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dp13
09-27-13, 17:51
I searched but did not find anything other than WTS/WTB threads for the however many pages.

What is the general consensus on lasers for a pistol? Is it worth it or just get some tritium sights?

Thanks for your time.

The Dumb Gun Collector
09-27-13, 17:56
I am completely sold on them. Every time I go to a low light class I feel like a cheater.

dp13
09-27-13, 18:06
Thank you, I was hoping for a red or yellow named response.

Much obliged.

warpedcamshaft
09-27-13, 18:13
I am a Crimson Trace user... and my opinion is that they are very good, and I agree that they are incredible in low light.

They are useful with a couple of caveats I have discovered with time:

1: They require additional training to utilize properly. It seems some people I have encountered think of them as a magic device that will require less training overall, but this has not been my experience... It takes time to adapt to the laser and be able to transition back to the irons in bright light or if a failure occurs with the device.

2: You must treat the laser as your front sight... and focus on it visually and mentally while you break your shot. This takes practice and conditioning if you have spent a large amount of time with a front sight in front of your eyeball.

dp13
09-27-13, 18:32
Thanks again. As a guy who had 20+ years of MA training, I understand training less is never a good thing.

Averageman
09-27-13, 18:55
[QUOTE=warpedcamshaft;1758497]
They are useful with a couple of caveats I have discovered with time:

1: They require additional training to utilize properly. It seems some people I have encountered think of them as a magic device that will require less training overall, but this has not been my experience... It takes time to adapt to the laser and be able to transition back to the irons in bright light or if a failure occurs with the device.QUOTE]

This is for the most part my observation. I have two firends that have crimson trace lasers on pistols.
One guy experianced the complete wash out of the laser when transitioning from dark to light and had second thoughts as to the viability of using it at all for his puposes.
The second guy is an otherwise very intelligent guy, just not a very experianced shooter. He thinks the crimson trace is an excuse not to practise.
It's a tool that some folks mistake as the ONLY tool they will ever need.
Great marketing though...

SeriousStudent
09-27-13, 21:48
Crimson Trace 405's on the 642 in my left front pocket as I type this.

My nightstand G17 has a Surefire X300 and a CT grip on it as well.

denn1911
09-27-13, 22:25
Crimson Trace is the way to go. Although you may never have any issues, they have great customer service.

SteveL
09-27-13, 22:46
I have them on both of my M&Ps and IMO they are worth the money. I have never done a low light class with them, but just trying to aim your pistol in the dark with them vs. without them makes their usefulness very clear. The drawback is that they can give away your location if you're not careful with them. Use them sparingly, like you would a flashlight.

IMO, besides low light, they could also prove invaluable should you ever find yourself in a gunfight and are unable to bring your gun up to attain proper sight alignment due to shooting around cover or while injured. Hopefully I'll never have to test this theory first-hand though.


This is for the most part my observation. I have two firends that have crimson trace lasers on pistols.
One guy experianced the complete wash out of the laser when transitioning from dark to light and had second thoughts as to the viability of using it at all for his puposes.
The second guy is an otherwise very intelligent guy, just not a very experianced shooter. He thinks the crimson trace is an excuse not to practise.
It's a tool that some folks mistake as the ONLY tool they will ever need.
Great marketing though...

The first time I tried shooting with mine I was shocked at how much WORSE I shot with them than I do without them. They definitely require training/acclimation time to get used to them. However, they can be a valuable training tool all by themselves. When used for dry fire practice, a laser will show you how badly you're pulling off target when you pull the trigger. If your trigger fundamentals are bad the laser will show it. Your friend who thinks that putting a laser grip on his gun suddenly made him G2G is woefully unprepared.

BoringGuy45
09-27-13, 23:16
The first time I tried shooting with mine I was shocked at how much WORSE I shot with them than I do without them. They definitely require training/acclimation time to get used to them. However, they can be a valuable training tool all by themselves. When used for dry fire practice, a laser will show you how badly you're pulling off target when you pull the trigger. If your trigger fundamentals are bad the laser will show it. Your friend who thinks that putting a laser grip on his gun suddenly made him G2G is woefully unprepared.

Haha, that sounds like sooo many customers I had: "I don't have time to train, so I just need to be able to shoot without thinking." Can't tell you how many times I heard something like that!

Pi3
09-29-13, 12:56
They are wonderful in lowlight. But they washout and bright sunlight so you still have to use your iron sites. I would recommend night sites as well with tritium.

gtmtnbiker98
09-29-13, 13:31
They should be a requirement for J-frames.

C4IGrant
09-29-13, 13:45
They should be a requirement for J-frames.

Agree.

They are awesome (especially on the M&P).


C4

Abraham
09-29-13, 14:34
Could someone elaborate on the training with a CT laser?

I'm considering installing one on my Glock 19, but have zero experience with a laser.

Thanks!

philpac33
09-29-13, 18:18
If I'm seeing this correctly, a Gen3 G19 would use either the LG-619 or LG-417(red laser). Major differences between them are:
LG-619 rear activation, no on/off(always on)
LG-417 front strap activation, on/off button

I was just looking into these this morning for the G19 my wife prefers. The 417 is about $100 more than the 619 but not having on/off capability is a deal breaker.

SteveL
09-29-13, 19:27
Could someone elaborate on the training with a CT laser?

I'm considering installing one on my Glock 19, but have zero experience with a laser.

Thanks!

Basically you need to go out and shoot with them to acclimate yourself to them and get a feel for shooting the gun and executing a proper trigger pull while not indexing the gun's sights or holding it in a traditional shooting position. I don't imagine it sounds that hard, and it really isn't, but it is different than what you're probably used to.

oldtexan
09-29-13, 20:05
Could someone elaborate on the training with a CT laser?

I'm considering installing one on my Glock 19, but have zero experience with a laser.

Thanks!

I'll give you my experience, which may or may not be of value to anyone else.

One factor with a laser is getting used to shooting while focusing your attention and vision on the laser and its spot on the target, rather than focusing on the front sight. Another, related, is perhaps needing to shoot with the gun just below the eyeline (depending on how your laser is mounted, how you zero it, and your vision) in order to see the laser spot, as opposed to using the sights and consequently having the sights lined up nicely between you and the target. I've noticed that keeping both eyes open usually allows my weak eye to acquire the laser even if the sights are brought to eyeline. This may not work for everyone.

I've noticed that if there is sufficient light to see the sights well, using them is almost always faster than using the laser.

Lasers seem to be most useful against moving targets, and in situations where the light is neither bright nor pitch black and without much variation.

Another factor is that at least for me, red lasers (my only laser experiences have all been with various red Crimson Trace models and the Surefire X400, also a red laser) wash out so badly in any kind of bright light(daylight, presence of bright handheld lights, etc) as to be difficult and slow to spot, much slower than using the sights. A related factor is that if you are shooting under varying lighting conditions, you may find that you have to switch back and forth between using the sights versus using the laser, as the lighting changes. This takes practice under realistic conditions to be able to quickly make the right decision so as not to add too much time to your engagement sequence. Green lasers that are supposedly more visible in bright light than red lasers might fix this problem, possibly allowing laser engagements even under bright light, but I have no experience with green lasers yet so I can't offer an informed opinion on that.

Shooting with a weaponlight or handheld light favors the use of sights as opposed to a laser. The weaponlight (in my experience Surefire X200a, X200b, X300, and X400) or handheld light causes the laser spot to wash out enough to really slow down its use, but REALLY make the sights stand out very sharply silhouetted against the lit-up target.

beschatten
09-29-13, 20:07
Was wondering if any left handed shooters had experience with the CT grip lasers? Everytime I tried one out at a gun show or LGS I noticed my thumbs forward grip blocked the laser. Only thing I could think of was pointing my right thumb down. Or using a rail laser.

JSantoro
09-30-13, 10:27
Folks who lock on the fall of the dot itself have a good chance of seeing their wobble-zone....not increase....but become WAY more apparent compared to what it looks like with a front-sight focus. The laser isn't actually jitterbugging any more than a front sight is, but it is often perceived that way simply because it's a bright shiny thing for the eye to lock on, with. The angles that are generated by the natural wobble-zone that always exists, laser or no, are suddenly made visible and exaggerated by adding a stream of photons.

This exaggeration of the wobble-zone can result in the shooter trying to muscle up in an attempt to control it better, which makes it more likely for them to ambush the trigger when they see the dot drift onto/across what they're going for, and they mentally scream "NOW...!" in their head. This is what SteveL is likely speaking to (?).

Further exacerbated if one goes with one of those ridiculous strobing aim lasers; CT doesn't do those, so far as I know, but in terms of lasers in general, strobing is a fine feature for an illuminator laser, in IR, for signal/C&C purposes, but has no practical application on an aim. Having a dot that disappears in the midst of one's wobble, and reappear somewhere slightly else, 4 times a second or more....it's touted as eye-drawing, and it IS, but the amount of practice needed to resist that natural urge, compared to using a solid beam, is considerable.

Treat the laser like a red dot sight, focusing on the target and letting the dot float over it (the surface, not over it in the vertical sense). Gun/sights stay in your eyeline, so, roughly, all you're really doing is practicing shifting your focus from front sight to target and back, as the situation dictates. Somebody that's got time on a carbine with RDS and BUIS, and who's danced this dance with a reasonable level of dedication can identify with the concept; somebody who's half-assed it or is simply unfamiliar with such things will find it understandably far less seamless. See the target = you'll see where the dot is, anyway; put it where you want it, accept your wobble-zone, and press rounds.

At the power outputs for vis red lasers like these, a red is generally okay to about 25m in full-lit conditions (individual vision dependent; variable -- if the emitter is clean and well-maintained; variable (lint, for starters, presuming CCW...airborne particulates, too, for open carry) -- battery state; variable (with the batts these use, dot can dim as batts expend). Concerns with laser washout from sunlight/flashlights are absolutely valid, but usually very limited, and overstated due to the presence of one or more of the conditions just mentioned. That said, the way the market is going retarded on flashlight outputs, it's only gonna get MORE likely to wash out a laser. I don't see anybody upping laser power outputs in an effort to prevent that, because that'd up the hazard classification of any such device, make it a restricted item that the folks buying such lights openly wouldn't be able to procure. Lost sales.

Personally, I'll practice with the laser under lit conditions for the sake of practice alone, but have a hard mental lock on how my irons are my primary means except when they aren't visible to me for whatever reason....which admittedly might fly right out the window if some caustic moment jumps up, but at least if I've worked to be as good as possible on the tougher method, mentally crapping the bed and dumping to the easier, shinier one won't be the variable that gets me put to room-temp.

Giving away one's position -- I sorta get this one as being a viable concern....right up until I remember that SHOOTING also does this. LOTS of things can give away one's position, but precisely how many citizens are slotting bad guys from the kind of ambuscade where light discipline is a key factor to success...? I really think that that one doesn't get considered from the right angle, and just gets tossed about because somebody heard military guys chatting it up, and it sounds cool.

Side argument -- laser as intimidating/posturing tool; can work, sure, but it's not like a given in a geometry problem in school. It's a lot like the "just-rack-the-slide-on-the-pump-action-shotgun" form of posturing that some folks use as the pivot-point of their self-defense plan. It CAN work, but depends upon another person BEING intimidated, which smacks of hope = plan, to me. I prefer the more sure path, in which hitting them with a bullet, via use of an aiming system (like, say, a laser....), is also probably pretty damned intimidating. Besides which, it's possible to train to come off the laser actuator on a set of CTs, just as it is to do wo with the DG switch of a Surefire X-series light; not super-easy, but doable. Choice to be made as to whether or not it's worthwhile is left to the individual user.

Pistol lasers in general, CTs in particular, are an excellent tool for shooting around barricades. Shields, for cops; for earth folk, getting shoehorned somewhere where you can see around or over something but might have to poke the muzzle/emitter out somewhere else where you can't get behind sights. Pretty uncommon, but real.

Can be good for those with some form of degraded physical condition. For instance, someone with enough palsy in their hands to keep them from easily and reliably lining up sights may find a laser of enormous use. Had a wheelchair-bound student who (post-class, not during) was set upon by no-goodniks, got dumped on his side and his shooting arm pinned after drawing. He was still able to aim and shoot, despite this, and lived to later tell the tale.

Make a conscious effort to check zero at intervals. ALL pistol lasers have a fairly high level of incidence of drifting zeros. Kudos to those who's do not exhibit this, but it's still more likely than with just about any aim laser intended for rifles, so it's a good habit to acquire. Should be 25yd, to match just about every set of pistol irons out there, but if one decides to do so at anything less than 15yd, one probably needs to take a piss test.

Lefties will almost certainly have problems with a CT, for the reasons stated. All they can do is find a way to get their thumb(s) out of the way of the emitter; HOW they do that....I've yet to see it done with 100% success, but that only describes what I've been able to observe, so far, not that it's impossible.

Cylinder Head
09-30-13, 10:39
I have one on my M&P and it is very handy, as previously stated they do require additional training and you should never grow to rely on the dot.

Abraham
09-30-13, 13:58
Thanks all for your responses - very helpful!

HES
09-30-13, 22:29
Was wondering if any left handed shooters had experience with the CT grip lasers? Everytime I tried one out at a gun show or LGS I noticed my thumbs forward grip blocked the laser. Only thing I could think of was pointing my right thumb down. Or using a rail laser.
I had a set on one of my M&Ps. Like so many other things in life I had to learn to adapt to a tool made for a right handed person. It worked, but also got the snot knocked out of it. Fat chance of CT ever making a grip for a south paw.

SteveL
09-30-13, 22:33
This exaggeration of the wobble-zone can result in the shooter trying to muscle up in an attempt to control it better, which makes it more likely for them to ambush the trigger when they see the dot drift onto/across what they're going for, and they mentally scream "NOW...!" in their head. This is what SteveL is likely speaking to (?).

No, but you bring up an excellent point. I was actually thinking more of how a laser will show if you pull yourself off target in anticipation of recoil. Have someone load some dummy rounds in your magazine at random, load that magazine into your pistol and start shooting while using a laser sight. When you get to the dummy rounds and the gun goes click instead of bang, the laser will show how badly you're pulling off target in anticipation of recoil. This can serve as a training aid to help with trigger pull fundamentals.

Psalms144.1
10-01-13, 08:09
This exaggeration of the wobble-zone can result in the shooter trying to muscle up in an attempt to control it better, which makes it more likely for them to ambush the trigger when they see the dot drift onto/across what they're going for, and they mentally scream "NOW...!" in their head. This is what SteveL is likely speaking to (?).

Further exacerbated if one goes with one of those ridiculous strobing aim lasers...

Treat the laser like a red dot sight, focusing on the target and letting the dot float over it (the surface, not over it in the vertical sense). Gun/sights stay in your eyeline, so, roughly, all you're really doing is practicing shifting your focus from front sight to target and back, as the situation dictates...See the target = you'll see where the dot is, anyway; put it where you want it, accept your wobble-zone, and press rounds.

At the power outputs for vis red lasers like these, a red is generally okay to about 25m in full-lit conditions (individual vision dependent; variable -- if the emitter is clean and well-maintained; variable (lint, for starters, presuming CCW...airborne particulates, too, for open carry) -- battery state; variable (with the batts these use, dot can dim as batts expend). Concerns with laser washout from sunlight/flashlights are absolutely valid, but usually very limited, and overstated due to the presence of one or more of the conditions just mentioned.

Personally, I'll practice with the laser under lit conditions for the sake of practice alone, but have a hard mental lock on how my irons are my primary means except when they aren't visible to me for whatever reason....which admittedly might fly right out the window if some caustic moment jumps up, but at least if I've worked to be as good as possible on the tougher method, mentally crapping the bed and dumping to the easier, shinier one won't be the variable that gets me put to room-temp.

Giving away one's position -- I sorta get this one as being a viable concern....right up until I remember that SHOOTING also does this. LOTS of things can give away one's position, but precisely how many citizens are slotting bad guys from the kind of ambuscade where light discipline is a key factor to success...? I really think that that one doesn't get considered from the right angle, and just gets tossed about because somebody heard military guys chatting it up, and it sounds cool.

Side argument -- laser as intimidating/posturing tool; can work, sure, ... I prefer the more sure path, in which hitting them with a bullet, via use of an aiming system (like, say, a laser....), is also probably pretty damned intimidating.

Pistol lasers in general, CTs in particular, are an excellent tool for shooting around barricades.

Can be good for those with some form of degraded physical condition.

Make a conscious effort to check zero at intervals. ALL pistol lasers have a fairly high level of incidence of drifting zeros. Should be 25yd, to match just about every set of pistol irons out there, but if one decides to do so at anything less than 15yd, one probably needs to take a piss test.
JSantoro - thank you for potentially the most informative post about ANY shooting issue I've read on the internet in decades. EXCELLENT points, clearly stated.

I'm not a laser user myself - but, I was a VERY late adopter of RDS on my rifle (after multiple decades of iron sights only). If I wasn't working for no pay (THANKS MR. PRESIDENT AND BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS!) your treatise might make me pick one up, just to see if the juice is worth the squeeze.

If I still carried one of my little wheelguns, I can't imagine NOT taking advantage of the CT grips for them...

Regards,

Kevin

JSantoro
10-01-13, 10:21
No, but you bring up excellent point.

Gotcha. I see now what I'd missed when initially reading through yours.

Thanks for the reminder of the specific usefulness of these as a training aid.....I've a particular private student that has a significant flinch AND loooong fingers. We're in the process of getting her to a certain level of ability shooting, before she goes to select her own, so she's shooting my M&Ps. Intellectually, she knows she has a flinch, but I think the addition of the CT during cap-and-ball will help her know it in her gut (when she sees the downrange results for herself), and the fact that the thing's basically a modified LG backstrap might just help her hands fit on the gun much better than with the MD backstrap I utilize.

I'd let the lazer slip my head, entirely....

Which brings up another point: grip-mounted lazerz will alter one's otherwise-established grip in some fashion (not just southpaws) that can't be specifically defined on the simple basis of how everybody's hands are different. I know it did mine, so it's worth bearing in mind.

The aspects regarding light that texan brought up: do not fall for anybody telling you that a laser will allow you to identify targets, conduct a search or anything other than aiming. I've heard that put forward as a capability, and it's unfortunately illegal for us to channel out inner Ultimate Warrior and hit those folks with a folding metal chair. If one envisions needing a laser for limited-visibility shooting, NOT envisioning the need for training with a light is a logic gap big enough through which to drive a truck . Sideways.

Ick
10-01-13, 11:04
During a discussion I had four years ago with a state policeman he said that he believes in one incident his CT provided an intimidation factor that was very useful.

He stated that the perp's "Hollywood" understanding of the laser sight was the reason for the intimidation.

RogerinTPA
10-01-13, 11:17
I've had a CT on my M&P9c and have been training with it for years. It is the cat's ass for the M&P series.

JSantoro
10-01-13, 12:19
He stated that the perp's "Hollywood" understanding of the laser sight was the reason for the intimidation.

To expand on this:

You/he are both correct; it's not to be utterly discounted by any means, but it needs to be pointed out that those situations depend upon the knowledge (or lack of it) of another person with their own decision-making process (flawed or otherwise), and their state of mind.

During OIF1, we used to scare away the TCNs from our crappers with Wal-Mart handheld laser pointers because they'd squat over the seat and sandblast everything with poo. Since they'd seen every bootlegged right-wing action flick ever made, they figured that red dot had something more serious following it. SUCCESS *fist-bump*

It's not arguing with results to say that there's absolutely no skin lost if one attempts to employ an aim-laser that way and takes complete advantage of it when it works, but counting on it depends upon the actions of another taking the path one is hoping they'll take. The capability is definintely there, but talking about compliance/intimidation with a laser should be couched in terms of encouraging folks to have some BPTs (Be Prepared To) in mind if it doesn't work out that way.

We've all encountered some aspect of the "I've never seen it NOT work..." folks. (EDIT: Ick, please don't take that as me implying that you or the statie you spoke to are That Guy. We've just all met That guy, somewhere along the way... ;) ) Any analogue of that is semantically correct, completely factual. They have never seen/heard of a laser failing to have that effect.... BUT, since it doesn't require them seeing it for it to have happened, and any refusal to think beyond that can bite pretty hard.

Consider it from this angle: Laws can and do force compliance...and also fail to; otherwise, we'd not need LE the way we do.

If one chooses to utilize a laser for the possible intimidation aspect, rock on. You're already using it for aiming/acquiring, so if things go pear-shaped because intimidation is a no-go, one has hopefully tried to intimidate by aiming at baddie's juicy bits so one can take the next logical step at need.

Ick
10-02-13, 11:02
Well said. I always assumed he was telling me some good insight, glad to hear that can be confirmed... yet not always counted on in actual situations.

Pi3
10-02-13, 16:37
When keeping the finger out of the trigger guard, I had to learn to extend my trigger finger straight out instead of touching the side of the frame. If I touch the frame, it blocks the laser.

ArRazorback
10-02-13, 18:50
They should be a requirement for J-frames.

I remember seeing a signature line on here saying that CT grips are to J-frames are like ABS to modern cars.

SteveL
10-02-13, 21:04
When keeping the finger out of the trigger guard, I had to learn to extend my trigger finger straight out instead of touching the side of the frame. If I touch the frame, it blocks the laser.

Same here, although I usually use my finger to block the laser intentionally until I'm moving the gun on target.

Fail-Safe
10-03-13, 20:19
I had a set on one of my M&Ps. Like so many other things in life I had to learn to adapt to a tool made for a right handed person. It worked, but also got the snot knocked out of it. Fat chance of CT ever making a grip for a south paw.

If enough people pre pay, which means talk with their wallet, not their mouth, they might.

Until then, not a chance.


I can use them OK on a revolver, but not a semi auto.

I'd love to have them on my M&Ps though

Whytep38
10-03-13, 20:46
I used to be sold on tritium sights rather than lasers due the old argument that laser batteries could fail when you need them the most, but tritium keeps on glowing.

Then I got a pistol for my wife that has a laser on it. I found it much more user friendly than the tritium sights. And I decided that if I changed the battery on a schedule, I probably won't have it fail me.

So now I'm sold on lasers.

One other thing: I found using the laser during dry fire practice helps me learn better trigger control. I get instant feedback when the dot wobbles around. It picks up small errors much better than my eyes on the sight do. So I use it for that. And just in case the battery or the laser itself does die, I still practice without it.

packinaglock
10-04-13, 18:01
I'm really starting to try and adopt the laser sights. As I get older (51 now) when I go to the range if I wear my readers the sights are clear but the target is blurry. If I don't the target is clear but my sights are blurry as hell. I'm at 175 strength readers now and I'm sure it's all down hill from here. Getting old sucks!!!

HES
10-05-13, 10:31
If enough people pre pay, which means talk with their wallet, not their mouth, they might.

Until then, not a chance.


I can use them OK on a revolver, but not a semi auto.

I'd love to have them on my M&Ps though

For pre-orders to work CT would have to at least be open to the idea.