View Full Version : Single stage Aftermarket vs. tweaked Mil-Spec triggers
Radioflyer
10-16-13, 20:51
I currently have a CMMG 2-stage trigger on my Carbine, but I find myself doing more shoot-and-move training than static long-distance shooting. I really like the timney trigger i felt at a gun store, but I also shot a friend's AR with a tuned mil-spec trigger.
I'm curious if there's anything about the timney mechanics wise that sets it apart from a trigger job on the mil-spec one I already have.
Any advice is appreciated.
In general, "tuned milspec" triggers are a fallacy.
I currently have a CMMG 2-stage trigger on my Carbine, but I find myself doing more shoot-and-move training than static long-distance shooting. I really like the timney trigger i felt at a gun store, but I also shot a friend's AR with a tuned mil-spec trigger.
I'm curious if there's anything about the timney mechanics wise that sets it apart from a trigger job on the mil-spec one I already have.
Any advice is appreciated.
"tuned" mil-spec triggers can be unreliable and sometimes dangerous (read run away gun) depending on how the job was done. It sounds like you are looking for a single stage but you might give Geissele a look. Their triggers are fantastic. I have a couple of SD3G triggers and I will never use another trigger again (even though they are expensive as hell lol)
texasgunhand
10-17-13, 00:33
"Tuned" milspec always scares me also. And its easy to mess them up real fast..
Like everyone else said, I wouldn't go for tweaked mil spec. Once it's tweaked it ain't mil spec anymore.
If it's reliability you want, i hear great stuff about:
Wilson Combat
Geissele (used by some in the military, so it's pretty proven)
ALG (Geissele offshoot)
IMO, its hard to beat an ALG QMS trigger. Both in value and performance.
When somebody "tunes" a stock trigger, it makes me cringe.
IMO, its hard to beat an ALG QMS trigger. Both in value and performance.
When somebody "tunes" a stock trigger, it makes me cringe.
How does an ALG compare to an actual Geissele though?
I currently have a CMMG 2-stage trigger on my Carbine, but I find myself doing more shoot-and-move training than static long-distance shooting. I really like the timney trigger i felt at a gun store, but I also shot a friend's AR with a tuned mil-spec trigger.
I'm curious if there's anything about the timney mechanics wise that sets it apart from a trigger job on the mil-spec one I already have.
Any advice is appreciated.
Wait, I am confused. So I cannot use a 2 stage trigger for shooting on the move training?? Well crap, that means that I am going to have to sell all my Geissele triggers.
Honestly speaking, super light single stage triggers are for varmint hunting, target shooting and gun games. I would never put one in a defensive gun or a training gun. Reason? Way too light and prone to going FA. If you are dead set on one, look at Wilson Combat's triggers. I have heard lots of good things about them and they have ones that are up in the weight thresholds.
Modifying a GI trigger is a mistake. If you shoot it enough, you will eventually run into a problem (as you removed the case hardening).
So for me (and many of the HSLD trigger pullers in the Military), do yourself a favor and buy a Geissele trigger.
C4
How does an ALG compare to an actual Geissele though?
No. One is a 2 stage and the other is a single stage (GI).
While good for what they are, they are NOT a Geissele trigger.
C4
Honestly speaking, super light single stage triggers are for varmint hunting, target shooting and gun games. I would never put one in a defensive gun or a training gun. Reason? Way too light and prone to going FA. If you are dead set on one, look at Wilson Combat's triggers. I have heard lots of good things about them and they have ones that are up in the weight thresholds.
Modifying a GI trigger is a mistake. If you shoot it enough, you will eventually run into a problem (as you removed the case hardening).
So for me (and many of the HSLD trigger pullers in the Military), do yourself a favor and buy a Geissele trigger.
C4
I agree with this 100%. I used to use JP single stage triggers but ran into some "problems" with them. Also, Geissele's 2 stage triggers are so smooth they are often times faster to use and have a cleaner break than any single stage I've ever used.
No. One is a 2 stage and the other is a single stage (GI).
While good for what they are, they are NOT a Geissele trigger.
C4
Ok, I always wondered about ALG. So they are single stage triggers then?
I agree with this 100%. I used to use JP single stage triggers but ran into some "problems" with them. Also, Geissele's 2 stage triggers are so smooth they are often times faster to use and have a cleaner break than any single stage I've ever used.
Ok, I always wondered about ALG. So they are single stage triggers then?
ALG triggers are USGI. They have been slightly modified and or coated to give them are more consistent/smoother trigger pull weight.
C4
ALG triggers are USGI. They have been slightly modified and or coated to give them are more consistent/smoother trigger pull weight.
C4
Ok, that is interesting... so there are service members using single stage triggers? Or is that just the nomenclature "Single Stage GI"? When I was in ours were all two stage with a pretty stout pull (I wanna say probably between 5-7lbs.)
It didn't matter much as 11B's during the 2000's though, we almost exclusively did MOUT anyway so we weren't taking many long shots and weren't educated on the platform enough to take advantage of a 250 dollar trigger.
Ok, that is interesting... so there are service members using single stage triggers? Or is that just the nomenclature "Single Stage GI"? When I was in ours were all two stage with a pretty stout pull (I wanna say probably between 5-7lbs.)
It didn't matter much as 11B's during the 2000's though, we almost exclusively did MOUT anyway so we weren't taking many long shots and weren't educated on the platform enough to take advantage of a 250 dollar trigger.
The overwhelming majority use single stage triggers.
The overwhelming majority use single stage triggers.
I was completely not aware of that... maybe two stage triggers are reserved for combat arms occupations then. Every unit I was in all used two stage triggers. That is even what we were TRAINED to shoot on. That is really interesting, I never realized that the components of the rifle itself were different depending on your occupation. I mean, granted we had M-4s, PEQ-2's, EOTechs and ACOGs, etc... while the support units had M16A2s with iron sights but I didn't realize even the trigger was different.
I was completely not aware of that... maybe two stage triggers are reserved for combat arms occupations then. Every unit I was in all used two stage triggers. That is even what we were TRAINED to shoot on. That is really interesting, I never realized that the components of the rifle itself were different depending on your occupation. I mean, granted we had M-4s, PEQ-2's, EOTechs and ACOGs, etc... while the support units had M16A2s with iron sights but I didn't realize even the trigger was different.
It shouldn't have been different. My brother is an armorer in the 82d and all their triggers are single stage GI triggers.
It shouldn't have been different. My brother is an armorer in the 82d and all their triggers are single stage GI triggers.
I've been out completely for 5 years now. Perhaps they switched?
The only reason I remember was because it was ingrained in us when learning shooting fundamentals that you gently squeeze through the first stage and then you will have a clean break after that as you go through the second stage.
In basic we have M16A4s and it is also what we had at first when I got to my first unit and those were made by FN. Maybe the Colt M-4s we got later were single stage and I just never noticed... that would not surprise me. They really don't teach line infantry guys a whole lot about the weapon. I understand why but I don't agree with the logic.
sandsunsurf
10-17-13, 09:48
It's a single stage trigger that has a shit ton of creep and slack that you're pulling through to get to the break point. Hmmm, kind of like a Glock.
I've been out completely for 5 years now. Perhaps they switched?
The only reason I remember was because it was ingrained in us when learning shooting fundamentals that you gently squeeze through the first stage and then you will have a clean break after that as you go through the second stage.
In basic we have M16A4s and it is also what we had at first when I got to my first unit and those were made by FN. Maybe the Colt M-4s we got later were single stage and I just never noticed... that would not surprise me. They really don't teach line infantry guys a whole lot about the weapon. I understand why but I don't agree with the logic.
I ran around with a FN M16A2 for a couple weeks, it definitely had a single stage trigger. All the Colt M4s I've seen in the USAF and the few I've personally seen in the army were single stage.
Your PMI may have confused the slack in many GI triggers as a "first stage".
I ran around with a FN M16A2 for a couple weeks, it definitely had a single stage trigger. All the Colt M4s I've seen in the USAF and the few I've personally seen in the army were single stage.
Your PMI may have confused the slack in many GI triggers as a "first stage".
lol that would NOT surprise me at all. :D
I'd like to hear though if anyone else who has used an A4 knows though. I've never used an A2, maybe A4s were the one variation the military used that had two stage??
The only decent single stage AR trigger that I have ran was a Timney, and I think I heard that there have been problems with that captive FCG design.
I agree with everyone else. The geissele triggers are the best, and even if you prefer single stage triggers you won't have an issue with the geissele's.
If you are stuck on a single stage trigger, I'd suggest the Timney.
K.L. Davis
10-17-13, 09:57
My favorite trigger for about anything but dedicated precision work is a quality "milspec" trigger with a plating to reduce friction and improve the feel - it is still a long, seven pound pull, but it is consistent and smooth through the entire pull.
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=687&pictureid=3427
ALG triggers are USGI. They have been slightly modified and or coated to give them are more consistent/smoother trigger pull weight.
C4
Can standard AR triggers, whether generic or ALG, really be considered USGI as they are semi-auto only?
Two Stage or Single Stage? I don't know about true USGI (burst or full auto) but the standard AR trigger has quite a bit of travel (what is often called "pre-travel") before the sear breaks, same amount as the two stage G- trigger. The difference (in feel, not geometry) is that the pull weight is the same all the way through to sear release. With the G- trigger, the first stage of travel is much lighter.
In studying the two stage trigger of the Garand/M14, you'll see that the first stage is really a long sear engagement. Once it hits a certain point, the weight increases suddenly just before the sear releases. I believe the G- trigger works the same way.
The 3 gun trigger (I believe it's called) has the same pull as the standard AR trigger but at a reduced pull weight and is very smooth. A single continuous pull weight until the sear breaks.
In one point of view, the standard AR trigger and the 3 gun trigger can be defined and two stage triggers with the same pull through it's travel. However, I'm of the mind that since the second stage of a two stage trigger is defined by it's sudden increase in weight just before the sear release, that having a pull that's the same weight throughout the travel effectively means it's a single stage pull
I was completely not aware of that... maybe two stage triggers are reserved for combat arms occupations then. Every unit I was in all used two stage triggers. That is even what we were TRAINED to shoot on. That is really interesting, I never realized that the components of the rifle itself were different depending on your occupation. I mean, granted we had M-4s, PEQ-2's, EOTechs and ACOGs, etc... while the support units had M16A2s with iron sights but I didn't realize even the trigger was different.
All M4's and M16's have a USGI FCG in it. This is a single stage trigger that commonly feels like a two stage because it CAN suck (long pull, gritty feel with creep).
Only guns like USA DMR are going to see GOOD triggers like the Geissele in the Military.
C4
texasgunhand
10-17-13, 11:48
What kind of coatings are they using?? teflon or such? Iam so used to crappy triggers i just learned to work around them..lol
Can standard AR triggers, whether generic or ALG, really be considered USGI as they are semi-auto only?
Two Stage or Single Stage? I don't know about true USGI (burst or full auto) but the standard AR trigger has quite a bit of travel (what is often called "pre-travel") before the sear breaks, same amount as the two stage G- trigger. The difference (in feel, not geometry) is that the pull weight is the same all the way through to sear release. With the G- trigger, the first stage of travel is much lighter.
In studying the two stage trigger of the Garand/M14, you'll see that the first stage is really a long sear engagement. Once it hits a certain point, the weight increases suddenly just before the sear releases. I believe the G- trigger works the same way.
The 3 gun trigger (I believe it's called) has the same pull as the standard AR trigger but at a reduced pull weight and is very smooth. A single continuous pull weight until the sear breaks.
In one point of view, the standard AR trigger and the 3 gun trigger can be defined and two stage triggers with the same pull through it's travel. However, I'm of the mind that since the second stage of a two stage trigger is defined by it's sudden increase in weight just before the sear release, that having a pull that's the same weight throughout the travel effectively means it's a single stage pull
I think they half to be as they do not fit into any other catagory.
Triggers like the Timney single stage, have a consistent pull weight through its SHORT length.
Standard SA triggers (like the in the Colt 6920) are also single stage, but have a longer pull, different pull weights (6-8lbs) and have creep (typically).
Triggers like the Geissele SSA have a 2.5LBS first pull weight, then a wall and then a 2LBS pull weight breaking the "glass rod."
USGI triggers do not have that clean break like a true 2 stage does. They tend to creep as they are pulled and I think that makes people think that they are a 2 stage (when they actually are not).
C4
What kind of coatings are they using?? teflon or such? Iam so used to crappy triggers i just learned to work around them..lol
Which triggers? ALG? One is standard USGI and the other one has Nickel Boron coating.
C4
halfmoonclip
10-17-13, 18:36
I have read (on various forums) that 'company funds' can be used to acquire improved trigger parts for the company's guns.
How this might work (or even if it is true) is less than clear to me, but it has been cited numerous time, usually in conjunction with the full auto version of the Geissele SSA.
Moon
The Godevil
10-17-13, 20:06
If you like the design and the reliability of the single stage mil-spec trigger; try an ALG ACT.
Coal Dragger
10-18-13, 04:08
If the OP really wants a single stage trigger he might look into a Geissele Super Dynamic 3 Gun. I have one in a Colt M4A1 (6920), and it is pretty close to a single stage trigger. There is actually no real wall or breaking point on the thing, you simply pull the trigger it feels like a tiny amount of slack is taking up and it breaks. A little different to get used to but it is very smooth, and the trigger travel is pretty short. Also I'll note that the reset on the trigger is very very short, and very positive.
Mine came with two trigger springs, one 3.5lb and one 4.5lb. The 3.5lb spring makes for a really nice light pull for whacking vermin and targets, but I would put the 4.5lb in for any kind of duty use.
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