View Full Version : M&P refugee: I suck with Glocks
theblackknight
09-16-13, 02:12
Picked up a G4 17 and 19 last week and hit the range on Friday. I've been shooting M&P's for 5 years now and the switch was not pretty. Shot 400+ rounds with factory Fed(150),factory reloads(100) and my reloads between the 2 and got the same results. I did spend more time with the 19 since it's smaller and not as easy.
At 7y, first rounds of the day, trying to punch the "A" itself.
https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/1175441_301804323295256_461137569_n.jpg
about 100 rounds later. Using top of box as top of sight. 10r from 7,5 from 25.
https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1240221_301804289961926_665624256_n.jpg
After that, I tried fixing things . I rolled my thumb around even more getting the pistol centered so I had more "wall" on the backstrap and this fixed the shooting left part some(I used the L backstraps with M&P's). I started getting more finger on the trigger and it was better
so I shoot this at 15y at a semi rapidish pace.10 rounds,some doubles
https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1280871_301804303295258_823956194_n.jpg
Still high and left but I had a direction for dryfire at that point. Now sitting here, waiting on various kydex to arrive(Dark Star Gear is the man) and dryfiring stuff from the ready, I'm putting a lot of finger in before my sights stay still. The right side of the trigger is in the 1st crease. :eek:
Everything I've seen (like Surf's bomb ass videos that will hopefully see daylight again) from tuned up shooters is they are using the tip's pad, as did I with other guns with good results.
Is this my new normal? Any Glock shooters here use that much finger?
Also:FYI Factory reloads were LAX brand and were flashy as hell on the indoor range.
polymorpheous
09-16-13, 05:13
I took McNamara's TAPS course last fall.
He suggested more trigger finger for righties that are shooting left.
I guess it's just a Glock thing.
I have to do it, but I need all the help I can get.
Is your trigger serrated or smooth?
Using more/less trigger finger to compensate for shooting left/right is common. If you have large hands then maybe using the first crease is what you need to do. Actually I've never owned a glock, my striker fired experience is only with the M&P. I shoot a lot of Sig and 1911s so take this for what it's worth.
I'm sure it will just take time as with any transition. Looks like you're on the right path, rather than just blaming the gun and dumping it.
Crow Hunter
09-16-13, 08:00
I took McNamara's TAPS course last fall.
He suggested more trigger finger for righties that are shooting left.
I guess it's just a Glock thing.
I have to do it, but I need all the help I can get.
Is your trigger serrated or smooth?
I do the same thing.
I will shoot left of POA if I use just the pad of my finger.
If I put my whole finger into the trigger, I don't shoot left.
It seems to be because the Glock isn't relieved where the finger goes into the trigger. When you pull the trigger to the rear using just the pad of the finger, as you pull the trigger, the bottom of your finger may "bicep" towards the gun like you are doing a bicep flex. This will slightly push the gun to the left. When you put more finger in to the trigger, that part of the finger not be directly in like with the axis at 90* to the bullet travel so it won't push the gun to the left when it happens.
The more narrow and less meat you have on your fingers, the less of an effect this seems to have.
I noticed when I was shooting my brothers M&P that it is significantly relieved at the point that my finger enters the trigger guard. I could pretty much put my finger wherever I wanted to and not affect POI.
You're doing the right thing in terms of experimenting how much trigger finger to use. Ultimately it's all about learning how to press a glock trigger as opposed to the M&P trigger (I realize that's obvious because you've already figured that out - but it bears repeating).
When I started shooting glocks I had to drift my rear sights slightly to the right, but now I've re-centered most of the sights as I don't shoot to the left anymore. So basically you're starting down the same journey most glock shooters seem to experience to various degrees.
Lots of dry fire and I would advise working some B8's at 15, 20 or 25 yards. Slow fire accuracy stuff @ 25 yards isn't fun, but in my opinion it pays dividends in terms of trying to learn how to operate a new trigger pull without disturbing the sights. 25 yard shooting is brutal when it comes to exposing errors in trigger techniques.
Failure2Stop
09-16-13, 08:09
I am pretty much on the first knuckle of the trigger finger when shooting Glocks.
I find Surf's description of the Glock trigger to be spot-on, not sure if that video is still up though...
I use the pad or tip of my finger if that's helpful for reference.
The right side of the trigger is in the 1st crease. :eek:
Is this my new normal?
My bet is nope. I am one of those who started to give it more finger after taking P-Mac class, but not all the way up to crease. Wait till you start shooting splits. I think you'll find a compromise position between the two. BTW, I do think some Glocks shoot left, but my data is anecdotal and I could be wrong.
The fact that many Glocks shoot high is well known, you'll likely need a taller front.
I shot Glocks for ten years and did really well with 'em.
I gave up trying to shoot them like a proper gun and just did what I had to do to make hits.
Learn where your rounds are going to go, and aim the gun wherever you need to get the bullet to go where you want it. Much simpler and more effective than fighting with the grip and trigger.
My $.02,
A high crush grip with both thumbs forward is generally preferred nowadays, and there needs to be enough looseness in your trigger finger to pull the trigger straight to the rear. Whatever position your finger has to be in order to pull it straight to the rear every time... is the right position. Make sure to take the slack out of the trigger and re-position/perfect your sight picture before breaking the shot, then follow through by watching the sight lift off target.
Also, have you shot the pistol from a benchrest at 10 and 25 yards? If not, then you should try it even though most people don't bother with the practice these days. Once you see what groups you're getting from a stable rested position and where they are on paper, that will tell you what your mechanical accuracy goals are for your gun, and that you may need to adjust your sights to move the bullet impacts. (Pistol sights are generally aligned with the slide, not necessarily the bore.)
Then as you continue to shoot/train, work towards achieving that level of accuracy while standing unsupported.
theblackknight
09-16-13, 12:40
Is your trigger serrated or smooth?
I switched to the flat trigger for the 19 before ever firing it based off the rental guns.
Lots of dry fire and I would advise working some B8's at 15, 20 or 25 yards. Slow fire accuracy stuff @ 25 yards isn't fun, but in my opinion it pays dividends in terms of trying to learn how to operate a new trigger pull without disturbing the sights. 25 yard shooting is brutal when it comes to exposing errors in trigger techniques.
I'm also a fan of 25Y but wasnt spending much time there when I cant even punch letters at 7.
My $.02,
A high crush grip with both thumbs forward is generally preferred nowadays, and there needs to be enough looseness in your trigger finger to pull the trigger straight to the rear. Whatever position your finger has to be in order to pull it straight to the rear every time... is the right position. Make sure to take the slack out of the trigger and re-position/perfect your sight picture before breaking the shot, then follow through by watching the sight lift off target.
Also, have you shot the pistol from a benchrest at 10 and 25 yards? If not, then you should try it even though most people don't bother with the practice these days. Once you see what groups you're getting from a stable rested position and where they are on paper, that will tell you what your mechanical accuracy goals are for your gun, and that you may need to adjust your sights to move the bullet impacts. (Pistol sights are generally aligned with the slide, not necessarily the bore.)
Then as you continue to shoot/train, work towards achieving that level of accuracy while standing unsupported.
I did try different grip pressure before actually changing things, but it helped little.
I didnt bench the gun but did shoot it from prone with golf club grip. Whats the proper way to bench a Glock? I remember M&P's dont like being rested on the dust cover area
I'm also a fan of 25Y but wasnt spending much time there when I cant even punch letters at 7.
True, but I think you'd be ok with starting to work it at 15 yards.
Have you tried experimenting with different backstraps?
Also, is there a part of the trigger pull that is messing with you? Are you still getting used to where and how the glock trigger breaks versus the M&P?
I shot a friend's M&Pc a couple months back and the fact that the location and feel of the break was pretty foreign led to some unspectacular accuracy.
I didnt bench the gun but did shoot it from prone with golf club grip. Whats the proper way to bench a Glock? I remember M&P's dont like being rested on the dust cover area
FWIW, I have never had luck benching a glock. They shoot high if you rest the dustcover on something and I shoot worse with my wrists rested on a rolled up towel, bag, etc., than I do offhand.
I am pretty much on the first knuckle of the trigger finger when shooting Glocks.
I find Surf's description of the Glock trigger to be spot-on, not sure if that video is still up though...
Jack, If its the same video I am thinking of didn't he mention placing the upper most part of the finger on the trigger? Hook and curl method I believe Surf called it. I've got that vid saved on my kindle. It's the 'How to shoot a Glock well' video if not mistaken.
-Jax
I have done a lot of testing on finger position (for a right handed shooter). I have found that it matters VERY LITTLE. Note though, hand size plays a pretty big role in finger position on a Glock.
What matters more is making sure that the trigger ends FLAT at the end. So I concentrate feeling the RIGHT side of the trigger more than the left. You can add a thin piece of grip tape to the right side so you have a tactile feel to make you remember better.
Most ALL Glock shooters I encounter shoot the gun left and sometimes high left. On the high part, it is SOMETIMES the gun. My local training buddy has a G19 that shoots 6 inches or more high (and is a good shooter). So you might have to mess with some Dawson sights to get things corrected.
You probably already know this, but will share anyway incase someone else doesn't, if you take your weak hand thumb and push hard against the frame, it will help with shooting the gun to the left. This is of course a "bandaid" fix until you learn to manipulate the trigger FLAT to the rear.
Good luck.
C4
One of the things that helped me with 25yd shots was received from Surf's video and regarded keeping a "hook" in your trigger finger. Your sort of canting your knuckle to the right to isolate that joint, he explains it much better of course. This helped my shots more than how much finger I had on the face of the trigger.
/eta - what Jax said...
What is the "dustcover"?
The portion of the frame forward of the trigger guard that extends towards the muzzle.
Gutshot John
09-16-13, 14:06
It's all about the proper grip.
That said, all other things being equal, I shoot the M&P way better than the Glock.
Crow Hunter
09-16-13, 14:16
I have done a lot of testing on finger position (for a right handed shooter). I have found that it matters VERY LITTLE. Note though, hand size plays a pretty big role in finger position on a Glock.
C4
I agree.
I have found, with myself anyway, that it only does this with the 9mm/40 frames.
I don't see this with the .45 sized frames. I don't actually have the trigger finger reach to actually "bicep" the frame on the larger sized guns. My trigger finger doesn't go back far enough when pulling the trigger to do it.
My brother has larger hands and longer fingers than I but when he pulls the trigger his "finger bicep" isn't touching the frame so he doesn't notice it.
I have wanted to try shooting a Gen4 Glock 19 with the large frame insert and see if I could just put the pad of my finger on the trigger or not. I don't know anyone that has one. They all have Gen 3s.
theblackknight
09-16-13, 14:18
Also, is there a part of the trigger pull that is messing with you? Are you still getting used to where and how the glock trigger breaks versus the M&P?
No doubt. I would do demo's for customers with rental guns and be punching numbers at 7 to show them it's not the gun, but those guns have been shot a lot and the triggers are shot-in nice. I foolishly expected to not lose much with new guns :rolleyes:
I did try the M beavertail grip, but it didnt help much and made it harder to get finger on the trigger and hit the mag release.
Failure2Stop
09-16-13, 14:47
Jack, If its the same video I am thinking of didn't he mention placing the upper most part of the finger on the trigger? Hook and curl method I believe Surf called it. I've got that vid saved on my kindle. It's the 'How to shoot a Glock well' video if not mistaken.
-Jax
Ha, I might actually be "remembering" him saying something different than what he was actually saying. If so, mea culpa.
That being said; I have found that performance in students and myself that giving Glocks a "lot of finger" is beneficial to precision speed shooting. As I said before, with Glocks I am almost to the first joint, and I actually press from the tip of the finger, kind of hooking the trigger with the finger during the press.
I do not shoot any other triggers in this manner.
snaggletooth
09-16-13, 15:02
I prescribe to this method and wonder if aftermarket trigger have any change on this? Like salient arms triggers? Or any other triggers out there?
I traded out the stock trigger on my Gen 3 Glock 19 for a Glock OEM 3.5 trigger.
Perhaps such a trigger change would help a lot of you having problems shooting Glocks?
I use the middle tip of my index finger whether shooting strong or weak hand.
While I'm a righty, I'm a better shot shooting left. This wasn't true initially, but with very little practice I've found shooting weak hand, not really weak.
Go figure...?
theblackknight
09-16-13, 15:26
To be honest the broke-in Gen4 triggers I've shot are completely fine. Part of the reason I switched is because I wasnt about to buy a(3rd gun) M&Pc or shield, and have to fix the still shit ass triggers that were in the recent production models I sampled on top of a sight swap.
I do have a Zev tech connector, but its only gonna be used in the 17 for matches after I learn to shoot the gun at my previous skill level. Even after I installed it, yeah its lighter but the break and reset didnt really seem too different or better, maybe even more mushy.
To be honest the broke-in Gen4 triggers I've shot are completely fine. Part of the reason I switched is because I wasnt about to buy a(3rd gun) M&Pc or shield, and have to fix the still shit ass triggers that were in the recent production models I sampled on top of a sight swap.
I do have a Zev tech connector, but its only gonna be used in the 17 for matches after I learn to shoot the gun at my previous skill level. Even after I installed it, yeah its lighter but the break and reset didnt really seem too different or better, maybe even more mushy.
Remove the nub on the trigger bar, do some flattening of the rolled edges and polish work and it will be GTG.
Speaking of G4 triggers, I measured one the other day that was NORTH of 6.5LBS. Little too heavy for my taste.
C4
theblackknight
09-16-13, 16:06
Um, I slightly rounded the top profile of the trigger bar area that works the striker plunger and polished all the surfaces. I'm about to weigh the trigger bubba style with a water jug, 550 cord and my food scale :D
I do not want to go below 5lbs and am keeping both guns the same in the trigger area.
I'm staying over 5 so shooting issued guns isnt terribly too different and so If I ever shoot a actual IPSC match(not USPSA), I wont get bumped out of production with their 5lb first pull rule.
FWIW, the dot connector is my favorite connector. It's a bit heavier than the mushy minus connector, but I definitely prefer the more consistent, rolling-break type pull that it delivers.
FWIW the gen 4 trigger bar once well worn in with the minus connector does not have the mush that a gen 3 trigger plus minus has. It does feel a bit heavier, but the wall has a more distinct snap.
theblackknight
09-16-13, 21:06
I "checked" the 17's trigger by lifting a water jug up slowly by the trigger. It broke repeatedly at 6lb 2oz.
How does removing the "bump" effect the trigger pull?
I "checked" the 17's trigger by lifting a water jug up slowly by the trigger. It broke repeatedly at 6lb 2oz.
How does removing the "bump" effect the trigger pull?
Was that trigger pull weight with the new connector in it or the standard one that came in the gun?
It adds weight to the trigger pull. This is why most people swap them out. We just file them off.
C4
theblackknight
09-16-13, 22:56
Was that trigger pull weight with the new connector in it or the standard one that came in the gun?
It adds weight to the trigger pull. This is why most people swap them out. We just file them off.
C4
Stock trigger.
It appears I'm soon deleting said bump.
Should have bought a 1911 :rolleyes:
theblackknight
09-17-13, 00:17
quite pouring sand in my vagina!
Just deleted the bump. Better!
Less of a pour more of a gentle sprinkle. . . I seem to be making the same switch. Although I think I'm going to ditch the Gen 3 and hunt down a Gen 2 possibly a Glock 7. On a serious note I have noticed a bit of adjusted when going from M&P to Glock.
Vickers had a great dissertation in one of his advanced pistol classes that I took about trigger manipulation. He explained how pulling the trigger on a revolver or a DA auto was different from a 1911 or hi power and a Glock was different from them all.
quite pouring sand in my vagina!
Just deleted the bump. Better!
Now pull your striker out. Look at the sides where it sits in the slide. Are there any burrs in there? If so, buff them out.
Check the back of the crucifix (where the striker releases off). Tool marks or rough? Clean it up and make sure to not change the angle!
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=103973
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=103781
C4
theblackknight
09-17-13, 20:52
Oh shiiii those threads are boss.
is there a local option for these stones?
I should have just got the glock7 . Those porcelin triggers are smoove
Oh shiiii those threads are boss.
is there a local option for these stones?
I should have just got the glock7 . Those porcelin triggers are smoove
There are 4 threads so read them all.
Doubtful on the stones. Just order the ones I posted or use a regular Arkansas stone and then polish.
C4
Ordering the stones is painless. Oddly enough, my G19 Gen4 trigger was better out of the box than the polished one on my G17 Gen3. The Gen 4 is good enough that I'm not messing with it.
theblackknight
09-17-13, 21:23
I read all four, the only part I didnt hit already was the side of the striker.
Ive been eaten alive lately with shipping, thats why I asked about local shits. I might call my local smith and see if he wants to sell me some old ones and make a couple dollars on them.
Ready.Fire.Aim
09-17-13, 22:35
I had the grip customized on three surplus gen-2 G19s.
Hump removed, small beaver tail added, stippling, magwell half-moon cutout, 3.5# connectors.
They point like a 1911, a completely different G19 pistol.
A few things....For the OP, you are going through a not so uncommon process. I was not a Glock guy and I went through this same process myself. I had no other Glock shooters in my inner circle to tap into so my own learning curve was steep. Via trial and error, hours of video that I used to self diagnose led me to many conclusions that I came to on my own. However once the light bulb went on there was no stopping or denying the results that I was seeing.
In general response to all posts....
My old video's had a lot of information in them that even many experienced shooters / instructors are not aware of, know how to diagnose or how to fix the shooter. However, I still do not give out everything and I hope that is understandable. I also greatly appreciate all the support that I had on the video's, but yes they have been removed.
Having said that, I will agree with the statement purportedly made by Larry Vickers in relation to trigger pull types with various weapons and I mentioned in prior video's how I may run triggers differently given the trigger type, however my "hook and curl" method was pretty fundamentally similar from pistol to pistol and even to long guns or precision rifles, where my technique originally stemmed from.
Glocks indeed have a unique trigger pull associated to the pistol and it is not completely related to the trigger pull or trigger finger, however certain very common issues are related to the grip angle and the hump on the lower part of the backstrap of the Glock and how it interfaces with many shooters palmswells of their hands during the trigger pull process. This topic was to be a video in my Glock / trigger pull series but it never got released. So not only does the trigger design contribute to the common left push, sometimes in conjunction with an up or down impact, how a shooter changes their grip or more correctly inconsistent variations of grip pressure throughout the trigger pull process can be problematic which is excasserbated by the Glock hump on the backstrap. IMO the grip angle is desirable and creates a leverage advantage, however the hump can create issues for many shooters. Common fix was to remove the hump. Even though I am a big time Gen4 convert without any backstraps, I still like to ever so slightly do a heat reduction on the hump area only of the grip.
Another common issue is the larger meaty portions of the hand interfering with the sides of the pistol during the trigger pull process. And of course as mentioned in the my video's, the finger placement and the point at which the sear breaks in relation to the trigger finger / pull process makes a large difference. As has been described by F2S and others, there are definitely ways to do a "quick fix" for a shooter in relation to the Glock. While they can be effective, I would consider them improper ways to address the situation and would agree with the "band aid" fix analogy. Examples of improper fixes would might be to "pre-load" the weapon in your grip which gives a slight sideways orientation of the pistol in the opposite direction of the pushed shots. Another method would be to place the trigger into the grove of the trigger finger which would probably be unusual for the shooter and unique for when they shoot a Glock. This finger placement can address a "push" or a "pull" depending. Another technique might be to place counter pressure on the slide with the support side thumb which usually address a push to the support side. There are other improper fixes but I will leave it there.
Bottom line, Glocks can be a nightmare for some shooters to adjust to. Usually self diagnosis is frustrating or futile depending on shooter knowledge and / or willingness to push on. Many experienced instructors don't do well with diagnosing or fixing shooters who have a problem that might be unique to them firing the Glock. So indeed it can be a frustrating process for some, but a successful outcome can be very rewarding.
I am highly successful with diagnosing and fixing shooters and I can work wonders for problematic Glock shooters. I wish I had the ability to accommodate those who have inquired, but personal instruction is very difficult and I no longer do video's. For the time being at least. ;)
Good post Surf.
Since we are on the subject of shooting Glock's (well), I had a conversation with a couple instructors about the fact that the Glock is one of (or if not THE) hardest of the polymer guns to shoot well. I made the case that because of the grip angle (and what that does to the shooters hand) and the hard resetting trigger, that most people do not shoot this gun well (and never will as they don't understand what is going on).
They agreed with me BTW.
Thoughts?
I also agree with you about instructors do not know how to diagnose and fix what a student is doing wrong (especially with Glock's). This is why they use large target areas or just run drill after drill with NO diagnostics.
For me, I shoot a GEN 2 19 (mostly) and have learned that if I concentrate on feeling the right side of the trigger and ending my pull FLAT that I shoot the gun well. I also use the middle of my pad and have normal hand size.
C4
Not to digress too much but quick question -
If Glock represents one of the "most difficult pistols to shoot," which pistol is considered "easy / natural" to shoot? I have only really shot glocks so im just curious...
Failure2Stop
09-18-13, 10:23
Not to digress too much but quick question -
If Glock represents one of the "most difficult pistols to shoot," which pistol is considered "easy / natural" to shoot? I have only really shot glocks so im just curious...
I would have to say that the 1911 is the "easiest" gun to shoot well.
Not to digress too much but quick question -
If Glock represents one of the "most difficult pistols to shoot," which pistol is considered "easy / natural" to shoot? I have only really shot glocks so im just curious...
Ergonomically speaking it will vary from human hand to human hand. With that said, guns that are typically highly adjustable (in their grip) will do well. So guns like the PPQ, HK P30, M&P, 1911, etc.
C4
I would have to say that the 1911 is the "easiest" gun to shoot well.
Agree. I would also say that this gun sets shooters up for failure if they ever move off of it to a gun with a "real trigger." :D
C4
Failure2Stop
09-18-13, 10:41
Agree. I would also say that this gun sets shooters up for failure if they ever move off of it to a gun with a "real trigger." :D
Agreed as well.
1911 triggers = cheating
Hackathorn refers to the 1911 trigger as a "crutch."
For fun, hand a 1911 shooter a DA/SA gun. Then, sit back and watch the carnage. :help:
C4
Failure2Stop
09-18-13, 13:28
1911 triggers = cheating
At the expense of a massive thread derail:
I would absolutely buy a 1911 that held 15+ 9mm or 10+ .45 in a flush magazine, with easily replaceable sights, as long as it was at Glock price-point, reliability, and parts interchangeability.
OP, I feel your pain. I've been considering a M&P 40c vs a Glock 23; typically I shoot a sig 229. Groups from either gun are "good" to be 4-6 inches wide with 10 shots at 7 yards. Not really tightening up either. In contrast ... with my 229 I shoot about as poorly, but at least have 13 rounds with which to do it.
Given my poor results, I've gone to several classes, with minimal help from instructors. I wonder if I need more time on one platform only, but hate having to choose one at this point(and possibly be a $400 mistake).
Watching this thread closely.
theblackknight
09-18-13, 14:00
At the expense of a massive thread derail:
I would absolutely buy a 1911 that held 15+ 9mm or 10+ .45 in a flush magazine, with easily replaceable sights, as long as it was at Glock price-point, reliability, and parts interchangeability.
http://www.elisabethhubert.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/unicorn.jpg
brickboy240
09-18-13, 15:24
Yes...as one that grew up shooting Dad's 1911 and Hi-Power...going to polymer striker pistols and owning a few SIGs has been a transition...to be honest!
SA auto triggers can spoil you silly! LOL
-brickboy240
I'm not good with any striker fired pistol,I have this habit of producing patterns instead of groups.....
I do best with a DA pistol though and I will admit my first shot will be a good ways off the rest,but usually within about six inches of the others.
At "combat" range I'm good but for any distance I thumb cock the silly thing so I know I can hit.
Grant / Surf / all,
What are your thoughts on Finger Grooves vs no Finger Grooves and their effect on grip angle / trigger pull issues ?
I noted Grant mentioned shooting a Gen 2 G19. I have large hands and I've noticed my Glock trigger pull / hitting left issues seem less pronounced when shooting Glocks without finger grooves.
Grant / Surf / all,
What are your thoughts on Finger Grooves vs no Finger Grooves and their effect on grip angle / trigger pull issues ?
I noted Grant mentioned shooting a Gen 2 G19. I have large hands and I've noticed my Glock trigger pull / hitting left issues seem less pronounced when shooting Glocks without finger grooves.
I hate them. So no finger groves for me.
C4
Failure2Stop
09-18-13, 16:08
Given my poor results, I've gone to several classes, with minimal help from instructors. I wonder if I need more time on one platform only, but hate having to choose one at this point(and possibly be a $400 mistake).
Watching this thread closely.
Honestly, I would recommend some quality 1 on 1 instruction from someone that has a track record of teaching people fundamental pistol. These guys are generally not that hard to find, and in recent days of people only worrying about how fast they can dump their magazine into a target at contact distance, it shouldn't be hard to find one nearby with time to teach.
The first part in teaching someone to shoot well, is to know what good shooting looks like and what it takes to get there.
In the mean-time, focus on dry-fire and low round-count live fire/dry fire combination. Everything starts with good trigger control and eliminating anticipation. Missing those crucial aspects of fundamental marksmanship will make stance/grip/sights irrelevant.
Since we are on the subject of shooting Glock's (well), I had a conversation with a couple instructors about the fact that the Glock is one of (or if not THE) hardest of the polymer guns to shoot well. I made the case that because of the grip angle (and what that does to the shooters hand) and the hard resetting trigger, that most people do not shoot this gun well (and never will as they don't understand what is going on).
They agreed with me BTW.
Thoughts?
C4I somewhat agree with this in that the Glock has some nuances to it that give many shooters fits. The shooters that have the most issues tend to be experienced shooters transitioning from another pistol type who already have ingrained in them how a certain type of pistol shoots. New shooters OTOH may have no preconceived ideas or preconditioned motor reflexes as a result of a different pistol type, therefore they have a blank slate and learning on the Glock is normal and do not need to unlearn something.
Not to digress too much but quick question -
If Glock represents one of the "most difficult pistols to shoot," which pistol is considered "easy / natural" to shoot? I have only really shot glocks so im just curious...Americans are obviously more naturally conditioned to an American style grip angle. This can be from toy guns all the way to the real thing. The Euro type grip angles like the Glock, Luger etc, is not something that is traditionally the norm here in the US. Therefore pistols that have a more 1911 style grip angle is more what people in the US understand. I will note that I am or was a big 1911 shooting type and that pistol felt just right in my hand. However shooting so much with the Glock, the Glock grip angle now feels normal and natural to me. I have adjusted or retrained myself as to what is normal or natural feeling.
Grant / Surf / all,
What are your thoughts on Finger Grooves vs no Finger Grooves and their effect on grip angle / trigger pull issues ?
I noted Grant mentioned shooting a Gen 2 G19. I have large hands and I've noticed my Glock trigger pull / hitting left issues seem less pronounced when shooting Glocks without finger grooves.I do not like finger groves. While my hand fits the grooves OK, I still prefer not having them. Those with large sausage sized fingers have issues where their fingers may not land nicely in the groove, but more up on the ridge of the finger groove. This is annoying to say the least. If you find yourself drawing the pistol and presenting with less then a good grip on the weapon, the finger grooves are far less forgiving on your grip and that may translate to accuracy issues.
Honestly, I would recommend some quality 1 on 1 instruction from someone that has a track record of teaching people fundamental pistol. These guys are generally not that hard to find, and in recent days of people only worrying about how fast they can dump their magazine into a target at contact distance, it shouldn't be hard to find one nearby with time to teach.
The first part in teaching someone to shoot well, is to know what good shooting looks like and what it takes to get there.
In the mean-time, focus on dry-fire and low round-count live fire/dry fire combination. Everything starts with good trigger control and eliminating anticipation. Missing those crucial aspects of fundamental marksmanship will make stance/grip/sights irrelevant.agree whole heartedly. Academi used to be close by. Now looking around my newlocal. Any advice for SC?
theblackknight
09-18-13, 21:38
Any advice for SC?
Where are you at in SC? How far from Fayettslum?
I somewhat agree with this in that the Glock has some nuances to it that give many shooters fits. The shooters that have the most issues tend to be experienced shooters transitioning from another pistol type who already have ingrained in them how a certain type of pistol shoots. New shooters OTOH may have no preconceived ideas or preconditioned motor reflexes as a result of a different pistol type, therefore they have a blank slate and learning on the Glock is normal and do not need to unlearn something.
Which gun did you transition from when you went to the Glock?
C4
Where are you at in SC? How far from Fayettslum?
IM sent. About 3 hour drive.
Which gun did you transition from when you went to the Glock?
C4My unit is Sig P226 .40S&W. I put more rounds through that pistol in 12 years then even Sig thought possible. I did shoot several other platforms regularly and I was a big 1911 guy. I tried to be highly proficient in many of the pistol types that were a common part of my student base. I wanted to be able to run them all as if they were all the same. As I started getting more and more agencies in my area going to Glock and more students running them, I naturally took a greater interest in Glock despite owning a Glock since the early / mid 90's. I really didn't get a greater interest until the Gen3 34's however I found that I had some serious issues which mirror others experiences. However I stuck with it and then when the Gen4's hit, it was a game changer for me. Also video and self remediation was HUGE. I had no one else to go off of, so video and a no shit self evaluation was really what made it work for me.
My unit is Sig P226 .40S&W. I put more rounds through that pistol in 12 years then even Sig thought possible. I did shoot several other platforms regularly and I was a big 1911 guy. I tried to be highly proficient in many of the pistol types that were a common part of my student base. I wanted to be able to run them all as if they were all the same. As I started getting more and more agencies in my area going to Glock and more students running them, I naturally took a greater interest in Glock despite owning a Glock since the early / mid 90's. I really didn't get a greater interest until the Gen3 34's however I found that I had some serious issues which mirror others experiences. However I stuck with it and then when the Gen4's hit, it was a game changer for me. Also video and self remediation was HUGE. I had no one else to go off of, so video and a no shit self evaluation was really what made it work for me.
I kind of assumed you were either coming from a DA/SA or SA firearm.
I agree Having someone that is knowledgeable watch your trigger finger as you shoot is extremely helpful or in your case, just video tape yourself! :D
C4
I had actually been pulling with the first joint of my finger. Did the vertical line test (basically a 1" black line running vertically, with grey boxes to each side) yesterday. With my normal first joint shooting, the shots hit high left as they always seem to do when I'm shooting while concentrating on trigger press. I then did the same thing with the center pad of my finger (slightly towards the joint) while feeling the right side as Grant describes. All three where in the black. Distance was 7m.
theblackknight
10-24-13, 23:04
I hadnt been able to make it to the range do to life stuff, but I did shoot a match sunday with some stuff from 50y.
My glock problems still show themselves on these one hand strings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5FijknI_fs&feature=c4-overview&list=UUn274mdgWr0bUZYSQj-BgzA
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