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ASH556
09-09-13, 12:59
I have my rifles and shotgun where they need to be. I thought I was all set with my pistols, but lately I'm beginning to wonder. I have a pair of 9mm M&P's. One sits at home with an AAC EVO-9 silencer, Surefire X300, DG switch, and Crimson Trace grips...it's a really nice setup. The other is a daily carry gun with factory night sights and an X300 light.

Here's my thing, my wife is not a gun person. She'll shoot something if I put it in her hands, but she's requested that I pick one, show her how to use it, and let it be. So, that being said, I don't think the suppressed M&P setup is going to be that gun...it just has too much going on. I set it up with the light and laser and DG switch so it was all ready to go just by picking it up, but I think there are some issues with it:

1) It's big, physically and therefore a little intimidating
2) The suppressor is registered to me individually and not on my trust because I got it before we were together, so her using it, especially if I'm out of town could present legal issues.
3) Because if its size, she's also very unlikely to take it with her while walking the dog, baby, etc.
4) If it were to malfunction, she wouldn't know how to clear it, and is not likely to train to the point where it would become the immediate response that it needs to be.

So, with all of that said, there's another issue:

My carry M&P is not making me happy in the accuracy department. Yes, I know it's somewhat of a "known" issue and I could pay for a barrel, etc. Still, I'm wondering if I'm better off switching platforms. I initially tried to defend the M&P and have shot pretty good groups with it at 25 yds, like the 4" group shown below with one "flier." However, after shooting the pistol some more including some time on sand bags, I've discovered the following:

1) The gun is very ammo sensitive in terms of accuracy
2) Those "fliers" weren't me. Even on sandbags, the pistol would always throw one or two rounds that would open the group from 3 or 4 inches to 6 or 8 inches @ 25yds. As a civilian carrying the pistol, that's not a good margin of error to begin with.

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/20130125_202318.jpg

So here's what I'm thinking:

Ditch both M&P's with all the mags, lasergrips, light (keep one X300), switch, etc.

Also ditch the 9mm silencer...probably not worth much, but I bet I could get $300 or so for it.

1) Buy an S&W 642 with Lasergrips and an Apex trigger kit for my wife. This will also serve as a good pocket carry gun for when we run out to the grocery store in the evenings and I have on basketball shorts or something.

My reasoning on the 642 beyond the general common sense about such things is my experience with my 55 year old mother. My stepdad travels a lot for work and she expressed interest in having a gun at home. I, of course, had some things in mind, but told her to meet me at the range. My idea was to let her shoot several different guns and choose the one she wanted (still within a certain criteria of quality weapons). She chose the 642 hands-down, but with a laser because her aging eyes didn't allow her to easily use the small sights. Once we got the pistol with laser grips set up for her, she was able to keep 5 shots inside a 2" group off-hand @ 7yds with a decent firing cadence. This is a woman who has never fired a pistol before and with just some brief coaching by me. I feel my wife would have a similar experience and the 642 would be much less intimidating.

2) Buy a new primary carry pistol for myself. Before switching to the M&P 2 years ago, I carried and shot it competition a Glock 19 for 8 years. It was a Gen3 gun, and never gave me a moment's trouble function-wise, but the grip was just something I never enjoyed. I mean, I could make it work, but it took work. Before switching to the M&P I considered having a grip reduction done to remove the hump, but I decided to try the M&P instead.

I figure with selling both guns and all the other gear that should give me $1,300 or so without the silencer...$1600 or so with the silencer.

A new 642 from work is like $370 + CT grips pro-deal @ $120 + Apex spring kit $26 = $516.

So, that leaves me $784 to play with to get a new carry pistol. Preferably that would include a holster and a good set of sights too, but I can fudge +/- $100.

Bottom line questions:

1) Does the 642 setup sound to you like the better way to go for the wife?

2) Recommendations on a new primary carry pistol for me? I work at a shop and handle the stupid things all day, so I can talk myself into and out of all of them...one of the curses of the job I guess. Part of me says just go back to a Glock, but I really don't want to deal with that stupid grip...the pros are availability of mags, parts, and holsters, though.

I don't care for a DA/SA gun, but the accuracy of something like a Sig appeals to me. The pistol must have a rail for an X300. Really prefer to stay with 9mm. Availability of mags and spares is a priority with anything I choose. XD is not a contender. Maybe a PPQ, but I've read some striker issues with them, and am not sure about the differences with the Gen 1 and Gen 2.

Thanks in advance for any and all input!

gtmtnbiker98
09-09-13, 13:09
J-frames are poor choices for new shooters and truth be told, are poor choices for those not willing to put forth the time and effort to master. I'd let her choose the handgun and you support that choice. Just my .02.

Pi3
09-09-13, 13:10
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104659&page=20
Why not just get a storm lake fitted barrel? Won't that be less costly in the long run?

Father of 3
09-09-13, 13:14
Have you considered the 9c? From what I've read and experienced with my brother-in-laws 9c, the 9c's don't tend to have the same accuracy issues as the FS models.

Is the threaded barrel for your other M&P from S&W or aftermarket?

Test its accuracy out to the same distance w/o the suppressor and see what you get. If its better than your other, keep it as your primary CCW since its tricked out and sell the other to fund a 9c for the wifey.

Or sell the tricked out one and buy a 9c and a KKM fitted barrel for your current carry model. With the laser grips and the can, you will have enough left over to buy a new barrel and maybe some night sights for the wifes.

Good luck.

BTL BRN
09-09-13, 14:01
J-frames are poor choices for new shooters and truth be told, are poor choices for those not willing to put forth the time and effort to master. I'd let her choose the handgun and you support that choice. Just my .02.

I tried the revolver route with my wife a few years back, somehow I inherited another wheelie along the way.

In other words, she didn't like it; she does however do very well with a G19.

ASH556
09-09-13, 14:04
Regarding the 642, the grips would be LG402 and the first box of ammo through the gun would be wadcutters. I did the same for my mother and my sister...neither had shot before and they both loved it. They were both much less comfortable with autos, which have less recoil.

I agree generally that handing someone with no experience and no training a small, light gun and just letting them run is a bad idea. However, stepping them through the process as I did with my mother generally yields the 642 as the best option. I'll get to the range with my mom's 642 and let my wife shoot it first to make sure she doesn't hate it...I'll let her shoot some other stuff too, but she's looking at it as a tool, not a comfortable, enjoyable thing.

Tennvol12345
09-09-13, 14:51
My wife does pretty well with her snub nose model 60. Bobbed hammer and trigger job from the performance center. Gun also has CTC grips and is loaded with Critical defense standard pressure rounds.

Wheel gun is the best option for her since she doesn't have the strength to manipulate the slide on a semi auto.

For reference she is 5'0 and 95 lbs.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

srcochran49
09-09-13, 15:15
I agree with the choice of a j frame Smith, and your plan to start off with wadcutters for your wife.

As for your carry gun, why not consider one of the HK models. Since you can purchase at a discount, they should fit your budget. A LEM trigger variant would eliminate the da/sa, if you dislike that.

RHINOWSO
09-09-13, 15:17
As others have said, J-frames are often a poor choice for casual shooters, women AND men.

Take her to the store and let her try some out, see what feels good in her hand, etc.

For you, I don't know. I use HKs Light LEMs primarily with some pocket gun carry / BUG options (442, LCP). I personally hate change just for changes sake.

I'd keep the suppressor, hard to get rid of any your gonna lose $$$.

But hey, it's a free country.

SteveS
09-09-13, 15:18
My wife has a S@W 642 and shoots it about every 3 years and she can shoot the J frame as good as it needs to shot.
The J frame is handy. It may not be the ultimate handgun to go to war with .

glocktogo
09-09-13, 15:42
I'd recommend a Shield or Kahr K9. Better grip size and still pretty simple. It seems that some people shoot J Frames very well and most don't. I'm a Master class IDPA shooter in Stock Service Revolver with a S&W Model 19, but I've never come close to shooting a J frame as well as any number of subcompact pistols.

C4IGrant
09-09-13, 16:33
Bottom line questions:

1) Does the 642 setup sound to you like the better way to go for the wife?

2) Recommendations on a new primary carry pistol for me? I work at a shop and handle the stupid things all day, so I can talk myself into and out of all of them...one of the curses of the job I guess. Part of me says just go back to a Glock, but I really don't want to deal with that stupid grip...the pros are availability of mags, parts, and holsters, though.

I don't care for a DA/SA gun, but the accuracy of something like a Sig appeals to me. The pistol must have a rail for an X300. Really prefer to stay with 9mm. Availability of mags and spares is a priority with anything I choose. XD is not a contender. Maybe a PPQ, but I've read some striker issues with them, and am not sure about the differences with the Gen 1 and Gen 2.

Thanks in advance for any and all input!

Pass on the J-frame. They have 12lbs trigger and 10lbs with the apex kit. They also kick hard so a female shooter will pass.

Look at the HK P2000 or P30 V1. The great thing about the P30 is that it is small like a G19 and has adjustable straps (which will better fit your wife). They are super accurate as well.

Another option for your wife is the M&P Shield. Great little gun and is very slim. Can be setup with a good 4.5-5LBS trigger and is accurate.


C4

walkin' trails
09-09-13, 18:40
I also agree that a 642 isn't necessarily the best gun to use to get someone interested in shooting. Nor is any small gun chambered for a fighting caliber. As was pointed out by others, let her handle some pieces at a gun store or shoot some range rentals. The Beretta 21A in 22LR. Is a great little gun for a lot of reasons, as is a Walther P22, but they are 22s so they may or may not work at a critical moment.

Psalms144.1
09-09-13, 19:26
Ash - you need to be confident with your carry pistol. If the M&P isn't "doing" it for you based on accuracy, you should find another option.

As others have pointed out, there are options that do NOT require a "retooling" of your carry suite. You could drop the coin on a fitted "duty" barrel from a premium maker and end your accuracy woes; alternatively you could "up gun" to the M&P 40 FS, which is generally free of accuracy issues. Likewise, the M&P 9c is noted for decent accuracy - and might be an acceptable solution.

If you want to refit yourself, the Gen4 Glock grips are a lot more "friendly" to folks who can't seem to make the 3rd Gen and earlier grips work for them - especially with a Grip Force Adapter, or the new Glock "beavertail" added. Unfortunately, it appears that reliability with 2010 and later 9mm Glocks is hit-and-miss, so you might not be moving forward at all. In my case, I had five bad G19s in a row, followed by a sixth that was problem free for 1000-1200 rounds, then started to have wonky extraction - which, in the interest of full disclosure, I'll admit was quickly cleared up by adding the APEX FRE.

HKs are wonderful pieces of machinery, but they are expensive, and harder to find aftermarket accessories for than Glocks or M&Ps. I've transitioned to the P2000 as a primary duty pistol as a replacement for my G19s, and mine is equipped with the LEM trigger - "enhanced" with a lighter FPB spring. I also have a P30 with the same trigger, but, honestly, I prefer the concealability of the P2000, and I actually shoot it slightly better than its larger brother. If I was looking for an open carry "duty" pistol, the P30L would probably get the nod. The LEM trigger is a unique creature that takes some getting used to, and you will be slightly slower if your idea of "good shooting" is standing flat foot shooting large targets at close range as fast as humanly possible. What the LEM gives up in raw speed, though, is MORE than compensated by what for me is a DRAMATIC increase in useable accuracy. I've never been more confident in my ability to be able to place rounds PRECISELY where I want them.

The decision on what YOU want to carry is extremely personal, and definitely a tough one - there are plenty of days I question my decision to go with the P2000 over the G19s I've shot for over a decade. But, every time I get on the line and ring steel at 100 yards, or drop EVERY round from a magazine into a 3x5 card at 10 yards or so, I remember why I switched.

WRT a pistol for your wife, you should let her guide that decision. My wife STRONGLY preferred a Detective Special to any semi-auto I put in her hand, but that was for carry versus shooting very much. J-frames are very difficult to shoot well - it floors me how many people will complain about the HK LEM being "hard to shoot," then recommend a 1 7/8" barreled, hard recoiling small revolver with a 12# trigger as "perfect" for inexperienced shooters...

Regards,

Kevin

PD Sgt.
09-09-13, 19:29
I went through something similar with my wife a few years ago. She did not like my duty pistol (a M&P with X300) nor could she feel comfortable with my nightstand gun, a CQB with X300 and CT grips.

I took her out to the range, and of all things she preferred my BUG, a pre lock Smith 640. Hands down her favorite, and at inside the home distances she is pretty good with it. I ended up putting some larger grips on it for her at her request. Now that 640 gets left at home with her along with a a few speedloaders. The nice thing is I did not have to get rid of anything. I actually picked up a 340 to replace my commandeered BUG.

My wife is by no means a gun person, so her being comfortable with her choice was key. In your case I would see if she is comfortable with the choices you are looking at. I would also look at a M&P 9c. It is the only autoloader my wife really liked, and it is a good size for carry. You could probably get two on your budget and have a consistency of arms. It would probably also allow you to keep the can.

lowbar
09-09-13, 19:36
Keep it simple. What about a Glock with a light on the rail?

ASH556
09-09-13, 19:46
Quick update:

I have a range date scheduled for 9AM Saturday before I start my shift (I work for one of the largest shops/indoor ranges in the area part-time on Saturdays) with my wife and my mom. Among other things, my wife will try my Mom's 642/CT grips, My M&P 9FS setup with the can/etc, a Walther PPS, a Glock 19, Glock 26, and anything else she wants to. We don't have a Shield in the rental case, but I might be able to scare one up for her to try out.

We talked through some things and options tonight. I had her shoulder the Benelli M1 18.5" She said it was long and heavy (That's what she said!:p) I also had her hold the M&P setup again...she commented that it was nice and easy to handle with or without the suppressor, but was too large for her to grab and take on a walk, etc. We'll see what happens Saturday.

As far as my pistol, someone recommended I try the factory threaded barrel and see how it shoots @ 25yds...this being a nightstand gun until now, I put a few hundred rounds through it with the suppressor to make sure it ran okay, and then just set it up. I've never really shot it for groups @ 25. I'll do that Saturday evening after my shift and if it groups well, I have the answer for myself...provided my wife doesn't end up choosing it for herself. If she does or if it doesn't group any better, I'll order one of the more accurate barrels for my M&P. I checked with G&R on the custom-fit Storm Lake barrels, but was told a 12 month waiting list. I've seen some decent results posted out of some of the drop-in options. I may look into those if the threaded barrel doesn't shoot well.

I basically reached the conclusion that the M&P was the pistol I really wanted to be carrying and shooting. I love everything about it except the accuracy. If that can be fixed with a new barrel, I'm in business!

djegators
09-09-13, 20:24
Glad that she is trying out a bunch of options. I always cringe when I think someone is picking out a gun for someone else. What she is comfortable with, willing to carry, and willing to practice with is very important.

edvin70
09-09-13, 21:14
ASH, try a couple of CZ's for EDC options if possible - the P-01 in particular, maybe a P-07 (although haven't fired any of their poly guns myself, truth be told). I carry a SP-01 but have been searching for a P-01 at a good price.


Great shooters and the 75 series guns are extremely reliable.