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ca_fireman19
09-26-13, 22:13
Would a Beretta M9 make a good pistol for a 3gun begginer?

Koshinn
09-26-13, 23:47
An M9 isn't a good pistol for anything, imo. But if you already have one, run it until it starts to hold you back.

foxtrotx1
09-26-13, 23:47
You're going to get alot of haters showing up whenever you talk about the beretta. It's a polarizing pistol, due in part to it being the successor of the 1911 in military service.

Their complaints will be as follows:

1.) Locking blocks break.
2.) DA/SA trigger is guaranteed to slow you down.
3.) It's large for the caliber and round count.
4.) The open top is a vector for dirt caused malfunctions.
5.) They break and malfunction all the time in military service.
6.) It's heavy

Let's address those concerns:

Locking block issue was fixed years ago with he introduction of the gen 3 locking blocks. Search the net and you will see some shooters with blocks lasting over 100k rounds.

DA/SA didn't slow down the guy who won a national champ with it a few years back. It's all personal preference.

It's about the same size as another popular pistol, the P226. Beretta now makes 17 round mags that are flush fitting. Mecgar makes 18 round mags that are just about flush fitting.

I've had mine in the dusty Arizona desert plenty of times without malfunction. Debris in the top just gets flung away. I've never seen a malfunction with a 92 using good mags and enough lube. Sure, its no glock, it won't run dry nearly as well.

The military doesn't keep track of parts life. They recycle parts and don't change the recoil springs at proper intervals, no shit it's going to break.

It's lighter fully loaded than a 1911 and has over double the round count. If you want light, buy a polymer pistol. The weight makes it an extremely light shooter that is very fast back on target.

This guy has put well over 100,000rds through 92s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue8_uN0OIVs

Buy the pistol you like and shoot the best. Let the haters hate.

By the way, the new 92A1 models have interchangeable sights. A useful feature.

I personally sold my Glock 34 and 26 after falling in love with the 92. So, I may or may not be Bias.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa328/Foxtrotx1/DSC_1519.jpg (http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Foxtrotx1/media/DSC_1519.jpg.html)
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa328/Foxtrotx1/DSC_1525.jpg (http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Foxtrotx1/media/DSC_1525.jpg.html)

opngrnd
09-27-13, 04:46
I think Foxtrotx1 pretty much covered all the bases.

I'll throw in my perspective as well. I'm a big M&P and Glock fan when it comes to 9mm pistols. My personally owned 9mm is an M&P9 FS. I got into the M9 because it was issued to me, and I hated it because I am supposed to hate it, being an "enlightened" M&P/Glock guy.

But after running enough rounds through it and doing enough dry fire practice, I'm a bit of a convert. I normally wouldn't put it ahead of the M&P or Glock, especially given it's overall size. However, with the M&P accuracy issues and the current Glock reliability problems, I don't sit so high and mighty on my polymer pistol horse right now.

Is it my preferred pistol? NO. Is it a good pistol? YES. If you aren't already sold on a polymer pistol, or if you don't care to gamble with the M&P/Glock odds, it isn't a bad choice in its price range.

Just my .02 cents.

Straight Shooter
09-27-13, 06:42
I LOVED my M9. ONLY reason I sold it was to conglomerate all my defense pistols into one type...Glock. IF an experienced shooter has run one and found it not to his liking after many rounds, so be it. The internet world is the greatest recycler of complete bullshit mankind has ever invented, and lies, and damn lies about the gun will never cease to exist. My gun had right about 6,300 rounds thru it before I sold it, and it NEVER once bobbled, ever. Was THE most accurate 9mm ive ever fired, and the 2nd most accurate pistol Ive ever fired.
Completely, utterly reliable and dependable. Use Beretta mags only,
go to an 18lb spring and ditch the 13lb-er, SHOOT & TRAIN with the gun, use the best defense ammo you can find, mine loved 124gr anything, and live long and prosper.

USMC_Anglico
09-27-13, 07:06
You're going to get alot of haters showing up whenever you talk about the beretta. It's a polarizing pistol, due in part to it being the successor of the 1911 in military service.

Their complaints will be as follows:

1.) Locking blocks break.
2.) DA/SA trigger is guaranteed to slow you down.
3.) It's large for the caliber and round count.
4.) The open top is a vector for dirt caused malfunctions.
5.) They break and malfunction all the time in military service.
6.) It's heavy


Excellent reasoned post on the Beretta. My perspective is a military user for the last 10+ years. I also use 1911's and Glocks in 9mm. I have no animosity towards the pistol, to me they are all tools and I'd like to use the better one.

One thing not mentioned is the ergonomics. The pistol is very fat around the grips. I have a large hand (size 11-12 in gloves) and even I don't like the grip size. Smaller hands usually have more problems. The slide mounted safety/decocker is also another ergonomic issue. If you utilize "traditional" or "standard" immediate action drills, there is a very good chance of de-cocking the gun. If you don't double check, "click" instead of "bang"; if you do incorporate the extra step of checking the decocking lever, then it's a time loss however small.

The DA/SA trigger is a training issue. You must spend more time training on that trigger than a SA type trigger. That becomes a time and money for ammo equation.

The only plus I give to the 92 is that they are usually very accurate shooters, other than that pistol design has moved past them.

Bottom line as said before, if you already have one, then shoot it. If you really want one for some reason then get one. Otherwise I would move along to more ergonomic modern pistol designs.

Failure2Stop
09-27-13, 07:42
Ben Stoeger has a very good record with a Beretta 92, as did Ernie Langdon.

It's a decent blaster, like several other options. Biggest issue with them is if you have a slide mounted decocker/safety. Not a big deal if you get the decocker only option.

There are good and bad things about DA/SA, train the transition and you'll be fine.

The inability to easily change the front sight kinda sucks.

I haven't shot one in years, but I used to shoot them pretty well.

All in all, they work, but wouldn't be my first (or 5th) choice.



Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

CrazyFingers
09-27-13, 08:15
I've run one for five years, with thousands of rounds through it (mostly cheap stuff, FC, WWB, etc.). I can count the stoppages on one hand.
Some people have a strange hatred for the M9, but then some people have a strange hatred for Glock, S&W, Sig, etc. For me, it's been a reliable and accurate pistol.
Sure, it's larger and heavier than some other 9mm pistols, making concealed carry trickier (if that matters to you), and holds 15 rounds default. Best advice - try one and see how it feels and how you shoot it. Carefully consider the pros and cons before making a purchase, and remember that no pistol is perfect (even if they claim to be in their corporate logo :D )

billybronco
09-27-13, 08:26
keep in mind.....DA/SA guns are going to slow you down.

once drawn, you have to consider either cocking to go to SA or pushing through that DA weight to get the first round off.

don't know about you or anybody else but it takes a LOT of practice in DA mode to get that first round on target and not dip the muzzle and throw that first shot. typically, for me at least, the second round is usually off target a bit b/c i tend to follow up the second shot very quickly after the first as my brain wants to tell my hand that the second trigger pull will be as heavy as the first. therefore, i tend to snatch it.

that, coupled with the fact that you MUST decock AND go to safe before holstering or get DQ'd makes hammer guns atrocious options for 3 gun.

IMO, at least. granted, i'm no grandmaster. just my observations.

plus, it's a big-ass, sharp edged, snagtastic hunk of metal.

Straight Shooter
09-27-13, 08:45
Big? Yes.
Sharp edged, and snaggy? Not to me, in my experience, both personally and militarily. The one and only complaint I can say is true is the grip size is too big for some. was perfect for me.
I don't understand, what was "sharp" on the gun?

Pilot1
09-27-13, 08:48
You're going to get alot of haters showing up whenever you talk about the beretta. It's a polarizing pistol, due in part to it being the successor of the 1911 in military service.

Their complaints will be as follows:

1.) Locking blocks break.
2.) DA/SA trigger is guaranteed to slow you down.
3.) It's large for the caliber and round count.
4.) The open top is a vector for dirt caused malfunctions.
5.) They break and malfunction all the time in military service.
6.) It's heavy

Let's address those concerns:

Locking block issue was fixed years ago with he introduction of the gen 3 locking blocks. Search the net and you will see some shooters with blocks lasting over 100k rounds.

DA/SA didn't slow down the guy who won a national champ with it a few years back. It's all personal preference.

It's about the same size as another popular pistol, the P226. Beretta now makes 17 round mags that are flush fitting. Mecgar makes 18 round mags that are just about flush fitting.

I've had mine in the dusty Arizona desert plenty of times without malfunction. Debris in the top just gets flung away. I've never seen a malfunction with a 92 using good mags and enough lube. Sure, its no glock, it won't run dry nearly as well.

The military doesn't keep track of parts life. They recycle parts and don't change the recoil springs at proper intervals, no shit it's going to break.

It's lighter fully loaded than a 1911 and has over double the round count. If you want light, buy a polymer pistol. The weight makes it an extremely light shooter that is very fast back on target.

This guy has put well over 100,000rds through 92s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue8_uN0OIVs

Buy the pistol you like and shoot the best. Let the haters hate.

By the way, the new 92A1 models have interchangeable sights. A useful feature.

I personally sold my Glock 34 and 26 after falling in love with the 92. So, I may or may not be Bias.


SPOT ON! I avoided the 92 series since I started seriously shooting pistols in the early 90's, until I shot a friends six months ago. Now I have two, a full size Italian made 92FS in Bruniton finish, and a new Compact L INOX. Both have been flawless, accurate, and easy to shoot.

Oh yeah, the reason I avoided the 92 is because the safety is slide mounted, and works opposite to all my other pistols. Guess what? It is unnecessary. I don't need a safety on a DA/SA pistol, so I just don't use it, except as a decocker.

YVK
09-27-13, 09:08
Would a Beretta M9 make a good pistol for a 3gun begginer?

I am making a slow switch. Mine is a 92G Elite II, a gun that F2S alluded to bringing fantastic results to top competitive shooters.

I've not had that much fun learning a gun for a long time. DA is a challenge but fun, SA is just plain silly. There some ergonomic issues for me, but not prohibitive so far. I am planning to shoot a state match with it even though I only worked with it for a month or so.

If you can't swing the Elite, get a regular 92G to avoid safety/decocking issues, put a D-spring, and go shoot it. Learn rolling through DA shot, everything else will follow.

billybronco
09-27-13, 09:17
the gun is very angular.....perhaps not sharp in the sense that it'll injure you but it's definitely more likely to snag on something as opposed to a Glock or M&P.

hammer, boxy sharp edged sights, etc.

jondoe297
09-27-13, 09:18
I have a decent amount of experience with the platform, using it for everything from civilian CCW, to LEO duty weapon, to training platform as an instructor. That being said, I'm a big fan of the 92-series. Is it perfect? No, but what is?
I'm not a huge fan of the safety lever, so I ended up transitioning to the 92G model, which solved that problem.
Bottom line is, if you take care of a 92 it will take care of you.

DanjojoUSMC
09-27-13, 14:08
Your best bet is practice with/learn from someone who can really use a DA/SA pistol well. Do lots of dry-fire practice with at least 50 DA pulls per day.

All name brand DA/SA pistols can basically be set up for a smooth DA pull of 7-9 lbs and rather nice SA with 3-4 lbs pretty easily. Over time you might well prefer the smooth, consistent pull on that first DA shot better than the two-stage with "wall" of the trigger mechanisms more in style and be more anticipation resistant early on.

theblackknight
09-27-13, 14:58
I wouldn't mind shooting a elite II with a g model decocker only, but they are almost as rare as the gun Ben Stugger shoots now.

sent from mah gun,using my sights

ca_fireman19
09-27-13, 15:30
I have experience with a DA/SA. I carried a Beretta 96 for years. My question was more to the focus on 3gun competition. I already own an M9 and I figured the low recoil of the 9mm would make for a good choice for rapid target engagement.

JBecker 72
09-27-13, 15:49
I really enjoy shooting my M9. I bought one strictly as a range gun and it's been a great pistol. That's about the extent of my experience with it tho, just killing paper targets.

59Bassman
09-27-13, 16:38
I shot 3 gun with my wife's 92 for a few months before I bought a CZ 75 Shadow. I had heard the DA/SA transition would cause gout, halitosis, and early onset male pattern baldness. I knew that it was impossible to get the first shot on target, so you might as well waste one downrange to get to SA mode.

What I found was that the 92 was a very capable 3-gun pistol. On the clock, I never felt the DA trigger difference, and I did not lose a single target due to the DA/SA transition. The size and weight make shooting the mighty 9mm feel like a cap gun. 15 round mags are everywhere.

That experience got me to turn from a striker fired gun and look at the CZ, which has been an outstanding gun for me. The 92 will work, but IMHO the only disadvantage is the safety. If you're on a stage with a pistol abandon, it needs to be left with the safety on. Most matches I've been to, if the safety's not on, you're DQed. Glock shooters love it when an STI or CZ shooter gets DQed for not properly safing a pistol.

On the Beretta, the safety lever is a bit harder to manipulate, and may cost you a little bit of time. But if you like the gun, go with it. Get those 20 round Mec Gar mags and hose away.

Averageman
09-27-13, 19:10
I didn't like it when in the military, after the first year or two we began to see many of the above mentioned failures. More than anything we saw magazines fail at a greater rate than any of the above mentioned items though.

Armati
09-27-13, 20:25
Would a Beretta M9 make a good pistol for a 3gun begginer?

Yes.

Many are available second hand. If you buy one without a Gen 3 locking block, make sure you order the Gen 3 block kit. Shoot the original one till it breaks. It will almost never fail all at once. One lug will crack or break off first. It will continue to fire with just one lug.

In time, you may want to replace some parts. Your first upgrade should be to a 92D hammer spring. It is about a $2 part and will really improve your trigger pull.

Then buy a 92 Elite hammer (about $35). You pistol will now have a DA trigger about like a fine S&W wheelgun.

In time you may want to consider a the Buffer Tech guide rod and Wolff trigger spring replacement.

I have smallish hands (wide palms, short fingers). I like the Crimson Trace grips when shooting with no gloves. With gloves I prefer the older Hogue flat rubber grips.

Some strategically placed grip tape will also come in handy.

When you can out shoot Todd Jarrett then consider moving on to a different gun.

Alaskapopo
09-27-13, 20:35
If you already own one use it until you can get something better. If your looking to buy then no. No reason to buy a pistol that will handicap you. I would love it if all the guys shooting against me chose to use a Beretta.
Pat

ramairthree
09-27-13, 21:04
I agree with the sentiment that if you already have one, go for it.

If you do not already have one, and are getting a pistol for 3-gun only, you have many other options you may want to try in the same price range.

If you are getting it to use for three gun, but have other uses for it:
they are very reliable when properly maintained and lubed

they are very accurate

the weight is a plus for recoil

there will never be a shortage of magazines for this pistol, they are everywhere

You can often find LE trade in 92Gs on Gunbroker, etc. for very reasonable prices.

The 92s have a radius on the backstrap that helps with grip size, to my knowledge the M9 offerings still do not

Armati
09-27-13, 23:31
I would love it if all the guys shooting against me chose to use a Beretta.
Pat

http://www.toddjarrett.com/champion-shooter-todd-jarrett.php

Ahem....

Alaskapopo
09-28-13, 00:10
http://www.toddjarrett.com/champion-shooter-todd-jarrett.php

Ahem....

Yea and he is not shooting limited or open in USPSA or tac optics or open in three gun with that Beretta. Also its more a case of Jarrett being that good and being able to over come the disadvantage of the DA SA Beretta. Like when I shot using my 38 snubby against the other guys on the department using their Glock 17's and beating them. Its not the gun its the shooter. Basically Jarrett wins in spite of the Beretta not because of it. In fact I don't know of one pro shooter in three gun using a DA SA gun. The reason for that is three gun does not have a production type division not allowing single action triggers. When no one good is using a DA SA gun that is what we call a clue. In production they can be competitive if you slick the hell out of the DA first shot and get it down around 6 to 8 pounds. What is also funny is on the link you provided it shows Jarrett shooting a 1911.
Pat

opngrnd
09-28-13, 01:22
Since you already have the pistol, shoot away. There are a few modifications you can do for the trigger weight, but beyond that, your level of skill will determine how well you do.

I was a hater at one point. But if I already owned the pistol, it's what I'd run. I saw the other day that 10-8 Performance is releasing a rear sight for the gun. I'd personally grab one when it comes out.

Buy extra mags and a buttload of ammo and go for it.

ca_fireman19
09-28-13, 01:27
I know this is going to open up a whole new can of worms, as well as possibly start a few arguments, but...without blowing thousands of dollars on some tricked out "race gun", what would be a fairly competitive platform that I can purchase and shoot stock, and maybe modify as I go? Mind you I'm in California so anything you recommend must be on this list, http://certguns.doj.ca.gov, OR be readily available via a private party within California.

59Bassman
09-28-13, 03:31
Something to buy and be able to mod as you go? That's a different kettle of fish. IMHO, one choice.

Buy a Glock 34.

You won't be able to break it, mags, holsters, and parts are available at every gun store on the planet. Longer sight radius. Out of the box legal in 3 gun, USPSA, and IDPA. Lots of options to modify it to illegal status in one or more of those if you so choose.

I hate Glocks. With an unholy passion. But if someone isn't dead-set against them, and is just getting started, the Glock 34 is (again, IMHO) the best bet.

Straight Shooter
09-28-13, 06:44
What Im saying... is I AGREE the gun probably isn't the best, or maybe even a wise choice, for high level, NTH DEGREE shooting.
Not what it was made for. As a defense, duty, home gun, that can be kept in a completely safe state, yet be instantly made ready to fire, its a fine reliable weapon. I do DISAGREE with it being our current military issue weapon. As long as we are bound to using FMJ ammo, I disagree with ANY 9mm as our sidearm, frankly.

I did all the mods Armati recommended, and mine was a laser, and 100% reliable for 6,300 rounds or so. The old BULLSHIT about locking lugs breaking, fellas, FEW of you will shoot that much to see it, and its a $30-$40 fix and a couple minutes time when it does, then its ready for tens of thousands more rounds. Ive ALWAYS believed that part of the problem was the puny ass 13lb recoil spring. DITCH THAT THING RIGHT OFF THE BAT....and get a heavier spring, I ran an 18lb Wolff.

JonInWA
09-28-13, 07:43
For the past seven years or so, I've been exceptionally pleased with my made-in-1996/bought by me brand-new-in-box 2006 DAO 92D. The DAO trigger is very similar to that on a tuned S&W revolver. Mine came with OEM Trijicon sights, providing a quite good day and night sight picture. To thin the girth, I switched to the superb Trausch grips, but those are currently made of unobtanium, as Jacques Trausch recently passed away and the company appears to be in limbo.

The trigger return spring has been replaced with Wolff's Trigger Conversion Unit (TCU), which, in it's lighter weighting provides superb durability (the OEM spring will probably last around 2K trigger manipulations-an aggressive dry-fire program will achieve that very quickly...) and the same feel as the OEM spring (but if you have a newer 92 with the polymer trigger, you'll need to replace it with Beretta's steel triger first to be able to use the TCU-Beretta has an inexpensive component kit which includes the steel trigger, D main spring, recoil spring, and an OEM trigger return spring).

In thousands of rounds fired (including 3 IDPA sanctioned state matches) I've had one jam, and that was a shooter-induced one with insufficient grip when shooting weak-hand only.

And yes, the 92 is more lubrication-intensive than a Glock.

While overall I prefer, and shoot better, my Glocks, the Beretta is a very credible choice, and one whose quality has been maintained.

Best, Jon

DanjojoUSMC
09-28-13, 07:44
If you want to trick out over time you can get a SP-01 and slowly transform it into a custom Shadow.

decodeddiesel
09-28-13, 10:03
About once year or so I get the itch for an M9. To say I have a history with the platform is an understatement. I have certainly fired these enough in training to not have an issue with the DA/SA trigger pull. It would be for the most part a range toy (like my 1911), and about the only time I could see carrying it would be in an open carry situation camping, backpacking, or ATV riding.

M9 modified with C&S trigger parts and CTC grips in a G-Code SOC-RTI has a certain appeal for a lot of reasons.

Time to go watch Die Hard. :cool:

Talon167
09-28-13, 13:28
It's a good gun. The DA/SA thing is evident, obviously, and not ideal IMO. But, there is the "D spring" you can buy for $5 from Brownelles that will reduce the weight of the DA pull.

I am also not a huge fan of the slide mounted safety, just because doing clearing drills and stuff it can get in the way and activate.

But, in my experience it's been solid. First pistol I bought; 15,500 rounds through.

samuse
09-28-13, 18:48
I like the M9, it's a great shootin' gun. But I can't get over the safety.

I've tryed, and even thought I had it beat, but I just can't get that safety off as consistently as I want to. Same problem I have with the CZ75. Can't get to the damn safety.

And it is a big deal. I once got into an extreme close quarters bind with a very large, aggressive wild boar hog that was mad at me. I missed the safety on my Marlin levergun and that second of fumbling it, almost cost me my ass.

But the M9 is a helluva good pistol.

Alaskapopo
09-28-13, 19:36
I know this is going to open up a whole new can of worms, as well as possibly start a few arguments, but...without blowing thousands of dollars on some tricked out "race gun", what would be a fairly competitive platform that I can purchase and shoot stock, and maybe modify as I go? Mind you I'm in California so anything you recommend must be on this list, http://certguns.doj.ca.gov, OR be readily available via a private party within California.

Glock 34, M&P Pro and XDM competition model. Those are the most popular guns going in three gun for the entry level. After that most of us are running custom 2011's.
Pat

Shawvez
09-28-13, 21:14
I enjoy shooting 92s. Theyre not the horrible widow/sgli makers that some claim. I find them accurate but non ergonomic. The weight makes recoil easily managed. I kind of want one after reading this thread.

Magic_Salad0892
09-28-13, 23:40
Very accurate. Pretty reliable. And a fun gun to shoot.

I got to shoot a Billenium once (SAO model) and it was probably the sweetest shooting pistol I've ever shot, besides a 5'' 9x19mm 1911.

I don't know if I'd pick one for social purposes.

My brother shoots an M9 pistol exclusively, and in stock configuration, and has been for a while.

He has good and bad things to say about it. Mostly good.

He's very accurate with it, but not as fast as with other guns.

foxtrotx1
09-29-13, 03:10
Shoot the gun you find the most enjoyable. 3 gun is about fun and learning what does and doesn't work for you. If you find that the Beretta is costing you matches, move on. If it's not costing you matches, then spend the money on ammo to keep improving.

ramairthree
09-29-13, 07:44
Glock 34, M&P Pro and XDM competition model. Those are the most popular guns going in three gun for the entry level. After that most of us are running custom 2011's.
Pat

Pat, do you know anyone that has used an XDM long term?

I also see a ton of Glock 17/34s in production, plenty of 34 limiteds and opens, and a small number of long term M&Ps in production.

I have seen a ton of new people show up with the XDMs, I think there was some deal where they got a holster, mag carrier, cases, and 5 mags (I think it is down to three mags now)

I use a Beretta,
but have a Glock 19 and 26. I often get tempted to get a 34 (which I would mod the grip to 19 size) and think about trying limited. (wrist / hand injury has kept me a 9mm guy past years for anything more than a few rounds). I would most likely play some SS or dust of the P14 for Limited if that was not the case.

But I have to say the XDM really interests me. Maybe not for CC/HD/Combat, etc., but as a game gun.

I would appreciate what you or others that have seen a lot of them used long term have noticed. Thanks.

Alaskapopo
09-29-13, 14:50
Pat, do you know anyone that has used an XDM long term?

I also see a ton of Glock 17/34s in production, plenty of 34 limiteds and opens, and a small number of long term M&Ps in production.

I have seen a ton of new people show up with the XDMs, I think there was some deal where they got a holster, mag carrier, cases, and 5 mags (I think it is down to three mags now)

I use a Beretta,
but have a Glock 19 and 26. I often get tempted to get a 34 (which I would mod the grip to 19 size) and think about trying limited. (wrist / hand injury has kept me a 9mm guy past years for anything more than a few rounds). I would most likely play some SS or dust of the P14 for Limited if that was not the case.

But I have to say the XDM really interests me. Maybe not for CC/HD/Combat, etc., but as a game gun.

I would appreciate what you or others that have seen a lot of them used long term have noticed. Thanks.

A couple of the guys have been using them for a few years now. Not my favorite but it seems to be a solid choice for the game.
Pat

sinlessorrow
09-30-13, 19:58
Is safety on hammer down a reqirement?

I keep my 92fs safety off and hammer cocked, it still has a firing pin safety, as long as you don't pull the trigger it can't go off.

Alaskapopo
09-30-13, 21:42
Is safety on hammer down a reqirement?

I keep my 92fs safety off and hammer cocked, it still has a firing pin safety, as long as you don't pull the trigger it can't go off.

That is not allowed and not a good way to carry a DA SA gun either.
Pat

ca_fireman19
09-30-13, 21:56
I always carried my 96 safety off with the hammer down...first shot always DA.

Krull
09-30-13, 22:32
Is safety on hammer down a reqirement?

I keep my 92fs safety off and hammer cocked, it still has a firing pin safety, as long as you don't pull the trigger it can't go off.

........
...........

Do me a favor and stay FAR away from me okay? that has got to be the stupidest thing I've read on a forum in a very long while :eek:

Anyway I always use the safety as a decock only and flip it off after I load it,it's DA so a safety isn't really needed.

Wish the M9 was made in a decock only version.....

Koshinn
09-30-13, 22:37
I always carried my 96 safety off with the hammer down...first shot always DA.

That's how the USAF carries it.

decodeddiesel
09-30-13, 22:40
Is safety on hammer down a reqirement?

I keep my 92fs safety off and hammer cocked, it still has a firing pin safety, as long as you don't pull the trigger it can't go off.

Without even a passive safety ala Glock/M&P, this is not a good way to carry a DA/SA. I have witnessed first hand someone AD an M9 when holstering after "going red" when leaving the wire in Mosul. He was a tabbed infantry captain, who was also a prior enlisted E5. He was a VERY competent soldier, but had a "moment". I'm not saying that by virtue of his rank or accomplishments was he an expert, but there's no denying he had his fair share of training on the weapon. He was wearing a gortex parka which as it turns out had fouled his holster and caused the AD/ND.

I can tell you that initially I was trained to decock, and holster with the weapon on safe. After roughly 10 years in the Army, the way we were taught to do it was to decock, return to fire, thumb over hammer as you holster the weapon. If I carried an M9 again this is how I would do it. YMMV

sinlessorrow
09-30-13, 23:14
........
...........

Do me a favor and stay FAR away from me okay? that has got to be the stupidest thing I've read on a forum in a very long while :eek:

Anyway I always use the safety as a decock only and flip it off after I load it,it's DA so a safety isn't really needed.

Wish the M9 was made in a decock only version.....

Why the 92fs has a trigger activated firing pin safety, it cannot go off unless you pull the trigger.

I do not see the issue with this, it is nearly identical to how Glocks work(aside from being deactivated slightly differently).

Both have a firing pin safety that is lifted via the trigger bar that is activated as you pull the trigger so why is it cool for Glocks only safety to be a firing pin safety, yet its dangerous for the Beretta? Glocks average 5.5lbs for trigger pulls, and all the 92's I have average 5lbs with hammer cocked.

williejc
10-01-13, 01:36
One reason not to carry the 92 cocked and unlocked is that the force required to pull the trigger is much less than doing same with a stock Glock or some other pistols like HK lems. Universally carried in this manner, the Beretta would quickly become the champion for negligent discharges. This method would be similar to carrying a Colt Single Action with the hammer cocked or a Smith revolver with the hammer cocked. Most if not all range masters would ban you, and in Tx the CHL bureau would send a visitor to your house if they were aware of this practice.

Please reconsider.

sinlessorrow
10-01-13, 02:13
One reason not to carry the 92 cocked and unlocked is that the force required to pull the trigger is much less than doing same with a stock Glock or some other pistols like HK lems. Universally carried in this manner, the Beretta would quickly become the champion for negligent discharges. This method would be similar to carrying a Colt Single Action with the hammer cocked or a Smith revolver with the hammer cocked. Most if not all range masters would ban you, and in Tx the CHL bureau would send a visitor to your house if they were aware of this practice.

Please reconsider.

What is the trigger pull on a Glock? My 92fs has a 5lb trigger pull with hammer cocked. From what I understand Glocks average 5.5lbs, I fail to see the huge difference in force required to pull the trigger with a .5lb difference.

Krull
10-01-13, 04:07
Why the 92fs has a trigger activated firing pin safety, it cannot go off unless you pull the trigger.

I do not see the issue with this, it is nearly identical to how Glocks work(aside from being deactivated slightly differently).

Both have a firing pin safety that is lifted via the trigger bar that is activated as you pull the trigger so why is it cool for Glocks only safety to be a firing pin safety, yet its dangerous for the Beretta? Glocks average 5.5lbs for trigger pulls, and all the 92's I have average 5lbs with hammer cocked.

My friend have you ever picked up a Glock and looked at it up close?

If not I suggest you do,you see it has this little nub on the trigger which has a little tab on the back that blocks the trigger from going all the way back and making a loud,unpleasant,and possibly fatal racket...

Other non striker fired guns don't have this and that "same 5.5 lb trigger" has no way to stop it going back and making a damn mess firing pin safety be damned.

i.e. the striker fired ones have some kind of block on the trigger so it won't go bang unless you stick yer booger hook on it.

Okay kimosabe?

ramairthree
10-01-13, 06:28
Wow,
are you extra cool and carry a 1911 cocked but not locked too?

The amount of hit to the trigger to fire either is minimal.

jr1572
10-01-13, 06:34
Is safety on hammer down a reqirement?

I keep my 92fs safety off and hammer cocked, it still has a firing pin safety, as long as you don't pull the trigger it can't go off.

Sounds dangerous and unsafe to me.

JR1572

Talon167
10-01-13, 07:40
Is safety on hammer down a reqirement?

I keep my 92fs safety off and hammer cocked, it still has a firing pin safety, as long as you don't pull the trigger it can't go off.

They are not designed to be carried in that manner. No DA/SA (without safety like the USP for example) gun is. Sigs, Berettas, etc.

Spout all day “it can’t go off” but fact of the matter is it’s dangerous, irresponsible, and again, was not the manufacturer’s intent on it being carried that way. You can talk about the Beretta SA trigger weight vs a Glock trigger weight, but when the Beretta is in SA you only have to pull the trigger about ¼” or less to get it to fire, whereas the Glock trigger requires “staging” each pull and the pull is much longer.

If you’re really concerned you can’t handle the DA pull, or the DA to SA transition, you can 1) Get rid of the gun for something simpler, or 2) buy the “D spring” for the Beretta and make the DA pull much lighter.

Do as you will, but put me on record as saying it’s a bad call.

jondoe297
10-01-13, 07:57
My friend have you ever picked up a Glock and looked at it up close?

If not I suggest you do,you see it has this little nub on the trigger which has a little tab on the back that blocks the trigger from going all the way back and making a loud,unpleasant,and possibly fatal racket...

Other non striker fired guns don't have this and that "same 5.5 lb trigger" has no way to stop it going back and making a damn mess firing pin safety be damned.

i.e. the striker fired ones have some kind of block on the trigger so it won't go bang unless you stick yer booger hook on it.

Okay kimosabe?

This. And also the distance of the trigger pull is greater on the Glock than it is on the Beretta when it's in SA.
sinlessorrow: Carrying a DA/SA pistol "cocked and unlocked" is begging for an unfortunate incident to happen. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, and acting as though you've found the secret to running a Beretta in ultra high-speed mode, practice working with the DA/SA transition.

TiroFijo
10-01-13, 08:12
What is the trigger pull on a Glock? My 92fs has a 5lb trigger pull with hammer cocked. From what I understand Glocks average 5.5lbs, I fail to see the huge difference in force required to pull the trigger with a .5lb difference.

Compared to a glock, involuntary discharge is MUCH easier with a beretta M9 in SA:

- The glock has a longer trigger pull with much more resistance felt from the beggining of the stroke (how much force in each phase of this esentially two stage trigger depends on the trigger spring and connector used, and is subject to debate) compared to SA with the beretta. There is a lot of "feedback" to the finger and brain to understand what is going on. The M9 has a long takeup that weights next to nothing, then the trigger breaks. The factory glocks are around 5.5-6.0 lbs, the berettas 5.0 or less.

- The glock trigger has center lever that has to be pressed to operate the trigger, the beretta does not.

- The glock striker is only pre-loaded a small fraction, you have to complete the mounting by pulling the trigger. Even if the striker is dischaged for some reason and the firing pin safety fails, the pistol will not fire.

Please DO NOT carry like this, it is an accident waiting to happen. I would not tolerate anyone near me to carry a gun like this. What's next? Carrying a cocked S&W DA revolver or a condition zero 1911 S80 with 5.0 lbs trigger pulls would be OK too? Both have safety devices to impede firing if the gun is dropped, but this and the weight of the trigger are only a parts of the issue.

jondoe297
10-01-13, 09:45
Please DO NOT carry like this, it is negligence waiting to happen.

I think that's more accurate, given the questionable logic involved here.

ca_fireman19
10-01-13, 13:48
Wow,
are you extra cool and carry a 1911 cocked but not locked too?

The amount of hit to the trigger to fire either is minimal.

I always carry my 1911 cocked and locked...safety on, too.

Talon167
10-01-13, 14:07
I always carry my 1911 cocked and locked...safety on, too.

That's what the "locked" part means. ;)

ramairthree
10-01-13, 16:25
I always carry my 1911 cocked and locked...safety on, too.

I was not commenting on your 96 carried safety off and hammer down. Perfectly normal. Heck, they even make the G models so you can do it and never put the safety on by accident manipulating the slide or whatever on an FS.

I was pointing out to cocked/safety off Berreta M9 carrier that doing so is the same as carrying a 1911 hammer back and safety off.

Enough dipshits manage to have negligent discharges with Glocks, revolvers, etc. that I could only guess how many more there would be if people carried their revolvers and SA semi pistols hammer back no safeties.

DanjojoUSMC
10-01-13, 16:58
I think sinless is just having fun.

Adding to it, I don't know anybody carrying a Glock with a stock trigger. Everybody decides for themselves what is long enough and heavy enough without a real safety being activated. Some members on here have even mentioned using the new-ish Skimmer trigger on their duty gun.

Glocks were designed to be carried condition 3 (like all Euro military pistols were) and recommended that route until they went after the LEO market who obviously would not want to do so. Some old 80's interviews and articles people can look up online go in detail.

TiroFijo
10-01-13, 17:21
I think sinless is just having fun.

Adding to it, I don't know anybody carrying a Glock with a stock trigger. Everybody decides for themselves what is long enough and heavy enough without a real safety being activated. Some members on here have even mentioned using the new-ish Skimmer trigger on their duty gun.

Glocks were designed to be carried condition 3 (like all Euro military pistols were) and recommended that route until they went after the LEO market who obviously would not want to do so. Some old 80's interviews and articles people can look up online go in detail.

Perhaps all the .mil and federal/police agencies users "decide for themselves" what is their ideal glock trigger? What about the same kind of users in other countries (lots of them)? I think there are plenty of "serious" users with stock triggers...

I don't know what was exactly the intention of good 'ol Mr. Glock when he designed the pistol (he was fairly new at this), and I don't know if JMB or the US Army designed the 1911 for condition one carry. But sometimes things evolve in mysterious ways. The point-and-shoot glock trigger has been widely copied in the most up to date designs, and even HK is rumored to bring a striker polymer pistol to the market soon.

lowbar
10-01-13, 17:55
The Beretta M9 is a great pistol and is damn sexy to look at. I just didn't shoot it that well. Maybe it was the snowman sights or maybe it was the wide grip. But, for some reason I just wasn't that accurate with it. With that said, I had to pass it on. I was considering keeping her in the stable as a range toy, but you know the saying......... Sell one to get one. Although I still haven't replaced her with anything........ YET!

AJD
10-01-13, 18:39
My P30 V3 DA/SA has as long a take-up and is heavier in trigger pull in SINGLE ACTION than my PPQ which also has a shorter reset. Just as FYI.

JusticeM4
10-01-13, 19:12
I have experience with a DA/SA. I carried a Beretta 96 for years. My question was more to the focus on 3gun competition. I already own an M9 and I figured the low recoil of the 9mm would make for a good choice for rapid target engagement.

If you already own it and have experience with the DA/SA trigger of the M9/92 then you should be fine.

I'm a M&P and Glock shooter, but after trying out my friend's M9 I really liked that pistol. Excellent SA trigger and soft recoil due to the weight. If you don't mind the first DA shot and are used to it, you should be fine with 3-gun or IDPA.

I've done IDPA with M&P and 3gun with a Glock. Both are great handguns. I would not hesitate to use a M9; the lighter SA trigger would actually benefit you on follow up shoots.

jondoe297
10-01-13, 22:05
I think sinless is just having fun.


I thought so at first, until I saw the 6 page thread he spawned on the Beretta Forum trying to get his point from here validated.

Sadly, there's a few people that go full retard backing him up.

http://www.berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=102475

ca_fireman19
10-02-13, 03:20
That's what the "locked" part means. ;)

I could very well be mistaken, but I was told that "locked" referee to the weapon being in battery...i.e. The barrel lugs...idk.

jondoe297
10-02-13, 07:38
I could very well be mistaken, but I was told that "locked" referee to the weapon being in battery...i.e. The barrel lugs...idk.

"Cocked and Locked" is hammer back, safety engaged.

TiroFijo
10-02-13, 07:57
My P30 V3 DA/SA has as long a take-up and is heavier in trigger pull in SINGLE ACTION than my PPQ which also has a shorter reset. Just as FYI.

Perhaps you have an older PPQ. The newer PPQs have heavier triggers, 5.6 lbs according to their web site:

http://www.waltherarms.com/products/handguns/ppq-m2/

The P30 V3 has about a nominal 4.5 lbs SA (individual specimens may vary, as always). I don't know how long is the takeup compared to the PPQ, but you have to remember that the takeup in a SA pistol has very little weigh (and less feedback) than the takeup in most DAO actions where there is more initial resistance. In this sense, the PPQ has a fully precocked striker (as opposed to the glock and M&P) so its trigger feels different.

There are many studies on sympathetic response, startle reactions, etc. that point up to the need of a good feedback and some take up length in a duty trigger. A "safe" SAO trigger should have both some weight AND take up that is not too short. This said, we all know that the shooter is the most important factor.

The lightest the trigger and the shorter the takeup the easiest to fire it fast and accurately, so you have to compromise somewhere and it is subject to debate. I think the stock glock trigger is about right in both weight and take up, you may change the feel, the take up weight, or the weight when the trigger breaks, but IMO it is going to end up around there.

rvb
10-02-13, 13:40
Would a Beretta M9 make a good pistol for a 3gun begginer?

It'll do just fine. I made master in uspsa w/ a 92 variant (Elite2). The gun won't hold you back.

The only downside is many 3-gun matches require the safety be on if you dump the pistol to grab a long gun, and the m9 safety can be hard for some folks to quickly engage (depending on hand size, etc) and can easily be bumped off safe if you set it down wrong. Striker guns w/o safeties are popular for this reason.

In the long run, the M9 has a couple of other downsides, especially the inability to change sights. but I wouldn't let that keep you from getting started.

-rvb

decodeddiesel
10-02-13, 15:29
I thought so at first, until I saw the 6 page thread he spawned on the Beretta Forum trying to get his point from here validated.

Sadly, there's a few people that go full retard backing him up.

http://www.berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=102475

Followed the link and wished I hadn't. :stop:

Alaskapopo
10-02-13, 17:14
I think sinless is just having fun.

Adding to it, I don't know anybody carrying a Glock with a stock trigger. Everybody decides for themselves what is long enough and heavy enough without a real safety being activated. Some members on here have even mentioned using the new-ish Skimmer trigger on their duty gun.

Glocks were designed to be carried condition 3 (like all Euro military pistols were) and recommended that route until they went after the LEO market who obviously would not want to do so. Some old 80's interviews and articles people can look up online go in detail.

That is not correct. No where in my training as an armorer nor in the research I have done has there been any evidence to support that claim. Nor was the Beretta or Sig and other European auto pistols designed to be carried chamber empty.

Alaskapopo
10-02-13, 17:16
Why the 92fs has a trigger activated firing pin safety, it cannot go off unless you pull the trigger.

I do not see the issue with this, it is nearly identical to how Glocks work(aside from being deactivated slightly differently).

Both have a firing pin safety that is lifted via the trigger bar that is activated as you pull the trigger so why is it cool for Glocks only safety to be a firing pin safety, yet its dangerous for the Beretta? Glocks average 5.5lbs for trigger pulls, and all the 92's I have average 5lbs with hammer cocked.

With Glocks you also have a safety tap on the face of the trigger itself. Carrying a gun they way you are is foolish.
Pat

AJD
10-02-13, 18:08
It's a double standard. Many people carrying striker fired guns with light trigger pulls, lighter than many TDA guns in single action.

Would I recommend carrying a TDA in single action with no safety? Of course not but the differences between the single action of many TDA guns and many striker fired triggers is minimal.

My suggestion is you carry the gun the way it was designed. If its a TDA, hammer down on a live round(no safety), striker fired, striker cocked on a live round(no safety), if its a SAO, hammer cocked with safety on with live round in the chamber. All have advantages and drawbacks, there is "no free lunch" to be had trying to circumvent a trigger system to gain an advantage you will pay in some way or another.

jondoe297
10-03-13, 09:17
That is not correct. No where in my training as an armorer nor in the research I have done has there been any evidence to support that claim.

Although I don't have the article handy to back up my claim, the Austrian Military, whose specifications the G17 were designed under, carried "Condition Three". Being that Gaston Glock took the specifications and requirements that the Austrian Military laid out for their next service pistol and built the Glock 17 around it, it could be surmised that it was assumed that the pistol would be carried with an empty chamber. However, I think that it would be presumptuous to state that it was designed to be carried that way.
The Armorer class that I attended with Glock made no mention of the Austrian Military specifications other than repeatedly throwing the phrase "Austrian Military Design" into the lecture portions of the class.

jondoe297
10-03-13, 10:58
It's a double standard. Many people carrying striker fired guns with light trigger pulls, lighter than many TDA guns in single action.



You're not talking "Apples to apples" comparison though. You're talking about a person performing a modification to a weapon, altering it from it's original configuration.
Take any widely available striker-fired pistol and do a dry fire comparison with any widely-available DA/SA pistol in SA mode. Tell me which one requires more physical effort to fire it. Trigger weight is not the only factor that determines the amount of effort needed to pull it.

AJD
10-03-13, 17:08
That would be correct that they modified the gun but the point still remains in my view. No?

Also trigger weight isn't the only factor but in my view its the biggest factor. To be honest I find a PPQ to be just as easy to fire as my 92F, USP, SIG's, CZ's, etc. for the first shot. The difference is so minimal I would call it a non issue. A 1/10 of an inch more take-up and 1lb more trigger weight isn't a "big" difference in my view between some striker fired guns and the SA pull on some TDA guns.

Again, just to re-iterate I am NOT condoning carrying a TDA with the hammer cocked with no safety.