the Glock 21 Gen 4 seems to be the success story of the Gen 4 line. Not sure how the .40 caliber variants have turned out.

ptmccain
09-16-13, 07:22
As is always the case, since there are a bazillion Glocks out there and since this is a gun forum and since there are always people who are prone not to like Glocks, you will have a concentration of inflated "doom and gloom" posts.

Just keep it in perspective.

Crow Hunter
09-16-13, 07:49
This is an interesting thread and a sore subject. I purchased my first Glock in 1990 and though I migrated away over the years I always ended back up with one. I now have 5 of them. (2) Gen 3 G19's, (2) Gen 3 G17's, and (1) Gen 3 G22. Aside from the issues with the G22 w/Surefire light (fixed with extra strength mag springs) my Glocks have performed reliably. All of them have the 336 ejector housing.

The sore spot is that Glocks were more or less always out of the box 100% reliable. Now there are issues and it seems as if they can't nail it down to any set of specific issues and the confidence is lost.

I am also not very happy with the way Glock has addressed the problems. I wish they would pull their heads from their asses, listen to those that have Glocks and if necessary put a working group together and solve the problems.

Unfortunately I think part of the big problem is the hyperventilating owners who read the internet too much. Too many "false positives" for Glock to filter to the real issue.

There is obviously a problem with something out there. There are some guns that definitely have an issue. I actually had one years ago, long before any of this popped up, it shot really bad to the left and it threw every single piece of brass fired from it at the middle of my forehead and the few that it didn't, it threw to the left side of the gun. At the time, no one would believe me because of "Glock Perfection", it must have been operator error.:D

However, a lot of people read the internet, hear about an issue with Glocks, start to have a "crisis of confidence" in their uber reliable 100% out of the box "Glock Perfection" that they decided to buy because of what they read about on the internet . So they take their gun out to the range with whatever cheap ammo they can find and film themselves shooting to make sure they "don't have a problem".

They then notice that their new Glock is "throwing brass all over the place" or they have 1 piece of brass thrown at their head in 500 rounds, or they do the "1911 extractor test" and it fails (all of mine do this, and they don't eject brass at my head) and then start to hyperventilate. :rolleyes: Not realizing that Glocks have ALWAYS had inconsitent ejection because of the way they are designed. (Even back when they were "perfect") They start pestering Glock for a RMA to send their weapons back into Glock to be "fixed".

Glock gets it, dutifully goes over it, test fires it and it meets factory specifications. So they send it back, maybe even doing a courtesy replacement of wear parts like the Glock Armorers do at a GSSF match. When they start to compile their data for rejects, their "false positive noise" so outweighs the actual issue they aren't working on the right thing. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), corporations must work off of hard data, rather than internet anecdotes when they make Quality/Financial moves. If their data is contaminated to the point that it isn't reflecting reality, they won't be working to fix the problem.

Of course, the gun still does the same thing it did when the owner got it, so they proceed to the internet to let everyone know how bad Glock sucks and they will never buy another Glock again and how Glock has ruined their reputation.

The good news is that eventually the hypochondriacs among us will get on the interwebs, after being disgusted with their Glocks and discover the next "Glock Perfection" hotness and move on to pestering that manufacturer. Once enough of them get out into their hands so that fleas start showing up, those fleas will get magnified into molehills and then finally mountains, and they will move on to the next errornet hotness.

Eventually Glock will amass enough data on what the actual tolerance stacking issue is to make the changes needed to the component parts to eliminate the issue.

Unfortunately those "true believers" among us will just have to endure the constant cries of the heretics who do not fully understand the true Mysteries of the Glock until they once again see the true genius of Gaston Glock.

Kind of like the 1911 cult of John Moses Browning.:p

Urban_Redneck
09-16-13, 07:59
The sore spot is that Glocks were more or less always out of the box 100% reliable. Now there are issues and it seems as if they can't nail it down to any set of specific issues and the confidence is lost.

I am also not very happy with the way Glock has addressed the problems. I wish they would pull their heads from their asses, listen to those that have Glocks and if necessary put a working group together and solve the problems.

Well stated. IMHO, the crux of the issue.


As is always the case, since there are a bazillion Glocks out there and since this is a gun forum and since there are always people who are prone not to like Glocks, you will have a concentration of inflated "doom and gloom" posts.

Just keep it in perspective.


What you have on M4C is a concentration of folk that shoot a lot, as I have read here and elsewhere, many of "problem" guns don't reveal themselves for 800-1000 rounds. Of the "bazillion" glocks sold in the past 3 years, how many have been fired 1000 times?

The fact that experienced, well trained, and practiced shooters are reporting this defect gives it weight. That is perspective.

YMMV

C4IGrant
09-16-13, 09:08
That's a straw-man argument. There are plenty of useful aftermarket Glock products.

I can't afford to thoroughly test firearms, so I let militaries and police departments test them for me. Let me know when a major military or police department tests and adopts the Walther PPQ. I'm not even aware of the Walther PPQ being tested by someone like Todd Louis Green.

Maybe the Walther PPQ is a better firearm than a Glock 17 or 19, but as of now I just don't see the evidence proving such a position.

Honestly speaking, most of your German firearms manufacturers do not have a real presence in the US LE market. The main reason is cost. Glock's and M&P's usually sell for somewhere in the lower $300 range and then they (Glock and S&W) take in trade their agencies existing guns (which is how they make their money). Typically speaking companies like HK and Walther are not setup for this type of stuff.

Right now, the Walther PPQ is a more reliable (out of the box gun) than the Glock IMHO.


C4

C4IGrant
09-16-13, 09:11
I'm not aware of anyone, anywhere, who has won a major match either with the PPQ or an HK. That should say something about how fast a mag change can go with those idiotic paddle mag releases.

I don't know of one either. What I do know is that in large LE tests between the big players (Glock, HK, S&W, SIG, etc), that the HK wins in both accuracy and reliability. The problem is that they are just too expensive and always lose.

The paddle release is a personal preference. I find them awesome and find that women (small hands) can easily reach them where as they cannot as easily get to a button. While this might not matter to you, it does to a lot of other people.


C4

C4IGrant
09-16-13, 09:24
An improvement perhaps, than you have $50+ magazines (when you can find them), excessive felt recoil and muzzle flip. A complete lack of available holster options, sight options, an abominable slide release. I will say that it's got a nice trigger, it's slightly better than the Glock.

I had a PPQ for about two months...and dropped it like a hot rock, the guy I sold it to is now looking to drop it as well. Why? He shoots an M&P a whole bunch better.

Most overrated pistol of the 21st century.


Mags are $33 here: http://www.kygunco.com/walther-ppq-m2-magazine-9mm-15rd-68518

Most every kydex manufacturer makes holsters for the gun. Sights are a problem, but are getting better with 10-8 and some others coming online.

The PPQ will outshoot the M&P hands down in the accuracy department. That says a lot coming from a guy that no longer sells Walther firearms.



C4

ptmccain
09-16-13, 09:28
Unfortunately I think part of the big problem is the hyperventilating owners who read the internet too much. Too many "false positives" for Glock to filter to the real issue.

There is obviously a problem with something out there. There are some guns that definitely have an issue. I actually had one years ago, long before any of this popped up, it shot really bad to the left and it threw every single piece of brass fired from it at the middle of my forehead and the few that it didn't, it threw to the left side of the gun. At the time, no one would believe me because of "Glock Perfection", it must have been operator error.:D

However, a lot of people read the internet, hear about an issue with Glocks, start to have a "crisis of confidence" in their uber reliable 100% out of the box "Glock Perfection" that they decided to buy because of what they read about on the internet . So they take their gun out to the range with whatever cheap ammo they can find and film themselves shooting to make sure they "don't have a problem".

They then notice that their new Glock is "throwing brass all over the place" or they have 1 piece of brass thrown at their head in 500 rounds, or they do the "1911 extractor test" and it fails (all of mine do this, and they don't eject brass at my head) and then start to hyperventilate. :rolleyes: Not realizing that Glocks have ALWAYS had inconsitent ejection because of the way they are designed. (Even back when they were "perfect") They start pestering Glock for a RMA to send their weapons back into Glock to be "fixed".

Glock gets it, dutifully goes over it, test fires it and it meets factory specifications. So they send it back, maybe even doing a courtesy replacement of wear parts like the Glock Armorers do at a GSSF match. When they start to compile their data for rejects, their "false positive noise" so outweighs the actual issue they aren't working on the right thing. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), corporations must work off of hard data, rather than internet anecdotes when they make Quality/Financial moves. If their data is contaminated to the point that it isn't reflecting reality, they won't be working to fix the problem.

Of course, the gun still does the same thing it did when the owner got it, so they proceed to the internet to let everyone know how bad Glock sucks and they will never buy another Glock again and how Glock has ruined their reputation.

The good news is that eventually the hypochondriacs among us will get on the interwebs, after being disgusted with their Glocks and discover the next "Glock Perfection" hotness and move on to pestering that manufacturer. Once enough of them get out into their hands so that fleas start showing up, those fleas will get magnified into molehills and then finally mountains, and they will move on to the next errornet hotness.

Eventually Glock will amass enough data on what the actual tolerance stacking issue is to make the changes needed to the component parts to eliminate the issue.

Unfortunately those "true believers" among us will just have to endure the constant cries of the heretics who do not fully understand the true Mysteries of the Glock until they once again see the true genius of Gaston Glock.

Kind of like the 1911 cult of John Moses Browning.:p




Somebody copy this and be sure to paste it into any Glock bashing threads going forward. Good dose of reality here.

C4IGrant
09-16-13, 09:28
As is always the case, since there are a bazillion Glocks out there and since this is a gun forum and since there are always people who are prone not to like Glocks, you will have a concentration of inflated "doom and gloom" posts.

Just keep it in perspective.

I don't know of anyone that really has stated that they "hate" Glock's. Hell, I own 7 of them, think they are great, like to work on them and make money by selling them.

The truth is still the truth though.


C4

ptmccain
09-16-13, 09:34
Since all this often comes down to personal experience, here is my experience with Glock.

Have owned and used the following Glock pistols:

Glock 17
Glock 20
Glock 21
Glock 22
Glock 26
Glock 30
Glock 34

They have all been Gen 3 or Gen 4.

I've put a minimum of 2,000 rounds through each of them, EXCEPT, for the G20. Only a couple hundred through it.

I have had, perhaps, four fail to extracts, from any/all of them, over 20,000 rounds and it was with crappy ammo.

I shoot them.
I clean them.
I lube them.
I shoot them some more.

I've sold all but the G26 and G34.

Have put more rounds through the G26 than any of my other Glocks around 5,000 through it. It has performed consistently over 5,000 rounds.

I am thinking of putting a new recoil spring in the G26.

So, there is one man's experience with Glocks, FWIW.

Be careful not to believe everything you read.

:)

C4IGrant
09-16-13, 09:40
Since all this often comes down to personal experience, here is my experience with Glock.

Have owned and used the following Glock pistols:

Glock 17
Glock 20
Glock 21
Glock 22
Glock 26
Glock 30
Glock 34

They have all been Gen 3 or Gen 4.

I've put a minimum of 2,000 rounds through each of them, EXCEPT, for the G20. Only a couple hundred through it.

I have had, perhaps, four fail to extracts, from any/all of them, over 20,000 rounds and it was with crappy ammo.

I shoot them.
I clean them.
I lube them.
I shoot them some more.

I've sold all but the G26 and G34.

Have put more rounds through the G26 than any of my other Glocks around 5,000 through it. It has performed consistently over 5,000 rounds.

I am thinking of putting a new recoil spring in the G26.

So, there is one man's experience with Glocks, FWIW.

Be careful not to believe everything you read.

:)

Oh very true. I have Glock's that run as well. What I also see is Glock's coming into my store to be fixed. I also see Glock's at training classes malfunctioning.

So if I take my GEN 2 19 with its Phase 3 issues and my other Glock's that run and then my experience in training classes and as an armorer and combine it, I know that Glock has some issues going on.

This is ignoring the fact that there are thousands of threads going on around the net with issues.

People must realize when they are big fish in a small pond. Owning one or two Glock's with round counts UNDER 5K per weapon really is a VERY small statistical sampling. Other people see HUNDREDS of Glock's a year and have a much broader picture.


C4

Psalms144.1
09-16-13, 09:40
As is always the case, since there are a bazillion Glocks out there and since this is a gun forum and since there are always people who are prone not to like Glocks, you will have a concentration of inflated "doom and gloom" posts.

Just keep it in perspective.And then there are people like myself, who have been Glock shooters since the first G17s made it across the pond. I competed heavily in the early 90s with a G22, shooting lead rounds, and loved it. When I left the military and entered LE, I was in a "Sig only" agency. I IMMEDIATELY started advocating for approval of Glocks as personal weapons, and eventually got that through the bureaucracy. In 2008, when we were looking to transition out our older P228s, I made a concerted (though ultimately futile) effort to get the Glock as our new issue weapon - to the point where I basically became an outcaste in the Firearms Instructor community for rocking the boat so much. No matter, I could still carry my G19 as a personal weapon - easy day!

Then, in 2010, I became an early adopter of the Gen4. My first pistol was a jamo-matic, shaved polymer out of the recoil spring channel in the frame causing "dead trigger" issues, and lost ALL finish on the front 1/4 of the slide within about 500 rounds. I ended up selling it at a HUGE loss to a guy who was willing to deal with those issues and looking for a beater "range" gun.

No worries - I'll just get a 3rd Gen - those are uber-reliable! Lucked into one of the last OD models - fantastic! Ran like a sewing machine, and more accurate than previous guns. Heaven! Until around the 3K round mark, when I had my first FTE. No worries, I must have "limp wristed it!" (Did I mention I'm 6'1", 235, a career firearms instructor and Glock armorer? Yeah, I was a koolaid drinker all the way!) As the round count increased, I got more and more failures, and more and more erratic ejection. I finally broke down and called the mother ship. Smyrna, after telling me I was a limp wristing cheap ammo shooting fag, (OBTW, I get my ammo for free from the USG, and it's all NATO ball) eventually consented to have the pistol looked at. It was gone for four weeks, during which time I had to lug around my issued P229R DAK. It came back with some parts replaced, and a "meets specifications." Bliss again!

Within the next 1,500 rounds, the problems reappeared. Back to Smyrna for a second trip, with an "elevated priority" this time. In 10 days, had it back - all the same parts replaced "meets specs." Under 1K rounds later, back to the same issues. Third trip back to Smyrna, same treatment, same results. Finally, after dealing with a senior Glock manager directly at the SHOT Show, I got a replacement - a Gen4 at his urging, since they had "worked out the bugs" with the Gen4s.

The replacement gun had FTEs and bad ejection out of the box. Had three other experienced Glock shooters and Glock armorers shoot it to make sure I wasn't doing it wrong. Back to Glock for another replacement - let's go back to the old standby 3rd Gen.

10 days later, new G19, worse than ever. FTEs, erratic ejection, about 50% of brass directly back into my face, hard enough to cut my forehead and scratch the lenses of my Oakleys. Back to Glock, for a "hand picked" replacement Gen4. (At this point, my situation was pretty "elevated" in the Glock community, and I had VP level people handling my calls). What then? You guessed it! The replacement was another jam-o-matic water sprinkler-ejecting POS.

At that point, I felt I'd given Glock PLENTY of opportunities to get a FUNCTIONAL pistol in my duty holster. That's all I wanted, a RELIABLE, shootable pistol to use for LE duty. Never asked for special treatment or custom work or free stuff - I just wanted a pistol I could trust. In their defense, they seemed to try their hardest to make me happy, even eventually "upgrading" me to a Gen4 G21 - but, by that time, I was pretty well done with them.

So, am I a "hater" and a "hypochondriac?" If so, then so be it. I still have Glocks - two G19s and a G23 - and wish I had confidence in them. But, until I see proof that I can rely on them to bring me through the other side of a potential gunfight, I'm carrying my HKs - which, while expensive and burdened with a trigger that's harder to shoot as fast as the Glock, are 100% reliable, and more accurate than any Glock I've ever owned.

Sorry about the rant. If you've got a Glock that works - GREAT! I wish I were in your shoes, because my financial situation sucks and it's a heck of a lot cheaper to keep a stockpile of Glock mags and parts than HK mags and parts. But, unfortunately, I have to deal with the reality I faced, which, it seems, mirrors that of numerous other recent Glock purchasers.

Without getting into specifics, I'm aware of at least two local agencies who are experiencing a variety of reliability issues with their Gen4 G22s, so, I really don't think that everything has been "worked out" in Glockland.

Regards,

Kevin

C4IGrant
09-16-13, 09:43
And then there are people like myself, who have been Glock shooters since the first G17s made it across the pond. I competed heavily in the early 90s with a G22, shooting lead rounds, and loved it. When I left the military and entered LE, I was in a "Sig only" agency. I IMMEDIATELY started advocating for approval of Glocks as personal weapons, and eventually got that through the bureaucracy. In 2008, when we were looking to transition out our older P228s, I made a concerted (though ultimately futile) effort to get the Glock as our new issue weapon - to the point where I basically became an outcaste in the Firearms Instructor community for rocking the boat so much. No matter, I could still carry my G19 as a personal weapon - easy day!

Then, in 2010, I became an early adopter of the Gen4. My first pistol was a jamo-matic, shaved polymer out of the recoil spring channel in the frame causing "dead trigger" issues, and lost ALL finish on the front 1/4 of the slide within about 500 rounds. I ended up selling it at a HUGE loss to a guy who was willing to deal with those issues and looking for a beater "range" gun.

No worries - I'll just get a 3rd Gen - those are uber-reliable! Lucked into one of the last OD models - fantastic! Ran like a sewing machine, and more accurate than previous guns. Heaven! Until around the 3K round mark, when I had my first FTE. No worries, I must have "limp wristed it!" (Did I mention I'm 6'1", 235, a career firearms instructor and Glock armorer? Yeah, I was a koolaid drinker all the way!) As the round count increased, I got more and more failures, and more and more erratic ejection. I finally broke down and called the mother ship. Smyrna, after telling me I was a limp wristing cheap ammo shooting fag, (OBTW, I get my ammo for free from the USG, and it's all NATO ball) eventually consented to have the pistol looked at. It was gone for four weeks, during which time I had to lug around my issued P229R DAK. It came back with some parts replaced, and a "meets specifications." Bliss again!

Within the next 1,500 rounds, the problems reappeared. Back to Smyrna for a second trip, with an "elevated priority" this time. In 10 days, had it back - all the same parts replaced "meets specs." Under 1K rounds later, back to the same issues. Third trip back to Smyrna, same treatment, same results. Finally, after dealing with a senior Glock manager directly at the SHOT Show, I got a replacement - a Gen4 at his urging, since they had "worked out the bugs" with the Gen4s.

The replacement gun had FTEs and bad ejection out of the box. Had three other experienced Glock shooters and Glock armorers shoot it to make sure I wasn't doing it wrong. Back to Glock for another replacement - let's go back to the old standby 3rd Gen.

10 days later, new G19, worse than ever. FTEs, erratic ejection, about 50% of brass directly back into my face, hard enough to cut my forehead and scratch the lenses of my Oakleys. Back to Glock, for a "hand picked" replacement Gen4. (At this point, my situation was pretty "elevated" in the Glock community, and I had VP level people handling my calls). What then? You guessed it! The replacement was another jam-o-matic water sprinkler-ejecting POS.

At that point, I felt I'd given Glock PLENTY of opportunities to get a FUNCTIONAL pistol in my duty holster. That's all I wanted, a RELIABLE, shootable pistol to use for LE duty. Never asked for special treatment or custom work or free stuff - I just wanted a pistol I could trust. In their defense, they seemed to try their hardest to make me happy, even eventually "upgrading" me to a Gen4 G21 - but, by that time, I was pretty well done with them.

So, am I a "hater" and a "hypochondriac?" If so, then so be it. I still have Glocks - two G19s and a G23 - and wish I had confidence in them. But, until I see proof that I can rely on them to bring me through the other side of a potential gunfight, I'm carrying my HKs - which, while expensive and burdened with a trigger that's harder to shoot as fast as the Glock, are 100% reliable, and more accurate than any Glock I've ever owned.

Sorry about the rant. If you've got a Glock that works - GREAT! I wish I were in your shoes, because my financial situation sucks and it's a heck of a lot cheaper to keep a stockpile of Glock mags and parts than HK mags and parts. But, unfortunately, I have to deal with the reality I faced, which, it seems, mirrors that of numerous other recent Glock purchasers.

Without getting into specifics, I'm aware of at least two local agencies who are experiencing a variety of reliability issues with their Gen4 G22s, so, I really don't think that everything has been "worked out" in Glockland.

Regards,

Kevin

Somebody copy this and be sure to paste this into any Glock threads where people are not acknowledging there is a major problem going on. Good dose of reality here!!

SPQR476
09-16-13, 09:58
I felt the same way a while back. All my Glocks were GTG. I assumed that most of the issues that made it to the internet were inexperienced shooters, limp-wristing, and what not, or guys that disassembled their pistol and had no idea what the heck they were doing.

I've got a pile of Glocks, magazines stacked like cordwood, I've got one on me right now, holsters, SIRT trainers, a pile of spare parts, RMR'd guns, I'm a Glock armorer for the 2 cents that is worth, and have done a ton of work to my Glocks and other Glocks far beyond parts swapping. I understand the system, I know how it works, and I really, really like it.

All but one of my Glocks are completely perfect, and even it's not <too> bad. I've seen and shot too many affected guns now to ignore it, though, from classes, associates, etc. There are real issues. Glad you're not affected. I wouldn't give two squats even if it were 100% across the board, and every gun came from the factory bad, but there was a known fix. The problem is that I've seen guns that are fixed with an ejector swap, guns that were fixed with an ejector and extractor/spring and associated bearing parts swap, and some that just can't be fixed after a pile of ammo, a bunch of parts swapping, and a ton of frustration, and get sold off out of frustration with full disclosure. Mostly 19s in this category. Then there are guns that seem fixed, but the problem crops back up in another 500-1000 rounds.

I really like the Glock platform, and I will probably never switch from it as my primary. Too many advantages as long as they are 100% reliable, and I've got enough of them that I'll be just fine. I just wish they could sort this out. I have a hard time using the "easy button" when someone asks what pistol they should buy lately. Before, it was an easy G17 or G19 for the answer. Now, I'm not as confident in that recommendation.

I don't buy the noise factor. We make stuff. Yes, there are people that have complaints based on seeing someone else with an issue, and there turns out not to be an issue. I'm sure this is a frustrating problem due to the intermittent and inconsistent manner of its appearance. If folks are sending the guns in, they ought to be able to figure it out, though, at least enough that the problems should be "Oh, my Glock had issues, but the factory fixed it, and it's been 100% since."

Crow Hunter
09-16-13, 09:59
And then there are people like myself, who have been Glock shooters since the first G17s made it across the pond. I competed heavily in the early 90s with a G22, shooting lead rounds, and loved it. When I left the military and entered LE, I was in a "Sig only" agency. I IMMEDIATELY started advocating for approval of Glocks as personal weapons, and eventually got that through the bureaucracy. In 2008, when we were looking to transition out our older P228s, I made a concerted (though ultimately futile) effort to get the Glock as our new issue weapon - to the point where I basically became an outcaste in the Firearms Instructor community for rocking the boat so much. No matter, I could still carry my G19 as a personal weapon - easy day!

Then, in 2010, I became an early adopter of the Gen4. My first pistol was a jamo-matic, shaved polymer out of the recoil spring channel in the frame causing "dead trigger" issues, and lost ALL finish on the front 1/4 of the slide within about 500 rounds. I ended up selling it at a HUGE loss to a guy who was willing to deal with those issues and looking for a beater "range" gun.

No worries - I'll just get a 3rd Gen - those are uber-reliable! Lucked into one of the last OD models - fantastic! Ran like a sewing machine, and more accurate than previous guns. Heaven! Until around the 3K round mark, when I had my first FTE. No worries, I must have "limp wristed it!" (Did I mention I'm 6'1", 235, a career firearms instructor and Glock armorer? Yeah, I was a koolaid drinker all the way!) As the round count increased, I got more and more failures, and more and more erratic ejection. I finally broke down and called the mother ship. Smyrna, after telling me I was a limp wristing cheap ammo shooting fag, (OBTW, I get my ammo for free from the USG, and it's all NATO ball) eventually consented to have the pistol looked at. It was gone for four weeks, during which time I had to lug around my issued P229R DAK. It came back with some parts replaced, and a "meets specifications." Bliss again!

Within the next 1,500 rounds, the problems reappeared. Back to Smyrna for a second trip, with an "elevated priority" this time. In 10 days, had it back - all the same parts replaced "meets specs." Under 1K rounds later, back to the same issues. Third trip back to Smyrna, same treatment, same results. Finally, after dealing with a senior Glock manager directly at the SHOT Show, I got a replacement - a Gen4 at his urging, since they had "worked out the bugs" with the Gen4s.

The replacement gun had FTEs and bad ejection out of the box. Had three other experienced Glock shooters and Glock armorers shoot it to make sure I wasn't doing it wrong. Back to Glock for another replacement - let's go back to the old standby 3rd Gen.

10 days later, new G19, worse than ever. FTEs, erratic ejection, about 50% of brass directly back into my face, hard enough to cut my forehead and scratch the lenses of my Oakleys. Back to Glock, for a "hand picked" replacement Gen4. (At this point, my situation was pretty "elevated" in the Glock community, and I had VP level people handling my calls). What then? You guessed it! The replacement was another jam-o-matic water sprinkler-ejecting POS.

At that point, I felt I'd given Glock PLENTY of opportunities to get a FUNCTIONAL pistol in my duty holster. That's all I wanted, a RELIABLE, shootable pistol to use for LE duty. Never asked for special treatment or custom work or free stuff - I just wanted a pistol I could trust. In their defense, they seemed to try their hardest to make me happy, even eventually "upgrading" me to a Gen4 G21 - but, by that time, I was pretty well done with them.

So, am I a "hater" and a "hypochondriac?" If so, then so be it. I still have Glocks - two G19s and a G23 - and wish I had confidence in them. But, until I see proof that I can rely on them to bring me through the other side of a potential gunfight, I'm carrying my HKs - which, while expensive and burdened with a trigger that's harder to shoot as fast as the Glock, are 100% reliable, and more accurate than any Glock I've ever owned.

Sorry about the rant. If you've got a Glock that works - GREAT! I wish I were in your shoes, because my financial situation sucks and it's a heck of a lot cheaper to keep a stockpile of Glock mags and parts than HK mags and parts. But, unfortunately, I have to deal with the reality I faced, which, it seems, mirrors that of numerous other recent Glock purchasers.

Without getting into specifics, I'm aware of at least two local agencies who are experiencing a variety of reliability issues with their Gen4 G22s, so, I really don't think that everything has been "worked out" in Glockland.

Regards,

Kevin

You specifically aren't one of the "hypochondriacs" that I was referring to.

Your information should be excellent data for Glock and hopefully more people like you will send info and guns to Glock. You obviously have/had a problem and aren't hyperventilating over what you read on the internet. I had a similar experience to you years ago, but mine got fixed.

I am referring to the guys that will buy the Glock and then immediately post on the internet wanting to start changing out parts to "make sure they don't start having a problem", before they even find out they have a problem.

The same ones are on M&P threads about accuracy and as soon as there are enough Walthers and HKs in large enough numbers in the hands of shooters, someone will get a lemon and it will start on them.

Unfortunately, it is the way of things.;)

C4IGrant
09-16-13, 10:08
You specifically aren't one of the "hypochondriacs" that I was referring to.

Your information should be excellent data for Glock and hopefully more people like you will send info and guns to Glock. You obviously have/had a problem and aren't hyperventilating over what you read on the internet. I had a similar experience to you years ago, but mine got fixed.

I am referring to the guys that will buy the Glock and then immediately post on the internet wanting to start changing out parts to "make sure they don't start having a problem", before they even find out they have a problem.

The same ones are on M&P threads about accuracy and as soon as there are enough Walthers and HKs in large enough numbers in the hands of shooters, someone will get a lemon and it will start on them.

Unfortunately, it is the way of things.;)


Totally agree with you. Never "fix" a new gun until you either run into a problem and or run into a problem and the factory cannot fix it.

Anyone that doesn't think that ANY manufacturer can put out a lemon or two or three a month is a M O R O N.

With that said, Glock has a serious problem on their hands. This has been substantiated by employees inside of the company.

As far as the M&P 9mm goes, I have never seen one (with the older twist rate) shoot any better than 3 inches at 25yds (off a bench). I am SURE there is one out, but I am unaware of it. So again, there was a serious accuracy problem with the gun.


C4

Joe Mamma
09-16-13, 10:10
That's unfortunate. I remember when the G-17 Gen 3 used to be the poster child for out-of-the-box reliability, and a lot of people thought that the Gen 4 would continue that tradition.

Yeah, it's sad. Remington 870 shotguns used to be considered another example of unquestionable and boring reliability. That's no longer the case either. That's just the way it is.

Joe Mamma

Tzintzuntzan
09-16-13, 10:48
Honestly speaking if we had a class with 100 students, round count of 5,000 per student and were divided into these groups:

HK P30/USP/HK45 X 25
S&W M&P X 25
Glock GEN 4 X 25
SIG 226 X 25

My money on the gun with the most malfunctions would be the Gen 4 Glock.


C4

Grant, are you saying that Sig has upped the quality of recently manufactured P2XXs? If so that is good to hear. If not, then there must really be problems with the Glock line.

brickboy240
09-16-13, 10:50
Time to start treating Glocks as we have SIGs for a very long time.

Want a good one? Buy an older one.

The old W. German SIGs (especially the 9mm P226 and P228s) have been solid guns.

I guess we need to treat Glocks in the same manner...buy older ones.

Still, that said I had a troublesome Gen3 G19 (made in 4-2012) and the Apex extractor and Gen4 ejector totally cured it. Yes...you should not HAVE to do this to a new Glock but it was not a terrible hard or overly expensive fix and almost 2000 rounds later the thing runs like a sewing machine.

-brickboy240

Hmac
09-16-13, 10:57
Time to start treating Glocks as we have SIGs for a very long time.

Want a good one? Buy an older one.

The old W. German SIGs (especially the 9mm P226 and P228s) have been solid guns.

I guess we need to treat Glocks in the same manner...buy older ones.

I agree, looks like Glock's best days are behind them. I'll never buy another one, even though I was able to make my Glock 19 into a functional firearm, finally, via the the same route you took. It's a good gun now, but the PPQ is better so I never use it.

Slater
09-16-13, 10:59
For anyone that's been keeping up with Gen 4 issues, does it appear that the G-19 has seen more problems than the G-17, vice versa, or about equal?

Gutshot John
09-16-13, 11:05
I seem to recall LAV coming out and saying that certain mods needed to be done to the new HK45 to make it function as intended, so Glock isn't really the only one that requires some modification to run better. HK has a reputation (deserved or not) that they don't like outsiders telling them how their guns should be built and so you end up with things the Mk23.

I know I happily buy M&Ps and add Apex parts to improve performance. Every Glock I've ever bought, has significant modifications done to it (3.5# connector, smooth trigger, polished ramp, grip reductions, tuned ejection, extended slide release and often new sights) so I'm not sure why bone stock is desirable or why after-market modification is a bad thing.

I think it's telling that in formal competition, where speed and accuracy are both crucial, that if a pistol doesn't shine there, no matter how accurate it may be, it's not an effective choice.

The Mk23 is an extremely accurate gun, but if it wasn't suitable for those for whom it was designed, it isn't suitable in general.

I'll look seriously at HK/Walter again, if/when they start winning some matches. I doubt very seriously that you will find a gun with as solid a competition pedigree as a Glock.

Tzintzuntzan
09-16-13, 11:11
I thought he meant that the ergos of the trigger guard sucked along with the trigger. That or something about the grip, it's been a while since I read that article or read that sub forum post.

C4IGrant
09-16-13, 12:15
Grant, are you saying that Sig has upped the quality of recently manufactured P2XXs? If so that is good to hear. If not, then there must really be problems with the Glock line.

This is what I am being told by someone inside of the factory.


As with anything, pay attention to threads on various forums about new production SIG's.


C4

C4IGrant
09-16-13, 12:27
I seem to recall LAV coming out and saying that certain mods needed to be done to the new HK45 to make it function as intended, so Glock isn't really the only one that requires some modification to run better. HK has a reputation (deserved or not) that they don't like outsiders telling them how their guns should be built and so you end up with things the Mk23.

The mod to the HK45 is really dependent on hand size. With that said, it is to undercut the triggerguard. Nothing "mechanically" needed to be done. There might been something else, but honestly cannot remember.

There is a big difference between removing some plastic and changing out the extractor, lowering the ejection port window, etc.



C4

DreadPirateMoyer
09-16-13, 12:35
I seem to recall LAV coming out and saying that certain mods needed to be done to the new HK45 to make it function as intended, so Glock isn't really the only one that requires some modification to run better. HK has a reputation (deserved or not) that they don't like outsiders telling them how their guns should be built and so you end up with things the Mk23.

I know I happily buy M&Ps and add Apex parts to improve performance. Every Glock I've ever bought, has significant modifications done to it (3.5# connector, smooth trigger, polished ramp, grip reductions, tuned ejection, extended slide release and often new sights) so I'm not sure why bone stock is desirable or why after-market modification is a bad thing.

I think it's telling that in formal competition, where speed and accuracy are both crucial, that if a pistol doesn't shine there, no matter how accurate it may be, it's not an effective choice.

The Mk23 is an extremely accurate gun, but if it wasn't suitable for those for whom it was designed, it isn't suitable in general.

I'll look seriously at HK/Walter again, if/when they start winning some matches. I doubt very seriously that you will find a gun with as solid a competition pedigree as a Glock.

LAV's mods were ergonomic in nature and had nothing to do with the actual function of the pistol, not to mention they only apply to the HK45, not 45C. Specifically, he didn't like how the mag release rubbed his finger. Comparing that to Glock's current problems is disingenuous; they are very far apart, with Glock's current issue actually being functional in nature.

On top of that, there are so many more important things to worry about for self-defense handguns other than how they perform in competition. Choosing a fighting gun based on winning comps is crazy. Glock could win every competition from now until eternity and I wouldn't buy another one until their issues are fixed out of the box.

Hmac
09-16-13, 12:45
I think it's telling that in formal competition, where speed and accuracy are both crucial, that if a pistol doesn't shine there, no matter how accurate it may be, it's not an effective choice.


So are we talking out-of-the-box pistols, or modified?

I mean, I agree...Glock is a great platform to form the basis of an accurate, reliable, and ergonomically pleasing handgun for competition with enough aftermarket parts and gunsmithing.

Gutshot John
09-16-13, 13:59
The first point was perfection in firearms doesn't exist and that Germans tend to overengineer at the expense of shootability. Glock's success has been because they've delivered both, at a reasonable price, over millions of samples and decades.

The second point was that competition provides the best quantifiable measure of a pistol's performance. Individual shooters may vary, but when you don't see any of the top shooters in the world using a particular firearm, it should be considered telling.

Despite its (apparently hapless and incompetent) industrial engineers, flawed design, decades of incompetent firearms manufacturing, poor shootability and reliability, Glock somehow seems to have "deceived" the most competition shooters into using it, with the wholly inaccurate M&P as the second closest runner up.

Accordingly when none of the winning guns have a feature that is claimed to give a speed advantage, without any quantifiable measurement, that claim is rightfully subject to skepticism. Same goes with claims of unreliability, inaccuracy on the top two gun choices of competition shooters...

Unless the claim is that they don't shoot any more than the "average Glock owner", the argument begins to fall apart.

Gutshot John
09-16-13, 14:03
So are we talking out-of-the-box pistols, or modified?

Both...neither. Apples to apples.

How many top competition shooters have won or placed in a major match with either the PPQ or HK P30/45?

How many top shooters even use those guns?

C4IGrant
09-16-13, 14:14
Both...neither. Apples to apples.

How many top competition shooters have won or placed in a major match with either the PPQ or HK P30/45?

How many top shooters even use those guns?

If we look at the guns being used, only two of them come up from Glock. They are the 34/35.

http://www.shootingusa.com/SIGHTING_IN_SHOWS/27-11_GUNS_OF_USPSA/27-11_guns_of_uspsa.html


HK does not make anything like a 34 or a 35 so....



C4

Gutshot John
09-16-13, 14:22
http://www.idpa.com/blog/post/2012/11/01/Infographic-2012-IDPA-Nationals.aspx

34% were Glocks
31% were S&Ws

More than all other guns combined.

Still no HK or PPQ...anywhere to be seen on either list.

Surely if either gun was quantifiably better, we would see at least one top shooter using one.

Things that make you go hmmmmmm.

brickboy240
09-16-13, 14:24
I did not lower the ejection port on my troublesome 3rd gen G19. Just swapped the ejector and put in the Apex extractor and their supplied extractor spring.

Almost 2000rds of all flavors and no brass even close to my head and no jams at all. In fact, it ejects much like my 2nd gen G17.

Fixed?

Well...as far as I am concerned...yeah...2000rds with no troubles is fixed.

So you might not have to lower the ejection port...this is something you will have to test as you go along.

-brickboy240

C4IGrant
09-16-13, 14:30
http://www.idpa.com/blog/post/2012/11/01/Infographic-2012-IDPA-Nationals.aspx

34% were Glocks
31% were S&Ws

More than all other guns combined.

Still no HK or PPQ...anywhere to be seen on either list.

Surely if either gun was quantifiably better, we would see at least one top shooter using one.

Things that make you go hmmmmmm.

In IPDA, yes. I am not sure if anyone shoots IPDA any more though. :D

HK's are expensive. People are cheap. This is one of the main reasons.

The PPQ is a very new platform. Give it time.

I am willing to bet that if you see a striker fired P30, the game would change considerable. The P30 is simply more accurate and more reliable than most anything else out there.


C4

Gutshot John
09-16-13, 14:38
HK's are expensive. People are cheap. This is one of the main reasons.

STIs and Wilsons are plenty expensive (twice as expensive as an HK) so I'm not sure I buy that argument.

Factor in that professional competition shooters have sponsors...they don't tend to pay for their own gear...and you have to wonder why HK or Walther can't field a winning team given a world-beater.


The PPQ is a very new platform. Give it time.

It's going on 3 years now, surely if it was a qualitative/quantitative improvement, at least someone would be using one.


I am willing to bet that if you see a striker fired P30, the game would change considerable. The P30 is simply more accurate and more reliable than most anything else out there.
C4

I don't disagree, but until then... its not nearly as shootable.

juliomorris
09-16-13, 15:02
Yup, Grant just jumped the shark.

;)

And since we are now swapping stories, a few weeks ago I met a former Navy Seal (Vietnam era) and retired LEO (SWAT) who has a running bet with a buddy of his. This guy teaches handgun classes literally around the world.

They each have a Glock Gen 2 G17 and are waiting to see which one of them has to clean it first.

He has put 40,000 rounds through his Glock and has never cleaned it, just light lube. He has replaced the recoil spring. That's it.

His buddy has around 30K through his.

So far neither of them has lost a bet.

YMMV.

Sorry I call BS, I have to clean mine (3) about every 1K or they start malfunctioning. The last class I was in had 3 glocks and all 3 had failures to include mine, it was loaned to someone who brought a Taurus. None of the MP's or HK's or even the lone Ruger had any issues out of 500 rds each. I sill like my Gen 2's.

Gutshot John
09-16-13, 15:07
Sorry I call BS, I have to clean mine (3) about every 1K or they start malfunctioning. The last class I was in had 3 glocks and all 3 had failures to include mine, it was loaned to someone who brought a Taurus. None of the MP's or HK's or even the lone Ruger had any issues out of 500 rds each. I sill like my Gen 2's.

You do know what "YMMV" means?

Iraqgunz
09-16-13, 15:10
Well I actually do know some local Glock guys that have in fact had ejection issues (and it wasn't just 1 or 2 rounds) it was multiple times.

So I don't buy the internet hype story. I remember when Larry Vickers was out in Phoenix earlier this year doing a pistol class and there were quite a few Gen 4's (as I recall) having issues.


Unfortunately I think part of the big problem is the hyperventilating owners who read the internet too much. Too many "false positives" for Glock to filter to the real issue.

There is obviously a problem with something out there. There are some guns that definitely have an issue. I actually had one years ago, long before any of this popped up, it shot really bad to the left and it threw every single piece of brass fired from it at the middle of my forehead and the few that it didn't, it threw to the left side of the gun. At the time, no one would believe me because of "Glock Perfection", it must have been operator error.:D

However, a lot of people read the internet, hear about an issue with Glocks, start to have a "crisis of confidence" in their uber reliable 100% out of the box "Glock Perfection" that they decided to buy because of what they read about on the internet . So they take their gun out to the range with whatever cheap ammo they can find and film themselves shooting to make sure they "don't have a problem".

They then notice that their new Glock is "throwing brass all over the place" or they have 1 piece of brass thrown at their head in 500 rounds, or they do the "1911 extractor test" and it fails (all of mine do this, and they don't eject brass at my head) and then start to hyperventilate. :rolleyes: Not realizing that Glocks have ALWAYS had inconsitent ejection because of the way they are designed. (Even back when they were "perfect") They start pestering Glock for a RMA to send their weapons back into Glock to be "fixed".

Glock gets it, dutifully goes over it, test fires it and it meets factory specifications. So they send it back, maybe even doing a courtesy replacement of wear parts like the Glock Armorers do at a GSSF match. When they start to compile their data for rejects, their "false positive noise" so outweighs the actual issue they aren't working on the right thing. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), corporations must work off of hard data, rather than internet anecdotes when they make Quality/Financial moves. If their data is contaminated to the point that it isn't reflecting reality, they won't be working to fix the problem.

Of course, the gun still does the same thing it did when the owner got it, so they proceed to the internet to let everyone know how bad Glock sucks and they will never buy another Glock again and how Glock has ruined their reputation.

The good news is that eventually the hypochondriacs among us will get on the interwebs, after being disgusted with their Glocks and discover the next "Glock Perfection" hotness and move on to pestering that manufacturer. Once enough of them get out into their hands so that fleas start showing up, those fleas will get magnified into molehills and then finally mountains, and they will move on to the next errornet hotness.

Eventually Glock will amass enough data on what the actual tolerance stacking issue is to make the changes needed to the component parts to eliminate the issue.

Unfortunately those "true believers" among us will just have to endure the constant cries of the heretics who do not fully understand the true Mysteries of the Glock until they once again see the true genius of Gaston Glock.

Kind of like the 1911 cult of John Moses Browning.:p

Crow Hunter
09-16-13, 15:21
Well I actually do know some local Glock guys that have in fact had ejection issues (and it wasn't just 1 or 2 rounds) it was multiple times.

So I don't buy the internet hype story. I remember when Larry Vickers was out in Phoenix earlier this year doing a pistol class and there were quite a few Gen 4's (as I recall) having issues.

I have no doubt there are issues, probably quite a few.

I had issues years ago, before any of this ever started happening and I was told that I was "limp wristing" by a couple respected trainers. But I wasn't. I only had that problem on that single G19. The other 2 I had at the time didn't do that.

But I think the volume of people having "problems" because of what they read on the internet is swamping the actual problems to the point that Glock is having trouble separating the wheat from the chaff.

Probably also why they are getting to the point they don't immediately send people RMA tags and having them shipped in for inspection and instead tell people to look at other things first.

Hmac
09-16-13, 15:23
Both...neither. Apples to apples.

How many top competition shooters have won or placed in a major match with either the PPQ or HK P30/45?

How many top shooters even use those guns?

How many top competition shooters use a Glock that hasn't been massaged into unrecognizability? Competition says nothing about the gun. It speaks to the quality and engineering of the aftermarket upgrades and gunsmithing.

Competition results wants to make me buy a Glock in the same way that NASCAR results make me want to buy a Dodge....not at all. Some people are impressed by those meaningless results, however.

thopkins22
09-16-13, 15:30
How many top competition shooters use a Glock that hasn't been massaged into unrecognizability? Competition says nothing about the gun. It speaks to the quality and engineering of the aftermarket upgrades and gunsmithing.

Competition results wants to make me buy a Glock in the same way that NASCAR results make me want to buy a Dodge....not at all. Some people are impressed by those meaningless results, however.

Actually I think you'll find that most of them aren't actually changed that much...in fact other than some polishing and sights very few upgrades are common beyond perhaps a lighter recoil spring assembly. Certainly that's true in Production/SSP. Honestly other than weights starting to appear on the pistol it's pretty true in Limited and Limited 10 as well.

C4IGrant
09-16-13, 15:33
STIs and Wilsons are plenty expensive (twice as expensive as an HK) so I'm not sure I buy that argument.


Actually it does as those guns (STI, etc) are for LIMITED competitions. Those are very high end gun games and people have to have money in order to keep up.

If you look at production class, they are running 34/35's and M&P's.


Factor in that professional competition shooters have sponsors...they don't tend to pay for their own gear...and you have to wonder why HK or Walther can't field a winning team given a world-beater.

Since HK and Walther don't make a 5" gun with a 2.5LBS trigger, I can understand why they don't put together a competition team (kind of pointless).




I don't disagree, but until then... its not nearly as shootable.

There was a guy in the last Hackathorn advanced pistol class. He ran a P30. Smoked all the other students in the class AND his gun didn't have any malfunctions (unlike the folks running Glock's).

While I buy the fact that striker fired guns are easier to shoot, what it really comes down to is if you put time into it, the LEM can be just as fast as anything else.


C4

Gutshot John
09-16-13, 15:34
How many top competition shooters use a Glock that hasn't been massaged into unrecognizability?

Very very few, especially in IDPA, which is why the G34/35 came out.

A "stock" competition ready gun.

Gutshot John
09-16-13, 15:43
Actually it does as those guns (STI, etc) are for LIMITED competitions.

Sure, and they still outnumber the HK/Walther "production" guns.


If you look at production class, they are running 34/35's and M&P's.

Uhm, I think you're proving my point. According to the IDPA numbers most were indeed 34/35s but the remaining 10% (of total guns) were other Glocks. That's still more than all the HKs/Walthers put together by several times.

But again you're talking about Glocks/M&Ps, two guns that have gotten a disproportionate amount of negative forum attention for reliability/accuracy problems, are still used WAY more often than either the HK or PPQ...many, many times over.


Since HK and Walther don't make a 5" gun with a 2.5LBS trigger, I can understand why they don't put together a competition team (kind of pointless).

Not really buying that at all. I personally saw Sevigny clean a rack in under 2.5 seconds with a bone stock G21 at the "Street Gun" Nationals.

Pointless how?

Lots of competitions use stock/production guns. Surely if they were qualitatively better at least someone would be using them.


There was a guy in the last Hackathorn advanced pistol class. He ran a P30. Smoked all the other students in the class AND his gun didn't have any malfunctions (unlike the folks running Glock's).

Sure against most people, which you've already conceded shoot less than a few hundred rounds in a month, that doesn't surprise me.

Put him up against serious competitors who shoot AT LEAST that in a day, and then you'll have a valid comparison. Until then apples and oranges.


While I buy the fact that striker fired guns are easier to shoot, what it really comes down to is if you put time into it, the LEM can be just as fast as anything else.
C4

A nice trigger is one factor of shootability, the ability to quickly follow-up is very much a factor of bore axis, striker fired guns will always have that advantage...assuming they bother to lower it which the PPQ doesn't.

HK triggers are horrible. Them LEM is an improvement, but it's hard not to improve on horrible.

If HKs and PPQs offered a real shooting advantage, they would be used a lot more (let alone by someone serious) in competition.

That they aren't used, let alone place, in competition is what I call a big fat hairy clue.

SPQR476
09-16-13, 15:45
http://www.hk-usa.com/civilian_products/shootingTeam.asp

Gutshot John
09-16-13, 15:55
Ahhh they do have a shooting team. Cool.

Where did they place recently? Because the only dates on their schedule are 2011, and as I look at a few of the results (2011 Bianchi Cup), I don't see any in the top 10.

SPQR476
09-16-13, 16:05
Ahhh they do have a shooting team. Cool.

Where did they place recently? Because the only dates on their schedule are 2011, and as I look at a few of the results (2011 Bianchi Cup), I don't see any in the top 10.

Promoting civilian firearms usage has never been a top priority for the company in question. May have tested the waters a bit, but I'm not sure this is even active anymore. Not saying you could or could not compete with an HK. However, the ability to run cocked and locked and clean up the SA trigger makes it no more difficult to run than say, Sigs or what not.

Gutshot John
09-16-13, 16:09
Promoting civilian firearms usage has never been a top priority for the company in question. ;) Looks like they at least went through the motions at one point.

Yep that makes sense.


However, the ability to run cocked and locked and clean up the SA trigger makes it no more difficult to run than say, Sigs or what not.

Yeah I'm not seeing many Sigs there either. ~4% according to the infographic, but I'm betting that's more than HK/Walther put together as well.

Devildawg2531
09-16-13, 16:33
I am willing to bet that if you see a striker fired P30, the game would change considerable. The P30 is simply more accurate and more reliable than most anything else out there.


C4[/QUOTE]

That was an interesting statement. Any plan's on HK's part to release a striker fired P30? Most accutate coupled with most reliable is an attention getter.

brickboy240
09-16-13, 16:53
The PPQ I borrowed was also amazingly accurate.

As accurate as any USP that I have borrowed.

-brickboy240

Gutshot John
09-16-13, 17:26
The PPQ I borrowed was also amazingly accurate.

As accurate as any USP that I have borrowed.

-brickboy240

Interestingly, I've never seen a USP win a major title either.

PPQs are very accurate and they do have one of the better triggers, but the felt recoil and muzzle flip are far more pronounced making it far less shootable than either a Glock or M&P, but it's not the first shot that makes the gun "shootable" its the subsequent shots of the string 2, 3, 4, or 5 rounds.

In terms of pure accuracy, I still give the edge to either German Sigs or CZ. My bone stock P-07 shoots a nice little clover leaf at 25 yards (and IMO has the nicest DA/SA trigger made). That said I wouldn't put either in the same category as either Glock or M&P.

If the made a striker fired P30, they would also have to lower the bore axis in order to make it a game changer, otherwise you're not talking any real difference.

I shoot striker fired guns, but the "flaws" of the DA/SA are way overstated. There are a lot of really nice DA/SA guns, HK just isn't one of them.

YVK
09-16-13, 17:40
My bone stock P-07 shoots a nice little clover leaf at 25 yards (and IMO has the nicest DA/SA trigger made). That said I wouldn't put either in the same category as either Glock or M&P.
.

Why not? If we use competition success as a criterion, we should move to Tanfoglios, Berettas and CZS. They are widely successful in USPSA Production div, and USPSA is generally considered to have a deeper talent pool than IDPA.

Gutshot John
09-16-13, 17:45
Why not? If we use competition success as a criterion, we should move to Tanfoglios, Berettas and CZS. They are widely successful in USPSA Production div, and USPSA is generally considered to have a deeper talent pool than IDPA.

You're absolutely right.

Let me rephrase. I wouldn't put MY CZ in the same category.

Tanfoglios/CZ perform admirably once tuned (my coach and smith calls the EAA "A Ferrari in the rough") but I was speaking of the stock versions.

C4IGrant
09-16-13, 21:03
Sure, and they still outnumber the HK/Walther "production" guns.

Of course they do! People don't want a 3.95" barrel or 15rd mags for limited or even production competition. That is why you don't see anything from HK or Walther.



Uhm, I think you're proving my point. According to the IDPA numbers most were indeed 34/35s but the remaining 10% (of total guns) were other Glocks. That's still more than all the HKs/Walthers put together by several times.

Actually, you have it back wards. You are proving mine. People want LONG SLIDES, 17rd + mags and cheap guns when playing gun games. This automatically rules out HK and Walther.


But again you're talking about Glocks/M&Ps, two guns that have gotten a disproportionate amount of negative forum attention for reliability/accuracy problems, are still used WAY more often than either the HK or PPQ...many, many times over.

Well that is because they deserve it. Both S&W and Glock have screwed the pooch over the last couple of years. S&W has been putting money into their M&P, changed the twist rate and is paying more attention to slide to barrel fit. Can they hold their own with an HK or Walther in the accuracy department? Nope.




Not really buying that at all. I personally saw Sevigny clean a rack in under 2.5 seconds with a bone stock G21 at the "Street Gun" Nationals.

Pointless how?

Very few people are to Dave's skill level. They want longer slides and the ability to modify mags so they can get 20+ rounds in the gun.


Lots of competitions use stock/production guns. Surely if they were qualitatively better at least someone would be using them.

Again, length of slide, 17rd mags (or more), cost, sight options, etc.




Sure against most people, which you've already conceded shoot less than a few hundred rounds in a month, that doesn't surprise me.

A few hundred rounds is pretty much the norm these days (especially with the rarity and cost of ammo).


Put him up against serious competitors who shoot AT LEAST that in a day, and then you'll have a valid comparison. Until then apples and oranges.

My guess is that if we gave him the same amount of ammo to shoot per day, he would hold his own. It is always the Indian.




A nice trigger is one factor of shootability, the ability to quickly follow-up is very much a factor of bore axis, striker fired guns will always have that advantage...assuming they bother to lower it which the PPQ doesn't.

HK triggers are horrible. Them LEM is an improvement, but it's hard not to improve on horrible.

Not horrible. The V1 is excellent IMHO. Once the V4 comes out we might have an entirely different animal on our hands.


If HKs and PPQs offered a real shooting advantage, they would be used a lot more (let alone by someone serious) in competition.

That they aren't used, let alone place, in competition is what I call a big fat hairy clue.

First, competition shooting (much like which gun PD's and SO's buy) matters for absolutely zero. Very few people actually participate in gun games. What matters more is the gun that is chosen by people that go into harms way (Military). They are the SIG 226, Beretta 92A1, HK45C, Glock 19 and Glock 22. Three of these five guns are DA/SA. Interesting.

If I remember correctly, Glock is the number one sold pistol in the world. Number two and three (can't remember the order) is the HK USP and CZ 75.


C4

C4IGrant
09-16-13, 21:13
That was an interesting statement. Any plan's on HK's part to release a striker fired P30? Most accutate coupled with most reliable is an attention getter.

They are working on it I am told. When it will appear is anyones guess.


C4

C4IGrant
09-16-13, 21:16
Interestingly, I've never seen a USP win a major title either.

PPQs are very accurate and they do have one of the better triggers, but the felt recoil and muzzle flip are far more pronounced making it far less shootable than either a Glock or M&P, but it's not the first shot that makes the gun "shootable" its the subsequent shots of the string 2, 3, 4, or 5 rounds.


Out of curiosity, what was splits between the PPQ you owned and a Glock or M&P?



C4

Gutshot John
09-16-13, 21:56
Of course they do! People don't want a 3.95" barrel or 15rd mags for limited or even production competition. That is why you don't see anything from HK or Walther.

Nope. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7020

G21SF is no longer than an HK45. Glock 19 is no longer than a Walther.

I see more than a few G19s in competition. P30s/PPQs...not so much.


Actually, you have it back wards. You are proving mine. People want LONG SLIDES, 17rd + mags and cheap guns when playing gun games. This automatically rules out HK and Walther.

HK doesn't make a P30L? Funny I thought they did.

But you're making my case again...What rules out HK/Walther is that they put the user at a disadvantage so they don't get used. Well no kidding.


Well that is because they deserve it. Both S&W and Glock have screwed the pooch over the last couple of years. S&W has been putting money into their M&P, changed the twist rate and is paying more attention to slide to barrel fit. Can they hold their own with an HK or Walther in the accuracy department? Nope.

And no, it's not just about accuracy, it's about both speed AND accuracy. Pure mechanical accuracy doesn't win you matches. Glock/M&Ps win because they cut the baby in half way better than HK AND Walther.


Very few people are to Dave's skill level. They want longer slides and the ability to modify mags so they can get 20+ rounds in the gun.

Again, you're proving my point. If the HK/Walther was competitive, and people wanted 20+ round magazines for those guns, they would make 20+ round magazines for those guns. That they don't is another big fat hairy clue.

And how many people at Dave's skill level shoot HKs/Walther and win? No one that I can think of.


Again, length of slide, 17rd mags (or more), cost, sight options, etc.

See above.


A few hundred rounds is pretty much the norm these days (especially with the rarity and cost of ammo).

You missed the point. Competitive shooters don't buy their own ammo. If top flight competitors shot these guns, they would get ammo for them from their sponsors.


My guess is that if we gave him the same amount of ammo to shoot per day, he would hold his own. It is always the Indian.

All other things being equal, a better gun is a better gun. That the "Indian" prefers a Glock/M&P over a HK/Walther should be telling.


Not horrible. The V1 is excellent IMHO. Once the V4 comes out we might have an entirely different animal on our hands.

We'll have to agree to disagree, the trigger is one of the more consistent complaints of the new generation of HK. My $400 CZ has a way better trigger than every broken in HKv1 I've ever shot


First, competition shooting (much like which gun PD's and SO's buy) matters for absolutely zero. Very few people actually participate in gun games. What matters more is the gun that is chosen by people that go into harms way (Military). They are the SIG 226, Beretta 92A1, HK45C, Glock 19 and Glock 22. Three of these five guns are DA/SA. Interesting.

Dude that's plain funny. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that excuse. :rolleyes: Not buying it.

Likewise top tier units never use competition shooters to teach them how to shoot. (Jerry Barnhart?) so I don't get the statement that it "matters for absolutely zero."

Very, very few (military) guys get to choose their own pistol. You know it, I know it. Those that carry the Sig/Beretta aren't carrying because they like them better, they're carrying them because someone said "here's your pistol." Of those that do, the vast majority that I'm aware of go with Glock. So by your own standard your argument falls apart.

Competition matters because it gives a QUANTIFIABLE measure of what gear/techniques will work and will not work. The notion that a gun (or shooter) that performs poorly in competition, is suddenly going to become an super fast and accurate in combat is deeply, deeply flawed.

As for those who do...I've never denigrated the DA/SA action so I'm not sure where that came from. That said the military chooses DA/SA guns for reasons that have little if anything to do with what is the better gun.


If I remember correctly, Glock is the number one sold pistol in the world. Number two and three (can't remember the order) is the HK USP and CZ 75.

So?

Gutshot John
09-16-13, 22:08
Out of curiosity, what was splits between the PPQ you owned and a Glock or M&P?
C4

Splits? What do splits prove? Squeezing the trigger fast wasn't my problem. Squeezing the trigger fast while getting good hits was the problem.

I can shoot a PPQ as fast as an M&P, but as I recall only half as well. The M&P is way easier to control.

It's not just speed, it's not just accuracy. It's both.

SPQR476
09-16-13, 22:10
I'm not a moderator and all, but this thread is officially getting way off track.

AND, now I'm gonna have to buy a P30 and use it for 3-Gun. :jester:

Gutshot John
09-16-13, 22:18
AND, now I'm gonna have to buy a P30 and use it for 3-Gun. :jester:

Dude, I double-dog dare you. :)

All kidding aside (and with complete sincerity) if you do, I'd be very curious to know the results.

My apologies for getting this off-track. I'll stop.

Doc Safari
09-16-13, 22:27
This could be true, but people that know the history of Glock would probably argue differently.

The Glock pistol came together by a group of people that really didn't know much about engineering pistols. They had a working model very quickly (dumb luck if you will). The reason we bring this up is because Glock really does not have the engineering knowledge like other pistol manufacturers do. More on this later.

The Glock fails most all of the tests that we use to determine if a 1911 is built properly. I know people will argue that these function tests don't apply, but when you start seeing Glock's fail the way they do, the pieces start to fall together.

The Glock has always had an erratic ejection pattern. The main cause of this is because the magazine follower or round below the one being fired help to push out the spent case. The extractor is angled so that the case can move up and down in the breech face (where other guns grab the case straight on and use a pocket milled into the breech face to hold it in the same spot every time). The mag spring tension varies greatly between the first 5rds and the last 5. This is why the ejection pattern changes considerably (and why mag spring PM's are so important to the reliability of this weapon).

For a long, long time, these weaknesses never really came to a head (until the GEN 4). Glock introduced the dual spring system and changed how they made their extractors. They then put this new extractor into their GEN 3 guns (thusly affecting it as well). This put a spot light on the some of the design flaws of the gun (that Glock had gotten away with IMHO).

Apex Tactical did a lot of engineering research on the Glock problem and pretty much came to the conclusion that the Glock problem is a multifaceted one. To TRULY make a Glock reliable (over thousands of rounds), you must change the extractor grab angle (which they did) AND lower the ejection port window.

For the record, I know that some Glock's will work right out of the box (with no mods done to it). I am almost of the opinion that this is more of an anomaly than a standard. YMMV.

Interesting side note, Mr. Glock took his design to HK and they passed on it. Not sure why, but they did. Clue? Not sure.
IMHO, Glock would be WISE to hire some HK engineers to work on their problems (as I don't believe they have the knowledge base to do it).

All of this is my opinion based on being a certified armorer, fixing problem Glock's, talking to engineers and firearms instructors and my seven personally owned Glock's. YMMV.




C4

Wow.

I'm not disputing your experience, but it sounds like you're saying Glock was just simply lucky all those years that people said the gun was nearly infallible (Gen 1 through mid Gen 3 IIRC).

I know there is a thread on this forum where people are of the opinion that the problems started with late Gen 3 pistols with the new "dipped" extractor. I remember it because I bought a Glock 17 in 2009 with the older "non-dipped" extractor that basically went into my prepper stash after reading how Glock's quality went to shit with the later guns. I have another Glock 17 made in 2010 that originally had the dipped extractor. Yes, it had erratic ejection but a Lone Wolf extractor fixed it and it has ejected fine for thousands of rounds.

The reason I repeat all this is to ask a question by way of reminder: weren't Glocks more or less GTG up until early 2011 or thereabouts, and aren't knowlegeable people of the opinion that Glock broke the nines to fix the forties with the advent of late Gen 3 and the Gen 4 pistols?

Hmac
09-16-13, 22:56
I'll stop.

Heh. :)

DreadPirateMoyer
09-16-13, 23:14
Really sick of all this competition crap dominating this thread and any thread discussing Glocks, as if that's all that matters. Fact is, post-2010 Glocks are disproportionately unreliable; this is not a series of isolated incidences or internet hype, and people who try to discount these very valid criticisms are doing themselves and the community a huge disservice. I've owned 5 post-2010 Gen 3 Glocks (all 17s and 19s), and every single one gave me BTF and stovepipe problems within 3,000 rounds. Same for tons of other people. It's not a rumor anymore, guys.

At this point, I couldn't give a rat's ass what people use to win competitions. Post-2010 Glocks are consistently shitting the bed more than most other guns on the market, and that's all I care about. There is way more to take into account when choosing a defensive firearm than how they perform in competition...like, you know, if you can trust them to work properly when your life is on the line. I can't trust Glocks to do that at this point, and neither should anyone. I'm at the point where I think people who deny this point, or whine non-stop about how striker-fired Glocks and M&Ps do well in competition and therefore are better than DA/SA guns, are completely deluding themselves in the name of fanboyism and are completely unable to admit the firearm they've heavily invested themselves into is turning into an unreliable QA/QC nightmare.

I used to own nothing but Glocks. I've since converted to HK and Beretta, and will consider picking up some FNs as well in time. They're not as ubiquitous as Glocks, but when it comes down to it, I know with proper maintenance, these firearms will work when I need them to. Glocks? Can't say the same, just as the OP found out.

Something is rotten in Austria/Smyrna. The sooner people admit that to themselves, the better.

mrvip27
09-17-13, 01:06
They are working on it I am told. When it will appear is anyones guess.


C4

Omg yes. Lol.

STAFF
09-17-13, 09:13
This thread has nothing to do with competition shooting or other pistols.

Stick to the topic.


OP, if you have an update on your gun, please contact one of the mods or staff so they can open it back up for you to post an update.