View Full Version : M&P Shield starting to have problems
My 9mm M&P shield is beginning to experience erratic extraction issues.
The gun has about 1200-1800 rounds through it. I don't have a more precise round count because I loaned it out to a few professional contacts for evaluation.
In the last few hundred rounds I began to notice extraction issues that were not present before. The gun is typically cleaned after shooting, with attention payed to the extractor area in the form of a plastic brush pushing patches soaked in Slip 2000 followed by dry patches. I have not removed the extractor--as that is a bit out of my level.
Below is a photo of one of these situations. In it the case fails to extract and seems to be half in and half out of the chamber. It seems like the extractor lost grip of the case in midst of the extraction cycle.
The first instance occurred the second to last time I was shooting the gun with some Ranger Talon 147 grain loads. Since this was the first malfunction I experienced with the gun, I considered it a fluke, and fired another 40-50 rounds of the Ranger Talon ammo without issues.
A few days ago when I took the Shield shooting and experienced the same type of malfunction with the third round out of the gun, which was a round of the same Ranger Talon 147 Grain JHP. At this point I figured that perhaps the Ranger Talon was not a good fit, so I switched to some Black Hills 115 grain Tac-XP +P JHP. I'd previously fired at least a box of this ammo through the gun issues. But this time I experienced the same issue with the Black Hills ammo as I did with the Ranger. The Black Hills ammo used Winchester casing, so I am wondering if this is somehow related to the Winchester casings. as illustrated in the photo below. For whatever it's worth, this occurred in a different magazine. Below is a photo of the last malfunction:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/shieldproblem_zps2267e4c2.jpg
After having these issues, myself and a friend went on to fire over 200 rounds of mixed ammo through the gun, including brass cased Privi Partisan, Federal, American Eagle, and Estate ammo without any further issues.
I've contacted Smith & Wesson and am planning to send the gun back to be checked. My concern is that it is some type of tolerance stacking issue that they won't find that only manifests itself with certain ammo. To me this would mean that something is indeed wrong with the gun and a potential issue that could show up later with other ammo at an unexpected time.
Has anyone experienced similar issues?
thanks
I just noticed the rim on that empty casing
I don't have that many rounds through my Shield yet, so no I haven't had similar issues.
I would send the empty casing back with the pistol. That cut in the rim may allow S&W to diagnose the issue quicker.
KevinC
I build and see a lot of Shields. I have not run into any issues.
My guess is:
1. You more likely experience issues with Winchester brass (as it has a smaller rim.
2. Your extractor is worn out, spring is worn out or simply is out of spec.
C4
I've contacted Smith & Wesson and am planning to send the gun back to be checked. My concern is that it is some type of tolerance stacking issue that they won't find that only manifests itself with certain ammo. To me this would mean that something is indeed wrong with the gun and a potential issue that could show up later with other ammo at an unexpected time.
Has anyone experienced similar issues?
Stovepipes and erratic ejection in my Shield are documented in my thread. If you look around the net, you'll find scattered reports of issues similar to yours and mine, some more credible than others.
When I spoke with S&W about mine, they were not surprised. They've had it for a couple weeks now.
Send it in.
Thanks, Guys.
The gun will be sent in early next wqeek.
What is amazing is that the gun had 1000 rounds through it before these issues began to surface.
Extractor bounce.
Those loads that you're shooting are hot as hell...
I would imagine you need a new recoil spring, extractor spring and extractor.
The 147 Rangers are pretty mild, all standard pressure and under 1000fps according to Winchester pubs.
The BHA 115 TAC-XP is a +P load, but runs only ~1200fps and feels much milder than that. The added pressure from the longer bullet and seating depth doesn't translate to the shooter in my experience.
Skintop1911 is correct. The Black Hills Tac XP ammo chronographed at about 1070 feet per second out of a 4" barrel. Even though it is listed as +P, it really isn't that hot.
I remember something that Grant posted about the M&P 9mm fullsize sometimes having issues with Winchester cases. Maybe this is a weird similar thing.
1. You more likely experience issues with Winchester brass (as it has a smaller rim.
Oops, somehow I missed reading this post before.
Winchester brass has a smaller rim?
Disappointing but interesting. This would certainly explain why the Shield had the issues with the Black Hills and Ranger ammo since both use Winchester Brass, and why it functioned flawlessly with the non-Winchester brassed ammo that myself and a friend fired after the malfunctions.
Sorry guys, im recovering from eye surgery and i could have sworn i just saw ranger 127 grain. Damned eyeballs.
I still say you're suffering from extractor bounce though. :)
Oops, somehow I missed reading this post before.
Winchester brass has a smaller rim?
Disappointing but interesting. This would certainly explain why the Shield had the issues with the Black Hills and Ranger ammo since both use Winchester Brass, and why it functioned flawlessly with the non-Winchester brassed ammo that myself and a friend fired after the malfunctions.
Winchester brass pops up in a lot of intermittent gun issues; or so it seems from memory.
I saw the exact same thing with a Walther PPS...why do pistols with short barrels seem to have these problems?
A belated update. I sent the 9mm Shield back to S&W for repair in mid September and got it back a few weeks ago. The return invoice said that they replaced the extractor and replaced the recoil guide. It also said that the gun was range tested and met specs.
Due to work and family issues, I did not get the chance to shoot it until today. I fired around 350 rounds through the gun, including about 120 rounds of Federal 147 grain HST JHP, 50-100 rounds of American Eagle 147 grain ball ammo, and 150-170 rounds of Winchester.
I had two of the same type of failures to extract with the Winchester that I had previously experienced. Below is a photo of one of the malfunctions where the extractor seems to have lost hold of the case in midst of extraction:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/Octshieldmalf_zps81ed1e61.jpg
For whatever reason, Winchester is the only type of ammo that gives my Shield issues.
Is this a problem that is generally only produced when using Winchester brass? Or rather, is there anyone running into this problem when using brass other than Winchester?
After my buddy and I both experienced "delayed ignitions", where we were peppered with burning powder, I quit using Winchester White Box, so I can't really comment on how Winchester acts in my M&P. I've shot mostly Federal Champion and Aguila, with no problems through the classes I've attended.
If this is a problem of extractor bounce, is there a spring out there that will last longer before wearing out?
In that top photo it looks like the extractor had to rip out of that case rim pretty hard.
Have you tried flashing or polishing the chamber? Otherwise I'd agree it's the extractor or the extractor spring. I remember some full-size guys having this issue and fixing it with a APEX extractor. That said I would hope any of the above would have been fixed by S&W when it was sent it.
Is this a problem that is generally only produced when using Winchester brass? Or rather, is there anyone running into this problem when using brass other than Winchester?
I've only had the problem with Winchester. I think that Skintop1911 has experienced it with other brands of ammo. He sent his Shield back to S&W once and it still had issues when he got it back. He details thses problems in an epically good thread. In it he starts to encounter similar problems to me on page 2 in post #39: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=135400&highlight=shield&page=2 On pages 4 and 5 of the thread we have other boardmembers posting similar experiences and pictures.
I probably should have posted my update into that thread. I guess if I copied my experiences there now it could be considered postwhoring (I don't know which smiley to post after that comment )
In that top photo it looks like the extractor had to rip out of that case rim pretty hard.
Have you tried flashing or polishing the chamber? Otherwise I'd agree it's the extractor or the extractor spring. I remember some full-size guys having this issue and fixing it with a APEX extractor. That said I would hope any of the above would have been fixed by S&W when it was sent it.
I have not tried polishing the chamber--embarrasingly that is a bit beyond what I am comfortable doing.
The gun still malfunctioned with Winchester after I got it back from S&W where it was sent for exactly this reason.
Some of the ammo that it had the problems with were Ranger Talon 147 grain JHP and Black Hills factory ammo that used Winchester cases, both of which are premium ammo, so it is not really an issue of Winchester white box.
taekwondopreacher- i had this same exact issue with winchester white box 115gr, winchester ranger 147gr, blacer brass 115gr, and american eagle 124gr. Like previously stated it almost seems as if the extractor is losing the casing halfway through the ejection process
Crow Hunter
10-28-13, 08:16
Does it happen with both a full and a partially empty magazine?
Could it be the magazine stack pushing the case out of the extractor before the cycle is complete?
For whatever reason, Winchester is the only type of ammo that gives my Shield issues.
Not shocked about the Winchester. The case has too shallow of a rim and does NOT work well with S&W extractors. So stay away from Winchester ammo and you should be good.
C4
jerrysimons
10-28-13, 09:46
I have posted my experience in Skintop's thread, https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=135400
Exact same malfunction using Federal, PMC Bronze, and CCI Blazer Brass.
The parts are marked so I can tell if they get replaced, I just need to get around to sending it back to S&W. I don't have high hopes after Skintop's and Ed's experiences.
Not shocked about the Winchester. The case has too shallow of a rim and does NOT work well with S&W extractors. So stay away from Winchester ammo and you should be good.
While my particular 9mm Shield is only having problems with Winchester ammo or ammo using Winchester casings, other people have experienced the exact same thing with their Shields and other brands of ammo.
I am sticking to Federal HST for carry ammo and watching the gun to see if these issues crop up with other brands of ammo. I'm not carrying the gun until I have fired more rounds through it.
I can live with it if it is only an issue with Winchester ammo.
I had similar issues with my 9mm M&P, but it occurred with several brands of ammo. However, in the M&P's situation the case wasn't even extracted and only the rim of the case stuck out of the chamber. This seemed to occur once every 200-400 rounds. Randy Lee was nice enough to install one of their failure resistant extractors in the gun when the product was in the pre-release phase, and this corrected the issue.
In the old days, a malfunction every 200-400 rounds might have been considered acceptable. Most people these days would not consider this to be acceptable.
My Shield seems to be experiencing this extraction issue every 50-100 rounds with Winchester ammo or ammo using Winchester cases.
Does it happen with both a full and a partially empty magazine?
Could it be the magazine stack pushing the case out of the extractor before the cycle is complete?
It could be.
It has always happened with a full or partially empty magazine. It has happened with several different magazines.
Perhaps the extractor spring is weak. There was no note about the extractor spring being replaced; only the extractor. Perhaps the chamber needs to be polished as well.
The problem with my particular Shield is that it only happens with Winchester ammo and seems to only happen every 50-100 rounds. So if Smith & Wesson is not using Winchester ammo to test it and only fires a magazine or two, the gun will seem fine.
I have pretty close to 1k through my shield. Have never had this happen, but I don't shoot winchester.
I've only had the problem with Winchester. I think that Skintop1911 has experienced it with other brands of ammo. He sent his Shield back to S&W once and it still had issues when he got it back. He details thses problems in an epically good thread. In it he starts to encounter similar problems to me on page 2 in post #39: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=135400&highlight=shield&page=2 On pages 4 and 5 of the thread we have other boardmembers posting similar experiences and pictures.
Here's my list. I've attempted to identify a common variable in manufacturer, weight, velocity, or other attribute but cannot.
Herters/CCI Blazer 115gr TNJ, no sku, erratic ejection
Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-EXP, erratic ejection, stoppage
Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-XTP +P, stoppage
Federal 124gr JHP HydraShok, #P9HS1G, erratic ejection, stoppage
Winchester 124gr FMJ NATO, #Q4138, stoppage
Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ, #53620, erratic ejection, stoppage
Federal 147gr JHP HydraShok, #P9HS2G, stoppage
Federal 147gr JHP HST, #P9HST2, stoppage
While my particular 9mm Shield is only having problems with Winchester ammo or ammo using Winchester casings, other people have experienced the exact same thing with their Shields and other brands of ammo.
They could have something out of spec. The clue that yours is ammo related (specifically) is that your gun runs with other ammo.
I had similar issues with my 9mm M&P, but it occurred with several brands of ammo. However, in the M&P's situation the case wasn't even extracted and only the rim of the case stuck out of the chamber. This seemed to occur once every 200-400 rounds. Randy Lee was nice enough to install one of their failure resistant extractors in the gun when the product was in the pre-release phase, and this corrected the issue.
S&W had a serious extractor problem. They have updated their extractor and for the most part fixed the issue (assuming you aren't using Winny ammo). Even with Winny ammo, you might only see a failure to extract once every 500-1,000rds.
In the old days, a malfunction every 200-400 rounds might have been considered acceptable. Most people these days would not consider this to be acceptable.
Rounds without malfunctions is an interesting topic. How many rounds without a malfunction is acceptable? 200? 400? 1,000? The answer is, it is up to the person.
I am kind of the opinion that it is probably a good idea to stay away from 147gr ammo in sub compact guns. It is hard for little auto loaders to feed this grain weight. Not that they cannot do it, but you are looking for a malfunction IMHO.
YMMV.
C4
The Shield malfunction photos remind me of the same issues that I experienced with KelTecs. Almost all malfunctions were extractor related. Increasing extractor spring tension and relieving the inside surface of the extractor body(not claw)fixed the problem in every case.
Actually doing either or worked, but I settled on both as I went along. I "fixed" 7 of their pistols with this method.
Wolff offers an "extractor pack" containing numerous springs for semi-autos. See it under their general category.
I am kind of the opinion that it is probably a good idea to stay away from 147gr ammo in sub compact guns. It is hard for little auto loaders to feed this grain weight. Not that they cannot do it, but you are looking for a malfunction IMHO.
I had never heard this before. If Grant didn't have such a high standing here, I might dismiss this as little more than internet rumors.
How much truth is there to this? I've yet to have issues in running 147gr HSTs through either a PM9 or a G26, but I have not run that grain weight exclusively - too expensive.
My G26 with 147gr HSTs is my EDC. Am I making a mistake?
GUNSLINGER733
10-31-13, 22:30
I've shot mine with win white box(today at 50yards at 13.5"x7" steel) did great. Shot some cci blazer. No problems and a 100 rounds of some handloads I did for a month ago with no problems so far but it's only been 5 days I've had it
I had never heard this before. If Grant didn't have such a high standing here, I might dismiss this as little more than internet rumors.
How much truth is there to this? I've yet to have issues in running 147gr HSTs through either a PM9 or a G26, but I have not run that grain weight exclusively - too expensive.
My G26 with 147gr HSTs is my EDC. Am I making a mistake?
I don't consider the G26 or M&P compact to be little guns. Little guns are typically single stack variants. I have a SIG P5 that will not load 147gr 9mm (had to have a reliability package done on it so that it could).
Longer bullets in smaller guns CAN be less reliable than say a 124gr bullet. Every gun is different and it is important to run your carry ammo through your gun.
C4
PM9 is a micro.
Yep, I know. As they say, Chit Happens! :D
I did do a quick look around the net and there are people that have had issues with 147gr feeding or mag issues in their Kahr's.
My guess is that it will be luck of the draw. I would also like to see someone shoot 500rds of 147gr HP and see how it goes. Most people (because of the cost) probably shoot 50rds and call it a day (if that).
C4
Yep, I know. As they say, Chit Happens! :D
I did do a quick look around the net and there are people that have had issues with 147gr feeding or mag issues in their Kahr's.
My guess is that it will be luck of the draw. I would also like to see someone shoot 500rds of 147gr HP and see how it goes. Most people (because of the cost) probably shoot 50rds and call it a day (if that).
C4
Yes it does sound familiar; folks with Kahrs than cannot hand cycle a 147 grain.
My PM9 had mag problems, but no feeding problems. Most of its diet consisted of WWB 115gr. The HSTs I ran through it (124gr and 147gr) showed no issues, but again the round count was small.
I did set out to buy 500 rounds of 147gr HST to test & train with, but in actuality I only picked up about 400. Ran them through multiple guns (PM9, G26, G19, Beretta 92). Not all guns were mine. No issues.
I've got a little over a box left, and I'm looking for more. I also have some 124gr HST (the non- +P variety). They also feed well, but they never made Docs list, so for now it's my fall back ammo.
It was once explained to me thusly by an engineer-type, which I now paraphrase:
When you downsize guns, you're trying to make them do the same things in smaller spaces, in shorter time intervals, with greater forces, less resistance, and closer to thresholds. Good design keeps variables in balance, but there's a lot more going on that can go wonky. Add now consumer demand for that gun to work, but not cost too much.
Smaller guns that maintain critical weights, dims, and attributes of their larger siblings do better...G17/G26, M&P and "C" model, others. Make the departure a little greater and the results aren't as good...G21/G36, M&P full size and Shield, others.
Put the right variables together for the perfect storm and any gun will fail. The critical question is how many variables have to accumulate, and to what extent, before a problem occurs.
This is why it's essential for people to function test their life support gear as deeply and intensely as they can.
1_click_off
11-01-13, 19:32
Yes it does sound familiar; folks with Kahrs than cannot hand cycle a 147 grain.
If a Kahr cannot cycle a 147gr bullet, there is almost certainly an issue with the recoil spring. I had this issue with my PM45. It also stove piped. The spring was actually too long and would coil bind if trying to eject loaded ammo before the lead would clear the chamber. Called Kahr and they sent a new spring. New spring was much longer. Called them back and they told me there is no standard length, just cut a 1/8 coil off until the bullet cycles. Then clip 1/8 off until it cycles when shooting it. My PM9 has ran perfect since I have had it. 500rds of mixed ammo. Just some info for those that run Kahrs.
Ballistic Agency
11-04-13, 14:43
The two Shields I own have a tad less chamber support than I like. I haven't measured, but it seems the chambers may be a bit larger than spec too. I assume this is done to aid in reliability.
The brass from +P ammo extracts with more difficulty when fired from my Shields which I think is caused by less support and higher pressures.
I reload and have found that Winchester brass wears out faster for me. It may be softer brass than other manufacturers.
Combine the two and you have increased extraction problems... Especially in a small gun where there is less margin for error due to slide velocity.
Just my two cents.
I had a T&E Shield that had over 5000 rounds through it, almost exclusively 147 AE or Gold Dot with nary a problem. My personal shield has somewhere between 500 and 1000. I have had two failure to extracts out of it with 147 grain Blazer Aluminum case, none with the others. FWIW, we have 30 Kahr PM9s in service, running 147 Gold Dot. We do see malfunctions with it, but not what I would call epidemic. Springs are probably due for a change in them, which may alleviate the problem. Best bet is to find the load your particular gun likes and buy a good supply of it. Hope you get it worked out and find a load that suits your blaster!
Likewise, I have over 200 rounds of Federal 147 grain HST through my 9mm Shield and a similar number of American Eagle 147 grain FMJ without an issue.
I probably have 200 rounds of Winchester Ranger 147 grain JHP through my Kahr PM9 without an issue.
However, I still agree with the statement below regarding smaller guns and possible issues:
It was once explained to me thusly by an engineer-type, which I now paraphrase:
When you downsize guns, you're trying to make them do the same things in smaller spaces, in shorter time intervals, with greater forces, less resistance, and closer to thresholds. Good design keeps variables in balance, but there's a lot more going on that can go wonky. Add now consumer demand for that gun to work, but not cost too much.
Smaller guns that maintain critical weights, dims, and attributes of their larger siblings do better...G17/G26, M&P and "C" model, others. Make the departure a little greater and the results aren't as good...G21/G36, M&P full size and Shield, others.
Put the right variables together for the perfect storm and any gun will fail. The critical question is how many variables have to accumulate, and to what extent, before a problem occurs.
This is why it's essential for people to function test their life support gear as deeply and intensely as they can.
What variables are in greater play with the 147gr loadings than in other weights?
What variables are in greater play with the 147gr loadings than in other weights?
I don't know. I just quoted you in that passage above because it sounded like it made sense :D
Seriously, I had an HK P-7M8 that would not run reliably with Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+, nor the Winchester Ranger 147 grain. The gun was designed around the standard 123 grain 9mm load, and I suspect this may be the case with some other 9mms--especially older guns that were designed before there were 147 grain loads on the market.
I think that whole thing you wrote about guns reduced in size being having the potential to be more tempermental than the full sized version makes sense. You definitely see it in the 1911 platform.
I don't know. I just quoted you in that passage above because it sounded like it made sense :D
Seriously, I had an HK P-7M8 that would not run reliably with Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+, nor the Winchester Ranger 147 grain. The gun was designed around the standard 123 grain 9mm load, and I suspect this may be the case with some other 9mms--especially older guns that were designed before there were 147 grain loads on the market.
I think that whole thing you wrote about guns reduced in size being having the potential to be more tempermental than the full sized version makes sense. You definitely see it in the 1911 platform.
Tiny guns with big bullets is generally the least reliable combo. Doesn't mean that it can't work and know lots of people will step forward and advise that it does.
Another issue though is the hole in the HP ammo. Some guns simply do not like the angle it creates. So again, it is important to run your carry ammo through your pistol to verify that all works well together.
C4
Well, I got the Shield back after its second trip to S&W for repair.
This time they replaced the barrel, the ejector, and the ejector spring.
I took the gun shooting. Sadly, it did not make it through 70 rounds before it had a failure to extract that wound up with the empty case backwards in the ejection port, which prevented the gun from loading the next round.
I started with a 50 round box of Remington 115 FMJ and the gun ran fine. Next I fired about 10 rounds of the Federal HST 147 grain JHP, just to see where the new barrel grouped. Then I went to a box of Federal 115 grain FMJ and the gun had the ejection failure with the first or second round.
Below are two photos of the same malfunction:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/shield2014malf1_zps0ffb0aed.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/shield2014malf2_zps1d21123d.jpg
Well, I got the Shield back after its second trip to S&W for repair.
This time they replaced the barrel, the ejector, and the ejector spring.
I took the gun shooting. Sadly, it did not make it through 70 rounds before it had a failure to extract that wound up with the empty case backwards in the ejection port, which prevented the gun from loading the next round.
I started with a 50 round box of Remington 115 FMJ and the gun ran fine. Next I fired about 10 rounds of the Federal HST 147 grain JHP, just to see where the new barrel grouped. Then I went to a box of Federal 115 grain FMJ and the gun had the ejection failure with the first or second round.
Below are two photos of the same malfunction:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/shield2014malf1_zps0ffb0aed.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/shield2014malf2_zps1d21123d.jpg
Interesting. My first thought is to make sure that the slide is square and true. Then, I would check that the bore is centered in the barrel.
Usually we see this type malfunction in Glock's and it is due to spring being too stiff and or the ejection port window being too high. Just for fun, lock the slide back for about a week and then give it another go.
C4
Im assuming you meant extractor and spring?
I would look at the depth of the extractor - I noticed in one photo you posted, there was a dent in the rim form the extractor, but was it really on there well? Maybe its not fully engaging the rim every time?
Even though it was replaced I would check the tension also. Has the action spring been replaced? Maybe they wear out quickly on the shield and need replaced - my thinking is that slide speed may be getting faster with age resulting in increased rate of malfunctions with rounds fired?
I have a shield, but don't know much about the engineering of it, or have anywhere near the background Grant does, just sharing some thoughts that may help.
The Shield actually works worse since I sent it back. Before it would fail to extract winchester cased ammo. Now it is getting horizontal stovepipes where ejected case doesn't clear the ejection port with a wide variety of other ammo.
Usually we see this type malfunction in Glock's and it is due to spring being too stiff and or the ejection port window being too high. Just for fun, lock the slide back for about a week and then give it another go.
Does the Shield in 40 S&W have the same recoil spring assembly as the one in 9mm? They replaced the recoil spring assembly the first time I sent it back--and then things got worse. I can't see any markings on the recoil spring assembly.
But if they somehow got a 40 S&W recoil spring assembly mixed up with a 9mm one, I would expect more problems than I have experienced.
Im assuming you meant extractor and spring?
I would look at the depth of the extractor - I noticed in one photo you posted, there was a dent in the rim form the extractor, but was it really on there well? Maybe its not fully engaging the rim every time?
Even though it was replaced I would check the tension also. Has the action spring been replaced? Maybe they wear out quickly on the shield and need replaced - my thinking is that slide speed may be getting faster with age resulting in increased rate of malfunctions with rounds fired?
The recoil spring assembly and extractor was replaced on the first trip back.
On the second and most recent trip back they replaced the extractor, extractor spring, and barrel.
So I am on the third extractor.
If that is walmart federal 115 Fmj . That stuff is very underpowered. Run some Winchester white box, should fix your problem. I have a few guns that don't like federal 115 due to it not being powerful enough to fully make the slide go fully rearward for it to cycle correctly. To test this out, just load one round into your magazine. If it doesn't lock back the slide after you shoot it. It's the crappy ammo.
If that is walmart federal 115 Fmj . That stuff is very underpowered. Run some Winchester white box, should fix your problem. I have a few guns that don't like federal 115 due to it not being powerful enough to fully make the slide go fully rearward for it to cycle correctly. To test this out, just load one round into your magazine. If it doesn't lock back the slide after you shoot it. It's the crappy ammo.
The gun has displayed similar extraction issues with Winchester White box and even Federal HST 147 Grain. It took over 120 rounds of HST before the problem showed up with that ammo. I clean the gun every few hundred rounds.
I am beginning to think that it is some issue with an overly powerful recoil spring in the recoil spring assembly.
The Shield actually works worse since I sent it back. Before it would fail to extract winchester cased ammo. Now it is getting horizontal stovepipes where ejected case doesn't clear the ejection port with a wide variety of other ammo.
Does the Shield in 40 S&W have the same recoil spring assembly as the one in 9mm? They replaced the recoil spring assembly the first time I sent it back--and then things got worse. I can't see any markings on the recoil spring assembly.
But if they somehow got a 40 S&W recoil spring assembly mixed up with a 9mm one, I would expect more problems than I have experienced.
The 9mm and 40 are the same.
Any dual recoil spring is extremely stiff. So just try locking the slide back for a week as a simple (possible) fix.
C4
Singlestack Wonder
03-09-14, 20:23
Deleted....
The 9mm and 40 are the same.
Any dual recoil spring is extremely stiff. So just try locking the slide back for a week as a simple (possible) fix.
That does make some sense. I was not having these types of malfunctions before I sent it back the first time. At that point it was failing to fully extract the Winchester cased ammo. When they worked on it the first time they replaced the recoil spring assembly.
However I did put a few hundred rounds through it after getting it back, so I would think that would make work it in. In fact I put over 100 rounds of the Federal 147 grain HSTs through it before I experienced a problem with that round. I would think if there was going to be a problem it would have happened early on.
What would make sense is if that the gun had problems with Winchester cased ammo and when I sent it back they replaced the recoil spring assembly--and this replacement of the recoil spring assembly is making it have the new issues with other ammo where the slide seems to catch the empty case before it can clear the ejection port.
However, the gun had a few hundred rounds fired through it with the new recoil spring assembly in place. So I would think that would have allowed the new recoil spring assembly to wear in.
Anyway, I am leaving the Shield with the slide locked back for a while.
Sub compact pistols can have issues due to increased slide velocities and increased angles of feed and extraction. If there is a burr under the extractor or a weak extractor spring it could be limiting purchase on the case by limiting the range of motion. Find a good smith to check things out. Undersized rim or not it should feed and extract.
Sent from my SCH-R930 using Tapatalk 2
Well, I got the Shield back after its second trip to S&W for repair.
This time they replaced the barrel, the ejector, and the ejector spring.
I took the gun shooting. Sadly, it did not make it through 70 rounds before it had a failure to extract
Your level of patience vastly exceeds mine - I'd have sold that pistol one malfunction after the first S&W visit.
Your level of patience vastly exceeds mine - I'd have sold that pistol one malfunction after the first S&W visit.
This is funny to me. Can you go over to the 1911 forum and look at the Hilton thread please? You will surely piss off a bunch of 1911 fans when you tell them that they should sell their 1911 after only one malfunction.
A Glock, M&P, etc cost the manufacturer about $100-$150 dollars to produce. How much reliability do you expect for that amount of money? No malfunctions? One per hundred? One per thousand? One per ten thousand??
C4
This is funny to me. Can you go over to the 1911 forum and look at the Hilton thread please? You will surely piss off a bunch of 1911 fans when you tell them that they should sell their 1911 after only one malfunction.
My SA PRO's (five of them) never hiccup'd, not one of them even once, through many countless cases of ammo over the years by every manufacturer that sells the stuff. My Colt GSP went back to Colt once for some issues, came back unresolved, got sold.
A Glock, M&P, etc cost the manufacturer about $100-$150 dollars to produce. How much reliability do you expect for that amount of money? No malfunctions? One per hundred? One per thousand? One per ten thousand??
I purchased my Gen2 G19 back in the mid-90's - when they were presumably even cheaper to produce. It hasn't missed a beat once.
There are lemons out there and I'm not going to hang onto a gun and excuse poor performance simply because of how little it cost the manufacturer to produce it, sorry.
My SA PRO's (five of them) never hiccup'd, not one of them even once, through many countless cases of ammo over the years by every manufacturer that sells the stuff. My Colt GSP went back to Colt once for some issues, came back unresolved, got sold.
Ken Hackathorn talks about this thing called "malfunction amnesia." Many people have it (especially 1911 shooters). If you have never had a malfunction (either magazine or ammo induced) you either haven't shot enough or don't train much with your pistol IMHO.
I purchased my Gen2 G19 back in the mid-90's - when they were presumably even cheaper to produce. It hasn't missed a beat once.
There are lemons out there and I'm not going to hang onto a gun and excuse poor performance simply because of how little it cost the manufacturer to produce it, sorry.
Have 4 of the same gun. One of them exhibits the phase 3 malfunction. The other three have have a malfunction once in awhile.
You have to realize that gun manufacturers expect and accept that their guns will malfunction (within reason). It is somewhat silly to expect a VERY cheaply made gun to be 100% all the time (sorry).
C4
Ken Hackathorn talks about this thing called "malfunction amnesia." Many people have it (especially 1911 shooters). If you have never had a malfunction (either magazine or ammo induced) you either haven't shot enough or don't train much with your pistol IMHO.
I don't recall ever stating I had not had a malfunction, I merely stated the guns I've owned that have not (and was informed that I apparently have amnesia). The ones that are problematic were sold, as I would do with any gun that demonstrated such propensities. I may not shoot as much as you, or anywhere near what is deemed "enough". I've gone through 3K rounds in the past two weeks, 1K in the class this coming weekend. I guess I should belly up to the bar and learn to shoot a bit more but that might eat into my time swinging a fly rod which actually pays bills for me.
It is somewhat silly to expect a VERY cheaply made gun to be 100% all the time (sorry).
C4
Where's the dollar threshold for you?
How many trips back to the manufacturer is enough before it's within reason to move on to a different product (or a different one of the same thing that runs better)?
Let's keep this thread about Ed's Shield.
Grant started an excellent thread on malfunction intervals and reasonable expectations here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?144441-How-many-rounds-until-a-malfunction-is-deemed-quot-acceptable-quot
The 1911 thread discussing Hilton's article is also on point.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?148750-Hilton-Yam-s-path-away-from-the-1911
I don't recall ever stating I had not had a malfunction, I merely stated the guns I've owned that have not (and was informed that I apparently have amnesia). The ones that are problematic were sold, as I would do with any gun that demonstrated such propensities. I may not shoot as much as you, or anywhere near what is deemed "enough". I've gone through 3K rounds in the past two weeks, 1K in the class this coming weekend. I guess I should belly up to the bar and learn to shoot a bit more but that might eat into my time swinging a fly rod which actually pays bills for me.
Where's the dollar threshold for you?
How many trips back to the manufacturer is enough before it's within reason to move on to a different product (or a different one of the same thing that runs better)?
PM sent.
C4
Ed, have you disassembled the magazines to check for proper "attachment" of mag spring to follower? I had six Smith .45 m&p mags with the springs installed backwards; others reported the same thing. The tapered 9mm case has a tendency to nose dive anyway, and incorrectly assembled mags might be your problem. About your Shield and Smith's service dept., my opinion is that the technicians really weren't able to diagnose this issue and just changed out parts.
bsmith_shoot
03-17-14, 12:02
I just recently received my M&P shield 9, and have only ran 240 rounds through it to date, I'm going to keep an eye out for this issue. As of now, it's ran flawless.
Ed, have you disassembled the magazines to check for proper "attachment" of mag spring to follower? I had six Smith .45 m&p mags with the springs installed backwards; others reported the same thing. The tapered 9mm case has a tendency to nose dive anyway, and incorrectly assembled mags might be your problem.
I'm not experiencing nosedives or feeding problems, but extraction issues. To make matters worse, the gun was fine for the first 1200-1800 rounds. Though in that time frame I did not fire many rounds of Winchester or winchester cased ammo. After that I noticed the extraction problems with the Winchester 147 grain Ranger Talon & BH 115 grain that used a Winchester case. I sent it back to S&W once and it came back worse, I sent it back a second time and there was no improvement. If there was an issue with magazine springs that were causing issues, it would have been apparant much earlier.
About your Shield and Smith's service dept., my opinion is that the technicians really weren't able to diagnose this issue and just changed out parts.
Oh yes! I definitely agree with the quote above.
Psalms144.1
03-23-14, 09:06
To make matters worse, the gun was fine for the first 1200-1800 rounds. Welcome to the world of G19 owners who bought in the 2010-2012 era - my 3rd Gen OD G19 was flawless, ran like a sewing machine, until about the 2,000 round mark, at which point it went all kinds of sideways on extraction and ejection. I'm very impressed with your patience on this one, please keep us in the loop on how it turns out (and thanks - I was just about to start the search for a Shield 9mm as a possible replacement to my PM9 backup, just to keep SFA triggers standard with my G19)...
(and thanks - I was just about to start the search for a Shield 9mm as a possible replacement to my PM9 backup, just to keep SFA triggers standard with my G19)...
If you get a Shield, I'd love to see you start a running thread like others here, and Greg's "Break my..." threads. Several more GTG folks running those for various guns could contribute much to the knowledge base.
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