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View Full Version : Big Bore Carry...Moving to 45ACP



Unkle Kurt
10-14-13, 23:41
I am moving to 45 ACP for carry. I know that with "modern hollowpoints the margin between 9mm and 45ACP is null" and "9mm is cheaper to practice with". Now I cannot argue with the fact that 9mm is king with capacity, but to stock up on good 9mm hollowpoints its going to cost some serious coin. 1000 rounds of 9mm hollowpoint will cost about double what 45 FMJ 230gr ball will cost. I have been carrying a G19 Gen4 and am looking for something comparable in size.

My initial considerations are the G30S, M&P45c, and commander 1911 al la Ruger SR1911c.

I am open to other considerations under $750.

Please advise.

FWIW, I am not selling my 9's just yet.

theblackknight
10-15-13, 00:48
1000 rounds of 9mm hollowpoint will cost about double what 45 FMJ 230gr ball will cost.

I'm really confused as why you are considering your switch reason as comparing JHP in one caliber to FMJ in another.

pingdork
10-15-13, 01:09
This logic confuddles me as well. Availability of 9mm has been a concern, but not so much as of late.

montrala
10-15-13, 04:38
I'm really confused as why you are considering your switch reason as comparing JHP in one caliber to FMJ in another.

Probably OP believes than .45 FMJ is better defensive round than good 9mm JHP and that is why OP compares their respective cost.

walkin' trails
10-15-13, 06:56
There's nothing wrong with a 45 ACP pistol for carry, and you would be well served with either a G30s or an M&P 45. On the other hand, a lot of good pistol shooters are realizing they're faster and sometimes mire accurate with the 9mm. Like the other posters, I don't see why you are comparing the cost of 9mm defensive ammo to 45 ball. A comparison with 45 ACP would show that good 45 defensive ammo costs more than 9mm. Ballistically 45 ball might punch a little bigger hole in the target than 9mm ball, but neither work as well as modern hollow points. While it makes some sense to have a pistol or two of another caliber to rely on when we encounter times where it's hard to get decent rounds in the caliber you normally rely on, I would not carry ball ammo for defensive purposes unless all things have completely broken down and that's all that is left. Then, IMO, one would want the pistol they could shoot quickest and most accurately to maximize the effectiveness if an inferior (for defensive purposes) bullet design, e.g. FMJ.

Arik
10-15-13, 07:12
The M&P45c will probably be closest in size and thickness. S&W website shows their width at 1.2 without the safety

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk now Free ('http://tapatalk.com/m?id=10')

Five_Point_Five_Six
10-15-13, 07:16
1000 rounds of 9mm hollowpoint will cost about double what 45 FMJ 230gr ball will cost.

Please Dear God, in the name of all that is holy and righteous, tell me that you're not considering carrying or using FMJ's for defensive purposes?

KiloSierra
10-15-13, 07:40
Just an observation on my part but .380 ball, 9mm ball and .45 ball all tend to work about the same in actual shooting where I work. Marginal hits equals marginal results. Good hits equals good results. I'll take a good 9mm JHP over .45 ball or a good .45 JHP over 9mm ball any day of the week.

Unkle Kurt
10-15-13, 08:47
I can see why my OP was confusing. Let me clarify that I am not comparing the ballistics of the 9mm HP to 45 ACP FMJ.

The reason for my consideration is from a cost standpoint when buying bulk ammo. Sure, generally 9mm is less expensive than 45 as the last 1000 round pack of 9mm FMJ I picked up was just under $300. Now the same brand of 45ACP FMJ was slightly over $400 for 1000 rounds.

The reason I am making my consideration is that for 9mm to close the gap on 45ACP with performance it has to be in HP. The cheapest HP ammo that I would be willing to trust my life with runs about $25-$30 for a box of only 20-25 rounds and to acquire the same 1000 rounds will cost over $1000; more than double the cost of standard 45 FMJ that of which "modern 9mm HP's are designed to close the performance gap with".

Additionally, if the 9mm HP fails to expand for some reason you basically have a FMJ that just cost you three to four times what a 9mm FMJ will cost. At least with 45 FMJ you already have a larger projectile at half the cost that you do not have to worry about not expanding.

CAVDOC
10-15-13, 08:57
All the compiled stats show there is no gap between 9mm hp and 45 ball except that generally 9mm hp performs BETTER than 45 ball in close to every instance. Hard data rather than old Jeff Cooper anecdotes ( no offense to Col Cooper) proves hardball in every caliber including 45 sucks for on target incapacitation capability

Jerik1m4
10-15-13, 09:11
I can see why my OP was confusing. Let me clarify that I am not comparing the ballistics of the 9mm HP to 45 ACP FMJ.

The reason for my consideration is from a cost standpoint when buying bulk ammo. Sure, generally 9mm is less expensive than 45 as the last 1000 round pack of 9mm FMJ I picked up was just under $300. Now the same brand of 45ACP FMJ was slightly over $400 for 1000 rounds.

The reason I am making my consideration is that for 9mm to close the gap on 45ACP with performance it has to be in HP. The cheapest HP ammo that I would be willing to trust my life with runs about $25-$30 for a box of only 20-25 rounds and to acquire the same 1000 rounds will cost over $1000; more than double the cost of standard 45 FMJ that of which "modern 9mm HP's are designed to close the performance gap with".

Additionally, if the 9mm HP fails to expand for some reason you basically have a FMJ that just cost you three to four times what a 9mm FMJ will cost. At least with 45 FMJ you already have a larger projectile at half the cost that you do not have to worry about not expanding.


If I may interject something

http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/50-rd-box-45-auto-federal-hst-230-grain-hp-hollow-point-le-ammo-p45hst2

not quite as cheap as target but not far from it for what 45 is starting to run nowadays. I made the move to carry a Springfield MC Operator and this is what I carry, I work for a shop and I don't buy that 20rd box stuff as long as this is available. I would consult DOC's list for duty loads and buy some online. Also to mirror those above PLEASE GOD do not carry FMJ for defense......

C4IGrant
10-15-13, 09:17
I can see why my OP was confusing. Let me clarify that I am not comparing the ballistics of the 9mm HP to 45 ACP FMJ.

The reason for my consideration is from a cost standpoint when buying bulk ammo. Sure, generally 9mm is less expensive than 45 as the last 1000 round pack of 9mm FMJ I picked up was just under $300. Now the same brand of 45ACP FMJ was slightly over $400 for 1000 rounds.

The reason I am making my consideration is that for 9mm to close the gap on 45ACP with performance it has to be in HP. The cheapest HP ammo that I would be willing to trust my life with runs about $25-$30 for a box of only 20-25 rounds and to acquire the same 1000 rounds will cost over $1000; more than double the cost of standard 45 FMJ that of which "modern 9mm HP's are designed to close the performance gap with".

Additionally, if the 9mm HP fails to expand for some reason you basically have a FMJ that just cost you three to four times what a 9mm FMJ will cost. At least with 45 FMJ you already have a larger projectile at half the cost that you do not have to worry about not expanding.

Might want to reconsider. Magtech has a new bonded 9mm load out in 147gr and 124. It is about $20 per box and is very good.


C4

PD Sgt.
10-15-13, 09:28
OP, I would strongly recommend whatever caliber you settle on, carry hollow point ammunition for defensive purposes.

Without getting into a caliber debate, no matter what size bullet you are sending downrange, if you are shooting people once, you will probably need to shoot them again, and quickly. The 9mm will generally allow you to be back on target quicker, and allow faster, accurate follow on shots.

Now of the pistols you were considering in .45, my recommendation would be the M&P 45c. It does give up a couple rounds to the G30, but (for me at least) the grip is long enough that I do not need a magazine extension to get all four fingers on the pistol. It is slimmer, and conceals better (again, for me). I can carry 10 round mags for spares, which helps close the gap between capacity with the Glock.

Psalms144.1
10-15-13, 10:02
Uncle Kurt - I'm still a little confused, and I'm certainly not a ballistics expert, but hopefully DocGKR will be along shortly...

Having said that, my personal experience having studied shootings in LE and MIL circles for several decades now seems to show that ALL FMJ simply sucks. I think you're making a HUGE and incorrect leap to assume that .45 ACP FMJ is "equivalent" to a decent 9mm JHP.

Now, if you just want a .45 - hells yes! go for it! But, if you're doing this in order to improve your SD capabilities, I think you're deluding yourself.

Ballistics aside, for size-equivalency with the G19, you've got the G30S, which will be very close except for grip width, and the M&P45c. The HK45c is also size equivalent, but I doubt you'll find one in your price range. You might also find a decent used compact 1911 in your price range - maybe a Springfield Lightweight Champion or Champion Operator.

Regards,

Kevin

yoni
10-15-13, 11:42
I have carried both and shot people with both.

I saw no difference. Good hits, gave good results. Bad hit, gave bad results.

Carry 9 mm and move ahead. Lower recoil, more rounds.

Itzik
10-15-13, 11:56
I say shoot the Glock 30S and then shoot the M&P and see which one you shoot better.

The 30S has the advantage of carrying 10+1 and you can use Glock 21 mag's with +2 bases for a 15 round back up mag.

If you are used to the Glock and looking for something in the Glock 19 size the 30S is the closest you can come as the 30S will fit by loosening the tension screw if you have a Kydex holster in the G19 holster and probably fit in most leather 19 holsters.

I just sold my G30S and bought a Walther PPQ M2 because the price of training ammo for 45 is too high and does not seem like it will come down anytime soon.

If you can afford the cost of 45 go for it, but if it will cut on your training because of cost then don't, also never compare for any reason JHP's to FMJ in a self defense situation and never carry FMJ but I am sure that is not your intention as probably you could afford 100 rounds of JHP's for carry purposes.

Caduceus
10-15-13, 12:12
Uncle Kurt - I'm still a little confused, and I'm certainly not a ballistics expert, but hopefully DocGKR will be along shortly...

Having said that, my personal experience having studied shootings in LE and MIL circles for several decades now seems to show that ALL FMJ simply sucks. I think you're making a HUGE and incorrect leap to assume that .45 ACP FMJ is "equivalent" to a decent 9mm JHP.

Now, if you just want a .45 - hells yes! go for it! But, if you're doing this in order to improve your SD capabilities, I think you're deluding yourself.

Ballistics aside, for size-equivalency with the G19, you've got the G30S, which will be very close except for grip width, and the M&P45c. The HK45c is also size equivalent, but I doubt you'll find one in your price range. You might also find a decent used compact 1911 in your price range - maybe a Springfield Lightweight Champion or Champion Operator.

Regards,

Kevin
If I may, I think what he's saying is that they leave approximately equal size holes. 9mm hollow point typically expands a bit, right? Looking at some of the Ammo Oracle threads, the round tested got to .62 inches.

Whereas .45 FMJ won't shrink.

OP, correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying you'd rather take a consistent .45 inch hole versus a hole .62 inches in diameter that has a chance of failing to open that big?

Striker
10-15-13, 12:33
I am moving to 45 ACP for carry. I know that with "modern hollowpoints the margin between 9mm and 45ACP is null" and "9mm is cheaper to practice with". Now I cannot argue with the fact that 9mm is king with capacity, but to stock up on good 9mm hollowpoints its going to cost some serious coin. 1000 rounds of 9mm hollowpoint will cost about double what 45 FMJ 230gr ball will cost. I have been carrying a G19 Gen4 and am looking for something comparable in size.

My initial considerations are the G30S, M&P45c, and commander 1911 al la Ruger SR1911c.

I am open to other considerations under $750.

Please advise.

FWIW, I am not selling my 9's just yet.

I think I understand your point. You believe .45 FMJ is adequate for defensive purposes, whereas 9mm isn't; you want to stock 1000 plus rounds of your defense ammo for some reason and you think the .45 FMJ is the best compromise when you consider everything including price.

Assuming I'm correct; first, I don't know anyone that would choose FMJ ammo if given the choice of HPs. I've heard of people stacking for penetration reasons, but I don't know or have heard of anyone choosing FMJ exclusively as a choice. I know many SMEs have said IF they're stuck with FMJ ammo, they would rather shoot .45 or .40. I'm assuming because of the bigger slug and since none will expand bigger will hopefully be at least marginally better. Having said that, may I also point out that if you had to, in an emergency situation, you could use 9mm FMJ for defensive purposes. It may not be an optimum choice, but it's usable.

If you are an effective shooter with a .45, I would say shoot them all and decide what works best for you. If you're not, I'm not sure it's a wise decision.

To me there is no gun or caliber that is perfect. If you're more comfortable with .45 or .40 and you can shoot it, great. I'm not sure I would make the jump simply for economic reasons though. It's the same argument as "I don't want to carry my SACS Pro because I don't want it to get confiscated if I need to use it" My personal opinion is that my life is worth more than a few dollars.

Just my opinion.

scoutchris
10-15-13, 13:20
Goddamn this is an asinine thread. Use the search button. On any website. Or search engine.

WickedWillis
10-15-13, 13:26
I think I understand your point. You believe .45 FMJ is adequate for defensive purposes, whereas 9mm isn't; you want to stock 1000 plus rounds of your defense ammo for some reason and you think the .45 FMJ is the best compromise when you consider everything including price.

Assuming I'm correct; first, I don't know anyone that would choose FMJ ammo if given the choice of HPs. I've heard of people stacking for penetration reasons, but I don't know or have heard of anyone choosing FMJ exclusively as a choice. I know many SMEs have said IF they're stuck with FMJ ammo, they would rather shoot .45 or .40. I'm assuming because of the bigger slug and since none will expand bigger will hopefully be at least marginally better. Having said that, may I also point out that if you had to, in an emergency situation, you could use 9mm FMJ for defensive purposes. It may not be an optimum choice, but it's usable.

If you are an effective shooter with a .45, I would say shoot them all and decide what works best for you. If you're not, I'm not sure it's a wise decision.

To me there is no gun or caliber that is perfect. If you're more comfortable with .45 or .40 and you can shoot it, great. I'm not sure I would make the jump simply for economic reasons though. It's the same argument as "I don't want to carry my SACS Pro because I don't want it to get confiscated if I need to use it" My personal opinion is that my life is worth more than a few dollars.

Just my opinion.


This sums up extremely well the point that I was going to make. If you are hell-bent that you need that big-bore, 230 gr slug than have at it if you are effective with it. Also, if you like the 30s, maybe you should wait until the Gen 4 30s is released (it seems inevitable with how successful the Gen 3 has been.)

Coal Dragger
10-15-13, 14:00
As others have stated I am not sure why 9mm JHP is being compared to .45 FMJ. I like .45's (and big bore handguns in general), but if the choice were between 9mm JHP's and .45 FMJ against predators of the two legged variety I'm going to pick 9mm JHP's every time. Not even sure why the OP is looking at this choice through the prism he has chosen of comparing apples to oranges.

I will admit that I would pick the .45 ACP over the 9mm for my own use since I have always shot .45 ACP better overall than 9mm for some reason (admittedly could be due to more accurate easier to shoot platforms like the 1911). I have always liked the .45 ACP with 200-230gr bullets, and at least in the two that I own point of aim and point of impact with different loads doesn't change much at all with any .45 ACP ammo in that range of bullet weights. Can't say the same for the 9mm's I have shot, since the point of aim point of impact seemed to vary a lot more with differing bullet weights and velocities. So if your goal is to have practice ammo that shoots to the same point of aim as your defensive ammo, with pretty much the same recoil characteristics then I would bet on 230gr .45 ACP FMJ's and JHP's being the better bet.

I am also biased towards .45 ACP since I reload for it already, and have a Dillon Square Deal B set up exclusively for .45 ACP along with large quantities of brass and bullets. So my cost to shoot .45 ACP is quite a bit lower than I could buy 9mm for, or even reload for given the need to acquire enough brass to make it practical.

Itzik
10-15-13, 14:16
As others have stated I am not sure why 9mm JHP is being compared to .45 FMJ. I like .45's (and big bore handguns in general), but if the choice were between 9mm JHP's and .45 FMJ against predators of the two legged variety I'm going to pick 9mm JHP's every time. Not even sure why the OP is looking at this choice through the prism he has chosen of comparing apples to oranges.

I will admit that I would pick the .45 ACP over the 9mm for my own use since I have always shot .45 ACP better overall than 9mm for some reason (admittedly could be due to more accurate easier to shoot platforms like the 1911). I have always liked the .45 ACP with 200-230gr bullets, and at least in the two that I own point of aim and point of impact with different loads doesn't change much at all with any .45 ACP ammo in that range of bullet weights. Can't say the same for the 9mm's I have shot, since the point of aim point of impact seemed to vary a lot more with differing bullet weights and velocities. So if your goal is to have practice ammo that shoots to the same point of aim as your defensive ammo, with pretty much the same recoil characteristics then I would bet on 230gr .45 ACP FMJ's and JHP's being the better bet.

I am also biased towards .45 ACP since I reload for it already, and have a Dillon Square Deal B set up exclusively for .45 ACP along with large quantities of brass and bullets. So my cost to shoot .45 ACP is quite a bit lower than I could buy 9mm for, or even reload for given the need to acquire enough brass to make it practical.

This makes absolute sense to me my preference is and always was the 230 grain bullet in a 45 ACP and having a reloader set up for 45 and long time experience with 45 there is no argument to your choice.:)

yoni
10-15-13, 14:24
All handguns suck, they don't have any real so called stopping power when you look at the power of a rifle or even better hitting a guy with a car.

In my life I have seen little difference if any between 9mm and .45acp, as a result my carry guns for people are all 9mm.

Coal Dragger
10-15-13, 14:38
By the same token if I were starting out and was picking out my first centerfire semi-automatic pistol I don't know what I would do. The modern 9mm makes a compelling case for itself from an availability and cost standpoint once performance is figured in versus other choices.

The thing is I'm not just starting out, and I already have established some preferences for the uses that I am most likely to have for a pistol or revolver. I'll probably end up picking up a 9mm (probably HK since I regret letting go of one in the past) for the wife to start her centerfire handgun shooting off with something that is gentle on recoil. As for me, I'll probably stick with the .45 ACP. I have a SIG P229 in .357 SIG with the DAK trigger (horrible trigger), and it hasn't grown on me so I'll trade it off on a HK45, or another good 1911 first chance I get.

Coal Dragger
10-15-13, 14:45
All handguns suck, they don't have any real so called stopping power when you look at the power of a rifle or even better hitting a guy with a car.

In my life I have seen little difference if any between 9mm and .45acp, as a result my carry guns for people are all 9mm.

Not all handguns suck in that regard. Just the ones that most people would actually bother to carry.

For example I have a .454 Casull revolver that has a lot more "stopping power" than a .223/5.56mm carbine will ever have, but like the carbine, carrying around a 6" bbl large frame revolver is not practical for most of us. Never mind the fact that over penetration and violent recoil would also tend to preclude such a beast from EDC for two legged predators.

Itzik
10-15-13, 14:50
I agree with Yoni on everything he said all handguns suck but it is better to have them then not to have them and my choice is 9mm with modern rounds of today as you can't carry a rifle everywhere.

All I was saying if a person is into the 45 and is vested heavily in it with guns, equipment, reloader and training and wants to stay with it, it's fine and he doesn't need to change.

Coal Dragger in the Sig line I like the DA/SA 229 with the short reset and short reach trigger. My 229 Extreme Elite was my favorite gun before I bought a Walther PPQ M2 that gave me as good a trigger as the SA trigger of the Sig with less carry weight.
My Sig is a keeper and if the Walther one day fails for some reason it will be back to my Sig or my Glock 19 or 26.

theblackknight
10-15-13, 15:28
Uncle Kurt - I'm still a little confused, and I'm certainly not a ballistics expert, but hopefully DocGKR will be along shortly...


LOL nope.



BTW OP, just find a normal g30 if you are into that. The 30S really isn't that different and they are hard to find because "ermagerd, its a new glerk!".



sent from mah gun,using my sights

mkmckinley
10-15-13, 16:03
Most people carry hollowpoints and practice with cheap FMJ. Im not sure how many defensive situations you plan on getting into but you don't need to buy 2000 defensive rounds. A couple boxes should do you for awhile. Speaking of which how much is the lawyer fee/property damage/manslaughter case going to cost you if that .45 ACP goes through your target and hits something/someone you don't want it to? Carry hollowpoints. Also most people wouldn't advise a cheap 1911 for concealed carry.

Averageman
10-15-13, 18:25
I've gone back and forth with this for years.
I started carrying a 1911 in the 70's when working the night shift at a local filling station, carried one all through a 20+ year career in the military, except for the last couple of years when we recieved our Beretta's.
I feel comfortable with my G17's, 26 or my 1911 and H&K USPC. Some just conceal a bit better with whatever I'm wearing at the time.
I don't feel under gunned carrying any of them with JHP ammo and quality magazines.
It's kind of odd though that Mr Johnston who first taught me to shoot his 1911, wouldn't shoot anything but military ball. I would suppose that might be due to dealing with people who were for the most part inside a vehicle.

Kain
10-15-13, 18:40
Am going to chime in since I was considering going to .45ACP as my go to caliber away from 9mm about 6-8 months back because I was having such a hard time finding 9mm to train with. Online I could find the 9mm JHP that I wanted, indeed I ended up with 500 round of Winchester Ranger 147gr bonded FBI overrun at just under $18 a box of 50 shipped that I threatened to use as range fodder if I could not find ball, and then picked up 500 rounds of Ranger T 147gr JHP for a bit more than $30 a box for oh shit situations. Could not find 9mm FMJ, and what I could find locally was $35+ a box:eek: and there are some places that still want that. I could still find .45ACP JHP for less than $40 for JHP and sub $30 for FMJ. Prices have since dropped some, but if not for the close to 2K of 9mm JHP I had to less than 200 I had in .45ACP I may have been going full on .45ACP. Am not saying that you need 2K plus of JHP , just how things have fallen for me over the years, and I did end up selling a good amount, though I did also end up trading into more recently so maybe I should stop looking at 9mm JHP. As it is ammo prices still suck, and I wish they were less and availability was better. If you want to go to .45 over 9mm, not going to argue it, still find that shot placement trumps round choice in anything, but at any rate I understand at least from a cost perspective, where the OP may be coming from.

Itzik
10-15-13, 18:44
It's kind of odd though that Mr Johnston who first taught me to shoot his 1911, wouldn't shoot anything but military ball. I would suppose that might be due to dealing with people who were for the most part inside a vehicle.

It could very well be because the old 1911's did not feed HP's or at least some of them unless they had work done on them. I shot 1911's for many years while competing in IPSC and USPSA and most of them took a good investment to make them reliable and I am not talking about tricking them just reliability.

yoni
10-15-13, 18:59
Not all handguns suck in that regard. Just the ones that most people would actually bother to carry.

For example I have a .454 Casull revolver that has a lot more "stopping power" than a .223/5.56mm carbine will ever have, but like the carbine, carrying around a 6" bbl large frame revolver is not practical for most of us. Never mind the fact that over penetration and violent recoil would also tend to preclude such a beast from EDC for two legged predators.


I stand corrected.

You are correct, not all handguns really suck. But all handguns we can carry every day suck.

Itzik
10-15-13, 19:08
I stand corrected.

You are correct, not all handguns really suck. But all handguns we can carry every day suck.

It would suck more if you did not have a handgun when you needed one also bad shot placement with a rifle does not trump good shot placement with a handgun.;)

JusticeM4
10-15-13, 20:12
Kurt, what does your stock of 9mm ammo look like now (round count)?

I would suggest continuing to use 9mm if you already have a decent stash of that. Buy FMJ in bulk for practice, and buy 100-200rds of HP when funds allow.

45ACP is great, but really if are already stocked on 9mm and practice consistenly with your G19, I don't see the reason to upgrade from a cost perspective. Like they say, Shot placement is King.

Now if you just really want a 45 to add to your arsenal, I suggest the Glock30S.

Father of 3
10-15-13, 22:43
I am one of the few that can kinda see where you are trying to go with this from an economic standpoint for stocking up. But as you stated you haven't sold off your 9mm.

I would suggest taking the $750 you were planning on spending on another handgun and buying a few hundred rounds of good quality 9mm HP and spend the rest on FMJ or invest in training.

Just my opinion.

theblackknight
10-15-13, 23:10
Now if you just really want a 45 to add to your arsenal, I suggest the Glock30S.

why the 30S?

Coal Dragger
10-16-13, 00:09
I stand corrected.

You are correct, not all handguns really suck. But all handguns we can carry every day suck.

Not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out that there are in fact some very powerful handguns out there and they have their place. If you are venturing into the back country where concealment is a non issue but large animals of the biting, scratching, stomping, goring variety are; then a big bore magnum revolver makes a hell of a lot more sense than a 9mm or pretty much any other common autoloading pistol calibers.

I bought mine for hunting primarily and it wears a Trijicon RMR on top and has proven to be very very accurate, plus with a 240gr bullet moving along at 1900fps a 50 yard zero results in point of impact being about 2" low at 100 yards. Hell the dot on the RMR is 3.25-4 MOA, so the round will still theoretically land in the "dot" at 100 yards. With frequent practice it's like having a carbine you can put in a holster. As an added bonus since it has a .452' barrel (I slugged it to verify this) I was able to have Freedom Arms make a spare cylinder in .45 ACP for cheap practice that is less abusive. I have also experimented with hot rodding .45 ACP brass to .460 Rowland level power in this cylinder with great success. The only downside to this is JHP's made for .45 ACP don't hold up very well when you drive them to 1200-1500fps. Controlled expansion my ass....

Itzik
10-16-13, 00:44
Not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out that there are in fact some very powerful handguns out there and they have their place. If you are venturing into the back country where concealment is a non issue but large animals of the biting, scratching, stomping, goring variety are; then a big bore magnum revolver makes a hell of a lot more sense than a 9mm or pretty much any other common autoloading pistol calibers.

I bought mine for hunting primarily and it wears a Trijicon RMR on top and has proven to be very very accurate, plus with a 240gr bullet moving along at 1900fps a 50 yard zero results in point of impact being about 2" low at 100 yards. Hell the dot on the RMR is 3.25-4 MOA, so the round will still theoretically land in the "dot" at 100 yards. With frequent practice it's like having a carbine you can put in a holster. As an added bonus since it has a .452' barrel (I slugged it to verify this) I was able to have Freedom Arms make a spare cylinder in .45 ACP for cheap practice that is less abusive. I have also experimented with hot rodding .45 ACP brass to .460 Rowland level power in this cylinder with great success. The only downside to this is JHP's made for .45 ACP don't hold up very well when you drive them to 1200-1500fps. Controlled expansion my ass....

I fully agree with your premise and intended use of heavy calibers which I would and I did carry when I was in a place like that. but we are talking two legged predators here and it is different.

TehLlama
10-16-13, 00:55
I have a pair of very very nice looking, quite expensive, and extremely good concealing 1911's.
I CCW either an M&P Shield or M&P FS in 9mm with 147gr JHP (Gold Dot and RangerT mostly).

In my opinion, the reason to carry a .45 is if you want a 1911 trigger, and since that format runs best in 5"/.45ACP, that's why I have those. I'd like to try a flat spring Wilson 4.25" pistol, but that's the extent of what I'd run in .45 if theirs a narrower option that holds more rounds because it's in 9mm. Barring consideration of four-legged stuff in the >500lb class, placement and capacity still are worth more to me - and the ability to practice for cheaper, since I know my pistol skill is the weak link in that equation.

Coal Dragger
10-16-13, 01:56
I fully agree with your premise and intended use of heavy calibers which I would and I did carry when I was in a place like that. but we are talking two legged predators here and it is different.

No argument there. A 9mm with modern jacketed hollow points is more than adequate where a handgun is concerned for self defense or duty sidearm use.

I happen to like .45 ACP better, but not really due to some huge performance advantage that the .45 ACP has over the 9mm. There probably is a performance advantage for the .45 ACP when comparing the two given equal rates of expansion using a quality bullet that will provide an appropriate level of penetration. Of course the shot placement must be equal with the target having an exactly equal ability to withstand trauma and a bunch of other variables that really can't be controlled.

In the real world those variables are just that, variables and you can't control them. Stats bear that out, with there being no significant advantage or disadvantage on target with either round given the most effective load for each caliber.

It might make an interesting experiment on live targets culling feral hogs to see how well the .45 ACP and 9mm (or other common pistol rounds for self defense) do on hogs. If a guy who could shoot consistently and get clean hits on a hog were to shoot 50 hogs with each caliber and take notes on effectiveness it might be interesting. Of course we'd probably learn that an angry hog full of adrenaline is a tough customer to kill, and most common pistol rounds are not really all that great at cleanly taking game/vermin. Still be interesting. Anyone in Texas want to give it a go?

Itzik
10-16-13, 10:04
If I was going after hog's with a handgun it would be a 10mm, if a revolver it would be a 357 Mag minimum or I want a tree stand I can shoot from, but I agree this would be a good experiment.

I also think that the 45 might have a slight advantage but the 9mm would have a big advantage in capacity.

Also if you carry all day long it is easier to carry a 9mm with two spare mag's with a total capacity of 46 to 52 rounds like in any Hi Cap 9mm and two spare mag's then a 45 with 37 rounds like in a Glock 21 + 2 spare mag's specially if your back is hurting.

If I could carry only 10 rounds in a gun and only 10 round mag's as backup I would carry a 45 ACP.

The Bulldawg
10-16-13, 10:56
Do what you feel comfortable with. I have a Glock 30s and a Glock 19. I just like them and train with both. I have to say I shoot the 30s better for whatever reason and it is slightly smaller than the 19. I am in Texas and .45 ammo is everywhere not so much with the 9mm. Plus they limit how many boxes of 9mm I can buy at time. There are plenty of dead people under ground from .45 ball ammo.

Itzik
10-16-13, 11:34
Do what you feel comfortable with. I have a Glock 30s and a Glock 19. I just like them and train with both. I have to say I shoot the 30s better for whatever reason and it is slightly smaller than the 19. I am in Texas and .45 ammo is everywhere not so much with the 9mm. Plus they limit how many boxes of 9mm I can buy at time. There are plenty of dead people under ground from .45 ball ammo.

Bear in mind that I like the 45 also but there are more dead people underground from 9mm ball but that is not a rationale I would use in my choice of defensive ammo.;)

I just sold my Glock 30S because you guys in Texas have not left any 45 ammo for us.:haha:

Coal Dragger
10-16-13, 12:44
If I was going after hog's with a handgun it would be a 10mm, if a revolver it would be a 357 Mag minimum or I want a tree stand I can shoot from, but I agree this would be a good experiment.

I also think that the 45 might have a slight advantage but the 9mm would have a big advantage in capacity.

Also if you carry all day long it is easier to carry a 9mm with two spare mag's with a total capacity of 46 to 52 rounds like in any Hi Cap 9mm and two spare mag's then a 45 with 37 rounds like in a Glock 21 + 2 spare mag's specially if your back is hurting.

If I could carry only 10 rounds in a gun and only 10 round mag's as backup I would carry a 45 ACP.

In my experience with hunting, most animals don't stick around for the hunter to take more than one or two shots. Usually only one, and then they turn into a top fuel dragster and are freaking gone before you can attempt much more than one more hasty shot at them on the run. There are exceptions of course, last time I was deer hunting the wind was blowing hard enough into my face that I don't think the deer could place the shot very well and they didn't all bolt at the first shot after my doe crumpled up. Otherwise one shot is about all you get, so it better count.

Honestly where pigs are concerned they get big enough and have enough natural "armor" that both the .45 ACP and 9mm would probably have a really tough time getting to vitals from anything but a perfect angle. They'll still die, but making them stop or fold up quickly will be tough. I'd say a guy should go out and shoot a bunch of deer for a better test with more relevance to defense against people since deer are closer to the same weight as a human. Sadly most game and fish departments would call that poaching...

As for the capacity advantage for CCW or duty belt carry, yes you can carry more 9mm rounds given the same weight limit. No argument there. I would make the observation though that even if armed with a 1911 and packing 25 rounds (three 8 rounds magazines, plus one in the chamber), that if you can't solve your problem with 25 rounds or even the first 9 rounds then your problem is very likely going to solve you.

Itzik
10-16-13, 12:59
Coal Dragger I have no argument with you and I agree with you on all your points as I have hunted for over 20 years (not any more) and you are right, one shot and they are gone or they are down. Although I have seen crippled ducks and geese sail a few hundred yards before falling and floating, they are hardier then most animals.

My thinking comes from a scenario that is different then what we were all used to and I am sure Yoni is thinking exactly like me. It is not one or two shooters anymore that we could take care of with less ammo but we are thinking that in an active shooter's situation like the mall attack in Kenya if G-D forbid it happens here you might need all the ammo you can have and if I can have for the same weight 46 to 55 rounds of 9mm instead of 25 to 40 of 45 I will feel better.

Two legged animals have a way of avoiding getting shot and even when shot take a lot of punishment before going down and can also unlike a deer cause a lot of harm to people around them.

WickedWillis
10-16-13, 13:00
I'd say a guy should go out and shoot a bunch of deer for a better test with more relevance to defense against people since deer are closer to the same weight as a human.Sadly most game and fish departments would call that poaching...


Rightfully so.

Coal Dragger
10-16-13, 13:17
Rightfully so.

But, but, but it's all in the name of science!

Yeah, shooting a bunch of deer for no good reason other than testing ammo would be a true waste. Around my part of the country we have had some pretty bad years for deer populations, between disease, drought, and predation (f*cking mountain lions...) the deer have taken a beating. Drawing tags has been pretty tough the last few years, and I don't have much tolerance for poaching either.

Itzik
10-16-13, 13:21
But, but, but it's all in the name of science!

Yeah, shooting a bunch of deer for no good reason other than testing ammo would be a true waste. Around my part of the country we have had some pretty bad years for deer populations, between disease, drought, and predation (f*cking mountain lions...) the deer have taken a beating. Drawing tags has been pretty tough the last few years, and I don't have much tolerance for poaching either.

Shoot some Mountain Lions help the deer population.:laugh:

Coal Dragger
10-16-13, 13:23
Coal Dragger I have no argument with you and I agree with you on all your points as I have hunted for over 20 years (not any more) and you are right, one shot and they are gone or they are down. Although I have seen crippled ducks and geese sail a few hundred yards before falling and floating, they are hardier then most animals.

My thinking comes from a scenario that is different then what we were all used to and I am sure Yoni is thinking exactly like me. It is not one or two shooters anymore that we could take care of with less ammo but we are thinking that in an active shooter's situation like the mall attack in Kenya if G-D forbid it happens here you might need all the ammo you can have and if I can have for the same weight 46 to 55 rounds of 9mm instead of 25 to 40 of 45 I will feel better.

Two legged animals have a way of avoiding getting shot and even when shot take a lot of punishment before going down and can also unlike a deer cause a lot of harm to people around them.

In that situation as a CCW I'm going to be using my ammo to break contact and escape if possible, getting into protracted gun fight with multiple rifle armed opponents using a handgun is a bad bad idea in my book. Sorry if that sounds selfish, but my safety and the safety of my family are my priority in that kind of situation. Living to fight another day is more realistic than taking out the threat in those circumstances.

WickedWillis
10-16-13, 13:29
Shoot some Mountain Lions help the deer population.:laugh:

Wolves devastate them far more than mountain kitties.

WickedWillis
10-16-13, 13:30
But, but, but it's all in the name of science!

Yeah, shooting a bunch of deer for no good reason other than testing ammo would be a true waste. Around my part of the country we have had some pretty bad years for deer populations, between disease, drought, and predation (f*cking mountain lions...) the deer have taken a beating. Drawing tags has been pretty tough the last few years, and I don't have much tolerance for poaching either.

Ah it's all good man, I took it in a sarcastic tone.

Coal Dragger
10-16-13, 13:34
Shoot some Mountain Lions help the deer population.:laugh:

I get tags for mountain cats every year! They're cagey buggers though, and in most areas of the Black Hills we are not allowed to use hounds. So you get to try to ambush an ambush predator, usually by calling them in.

Sounds easy enough, but their ranges are so large that unlike calling a coyote you never even know if the cat is around. Plus they seem more cautious about coming into a call. The range issue is a tough one, and we are heavily dependent on fresh snowfall to establish a fresh track to follow and start calling. The last few winters haven't given us good snow in the southern Black Hills, and very few cats have been taken down here compared to the northern Black Hills which get more snow more often. Either way it is a great reason to get out in the woods in January-March and try bag a cat.

Coal Dragger
10-16-13, 13:38
Wolves devastate them far more than mountain kitties.

Yeah, I've read that is the case. We have an over abundance of mountain lions in the Black Hills though, last year they allowed for 100 of them to be shot. That is a lot of damn mountain lions.

One of my coworkers who lives up in Custer, SD shot a wolf a year or two ago. Genetics came back that it was from the great lakes area, it was in with his cows and was introduced to a .243 Winchester. We also have some out by Jewel Cave National Monument that came down from Montana around Broadus. Of course SD Game Fish and Parks refuse to acknowledge the presence of a newly establishing large predator in the area.

Salamander
10-20-13, 19:44
If I was going after hog's with a handgun it would be a 10mm, if a revolver it would be a 357 Mag minimum or I want a tree stand I can shoot from, but I agree this would be a good experiment.

I also think that the 45 might have a slight advantage but the 9mm would have a big advantage in capacity.

Also if you carry all day long it is easier to carry a 9mm with two spare mag's with a total capacity of 46 to 52 rounds like in any Hi Cap 9mm and two spare mag's then a 45 with 37 rounds like in a Glock 21 + 2 spare mag's specially if your back is hurting.

If I could carry only 10 rounds in a gun and only 10 round mag's as backup I would carry a 45 ACP.

This neatly sums up our situation in California.

If I lived in a free state, I'd carry a high capacity 9mm. Here, I alternate between 9mm and 45 acp depending on the situation. Either way, it's with quality JHP ammo.

jmk
10-20-13, 23:07
Shoot some Mountain Lions help the deer population.:laugh:

i bet cars kill more deer than mountain lions, especially back east.

we've got plenty of lions out here in CO, but you can barely shake a stick and not hit a deer!

jmk
10-20-13, 23:44
I am moving to 45 ACP for carry. I know that with "modern hollowpoints the margin between 9mm and 45ACP is null" and "9mm is cheaper to practice with". Now I cannot argue with the fact that 9mm is king with capacity, but to stock up on good 9mm hollowpoints its going to cost some serious coin. 1000 rounds of 9mm hollowpoint will cost about double what 45 FMJ 230gr ball will cost. I have been carrying a G19 Gen4 and am looking for something comparable in size.

"they all fall to hardball"?
"good enough for Moros, good enough for me"?
FMJ reliability, esp in a wide bullet like 45?
"if i shoot 9mm i have to shoot JHP for consistency, so if 45 FMJ is good enough for SD i can shoot 2x as much and be consistently more effective"?
that's somewhat of a bullseye shooters mentality, which is not what SD is about.

if you're looking for a modern pistol, why do you want turn of the millenium bullets?

i think this only makes (a little) sense if you are legislatively limited in capacity AND are somehow only physically capable of shooting exactly one type of bullet with "combat effectiveness."

i think you're underselling yourself - take the $750 and go to a few classes with your glock.

all that aside, the springfield armory xds is another pistol to consider (now available in both calibers!)

exkc135driver
10-21-13, 01:05
Not to hijack this thread, but when considering the cost of practice/training ammo, don't any of y'all reload? (Yes, I am painfully aware that bullet prices are high compared to a few years ago, but I can still reload for way less than I can purchase an equivalent amount of new ammo for.)

Coal Dragger
10-21-13, 01:11
Not to hijack this thread, but when considering the cost of practice/training ammo, don't any of y'all reload? (Yes, I am painfully aware that bullet prices are high compared to a few years ago, but I can still reload for way less than I can purchase an equivalent amount of new ammo for.)

Hells yes I reload. That is one reason that I have stuck with .45ACP, I have been reloading for it for well over a decade now and have a progressive press (Dillon) set up for it. Plus I just like .45ACP, since for some reason I just shoot it better than 9mm.

Abraham
10-21-13, 12:56
For what it's worth, recoil recovery of a 9mm vs a .45 is significant.

You'll get back on target faster with a 9mm which increases your effectiveness with follow up shots.

Stay with the 9mm.

Itzik
10-21-13, 20:10
For what it's worth, recoil recovery of a 9mm vs a .45 is significant.

You'll get back on target faster with a 9mm which increases your effectiveness with follow up shots.

Stay with the 9mm.

The weight of the gun and if the ammo is +P or +P+ might make a difference though. I have shot 40+ ounce 1911's that were much softer shooting then some compact polymer gun with +p or +P+ 9mm and definitely a 40 Caliber.

But carrying a 40 + ounce gun is not of interest to me or my aging back any more, the one exception is the Glock 21 that is a really soft shooter but too big for my taste and need's. That is why I have switched completely to the 9mm.

svtpwnz
10-22-13, 10:58
My suggestion would be to take the $750 you are going to spend on a new pistol and buy a reloading press, dies, powder, manual, tumbler, media, scale, brass, bullets, primers etc and just start reloading. Yes, you have an initial upfront investment but it will more than pay for itself in short time and cut your ammo cost by 50% plus.

Talon167
10-22-13, 11:10
My initial considerations are the G30S, M&P45c, and commander 1911 al la Ruger SR1911c.

I am open to other considerations under $750.

Please advise.
.

To get back on topic I think either of those is a good choice, though I'd learn more towards the G30. It holds two more rounds than the M&P and shoots the 45 really well.

Other than those, I'd take a look at an HK USPc 45.

WickedWillis
10-22-13, 11:57
The G30S is great and carries a tad heavier than the G19. It's also very accurate, and surprisingly soft shooting. For that price range it is your best bet. Also, if you do come up with a tad more to spend the HK USP 45 Compact, or the HK45 compact are some of the best .45's out there in any size. Only a couple hundred Benjamin's more. You should also try and go rent and put some rounds downrange before you commit to a buy.

Striker
10-22-13, 12:25
If I could carry only 10 rounds in a gun and only 10 round mag's as backup I would carry a 45 ACP.

Yeah as long as you can shoot a .45 proficiently. Honestly, everything is secondary to what can you shoot proficiently and what the situation allows. Those two things should dictate what gun and caliber you carry. I think both .40 and .45 have an incremental advantage over 9mm, but if 9mm is the largest gun you can shoot proficiently, it doesn't matter if it's ten round mags or 30 round mags; 9mm should be the choice you make. And most people that I've seen don't shoot .40 or .45 very well. Not because they couldn't, but because they don't put enough rounds down range to learn to handle the additional recoil and or they choose a gun that's really two small for the larger calibers. IMO, despite all the talk of first shot speed and accuracy, if you can't get shots 2 and beyond off with a certain amount of speed and accuracy, shot 1 won't matter at all.