View Full Version : Has Duty pistol quality gone backwards?
Issues, issues. We all here about issue after issue with brand x and brand y. It used to be one could buy a Glock and run it out of the box and never have an issue. While I don't believe everything I read, there is way too much out there to support the issued Glock has been having with extraction / ejection. Sure, buy a few parts and it is an easy fix, but should this be necessary?
Enter the M&P, the American made answer to the Glock...finally. Too bad the accuracy is pure garbage. One can support APEX or Salient, spend 400-500 bucks and make it decent, but really?
Sig = get over the double action thing, went out with disco, grunge at the latest!
XD = I just threw up as I wrote that
PPQ= great pistol, but not going to seize the market like Glock for logistics. If you train/complete a lot, you will need logistics
FNH FNS = I thought this thing had potential, what happened to it? FNH being such a military contract based company let that thing flounder.
HK = Price, ridiculous, as with all HK products. I have thought of biting the bullet and getting a P30, but for THAT price, it had better be perfect. Magazines are crazy expensive and one can't just find them anywhere. Again, when are they going to get away from a hammer? I know, the light LEM trigger.....got it, still has a hammer.
I know, I am seeking the perfect pistol. I have a great SA MC Operator with no issues; however, 1911s are expensive and require expensive maintenance. I won't let just any chimp work on it. Luckily, I have a close friend to keep it tuned and rolling. But the 1911 is not the modern answer to a service pistol. I don't expect the pistol that is designed for my hand and has a 1911-like trigger. What happened to Glock and what will be the answer to the next great service pistol? Will Glock return to its former glory? Will someone else step up?
Not to be a dick but you say it yourself that you are looking for the perfect pistol and can not find it. Sad fact is that I don't think there is anything out there that is completely perfect for anyone and especially not everyone and anyone pushing one or the other I tend to at best find them to be a fan boy and at worst a total idiot who believes the ads that the companies put out. Trust me I deal with enough locals who think Glocks are the end all be all but get pissed when I point out flaws in their wunder pistol. Anyway, there are going to be pros and cons to everything, personally love the P30 and if I had the money the price doesn't bother me, but that is me. I also like DA/SA pistols even though they aren't in vogue I tend to prefer them given the option. Call me weird. Its all about give and take, what features you need, what issues you are willing to deal with. Obviously we'd all love a gun that was super reliable, perfect ergos, recoil of a .22lr, stopping power of a 10mm, 3 inch groups at 100 meters, 16 ounces loaded with a 50 round mag, fit in the palm of your hand, and the cost of a Hi-point, but that doesn't exist. Got to make due with what is out there. If a 1911 platform ends up being the platform you prefer, even with the increased maintenance who is to say you are wrong for running it?
End of my rant. Time for bed. Have a good night. And hope you find what you are looking for.
There is no such thing as a perfect pistol. Pistols are mass produced and the more you manufacture, the greater the number of problems you are going to hear about.
I think that the quality of the pistols is better now than it was 30 years ago. Back then, we were kept in the dark about issues with our Brand Z service pistols. When information was disseminated, it took weeks or even months for the rank and file to find out.
If someone, anyone, has a problem with a pistol in this day and age, you will read about it on the same day on the internet. If 10 people have an issue with their pistol, the internet makes it seem like 10,000 people are having problems.
No pistol is perfect, but I believe that a large number of them are much more reliable than in years past.
Thanks for the responses Gents. I am with you both completely on the issue.
The "perfection" I think we all seek is a never-ending quest. We must all come up with our own list of necessities in a pistol and try to find what comes closest to filling that list. For me, reliability, accuracy, and durability come first. Kain, I am on the edge of buying an HK product (my first, however I have shot many before). My aversion to double action is about to be overwhelmed by the HK quality (darn those Germans and their excellent engineering!).
I also agree many things get blown WAY out of proportion and that the availability of information has made this commonplace. Anyone with an internet connection can throw out a "this happened to me" impromptu review of a product. As for pistols like Glock, given the insane number that are out there, they are bound to have some issues. This may seem like more issues than others sometimes, but given the number of Glocks being used at this moment, the negatives are negligible at best.
Good call on the HK's..I have a P-2000 P-30 and recently bought a HK45c tactical.. The prices for mags for the 9mm pistols aren't as bad as you think, I bought 5 from HKUSA, for $33 apiece,for my P-30. Which in reality, isn't that bad.. What I've found, is if you need mags or parts for a HK, call HKUSA first, They're usually cheaper than say, Hk parts net.. Anyway, I really think you'll enjoy the HK's. Right now, they're probably one of the few pistols available that will work right out of the box..
Pistols are now produced like any other market commodity. No outside QC inspection (and a contract customer holding the manufacturer responsible) and quality goes into the toilet.
If you could draw one out of the box real military M1911A1, Browning Highpower, Gen 1 and 2 Glock 17, a late 80s- mid 90s Sig 226, or (all metal) Beretta 92 it will be pretty functional. Not perfect, but good enough for real reindeer games (where the reindeer shoot back).
KentuckyWindage
09-01-13, 08:53
Good call on the HK's..I have a P-2000 P-30 and recently bought a HK45c tactical.. The prices for mags for the 9mm pistols aren't as bad as you think, I bought 5 from HKUSA, for $33 apiece,for my P-30. Which in reality, isn't that bad.. What I've found, is if you need mags or parts for a HK, call HKUSA first, They're usually cheaper than say, Hk parts net.. Anyway, I really think you'll enjoy the HK's. Right now, they're probably one of the few pistols available that will work right out of the box..
I agree with this, when I was die hard glock fan boy I dismissed all the btf issues like others. I also hated hk with a passion. I have had multiple issues with my new glock 19 gen 3 & 4 and glock 17 gen 4. I was tried of it and went looking else where. I have unloaded all my glocks after purchasing a p30 and hk45. Mags are available and useally 36-39 each at my local gunshops. Took about two to three range trips to adapt to the v1 light lem triggers. So far it has been the best decision I have made in a long time, now does anyone know where there is a p30l v1 or v2 for sale?
Five_Point_Five_Six
09-01-13, 09:46
Has Duty pistol quality gone backwards?
Yes, in a lot of ways I think it has. Demand is high, and manufacturers are trying to pump them out as fast as they can to keep up. Quality suffers. A while back when I worked in a gun store, Ruger was trying real hard to sell 2 million guns that year in order to donate 2 million dollars to the NRA. Noble quest if there ever was one, but their quality suffered as a result. (I know Ruger is pretty much an across the board Fudd company, but they're just the example I have to go on.) We sent more Rugers back for repair during my employ there than Hi Point and Taurus combined. And we sold a lot of Hi Points and Taurus'.
I drank the HK haterade too as a young Glock fanboy until I actually had some real hands on experience with them vs what I read on teh internetz.
Now I'm real close to having enough in my piggy bank to buy my first. The PPQ is a winner in my book too, I just can't shake the HK bug.
HK might hate us because we suck, but they're still producing go-to-war pistols right outta the box.
I agree with this, when I was die hard glock fan boy I dismissed all the btf issues like others. I also hated hk with a passion. I have had multiple issues with my new glock 19 gen 3 & 4 and glock 17 gen 4. I was tried of it and went looking else where. I have unloaded all my glocks after purchasing a p30 and hk45. Mags are available and useally 36-39 each at my local gunshops. Took about two to three range trips to adapt to the v1 light lem triggers. So far it has been the best decision I have made in a long time, now does anyone know where there is a p30l v1 or v2 for sale?
P-30l v1? Yeah, I know where there's some at.. check G&R tactical.. Grant has them in stock with NS.. Great price too!!
KentuckyWindage
09-01-13, 10:03
P-30l v1? Yeah, I know where there's some at.. check G&R tactical.. Grant has them in stock with NS.. Great price too!!
Thank you!!
Plumber237
09-01-13, 10:48
HK might hate us because we suck, but they're still producing go-to-war pistols right outta the box.
Stick with their current model offerings though, at least with 9 mil. I bought a new USP 9 about a year ago and it had the worst ejection I've ever seen in a pistol. Every direction around the clock and FTE's up the ass, very disappointing considering it's an $800 gun.
Five_Point_Five_Six
09-01-13, 11:18
Stick with their current model offerings though, at least with 9 mil. I bought a new USP 9 about a year ago and it had the worst ejection I've ever seen in a pistol. Every direction around the clock and FTE's up the ass, very disappointing considering it's an $800 gun.
That sucks, but an example of one is never a good way to judge a manufacturer or model.
thopkins22
09-01-13, 11:23
Generally I think this is like saying that new music sucks, or that the current generation won't be able to accomplish anything. By that I mean things are different, and yet the same...and very rarely is anything as bad as we like to believe.
Glocks were never perfect...type 3 anyone? None of those pistols were. We just learned how to deal with them or address them in manufacturing, and we drove on...and eventually glazed over them to decide that new problems are much worse.
Plumber237
09-01-13, 11:50
That sucks, but an example of one is never a good way to judge a manufacturer or model.
Absolutely true, I bought it because my work issued gun is a USP 40, but I'm a 9 mil fan. Since I hadn't found a single negative review of USP 9's anywhere I figured it was a good idea (same trigger/platform) and a safe bet. Guess I just lucked out with a problematic one...I took it as a sign to stick with my Glock 9's that worked.
Pistols are now produced like any other market commodity. No outside QC inspection (and a contract customer holding the manufacturer responsible) and quality goes into the toilet.
If you could draw one out of the box real military M1911A1, Browning Highpower, Gen 1 and 2 Glock 17, a late 80s- mid 90s Sig 226, or (all metal) Beretta 92 it will be pretty functional. Not perfect, but good enough for real reindeer games (where the reindeer shoot back).
I agree with this. I have 3 2nd Gen G19's,a 2nd Gen G17, and an early production 3rd gen G17 with the two pin frame. I bought a PPQ and like it a lot but one of the 17's is what I strap on. I've had no issues in 20 years or so with any of these Glocks,and that's what I'll stick with. Too old to change anyway.
I think there may be a dip in quality, but the proliferation of firearm specific internet forums has created a platform for some issues to take on a "life of their own." I don't think anyone is denying that there are proverbial ghosts in the machine, especially regarding late model glocks and the FTE pox that has affected a troubling percentage of newer 9mm and 45acp guns. But in past eras, there was no easy way for average gun owners to compare and contrast issues in real-time. The odd thing is that glock still delivers many pistols that inexplicably function as they always have. I have a few new gen three guns that run just like my early 2000's 19 does, that is... like a raped ape.
The true test, buy a pistol in a box, new! Take it out, load mags, shoot magazine after magazine, 100 rounds, 200, 3 or 4 hundred.
Clean and check.
One magazine of carry ammo! Clean, load, holster.
Deal with problems, if you find any.
My first Glock19/4th Gen. Crap, registered letter to Gaston! It was fixed (gift of 6 G17 mags, thank you!) use them in IDPA matches, G19 ones pinch hand on rapid mag. changes.
G19 3rd gen, never a problem. Carry the Gen4, great, as is, out of the box, no big, bigger grip bits. But you need to add bits, to any carry pistol! Mainly Night sights.
Anyone else think it could be the quality of currently manufactured ammo?
XD = I just threw up as I wrote that
I'm confused as to why people love to bash the XD line? I get the grip safety issue, but has one ever failed you?
I have owned Glocks, XD's, and M&P's.
the XD line has never failed to eject for me, always been accurate, never jammed up once for me(multiple XDs in fact), which I can also say about the m&p.
I've had Constance issues with Glocks, stove piping(gen4), getting hit between the eyes dead center with brass when ejecting(also gen 4). Using Winchester white box and Ranger T ammo.
I've been eyeing a Gen 3 19 BNIB at my LGS, but still I've never once had any issues with my 6 XDs I've owned.
So please enlighten me as to why you almost 'threw up'
(Not trying to be rude)
I'm confused as to why people love to bash the XD line? I get the grip safety issue, but has one ever failed you?
I have owned Glocks, XD's, and M&P's.
the XD line has never failed to eject for me, always been accurate, never jammed up once for me(multiple XDs in fact), which I can also say about the m&p.
I've had Constance issues with Glocks, stove piping(gen4), getting hit between the eyes dead center with brass when ejecting(also gen 4). Using Winchester white box and Ranger T ammo.
I've been eyeing a Gen 3 19 BNIB at my LGS, but still I've never once had any issues with my 6 XDs I've owned.
So please enlighten me as to why you almost 'threw up'
(Not trying to be rude)
I would like to be enlightened as well. My XD9SC and XDM 45 Compact have been accurate and flawless and have the best ergonomics for me.
You already have a 1911 that you like.
Maintenance really is not expensive once you get it running right. An extractor and a plunger tube every now and then.
You can buy a lot of ammo mags and keep that 1911 going with the amount you'd spend getting set up with an H&K. And you'd still have a nice trigger!
High Tower
09-01-13, 20:28
Regarding XD issues, I have had several samples give me no end of problems with feeding issues. The grip angle is all wrong for me and I find the need to depress the grip safety just to work the slide intensely annoying. While a gun is a tool, I still like to enjoy and appreciate the ones I pay for.
If you feel that the xd is good enough for you, rock on. I'd rather double down on an HK and not worry about the quirks of other lines.
PatrioticDisorder
09-01-13, 20:46
[QUOTE=ericl;1735550Enter the M&P, the American made answer to the Glock...finally. Too bad the accuracy is pure garbage. One can support APEX or Salient, spend 400-500 bucks and make it decent, but really?[/QUOTE]
Only the full size 9mms had accuracy issues that has been fixed.
vicious_cb
09-01-13, 22:47
I would like to be enlightened as well. My XD9SC and XDM 45 Compact have been accurate and flawless and have the best ergonomics for me.
There are enough horror stories on this forum alone to make me never want to touch an XD.
I would like to be enlightened as well. My XD9SC and XDM 45 Compact have been accurate and flawless and have the best ergonomics for me.
A friend of mine won Bianchi production class with an xdm that only had a trigger job done it. And to win Bianchi he shot it a lot getting ready. I own the same model but have not shot it much.
There may not be any perfect solution, but there are a lot of great options. Once I came to terms with that, things got simple. I have 3 handguns, none of which have failed for me. They aren't 'perfect', but they have functioned perfectly, and I don't have to fight them to be accurate or quick. That's all I'm worried about.
I agree that recently duty pistol quality has slipped in some cases.
Am I the only one who remembers the 1975-1985 period? Bangor Punta era S&W revolvers that would skip chambers, cylinder timing really off. 1911 Colts where you would spend 1-2x pistol cost on making it suitable for duty.
In 1990 I went from 1911 to GL21s. I was tired of gunsmithing. My times and accuracy were the same with the GL21 as with the 1911 and the several I had proved reliable. 1998 went to GL30s. 2009 or so started shooting GL19s, GL17s. Since 1990 my training schedule has been 10,000+ rounds a year. I have had less trouble with Glocks than anything I had used before.
Doc GKR and others have said the Gen4 GL21 is good to go, I believe them but have not shot mine more than a few hundred rounds so I do not have enough data.
Currently I trust my proven pre problem era Glocks which have been shot a bunch. I trust my HK45 and HK P30 LEM which I have only a few thousand rounds through.
Currently buying a new pistol, I feel HKP30 9mm LEM and HK45 LEM are likely to be the most reliable and are very accurate. I used to feel Glock was the answer to this question. My Glocks are reliable but that does not tell us anything about a new one.
Toronto PD had a 100 lot of S&W Revolvers delivered, Mod 64s? some would not work at all, 6 or 7? But a lot more had faults.
Lucky they were tested before being issued.
Kain, I am on the edge of buying an HK product (my first, however I have shot many before). My aversion to double action is about to be overwhelmed by the HK quality (darn those Germans and their excellent engineering!).
The HK USP V1, P30S, P30LS have external safety/decocker that will allow you to carry them in cocked & locked...
You already have a 1911 that you like.
Maintenance really is not expensive once you get it running right. An extractor and a plunger tube every now and then.
You can buy a lot of ammo mags and keep that 1911 going with the amount you'd spend getting set up with an H&K. And you'd still have a nice trigger!
Yep. And in over 30 years with 1911s my parts replacement experience has been less than that. What's required to have a successful 1911 have been way overblown.
HK might hate us because we suck, but they're still producing go-to-war pistols right outta the box.Yup.
Haters always gonna hate.
PatrioticDisorder
09-02-13, 18:16
Yup.
Haters always gonna hate.
If only H&K they'd start making some polymer framed striker fired pistols and maybe entire the single stack game to compete with the Shield, XDS, PPS, etc... I'm pretty sure there would be many converts from Glock & M&P in particular if they were to do this, but they won't, because we suck and they hate us. :angry:
Five_Point_Five_Six
09-02-13, 18:56
If only H&K they'd start making some polymer framed striker fired pistols and maybe entire the single stack game to compete with the Shield, XDS, PPS, etc... I'm pretty sure there would be many converts from Glock & M&P in particular if they were to do this, but they won't, because we suck and they hate us. :angry:
I for one, have no desire to own, shoot or carry a gun that small. I like to carry big guns that hold a lot of rounds that I'm able to shoot well.
PatrioticDisorder
09-02-13, 18:59
I for one, have no desire to own, shoot or carry a gun that small. I like to carry big guns that hold a lot of rounds that I'm able to shoot well.
I kinda share your philosophy, but I live in south Florida where I must conceal and obviously very HOT and humid weather, so concealing a big gun can be a challenge.... But I digress, it is not me but the market that has voted single stack thin carry guns to be in demand.
DanjojoUSMC
09-02-13, 19:24
A single stack HK would sell well. Just hope people hesitate a little more on the hot, new, tiny, slender and consider what is most important for a firearm. They might really need to use one someday and it's hard to get sub-compact service caliber pistols right. The way most are lego'd with outsourced parts and shoved out the door it's a bad recipe.
I am a big hammer-fired DA/SA fan my self - like the advantages and I don't pick based off of what is easiest for non-gun folks :eek:
Many pick based off of looks, $50 rebates, bandwagons, etc. instead of picking one as if you are picking out a parachute (i.e. a life or death matter) Encourages all the sloppy, half-baked designs to flow forth.
Cylinder Head
09-02-13, 20:12
Love DA/SA and I was raised on crappy HK triggers. I will never sell my HK45 and P30L. I plan on picking up an HK45C ASAP.
A co-worker of mine was railing on our new service pistol and how much more reliable his Model 39 was than the new pistol. I asked how many failures he had with the new service pistol in the past 10 years that required parts replacement and he said none. I asked how many parts required replacement with his Model 39 in ten years and he rattled off several accounts where he had to have an armorer get his pistol up and running.
In my humble opinion, the new pistols are ten times better than they were back in the 1970's. You will have one hell of a time getting a gray haired old fart to admit that though.
A lot of guys these days are simply too young to recall when the early smith 39/59 series was the only choice in semi auto service pistols. I feel old I guess but it was 't really that long ago finding an auto that would run any hp out of the box was rather rare. While it is always a good idea to run a gun with your chosen duty load I also feel it is much more likely to have a trustworthy set up out of the gate now than it ever was. Glock sig hk smith beretta. In military service ( my experience) it would not be unusual to be issued a pistol to deploy without shooting it at all or maybe just a mag or two. The modern service pistols are much more likely to work than in years past. There is a reason revolvers were the Police mainstay I. This country just 25 years ago. ( and they were not always perfect either)
I hate all plastic guns.....The 5906 Smith & Wesson gets my vote.
They are the most accurate/ reliable semi auto pistols I have ever owned.
S & W should be ashamed to even be makeing plastic guns now..
The advent of polymer materials, had to happen, it is a natural evolution (IMHO) just as durable and half the weight.
My water pipes deteriated, had to be replaced, the whole house (a small one!) to do that in copper! Hardly. PVC was the order of the day.
A service pistol, tends to be viewed from the point of view, as our purchases should be also, to fit the job, durable, and go bang, each time the trigger is pressed.
In this day and age of insurance, in the form of standard magazine capacity being 15 and up, polymer materials help in cutting down the overall weight.
My Glock 19s fulfill those parameter's. After replacing those cheap crappy plastic sights!
brickboy240
09-03-13, 11:28
So you think d/a-s/a went out with disco....but would consider an HK P-30?
How does that make sense?
-brickboy240
Modern service pistols, like modern automobiles have their fair share of issues. But compared to their older ancestors newer weapons like newer automobiles are in general more reliable.
No intent to offend those that still prefer a true DA pistol (DA/SA). I just prefer either a single action (ala 1911) or a DAO/striker fire (something with a consistent trigger pull). I do like the HK offerings; however, it would be a variant which could be carried cocked and locked, or a DAO type of configuration. This is not due to ease of training, just simple efficiency. If a DA gun is your thing, great. My opinion (a humble one at that) supports one trigger pull in a defensive handgun.
No intent to offend those that still prefer a true DA pistol (DA/SA). I just prefer either a single action (ala 1911) or a DAO/striker fire (something with a consistent trigger pull). I do like the HK offerings; however, it would be a variant which could be carried cocked and locked, or a DAO type of configuration. This is not due to ease of training, just simple efficiency. If a DA gun is your thing, great. My opinion (a humble one at that) supports one trigger pull in a defensive handgun.
The average pistol shot, misses under stress with the first, 12lb pull! Not that good with the second!
The most important reason for accuracy, in pistol shooting, is the trigger, bull's-eye shooting, fighting with a pistol, the trigger is paramount!
I like about a 4lb weight, very little over travel, and a fraction of reset movement, like my Glock 19s.
A very good, cheap practice, draw from concealment, punch the pistol out, eye level, click! Dry fire, over and over! Watch the sights, see where they were at the click.
Live fire the same, but bang/bang/bang, over and over.
Look at the distances gun fights happen at? Those are the distances you do most of your practice at.
Jeff Cooper said double action was a perfect solution, to a non existent problem! I agree. Except in S&W Double action revolvers, all those are fired only in double action.
Five_Point_Five_Six
09-03-13, 18:54
I hate all plastic guns.....The 5906 Smith & Wesson gets my vote.
They are the most accurate/ reliable semi auto pistols I have ever owned.
S & W should be ashamed to even be makeing plastic guns now..
If you'd like to sit around waxing nostalgic about the "good ole' days" when guns were all steel and weighed 6lbs, go for it. The future of modern service/defensive pistols lie with polymer frames for the most part, and have for many years.
The average pistol shot, misses under stress with the first, 12lb pull! Not that good with the second!
The most important reason for accuracy, in pistol shooting, is the trigger, bull's-eye shooting, fighting with a pistol, the trigger is paramount!
I like about a 4lb weight, very little over travel, and a fraction of reset movement, like my Glock 19s.
A very good, cheap practice, draw from concealment, punch the pistol out, eye level, click! Dry fire, over and over! Watch the sights, see where they were at the click.
Live fire the same, but bang/bang/bang, over and over.
Look at the distances gun fights happen at? Those are the distances you do most of your practice at.
Jeff Cooper said double action was a perfect solution, to a non existent problem! I agree. Except in S&W Double action revolvers, all those are fired only in double action.
Some of us actually shoot the 8lb/4.5lb DA/SA Beretta's well. A lack of trigger control is very apparent when shooters have trouble with revolvers and DA/SA pistols. Develop skills or buy a striker gun.
Well said................
As my Dad used to say, to each his own.
Carrying a pistol every day, in the Beautiful weather of Florida, my 21 Oz Glock 19, is doable. We all know that it is most unlikely that we will be in a pistol activity, but the reality of carrying a pistol is not to wish for a gun fight, no more than carrying the car insurance slip, is a wish for an accident.
I am even a little more paranoid than most, as I carry a spare Glock 17 magazine! (I also have a spare tire!) a flash light, with a rechargeable battery (yes spare ones of those as well) and a Benchmade folding knife. The Surefire light is polymer as well!
The 41 oz loaded weight of a Beretta 92, not so much.
Five_Point_Five_Six
09-04-13, 07:36
As my Dad used to say, to each his own.
Carrying a pistol every day, in the Beautiful weather of Florida, my 21 Oz Glock 19, is doable.
Unless you carry your Glock 19 unloaded, it's more like 30 Oz.
walkin' trails
09-04-13, 07:44
I bought a Gen I 17 in 1987 and a G19 in 92, and carried them both on the SW Border until early 1996. They would occasionally get packed full of dust or soaked in sea water, and the only problem I really ever experienced was a broken trigger spring on the 17. I also shot them in local competetion. While Glocks weren't perfect, they were far more reliable than the mire traditional 9mm wonder guns and required less maintenance than a quality 1911 of the time. Once in a while a bad one would slip out, but those were few and far between. The Sig P226 or 220 were the only clear alternative to a Glock in terms if reliability. I have since carried a lot of Glocks in 4O and 45, and never had any major problems other than a broken trigger pin or slide lock spring. My experience with H&K is pretty limited. I suspect the real problem all the mire mainstream competetors are having is that they are cranking out pistols at a rapid pace to keep up with the demand. I bought two new pistols this summer; an M&P 9 FS and a G26 Gen IV, and both have been 100% so far. Accuracy with the Smith has been on par with the Glocks in that caliber, and the shooter's skills more of a factor than the pistol itself. Triggers may be gritty from the out of the box, but most all smooth out after a couple hundred rounds. Lets also factor in Americans' tendency to not want to let things alone. We have car entheuasts who can't leave their cars factory original, and we have an aftermarket fir gun parts and services that may play some part in our perception of a pistol's ability to function. That and the rumors that rose of the legendary reliability of the original Glocks that have caused many people to believe that they don't have to clean, lube, or maintain them. I also suspect that a chunk of Glock's recent problems are from a run of substandard parts. Then again, I saw a chipped extractor on a G26 a while back, and then caught the shooter chamberinf a round without the aid of a magazine...
Maybe I'm a freak but I carry a civilian M9 all the time and I've tried everything from Glocks to Sigs and even had an XD.
I just like the old thing and think it serves well for a day to day handgun,I use a Soft tuck and really don't notice it on me that much.
I also shoot a DA pistol better then a striker fired one,first shot always goes a little wide (but I see that first long pull shot as a close in "get OFF me" kind of thing) but it's close enough to the rest to count.
SA shots are where I do real good,the striker guns always wind up shooting patters with me.
To each their own I say you like a Glock go for it,you like a 1911 go for it....you like a Luger? hey you can afford it go for it!
So you think d/a-s/a went out with disco....but would consider an HK P-30?
How does that make sense?
-brickboy240
V1 and V2 P30s are LEM, not DA/SA.
I remember in the 1970 S@W was owned by Bangor Punta and The enlightened thought they were poor quality. Colt was the hot set up at the time .Then Colts quality seemed to drop starting in the middle to late 1970s. Browning Hipowers were good to go .LLama were garbage and Walthers were liked. My next door neighbor was a cop asn carried a slick Colt Python for his duty piece. There was some WWII surplus around, I don't remember any more.
Alaskapopo
09-04-13, 10:16
I hate all plastic guns.....The 5906 Smith & Wesson gets my vote.
They are the most accurate/ reliable semi auto pistols I have ever owned.
S & W should be ashamed to even be makeing plastic guns now..
Wow! When I went to the Academy 14 years back the Troopers used to use the 4006 Smith. Talk about a jamamatic and a meat grinder for your hands when doing malfunction drills. The fact is plastic guns are the best duty guns going. Simple reliable, accurate and light weight. If the 5906 is the most reliable gun you have owned you have not owned many good reliable pistols.
Pat
brickboy240
09-04-13, 10:23
I bought a police trade 5906 many years ago. It was cheap and I had little money at the time.
Accuracy was spotty and man was the trigger terrible!
I think many police depts ran these because S&W aggressively marketed them and made them available at a really cheap price.
-brickboy240
I bought a police trade 5906 many years ago. It was cheap and I had little money at the time.
Accuracy was spotty and man was the trigger terrible!
I think many police depts ran these because S&W aggressively marketed them and made them available at a really cheap price.
-brickboy240
I have a lot of experience with the 5904 & 6904. The triggers definitely require a lot of extra training and effort to shoot the pistols well.
The S&W pistols of that era grouped well with 124g lead bullets. You really had to bear down on the pistol to get it to shoot well though.
When I first came on, almost twenty years ago, we were issued the S&W 4506 .45. They were plenty accurate, and extremely reliable. I do not recall one malfunction that was not staged. They were also extremely heavy by today's standards, had a long, relatively heavy D/A first pull, and limited (again, by the standards of today) 8+1 capacity. They were, however, a significant step up from the .38 revolvers we had been using in terms of overall firepower.
We ended up transitioning, like many other departments, to the M&P pistols. We now have double the capacity of before, in a lighter pistol. The trigger is consistent and easier to teach, and we can adjust the grip size for officers with smaller hands. We are able to mount weaponlights to the frame. We saw some increased small parts breakage (mag buttons, right side slide release) but this was all early on in the adoption of the pistol, and seems to have dropped off.
Granted, not all change is good, and it is often hard to accept. It is harder for many to hold something plastic and say it feels more solid or trustworthy than the same item made of metal. However, speaking from my experience, I would not say quality has gone down, but rather that it has evolved.
Unless you carry your Glock 19 unloaded, it's more like 30 Oz.
You are right, don't know were I got that weight from. But it is lighter though, and less bulky.
Personal preference has a lot to do with carrying a pistol, as you know. I have drawn and fired a Glock19 (used to be a 17) some thousands of times.
When you punch it forward, it goes off when my hands stop moving, my eye is right behind the sights, and dead on target.
Three bright green dots!
My first love was a Browning Hi Power, back in the 60s.
Then a LW Colt Commander, then the G17. Now my Glock19Gen4.
Evolution?
In the early 80's I was often present on a very large state firing range used by various state and federal agencies for training. Malfunctions with semi-autos were the rule. Magazines falling out, safety levers coming loose, sights flying off, and feeding and extraction problems were frequent. The S&W 39/59 series pistols were the biggest offenders. One 12 man outfit had new Colt 1911 45s. All were defective. The Walther PP series were poor performers also. New revolvers had their issues. One lot of 400 S&W 65s had so many quality issues that the factory sent a team of fitters to Texas to repair them. They did so with a screwdriver, file, and big lead hammer.
Quality is much better today. Advanced manufacturing processes with their higher precision have eliminated hand fitting from the equation. Competition among the companies to produce desirable products has brought about more research into what works best. Yesteryears' service weapons likely would not have help up as well if they had been subjected to today's higher round counts per weapon.
Each company has good and so-so runs within a line, and this fact accounts for variation in quality seen over time. World class companies hopefully will destroy or repair shit specimens rather than ship them out. About 1983, the Olin Corp destroyed their entire stock of over/under double rifles because they could not make them work.
I got this info from the executive who made the decision. He also torched a 20ga s/s that I had returned.
If only H&K they'd start making some polymer framed striker fired pistols and maybe entire the single stack game to compete with the Shield, XDS, PPS, etc... I'm pretty sure there would be many converts from Glock & M&P in particular if they were to do this, but they won't, because we suck and they hate us. :angry:
Why should HK adopt a striker over a hammer fired pistol? I don't get some people's apparent fascination with strikers.
To answer the OP's question....unequivocally NO. There has never been a more broad selection of reliable sidearms on the market.
PatrioticDisorder
09-04-13, 16:34
Why should HK adopt a striker over a hammer fired pistol? I don't get some people's apparent fascination with strikers.
To answer the OP's question....unequivocally NO. There has never been a more broad selection of reliable sidearms on the market.
Probably so they could stay in business! LOL
In all seriousness, you're on the wrong forum trying to argue the merits of DA/SA hammer fired vs. striker fired, I doubt you'll find many people that can actually deploy a DA/SA handgun more effectively than a striker fired handgun. My first handgun was an H&K USPc .45, the handgun was built like a tank, but I had 2 options for carry, cocked and locked or decocked. I found neither to be as effective for me as my Glock 19 was at the time, plus I had nightmares about needing my HK and trying to pull the trigger with the safety still on, not something I wanted to deal with under stress. Decocked my accuracy and speed suffered significantly compared to the Glock. With experience it became apparent what the better tool was for me.
H&K is in financial trouble and it's a shame because they do make quality built firearms, they just don't happen to be firearms most people want. You are in the minority when it comes to DA/SA, I promise you HK would have one hell of a time trying to meet the demand for an HK striker fired handgun, let alone a line of those handguns.
DreadPirateMoyer
09-04-13, 16:51
Hold up. You're discussing two different things: action (single, double) and the actual operation of the gun (striker, hammer). Just because HK makes hammer fired guns does not mean they are stuck with DA/SA, as evidenced by their light LEM kits that give you everything you said you like about your Glocks (albeit with a slightly different trigger feel, which is a training issue) in terms of operation.
It still begs the question: why strikers? I like them because they protect all the operational parts from external damage. I would love if HK made a striker gun. That said, I don't think it's necessary. HK pistols are just fine being hammer guns, they sell just fine, and their pistols being hammer-fired isn't the reason they're in financial trouble.
Their financial trouble, IMO, has a lot more to do with a lack of focus on civilian sales and marketing gimped, neutered versions of their popular guns to the US and other civilian markets. The pistols aren't part of that. We can buy the real thing there, and they sell well from what I've read.
P.S.: not to mention some people prefer DA/SA (me :D), and HK hits that market just fine.
PatrioticDisorder
09-04-13, 17:02
Hold up. You're discussing two different things: action (single, double) and the actual operation of the gun (striker, hammer). Just because HK makes hammer fired guns does not mean they are stuck with DA/SA, as evidenced by their light LEM kits that give you everything you said you like about your Glocks (albeit with a slightly different trigger feel, which is a training issue) in terms of operation.
It still begs the question: why strikers? I like them because they protect all the operational parts from external damage. I would love if HK made a striker gun. That said, I don't think it's necessary. HK pistols are just fine being hammer guns, they sell just fine, and their pistols being hammer-fired isn't the reason they're in financial trouble.
Their financial trouble, IMO, has a lot more to do with a lack of focus on civilian sales and marketing gimped, neutered versions of their popular guns to the US and other civilian markets. The pistols aren't part of that. We can buy the real thing there, and they sell well from what I've read.
P.S.: not to mention some people prefer DA/SA (me :D), and HK hits that market just fine.
LEM trigger is very difficult to get used to, to the point it might as well be DA/SA, but I digress.
Notice what I highlighted in bold in your statement, that is exactly my point. HK does not focus on civilian sales, if they did they would have made a line of striker fired pistols years ago while Glocks and now M&Ps have become so popular. They missed a huge window of opportunity, but they can still salvage some of it if they just listened to what the consumer wants...
Hold up. You're discussing two different things: action (single, double) and the actual operation of the gun (striker, hammer). Just because HK makes hammer fired guns does not mean they are stuck with DA/SA, as evidenced by their light LEM kits that give you everything you said you like about your Glocks (albeit with a slightly different trigger feel, which is a training issue) in terms of operation.
It still begs the question: why strikers? I like them because they protect all the operational parts from external damage. I would love if HK made a striker gun. That said, I don't think it's necessary. HK pistols are just fine being hammer guns, they sell just fine, and their pistols being hammer-fired isn't the reason they're in financial trouble.
Their financial trouble, IMO, has a lot more to do with a lack of focus on civilian sales and marketing gimped, neutered versions of their popular guns to the US and other civilian markets. The pistols aren't part of that. We can buy the real thing there, and they sell well from what I've read.
P.S.: not to mention some people prefer DA/SA (me :D), and HK hits that market just fine.
HK do great military stuff! They fixed the Brit Bull Pup. U.S. special forces use the 415, 416? great gun.
Re the Glock 19? I have never fired a pistol, ever, quicker on target from a draw, than the Glock19.
High Tower
09-04-13, 17:34
Probably so they could stay in business! LOL
In all seriousness, you're on the wrong forum trying to argue the merits of DA/SA hammer fired vs. striker fired, I doubt you'll find many people that can actually deploy a DA/SA handgun more effectively than a striker fired handgun. My first handgun was an H&K USPc .45, the handgun was built like a tank, but I had 2 options for carry, cocked and locked or decocked. I found neither to be as effective for me as my Glock 19 was at the time, plus I had nightmares about needing my HK and trying to pull the trigger with the safety still on, not something I wanted to deal with under stress. Decocked my accuracy and speed suffered significantly compared to the Glock. With experience it became apparent what the better tool was for me.
H&K is in financial trouble and it's a shame because they do make quality built firearms, they just don't happen to be firearms most people want. You are in the minority when it comes to DA/SA, I promise you HK would have one hell of a time trying to meet the demand for an HK striker fired handgun, let alone a line of those handguns.
I know its the trendy thing for the cool kids to rag on HK without fact or merit, but the whole financial thing has been cover completely in the GD thread a month or so ago. The misconceptions about HK that are patsied around on the internet are ridiculous.
HK cannot meet the demand for DA/SA. Its not like they need a striker gun to keep their machines running. I like options and all, but I doubt a striker fired pistol is the design that would make or break HK. There are still plenty of people who aren't afraid of DA/SA and I truly believe that all the folk saying they would buy a striker HK wouldn't anyway.
But carry on with the irrational HK hate....
PatrioticDisorder
09-04-13, 17:47
HK cannot meet the demand for DA/SA. Its not like they need a striker gun to keep their machines running. I like options and all, but I doubt a striker fired pistol is the design that would make or break HK. There are still plenty of people who aren't afraid of DA/SA and I truly believe that all the folk saying they would buy a striker HK wouldn't anyway.
But carry on with the irrational HK hate....
Who's hating on HK? I'd not only buy a single HK striker fired pistol, I'd buy the entire line as the line is released.... Probably sell most of my other handguns for them as well... And it's not a matter of being "afraid" of DA/SA it's a matter of using the tool that makes you most effective. As someone else put it, DA/SA went out of style with the disco.
StrikerFired
09-04-13, 17:55
I don't "hate" HK pistols, I just don't shoot them very well. I had an HK USP and the DA/SA just never felt right for me. I went to Glock and to M&P's and couldn't be happier. For the record, I also tried a Sig 220 in DA/SA and DAK and didn't like them either.
DanjojoUSMC
09-04-13, 18:08
More to do with price - if P30's, HK45's, and P2000/sk's were around $500 new and flooding the market like Glocks, M&P's, XD's then you would see wayyyy more at the range and in duty holsters.
Unless it was some modern evolution of the P7 series or similar to P99AS I probably wouldn't touch a striker-fired HK.
PatrioticDisorder
09-04-13, 18:13
More to do with price - if P30's, HK45's, and P2000/sk's were around $500 new and flooding the market like Glocks, M&P's, XD's then you would see wayyyy more at the range and in duty holsters.
Unless it was some modern evolution of the P7 series or similar to P99AS I probably wouldn't touch a striker-fired HK.
Price might be an issue for some, but it's a very small issue for most. People who buy M&Ps and put every Apex part in their gun, aftermarket barrel, night sights, red dot, tac light, holsters for every bit of dress, buy 10 of these guns (different sizes, calibers, back ups) and who put hundreds of rounds through it each week/month and attend training classes won't have an issue paying a little more for an H&K, it's an after thought really.
H&K is known for making well built handguns (and long guns), but they're not exactly what the market wants, that is the issue. You could make HKs the same exact price as a Glock or M&P and I'll choose either over the HK because it's a better tool for me. However, you put a striker fired HK up next to a Glock or M&P, even for double the price and I'll be purchasing the HK and I can assure you I'm far from the only one who feels that way.
DreadPirateMoyer
09-04-13, 18:26
LEM trigger is very difficult to get used to, to the point it might as well be DA/SA, but I digress.
Notice what I highlighted in bold in your statement, that is exactly my point. HK does not focus on civilian sales, if they did they would have made a line of striker fired pistols years ago while Glocks and now M&Ps have become so popular. They missed a huge window of opportunity, but they can still salvage some of it if they just listened to what the consumer wants...
Yeah, but that's the thing -- the pistols DO sell well in the civilian world, so much so that HK cannot produce as many as are demanded. They have no need to make a striker-fired gun when their current pistols sell out already. That's not their problem as of this moment, both in regards to financial stuff and pistol quality/operation. Their problems are outside of the pistol line.
As for the question at hand (duty pistol quality degredation), I think it's a mixed bag of yes and no. Compared to 5 or 10 years ago, yes, I'd say the largest portion of the civilian market (Glock, M&P, and XD, I think?) has gone backwards, to the point where I will never buy some of the major players again due to troubles I've had. Quite frankly, I think the big players in the game suck, with so many issues that have persisted for years going unsolved that it's inexcusable. I've still seen accuracy problems in recent-production M&P9s, all manners of ejection/jamming problems in Glocks, and utterly-awful design in the XD lineup. None of these guys will see my money due to their questionable quality that continues to this day.
However, also worth noting is there are a lot more options these days than there were back then, which means if you want a pistol that operates as it should right out of the box like Glocks of old, you can still get one. In fact, I'd say these parts of the market have actially taken a step forward and progressed duty pistols in a very positive way: Walther PPQs, FN FNS/FNXs, Beretta 92A1s, and HK P30s/HK45s. These are all very, very good options depending on your needs, and like I said, they've actually pushed duty pistol development forward.
We just have to wait for the market to catch on. Don't worry. A few will. Heck, the P30/HK45 already have. Just need the PPQ and FNS to follow suit. :)
High Tower
09-04-13, 18:28
Who's hating on HK? I'd not only buy a single HK striker fired pistol, I'd buy the entire line as the line is released.... Probably sell most of my other handguns for them as well... And it's not a matter of being "afraid" of DA/SA it's a matter of using the tool that makes you most effective. As someone else put it, DA/SA went out of style with the disco.
Mi apologies PatrioticDisorder. I wasn't focused on you - I'm not a big multi-quoter and your post was closer and I took it as a "HK hater" post.
With the HK mag thread, parts of this one, etc I was just getting worn down by everyone posting weird unsubstantiated shit about HK. For some reason, HK is the target company on a lot of forums and I don't understand it. I cannot have a Glock as my main carry gun because the Glock slide rips into my hand when I shoot them. But I don't hop into every fracking Glock thread and shit in it.
Probably so they could stay in business! LOL
In all seriousness, you're on the wrong forum trying to argue the merits of DA/SA hammer fired vs. striker fired, I doubt you'll find many people that can actually deploy a DA/SA handgun more effectively than a striker fired handgun. My first handgun was an H&K USPc .45, the handgun was built like a tank, but I had 2 options for carry, cocked and locked or decocked. I found neither to be as effective for me as my Glock 19 was at the time, plus I had nightmares about needing my HK and trying to pull the trigger with the safety still on, not something I wanted to deal with under stress. Decocked my accuracy and speed suffered significantly compared to the Glock. With experience it became apparent what the better tool was for me.
H&K is in financial trouble and it's a shame because they do make quality built firearms, they just don't happen to be firearms most people want. You are in the minority when it comes to DA/SA, I promise you HK would have one hell of a time trying to meet the demand for an HK striker fired handgun, let alone a line of those handguns.
I'm on the wrong forum? Yeah right. Whether I'm in the minority on DA/SA matters little when discussing striker vs. hammer fired.
I'm not so young as to have nightmares about firearms. Let alone in circumstances that are quite remote.
Edited to add: I own a lot of pistols, all of different brands, operating controls and operating principle. (Including, GASP, revolvers) They all function perfectly fine when I do my part. You are showing your ignorance when you associate HK with only DA/SA so this is likely not going to end well for you if you persist.
For some reason, HK is the target company on a lot of forums and I don't understand it.
I quit worrying about that years ago. It is a combination of ignorance, inexperience and cheapness. There is a great example of it in this thread. Sold an excellent USP with a safety instead of spending a few dollars and 15 minutes to change it to a variant without a safety.
Issues, issues. We all here about issue after issue with brand x and brand y. It used to be one could buy a Glock and run it out of the box and never have an issue. While I don't believe everything I read, there is way too much out there to support the issued Glock has been having with extraction / ejection. Sure, buy a few parts and it is an easy fix, but should this be necessary?
Enter the M&P, the American made answer to the Glock...finally. Too bad the accuracy is pure garbage. One can support APEX or Salient, spend 400-500 bucks and make it decent, but really?
Outside of barrel issues that the factory should fix with the 9mm only, what's wrong?
Sig = get over the double action thing, went out with disco, grunge at the latest!
XD = I just threw up as I wrote that
PPQ= great pistol, but not going to seize the market like Glock for logistics. If you train/complete a lot, you will need logistics
FNH FNS = I thought this thing had potential, what happened to it? FNH being such a military contract based company let that thing flounder.
HK = Price, ridiculous, as with all HK products. I have thought of biting the bullet and getting a P30, but for THAT price, it had better be perfect. Magazines are crazy expensive and one can't just find them anywhere. Again, when are they going to get away from a hammer? I know, the light LEM trigger.....got it, still has a hammer.
I know, I am seeking the perfect pistol. I have a great SA MC Operator with no issues; however, 1911s are expensive and require expensive maintenance. I won't let just any chimp work on it. Luckily, I have a close friend to keep it tuned and rolling. But the 1911 is not the modern answer to a service pistol. I don't expect the pistol that is designed for my hand and has a 1911-like trigger. What happened to Glock and what will be the answer to the next great service pistol? Will Glock return to its former glory? Will someone else step up?
I don't know, what did a glock cost back in the 90s?
Alaskapopo
09-04-13, 23:18
I don't care if they use a striker or a hammer all I want them to do is make a descent trigger. Not some double action hybrid. A good short crisp trigger with a short reset and a consistent pull from the first shot to the last.
Pat
Alaskapopo
09-04-13, 23:21
I quit worrying about that years ago. It is a combination of ignorance, inexperience and cheapness. There is a great example of it in this thread. Sold an excellent USP with a safety instead of spending a few dollars and 15 minutes to change it to a variant without a safety.
Then again some of us drank the Koolaid and then spit it out once we realized it taste like crap. I owned and carried a HK USP in 45 as my first duty side arm. Crap trigger was the biggest problem with that gun and a high bore axis. The P7 series was a great pistol however. Wish they still made those.
Pat
The 41 oz loaded weight of a Beretta 92, not so much.
I'm 160 pounds, 5'10'' and I carry a 92 in the Phoenix Arizona summer. it's still less than a full size 1911.
DreadPirateMoyer
09-04-13, 23:50
Meh. Outside of aftermarket parts or trigger jobs, I haven't found a single non-1911 trigger I liked outside of FN's FNX line of handguns (really, really liked them). Quite frankly, I think they're all pretty mediocre, whether it's Glock, M&Ps, HK DA/SA, FN FNSs, Beretta 92s, and Walther PPQs. They all have different quirks and such, but really, none of them are amazing or terrible from my perspective. They're all boring, unrefined, and serviceable. Outside of a match that's measured in split seconds, I don't think there's much of a difference.
But regardless of HK's triggers, no one can say they don't make a quality handgun. They do, along with plenty of other players in the market. The jump back in quality has come from the bigger players, in my experience, which makes it seem like the whole market blows since factory logistics and aftermarket support aren't there yet for those outside of Glock/M&P/XD.
thopkins22
09-05-13, 00:01
As a died in the wool Glock user, I'll admit that they're breaking my heart. Chances are pretty good that if I get one manufactured today, it will be fine...but not 99.999% like it used to be and certainly the ratio was way worse for way too long. I want to know if the Maytag man was ever fired from GI.
Who's hating on HK? I'd not only buy a single HK striker fired pistol, I'd buy the entire line as the line is released.... Probably sell most of my other handguns for them as well... And it's not a matter of being "afraid" of DA/SA it's a matter of using the tool that makes you most effective. As someone else put it, DA/SA went out of style with the disco.
Well, you better tell the vast majority of the top tier SOF Units around the world that they are still living in the "disco" years. What do they know about being "effective"? Oh, that random errornet dude knows more about shooting people in the face than they do, so they better listen up!
This crap is why forums suck now days. It is also why a lot of "SME's" (the ones that aren't making money off of the forum's) or active duty SOF guys are choosing not to post.
Well, you better tell the vast majority of the top tier SOF Units around the world that they are still living in the "disco" years. What do they know about being "effective"? Oh, that random errornet dude knows more about shooting people in the face than they do, so they better listen up!
This crap is why forums suck now days. It is also why a lot of "SME's" (the ones that aren't making money off of the forum's) or active duty SOF guys are choosing not to post.
I agree 100%.
I prefer a DA/SA over a striker fired weapon, as do many others. How is it out dated? If anything, I view it as a "premium" feature. If I'm on a budget, I look for a striker fired handgun; if I have the extra money to burn through then I'm looking for a DA/SA such as a HK, FN, or classic Sig.
The most elite tactical/combat units in the world use primarily Heckler & Koch weapons, be it their primary or sidearm.. but apparently they make "outdated" and "out of style" hardware. :lol:
Alaskapopo
09-05-13, 11:47
I agree 100%.
I prefer a DA/SA over a striker fired weapon, as do many others. How is it out dated? If anything, I view it as a "premium" feature. If I'm on a budget, I look for a striker fired handgun; if I have the extra money to burn through then I'm looking for a DA/SA such as a HK, FN, or classic Sig.
The most elite tactical/combat units in the world use primarily Heckler & Koch weapons, be it their primary or sidearm.. but apparently they make "outdated" and "out of style" hardware. :lol:
The best of the best such as Delta are not using HK pistols as their main go to side arms. They are using Glock. As Vickers said its a Glock world.
Pat
DreadPirateMoyer
09-05-13, 11:56
The best of the best such as Delta are not using HK pistols as their main go to side arms. They are using Glock. As Vickers said its a Glock world.
Pat
Mind providing a link? Everything I've read says SOCOM (whether SEALs, SFOD, or otherwise) uses HK45s and/or 1911s. I've heard mumblings of G22s, but never saw anything concrete on it.
The initial topic in this thread was not directed at a certain type of pistol being "outdated". If someone likes DA, great. Some great units use DA guns. Some great units use Glocks and 1911s as well. I don't wish to comment on who uses what, we all have our own sources and experiences with that.
So if the "out with disco" comment was in poor taste and drove this in the wrong direction, I apologize. That all said, does it seem to anyone else that the quality level of such brands as Sig and Glock has gone down in the past few years? Why would such top notch brands let their QC slip so much? I didn't mention the M&P, because it has not been around as long. Any issues it has or had weren't a slip from once great QC, it is where they started. Were better versions of Sigs and Glocks being made overseas? Now that they are being made here, has the quality suffered? I support made in the USA, so hopefully this is a complete coincidence.
Alaskapopo
09-05-13, 12:00
Mind providing a link? Everything I've read says SOCOM (whether SEALs, SFOD, or otherwise) uses HK45s and/or 1911s. I've heard mumblings of G22s, but never saw anything concrete on it.
Glock 19's are popular as an always gun and the Glock 22 was the last side arm I heard of them using as a main duty side arm.
Pat
If one sits at the boardwalk on a Saturday on KAF, one would see most SEALs with Sig 226s. Most SF guys with either issue Berettas or Glock 19/17. The only ones seen (understanding that he SUPER SECRET guys aren't seen out and about much) with HK USPs are the Australian SF types (not sure how they are designated). Just my observation. Not to say units don't use other stuff, this is just what one sees in the holsters on a day to day basis.
DanjojoUSMC
09-05-13, 12:12
Think it is a combination of mass numbers rushed out with political weather and rise of CCW, materials going up in price while manufacturers generally try to keep price down, internet age where most bad batches will be reported several times - maybe even leaving a stink for years.
If we learn well how the design functions and make sure ours is doing so while keeping up with maintenance and inspections - we'll be ok. Doesn't matter if it was the hotness from the 70's, 80's, 90's, etc. these things don't advance like digital technology.
Great anology! (Reference technology). I guess that is what I was getting at. The Gen 2 Glocks seem to be what everyone refers to as the best made. Two generations later, one would think they would be even better. Your analogy put it into perspective. We may be in the middle of a "firearms advancement plateau" right now, maybe?
Psalms144.1
09-05-13, 12:25
The best of the best such as Delta are not using HK pistols as their main go to side arms. They are using Glock. As Vickers said its a Glock world.
PatPat, there are Army SOF elements using the G22, though the overwhelming majority of SF carry the issued M9. NSW uses the P226, or HK45CT, with a tiny smattering of P239s. G19s are available through the system, but they're not typically "issued" in great numbers.
Regards,
Kevin
Alaskapopo
09-05-13, 12:42
Pat, there are Army SOF elements using the G22, though the overwhelming majority of SF carry the issued M9. NSW uses the P226, or HK45CT, with a tiny smattering of P239s. G19s are available through the system, but they're not typically "issued" in great numbers.
Regards,
Kevin
That is kind of what I have heard but I was also told the Glock 19 is very popular not sure if they are personally owned or issued. Thanks for responding.
pat
Pat, there are Army SOF elements using the G22, though the overwhelming majority of SF carry the issued M9. NSW uses the P226, or HK45CT, with a tiny smattering of P239s. G19s are available through the system, but they're not typically "issued" in great numbers.
Regards,
Kevin
Glock 9mms are all over the place. Even large segments of the National Guard SF has got G19s. M4Guru on these pages more than a year ago I think, wrote that nowadays you hardly ever see a pipehitter with an M9. MARSOC has G19s - the new Colt is for the brass to show off, but the 19 is what they wanted and what they got. And no, I'm not providing a link. ;)
Austin Millbarge
09-05-13, 16:34
Last time I was at Blackwater for training ( this spring), there were a ton of high speed low drag military types wandering around. Not sure who/what they were, they don't wear name tags :D.
They all were carrying Glocks. Not a 1911 in sight.
BoringGuy45
09-05-13, 17:07
I've had exactly one malfunction with my M&P45. I've lost count of how many rounds I've put through it. Smoothest shooting pistol I've ever shot, and I've shot high end 1911s and HKs. Yeah, the trigger could use work, but it's at least acceptable. I'm doing an Apex upgrade soon.
I've liked the direction that service grade pistols have gone. I agree that quality hasn't gone downhill, the Internet has just made every hiccup any individual's gun makes gets blown up into "don't trust ANY gun this company makes EVER!"
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-05-13, 17:37
There was a sweet-spot in the early to mid 00s where you could go buy a G17, SIG 226, HK P2000, Beretta, etc with very little chance you were going to get a lemon. The M&P was a bit dodgy when it came out but it developed into a nice gun. But The SIG general QC and 4th Gen Glock issues have created the impression that everything is going to Hell. Glock will/has sort-out their troubles (they always have, but the last time Glock had troubles like this there wasn't an internet). SIG, well who cares?
I don't think the problems are imaginary, since I have seen them. But I do think they are overblown. Just buy an
HK. LOL.
Duty pistol selection has definitely improved.
Looking at the .45 ACP as a prime example. In the last 6-7 years you've had the HK45, HK45C, FNX-45, M&P45 and I guess the XD45.
In many ways the "best" .45 ACP pistol ever made have been made in the last decade. This for a pistol cartridge that is over 100 years old.
DA/SA and Striker both have their advantages and disadvantages. Striker fired guns are easier to shoot accurately on the first shot...and that's because they are basically the equivalent of a single action only with no manual safety..they have just been marketed differently and thus people are comfortable with them. A PPQ has no more take up and no more trigger pull weight than a typical DA/SA with the hammer cocked yet if you were to see someone suggest carrying a P30 DA/SA with the hammer cocked you would think they were crazy yet they would think its completely safe to do so with a PPQ.
And I've heard all the "your trigger finger is your safety" mantra before. If that were the bottom line then one could carry a 1911 with the grip safety pinned and the thumb safety off with a 3# trigger pull and be completely safe because after all "your trigger finger is you safety". In the real world as a civilian carry a pistol and being legally responsible for every bullet that leaves your muzzle having a trigger that is as easy as possible to activate isn't always a good thing.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-05-13, 19:03
I agree with AJD with regard to .45. The aborted pistol trials made the best .45s ever.
Alaskapopo
09-05-13, 19:15
Duty pistol selection has definitely improved.
Looking at the .45 ACP as a prime example. In the last 6-7 years you've had the HK45, HK45C, FNX-45, M&P45 and I guess the XD45.
In many ways the "best" .45 ACP pistol ever made have been made in the last decade. This for a pistol cartridge that is over 100 years old.
DA/SA and Striker both have their advantages and disadvantages. Striker fired guns are easier to shoot accurately on the first shot...and that's because they are basically the equivalent of a single action only with no manual safety..they have just been marketed differently and thus people are comfortable with them. A PPQ has no more take up and no more trigger pull weight than a typical DA/SA with the hammer cocked yet if you were to see someone suggest carrying a P30 DA/SA with the hammer cocked you would think they were crazy yet they would think its completely safe to do so with a PPQ.
And I've heard all the "your trigger finger is your safety" mantra before. If that were the bottom line then one could carry a 1911 with the grip safety pinned and the thumb safety off with a 3# trigger pull and be completely safe because after all "your trigger finger is you safety". In the real world as a civilian carry a pistol and being legally responsible for every bullet that leaves your muzzle having a trigger that is as easy as possible to activate isn't always a good thing.
In the real world keeping your finger off the trigger is the best insurance against negligent discharges not heavy triggers or extra complicated safety devices.
Pat
I made reference to your counterpoint in my original post. If "keeping your finger off the trigger" is all that matters then one doesn't need any safety, passive or manual and the trigger can literally be as light and short as it can be made mechanically which no one would buy into.
In addition in a real life shooting scenario the user likely isn't going to keep his finger completely off the trigger when being faced with a potentially lethal threat. In this high stress, high intensity situation the average shooter is going to have his finger resting on the trigger out of fear, most likely applying some pressure.
With a striker fired gun your first indication of this may be a loud bang, a flash and a hole in someone you didn't mean to shoot.
With DA/SA you will see the hammer movement in your vision.
Talking on a gun forum about "proper trigger discipline" is pretty easy to do when your sitting in a office chair drinking a soda, having a potentially lethal adversary facing you in the dark room is another.
In addition your also assuming that once you've decided to press the shot that nothing could change that situation to make you NOT want to take the shot in which case a longer, heavier pull would be to your advantage. You could be in a crowded environment, you might not be sure the threat your facing requires you to take that shot, someone might have entered your line of sight the moment you decided to take the shot, etc.
I will absolutely concede that a lighter trigger pull makes shooting your first shot easier. And I will also absolutely state that also comes with potential drawbacks.
Either way make your choice(striker, DA/SA, LEM, etc.), practice and move on but to say DA/SA has no merits is just flat out ignorant and nothing else.
Alaskapopo
09-05-13, 21:00
I made reference to your counterpoint in my original post. If "keeping your finger off the trigger" is all that matters then one doesn't need any safety, passive or manual and the trigger can literally be as light and short as it can be made mechanically which no one would buy into.
In addition in a real life shooting scenario the user likely isn't going to keep his finger completely off the trigger when being faced with a potentially lethal threat. In this high stress, high intensity situation the average shooter is going to have his finger resting on the trigger out of fear, most likely applying some pressure.
With a striker fired gun your first indication of this may be a loud bang, a flash and a hole in someone you didn't mean to shoot.
With DA/SA you will see the hammer movement in your vision.
Talking on a gun forum about "proper trigger discipline" is pretty easy to do when your sitting in a office chair drinking a soda, having a potentially lethal adversary facing you in the dark room is another.
In addition your also assuming that once you've decided to press the shot that nothing could change that situation to make you NOT want to take the shot in which case a longer, heavier pull would be to your advantage. You could be in a crowded environment, you might not be sure the threat your facing requires you to take that shot, someone might have entered your line of sight the moment you decided to take the shot, etc.
I will absolutely concede that a lighter trigger pull makes shooting your first shot easier. And I will also absolutely state that also comes with potential drawbacks.
Either way make your choice(striker, DA/SA, LEM, etc.), practice and move on but to say DA/SA has no merits is just flat out ignorant and nothing else.
There is such a thing as too light of a trigger on a defensive handgun but not for the reasons many think. You don't want to break the shot before you intended to once your up and prepping the trigger under stress. Many people think that they can make the gun safer by making it harder to fire and that is folly. Dr. Enoka (spelling wrong sorry) did a lot of work showing what causes negligent discharges and nearly all of those causes will discharge a weapon if your finger is on the trigger rather it is a 4 pound short pull or a 12 pound long one. Most trigger compromises in the name of safety like the LEM or Sig DAK or Glocks New York 1 and 2 simply make the gun harder to shoot well under stress. They don't make the gun safer. Only training can make the shooter safer. I feel the DA SA design has no merits what so ever like Col. Cooper said it is an interesting solution for a nonexistent problem.
As a firearms instructor I have seen that DA SA designs give shooters the most difficulty. They have to master two trigger pulls, remember to decock and most have a long trigger reset due to the way they are designed. The first shot is usually either slower when compared to a SA type firearm or safe action or its off target. You can train and shoot these guns well but never as well as you could shoot a gun that was not handicapped by such an abomination or a ignition system.
Missed some things you posted when I first replied. A well trained shooter will not put his finger on the trigger when he should not regardless of the situation. I have been on some scary calls myself and never have I felt the need to violate this basic rule. As for the shot taking longer being an advantage no. Once I have made that decision I want that round coming out of the barrel as soon as possible. The longer it takes me to fire the long the threat has to kill me or another target. One thing I do know is mechanical solutions to training issues never work well.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-05-13, 23:28
There is no question that a gun with a heavier trigger is generally more difficult to master. No reason to argue about that because everybody knows target triggers a generally lighter than standard triggers for a reason.
Everybody also knows that for 100 years that there was no argument that a gun with a heavier trigger is more difficult to fire accidentally for the same reason it is harder to fire intentionally: it has a trigger that is physically harder to pull. As far as I can tell it wasn't until Karl Walter (of Glock, not Walther) came along and started selling Glocks to people that it ever occurred to anyone to claim that a gun with lighter trigger is just as safe (or indeed now maybe SAFER!) as one that has a heavier trigger. Of course, Gaston never intended that the Glock be carried be loaded except in emergencies so he at least had a colorable argument for omitting the manual safety from his gun (but note, he still left the absurd trigger inside a trigger as a sort of vestigial "safety device.") So they came up with the name "Safe Action" to address the problem. Much like the "Smart" car, which everyone knows is stupid, they subverted your expectations by claiming a flaw as a feature--a genius marketing move. So now, an automatic pistol with a 5 pound trigger, which normally would be secured by at least one manual safety, was now safteyless for your safety. Of course, early adopters like DC and NY had a crapload of accidental discharges which Glock's legal department chalked up to poor training. OK. Of course, they came up with much heavier triggers "just in case." And for some reason they still don't recommend their lighter connectors for duty (I guess they just want people to be poor shots?).
It is easy to guess why Glock didn't deliver these guns with heavier triggers: no one would have bought them. In the 80s, you could get an H&K P7, SIG 226, S&W, BHP or 1911--all of which had pretty decent Single Action triggers in the 5 pound range. If Glock showed up with a 9 pound trigger it would be on the scrap heap with all the rest of the DAO pistols of that era.
Anyway, I have and love my M&P and G19 (both of which have factory triggers). Great pistols. VERY easy to shoot pistols--at the expense of safety. A compromise I am willing to make. But I absolutely reject the idea that they are as safe or safer than Glocks with NY triggers or HK's with LEM triggers. A heavier trigger makes the gun less prone to mishap. Be it accidental trigger contact from a finger (train all you want, it will happen) or some external object. Shit happens. Simply admonishing people to be perfect is easy to do, but it just isn't reality.
Alaskapopo
09-05-13, 23:51
There is no question that a gun with a heavier trigger is generally more difficult to master. No reason to argue about that because everybody knows target triggers a generally lighter than standard triggers for a reason.
Everybody also knows that for 100 years that there was no argument that a gun with a heavier trigger is more difficult to fire accidentally for the same reason it is harder to fire intentionally: it has a trigger that is physically harder to pull. As far as I can tell it wasn't until Karl Walter (of Glock, not Walther) came along and started selling Glocks to people that it ever occurred to anyone to claim that a gun with lighter trigger is just as safe (or indeed now maybe SAFER!) as one that has a heavier trigger. Of course, Gaston never intended that the Glock be carried be loaded except in emergencies so he at least had a colorable argument for omitting the manual safety from his gun (but note, he still left the absurd trigger inside a trigger as a sort of vestigial "safety device.") So they came up with the name "Safe Action" to address the problem. Much like the "Smart" car, which everyone knows is stupid, they subverted your expectations by claiming a flaw as a feature--a genius marketing move. So now, an automatic pistol with a 5 pound trigger, which normally would be secured by at least one manual safety, was now safteyless for your safety. Of course, early adopters like DC and NY had a crapload of accidental discharges which Glock's legal department chalked up to poor training. OK. Of course, they came up with much heavier triggers "just in case." And for some reason they still don't recommend their lighter connectors for duty (I guess they just want people to be poor shots?).
It is easy to guess why Glock didn't deliver these guns with heavier triggers: no one would have bought them. In the 80s, you could get an H&K P7, SIG 226, S&W, BHP or 1911--all of which had pretty decent Single Action triggers in the 5 pound range. If Glock showed up with a 9 pound trigger it would be on the scrap heap with all the rest of the DAO pistols of that era.
Anyway, I have and love my M&P and G19 (both of which have factory triggers). Great pistols. VERY easy to shoot pistols--at the expense of safety. A compromise I am willing to make. But I absolutely reject the idea that they are as safe or safer than Glocks with NY triggers or HK's with LEM triggers. A heavier trigger makes the gun less prone to mishap. Be it accidental trigger contact from a finger (train all you want, it will happen) or some external object. Shit happens. Simply admonishing people to be perfect is easy to do, but it just isn't reality.
Its a training issue. More ND's have been logged in police hands with revolvers than any other weapon. The reason being the training sucked back when revolvers were standard issue. I have been competing with custom 2011's with triggers as light as 2 pounds over demeanding courses of fire without an ND. Its the shooter that is the safety problem not the gun.
Pat
thopkins22
09-05-13, 23:58
Here's the thing as I see it. If my finger is on the trigger, the safety is off. At which point an easier to shoot pistol becomes safer for everything but the target. Granted it's a rifle, but I have to consciously tell myself not to thumb the safety down on a carbine if I'm going to test the safety.
There are great points regarding catching on gear...but less of an issue than we make it out to be as pistols have holsters. Certainly the danger level is much higher without a safety and a light trigger when re-holstering...but that shouldn't be a race anyway.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-06-13, 00:06
Its a training issue. More ND's have been logged in police hands with revolvers than any other weapon. The reason being the training sucked back when revolvers were standard issue. I have been competing with custom 2011's with triggers as light as 2 pounds over demeanding courses of fire without an ND. Its the shooter that is the safety problem not the gun.
Yes, a more trained person is less likely to have an ND with a light trigger than a less trained one.
DanjojoUSMC
09-06-13, 00:08
It's still better to have something more brain-fart resistant in my opinion...some degree of being bubba-proof. No doubt in my mind the old revolver-era ND numbers would have been a good bit higher with Glocks or similar.
In a perfect world you never drop a gun, knife, light, etc. and you definitely don't train for it, but in the real world it happens all the time even among ninjas.
Alaskapopo
09-06-13, 00:21
It's still better to have something more brain-fart resistant in my opinion...some degree of being bubba-proof. No doubt in my mind the old revolver-era ND numbers would have been a good bit higher with Glocks or similar.
In a perfect world you never drop a gun, knife, light, etc. and you definitely don't train for it, but in the real world it happens all the time even among ninjas.
I don't agree. What causes ND's is startle response, postural instability, and sympathetic response. All of these cause your to clench with enough force to set off even the heaviest trigger if your finger is on it. I don't think people understand that guns don't fire by themselves. If you keep your booger hooks out of the trigger guard you will be ok.
In the real world you default to your level of training. I respect Greg's opinion but I don't agree.
Pat
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-06-13, 00:42
I respect Greg's opinion but I don't agree.
Pat
Well then CLEARLY you are wrong SIR!!:jester:
PatrioticDisorder
09-06-13, 06:41
I find it humerous it's the same guys who love their DA/SA that don't trust themselves as being safe with a striker fired gun, we now know why they don't shoot striker fired guns. I agree with Alaskapopo, it's a training issue. Keep the boogerhook out of the trigger guard and there is no issue.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-06-13, 07:39
keep the boogerhook out of the trigger guard and it is no issue
That's the manta. Applies just as well to seat belts and motorcycle helmets.
One thing I think we can all agree on is the safety crowd has lost the debate, for good or bad. Any new service pistol designs are likely to be saftyless striker-fired designs like the Glock barring specific requests (like the military, who still recognize the usefulness of safeties and the increased reliability of hammer-fired designs).
DanjojoUSMC
09-06-13, 09:15
I find it humerous it's the same guys who love their DA/SA that don't trust themselves as being safe with a striker fired gun, we now know why they don't shoot striker fired guns. I agree with Alaskapopo, it's a training issue. Keep the boogerhook out of the trigger guard and there is no issue.
More of my thoughts - It's the guys/gals who can't quickly and accurately place a double action shot that I don't trust with a typical striker fired pistol. Perfect safety practices take just as long to develop than semi-decent trigger control. Which side of the fence do we look from? Drawing and placing an accurate DA shot in a timely manner is not that difficult. Some people just don't have the physical/mental ability or a real trainer but then why trust them in carrying or using any firearm?
One thing that always bugs me in this area is repitition of consistent trigger importance - if it was DA of 5lbs followed by SA of 3lbs you would never here of it. Likewise if someone is not prepping the first shot then pull length is different even on striker fired. When it comes down to it technically even your basic m16 or m4 doesn't even behave the same on each and every trigger pull. As far as mastering two trigger pulls - master how to pull the DA trigger quickly and accurately and the SA just follows. Only thing extra you master is different rhythm same with all.
Alaskapopo
09-06-13, 10:28
That's the manta. Applies just as well to seat belts and motorcycle helmets.
One thing I think we can all agree on is the safety crowd has lost the debate, for good or bad. Any new service pistol designs are likely to be saftyless striker-fired designs like the Glock barring specific requests (like the military, who still recognize the usefulness of safeties and the increased reliability of hammer-fired designs).
The Military is a bad example as most of the end users do anything they can to get a hold of Glock 19's if they are able. Not many people I know in the military like the M9. A hammer fired design is not more reliable. A good design with a striker or a hammer is a good design.
Pat
Alaskapopo
09-06-13, 10:30
More of my thoughts - It's the guys/gals who can't quickly and accurately place a double action shot that I don't trust with a typical striker fired pistol. Perfect safety practices take just as long to develop than semi-decent trigger control. Which side of the fence do we look from? Drawing and placing an accurate DA shot in a timely manner is not that difficult. Some people just don't have the physical/mental ability or a real trainer but then why trust them in carrying or using any firearm?
One thing that always bugs me in this area is repitition of consistent trigger importance - if it was DA of 5lbs followed by SA of 3lbs you would never here of it. Likewise if someone is not prepping the first shot then pull length is different even on striker fired. When it comes down to it technically even your basic m16 or m4 doesn't even behave the same on each and every trigger pull. As far as mastering two trigger pulls - master how to pull the DA trigger quickly and accurately and the SA just follows. Only thing extra you master is different rhythm same with all.
Yep and military burst triggers suck as well. You can learn to deal with any system that is true but you will always shoot better with a design that does not handicap the shooter.
Pat
jerrysimons
09-06-13, 10:32
Shit happens. Simply admonishing people to be perfect is easy to do, but it just isn't reality.
If you keep your booger hooks out of the trigger guard you will be ok.
In the real world you default to your level of training.
I respect Greg's opinion but I don't agree.
Pat
What is the disagreement again?
Alaskapopo
09-06-13, 10:57
What is the disagreement again?
Well if I am not mistaken Greg feels you are safer with a gun with a longer trigger pull. I feel you are only as safe as the shooter and a longer trigger pull does nothing to make you more or less safe.
Pat
More ND's have been logged in police hands with revolvers than any other weapon.
I've heard this before, but wasn't this due to police cocking their revolvers to SA, which would give them a significantly lighter and shorter trigger than a Glock? I've heard that a lot of police agencies specified to manufacturers that they take the SA trigger out of the design before adopting the pistols.
Or so I've heard.
If I could shoot a pistol with a pull weight of 20lbs as well as I could shoot a pistol with a pull weight of 5lbs, I'd choose the 20lb trigger. Why not? But I can't, so I stick with the pistol with the 5lb trigger.
I think the longer and heavier the trigger is, the less prone someone is to negligently discharge it. I think it at least plays a part in the equation, however small a part it may be. I wouldn't be comfortable being around a trained person handling a 1911 with a 1lb trigger with the safety off in a situation where the adrenalin is flowing.
There is no question that a gun with a heavier trigger is generally more difficult to master. No reason to argue about that because everybody knows target triggers a generally lighter than standard triggers for a reason.
Everybody also knows that for 100 years that there was no argument that a gun with a heavier trigger is more difficult to fire accidentally for the same reason it is harder to fire intentionally: it has a trigger that is physically harder to pull. As far as I can tell it wasn't until Karl Walter (of Glock, not Walther) came along and started selling Glocks to people that it ever occurred to anyone to claim that a gun with lighter trigger is just as safe (or indeed now maybe SAFER!) as one that has a heavier trigger. Of course, Gaston never intended that the Glock be carried be loaded except in emergencies so he at least had a colorable argument for omitting the manual safety from his gun (but note, he still left the absurd trigger inside a trigger as a sort of vestigial "safety device.") So they came up with the name "Safe Action" to address the problem. Much like the "Smart" car, which everyone knows is stupid, they subverted your expectations by claiming a flaw as a feature--a genius marketing move. So now, an automatic pistol with a 5 pound trigger, which normally would be secured by at least one manual safety, was now safteyless for your safety. Of course, early adopters like DC and NY had a crapload of accidental discharges which Glock's legal department chalked up to poor training. OK. Of course, they came up with much heavier triggers "just in case." And for some reason they still don't recommend their lighter connectors for duty (I guess they just want people to be poor shots?).
It is easy to guess why Glock didn't deliver these guns with heavier triggers: no one would have bought them. In the 80s, you could get an H&K P7, SIG 226, S&W, BHP or 1911--all of which had pretty decent Single Action triggers in the 5 pound range. If Glock showed up with a 9 pound trigger it would be on the scrap heap with all the rest of the DAO pistols of that era.
Anyway, I have and love my M&P and G19 (both of which have factory triggers). Great pistols. VERY easy to shoot pistols--at the expense of safety. A compromise I am willing to make. But I absolutely reject the idea that they are as safe or safer than Glocks with NY triggers or HK's with LEM triggers. A heavier trigger makes the gun less prone to mishap. Be it accidental trigger contact from a finger (train all you want, it will happen) or some external object. Shit happens. Simply admonishing people to be perfect is easy to do, but it just isn't reality.Exceedingly well said. You've laid things out as "plain as rat turds in a sugar bowl" !!
Alaskapopo
09-06-13, 12:03
I've heard this before, but wasn't this due to police cocking their revolvers to SA, which would give them a significantly lighter and shorter trigger than a Glock? I've heard that a lot of police agencies specified to manufacturers that they take the SA trigger out of the design before adopting the pistols.
Or so I've heard.
If I could shoot a pistol with a pull weight of 20lbs as well as I could shoot a pistol with a pull weight of 5lbs, I'd choose the 20lb trigger. Why not? But I can't, so I stick with the pistol with the 5lb trigger.
I think the longer and heavier the trigger is, the less prone someone is to negligently discharge it. I think it at least plays a part in the equation, however small a part it may be. I wouldn't be comfortable being around a trained person handling a 1911 with a 1lb trigger with the safety off in a situation where the adrenalin is flowing.
The reality is you can not shoot a gun with a heavier trigger as fast or as well as one with a lighter pull. If you could sniper rifles would come with DAO pulls. Another reality is that if you keep the finger off the trigger the gun will not fire. New York Triggers on Glocks are an abomination designed by people who don't shoot trying to compensate for a training issue with a mechanical device that has made hitting the threat more difficult. This in turn endangers the officers lives who have been forced to use them and the people on the street in the general area of where shootings take place because these triggers directly correlate to poor hit ratios.
Here is an embarrassing video of me tripping over a prop during a match. The gun was loaded and the safety was off. The trigger on this gun is less than 2 pounds. Despite falling on my face the gun did not fire. You know why? Because my finger was off the trigger as I was trained. Had it been on the trigger and the gun been a DA revolver it would have fired not because of the gun but rather because of the shooter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jj4mK_Mc5o
I understand peoples inate fear of guns even as gun owners. Back when I first bought a pistol which was a Sig 229 in 40 sw right after they hit the market. I was afraid to load the chamber at first. But over time I realized that the gun was not going to fire all by itself. I got training and I became comfortable with the gun. Time moved on and I dumped the DA SA design in time once I realized they they were a handicap to good shooting. I have seen my share of ND's both in competition and once in a LEO sniper training. In all cases the shooters were less experienced and had their finger on the trigger when it should not have been. If you want to prevent or lessen the chance of ND's the best course of action is to address the persons training rather than making their gun harder to shoot.
Pat
DanjojoUSMC
09-06-13, 12:18
Hiring people who don't have what it takes physically/mentally and then giving them poor and infrequent training that doesn't develop them properly effects hit ratios more in my opinion. All about roster numbers and money.
Agencies/departments who report over 50% misses are not all using DAO 8lbs+ triggers.
Well said, Alaskapopo.
Every ND that I'm personally aware of or seen, the trigger was intentionally pulled on an "unloaded" gun or because of a "startle" response.
In all of the cases, it wouldn't have mattered if the trigger weight was 4lbs or 10lbs.
The safer/heavier triggers are not safer...they're just harder to shoot well.
Alaskapopo
09-06-13, 12:23
Hiring people who don't have what it takes physically/mentally and then giving them poor and infrequent training that doesn't develop them properly effects hit ratios more in my opinion. All about roster numbers and money.
Agencies/departments who report over 50% misses are not all using DAO 8lbs+ triggers.
That is the problem. You're not going to make things better by giving them a gun that is even harder to hit with. Spend the money on more frequent training and improve your hiring standards if you getting people who don't have what it takes. In Alaska we can brag about a fairly good hit ratio (90% at one time think its down to the low 80% range now) in LEO shootings. The reason being is more of our cops are shooters and the training up here while a bit dated is pretty good.
That said if you feel more confident carrying a DA SA gun go for it. Perception can be as powerful as reality and I would not want anyone walking around with a gun they are afraid of. But make no mistake if your trying to reduce the chance of ND's training is the cure not throwing different equipment at the issue.
Pat
kantstudien
09-06-13, 13:20
Yes, a more trained person is less likely to have an ND with a light trigger than a less trained one.
How heavy of a trigger would you have needed to prevent a ND in this example?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aSJgcpqePk
Alaskapopo
09-06-13, 13:32
How heavy of a trigger would you have needed to prevent a ND in this example?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aSJgcpqePk
I was looking for that video earlier that was a DA SA Beretta she was using in the DA mode. You can't fix stupid with gadgets.
Pat
jerrysimons
09-06-13, 13:36
Well if I am not mistaken Greg feels you are safer with a gun with a longer trigger pull. I feel you are only as safe as the shooter and a longer trigger pull does nothing to make you more or less safe.
Pat
Sounded like two sides of the same coin. But as I understand what you are saying better, the argument for heavier pull mitigating NDs breaks down because the shooter who NDs presses the trigger with the same force as an intentional fire (startle response and false unloaded situations at least). A heavier pull wouldn't matter anyway, unless it is so heavy you could not press the trigger intentionally. Any way you slice it it comes down to a training issue; keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire!
About sum it up?
Alaskapopo
09-06-13, 13:42
Sounded like two sides of the same coin. But as I understand what you are saying better, the argument for heavier pull mitigating NDs breaks down because the shooter who NDs presses the trigger with the same force as an intentional fire (startle response and false unloaded situations at least). A heavier pull wouldn't matter anyway, unless it is so heavy you could not press the trigger intentionally. Any way you slice it it comes down to a training issue; keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire!
About sum it up?
Yes
Pat
If all triggers on all firearms from now on were 1lb triggers, and all people were just as well trained as they are now, do you not believe that there would be a higher amount of NDs?
It is a training issue. I agree. But I do think that the length and weight of the trigger pull does matter. Even if just a little. What I disagree with, is that it makes absolutely no difference at all.
By the way, the pistol I carry has no DA pull or manual safety, and the pull weight is around 5lbs.
Plumber237
09-06-13, 13:53
Hiring people who don't have what it takes physically/mentally and then giving them poor and infrequent training that doesn't develop them properly effects hit ratios more in my opinion. All about roster numbers and money.
Agencies/departments who report over 50% misses are not all using DAO 8lbs+ triggers.
I agree 100%, this is one quote that should be carved into every police department, federal agency, and military recruiting office...especially the ones that try to fix training issues with bullshit equipment (NY Glock trigger :suicide2:)
Alaskapopo
09-06-13, 13:58
If all triggers on all firearms from now on were 1lb triggers, and all people were just as well trained as they are now, do you not believe that there would be a higher amount of NDs?
It is a training issue. I agree. But I do think that the length and weight of the trigger pull does matter. Even if just a little. What I disagree with, is that it makes absolutely no difference at all.
By the way, the pistol I carry has no DA pull or manual safety, and the pull weight is around 5lbs.
No I don't for reasons I outlined earlier. Now granted you don't want the trigger so light the gun will fire when you bump on something.
Pat
Well now this has gone down into an argument about only ND or AD which isn't the only merit to discuss when talking about DA/SA and striker fired guns but we can keep beating it to death if we want.
Let me say I have no real strong issue with a striker fired gun and would carry one without any regrets but I am able to actually take a step back and look at them from an objective point of view and actually weigh the pro's and con's of the system(That's right...their are cons...hard to believe).
For some reason all the rules that apply to all other firearms go out the window when people talk about striker fired guns. Rifles, shotguns and all other pistols are in one category and then we've created this special category for striker fired guns. And this all changed with the Glock. The Luger was striker fired gun over 110 years ago..they aren't new at all yet people just decided to create this mystical category of firearms once Glock convinced everyone that putting a little nub on the trigger made a manual safety null and void.
Just the other week I saw a user on line talking about how his PPQ had a 4.5 lb trigger out of the box. That's going to run lighter than a 1911 trigger from a typical out of the box gun and lighter than most SA triggers on guns from SIG, Beretta, CZ, etc.
Would you carry a 1911 cocked and unlocked? Or a 92FS with the hammer cocked? That's basically what your looking at with that PPQ albeit a slightly different style trigger. The double standard from the striker fired crowd is ridiculous at times. I've heard the excuse that the length of pull is different but then your talking out of both ends on the one hand saying that "it doesn't matter what kind of trigger it is it's about training" and then on the other end being an apologist and saying that "the length of pull is longer so its OK to be that light" as if that "makes it safe".
Either way though I guess it is training. Training to run an LEM or a DA/SA or training to run a striker fired gun. Your right, its all about training.
Alaskapopo
09-06-13, 14:53
Well now this has gone down into an argument about only ND or AD which isn't the only merit to discuss when talking about DA/SA and striker fired guns but we can keep beating it to death if we want.
Let me say I have no real strong issue with a striker fired gun and would carry one without any regrets but I am able to actually take a step back and look at them from an objective point of view and actually weigh the pro's and con's of the system(That's right...their are cons...hard to believe).
For some reason all the rules that apply to all other firearms go out the window when people talk about striker fired guns. Rifles, shotguns and all other pistols are in one category and then we've created this special category for striker fired guns. And this all changed with the Glock. The Luger was striker fired gun over 110 years ago..they aren't new at all yet people just decided to create this mystical category of firearms once Glock convinced everyone that putting a little nub on the trigger made a manual safety null and void.
Just the other week I saw a user on line talking about how his PPQ had a 4.5 lb trigger out of the box. That's going to run lighter than a 1911 trigger from a typical out of the box gun and lighter than most SA triggers on guns from SIG, Beretta, CZ, etc.
Would you carry a 1911 cocked and unlocked? Or a 92FS with the hammer cocked? That's basically what your looking at with that PPQ albeit a slightly different style trigger. The double standard from the striker fired crowd is ridiculous at times. I've heard the excuse that the length of pull is different but then your talking out of both ends on the one hand saying that "it doesn't matter what kind of trigger it is it's about training" and then on the other end being an apologist and saying that "the length of pull is longer so its OK to be that light" as if that "makes it safe".
Either way though I guess it is training. Training to run an LEM or a DA/SA or training to run a striker fired gun. Your right, its all about training.
The thing is you will never shoot a DA SA as well as you can a short trigger firearm given equal time on both systems.
DreadPirateMoyer
09-06-13, 14:59
The thing is you will never shoot a DA SA as well as you can a short trigger firearm given equal time on both systems.
Cocked and locked?
I know that since I have started shooting my PPS and M40 that I'm much more aware of what is going on with my trigger finger and anything that may get near the trigger during manipulation. When holstering my PPS I place my thumb over the cocking indicator. In a way the "lighter" trigger has made me ramp up the awareness. To me the reward for having to pay more attention is a better quality first shot.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-06-13, 19:53
"kantstudien "
I think a nice VP70 would do for her. 18 pounds of fury and about an inch of take-up.
It is absurd to use her as an example of why triggers should be lighter. All light triggers do is increase the chance of incidents like this. Again, even Glock, the modern originator of the "Safe" action does not recommend using their target connector in a duty gun. Why wouldn't they want you to be safer? Shouldn't we all sue them for shipping their guns with the more dangerous 5.5 connector when they have the safer 3.5 available?
Easier to shoot intentionally, easier to shoot unintentionally. There is a reason why you can carry a S&W 340 in your jacket pocket without a holster. It is the same reason why it would be stupid to carry a Glock 26 in your pocket without a holster. And a Glock with a 3.5 connector would be even worse.
Again, I agree that a perfect person who lives in a perfect world in perfect conditions would be just as safe with a 5.5 pound trigger as a 12 pound trigger. But, barring this sort of Glock perfection, the heavier trigger will be more resistant to all types of discharge.
Alaskapopo
09-06-13, 20:25
"kantstudien "
I think a nice VP70 would do for her. 18 pounds of fury and about an inch of take-up.
It is absurd to use her as an example of why triggers should be lighter. All light triggers do is increase the chance of incidents like this. Again, even Glock, the modern originator of the "Safe" action does not recommend using their target connector in a duty gun. Why wouldn't they want you to be safer? Shouldn't we all sue them for shipping their guns with the more dangerous 5.5 connector when they have the safer 3.5 available?
Easier to shoot intentionally, easier to shoot unintentionally. There is a reason why you can carry a S&W 340 in your jacket pocket without a holster. It is the same reason why it would be stupid to carry a Glock 26 in your pocket without a holster. And a Glock with a 3.5 connector would be even worse.
Again, I agree that a perfect person who lives in a perfect world in perfect conditions would be just as safe with a 5.5 pound trigger as a 12 pound trigger. But, barring this sort of Glock perfection, the heavier trigger will be more resistant to all types of discharge.
Her video shows however that a poorly trained person is dangerous no matter what type of gun or trigger they have. On pocket carry I agree I would not do that with out a pocket holster for a Glock but then I only use revolvers in that role. The reason Glock does not want to recommend a 3.5 pound pull for duty is to make it attorney proof its not based on any research or experience. I use a 4 pound Skimmer trigger in my Glock. I am more worried about being able to connect bullets with the threat than I am worried about a ND.
Pat
The thing is you will never shoot a DA SA as well as you can a short trigger firearm given equal time on both systems.
That's absolutely and patently false. You will not shoot DA/SA as well as easier triggers given equally limited time on both. Given sufficient time with both triggers to overcome an slower initial learning curve with DA/SA and such, you can shoot them as well or better than strikers. There is an abundance of examples across different skill levels. It is all about priorities, Pat.
Alaskapopo
09-06-13, 23:27
That's absolutely and patently false. You will not shoot DA/SA as well as easier triggers given equally limited time on both. Given sufficient time with both triggers to overcome an slower initial learning curve with DA/SA and such, you can shoot them as well or better than strikers. There is an abundance of examples across different skill levels. It is all about priorities, Pat.
Sorry my experience as a firearms instructor and competitive shooter differs. The harder trigger will always slow down your first shot. The better you get the difference will be less noticeable especially at close range but the difference will still be there. Its simple physics a 10 pound pull with longer travel takes more time to keep aligned while your pulling the trigger especially on a smaller target or a more distant target. My priority when shooting a gun is to hit what I am aiming at as fast as possible and I don't want to handicap myself. That is what guns were designed for hitting stuff. Missing is not a good thing and neither is being slow.
Pat
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-06-13, 23:33
Its simple physics a 10 pound pull with longer travel takes more time to keep aligned while your pulling the trigger especially
Hey now! As we know, there is no difference between a 4 pound trigger and a 10 pound trigger.:dance3:
While personal preference, performance, and experience are the most important factor, examine the trigger systems from a purely mechanical standpoint. On the first trigger pull, which is more efficient, striker or DA? Measure trigger pull weight as well as distance the trigger has to be manipulated to fire the pistol. Removing the human factor allows one to see which is truly more "mechanically efficient". The less pull weight and less travel of the trigger means less margin for error on the shooter's part. I know, training issue. But.....all other things equal.
Alaskapopo
09-06-13, 23:38
Well I will leave it at this pick the gun you feel most comfortable with and train hard with it because your life may well depend on it some day.
Pat
Sorry my experience as a firearms instructor and competitive shooter differs. The harder trigger will always slow down your first shot. The better you get the difference will be less noticeable especially at close range but the difference will still be there. Its simple physics a 10 pound pull with longer travel takes more time to keep aligned while your pulling the trigger especially on a smaller target or a more distant target. My priority when shooting a gun is to hit what I am aiming at as fast as possible and I don't want to handicap myself. That is what guns were designed for hitting stuff. Missing is not a good thing and neither is being slow.
Pat
Well, my experience as a shooter, competitive and otherwise, differs from yours. There are techniques to negotiate long and heavier trigger pull during presentation, not after. My first shot with LEM - admittedly, not heavy but long - are now faster than with Glock. I am now working with DA/SA gun, and, while it is harder, I can see it coming.
Also, physics cuts both ways. Very few situations include one shot. With DA/SA getting through first shot gives you access to SA trigger, which has great reset and is lighter than anything that can be safely put into a carry striker pistol.
As I said, there is abundance of examples. A Production trophy in USPSA Nationals was taken home with DA/SA gun with 7 lbs DA pull, over all Glocks etc. Two years in a row. There is a ton of competition guys running Berettas, CZs and Tanfos with great results. Michigan state uspsa title in prod was just won with a Beretta. A good acquaintance just won a state IDPA title in SSP with a service Sig. Another good buddy has scored advanced at Rogers with both Glock and Sig. Etc, etc.
You want to cut to the lowest denominator of limited training time, or you wanna get results sooner - fine, strikers are great, I have a few. You wanna ignore a boatload of evidence that dedicated shooters can shoot da/sa guns same or better than strikers - fine with me, it's your credibility, not mine.
Alaskapopo
09-07-13, 00:50
Well, my experience as a shooter, competitive and otherwise, differs from yours. There are techniques to negotiate long and heavier trigger pull during presentation, not after. My first shot with LEM - admittedly, not heavy but long - are now faster than with Glock. I am now working with DA/SA gun, and, while it is harder, I can see it coming.
Also, physics cuts both ways. Very few situations include one shot. With DA/SA getting through first shot gives you access to SA trigger, which has great reset and is lighter than anything that can be safely put into a carry striker pistol.
As I said, there is abundance of examples. A Production trophy in USPSA Nationals was taken home with DA/SA gun with 7 lbs DA pull, over all Glocks etc. Two years in a row. There is a ton of competition guys running Berettas, CZs and Tanfos with great results. Michigan state uspsa title in prod was just won with a Beretta. A good acquaintance just won a state IDPA title in SSP with a service Sig. Another good buddy has scored advanced at Rogers with both Glock and Sig. Etc, etc.
You want to cut to the lowest denominator of limited training time, or you wanna get results sooner - fine, strikers are great, I have a few. You wanna ignore a boatload of evidence that dedicated shooters can shoot da/sa guns same or better than strikers - fine with me, it's your credibility, not mine.
I took production this year at a state steel match with my Glock 17. Its the Indian not the bow. LIke you admitted its harder to learn the DA SA. Also the DA SA's that are used in production class have very light DA pulls as light as 7 pounds. Also I prefer a good Glock tuned trigger to any DA SA gun's second pull because of the snappier reset. If that were available on stock Sigs and HK's I would not mind DA SA so bad. With respect I am not worried about my credibility in the shooting sports as I hold my own. We are going to have to agree to disagree and carry what we each like. I feel I have made a strong argument for my case.
Pat
Sorry my experience as a firearms instructor and competitive shooter differs. The harder trigger will always slow down your first shot. The better you get the difference will be less noticeable especially at close range but the difference will still be there. Its simple physics a 10 pound pull with longer travel takes more time to keep aligned while your pulling the trigger especially on a smaller target or a more distant target. My priority when shooting a gun is to hit what I am aiming at as fast as possible and I don't want to handicap myself. That is what guns were designed for hitting stuff. Missing is not a good thing and neither is being slow.
Pat
Maybe if you stage the trigger. The trick to the DA pull is to pull it through in one fast motion. People suck at DA because they stage it and flinch. If you really think the the hundredth of a second longer it takes to travel with the first DA/SA shot is going to mean life or death, fine, can't be helped.
I believe a guy used the Beretta to win a National competition a few years ago. Must have slowed him down quite a bit. Yes I'm aware my example is a sample size of one and has variables in it. Still won the comp.
Alaskapopo
09-07-13, 01:37
Maybe if you stage the trigger. The trick to the DA pull is to pull it through in one fast motion. People suck at DA because they stage it and flinch. If you really think the the hundredth of a second longer it takes to travel with the first DA/SA shot is going to mean life or death, fine, can't be helped.
I believe a guy used the Beretta to win a National competition a few years ago. Must have slowed him down quite a bit. Yes I'm aware my example is a sample size of one and has variables in it. Still won the comp.
Staging vs pull straight through depends on training and the trigger you have. I pull straight through. That said its still longer because you have greater distance to go and while your going that distance they gun is wandering. Life and death is often measured in who hits who first which can be hundredths of a second. I want every edge I can get in a life and death situation.
Pat
I feel I have made a strong argument for my case.
Pat
Pat, the problem I am having with is that you're sticking same one argument into two different discussions.
That shorter/lighter triggers are easier to learn, one gets results faster, and you prefer them I am not arguing with. It would be a hypocrisy as I myself started on guns with even easier triggers, just for that reason. Tons of people feel that way, Glocks own IDPA, I have friends who shoot Glocks better than I ever will shoot any gun etc.
However, when you say that one will never shoot DA/SA better than Glock, it is entirely different from the above argument. It is also entirely false. No amount of theoretical musings how long pull is going to screw you up, how two trigger weights are so bad, or how you don't like reset properties will undo the fact that lots and lots of people shoot these guns marvelously in competition and on the line of duty.
PatrioticDisorder
09-07-13, 10:30
I took production this year at a state steel match with my Glock 17. Its the Indian not the bow. LIke you admitted its harder to learn the DA SA. Also the DA SA's that are used in production class have very light DA pulls as light as 7 pounds. Also I prefer a good Glock tuned trigger to any DA SA gun's second pull because of the snappier reset. If that were available on stock Sigs and HK's I would not mind DA SA so bad. With respect I am not worried about my credibility in the shooting sports as I hold my own. We are going to have to agree to disagree and carry what we each like. I feel I have made a strong argument for my case.
Pat
I've come to the conclusion the DA/SA guys are members of a cult, telling them striker fired guns are easier to shoot more quickly/accurately is blasphemy that goes against their dogma, you won't get anywhere. Anyone who's not part of this cult and shot both looking at the results objectively understands striker fired is more efficient.
I've come to the conclusion the DA/SA guys are members of a cult, telling them striker fired guns are easier to shoot more quickly/accurately is blasphemy that goes against their dogma, you won't get anywhere. Anyone who's not part of this cult and shot both looking at the results objectively understands striker fired is more efficient.
True but for me I just cannot,ever,seem to shoot a striker fired gun for shit if you want accuracy,best I can do is maybe two inches but usually get a three inch splatter.
I may try again someday but I have noticed that fact to be fairly true.
With a DA if the first shot goes with the long pull I can get it into about a four inch circle of the rest depending on what the DA pull is like example my M9 is good so I can do well,a Sig 2022 I had felt like a staple gun and I had hell with the first shot every time.
I've come to the conclusion the DA/SA guys are members of a cult, telling them striker fired guns are easier to shoot more quickly/accurately is blasphemy that goes against their dogma, you won't get anywhere. Anyone who's not part of this cult and shot both looking at the results objectively understands striker fired is more efficient.
Sure, DA/SA guys are emotionally invested in their pretty guns, never spent any time behind strikers, and are incapable of objectively score targets or look at timers.
Seriously?
DanjojoUSMC
09-07-13, 12:29
The time difference between pull a DA first shot vs striker fired first shot will be smaller than the variance in your draw and presentation.
In real life speed naturally goes up and accuracy naturally goes down - trying to go as fast as you can with acceptable accuracy isn't as clever or wise for training as being as accurate as you can with a quickness. Unless the target is right on top of you how smart is it to be working the trigger as quickly as physically possible? Trigger control loses meaning and function.
There is a line people cross when they want to be as sloppy as possible and still manage semi-decent accuracy while fundamentals are thrown aside. Cross the line and from then on anything over 4 or 5lbs is scary.
Personally I will shoot the striker fired or SA first shot no faster because of control and accuracy. If talking about extremely close range then yes Glock, PPQ, etc. will be a .001-.005 quicker hopefully still not too quick.
Alaskapopo
09-07-13, 12:39
The time difference between pull a DA first shot vs striker fired first shot will be smaller than the variance in your draw and presentation.
In real life speed naturally goes up and accuracy naturally goes down - trying to go as fast as you can with acceptable accuracy isn't as clever or wise for training as being as accurate as you can with a quickness. Unless the target is right on top of you how smart is it to be working the trigger as quickly as physically possible? Trigger control loses meaning and function.
There is a line people cross when they want to be as sloppy as possible and still manage semi-decent accuracy while fundamentals are thrown aside. Cross the line and from then on anything over 4 or 5lbs is scary.
Personally I will shoot the striker fired or SA first shot no faster because of control and accuracy. If talking about extremely close range then yes Glock, PPQ, etc. will be a .001-.005 quicker hopefully still not too quick.
In training you should work on both speed and accuracy. One of the things I do is start slow work on several sets going as slow as you have to to hit perfect. Then pick up the pace until you start missing then bring it back down. Its like weight lifting you have to go until failure. If you always practice slow you will remain slow.
Pat
I've come to the conclusion the striker fired guys are members of a cult, telling them striker fired guns aren't easier to shoot more quickly/accurately than every other type of firearm, for every shooter, is blasphemy that goes against their dogma; you won't get anywhere. Anyone who's not part of this cult and shot multiple firearms types, looking at the results objectively, understands that mileage may vary.
Fixed that for you. ;)
FWIW, I'm a striker guy myself, but I'd never argue that my choice is best for everyone.
For anyone interested here is an article written by Ernest Langdon who was/is one of the best competitive shooters to have used a DA/SA pistol.
I'm done arguing the merits or pro's vs. con's just wanted to offer this up for those who might be interested.
Also as an FYI he has won major IDPA national trophies using striker fired, DA/SA and single action only so he is a true pistol shooter and doesn't really on any one system to "shoot fast and accurate" as a crutch as many shooters do.
Fear Not, The Double Action Shot!
by Ernest Langdon
The traditional double action pistol, long feared by the competitive shooter, is quickly becoming a force to be reckoned with in some types of competitive pistol shooting. With the growing popularity of IDPA and Production Class in IPSC, the double action pistol is becoming a popular option for competitive shooters around the globe.
But, there has long been a stigma associated with the double action pistol. It has seen very little action in mainstream competition. When you ask shooters why they don’t shoot a double action in competition there are two main reasons that come up. First, it is too hard or too slow to shoot a double action first shot. Second, they don’t like having two different trigger pulls. Lets focus on the first reason for now, the dreaded double action first shot.
To develop speed and accuracy with the double action trigger we need to start with accuracy. The speed will mean nothing if you don’t hit the target. Start by shooting groups in double action only. Your group size and the location of the groups should be the same as your single action groups; that’s the goal anyway. Some shooters will find that with proper technique they can shoot a tighter group in double action than in single action.
The key to double action accuracy is keeping the trigger moving. Don’t try and stage the trigger to the point right before the hammer drops. This is a bad habit and will cause what is often called “Now Syndrome!” This is when the shooter stages or preps the trigger to the point right before it is going to break, then cleans up the sight picture so it is perfect and tries to make the shot break “NOW.” The “Now Syndrome” almost always causes the sights and the shot to move off the intended target. Keep the sights in your “aiming area” and keep the trigger moving. (Obviously, if the sights move way off or out of your aiming area, stop pulling the trigger) Try and think of the trigger pull as a “trigger stroke,” and pull through with one smooth stroke of the trigger.
At first, shoot at a close target that is fairly large, maybe seven or ten yards and try for a group. As your groups get smaller, move the target back. Don’t be afraid to shoot groups at fifty yards or more. It can’t hurt.
Once you’re confident with your ability to make an accurate double action shot, pick up the pace. Start working on the time it takes to “pull through” the double action trigger stroke. Remember, speed means nothing if you miss the target.
The next step is to start working back to the holster. That’s right, work back to the holster, not from the holster. The next thing to work on is the presentation of the pistol to the target. Start from what is normally called the ready position. This is the point in the draw where the hands come together, just off center to the strong side at the upper part of your abdomen. At this point the pistol should be pointed at the target and the trigger finger is still off the trigger. From this point forward is where you start to gain speed with the double action first shot. From this ready position, every effort should be made to drive the pistol directly to the target. Imagine there is a laser coming out of the barrel and try and put that laser on the target and keep it there until that first shot breaks. (If you have a laser available it can be a great training tool).
As the pistol starts to move forward you should be able to pick up the position of the muzzle in your peripheral vision. As soon as you can see that the muzzle is on target, start pulling the trigger. This is where the speed of the first shot comes from. As the pistol goes out, the trigger comes back. Now it becomes a timing issue. As the pistol goes forward and comes up to your line of sight, you are trying to pull the trigger so that the hammer falls just as you clean up the sight picture. The last one to two inches of the presentation the sights should be almost perfect so if the shot breaks a little early you’re still going to hit the target. This is really no different than what most top shooters do with a single action pistol. They prep the trigger on the way out to the target and try and break the shot just as they clean up the sight picture.
With practice you will find that you can be very aggressive on close targets. Because you can have a lot of deviation in your sight alignment on close targets, you can break the shot very early in the draw stroke with all the accuracy that you need.
Once you feel comfortable with working from the ready position you can start working from the holster. Just like the double action trigger pull, think of the draw as a smooth stroke. Now all you have to do is combine the “draw stroke” with the “trigger stroke” and you will be nailing sub one-second draws in no time.
Once you master the double action first shot you will find you can shoot the traditional double action pistol with a great deal of speed and accuracy. It’s up to you, so get out there and start shooting.
The time difference between pull a DA first shot vs striker fired first shot will be smaller than the variance in your draw and presentation.
Oh my, truth and not hyperbole! Yes, absolutely......
I OWN striker fired pistols so I don't see where the DA/SA cult comes in. Striker only shooters appear to be more cultist in nature.
However, I can't believe this thread isn't locked yet.
High Tower
09-07-13, 17:17
I've come to the conclusion the DA/SA guys are members of a cult, telling them striker fired guns are easier to shoot more quickly/accurately is blasphemy that goes against their dogma, you won't get anywhere. Anyone who's not part of this cult and shot both looking at the results objectively understands striker fired is more efficient.
I've always thought of the striker only guys as a cult.
I think what it all boils down to is the reason for purchasing and owning a firearm. If you are after one operating system (i.e. Glock or S&W) then it makes sense. I enjoy firearms - the history, the designs, craftsmenship, etc. Thusly I would be excluding so many different pistols if I were to stick to Glocks or M&P's only. There are zero striker guns out there that I can appreciate. I do not enjoy their triggers, I do not enjoy having my hands ripped up by Glocks, and the overall appearance bores me. Notice how I said "I". Instead of all of us firing broadsides at each other about this, how about we realize that people have different preferences. Just because someone prefers DA/SA doesn't mean they have mental difficiencies. It just means that they like them better. And has been proven in countless competitions, it isn't the action style that makes the difference.
Alaskapopo
09-07-13, 18:03
I've always thought of the striker only guys as a cult.
I think what it all boils down to is the reason for purchasing and owning a firearm. If you are after one operating system (i.e. Glock or S&W) then it makes sense. I enjoy firearms - the history, the designs, craftsmenship, etc. Thusly I would be excluding so many different pistols if I were to stick to Glocks or M&P's only. There are zero striker guns out there that I can appreciate. I do not enjoy their triggers, I do not enjoy having my hands ripped up by Glocks, and the overall appearance bores me. Notice how I said "I". Instead of all of us firing broadsides at each other about this, how about we realize that people have different preferences. Just because someone prefers DA/SA doesn't mean they have mental difficiencies. It just means that they like them better. And has been proven in countless competitions, it isn't the action style that makes the difference.
Some of us view guns in a functional point of view over a aesthetic one. If you buy a gun because it looks nice thats fine. But I buy them because I want the best tool for the job.
Pat
High Tower
09-07-13, 18:32
Some of us view guns in a functional point of view over a aesthetic one. If you buy a gun because it looks nice thats fine. But I buy them because I want the best tool for the job.
Pat
I understand that and believe everyone should have a few that meet that category. However, there are models that meet both criteria. For me they are not striker guns. For you they might be. That's all I'm trying to say. All this bickering is a bit silly and helps no one.
Gutshot John
09-07-13, 20:02
This whole thread is a testament as to how the internet has totally screwed up the firearms industry.
Has Duty pistol quality gone backwards?
No, it's gone forward.
Alaskapopo
09-07-13, 23:01
This whole thread is a testament as to how the internet has totally screwed up the firearms industry.
I think its valuable because you can come to a place like this and read honest reviews on actual guns. Gun magazines never had anything bad to say about anything.
Pat
Alaskapopo
09-07-13, 23:02
I understand that and believe everyone should have a few that meet that category. However, there are models that meet both criteria. For me they are not striker guns. For you they might be. That's all I'm trying to say. All this bickering is a bit silly and helps no one.
What ever makes you happy. As I said before perception is powerful and if you feel more confident with your choice of a DA SA gun then by all means carry it. Also I am not so much a fan of strikers as I am of shorter crisp triggers. There are a lot of DA SA guns that are pretty nice once you make them cocked and locked like the Sig X5 series.
Pat
Gutshot John
09-07-13, 23:16
I think its valuable because you can come to a place like this and read honest reviews on actual guns.
Usually by people who can't shoot...
There is no one-size-fits-all firearm, there is no perfect firearm, what works well for one, does not work well for others.
People need to start formulating their own opinions, and read anything on the internet with extreme skepticism.
Otherwise you get threads like this nonsense.
Alaskapopo
09-08-13, 05:23
Usually by people who can't shoot...
There is no one-size-fits-all firearm, there is no perfect firearm, what works well for one, does not work well for others.
People need to start formulating their own opinions, and read anything on the internet with extreme skepticism.
Otherwise you get threads like this nonsense.
Some forums are better than others but overall the information online can save you a lot of wasted time and money. You just need to filter through some crap to get to the good information.
Pat
Some forums are better than others but overall the information online can save you a lot of wasted time and money. You just need to filter through some crap to get to the good information.
Pat
Alternatively, the online info can cost you time on filtering crap and money on buying things that interwebs pronounce latest and greatest.
I only say this, Pat, to illustrate that there is always an opposing opinion that's not wrong. GJ is right, people need to learn to keep open minds, avoid dogmas, ignore theoretical blah-blah in favor of factual data whenever possible, and decide for themselves.
Over many decades, I've shot a wide variety of pistols.
Currently, my Gen 3 Glock 19 has a Glock OEM 3.5lb. trigger, Tru Glo sights, (tritium rear and fiber optic front) a Hogue Handall grip, and extended mag and slide releases. It's my EDC.
I have small hands and the extended releases make it a much more efficient pistol for me.
The 3.5 lb trigger is smooth and helps me with accuracy.
Compared to all the other handguns I've owned - this one suits me best.
Is quality going backwards?
No.
As time progresses it's getting better with the occasional hiccup, i.e. recalls.
Returning to the original question, one could argue that the quality of service pistols has gotten increasingly better over the past decade or so.
Using Glock as an example, the 90s saw multiple reports of inexplicable "kabooms" and slamfires, as well as rails shearing off. The 00s saw catastrophic guide rod failures and "phase 3 malfunctions," as well as multiple issues with .40 caliber models.
Nowadays we just have some folks who catch the occasional piece of ejected brass.
Sounds like progress to me. ;)
All joking aside, while my memory hasn't proven to be completely reliable, I *seem* to remember experiencing many more malfunctions back in the 80s than I do today. And I shoot a great deal more now than I did then.
Returning to the original question, one could argue that the quality of service pistols has gotten increasingly better over the past decade or so.
Using Glock as an example, the 90s saw multiple reports of inexplicable "kabooms" and slamfires, as well as rails shearing off. The 00s saw catastrophic guide rod failures and "phase 3 malfunctions," as well as multiple issues with .40 caliber models.
Nowadays we just have some folks who catch the occasional piece of ejected brass.
Sounds like progress to me. ;)
All joking aside, while my memory hasn't proven to be completely reliable, I *seem* to remember experiencing many more malfunctions back in the 80s than I do today. And I shoot a great deal more now than I did then.
Ammo has gotten better and more advanced to so while subject is in all probability a factor as well.
If only H&K they'd start making some polymer framed striker fired pistols
Very, very soon !
Staging vs pull straight through depends on training and the trigger you have. I pull straight through. That said its still longer because you have greater distance to go and while your going that distance they gun is wandering. Life and death is often measured in who hits who first which can be hundredths of a second. I want every edge I can get in a life and death situation.
Pat
Maybe that time matters in games, but I'd like to see an example of a DA pull getting someone killed where a striker wouldn't have.
Edit to add: I think it's a little ridiculous to assume that one system is inferior because you personally, are slower with it.
Alaskapopo
09-08-13, 21:07
Maybe that time matters in games, but I'd like to see an example of a DA pull getting someone killed where a striker wouldn't have.
Edit to add: I think it's a little ridiculous to assume that one system is inferior because you personally, are slower with it.
Time matters in gun fights as well. While there is no timer there is a bad guy trying to kill you. The sooner you hit him the better your chance of living. The first one to cut meat usually wins. Also its not just me who shoots shorter action trigger pulls faster (common sense would seem to apply but apparently its not so common) its pretty much everyone I have taught to shoot and also shot with.
Pat
Also its not just me who shoots shorter action trigger pulls faster (common sense would seem to apply but apparently its not so common) its pretty much everyone I have taught to shoot and also shot with.
Pat
I guess these guys below all missed the message on common sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea3CJ4ChKwg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f73jEe7Mzjw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl4tbMHF3xk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Alaskapopo
09-08-13, 21:43
I guess these guys below all missed the message on common sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea3CJ4ChKwg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f73jEe7Mzjw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl4tbMHF3xk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Yea they are doing well with a handicap lets see how much better they could do with a short trigger gun. Now do you want me to post videos of the 99.9% of the rest of the pros using 2011's and Glocks.
Pat
I am not following you, Pat, what handicap you're talking about. You know, nobody is forcing them to shoot those guns they shoot? And they have shot strikers too? So, perhaps it is by choice?
You're asking for a comparison - here it is, fresh from Todd's site http://pistol-training.com/archives/8491
Note it is a .45 long trigger compared to two short triggers 9.
You're missing a point again. I don't care what majority shoots, I care that those who choose to learn how to shoot long triggers do same or better than that 99.9% majority.
Alaskapopo
09-08-13, 22:14
I am not following you, Pat, what handicap you're talking about. You know, nobody is forcing them to shoot those guns they shoot? And they have shot strikers too? So, perhaps it is by choice?
You're asking for a comparison - here it is, fresh from Todd's site http://pistol-training.com/archives/8491
Note it is a .45 long trigger compared to two short triggers 9.
You're missing a point again. I don't care what majority shoots, I care that those who choose to learn how to shoot long triggers do same or better than that 99.9% majority.
You do know they are sponsored shooters right? So they shoot the guns their given. The majority of shooters shoot what works the best based on seeing who is winning.
According to the chart you provided he was faster on the draw with the 17 vs the HK45 (DA trigger handicap) But hey you shoot what you want I wish all my competition would shoot DA SA guns. That would get great! I like winning.
You do know they are sponsored shooters right? So they shoot the guns their given. The majority of shooters shoot what works the best based on seeing who is winning.
According to the chart you provided he was faster on the draw with the 17 vs the HK45 (DA trigger handicap) But hey you shoot what you want I wish all my competition would shoot DA SA guns. That would get great! I like winning.
You're wrong again.
Stoeger shot his own Beretta Elite II in this video, a gun that has been long discontinued. Beretta doesn't sponsor him, otherwise it'd be hard to explain why he just switched to a Tanfoglio. DA/SA, btw.
Ernest has long discontinued working for Beretta. He shot Carolina Cup with it because not long before it he had taught a .mil unit that used Berettas. So, naturally, he thought he'd use a gun like his students shot. He won the Cup, btw. Since then he moved to....HK P30.
I absolutely love how you noticed he was faster on first with G17 than HK45 by 0.14 sec in a context of a multi shot drill were one expect more arm tension with a 45. But even more so I love how you chose not to mention the fact that he was numerically faster with HK45 than with a gun that has shortest and lightest trigger of them all - a 1911.
Keep posting, it is getting to be fun.
The most rigorous pistol sport, re pistol shooting.
Free pistol. .22 short? At .50m I think. the .22 short. The triggers, in weight? You feel you could blow on the trigger, and it would go off.
I never did shoot that sport. I shot CF S&W .32 these were revolver rimmed cartridges, and .22LR, by rule they had to be 3lb? I believe, not shot that sport for years. But trust me, the triggers were crisp, light, incredible reset.
Moving now to the Glock19 4th gen 9mm pistols. Perfect grip surface, and size, TruGlo fiber optic sights, 3.5 connector, extended slide release (Glock factory one) pistol in a holster, trigger hidden from view, and touch.
The reality of shooting humans, with pistol calibers', more is better, to deliver more rounds, to the upper center of the torso, a favorite hit area when speed and movement come in to play. The trigger, hugely important, second, the recoil energy, to allow these hits to take place in rapid succession.
Easier with the lighter recoil response of the 9mm.
All shootings are not at 10ft! What would you sooner take a shot at an elbow, sticking out from behind a dumpster with, at 25m, my trigger, or a heaver one, any system?
You want to shoot at a threat, from the draw? Then press the trigger, not yet? Keep your finger on the slide.
Alaskapopo
09-08-13, 22:44
You're wrong again.
Stoeger shot his own Beretta Elite II in this video, a gun that has been long discontinued. Beretta doesn't sponsor him, otherwise it'd be hard to explain why he just switched to a Tanfoglio. DA/SA, btw.
Ernest has long discontinued working for Beretta. He shot Carolina Cup with it because not long before it he had taught a .mil unit that used Berettas. So, naturally, he thought he'd use a gun like his students shot. He won the Cup, btw. Since then he moved to....HK P30.
I absolutely love how you noticed he was faster on first with G17 than HK45 by 0.14 sec in a context of a multi shot drill were one expect more arm tension with a 45. But even more so I love how you chose not to mention the fact that he was numerically faster with HK45 than with a gun that has shortest and lightest trigger of them all - a 1911.
Keep posting, it is getting to be fun.
Yea because it proved my point. I love how you overlooked this obvious flaw in your argument. By the way the first shot in a multi shot drill is not effected by recoil (ie caliber 45 vs 9mm).
Langdon was sponsored by Sig. Some reason thought Stoeger was sponsored by Beretta. Either way what makes their performance remarkably was they were using a gun that is a handicap and hence why most shooters don't use them.
Similar to when Sevigny took 1st in Limited with a Glock beating 2011 shooters. It usually does not happen. If you were right and DA SA guns were so great you would see them in open and limited as well and you don't and you barely see them in production. You want to see the DA SA fall flat on its face do some one shot draw drills on a 8 inch disk at 25 yards and record the hit to miss ratio and the times with a DA SA vs a Glock or a 1911.
Pat
thopkins22
09-08-13, 23:07
So while we're on it, let's iron out a bunch of similar issues.
9mm or .45ACP?
AR or AK?
Blonde or brunette?
Get my drift? Nobody is winning this fight(even though we all know the right answer.) ;)
Yea because it proved my point. I love how you overlooked this obvious flaw in your argument. By the way the first shot in a multi shot drill is not effected by recoil (ie caliber 45 vs 9mm).
Pat
You're still avoiding the fact that he was faster with HK45 than 9 mm 1911. It disproved your point. Now what?
Not seeing how prior sponsorship by Sig has anything to do with someone's choice to shoot a Beretta in a major match.
The first shot, or any shot in a drill, can easily be affected by a caliber. You have to squeeze gun harder and have more arm tension if you expect a harder kick and need to make followup shots. More tension - slower speed, yes? Let's agree on something, for a change...
I am doing a Rogers Shooting School in April, which is pretty much all about SHO/WHO at speed. It'll be either with LEM or DA/SA. I'll let you know.
So while we're on it, let's iron out a bunch of similar issues.
9mm or .45ACP?
AR or AK?
Blonde or brunette?
Legs.
Alaskapopo
09-09-13, 00:32
You're still avoiding the fact that he was faster with HK45 than 9 mm 1911. It disproved your point. Now what?
Not seeing how prior sponsorship by Sig has anything to do with someone's choice to shoot a Beretta in a major match.
The first shot, or any shot in a drill, can easily be affected by a caliber. You have to squeeze gun harder and have more arm tension if you expect a harder kick and need to make followup shots. More tension - slower speed, yes? Let's agree on something, for a change...
I am doing a Rogers Shooting School in April, which is pretty much all about SHO/WHO at speed. It'll be either with LEM or DA/SA. I'll let you know.
Legs.
1. The first shot is the same rather is a .22 or a .45 its just a matter of how fast you can put your sights on target and pull the trigger. You should not be squeezing harder from one gun to the next. You should have a consistent technique. Of course this is how I was trained perhaps your training is different.
2. It is strange that he fired the 45 faster than the 9mm 1911 very very strange but it has nothing to do with the trigger after the first shot as both are in SA mode for long shot strings. The argument here is the DA is a handicap for the 1st and most important shot in a gun fight. The HK USP in 45 I owned was much harder to shoot compared to the Glock 21 that I was issued later and way harder than any 1911 I have owned in 9mm. Perhaps he was slower because he was not used to the lower recoil impulse. Going from a harder recoiling gun to a lighter one can mess with your timing until you are used to it.
In the end the shooter does matter more than the gear so using examples of great shooters is a bit erroneous. Daniel Horner has won three gun matches using a SBR and most of us know SBR's are not ideal for three gun. Horner is that good.
Pat
The technique is the same, but are you saying you're gripping a .22LR handgun as hard as .45 ACP handgun?
Alaskapopo
09-09-13, 01:17
The technique is the same, but are you saying you're gripping a .22LR handgun as hard as .45 ACP handgun?
Yes. The shooting hand is firm but not overly tight while your support hand grips hard it controls the recoil and drives the gun. Your gun hand simply pulls the trigger. A master class shooter taught me this and it has helped me quite a bit. I try to keep the same technique for all the pistols I shoot.
On a side note I took 2nd in open in a club match today shooting minor. Felt pretty good about that performance. Even beat a master class shooter but he did bomb a few stages which helped a lot.
Pat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKY4yWYljZo&feature=youtu.be
Wish I had more videos but my camera battery died after the first stage. Also took first in the shotgun side match.
In reality for competition the DA SA argument is not that huge because it only affects your first shot on the stage. Generally depending on the stage you can take that on a close target so by the time your shooting harder shots your gun is in SA mode. All depends on stage design. I really think you should try some 1st round drills on steel at longer distances comparing the LEM to the DA SA to a Glock to a 1911.
pat
DanjojoUSMC
09-09-13, 06:47
Most times small-ish targets at medium to long distance is where time difference will be less or none as you just start your pull earlier with a longer, heavier trigger. For sure each individual has a place where it's too much for them at least mentally and someone who can shoot DA being their instructor is a huge thing. If you start to squeeze at that same "early" time well before good sight picture with a short, light trigger then it's a easy chance for a miss. Unless the shot is fired within .1 sec of being presented at the target it wasn't the trigger mech that slowed you.
It's easy to try a few DA then a few SA and so on. Some end up liking it, maybe even prefer it. All the time in the world then I would of course take a short, 3-lbs. trigger and be gentle.
Cooper, R.I.P. and Semper Fi, had a dumb ass opinion on DA that still stinks and keeps people from trying to truly learn it. If every month every year, dozens of young service members in their first go at pistol handling in their lives can learn to shoot truly quick and accurate DA first shots , anybody can.
Alaskapopo
09-09-13, 13:18
Most times small-ish targets at medium to long distance is where time difference will be less or none as you just start your pull earlier with a longer, heavier trigger. For sure each individual has a place where it's too much for them at least mentally and someone who can shoot DA being their instructor is a huge thing. If you start to squeeze at that same "early" time well before good sight picture with a short, light trigger then it's a easy chance for a miss. Unless the shot is fired within .1 sec of being presented at the target it wasn't the trigger mech that slowed you.
It's easy to try a few DA then a few SA and so on. Some end up liking it, maybe even prefer it. All the time in the world then I would of course take a short, 3-lbs. trigger and be gentle.
Cooper, R.I.P. and Semper Fi, had a dumb ass opinion on DA that still stinks and keeps people from trying to truly learn it. If every month every year, dozens of young service members in their first go at pistol handling in their lives can learn to shoot truly quick and accurate DA first shots , anybody can.
Most gun fights happen at close range but not all do. The point here is that the DA first shot is a handicap. How much of a handicap can be debated from gun design to gun design and from situation to situation but none the less its a disadvantage. Also Cooper was correct. The DA SA system did not solve a problem. The 1911 was fast into action and safe to carry. The DA SA design was created out of unsubstantiated fears that SA pistols were unsafe. I don't agree with Cooper on everything but he had this one nailed.
Pat
Also Cooper was correct. The DA SA system did not solve a problem. The 1911 was fast into action and safe to carry. The DA SA design was created out of unsubstantiated fears that SA pistols were unsafe. I don't agree with Cooper on everything but he had this one nailed.
I disagree.
The Walther PP was the first DA/SA pistol, back in 1929, and the reason they came up with the DA/SA trigger action, was to allow police to carry a pistol that was ready to fire without anything other than a pull of the trigger.
Eerily similar to one of Glock's biggest selling points.
Back then, before the DA/SA trigger action, if you wanted to carry a semi-automatic pistol safely, and then get the pistol into action, you had to either cock the hammer, flick the safety lever, or carry unloaded and rack the slide. There is a reason that DA/SA pistols were popular for decades, just as there is a reason that "constant action" pistols are popular today.
Glock just took this one step further. A lot of people seem to like it, so other manufacturers mimicked the trigger pull/trigger action.
Also, look at the safety levers of the pistols in the 1930's. Not many of them were really optimized for quick and reliable manipulation. Even the 1911's safety lever was what I would consider a "small nub".
Alaskapopo
09-09-13, 13:54
I disagree.
The Walther PP was the first DA/SA pistol, back in 1929, and the reason they came up with the DA/SA trigger action, was to allow police to carry a pistol that was ready to fire without anything other than a pull of the trigger.
Eerily similar to one of Glock's biggest selling points.
Back then, before the DA/SA trigger action, if you wanted carry a semi-automatic pistol safely, and then get the pistol into action, you had to either cock the hammer, flick the safety lever, or carry unloaded and rack the slide. There is a reason that DA/SA pistols were popular for decades, just as there is a reason that "constant action" pistols are popular today.
Glock just took this one step further. A lot of people seem to like it, so other manufacturers mimicked the trigger pull/trigger action.
Also, look at the safety levers of the pistols in the 1930's. Not many of them were really optimized for quick and reliable manipulation. Even the 1911's safety lever was what I would consider a "small nub".
What I am saying is cocked and locked is fast and more efficient and in some ways safer (from gun grabs) than the DA SA system. They had a good thing and just did not know it because of an irrational fear of cocked and locked and their training at the time did not teach them to keep their finger off the trigger.
Pat
Gutshot John
09-09-13, 14:20
You just need to filter through some crap to get to the good information.
Pat
On the internet, everyone's opinion is equal and they are all expert shooters.
How do you (the royal "you") filter through that crap unless you already know a good deal?
If you already know a good deal, why are you unable to formulate your own opinions?
Alaskapopo
09-09-13, 16:37
On the internet, everyone's opinion is equal and they are all expert shooters.
How do you (the royal "you") filter through that crap unless you already know a good deal?
If you already know a good deal, why are you unable to formulate your own opinions?
Well you can look at the numbers for starters. 100 people say its good and 10 say its not you have pretty good odds its good. You can also look at the persons credentials such as SME's etc. What did we have before? Gun magazines that never said anything bad about anything because they live on advertising.
Pat
Gutshot John
09-09-13, 17:06
Well you can look at the numbers for starters. 100 people say its good and 10 say its not you have pretty good odds its good. You can also look at the persons credentials such as SME's etc. What did we have before? Gun magazines that never said anything bad about anything because they live on advertising.
Pat
Honestly I'm not sure I buy into all the SME hype, any more than I buy into IT security "best practices" in my job. SME of what? Best practices of whom? I've gone to competitions and classes where I've shot against people that would be considered SMEs, and smoked em.
I mean sure they have more credibility than every other schmuck out there, but that doesn't change the fact that what's right for them isn't necessarily right for me and that's a phenomenon I've experienced dozens of times. Their fanboys are even worse.
I agree about gun magazines but I also know what they are, as I said I don't put much credibility there, but at least there is some accountability as someone puts their name there.
There is no accountability here, I listen to those I know, whose credentials I believe, and who have impressed me. Everyone else, SME or not, gets the same degree of critical thought and skepticism. There are other SMEs here that I don't lend any credibility at all as they often have their own axe to grind and motives as suspect as a gun rag that sells advertising.
Alaskapopo
09-09-13, 17:29
Honestly I'm not sure I buy into all the SME hype, any more than I buy into IT security "best practices" in my job. SME of what? Best practices of whom? I've gone to competitions and classes where I've shot against people that would be considered SMEs, and smoked em.
I mean sure they have more credibility than every other schmuck out there, but that doesn't change the fact that what's right for them isn't necessarily right for me and that's a phenomenon I've experienced dozens of times. Their fanboys are even worse.
I agree about gun magazines but I also know what they are, as I said I don't put much credibility there, but at least there is some accountability as someone puts their name there.
There is no accountability here, I listen to those I know, whose credentials I believe, and who have impressed me. Everyone else, SME or not, gets the same degree of critical thought and skepticism. There are other SMEs here that I don't lend any credibility at all as they often have their own axe to grind and motives as suspect as a gun rag that sells advertising.
Just saying its a factor to look at. Your right not all of the "experts" out there are really experts.
Pat
I did meet Col. Cooper on a few occasions, one was at an IALEFI Conference (I was on the Board) one time at his ranch, he showed my Son and I his vault! He was working on his Patrol Rifle idea at the time, forward mounted scope.
He put his arm over my Sons shoulder (both of them were tall) he said "Your Dad is quite a good man, except for his penchant for that pip squeak caliber, the 9mm!"
But he did say that double action was a perfect solution for a non existent problem. To each his own.
I taught double action for over twenty years, S&W Revolvers, most had the single action removed, and I do well with that system, but it does not compare to my Glock19 with the 3.5 connector, first and repeat shots.
Look at the good results from the NYPD 12lb triggers! The results are plain to see, bystanders shot by accident!
It makes no sense to use trigger weight (Very heavy ones!) as a safety measure, stupid. The trigger is the most important part of accuracy, no problem.
Now the "I don't agree crowd" will pipe up. "I can shoot with a twenty pound trigger" etc. But I, and all shooters who have been shooting pistols for over 40 years, will agree.
Keep finger on slide, till ready to fire works. The standard Glock trigger needs training to use, like all mechanical objects, 5.5lbs.
The most important part in a gun fight, the first shot! Has to have the best chance of hitting. So start practicing that, with an empty Glock (Glock 19 anyone!) no ammo, no magazines.
In front of mirror, on an outside wall. Check pistol, again! Short jack on the slide, cocks the firing pin. Holster. Draw, punch the pistol forward, to the position you wish to fire a sighted shot, master eye behind the sights.
That was two hands, one works as well. press the trigger till it clicks, do not let go of the trigger, short movement of slide rearwards, release trigger, only till it clicks.
Holster, do it again. The sights should be perfectly aligned. Do this enough, the click of trigger release will be as the arms stop moving forward. Again, sights aligned.
You don't need to try this with a 12lb trigger, it is not as easy!
Look at the good results from the NYPD 12lb triggers! The results are plain to see, bystanders shot by accident!
It makes no sense to use trigger weight (Very heavy ones!) as a safety measure, stupid. The trigger is the most important part of accuracy, no problem.
Now the "I don't agree crowd" will pipe up. "I can shoot with a twenty pound trigger" etc. But I, and all shooters who have been shooting pistols for over 40 years, will agree.
Keep finger on slide, till ready to fire works. The standard Glock trigger needs training to use, like all mechanical objects, 5.5lbs.
The most important part in a gun fight, the first shot! Has to have the best chance of hitting. So start practicing that, with an empty Glock (Glock 19 anyone!) no ammo, no magazines.
In front of mirror, on an outside wall. Check pistol, again! Short jack on the slide, cocks the firing pin. Holster. Draw, punch the pistol forward, to the position you wish to fire a sighted shot, master eye behind the sights.
That was two hands, one works as well. press the trigger till it clicks, do not let go of the trigger, short movement of slide rearwards, release trigger, only till it clicks.
Holster, do it again. The sights should be perfectly aligned. Do this enough, the click of trigger release will be as the arms stop moving forward. Again, sights aligned.
You don't need to try this with a 12lb trigger, it is not as easy!
Berettas DA is 8. I have both glocks and the Beretta. Faster and more accurate with DA/SA. Why is it so hard to swallow that people shoot what they like best and neither is more correct than the other?
the 12 pound glock trigger for NYPD is only part of the problem. The lack of substantial training being the main one. Way to grossly over simplify the issue.
Also, thanks but I don't think we need the shooting lesson. Many of us actually go out and shoot with our chosen system and become proficient rather than sitting behind a keyboard and crapping on differing designs.
I hate all plastic guns.....The 5906 Smith & Wesson gets my vote.
They are the most accurate/ reliable semi auto pistols I have ever owned.
S & W should be ashamed to even be makeing plastic guns now..
AMEN Brother. The 5906 was a chunk of SS and a shooter to boot.
Berettas DA is 8. I have both glocks and the Beretta. Faster and more accurate with DA/SA. Why is it so hard to swallow that people shoot what they like best and neither is more correct than the other?
the 12 pound glock trigger for NYPD is only part of the problem. The lack of substantial training being the main one. Way to grossly over simplify the issue.
Also, thanks but I don't think we need the shooting lesson. Many of us actually go out and shoot with our chosen system and become proficient rather than sitting behind a keyboard and crapping on differing designs.
Foxtrot 1 (that is one of our unit call signs!) Being sarcastic is not becoming.
I ran my own training company for 23 years. I am not totally clueless. New York's finest are trained in huge groups! I spent a day training (shooting) with them, in the 90s. The are all fixed point, stand on a concrete path, and on targets turning to face the shooters. This is not much better to this day.
The Uniformed Police still do not use real homes, real streets to train in, as the Special Forces do, why?
We know that shooting is not the most important part of Police training, it has never been. Because that is not were the money is made. And there is just not that many gun fights.
Three other Firearms Instructors and I invented the Black Badge training program that is still used today in IPSC, in 1980.
I have Black Badge No. 1 (I picked the badges up!) well it was practical shooting.
But despite not needing a lesson in shooting, going back to basics is vastly important in all handgun training.
And I do still shoot at 77YOA, not bad for an old guy.
Keep on training, with your system of choice. Today the Battle Of Britain is celebrated, brings back memories, born in 1935 I watched the fighters clash over the Liverpool docks.
Thanks to the Yanks we won that little tussle!
Oh, wait a minute, I am one now!
You forgot to mention beretta. The safety on the slide should have went with the smith and Wesson 3rd gen pistols.:bad:
J/K :P
Physics, do not lie. Ernest Langdon, great shooter, Pat (our much posted shooter/instructor) great shot, every body has these ideas, the why one system is better than an other.
Physics, I knew all about that, when as a twenty plus year old Bouncer in a rough job, in a rough City, Liverpool UK. It worked, proof?
At 5'10" and around 195lbs? Not sure now, (currently 204lbs) Pleasantly plump? and shrunk!
My Mates? Big! Real Big. One was around 6'6" no idea of his weight, big arms, they all had broken noses! Only Larry and I had straight ones, Larry was Ex SAS, only found out after he died, he never spoke about his Service. (I was national Service!)
Moving big heavy arms, takes longer than those that are not as big, talking like a French Man, hands up, near your jaw, meant you did not have to move them as far. (Not drinking beer, big plus)
Take these thought patterns to guns, in holsters, lighter gun, easier to move, Glock trigger (me 3.5 connector, 4lb pull? about)
easier to press, design of trigger, short distance to move it, and reset it.
This is quicker, and easier to shoot. That most important shot, the first one. No question, it is Physics.
The 9mm cartridge, less recoil than the .40 or the 45ACP. More going out, and quicker, yes?
DreadPirateMoyer
09-23-13, 13:47
I'd like to offer a reply, but...what?
PatrioticDisorder
09-23-13, 14:34
I'd like to offer a reply, but...what?
Circumstantiality with Loosening of associations is what I got out of it.
Alaskapopo
09-23-13, 14:42
Circumstantiality with Loosening of associations is what I got out of it.
The man spoke the basic truth. A longer heavier trigger is harder to shoot than one that is shorter and lighter. Does not get any more simple than that.
Pat
The man spoke the basic truth. A longer heavier trigger is harder to shoot than one that is shorter and lighter. Does not get any more simple than that.
Pat
Are you sure you are not from Liverpool Pat?
As a volunteer, with OCSO we had a meeting last night, with a guest speaker, a firearms instructor.
He touched mostly on the safety aspects of firearms, but his point on fighting, IE fist fighting, was so accurate.
He said the new hire in the Sheriffs Office, have not ever been in a fight as an adult, and was amazed as this became the norm.
My contention, if you had not had a fist fight, a gun fight would be a huge shock to the system.
Agreed? Or not relevant?
Physics, do not lie. Ernest Langdon, great shooter, Pat (our much posted shooter/instructor) great shot, every body has these ideas, the why one system is better than an other.
Physics, I knew all about that, when as a twenty plus year old Bouncer in a rough job, in a rough City, Liverpool UK. It worked, proof?
At 5'10" and around 195lbs? Not sure now, (currently 204lbs) Pleasantly plump? and shrunk!
My Mates? Big! Real Big. One was around 6'6" no idea of his weight, big arms, they all had broken noses! Only Larry and I had straight ones, Larry was Ex SAS, only found out after he died, he never spoke about his Service. (I was national Service!)
Moving big heavy arms, takes longer than those that are not as big, talking like a French Man, hands up, near your jaw, meant you did not have to move them as far. (Not drinking beer, big plus)
Take these thought patterns to guns, in holsters, lighter gun, easier to move, Glock trigger (me 3.5 connector, 4lb pull? about)
easier to press, design of trigger, short distance to move it, and reset it.
This is quicker, and easier to shoot. That most important shot, the first one. No question, it is Physics.
The 9mm cartridge, less recoil than the .40 or the 45ACP. More going out, and quicker, yes?
Huh? The only thing that I understood was "mates" and "SAS". Well, and your pimping for striker fired guns.
Maybe you should ask your "mates" that were SAS/SBS why they have been issuing DA/SA SIGs for years. While you're at it, you might as well ask them if they think they're handicapped by going from a single action pistol (Hi-Power) to a DA/SA SIG.
Alaskapopo
09-25-13, 21:52
Military sidearm selection can often be biased. For example Glocks were not even considered for the 1985 pistol trials because they did not have a hammer. Bean counters and brass often select guns and not the shooters. The Glock 19 is highly popular overseas with contractors and anyone who is allowed to pick their own weapon and that says a lot more than what the British SAS issued its troops.
Pat
Military sidearm selection can often be biased. For example Glocks were not even considered for the 1985 pistol trials because they did not have a hammer. Bean counters and brass often select guns and not the shooters. The Glock 19 is highly popular overseas with contractors and anyone who is allowed to pick their own weapon and that says a lot more than what the British SAS issued its troops.
Pat
SAS, SEAL Teams, SecServ, FAMs, KSK are victims to institutional inertia and politics, Pat. ALL OF THEM. I would, most definitely, look at what contractors use first, 'cause it says a lot more than what many premiere units shoot.
DreadPirateMoyer
09-26-13, 00:35
I agree that looking at what the military uses isn't necessarily a good way to determine good firearms, but I don't think looking at contractors is a good way either. Too many AARs I've read of contractor engagements in Iraq/Afghanistan show Bushmasters being used above all else (which boggles my mind, since you can get a Colt for roughly the same price).
I actually do think striker-fired weapons offer an advantage over DA/SA (though I think it's overblown). The problem is, there aren't any good ones on the market right now in mass quantities. Here's hoping Walthers and FNs catch on, because lord knows I won't touch a recent-production Glock with a 400 foot pole.
(OK, I will. I just won't buy one.)
SAS, SEAL Teams, SecServ, FAMs, KSK are victims to institutional inertia and politics, Pat. ALL OF THEM. I would, most definitely, look at what contractors use first, 'cause it says a lot more than what many premiere units shoot.
Let's not forget the UK SBS (SIG), NZ SAS (SIG), Aussie SAS (HK USP), Danish Jaegers (SIG) and countless others. Let's just say that the majority of top tier SOF around the world, select and choose to issue DA/SA pistols.
Military sidearm selection can often be biased. For example Glocks were not even considered for the 1985 pistol trials because they did not have a hammer. Bean counters and brass often select guns and not the shooters. The Glock 19 is highly popular overseas with contractors and anyone who is allowed to pick their own weapon and that says a lot more than what the British SAS issued its troops.
Pat
Are you serious? Do you know why the G19 is popular overseas? It's because we are shipping them over there. Might as well say that the Sigma is a good weapon too, since we handed those out as well.
Maybe we should run it by the few "beancounters" over at DEVGRU who selected the HK45CT (v3) over the Glock 21 recently. Or why they continue to issue the Mk25. We all know that there's much better options. Right?
Alaskapopo
09-26-13, 04:41
Are you serious? Do you know why the G19 is popular overseas? It's because we are shipping them over there. Might as well say that the Sigma is a good weapon too, since we handed those out as well.
Maybe we should run it by the few "beancounters" over at DEVGRU who selected the HK45CT (v3) over the Glock 21 recently. Or why they continue to issue the Mk25. We all know that there's much better options. Right?
Its a popular gun because it is the perfect balance of size and ease of shooting in a 9mm pistol. Its being sent there because that is what people want not obsolete DA SA pistols. If they wanted them they could have DA SA guns too but its a Glock world as Vickers said and for a good reason.
Pat
Alaskapopo
09-26-13, 04:42
Let's not forget the UK SBS (SIG), NZ SAS (SIG), Aussie SAS (HK USP), Danish Jaegers (SIG) and countless others. Let's just say that the majority of top tier SOF around the world, select and choose to issue DA/SA pistols.
Actually the majority of bean counters chose these weapons for their top units big difference and in most of these units the pistol is a very seldom used piece of equipment. In units like Delta where pistol shooting is taken more seriously they don't use DA SA guns. This has been pointed out to you before by SME's on this board.
Pat
Alaskapopo
09-26-13, 04:52
Are you serious? Do you know why the G19 is popular overseas? It's because we are shipping them over there. Might as well say that the Sigma is a good weapon too, since we handed those out as well.
Maybe we should run it by the few "beancounters" over at DEVGRU who selected the HK45CT (v3) over the Glock 21 recently. Or why they continue to issue the Mk25. We all know that there's much better options. Right?
I highly doubt the selling point of the HK45 over the Glock was the trigger system. You might want to research that one. HK makes a good pistol but their triggers are not their strength in fact most consider it their biggest area of improvement needed.
Alaskapopo
09-26-13, 04:54
I agree that looking at what the military uses isn't necessarily a good way to determine good firearms, but I don't think looking at contractors is a good way either. Too many AARs I've read of contractor engagements in Iraq/Afghanistan show Bushmasters being used above all else (which boggles my mind, since you can get a Colt for roughly the same price).
I actually do think striker-fired weapons offer an advantage over DA/SA (though I think it's overblown). The problem is, there aren't any good ones on the market right now in mass quantities. Here's hoping Walthers and FNs catch on, because lord knows I won't touch a recent-production Glock with a 400 foot pole.
(OK, I will. I just won't buy one.)
I believe the reports of Glocks problems of late are greatly overblown. Everyone I know with Gen 4 9mm's is doing fine with them.
Pat
Huh? The only thing that I understood was "mates" and "SAS". Well, and your pimping for striker fired guns.
Maybe you should ask your "mates" that were SAS/SBS why they have been issuing DA/SA SIGs for years. While you're at it, you might as well ask them if they think they're handicapped by going from a single action pistol (Hi-Power) to a DA/SA SIG.
Well a little vitriolic in your reply yes? I never spoke to the one SAS Trooper of pistols, Larry Newport, I only found out he was SAS, from his obituary. His fighting ability was on par with mine, but I was self trained (just doing a lot of it) shooting a crate of 9mm a month?
You could train a monkey to shoot real good, with any pistol.
Plus MP5's were the weapon of choice, in 9mm.
My experience with the Hi Power, a safety catch you could not use, and a magazine disconnect? Stupid, plus the magazines in service were crap.
My Glock's have the best magazines made, that don't rust in hi humidity applications, as the browning's did. And work/and work.
You talk of "Striker fired" as though it is a new, and not good system? Ever owned a Luger?
This form of communication is based on what we like/use, in the way of pistols, you have noted mine, I recon I know yours, so to each his own.
Watching over an ATM tech, I know what I feel better with, in my holster, with 16 rounds of 147g Ranger T in place, a Glock4th Gen 19.
PatrioticDisorder
09-26-13, 06:40
I believe the reports of Glocks problems of late are greatly overblown. Everyone I know with Gen 4 9mm's is doing fine with them.
Pat
A likely explanation for that is you know guys who put a few hundred rounds through there guns and all it good (many people), before you hit the round count where trouble occurs or the people you know had issues and fixed the problem themselves via tinkering (or you don't know many people).
The gen4 glocks are more than serviceable. The "intrawebs" tends to over represent a small pool of shooters. The sample size of shooters who post about gen4 glock problems consist of mostly the same folks on different forums, with the info being redistributed and linked multiple times. Theyre all tools with springs and parts--therefore some won't work as they should. Get it fixed, life goes on.
As for beancounters selecting equipment...Amen. I have equipment/weapons gear I would never waste taxpayer money on. But someone did. the people who are qualified to make good choices usually don't want to deal with the BS of being in the position to choose good kit.
BoringGuy45
09-26-13, 08:11
The PD in the town I used to work had been using Glocks for ages and switched to the Gen4 G22 not long after it came out. They had multiple complaints from their officers about it concerning all of the issues listed here (ejection and such). Granted, it was a smaller PD (about 100 officers) but the problems were widespread enough that only a few months of carrying the Gen4s, the department terminated the contract and went with the M&P45.
That said, when it comes to Glock, Sig, and other companies that have had QC problems as of late, the fact remains that most of them offer very proven designs and person is much more likely than not to get one that works just fine.
I think we're spinning in circles a bit here. Frankly, I'm not even sure what the point of the thread was when it started given all the other threads talking about the various issues across the brands.
I will drop this in here though... Be very careful with problem reports and over-extrapolating information. To do otherwise is to believe that Sig isn't doing any QC at all, the Glocks are lawn sprinklers, you can't get an HK fixed, and M&Ps won't eject. Few will get down into meaningful data, and criteria for inclusion or exclusion from "problem" lists aren't clearly defined.
Also, be cautious in asserting the experiences of agencies and user groups unless you're part of that program or process. Agency X may be dumping this or that, but what you don't know what you don't know. The folks that do usually aren't posting it on the internet.
Actually the majority of bean counters chose these weapons for their top units big difference and in most of these units the pistol is a very seldom used piece of equipment. In units like Delta where pistol shooting is taken more seriously they don't use DA SA guns. This has been pointed out to you before by SME's on this board.
Pat
Ah, of course. FAMs and SecServ who operate in a bystander-rich environment with pistol as a primary don't take pistol shooting as seriously as CAG, for whom pistol is secondary for most of the time. Spot on.
Alaskapopo
09-26-13, 13:19
A likely explanation for that is you know guys who put a few hundred rounds through there guns and all it good (many people), before you hit the round count where trouble occurs or the people you know had issues and fixed the problem themselves via tinkering (or you don't know many people).
Actually no that is not the case as I am talking about my friends who like me are competitive shooters and we put thousands of rounds through our guns over the course of the season.
shadowspirit
09-26-13, 17:58
...there is way too much out there to support the issued Glock has been having with extraction / ejection. Sure, buy a few parts and it is an easy fix, but should this be necessary?
Enter the M&P, the American made answer to the Glock...finally. Too bad the accuracy is pure garbage.
Sig = get over the double action thing, went out with disco, grunge at the latest!
XD = I just threw up as I wrote that
I have a great SA MC Operator with no issues; however, 1911s are expensive and require expensive maintenance. I won't let just any chimp work on it. Luckily, I have a close friend to keep it tuned and rolling. But the 1911 is not the modern answer to a service pistol. I don't expect the pistol that is designed for my hand and has a 1911-like trigger. What happened to Glock and what will be the answer to the next great service pistol? Will Glock return to its former glory? Will someone else step up?
I thought the Glock worked out all the issues for Gen 4. If any issues, wouldn't they take care of it?
I didn't know M&P accuracy was bad. Can anyone elaborate?
XDs are different looking. My impression is they're fine for a service pistol.
1911s are good if reliable like the old GI ones built to spec. It wouldn't cost agencies too much for 1911s that aren't overly tight. With 7 rounds it can discourage spray and pray shooting. Training to change mags is a good idea for LE. I'm not sure about reliability of various types of hollow-points in the above 1911 example, though. Any comments?
Cheers
shadowspirit
09-26-13, 18:01
Sig = get over the double action thing, went out with disco, grunge at the latest!
There is/was a SAO Sig.
I thought the Glock worked out all the issues for Gen 4. If any issues, wouldn't they take care of it?
I didn't know M&P accuracy was bad. Can anyone elaborate?
XDs are different looking. My impression is they're fine for a service pistol.
1911s are good if reliable like the old GI ones built to spec. It wouldn't cost agencies too much for 1911s that aren't overly tight. With 7 rounds it can discourage spray and pray shooting. Training to change mags is a good idea for LE. I'm not sure about reliability of various types of hollow-points in the above 1911 example, though. Any comments?
Cheers
All the things you ask about are discussed ad nauseum in other threads, one of which is ~100 pages long. I recommend reading up on those so that there is more context for your reading of this thread.
Alaskapopo
09-26-13, 18:17
I thought the Glock worked out all the issues for Gen 4. If any issues, wouldn't they take care of it?
I didn't know M&P accuracy was bad. Can anyone elaborate?
XDs are different looking. My impression is they're fine for a service pistol.
1911s are good if reliable like the old GI ones built to spec. It wouldn't cost agencies too much for 1911s that aren't overly tight. With 7 rounds it can discourage spray and pray shooting. Training to change mags is a good idea for LE. I'm not sure about reliability of various types of hollow-points in the above 1911 example, though. Any comments?
Cheers
Having too few rounds available can get you killed. Spray and pray is a training issue not a gun issue. I carried a Single stack 1911 for a lot of years as a duty pistol until seeing officer involved shooting videos where high capacity proved to be a life saver for the cops. Never again will I carry a duty weapon holding less than 15 rounds.
Pat
Last call for getting this thread back on track please.
Alaskapopo
09-26-13, 20:22
Last call for getting this thread back on track please.
To get it back on track I have to say I have noticed firearms in general have gone down in quality over the last 10 years. Seems that manufactures are trying to cost cut to maximize profits at the expense of quality. Once common and trusted guns are not what they used to be such as the Remington 870. Used to be the gold standard for pumps and over the last few years I have seen so many of the new ones crap out with just a few rounds through them. The other day at a match the extractor came off of one. We hear complaints with Sigs, Glocks, M&P's etc having issues. It seems you need to buy a semi custom gun to get what you used to get in a production gun and you need to get a custom gun to get what you used to get with a semi custom.
pat
I recently bought a PPQ M2 Navy to supplant an M&P 9 FS, only to have the following happen:
250 rounds fired:
200 124gr FMJ
50 147gr HST +P JHP (started at the 150 round mark)
Failures:
11 Failures to feed
14 Failures to fire
Yup, one failure every 10 rounds.
The consensus at Walther (after 100 rounds) was that it needed to broken in - ever have a full size service/duty pistol with a break-in period? After 250 rounds I told them it needed to go back. Not sure what I will do with it when it comes back. So many times it was fully chambered, then *click* nothing. Not the most inspiring.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-26-13, 20:38
LOL. Is this thread still here??:help:
shadowspirit
09-26-13, 20:41
To get it back on track I have to say I have noticed firearms in general have gone down in quality over the last 10 years. Seems that manufactures are trying to cost cut to maximize profits at the expense of quality.
Heavy demand in recent years has probably hurt quality. Manufacturers can't keep up. Some manufacturers will cut corners to get them out of the door.
I have been searching for the perfect pistol, myself. I bought a M&P40 in May that I'm pretty happy with. I added an Apex Poly FSS because I hate the hinged S&W trigger. Brought it to a short 2lb trigger. I also added TTI extended base pads to the mags to make it 20+1 capacity. Once I add a magwell, stipple the grip, and put some DP sights on it, it'll be dang close to the perfect range/competition gun.
The "perfect" carry gun for me is my Gen3 Glock 19. I added Trijicon HD night sights, and everything else is stock. I carry it daily in a deSantis Intruder IWB hybrid holster. It's the perfect compromise between a concealable handgun and a proven fighting handgun.
I also have a Gen3 Glock 35 that I've been shooting quite a bit, and have carried it in my G19 holster. It is a very nice shooter, is a natural pointer, and balances well in my hand. I had to train myself to ride the extended slide release, but that was easily overcome.
I'm working on building one of my dream guns at the moment, a Gen3 G17L. I know it will suit me well, and I'll shoot it well, because I'm building it from a stripped frame and cherry-picking every component that goes into it.
I guess I can honestly say that there will probably never be "the perfect" handgun for me, I'm open-minded enough and skilled enough to be proficient with about anything I've picked up thus far. I own 1911s, Glocks, M&Ps, and FNs, and love and shoot them all. I have different handguns for different duties, but the one I have that is the most versatile, I feel, is the G19. Size, capacity, ease of manipulation, and reliability make it useful in any role.
DanjojoUSMC
09-26-13, 21:42
I recently bought a PPQ M2 Navy to supplant an M&P 9 FS, only to have the following happen:
250 rounds fired:
200 124gr FMJ
50 147gr HST +P JHP (started at the 150 round mark)
Failures:
11 Failures to feed
14 Failures to fire
Yup, one failure every 10 rounds.
The consensus at Walther (after 100 rounds) was that it needed to broken in - ever have a full size service/duty pistol with a break-in period? After 250 rounds I told them it needed to go back. Not sure what I will do with it when it comes back. So many times it was fully chambered, then *click* nothing. Not the most inspiring.
Factory grease concoctions can cause early hiccups if it isn't all gone before range time. Especially if it's in the striker or firing pin channel. Sometimes springs are accidently put in wrong or part of a batch that is a couple lbs out of spec. If it is 3 or 4 lbs heavier on the recoil spring then you can get FTF and striker not cocking.
Factory grease concoctions can cause early hiccups if it isn't all gone before range time. Especially if it's in the striker or firing pin channel. Sometimes springs are accidently put in wrong or part of a batch that is a couple lbs out of spec. If it is 3 or 4 lbs heavier on the recoil spring then you can get FTF and striker not cocking.
Yeah, I think it has to do with the stronger striker on the PPQ M2 Navy edition in combination with the main spring. The spring tension is probably just a bit off.
Either way I stripped down the striker assembly, cleaned and re-lubed it after the first 50 rounds. Failures still occurred, just *slightly* less often.
Gives me pause to think the pistol may be so reliant on the exact balance of springs though.
The Service pistol of the Swiss Military, is the Sig 210 9mm.
A member of a Gun Club I belonged to in England had one (He was very rich!) as a modern Service pistol, as Pat says, 9 rounds full capacity, is a bit shy of the full compliment. IMHO 16 rounds is perfect, as in Gen4 Glock 19, plus a G17 spare magazine is a comfort.
Back to the Sig P210, at twenty yards, 10 rounds in a 2" ragged hole was doable (at 21 years of age that is) cycling the slide, pure precision, smooth as butter, a perfect pistol? Yes, cost? Prohibitive!
Why the Glock pistols should be perfect, case in point, the Glock 17. In visiting the Glock Plant in a small Austrian Town, Deutsch-Wagram, on more than one occasion, I was shown the CNC Machines that produced slides.
Each machine made 24 slides at a time, 6 billets of steel, mounted on a pedestal, on each side.
This machine took 6 hours to do this, replacing machine tool parts, automatically. Each slide was as humanly possible, identical.
Mixing ten assembled pistols up, re disassembly, and random reassembly, was one of the tests these firearms went through.
How they ever had a problem, with any of their firearms, I can not imagine. And they make all the parts, in house. Including springs, and the cold hammer forged barrels.
Just bought five G17 magazines, direct from Smyrna GA. works of art, that take 18 rounds (no I will just load 17, superstition?) so are Duty Pistols going down in quality, no, I don't think so.
Having said that, anything that humans make, errors are possible. Thinking of the multitude of models/calibers', and the staggering volume? I am truly amazed at the consistent quality from 1983 till now.
I'd say yeah. Quality is going backwards for now.
I think the problem is that they're trying to build parts desgned to be built using casting, with MIM.
When they design the parts to be made with MIM processs, quality will come back.
I think the guns are going to get even chunkier, and uglier, but if they work, then I guess some will be happy.
Me myself... I'll just stick with custom 1911s.
I have been searching for the perfect pistol, myself. I bought a M&P40 in May that I'm pretty happy with. I added an Apex Poly FSS because I hate the hinged S&W trigger. Brought it to a short 2lb trigger. I also added TTI extended base pads to the mags to make it 20+1 capacity. Once I add a magwell, stipple the grip, and put some DP sights on it, it'll be dang close to the perfect range/competition gun.
The "perfect" carry gun for me is my Gen3 Glock 19. I added Trijicon HD night sights, and everything else is stock. I carry it daily in a deSantis Intruder IWB hybrid holster. It's the perfect compromise between a concealable handgun and a proven fighting handgun.
I also have a Gen3 Glock 35 that I've been shooting quite a bit, and have carried it in my G19 holster. It is a very nice shooter, is a natural pointer, and balances well in my hand. I had to train myself to ride the extended slide release, but that was easily overcome.
I'm working on building one of my dream guns at the moment, a Gen3 G17L. I know it will suit me well, and I'll shoot it well, because I'm building it from a stripped frame and cherry-picking every component that goes into it.
I guess I can honestly say that there will probably never be "the perfect" handgun for me, I'm open-minded enough and skilled enough to be proficient with about anything I've picked up thus far. I own 1911s, Glocks, M&Ps, and FNs, and love and shoot them all. I have different handguns for different duties, but the one I have that is the most versatile, I feel, is the G19. Size, capacity, ease of manipulation, and reliability make it useful in any role.
I see you're at it again in another thread.
Getting the thread back on track isn't a plea you for you to write a treatise on your perfect pistol or a run down of everything you own or have owned. Read more, post less and when you post try to add something related to the thread and of value to others. The list of pistols you have owned has nothing to do with the thread "HAS DUTY PISTOL QUALITY GONE BACKWARDS." Congratulations, you just made my list.
From the OP
I know, I am seeking the perfect pistol.
He posted about things he didn't like or were unreliable about varying brands of pistols, I relayed things I've found about pistols that I like or that I've changed. Don't follow me around and pick apart my posts, trying to make me look the fool. What did you contribute to this thread? IBTL. Don't be a Richard.
BoringGuy45
09-28-13, 21:03
From the OP
He posted about things he didn't like or were unreliable about varying brands of pistols, I relayed things I've found about pistols that I like or that I've changed. Don't follow me around and pick apart my posts, trying to make me look the fool. What did you contribute to this thread? IBTL. Don't be a Richard.
I think the issue is that your post didn't really address the question at hand, which was whether or not the quality of pistols intended for LE/military duty had in any way declined as of late. There's a lot of other threads dedicated to sharing our gun preferences. These threads have a tendency to dissolve into pissing matches over brand loyalty or to turn into things that have nothing to do with anything, so there's a push to keep things very close to the original topic so that the thread doesn't get closed.
shadowspirit
09-28-13, 22:52
Having too few rounds available can get you killed. Spray and pray is a training issue not a gun issue. I carried a Single stack 1911 for a lot of years as a duty pistol until seeing officer involved shooting videos where high capacity proved to be a life saver for the cops. Never again will I carry a duty weapon holding less than 15 rounds.
Pat
How much better is the hi-cap mag if a person is skilled with 1911 mag changes?
Alaskapopo
09-28-13, 23:06
How much better is the hi-cap mag if a person is skilled with 1911 mag changes?
I used to think the same way but say your really good with mag changes and can swap mags on your 1911 in 1 to 1.5 seconds. The average person can shoot you 4 to 6 times in that time frame. (.25 sec a shot inside 7 yards)
I saw a shooting where the officer was hit in the face on a traffic stop. He could barely see to return fire. He had a Glock 17 he was able to keep the bad guy at bay and keep him from killing him by shooting one shot every half second or so at the drivers door until the bad guy drove off because he could not get out of the car to finish off the officer. I would much rather have more ammo on tap. I carry my Glock 17 now with extended mags that hold 22 rounds.
Pat
The purpose of a thread of this nature, IMHO, is educating the readers/members, first and foremost.
The nature of our participating posters is such, that other than the exact parameter's, laid down by the original poster, creep in.
Again, IMHO, and it is my finger (Yes, can not type!) that is working here, if, for instance, the thread is moving in to, as this one has, by some posters, areas such as the capacity of rounds carried in this duty pistol, and why, this is a good thing.
We have Police/Security Officers, who are issued hand guns, or carry privately purchased Pistols. And yet we also have fellow travelers, who can contribute also. By the mere fact of their experience and knowledge of the subject.
I myself coined a phrase "More is better, always" in the mid 80s, as a board member of a Law Enforcement Firearms training organization.
Some one else (not sure who) put an other good idea in the mix, "The fastest reload, is no reload" these are very good points, and certainly should not be excluded from a discussion of the quality of duty firearms, and weather they have gotten better or worse over time.
If these discussions can be completed in a manner, that fits in with the way we like to speak, and be spoken to, even better.
Back to bed, to sneak in a couple more hours, an IDPA Qualifier is an after breakfast task to be completed today.
A task that a Glock 19, Gen4 will be used, the same one that sits in a visible holster when being carried in my part time occupation, a G licensed Security Officer.
Military sidearm selection can often be biased. For example Glocks were not even considered for the 1985 pistol trials because they did not have a hammer. Bean counters and brass often select guns and not the shooters. The Glock 19 is highly popular overseas with contractors and anyone who is allowed to pick their own weapon and that says a lot more than what the British SAS issued its troops.
Pat
They weren't even considered because they declined to submit guns for testing.
Alaskapopo
09-29-13, 05:21
They weren't even considered because they declined to submit guns for testing.
The specs said you had to have a hammer go back and read the trials.
Pat
Austin Millbarge
09-29-13, 08:56
We (CT State Police) just went through a thorough a testing process for a new pistol. The pistols tested were M&P's of various calibers, a Beretta ( I don't recall which model), and Sig 226's, 229's, and 220's in various calibers. The Firearms Training Unit called/emailed every single firearms manufacturer they could find and requested they submit any model gun for testing in 9mm, .40, and .45.
The process was somewhat hosed from the start because our legislators wrote in the contract that the trade in guns had to be sold outside the US to police or military. So, Glock did not participate, and several others also did not. Several 1911 makers also turned us down, stating they would not be able to produce 1250 guns in our time frame (including Colt and Kimber, both were not able to come up with the guns inside of a year, go figure).
The Beretta failed out almost immediately. The M&P lasted a while longer, but ultimately also started producing failures earlier than was allowed under the testing guidelines. The Sigs all came through. The P220 was selected and is in use today. I would have liked to see how the Glocks and Colt 1911's would perform. But, they did not submit guns for testing.
This was just before I was transferred to the Firearms Training Unit, so I don't know the exact testing process, I can find out, but I don't know off the top of my head. The P220's have been deployed on the road for about a year, and besides magazines falling apart, they have been great.
The specs said you had to have a hammer go back and read the trials.
Pat
Kind of like the P7M13?
The JSAAP that lead the M9 include non-hammer guns. You may be thinking of the XM-10 test done in 88 based on a protest done by Ruger
We (CT State Police) just went through a thorough a testing process for a new pistol. The pistols tested were M&P's of various calibers, a Beretta ( I don't recall which model), and Sig 226's, 229's, and 220's in various calibers. The Firearms Training Unit called/emailed every single firearms manufacturer they could find and requested they submit any model gun for testing in 9mm, .40, and .45.
The process was somewhat hosed from the start because our legislators wrote in the contract that the trade in guns had to be sold outside the US to police or military. So, Glock did not participate, and several others also did not. Several 1911 makers also turned us down, stating they would not be able to produce 1250 guns in our time frame (including Colt and Kimber, both were not able to come up with the guns inside of a year, go figure).
The Beretta failed out almost immediately. The M&P lasted a while longer, but ultimately also started producing failures earlier than was allowed under the testing guidelines. The Sigs all came through. The P220 was selected and is in use today. I would have liked to see how the Glocks and Colt 1911's would perform. But, they did not submit guns for testing.
This was just before I was transferred to the Firearms Training Unit, so I don't know the exact testing process, I can find out, but I don't know off the top of my head. The P220's have been deployed on the road for about a year, and besides magazines falling apart, they have been great.
For the sake of curiosity their rationale being prohibiting trade in guns from being sold CONUS was what exactly?
Austin Millbarge
09-29-13, 15:50
I think the concern was one of our old guns being used in a crime. "It's for the children!!" I'm guessing because I don't know the thought process that goes through a politicians head.
shadowspirit
09-29-13, 16:40
We (CT State Police) just went through a thorough a testing process for a new pistol. The pistols tested were M&P's of various calibers, a Beretta ( I don't recall which model), and Sig 226's, 229's, and 220's in various calibers. The Firearms Training Unit called/emailed every single firearms manufacturer they could find and requested they submit any model gun for testing in 9mm, .40, and .45.
The process was somewhat hosed from the start because our legislators wrote in the contract that the trade in guns had to be sold outside the US to police or military. So, Glock did not participate, and several others also did not. Several 1911 makers also turned us down, stating they would not be able to produce 1250 guns in our time frame (including Colt and Kimber, both were not able to come up with the guns inside of a year, go figure).
The Beretta failed out almost immediately. The M&P lasted a while longer, but ultimately also started producing failures earlier than was allowed under the testing guidelines. The Sigs all came through. The P220 was selected and is in use today. I would have liked to see how the Glocks and Colt 1911's would perform. But, they did not submit guns for testing.
This was just before I was transferred to the Firearms Training Unit, so I don't know the exact testing process, I can find out, but I don't know off the top of my head. The P220's have been deployed on the road for about a year, and besides magazines falling apart, they have been great.
Interesting post. My guess is the Beretta wasn't the 92/94 model. Surprised about the M&P. I thought they were the same or very close to Glocks and Springfield XDs.
I'm surprised the department went with a single-stack model (Sig).
Austin Millbarge
09-29-13, 16:43
I would have preferred a 226 in 9mm or .40. Capacity is your friend in my opinion. Or stayed with the 229 we already had, just new ones. We were already geared up for a .40 ( we reload our own practice ammo).
Psalms144.1
09-30-13, 10:48
I would have preferred a 226 in 9mm or .40. Capacity is your friend in my opinion. Or stayed with the 229 we already had, just new ones. We were already geared up for a .40 ( we reload our own practice ammo).Austin - I couldn't agree more, brother. It astounds me whenever I see agencies INTENTIONALLY cutting on-board ammunition in half, even if you're "up gunning" to the .45 ACP...
I don't suppose there's any chance you're really going to get P227s, and a decent capacity at least?
We went through this nutroll back in the 2005-6ish timeframe, when the powers that be decided that, rather than invest in repair parts and improved ammunition for our P228s, we should get P229s. Of course, we ended up getting DAKs, in .40 S&W, which basically went counter to the recommnedation of the entire FI community (less a couple of REAL die hard Sig fanatics). Now I will venture a guess that probably 40% of our armed personnel are carrying a personal non-Sig firearm, or a personal Sig without the DAK trigger...
Best of luck to you!
Regards,
Kevin
Austin Millbarge
10-01-13, 20:05
No chance of 227's. We already have 1150 220's deployed to the field. I am very suprised we didn't just get newer 229's. We had no issues with the 229's we had, or the ammo, and we were geared up with a ton of ammo ( we also reload our own practice ammo, we had almost 100K worth of reloaded practice ammo) for the .40. I would have preferred a 229 over a 220.
I can only talk about the HK USP 9mm platform since its the only duty pistol I have ever had. We are issued HK USP 9mm compact's for duty pistols and are not allowed any other weapon(s). The laws and rules are very different from the USA.
I have had this HK pistol for 13 years now and I have shot 1000's of rounds with it and have had no issues at all. Only the springs in the mags was changed after 4 years and then every year after that. Changing the springs every year is my own choice, I just dont want to have feeding issues on the streets so Im just beeing carefull. I do wish they would have choosen the version with the safety on it. I hate double action shooting. Single action and safety switch is the way to go IMO.
You can argue against the choice of the compact for a duty pistol, personelly I would prefer a full size duty weapon such as the standard USP or if I had to choose a new HK pistol today I would take the P30L no doubt.
We are not allowed to make any modifications to this pistol and putting a rail adaptor on it is considered a modification. So finding a light for this pistol is a pain especially since we have to use a duty holster with level II or III retention. I have not found a holster like that, that will fit my pistol with the tlr-3 light :( I would be easier with the P30.
Anyway this is what Im issued and have to live with for a duty pistol. Could be worse I think. And please excuse my english, not my native language.
2167121672
policetested
11-28-13, 06:12
If you are talking about a true duty pistol, there is no such thing as perfection. In law enforcement you are pretty much stuck with what you are issued, period. You learn to shoot it and use the tool you are given.
In my career I have carried issued K-frames, 1911s, Beretta M9s and 92DAOs, Sigs 226s/229s, have 68 vintage M16s to M4s...they are all fine tools.
Back in the early 80s, I coined a phrase, "More is better, always" At the time I was a Firearms Instructor. Still!
On the board of IALEFI, the President was a Smith and Wesson Revolver man, hated me, and Glock!
I set up a match in DC, using the DC Police Range, great bunch of Cops.
It was specifically to show the advantage of hi-capacity pistols. No apology's, that was the purpose.
You started with loaded, holstered side arm. What ever you carried. You reached out to a cord, pulled it, then stepped forward to cover, pulling the cord started the mover on a cable, running, kind of quick, towards the shooter, diagonally from right to left, then it vanished behind a no shoot barricade. Normally no shoots are painted white, I only had black spray paint.
The Lt. who ran the range said "No shoots are normally white?" I said not in DC! He broke up.
Course of fire, all hits more than 5 count as 5 points. So quickly shoot your revolver dry, reload, continue. Most got off 7 rounds, or 8. I got off 10 from my Glock 17. My score did not count.
I hope it was a good lesson.
SBN, Sounds like you have a good Pistol, does not fail to feed, or fire.
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