PDA

View Full Version : Okay, Let's Settle This Once and for All :D



Doc Safari
09-16-13, 22:32
Reading people's gripes on various handguns can get downright depressing.

Glocks: used to be 100,000% reliable (maybe), but sure aren't now
M & P: used to have a bunch of rusting, accuracy, and whatever problems but are GTG now (maybe)
1911: Nuff Said
H & K: Good but everything about them costs an arm and a leg, and oh, don't even think about spare parts
XD: Induces projectile vomiting in some users

What's a person to do?

I'm a Glock man. I've owned many different Glocks over the years, and now I have two Gen 3 17's that seem trustworthy. Would I buy another Glock? NO.

My trusted sidearm: S & W J-Frame 642.

And that is the sad state of reality.

Or is it?

What say you?

jhs1969
09-16-13, 22:35
I pretty much agree with what you are saying. I'm considering biting the bullet and getting a HK45C and calling it done.

rathos
09-17-13, 00:47
awesome gun but limited light capabilities. I just wish surefire or inforce would come up with a plate to fight this gun and it would be perfect...


I pretty much agree with what you are saying. I'm considering biting the bullet and getting a HK45C and calling it done.

mrvip27
09-17-13, 01:09
You forgot Beretta :p

theblackknight
09-17-13, 02:11
While I strongly heed the info presented here, I take 1st hand observations over those as the majority of my viewpoint.

I do find it funny because this happens with a lot of industries. All the cool kids are clamoring for Sigs from the 80's and 2nd gen Glocks.


Also:Gun hipsters! Buy PPQ's now while people are raving over them. Sometime in the future Walther will do -------- which people wont like and there will be a run on the older pre ----------version as the version to have by those who need serious use tools!

kantstudien
09-17-13, 02:22
Sounds like you already got what you need, what more do you want?

Just keep buying mags and ammo like there's no tomorrow and you're set ;)

Mauser KAR98K
09-17-13, 03:31
I have switched over from the M&P to an HK USP9, looking to either go P2000 or P-30 in the future. I like the accuracy of the HK for those longer range shots, plus the dead nuts reliability.

I am still keeping my M&Ps, looking to grab a Shield again, and would live to get a COREL. The fit very well in the hand, have a good aftermarket support, and thus far I have not had any problems with mine.

I just seem to shoot the HK just a fraction better, which makes me feel a little more comfortable...to a point. Still want to go out and send 1,000 down range every week to keep the skills very fresh, but ammo can't keep up to my demand.

All in all, the pistols the OP mentioned (except whoever made said 1911) I would gladly trust as I have respect for all, particular the Glocks, alsa I'm not really good with them. They are all good pistols as long as the operator maintains them properly, replaces parts when needed, adds things to make it work "better," or choose something else to fit preferences.

Army Chief
09-17-13, 05:43
Still a "Nuff Said" guy, myself.

AC

sugerwater
09-17-13, 06:54
I have Glocks (2), a Beretta, a few S&W's (5), and a Sig 229. All run 100%. My AR runs 100% also. So has my Remingtons and Winchesters. Had a Winchester Mod 50 long ago that doubled. Guess that makes all Winchesters junk.

Gutshot John
09-17-13, 07:14
The one YOU shoot the best.

Learn to love it, warts and all.

There is no such thing as a perfect gun.

Watrdawg
09-17-13, 07:30
I have 2 Glocks (17, 19) and a M&P 45 Mid. I've done things to all of them for one reason or another and they all run great. I'm partial to the M&P 45 because it's the most accurate of the 3. I look at it this way. They all are $500 guns and swapping out parts is no big deal to me. Yes I would prefer that they come 100% reliable and the M&P has been but if I have to swap out and ejector here or there my butt isn't hurt any. If I had a custom weapon and spent gobs of money on it, it had better be perfect! If not, then I'd do some serious complaining. I bought the Glocks knowing that I'd have to do some work to them. I took them to the range. I experienced some ETF's, swapped out the ejectors and all is well now. No big deal.

dmaxfireman
09-17-13, 07:50
Still a "Nuff Said" guy, myself.

AC

Chief, I may end up leaning back that way very soon myself. My G17 with the Apex FRE and everything recommended by Apex just started winging brass off my forehead again with about 400 rounds since the upgrades. My LGS just got in a XSE Stainless Commander that I'm picking up this week to put through it's paces. Getting ready to eat some crow after being a Glock fanboy...

walkin' trails
09-17-13, 08:10
I have been fortunate in regard to Glocks and M&Ps. All have worked out if the box, and have had triggers in what I consider decent for duty pistols, including a new M&P9 and a Gen IV 26, and have had no malfunctions with either out of the box. My faith in these two platforms has not yet been shaken. Most of the aforementioned companies have good warranties, so my advice is to go ahead and buy what you want, properly lube it and break it in, and train. If it doesn't work, send it back and make them fix it right.

YVK
09-17-13, 08:46
Glocks: used to be 100,000% reliable (maybe), but sure aren't now


What say you?

Were Glocks really that reliable? Gen2 NYPD guns? The "limpwristing" term was born way before Gen4, was it? The ejection pattern hasn't been that stellar before, no?

I have first four on your list, including gen3 and 4. From practical standpoint I don't care which one to carry, outside the fact that MP is 15 yards gun.

Urban_Redneck
09-17-13, 08:47
I was sitting pretty with my Caracals 'til a couple compacts blew up in Pakistan :fie:

Caduceus
09-17-13, 08:54
You forgot Beretta :p

and Sig, and probably everything east of the Atlantic.

Hogsgunwild
09-17-13, 09:08
Discover the fresh new world of the Walther P99.

I now have two compacts and two fullsize models. All with the AS (Anti-Stress) triggers. All of the accuracy of the H&K P30 without the slow trigger and gun's heavier weight. Nearly the speed of the PPQ or Glock with a crisper trigger and the ability to decock to DA mode for AIWB carry. It is a good, fast, accurate DA.

Little known facts:
Call Earl's repair service because you can:

1.) Order both the German made Compact or FS models from him.

2.) Get an ambi-slide release in addition to the ambi-mag release (at least on the FS, possibly as a factory order on the compact,
ask Earl).

3.) Order 16 round flush fitting mags instead of the common 15 rounders. The P99 was originally designed for 16 rounds.

They also have grip sleeves for your magazine for using the FS mags in the compact model.

I have no affiliation with Earl other than being a very happy customer.
Especially after my M&P fiasco...:angry:

Thought that I should add that I have kept an entire box of 50 S&B ammo in the black on my gun club's version of a B8 target (meaning no flyers outside of 5 or 6 inches at 25 yards) with the compact model.
That is a sub-compact pistol doing this. Amazing...

Crow Hunter
09-17-13, 09:26
Where Glocks really that reliable? Gen2 NYPD guns? The "limpwristing" term was born way before Gen4, was it? The ejection pattern hasn't been that stellar before, no?
I have first four on your list, including gen3 and 4. From practical standpoint I don't care which one to carry, outside the fact that MP is 15 yards gun.

Ditto.

I have owned and been shooting Glocks since 1998. I never bought into the hype. Well, after I had owned one for a while.:D Out of the 13 (IIRC) that I have owned, 2 of them have been dogs. So I don't have any illusions about "Glock perfection".

I just like the fact that I can shoot quick with them decently, change any part on them I need to myself, get decently priced magazines, they don't seem to rust, my wife likes them and can shoot them.

I switched from Beretta to late to mid 1990s German made Sig P series back in the day because I did believe in the Sig hype. I swapped to Glock from Sig though, because I liked Glocks better.:eek:

If I find a gun that will do the same things and is easier to shoot for me than a Glock. I will probably switch.

I haven't found one yet, but I am still looking.;)

samuse
09-17-13, 10:13
I learned to run handguns, took many classess, and shot a lot of matches with a Glock, and it was a great tool to use while I was learning.

Now I carry a 442 and when I want to shoot for enjoyment... 'Nuf said...

jaxman7
09-17-13, 10:17
Still a "Nuff $aid" guy, myself.

AC

Fixed it for ya brother. ;)

-Jax

BrigandTwoFour
09-17-13, 10:21
I'll add a few:

Beretta: The biggest mistake the military ever made
Walther: the new savior of pistol craft
FNH: I don't even like their rifles, why would they make a pistol?

FWIW, I shoot my Beretta 92A1 better than any other pistol I own, including my match 1911.

I picked up a FNS-9 on a whim, its been a fine little pistol and will probably bump my Beretta back to the safe when I can finally afford to practice with it as much as I should.

brickboy240
09-17-13, 10:24
You left off the PPQ.

Really, the glaring issue with the PPQ is difficulty in finding mags and the cost of the mags.

Other than that...what is the "downside" to the PPQ? It seems accurate, well made and reliable.

-brickboy240

Crow Hunter
09-17-13, 10:36
I learned to run handguns, took many classess, and shot a lot of matches with a Glock, and it was a great tool to use while I was learning.

Now I carry a 442 and when I want to shoot for enjoyment... 'Nuf said...

Funny you should say that.

I have been mulling around the idea of doing that with my new 642. I haven't gotten to practice enough with it yet because I can't find a reliable source of ammo. But I did throw it in my pocket while walking the dogs yesterday. I almost forgot I had it with me.

I am thinking about getting a Beretta 92F (my favorite) to shoot for fun.

Might even use this latest scare to get some extra cash from all my Glock stuff....

Actually, I might just get a Blackhawk 9mm/.38 convertible as I actually have alot more fun with a single action and I can shoot up my 9mm stash.:D

Slater
09-17-13, 12:25
Most civilian-owned Beretta 92-series guns seem to have a solid reputation for accuracy and reliability. The military guns are a whole 'nother universe, of course

Javelin
09-17-13, 12:35
I like most pistols. I am however leaning towards my Hks as my favorites for accuracy on top of the dependability. I just seem to shoot my P30 better than my Glocks.

Kain
09-17-13, 13:06
Have owned Glocks for a while and while I hadn't had many issue personally I have had friends and seen them go down hard in the past. My person 17 3rd gen tends to eject pretty consistent though it will throw a casing vertical from time to time.

Have a Springfield TRP that has been very good to me, keep considering sending it off to Springfield Custom shop for a little work and adding a few things that I would like, but haven't really decided if I need them yet.

Would have no personal issue running an H&K except for price locally the guns tend to run more than what I have into my BCM. Still find the P30 to fit my hand like a glove.

Still consider from time to time going and picking up a Beretta M9A1, nightsites already on it, get another X300 Ultra, and buy up a quantity of Mecgar 18rders and just call it done. My 92SB will damn near out shoot anything else i own and the weight isn't as bad as some like to make it out to be and even for a 20+ year old handgun I only have had one malfunction, a FTF in the first 500 rounds I put through it after buying, not cleaning or lubing it, and considering the pistol had not been clean, oiled or fired for 10 years prior I am not upset.

Still have to agree with what has been said, there are no perfect handguns out there, no perfect guns period. Find something you like and find its faults and run with it.

Norseman
09-17-13, 13:24
I had been a big proponent of Glock's for a long time, but the recent issues with them put me in the same boat as the OP, won't be buying anymore than what I have. I might even be unloading 1 or 2 soon.

I have a number of 1911's that I enjoy shooting, but the Colt railgun I have has me really leaning towards going back to the 1911's for primaries. This thing has eaten everything I have thrown at it and come back for more, even with crap mags.

Have to agree with GS, find one that works and rock on.

Krull
09-17-13, 13:31
I'm of the mind that guns are,and handguns in particular,a personal choice and what fits me may not fit you so find what you like and run with it.

For me after several years of trying every thing from the fabled Glock to XD's I settled on the Beretta 92FS AKA M9 as my one choice.

Happy with and can even say love it,carry it everyday and have no problems with it at all.

Abraham
09-17-13, 14:35
I've shot a number of 1911's and only owned one.

All gave me problems.

I love the way they shoot, but the various mechanical problems aren't for me. I traded in the one I owned (Colt Commander) and never looked back.

Now, with my Glock 19 (thousands of rounds through it) and a .357 Magnum Ruger SP101 spur-less hammer revolver, I have no problems.

HES
09-17-13, 16:07
You left off the PPQ.

Really, the glaring issue with the PPQ is difficulty in finding mags and the cost of the mags.

Other than that...what is the "downside" to the PPQ? It seems accurate, well made and reliable.

-brickboy240
Actually I think that is not really an issue any more. I keep getting notifications that they are in and I'm paying between $33 and $40.

I think the biggest problem that the PPQ faces is lack of sight support. However between Dawson and the recently introduced 10-8s that is being taken care of. I am hesitant to say that the PPQ is THE pisttol, but man that is how this high drag low speed guy feels.

brickboy240
09-17-13, 16:19
I think most shooters could live with 10-8 or Dawson sights. Especially if the pistol was reliable, accurate and there were no other glaring downsides.

Seems to be plenty of holster choice out there for it as well.

-brickboy240

C4IGrant
09-17-13, 16:20
Reading people's gripes on various handguns can get downright depressing.

Glocks: used to be 100,000% reliable (maybe), but sure aren't now
M & P: used to have a bunch of rusting, accuracy, and whatever problems but are GTG now (maybe)
1911: Nuff Said
H & K: Good but everything about them costs an arm and a leg, and oh, don't even think about spare parts
XD: Induces projectile vomiting in some users

What's a person to do?

I'm a Glock man. I've owned many different Glocks over the years, and now I have two Gen 3 17's that seem trustworthy. Would I buy another Glock? NO.

My trusted sidearm: S & W J-Frame 642.

And that is the sad state of reality.

Or is it?

What say you?


Glock's: Still buy them. Understand that it might have to go back to the factory (1-3 times). You might end up spending own money to make them run well.

M&P's: The barrel twist rate is better and they are shooting better groups. Reliable guns.

HK's: Most reliable auto loader made today. Super accurate. Parts are more available than ever. HK's CS dept. is starting to look stellar compared to Glock.

SIG's: Appear to be improving their guns now. Wait and see attitude.

XD(M): Well, I cannot really comment as I don't think much of the gun.

PPQ's: Awesome gun. Reliable and accurate. Spare parts are harder to come by, but can be found on the net. Mags are also becoming more common. Sight options are limited though.



C4

samuse
09-17-13, 16:26
Funny you should say that.

I have been mulling around the idea of doing that with my new 642. I haven't gotten to practice enough with it yet because I can't find a reliable source of ammo. But I did throw it in my pocket while walking the dogs yesterday. I almost forgot I had it with me.

I am thinking about getting a Beretta 92F (my favorite) to shoot for fun.

Might even use this latest scare to get some extra cash from all my Glock stuff....

Actually, I might just get a Blackhawk 9mm/.38 convertible as I actually have alot more fun with a single action and I can shoot up my 9mm stash.:D

Do it! I called this disaster 6 or 7 years ago. I had stocked up on pre ambi-cut 19&17 mags and pre '08 19s and 17s and was set to ride it out. Well turns out this mess soured me on the name altogether and I won't endorse that mess by kicking ass at matches with their junk.

I can shoot Single Stack and CDP with my Springfield Custom 1911s. They run $2500 apeice and I have a spare out in truck if this one quits. If I wanted to save money, I'd be at the bank, opening a savings account!

Pass the ammo!

Gutshot John
09-17-13, 16:30
Even with a faulty Glock, and various upgrades, you will likely spend a lot less than on an HK though I'll never understand why people are too cheap to invest some money into customizing a gun that works for them, but they'll go out and buy 5 other types of pistols that they don't carry...but hey, not my cash.

As for the M&P being a 15 yard gun. I've no problem dinging steel at 75-100 yards with my carry gun, and my older 9L will make a nice little cloverleaf at 25 yards from a bench and rest.

Ultimately everyone has their preference. I wish people would look more at what they personally shoot the best, rather than listen to what people tell them the "new shiney" is.

Army Chief
09-17-13, 16:46
Fixed it for ya brother. ;)

-Jax

If you had any idea what I've been up to over the past six months where 1911s are concerned, you would be utterly-astonished at your own clairvoyance. ;)

Let's just say that I stopped deferring a couple of long-standing dreams, with some kindness and help from a few very good people.

AC

theblackknight
09-17-13, 17:01
Other than that...what is the "downside" to the PPQ
-brickboy240

Has yet to actually prove itself over the long term, and dosent yet come in a legitimate carry size that the majority of carriers can conceal.

Even tho I'm a comp shooter, why come out with the 5" version 1st?

jsbcody
09-17-13, 17:01
For me, I am getting to the point where I am going to buy a nice S&W model 19 or 66 with a 2 1/2 inch barrel and send it to Mr. Smith to do his magic. That will end up being my new EDC pistol.

Or find a H&K P2000 Light Lem .40 caliber.;)

Army Chief
09-17-13, 17:23
Has yet to actually prove itself over the long term, and dosent yet come in a legitimate carry size that the majority of carriers can conceal.

Even tho I'm a comp shooter, why come out with the 5" version 1st?

Disagree, agree and they didn't.

The P99 upon which this gun is based has a solid service record, and they are much too similar to really discount the familial connection. I'd say the gun represents a safe bet for the long haul.

Walther seems to want to keep pointing to the P99c, which IS a sufficiently different gun, ironically, because of the trigger system. A true PPQc would be very well-received here. Those who wanted a P99c could have scratched that itch long before the PPQ became the flagship of the line.

The 5" madness was not driven by our market. It is a clear carry-over from the European market, where target-optimized models are popular with sport shooters because of other restrictions with which they must contend. It's a stupid gun for our market, in my view, and we really didn't need the M2 or PPX, either. Walter still has much to learn about core competences and the American market. They need to quit screwing around and focus on importing M1s in quantity, along with developing a true PPQc as a follow-on. The rest of these models are diversions that will only water-down the intial successes they had with the original PPQ.

My opinion, and I reserve the right to be wrong, but I see many missteps here -- and am actually a strong proponent of the original PPQ.

AC

theblackknight
09-17-13, 17:55
Well I'm all for the 5" happening and happening now. I would just like to see a c version now as well.

The M1 version however, dosent as you would say, take our market into consideration. The paddle is a Euro feature of which American designs and users arnt very receiving to. I'm also not sure there can be a well demonstratable performance benefit to the paddle for the majority of our market's users to justify it's existence.

Army Chief
09-17-13, 18:02
Well I'm all for the 5" happening and happening now. I would just like to see a c version now as well.

The M1 version however, dosent as you would say, take our market into consideration. The paddle is a Euro feature of which American designs and users arnt very receiving to. I'm also not sure there can be a well demonstratable performance benefit to the paddle for the majority of our market's users to justify it's existence.

The M2 isn't purposeless, and I acknowledge your larger point; that said, I think the whole push-button mag release thing is well-worn schtick these days in view of the fact that American shooters have taken very well to HK's lever releases. The (M1) PPQ brings the very same capability to bear, works well, is less-prone to inadvertent activation in the eyes of many and leaves the shooter wanting for nothing.

An M2 would likely have made sense at some point for the deeply-intrenched folks who want the gun to conform to their existing habits, but it made no sense to introduce the original PPQ, sell out of them and immediately begin focusing on other variations. Economics-101 tells you to at least satisfy existing market demand before changing to New Coke.

AC

theblackknight
09-17-13, 18:16
I've used a p30,p2000 and all 3 calibers of HK compact. Having to completely break front strap index point and regain it effected the whole grip.

On a g4glock, M2version, M&P(with L grip), pressing button and reflagging thumb effected master grip in no way.

Army Chief
09-17-13, 18:24
I've used a p30,p2000 and all 3 calibers of HK compact. Having to completely break front strap index point and regain it effected the whole grip.

On a g4glock, M2version, M&P(with L grip), pressing button and reflagging thumb effected master grip in no way.

Ah, so you're the one ... ;)

Sounds like a training issue to me. You're going to tell me that it isn't. I'm going to observe that it doesn't matter one way or the other to me, and that my real point is that Walther never adequately-launched the original gun. You'll say something else at that point that I'll probably dismiss as silly or irrelevant, because it's just not a big deal to me. You'll find that irritating. I'll consider clarifying, but probably won't bother, since I hate typing on an iPad.

Who cares, really? First beer is still on me. :D :D

AC

theblackknight
09-17-13, 18:36
Well normally I go for the technique that provides the optimum performance benefit even if it requires more programming. It seems in this instance I have a technique which is efficient and the easy road.

FAB45
09-17-13, 18:58
I'll add a few:

Beretta: The biggest mistake the military ever made
Walther: the new savior of pistol craft
FNH: I don't even like their rifles, why would they make a pistol?

FWIW, I shoot my Beretta 92A1 better than any other pistol I own, including my match 1911.

I picked up a FNS-9 on a whim, its been a fine little pistol and will probably bump my Beretta back to the safe when I can finally afford to practice with it as much as I should.


FN is great. Have you even ever shot one??? Scar???

1911-A1
09-17-13, 19:16
I must be some kind of anomaly. My two Gen4 Glocks are 100%, and I have a $375 Norinco 1911 that is way more reliable than my $1400 TRP. My M&Ps are fine, no accuracy, rust or trigger issues.

But yeah, XDs suck.

Failure2Stop
09-17-13, 20:16
My honest opinion:

They're all sub-optimal.
Find the one with the least amount of detractors that you can reasonably afford and practice as much as you can.

Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

HKGuns
09-17-13, 20:20
gLoCk's have never been 100%, not even close.

HKGuns
09-17-13, 20:26
The M1 version however, dosent as you would say, take our market into consideration. The paddle is a Euro feature of which American designs and users arnt very receiving to. I'm also not sure there can be a well demonstratable performance benefit to the paddle for the majority of our market's users to justify it's existence.


Say what? There are plenty of good HK shooters who would argue that point. Lets not paint with a broad brush.

Failure2Stop
09-17-13, 20:39
Say what? There are plenty of good HK shooters who would argue that point. Lets not paint with a broad brush.

Big difference between "good Hk shooters" and "average market users".



Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

Slater
09-17-13, 20:40
So, what I've learned so far:

Pistols that suck: 9mm Glocks, 9mm M&P

Pistols that kinda suck (depending on whether there's sand/dirt around): Beretta 92 series

Pistols that don't suck: Walther PPQ

Pistols that cannot physically be made to suck: Any H&K product

That about cover it?:p

chilic82
09-17-13, 21:07
Glock- ergo's suck, new one's are hit and miss in reliability
M&P- crap trigger, hate the hinged trigger(looks like a 3 yr old designed it), worst accuracy of all owned semi's,mine jams on hollow points when it auto feeds.
PPQ- great everything except sight availability and I don't prefer the humpin the medium blackstrap
XDm- great in my experience
Beretta 92- Great shooter, dislike the safety and decocker function. Limited in sight options
HK- reliable, overpriced accessories , shoots like a $500 gun, limited sight options.

Five_Point_Five_Six
09-17-13, 21:21
Ah, so you're the one ... ;)

Sounds like a training issue to me. You're going to tell me that it isn't. I'm going to observe that it doesn't matter one way or the other to me, and that my real point is that Walther never adequately-launched the original gun. You'll say something else at that point that I'll probably dismiss as silly or irrelevant, because it's just not a big deal to me. You'll find that irritating. I'll consider clarifying, but probably won't bother, since I hate typing on an iPad.

Who cares, really? First beer is still on me. :D :D

AC

You win the internet with this post AC.

Kokopelli
09-17-13, 21:24
I'll go with "Nuff Said" as well. However, I will say that my Shield runs every time as does my XDs.. Er.. at least the XDs did before it got recalled. If it don't run when it comes back, it'll move on..

theblackknight
09-17-13, 21:39
Say what? There are plenty of good HK shooters who would argue that point. Lets not paint with a broad brush.

Well of course they would. Too bad they are a minority, which is a exactly my point. As is the feature itself.

My interest in this issue is, which system would allow the widest variance of shooters who apply themselves the best chance at achieving a peak potential.

thebarracuda
09-17-13, 21:40
I really love my Beretta!

Except:
The safety/decock on the slide.
The double/single action trigger pull.
The fact that it has a safety.
It matches my 13 shoe in size.
Its fairly heavy, then you put the loaded mag in.

But after all that, it shoots so nice!

My Glock 19, late gen 3, is reliable.... but throws brass in my face on the occasion that I shoot bulk ammo. (90% of the time) But no stoppages. Love its simplicity. I quit cleaning it, just lube. Keeps running.

Other than that, :D
As long as you buy a gun that is easily serviced and has good parts availability, you'll be fine.

HES
09-17-13, 21:43
Walter still has much to learn about core competences and the American market. They need to quit screwing around and focus on importing M1s in quantity, along with developing a true PPQc as a follow-on. The rest of these models are diversions that will only water-down the intial successes they had with the original PPQ.

My opinion, and I reserve the right to be wrong, but I see many missteps here -- and am actually a strong proponent of the original PPQ.

AC
Pretty much agree. However Walther is going to concentrate on the M2 and bring the M1 in drabs and drips. So that is where we are. Other than that yeah, they need to get their heads out of their 4th point of contact. If they can do that (and based on nothing but rumblings I think they will) they are gonna take things by storm.

SteveS
09-17-13, 21:57
I must be some kind of anomaly. My two Gen4 Glocks are 100%, and I have a $375 Norinco 1911 that is way more reliable than my $1400 TRP. My M&Ps are fine, no accuracy, rust or trigger issues.

But yeah, XDs suck.
I wish I was smart enough to buy the Norinco 1911 several people I know have them and shoot action pistol with them and they take a licking and keep on ticking.

DreadPirateMoyer
09-17-13, 21:57
To add to the OP's list:

FNH FNS: the mid-2000s Gen 3 Glock of the future. :) Great guns. Reliable. Decent trigger. Accurate. More features than M&P/Glock/XD. I really think this is the gun to beat in the next few years.


My honest opinion:

They're all sub-optimal.
Find the one with the least amount of detractors that you can reasonably afford and practice as much as you can.

Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

This. All of them have something wrong in some way. It's just a matter of picking those that have the least wrong. For me, that's Berettas (for HD) and HKs (for end of the world fantasies). However, if I could have my way, I think the perfect gun would be a striker-fired HK P30 V1 with 17-round capacity: great ergonomics, a safety to rest the strong-hand thumb on a la 1911s, consistent trigger pull, extreme reliability, low maintenance, great capacity. Oh, and I wish they'd move the slide stop forward so I could have a high grip on it without interfering with lockback. Too bad that puppy doesn't exist.


HK- reliable, overpriced accessories , shoots like a $500 gun, limited sight options.

...what? They shoot like $3500 custom 1911s outside of the trigger, which isn't nearly as bad as everyone says. It's actually pretty decent.

MistWolf
09-17-13, 21:59
...what? They shoot like $3500 custom 1911s...

That bad?

SteveS
09-17-13, 21:59
The Ruger Security six IMO is the most durable revolver made,cept may be the GP series. Time will tell.

chilic82
09-17-13, 22:12
..what? They shoot like $3500 custom 1911s outside of the trigger, which isn't nearly as bad as everyone says. It's actually pretty decent.

I didn't find them to be any more accurate than my PPQ,Beretta,or Glocks.They (HK's)all had a horrible trigger compared to my PPQ, which are all $500 guns.Good guns, but for $900 I think people expect a little more. Sorry, just my experience.

T2C
09-17-13, 22:19
I started shooting pistols long before the Glock pistol was conceived. I still embrace the philosophy that I should not carry a pistol until I have fired at least 300 consecutive rounds without malfunction. That may come after 300-400 break in rounds. Most modern quality pistols will meet this requirement.

I am still of the opinion that there is nothing more reliable than a good wheel gun though.

mike240
09-17-13, 22:43
Still a "Nuff Said" guy, myself.

AC

Ditto. It's not a black art to tune one.

DreadPirateMoyer
09-17-13, 22:59
I didn't find them to be any more accurate than my PPQ,Beretta,or Glocks.They (HK's)all had a horrible trigger compared to my PPQ, which are all $500 guns.Good guns, but for $900 I think people expect a little more. Sorry, just my experience.

The trigger isn't as nice as other guns, but as far as I know, it's almost objective fact that the HKs (especially the HK45) are more accurate than all but the most custom of guns. Certainly more accurate than PPQs, Berettas, and Glocks.


That bad?

Cute.

yellow50
09-17-13, 23:05
Oh, and I wish they'd move the slide stop forward so I could have a high grip on it without interfering with lockback

Amen to that. One of my biggest gripes.

YVK
09-18-13, 01:39
The trigger isn't as nice as other guns, but as far as I know, it's almost objective fact that the HKs (especially the HK45) are more accurate than all but the most custom of guns. Certainly more accurate than PPQs, Berettas, and Glocks.

.

There is rarely an objectivity in such things. Shooter's skills, experience with specific trigger, day to day variability in personal performance, brand loyalty bias, methodology etc. I shot my MP with multiple loads, on different days, in different lighting conditions, cold and warmed up, and had buddy shoot it too before proclaiming it a 15 yards gun; I'd expect something similar for accuracy assessments. While HK triggers can be improved on, if somebody uses derogatory verbiage describing them (or any other trigger for that matter), I wouldn't care for his opinion on gun's accuracy potential. Etc.

FWIW, all impartial users I've talked to agree that HKs are very accurate. Mine is, and is more accurate than my gen3 19. However, it isn't more accurate than my Gen4 17 or my Beretta Elite, in my hands, that is. Of course, those two have a longer sight radius, so that may matter. I don't care about PPQ, so no opinion here.

Grand58742
09-18-13, 02:45
I've pretty much been pro-Sig for a while now. Classic series with SRT and E2 grips are about the pinnacle of the Sig line in my opinion.

Hate the Beretta 92 series, just not that balanced for me.

Not fond of the Glock grips up to the Gen 3, never have fired a Gen 4, so can't comment. I shoot them fine, just not overly fond of them.

H&K P30, minor detail, but my trigger finger kept swiping the mag release and it was driving me up the wall. Not enough to drop the mag, but just enough that I would have to change my entire finger placement on the trigger to compensate. Was accurate although the long double action took some getting used to. If H&K was to come up with something like the Sig SRT, I might reconsider that platform.

M&P I haven't shot enough of to form an objective opinion.

H&K USP45 was pretty good. Just bulky and limited for accessories when I still owned it.

XD45, too flippy from the muzzle, not bad overall though.

Yeah, I'm picky...

Having said all that, I'm growing more and more find of the 1911 and Hi Power style of pistols. I just shoot them better than most. I know the 1911s are round limited and the hammer bite on the Hi Power takes some getting used to, but they're two of the most comfortable pistols in my hands and the ones I shoot most accurately.

Unfortunately, 1911s and Hi Powers can get downright expensive for the good ones.

chilic82
09-18-13, 05:54
FWIW, all impartial users I've talked to agree that HKs are very accurate. Mine is, and is more accurate than my gen3 19. However, it isn't more accurate than my Gen4 17 or my Beretta Elite, in my hands, that is. Of course, those two have a longer sight radius, so that may matter.

Good to know that my experience mirrors that of others, and isn't based off bias or lack of ability. Thanks for sharing YVK.

DreadPirateMoyer
09-18-13, 08:11
There is rarely an objectivity in such things.

There is when shooting from a rest.

Hogsgunwild
09-18-13, 08:55
I didn't find them to be any more accurate than my PPQ,Beretta,or Glocks.They (HK's)all had a horrible trigger compared to my PPQ, which are all $500 guns.Good guns, but for $900 I think people expect a little more. Sorry, just my experience.

YVK is correct on the objectivity. I can take any of the range rental P30s at my range and shoot tighter groups than with any of my three 9MM PPQs or even my full-custom Chuck Rogers Colt and Springfield Pro (which I have sold both 1911s off recently). I like the triggers, even in double action. I also realize that the P30 triggers limit my speed with the gun. I am not as fast with them but when I attempt to shoot them fast, they hit as if in autopilot mode. I could be content with their speed if I was up to speed with them, but, to walk in and grab a range-rental and immediately start making tight groups makes the P30 very impressive to me.

YVK
09-18-13, 09:01
Good to know that my experience mirrors that of others, and isn't based off bias or lack of ability. Thanks for sharing YVK.

No prob. To be sure I am accurately expressing my experience, I do think HKs are more accurate than Gen3 Glocks, and I think gen4 17s, based on a small sample of mine and my friends', are more accurate than Glocks of previous generations. I don't claim truth, but that's my experience.
Also, in fairness, the Beretta I have is now discontinued comp-oriented gun with a match-grade factory barrel. I've no experience with service-grade Beretta guns.


There is when shooting from a rest.

I am not so sure, although obviously it is a correct methodology. Doesn't eliminate trigger control or anticipation issues though, if by rest you mean supported. Somebody on this board once tried to explain to me that even Ransom rest doesn't work for some guns, when I posted that my gen3 printed about 3 inch groups. I subscribe to what I posted above - different loads, different days, different conditions, different shooters, average it out.

officerX
09-18-13, 09:02
I've never shot anything but Glock (aside from my Dad's Ruger revolvers when I was a kid) so I can't really compare them to anything. And I've only owned/shot gen 3 Glocks so I can't compare them to any other gen. But I've never had ANY issues from the 4 gen 3 Glocks I own. I think I'll always be a Glock man.

Hogsgunwild
09-18-13, 11:16
A lot of variables involved of course, but, I have convinced myself that I lose a tiny bit of accuracy from the slightly mushy trigger on the PPQ and Glock (owned / own four and eight, respectively) when compared to the H&K (LEM or DA/SA) or the P99AS. I gain speed from the Glock and PPQ but I am not good enough to harness all of that speed and keep it accurate, so, for me, I prefer the crisp break on the P99 and even the P30 (a bit slower in my hands than the P99). Splitting hairs on preferences here, I know, because the Glocks, PPQs H&Ks and P99s are all more than accurate enough for the purpose that they were designed for. Anyone that is dedicated would be well served with any of these guns as long as it was reliable.

One variable that has stood out since I began shooting Glocks in 1991 was that the wide framed ones (20, 21, 29 and 30) act like any other gun in my hands and to this day I am extremely satisfied with how they shoot. The thinner framed ones are not so ideal for me and require a lot of work and finesse (note there is an entire thread here presently devoted to this subject).

Gutshot John
09-18-13, 11:32
I'm seeing a trend...everyone has their own preferences for reasons specific to them.

Interesting.

No right answer.

Unkle Kurt
09-18-13, 13:03
This thread makes me want a CZ or Sig, lol.

Hogsgunwild
09-18-13, 20:42
This thread makes me want a CZ or Sig, lol.

I have only had one CZ, The SP-01 Shadow. The P30 was more accurate. The CZ was way heavier than any of the Glocks, Walthers or H&Ks discussed in this thread. My CZ had a mechanical issue.

Between the weight and the issue (faulty trigger, needed repair, they took good care of me) CZ is a joke for a carry gun, to me. Sigs can be great but still heavy versus what is on the market for a carry gun.