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F.C.III
10-20-13, 14:41
Guys, would you consider an HK P7M8 a viable carry option in this day and time. I love the feel but 8rds of 9mm vs. The P30's 15rd. No longer made so parts avail.? Anyone know app. Service life of weapon? Any certain yrs. of manufacture to look for?
Thanks for any help you all can provide

Army Chief
10-20-13, 15:06
Solid gun. Admittedly-heavy and, as you've observed, limited capacity, but in terms of compactness, quality, accuracy, a usable trigger and speed-to-employ, I would still say "yes" -- absolutely a viable gun. Even nearly 40 years after it's introduction, it still offers some interesting capabilities that other guns simply do not.

Any P7 represents something of a strongly-flavored and unusual choice these days, given all else that is available, and you need to be careful about investing in the right carry rig because of the weight distribution (short slide, butt-heavy), but again, I wouldn't dismiss the idea out of hand.

After owning virtually every M-variant made, I actually came to prefer the original P7 (what is usually called the PSP in the US market) over time, and although mine no longer sees much first-line/carry service these days, it remains a quiet favorite.

Lots to like about these old staple guns, even today. Parts when needed, can be obtained, but there generally isn't a lot to worry about there, as these are extremely high-quality pistols.

Ultimately, if you are confident in, and competent with, the P7, then there is no wrong answer to the EDC question. "Having a gun" in the first place is really the only relevant factor there. Do your part, and it will perform every bit as well as, or better than, any other.

AC

Don Robison
10-20-13, 15:31
Like AC said; yes. I still carry my original type P7 on occasion when I want a slim gun.

yoni
10-20-13, 16:17
Yes, it is a great little pistol, I drop mine in my pocket several times a week, to run to put in gas or buy groceries.

I think the PSP with one spare mag, can solve 99.99% of the problems you have a chance of running into.

I have over 50 year olds eyes so the sights are hard for me to see, I wish I could get better sights on it. If it had better sights I would carry it more often.

Itzik
10-20-13, 16:41
I don't like the squeeze cocking but when it is cocked it is a great trigger, just remember to hang on to the grip as you might find it really hard to fire following shots if you don't keep the squeeze. It definitely requires different training.

Also don't touch the slide after you fire 100 to 150 shots and better clean the gun after every shooting session.

I would never spend the kind of money people are willing to for the P7, I rather have the Glock 26, M&P C or the Shield over the P7 any day.

Also I am not too crazy about any other HK as I don't like the trigger, or the price of any HK. I would take a Walther, Glock, Sig, M&P, even XD over the HK. For that matter the HK in all its variations and models is a gun that I never bought or owned.

Sorry guys it is just me.

Army Chief
10-20-13, 17:08
I don't like the squeeze cocking but when it is cocked it is a great trigger, just remember to hang on to the grip as you might find it really hard to fire following shots if you don't keep the squeeze. It definitely requires different training.

Also don't touch the slide after you fire 100 to 150 shots and better clean the gun after every shooting session.

I would never spend the kind of money people are willing to for the P7, I rather have the Glock 26, M&P C or the Shield over the P7 any day.

Also I am not too crazy about any other HK as I don't like the trigger, or the price of any HK. I would take a Walther, Glock, Sig, M&P, even XD over the HK. For that matter the HK in all its variations and models is a gun that I never bought or owned.

Sorry guys it is just me.

I don't want to be dismissive here, but all of this is pretty anecdotal at best, brother.

The squeeze-cocking procedure is absolutely intuitive to the point where even the newest shooter can easily master it, and the pressure required to keep the cocking mechanism cammed and engaged under recoil is insignificant, assuming a normal and natural firing grip. It requires no special effort; you simply have to hold on to the gun.

For carry purposes, the whole "hot gun" (people love this one, for some reason) issue is irrelevant. We aren't talking about extended range sessions. We're talking about having a sidearm available to deal with an active threat in the real world. I don't know anyone who carries 100-150 rounds of ammo to the corner store at 10 p.m. A pistol and a spare magazine are plenty.

Value is relative. P7s are expensive. They are also very high-grade steel, built to what are probably true semi-custom quality standards and they are German. A great many of them (ex-Polizei guns) were actually sold in our market for prices that were well under their true value.

Again, not blasting your face off here, but honestly, if you don't own one, then I'm not sure what motivated the comments. If you do, then I'm left to wonder where any of the aforementioned conclusions came from.

No one is saying the P7 is the ne plus ultra example of anything in 2013, but for a mid-70s vintage design, it remains startlingly-viable as an effective CCW tool today.

AC

yoni
10-20-13, 17:19
Ike you asked in an other thread our top 5 favorite pistols.

PSP is number 3 and I see nothing that will knock it out of third place.

PatrioticDisorder
10-20-13, 17:46
My two cents, I wouldn't run one for the simple fact that parts availability will always be limited. To me the P7 series represents a collectors piece, albeit a collector's piece capable of uber accuracy & reliability. I'd rather have a pristine P7 as a safe queen than a high end 1911 as a safe queen for what it's worth but because it's not currently being produced I wouldn't carry it (or shoot it very often).

Itzik
10-20-13, 17:48
Army Chief the fact that I don't own one does not mean I have not shot one extensively. This are strictly my feelings about the gun. I like to put 100 to 200 rounds in a shooting session and I would not do it with a P7.

I am also familiar enough with what happens in gun fights and I agree with you and Yoni, probably what is in the gun and a spare mag should be enough and the gun will not get hot enough to melt your Kydex holster but it still remains a fact that the gun is very expensive like all HK's are, carries a limited amount of ammo considering other guns like the Glock 26, XD C, M&P C and I still don't like the squeeze cocking specially for some one with a injured hand, arthritis, or old age but thank G-D I don't have that problem yet.

Also I know that Yoni likes as many rounds as possible in his gun and spare mag so I know that the limited capacity of the HK P7 is not an issue with me but not with him, occasionally might be Ok but he likes high capacity guns.

Also there are other guns like the ones I mentioned with more capacity, lighter, smaller that are much better in my humble opinion but that is strictly my opinion.

I did not mean to gore some ones sacred cow when I said I don't like HK's in general and the P7 in particular, to each his own this are strictly my feelings.

Itzik
10-20-13, 17:51
Ike you asked in an other thread our top 5 favorite pistols.

PSP is number 3 and I see nothing that will knock it out of third place.

I respect that, but it would be my last choice, then again I can shoot most guns really well and ammo capacity was never an issue with me anyway but I would still not buy one.

Army Chief
10-20-13, 18:00
Check www.hkparts.net, guys. Anything likely to go down on a P7 can be pretty-easily found there. Not sure where we've gotten the idea that parts are a significant show-stopper here any more than they would be for any other gun.


I did not mean to gore some ones sacred cow when I said I don't like HK's in general and the P7 in particular, to each his own this are strictly my feelings.

No harm, no foul. No sacred cows here, ether. I'm not a P7 apologist, and don't feel that the gun needs one. Just trying to address some of the stuff that may qualify more as hyperbole than fact. Dissenting views are always fine by me, as long as they are based upon something substantive.

It's far worse than you think, anyway. I carry a 1911. ;)

AC

Itzik
10-20-13, 18:09
Check www.hkparts.net, guys. Anything likely to go down on a P7 can be pretty-easily found there. Not sure where we've gotten the idea that parts are a significant show-stopper here any more than they would be for any other gun.



No harm, no foul. No sacred cows here, ether. I'm not a P7 apologist, and don't feel that the gun needs one. Just trying to address some of the stuff that may qualify more as hyperbole than fact. Dissenting views are always fine by me, as long as they are based upon something substantive.

It's far worse than you think, anyway. I carry a 1911. ;)


I carried 1911's for many years specially when I used to compete with one in IPSC and NWPPA, love the 1911 and will always have a soft spot for it. I still salivate and get all excited when I see a really well built one and I also know that most people that carry a 1911 and shoot it well really shoot it well if you know what I mean.;) But certain things I experienced with 1911's stop me from going back to one and I don't want to get into that discussion either.:no:

The Dumb Gun Collector
10-20-13, 18:57
Fantastic pistol. Frankly, other than being heavy, it is equal or better than any other compact 9mm available now. The truly great thing about the P7 is how it can be taken from absolutely safe (not "Safe Action," marketing safe, actually totally dead trigger safe) to single action shoot out their eyes ready in an instant. An amazing piece of engineering. It is too bad HK went broke and the brits made them start churning out plastic SIGs.

F.C.III
10-20-13, 19:25
AC thanks for the info. As with anyone else here I prefer well placed rds. on target over capacity any day. My primary EDC for the past 3 yrs. has been an HK P30S. Not going to completely switch from this.
I carried 1911's exclusively before my switch to the P30S. Switching from the 1911 to the S model left me in a position of similar muscle memory dealing w/ the thumb safety.
I have always loved the feel and the way the P7's shoot. I have the opportunity to snag one at a decent price in great condition. I don't want a NIB gun cause the price on a new one is nuts and I plan on shooting and carrying this gun. Saying this I know I will have to retrain myself to a degree. going to a gun w/ no thumb safety and the unique cocking method. The latter being of little concern to me. The slim design and great triggers they offer plus their notoriety for accuracy is what is appealing to me.
Always great to get someone else's opinion on a purchase like this and I have always had great respect for the info I have acquired on M4C.

PatrioticDisorder
10-20-13, 19:35
Check www.hkparts.net, guys. Anything likely to go down on a P7 can be pretty-easily found there. Not sure where we've gotten the idea that parts are a significant show-stopper here any more than they would be for any other gun.

Is H&K currently producing parts for the P7? You've now peeked my interest.

Itzik
10-20-13, 19:51
Maybe I need to shoot the P7 again which I have not in many years, if I do I might like it but it still would not become one of my first five choices.

But I respect those that do like it and hopefully shoot it really well.

YVK
10-20-13, 20:06
I consider any gun that doesn't support appropriate practice to be nonviable for a primary carry gun. I don't know what's your practice routine, but my is such that the gun was unusable from heat in about 50 rounds. You need a second (or third) P7, or good thermo-isolation gloves.
I had my P7 for about 7 years, put over 10,000 rounds through it, sold it and do not miss it a bit.

Army Chief
10-20-13, 20:24
Is H&K currently producing parts for the P7? You've now peeked my interest.

I honestly can't address that with any surety, though I would consider the fact that this is not a rare or unusual gun. Given that was a widely-used service sidearm throughout Germany, a gun sold commercially worldwide for decades, and a gun that is still represented in good numbers here at home, I would expect factory spares to be available for some time.

HK still services them as far as I know, and should the original parts train ever dry up, my sense is that there would be more than enough market motivation to kick a third-party vendor or two into action for any commonly-needed components. In reality, though, aside from the occasional spring or the odd crack in a firing pin bushing, not much fails on these guns, despite the fact that they seem to have more parts than a vending machine.

AC

Itzik
10-20-13, 20:27
I consider any gun that doesn't support appropriate practice to be nonviable for a primary carry gun. I don't know what's your practice routine, but my is such that the gun was unusable from heat in about 50 rounds. You need a second (or third) P7, or good thermo-isolation gloves.
I had my P7 for about 7 years, put over 10,000 rounds through it, sold it and do not miss it a bit.

He said it better then me , I also shoot thousands of rounds from my EDC's and from 50 to 250 rounds each session, that is what makes the gun an extension of my arm and part of me and I did not think that the P7 would be the gun that I could do that with.

Pax
10-20-13, 20:30
Mostly legitimate points of view here. But lets ask a question.

What does any P7 offer that a Walther PPS, Glock 36 or S&W M&P9 Shield does not?

Does the recoil system in a P7 provide such a significant decrease in perceived recoil that it ought to be the new industry standard? Oh, well, no. No it does not. One can still make effective use of, say, a PPS and the most significant factor in recoil control will always be training. In addition, as others have noted for decades, the P7s recoil system actually produces the non-ideal symptom of a very hot, some might say untrainable-with gun.

But does the half-cocking grip thing provide for such a significantly better trigger that all other traditional, striker fired designs are rendered substandard? Well, triggers and their importance are always subjective and dependent on your particular life and needs, but we can objectively say that youre prooobably not going to use this weapon beyond 21 feet or so, so while a nice trigger is always appreciated it should not come at the expense of more practical concerns like the availability of holsters, night sights, trigger kits, extended controls, cheap magazines etc., etc.

So, again, does the P7 have any features that make it significantly better than a PPS or Shield? The answer is your responsibility, it being your life... But given these considerations and your original post, it seems all you really need is a slim weapon, and there are many other respectable, more standardized options on the market for far less money.

Jus sayin..

The Dumb Gun Collector
10-20-13, 20:31
I never had any trouble shooting 100-200 a session through mine. But I don't shoot a lot of 9 shot strings. Doing 1,2,3 drills and 21, 30 and 25yrds. Front, back, laterals, etc the gun cools down sufficiently. If you blast through full mag after full mag it would be a bit sizzly.

yoni
10-20-13, 20:33
I do like hi capacity guns, I will even go as far to say that I think they are a must in high risk places.

I have carried a 1911 in harms way until I was told that I had to carry a Hi Power like everyone else. I soon found that if I put the bullets where I needed to the 9mm worked like the 45 and if I didn't neither worked. But I found that not running out after 8 rounds was a good thing.

Now having said that, I don't view where I go in the USA to be high risk. So as a result I do not feel under gunned at all if I am armed with a PSP and a spare mag.

When I am at work in Afrika or South America I tend to carry like I used to in Gaza, Lebanon or Ramallah.

Army Chief
10-20-13, 20:39
I consider any gun that doesn't support appropriate practice to be nonviable for a primary carry gun.

Honestly guys, where is this stuff coming from? I mean, I do understand the larger point, but are we now saying that practice for basic carry purposes demands several successive strings of rapid fire? If you've just fired 50 rounds though a gun with an eight-round magazine capacity, that's a heck of a lot more reloading than you're ever going to be doing out on the street.

A P7 will heat up quickly if you're just blasting through your ammo, but not quite that quickly, and an M-version with the polymer sleeve mitigates a lot of this, if we're going to be honest about it. Never mind the fact that the system creating the heat is actually pretty ingenious, and makes for an incredibly reliable gun.

Not really interested in the debates. But I'm even less interested in the silliness. The P7 is a good gun. Like it hate it, the facts speak for themselves.

AC

Itzik
10-20-13, 20:40
I never had any trouble shooting 100-200 a session through mine. But I don't shoot a lot of 9 shot strings. Doing 1,2,3 drills and 21, 30 and 25yrds. Front, back, laterals, etc the gun cools down sufficiently. If you blast through full mag after full mag it would be a bit sizzly.

Greg when I shoot I shoot 100 to 200 rounds in less then 30 to 40 minutes some times even faster then that, the reason is I try to put pressure on my self to make it as unrelaxed a session as I can make it and that makes it not necessarily like real combat but it puts pressure on me and trains me to shoot under pressure.
I also believe in moving and shooting and not staying stationary, what we call getting of the X. Even my Glock's and other guns get hot when I am shooting just wondering how hot the P7 would get under the same regimen.

PatrioticDisorder
10-20-13, 20:44
I honestly can't address that with any surety, though I would consider the fact that this is not a rare or unusual gun. Given that was a widely-used service sidearm throughout Germany, a gun sold commercially worldwide for decades, and a gun that is still represented in good numbers here at home, I would expect factory spares to be available for some time.

HK still services them as far as I know, and should the original parts train ever dry up, my sense is that there would be more than enough market motivation to kick a third-party vendor or two into action for any commonly-needed components. In reality, though, aside from the occasional spring or the odd crack in a firing pin bushing, not much fails on these guns, despite the fact that they seem to have more parts than a vending machine.

AC

Interesting, now I wish I would have gotten in back in 2008 when I was first getting into firearms and H&K had either just stopped making them or was on it's last several runs. I do remember a guy who worked at the first LGS I'd went to up in PA carried one and swore by it, but he retired it back in 2008 from EDC because a part did break (can't remember what) and he had a hell of a time finding and waiting for the spare, but did eventually find it.

Itzik
10-20-13, 20:47
I do like hi capacity guns, I will even go as far to say that I think they are a must in high risk places.

I have carried a 1911 in harms way until I was told that I had to carry a Hi Power like everyone else. I soon found that if I put the bullets where I needed to the 9mm worked like the 45 and if I didn't neither worked. But I found that not running out after 8 rounds was a good thing.

Now having said that, I don't view where I go in the USA to be high risk. So as a result I do not feel under gunned at all if I am armed with a PSP and a spare mag.

When I am at work in Afrika or South America I tend to carry like I used to in Gaza, Lebanon or Ramallah.

Yoni when I used to carry a Glock 30/36 hybrid which now is the new 30S in 45 you used to lecture me about not carrying enough ammo and I never remember you carrying anything less then your Glock's with as many rounds as you could, so now you are OK with 8 rounds? well I guess things change.

YVK
10-20-13, 21:17
Honestly guys, where is this stuff coming from? I mean, I do understand the larger point, but are we now saying that practice for basic carry purposes demands several successive strings of rapid fire? If you've just fired 50 rounds though a gun with an eight-round magazine capacity, that's a heck of a lot more reloading than you're ever going to be doing out on the street.

A P7 will heat up quickly if you're just blasting through your ammo, but not quite that quickly, and an M-version with the polymer sleeve mitigates a lot of this, if we're going to be honest about it. Never mind the fact that the system creating the heat is actually pretty ingenious, and makes for an incredibly reliable gun.

Not really interested in the debates. But I'm even less interested in the silliness. The P7 is a good gun. Like it hate it, the facts speak for themselves.

AC

Actually, yes, I thought that multiple fast rounds on a target is what's considered an appropriate lethal force response. Therefore my practice is mix of marksmanship and speed drills. As such, I used to start my practice with several cold runs of FAST or Bill Drills, each being 6 rounds. 5-6 of those, and you're there with P7. In a Vickers class, two rounds of Siebel (spelling?) drill, 36 rounds total, got gun pretty warm, to put it mildly. BTW, mine was P7M8 with a plastic shield, I didn't find it too protective.

I understand an affection for P7's engineering, but the truth is that is wholly non conducive to running fast paced practice drills barehanded for more than one ammo box. I also think that such drills are crucial for "basic carry purposes", but if you thought it was silliness, AC, I'd certainly let you have a last word here.

Army Chief
10-20-13, 21:37
Actually, yes, I thought that multiple fast rounds on a target is what's considered an appropriate lethal force response. Therefore my practice is mix of marksmanship and speed drills. As such, I used to start my practice with several cold runs of FAST or Bill Drills, each being 6 rounds. 5-6 of those, and you're there with P7. In a Vickers class, two rounds of Siebel (spelling?) drill, 36 rounds total, got gun pretty warm, to put it mildly. BTW, mine was P7M8 with a plastic shield, I didn't find it too protective.

I understand an affection for P7's engineering, but the truth is that is wholly non conducive to running fast paced practice drills barehanded for more than one ammo box. I also think that such drills are crucial for "basic carry purposes", but if you thought it was silliness, AC, I'd certainly let you have a last word here.

No need, brother. You've stated your thoughts pretty cogently, and I see no need to call them into question. I think we all ended up giving a five-dollar answer to a 10-cent question on this one, but hey ... it's the weekend. ;)

AC

YVK
10-20-13, 21:54
Reasonable adults will always find something to agree on. Cheers!

jmk
10-20-13, 22:01
i had one that was gifted to me.

LOVED IT: 100% reliable, accurate, slim and what a conversation piece.

never had one problem manipulating the squeeze cocker.

couldn't find additional magazines for it, and forget about holsters...
(at least any that i was willing to pay for - i'm a cheap ass when it comes to pistols).

re-gifted it to a highly respected and far more experienced owner.

bottom line, i feel (and am) far more under-gunned with my kahr pm9 than with the p7.

one of the main attractions of the p7 is surely mystique, but it is a fine defensive carry choice nonetheless.

Itzik
10-20-13, 22:16
i had one that was gifted to me.

LOVED IT: 100% reliable, accurate, slim and what a conversation piece.

never had one problem manipulating the squeeze cocker.

couldn't find additional magazines for it, and forget about holsters...
(at least any that i was willing to pay for - i'm a cheap ass when it comes to pistols).

re-gifted it to a highly respected and far more experienced owner.

bottom line, i feel (and am) far more under-gunned with my kahr pm9 than with the p7.

one of the main attractions of the p7 is surely mystique, but it is a fine defensive carry choice nonetheless.

Try the M&P Shield it is much more gun then the Kahr PM9 which I used to own one and liked it very much for pocket carry. The p7 and the PM9 are not comparable.

Itzik
10-20-13, 22:19
I would like to apologize to everybody for saying that I don't like the HK P7 or in fact any other HK gun which I don't.
I am also sorry I started this long debate but being a very opinionated strong willed person and having the fault of always saying what I think I hope I have not broken any hearts or offended anybody.

HKGuns
10-20-13, 22:27
HK P7M8 viable EDC gun?

Heck yes, without question. It is the quickest pistol to get into action.

Itzik
10-20-13, 22:50
Heck yes, without question. It is the quickest pistol to get into action.

What makes it the quickest? Or any quicker then any other gun?
I say the quickest gun to get into action is the gun in the hands of the quickest person.

YVK
10-20-13, 22:58
Heck yes, without question. It is the quickest pistol to get into action.

What does "get into action" mean, when used to describe a pistol?

kantstudien
10-21-13, 01:32
So long as you have multiples of the same gun (and spare parts) and you only carry and practice with the P7, then it should be no problem for EDC.

Psalms144.1
10-21-13, 06:45
If I had the time to work up a "top 5 favorite" pistols, the P7 would definitely be on it, probably #3 or higher. I LOVE the feel, accuracy, and plain old fashioned FANTASTIC workmanship of that great little pistol. The M8 that's in my safe would likely be the very last firearm I owned that I sold off, if I needed money badly, even though it's definitely worth more than a lot of the other occupants of my safe put together.

Having said all that, it's heavy, and capacity limited, and has a unique manual of arms that, IMHO, should be left to a dedicated and experienced user (same way I feel about 1911s, by the way). Parts are going to be a problem if, God forbid, you break something. Magazines are rarer than hen's teeth, and spendy! Night sight options are pretty damned limited, and holsters that carry the pistol WELL are few and far between, due to the short snout and heavy grip.

WRT the heat issue, I have run across it from time to time when I was still carrying a P7M8, but I've always got plenty of other guns I can shoot while the M8 cools off a little. As stated more eloquently by many others, not an issue in a SD setting, but it can be a pain, literally, if you're a high-round-count trainer.

Bottom line, I love the P7M8, always will, and, in it's day it was THE "small" 9mm for serious work. Today, however, there are plenty of other options that are probably better suited for EDC - and, since you're a P30 carrier, I'd look at the P2000sk pretty hard...

Regards,

Kevin

The Dumb Gun Collector
10-21-13, 07:37
Greg when I shoot I shoot 100 to 200 rounds in less then 30 to 40 minutes some times even faster then that, the reason is I try to put pressure on my self to make it as unrelaxed a session as I can make it and that makes it not necessarily like real combat but it puts pressure on me and trains me to shoot under pressure.
I also believe in moving and shooting and not staying stationary, what we call getting of the X. Even my Glock's and other guns get hot when I am shooting just wondering how hot the P7 would get under the same regimen.


Hey,

You consider the P7 to be "nonviable" because you can't dump 25 mags in 30 minutes without it getting hot. Maybe you should reconsider. Since you think speeding through your drills partially simulates combat, maybe trying to concentrate with a sizzling hot gun will add to the effect?:neo::jester:

MichaelVain
10-21-13, 08:36
The P7's are very concealable. I've used leather OWB holsters as well as just tucking it in a side pocket of a bomber jacket.

The squeeze cocker only needs moderate force to engage, but once engaged does not need alot of force to keep cocked, meaning any normal firing grip will suffice.

The low bore and piston actuated slide allows for very manageable recoil.

To the OP's question, it's very viable for EDC, I did it for a 12 month period. Once I started carrying a bag, I switched to something bulkier because I could.

Campbell
10-21-13, 09:09
Fantastic pistol. Frankly, other than being heavy, it is equal or better than any other compact 9mm available now. The truly great thing about the P7 is how it can be taken from absolutely safe (not "Safe Action," marketing safe, actually totally dead trigger safe) to single action shoot out their eyes ready in an instant. An amazing piece of engineering. It is too bad HK went broke and the brits made them start churning out plastic SIGs.

This. Weight is the only drawback I have ever seen...still carries fine in a good holster. Actually a great design that has helped us get the ergonomics of todays modern pistols...

Itzik
10-21-13, 10:24
Hey,

You consider the P7 to be "nonviable" because you can't dump 25 mags in 30 minutes without it getting hot. Maybe you should reconsider. Since you think speeding through your drills partially simulates combat, maybe trying to concentrate with a sizzling hot gun will add to the effect?:neo::jester:

Having been involved in some combat situations I promise you that speed is of essence, the speed you move, the speed you try to end the situation, the speed you shoot, all that even if it takes a long time doing things very fast (which seems like a contradiction in terms where you ask how it can be so fast but still take a long time like a few hours if you are stuck somewhere and being fired upon or you are trying to take your enemies position).

A sizzling gun in your hands in real combat that you probably will never feel but will have to treat the burn marks after might not be that important in a real situation but is important not to have in training.

Any way I respect all the people that like the HKP7 and all the other HK guns enjoy them, pay exorbitant prices for them, have a difficulty finding parts and equipment for them, live happy knowing that you own one and many others don't.

It reminds me of the old Jaguars that were a terrible car with huge problems but people still got attracted to them and bought them, they are much better now I understand.

I am going to gore another sacred cow, some still buy the Walther PPK when there are much better guns in more effective calibers, lighter, more reliable, softer shooting and even smaller than the PP or PPK, why because James Bond carried one in the movies.

But as I said to each his own JMHO.

pinzgauer
10-21-13, 10:30
Shot a friend's PSP extensively in the 80's, loved it. This was back when 9mm was cheap, so we shot liberally. Never noticed a problem from heat even after long sessions.

Surprised no one is squawking about the euro butt mag release, that was my issue with it. That and so-so 9mm defensive loadings at the time. People forget there was a reason the 10mm &40 were developed, and 45's reentered the LEO scene.

Had a chance to buy one that had one of the early aftermarket "hard" finishes, satin chrome or similar. Its one of the pistols I regret not buying.

As to practice, nothing preventing practice with a P7... Just spread things out a bit.

Many EDC optimized pistols have constraints of one form or another, if it is the best fit for your mission you use it. Even if it means 2hr practice sessions rather than 1.

People are quite dismissive now of safety vs speed tradeoffs. And just handling safety in general, and we see AD's to support that even by people paid to handle them daily. The P7 series was a huge break thru for both speed and safety at a time when the options were mainly smith 39 or 59, 1911 .45, or a high power. The only sigs really available in the US were sold as browning BDA's and were stupid expensive. And still had the euro mag release, if I recall.

For compact usage the smiths were really the only other option, or a commander at the upper end of things. Deutonics and the star PD changed that, but at the time the p7 was probably thee most compact 9 around. Still pretty compact/thin for the "shoot ability".

If I had one I'd have no issues carrying it given improvements in 9mm stopping results. If I find a deal I'd pick one up, though it'd be hard to justify the extra $$ over a ppq/pps combo.

Sent from my PRC-104 using phonetics

yoni
10-21-13, 10:33
GSG9 never cried about their P7's getting hot.

Old Jags don't run well, P7 runs great.

pinzgauer
10-21-13, 10:42
It reminds me of the old Jaguars that were a terrible car with huge problems but people still got attracted to them and bought them, they are much better now I understand.


Very flawed analogy as the P7 was not a "terrible pistol with huge problems". If you compared it to an early MB SL, or BMW roadster, I'd agree... Well engineered, too expensive compared to alternatives, and an acquired taste.

Then again, I own a pinzgauer, which would face the same criticisms. And until you spend some time in one off road compared to traditional 4x4's you will not understand.


I am going to gore another sacred cow, some still buy the Walther PPK when there are much better guns in more effective calibers, lighter, more reliable, softer shooting and even smaller than the PP or PPK, why because James Bond carried

Nah, we carry PPQ's and P99's now. The PP only used with white tie. Rule 1!


Sent from my PRC-104 using phonetics

C4IGrant
10-21-13, 10:47
Having been involved in some combat situations I promise you that speed is of essence, the speed you move, the speed you try to end the situation, the speed you shoot, all that even if it takes a long time doing things very fast (which seems like a contradiction in terms where you ask how it can be so fast but still take a long time like a few hours if you are stuck somewhere and being fired upon or you are trying to take your enemies position).

Speed is important, but not to the extent that people think. Accurate hits into critical areas matters more.



Any way I respect all the people that like the HKP7 and all the other HK guns enjoy them, pay exorbitant prices for them, have a difficulty finding parts and equipment for them, live happy knowing that you own one and many others don't.

It reminds me of the old Jaguars that were a terrible car with huge problems but people still got attracted to them and bought them, they are much better now I understand.

Parts are available and HK has fantastic CS (now). So you can get support from them.

P7's (LE Trade ins) popped up on the Dealer circuit FOR $500 and under in the past.



C4

C4IGrant
10-21-13, 10:57
Actually, yes, I thought that multiple fast rounds on a target is what's considered an appropriate lethal force response. Therefore my practice is mix of marksmanship and speed drills. As such, I used to start my practice with several cold runs of FAST or Bill Drills, each being 6 rounds. 5-6 of those, and you're there with P7. In a Vickers class, two rounds of Siebel (spelling?) drill, 36 rounds total, got gun pretty warm, to put it mildly. BTW, mine was P7M8 with a plastic shield, I didn't find it too protective.

I understand an affection for P7's engineering, but the truth is that is wholly non conducive to running fast paced practice drills barehanded for more than one ammo box. I also think that such drills are crucial for "basic carry purposes", but if you thought it was silliness, AC, I'd certainly let you have a last word here.


You and AC BOTH have a point. Is the P7 series (PSP/M8/M10/M13) a good gun for CCW? Yes.

Is the PSP/M8/M10/M13 a good gun to take to a training class with a high round count? No, not really (unless you have 2 of them and can switch between them).

From an engineering standpoint, the P7 series is simply awesome. On top of that, mag changes with an M8, M10, M13 is super fact. Trigger is excellent and accuracy is off the chart. On top of this, the grip safety is fantastic for many different reasons. Most people don't know how to activate it (making the gun safe in a bad guys hands in the event you get it taken from you). Children lack the hand strength to pull it (safer in the home if you forget to put your gun away).

The ABOVE average CCW holder shoots between 50-100rds a month. In this capacity, I think the gun is just fine AND allows the shooter to get a mixed amount of speed drills and accuracy drills done. So yes, I recommend it for carry and home defense.



C4

kdcgrohl
10-21-13, 11:13
What are you guys who have carried them using for holsters?

C4IGrant
10-21-13, 11:14
What are you guys who have carried them using for holsters?

Milt Sparks VM2



C4

HKGuns
10-21-13, 11:49
What does "get into action" mean, when used to describe a pistol?

See Greg's post above, he pretty much nails it.

Itzik
10-21-13, 11:55
Speed is important, but not to the extent that people think. Accurate hits into critical areas matters more.




Parts are available and HK has fantastic CS (now). So you can get support from them.

P7's (LE Trade ins) popped up on the Dealer circuit FOR $500 and under in the past.



C4

When I say speed is important I am not saying that being accurate is not.

When the used police guns popped on the market some were in good shape some needed attention and parts were hard to find, HK service at that time was terrible so why would anybody want to deal with that I don't know but they still sold to the fan crowd, the same way the old Jaguars were selling to their fan's.

There is nothing anybody can say to change my mind that in this day and age with guns like the Glock 26, M&P C and Shield, Walther PSP, and the like being available that I would buy an HK P7 instead and pay twice as much for it when I could buy almost two for the price of one.

Now if I already had one and wanted to keep it because it had some sentimental value and I had nothing else better I probably would not hesitate to use it as my EDC but would practice with it very sparingly.

Itzik
10-21-13, 12:04
GSG9 never cried about their P7's getting hot.

Old Jags don't run well, P7 runs great.

GSG9 used what they were told to use and at that time it was a very advanced design and it was made in Germany.
If you ask me I would have taken the S&W 669, 6906 with 12+1 over the HK P7 any day and I did carry the S&W at that time and loved it.
FTM I gave my Daughter the 6906 I had that I bought for $325.00 a police trade, in almost new condition and she still has it and you can find parts, mag's, holsters all day long and it is a great shooter.

Army Chief
10-21-13, 12:05
Wow. This is still going?

Guys, it's a 40-year old pistol that still works pretty darned well for EDC, and that's all the OP was asking about. That was it. All of this business about combat and high-volume fire and parts scarcity (not the case) and what-else-is-out-there right now is really kind of irrelevant to the basic question.

Heck, an old Beretta 84 or SIG 230 are still viable EDC pieces in in .380, and neither of them represents the current state of the art, either.

Just have a gun. The P7 remains a good one. What else need really be said?

AC

Itzik
10-21-13, 12:13
See Greg's post above, he pretty much nails it.

No it doesn't it is one person's opinion, a good shooter can shoot any gun fast and accurately and a bad shooter can still not be able to do so no matter how good and fast the gun is.

Gary Miculek can shoot a revolver faster then most can shoot a Semi Auto.

Some trick shooters can shoot a SAA faster and more accurately then most of us can blink an eye, does that mean we should all carry revolvers and or SAA's? Does it make their guns faster then any other gun into action?

MichaelVain
10-21-13, 12:17
Any way I respect all the people that like the HKP7 and all the other HK guns enjoy them, pay exorbitant prices for them, have a difficulty finding parts and equipment for them, live happy knowing that you own one and many others don't.


These kinds of statements are so tiring.

Quite honestly, you couldn't pay me to own any of the junk you mentioned as alternatives.

Itzik
10-21-13, 12:35
These kinds of statements are so tiring.

Quite honestly, you couldn't pay me to own any of the junk you mentioned as alternatives.

Your statement is not only tiring it is a blanket insult on everybody here, the 99.9% of the people that use Glock's, M&P's, Sig's, 1911's, BHP's Etc. that you claim are junk.

Itzik
10-21-13, 12:37
Hey Yoni from all the old make and model guns that are still on the market and liked by many shooters which one would you say is the better gun the BHP or the P7?

MichaelVain
10-21-13, 12:58
Your statement is not only tiring it is a blanket insult on everybody here, the 99.9% of the people that use Glock's, M&P's, Sig's, 1911's, BHP's Etc. that you claim are junk.

Not sure where you thought I was including 1911's, BHP's, and SIG's. I've got plenty of them.

Army Chief
10-21-13, 13:19
Your statement is not only tiring it is a blanket insult on everybody here, the 99.9% of the people that use Glock's, M&P's, Sig's, 1911's, BHP's Etc. that you claim are junk.

Check fire, please. You are wading into waters that really do not need to be disturbed.

Understand that you are still getting your bearings here, and that the site culture may or may not be readily-apparent, but we do not engage each other in this fashion, and to be honest, your remarks in the thread have been strongly-flavored to say the least.

Relax. Settle-in a bit. Let it ride.

AC

H&K
10-21-13, 13:38
What are you guys who have carried them using for holsters?


TT Mike's special.

http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q637/boesep01/004m.jpg

C4IGrant
10-21-13, 14:21
When I say speed is important I am not saying that being accurate is not.

When the used police guns popped on the market some were in good shape some needed attention and parts were hard to find, HK service at that time was terrible so why would anybody want to deal with that I don't know but they still sold to the fan crowd, the same way the old Jaguars were selling to their fan's.

There is nothing anybody can say to change my mind that in this day and age with guns like the Glock 26, M&P C and Shield, Walther PSP, and the like being available that I would buy an HK P7 instead and pay twice as much for it when I could buy almost two for the price of one.

Now if I already had one and wanted to keep it because it had some sentimental value and I had nothing else better I probably would not hesitate to use it as my EDC but would practice with it very sparingly.

I don't think anyone IS trying to change your mind. I also would NOT carry a P7 (PSP) for CCW, but would (and have) carried the M8. Even ran it through Hackathorn's Advanced Pistol class for one day. Did well with it.

It is viable carry gun for those that want to use it.


C4

Itzik
10-21-13, 15:00
These kinds of statements are so tiring.

Quite honestly, you couldn't pay me to own any of the junk you mentioned as alternatives.


Check fire, please. You are wading into waters that really do not need to be disturbed.

Understand that you are still getting your bearings here, and that the site culture may or may not be readily-apparent, but we do not engage each other in this fashion, and to be honest, your remarks in the thread have been strongly-flavored to say the least.

Relax. Settle-in a bit. Let it ride.

AC

That is right AC but I was responding to above statement, what I would like to know is which guns does he think are junk.
he mentioned HK's, Sig's, 1911's and BHP's as acceptable guns to him.

I would like to know if he thinks that Walther's, S&W M&P's, Glock's, XD's, are junk?

I know I am relatively new here and I am not trying to insult or attack people personally but I never imagined that it will turn to that just because I said that IMHO the HK P7 is not something I would choose to carry if I could carry something else.

I am trying to understand that if I disagree with someone that has been here for a while longer then me I am breaking a rule so I don't do it again.

Also respect is earned based on knowledge and experience and being able to debate things with facts not by calling everything else that you don't like junk, I never called the HK junk.

I am done with this thread.

Army Chief
10-21-13, 15:22
Not assessing right or wrong here. Just making a plea for civility, before noses get bent over things that have no real significance. An ounce of prevention, and all that.

Understand that there were a few comments made that invited further explanation or clarification, but specific discourses on other alternatives probably belong elsewhere.

This thread posed a very specific opening question, and I think the answer has been given about eight different ways. The rest is kind of white noise. Not bad discussion. Just discussion that doesn't have a lot to do with carrying a P7.

AC

YVK
10-21-13, 15:34
Grant, I found that P7M8 reloads were some of the slowest reloads I ever did. I mean, they absolutely killed my FAST times, or any reload-incorporated drills.

Anyway, I could reply to other stuff in this thread as well as bring some other critical points, but I decided not to. I think that OP got an idea of gun's strengths, and is now attuned to the fact that there are some people who spent considerable time with the gun and found it lacking.

OP, if you wanna continue hearing me bash P7:D, feel free to PM. Everyone else, enjoy your P7s. If I get around to do it, I'll try to find and post my DelFatti gear for sale, I think I still have it. BTW, I believe he understand P7 platform the best from holster making prospective, and his gear rocks.

C4IGrant
10-21-13, 15:50
Grant, I found that P7M8 reloads were some of the slowest reloads I ever did. I mean, they absolutely killed my FAST times, or any reload-incorporated drills.

Interesting. The mag just FLY's out of that gun. I smoked reloads with them. Same goes with the PPQ. Fastest reloading gun I have ever owned.


Anyway, I could reply to other stuff in this thread as well as bring some other critical points, but I decided not to. I think that OP got an idea of gun's strengths, and is now attuned to the fact that there are some people who spent considerable time with the gun and found it lacking.

I agree the gun has issues. Then again, which gun doesn't? Each person has to figure out what they like and what matters to them the most.


C4

YVK
10-21-13, 16:17
Interesting. The mag just FLY's out of that gun. I smoked reloads with them.

C4

I identified small mags, very tight magwell to the mag dimensions (no way to improve this too), and flush fit baseplates as three most important reasons for slow reloads.

C4IGrant
10-21-13, 16:25
I identified small mags, very tight magwell to the mag dimensions (no way to improve this too), and flush fit baseplates as three most important reasons for slow reloads.

Ya, they were small. I shot 1911's for a long time, so the mags didn't bother me.

Not having to hit a slide release or over hand release of the slide saved time as well and got the gun back on target faster I think.



C4

Psalms144.1
10-21-13, 17:51
I identified small mags, very tight magwell to the mag dimensions (no way to improve this too), and flush fit baseplates as three most important reasons for slow reloads.As much as I love the P7M8, I'm with you in that I reload it DRAMATICALLY slower than just about any other pistol I've ever run - despite Grant's correctly identified "ejector seat" response with the empties. As expensive and hard to find as M8 mags are, I hate shooting over concrete because the empty mags tend to get dinged up quite a bit...

Regards,

Kevin

G-lock
10-21-13, 17:58
I really like my P7(PSP). Got a smoking deal on it and had it hard chromed. I like it for it's uniqueness and I carry it from time to time in a Raven Concealment holster.

Heck, I even ran it in our local 2 gun match last month and I discovered the heel release speed reduction was offset by being able to drop the slide by just cocking the gun.

Jeff

MichaelVain
10-21-13, 17:59
I would agree the P7 PSP is a slower reload as you need to actuate the heel release with your other hand and actually pull the magazine out (when I actuate it, I have the gun canted), then proceed with the reload.

Is this going to be a deal breaker in an EDC gun? I don't know. Could it be a deal breaker if you're doing speed drills? I'm sure.

Another aspect that I didnt see mentioned is that the P7 has a 4.1 inch barrel in a gun that's 6.5 inches in total length that has a fixed barrel, and is only 1 inch wide. This is a very small footprint which allows it to be carried in various ways (holster, pocket). The "safety" is very ingenious and does not have a danger of accidental discharge just by having the trigger mechanism actuated.

Accuracy from the 4.1 fixed barrel is well documented.

Itzik
10-21-13, 18:14
Just curious has anybody measured the trigger pull weight of the P7?

MichaelVain
10-21-13, 18:25
Just curious has anybody measured the trigger pull weight of the P7?

4.5 lbs.

Itzik
10-21-13, 18:38
Thanks

YVK
10-21-13, 18:53
Just curious has anybody measured the trigger pull weight of the P7?

4.3 out of the box, 3.9 after 6K. If it weren't for a long reset, the sonofabitch could be called an ideal trigger, at least to my tastes.

Kevin, try running reload drills on a Kahr MK-9, you'll feel better about P7.

I have not found squeeze cocker slide drop any faster than strong side thumb drop, especially with pistols with well designed slide stop/release levers.

Itzik
10-21-13, 19:02
4.3 out of the box, 3.9 after 6K. If it weren't for a long reset, the sonofabitch could be called an ideal trigger, at least to my tastes.

Kevin, try running reload drills on a Kahr MK-9, you'll feel better about P7.

I have not found squeeze cocker slide drop any faster than strong side thumb drop, especially with pistols with well designed slide stop/release levers.

I put that in another thread but my PPQ M2 out of the box has a trigger pull of a little over 4 pounds, I would say it is almost 4 pounds when it is supposed to be over 5 pounds.

YVK
10-21-13, 19:15
I put that in another thread but my PPQ M2 out of the box has a trigger pull of a little over 4 pounds, I would say it is almost 4 pounds when it is supposed to be over 5 pounds.

Hopefully, it will not be a significant deviation from a thread, but

a) this is my biggest issue with PPQ, I think 100% pre-cocked safety-less 4+ lbs gun with almost no pretravel is a no go for carry. I hope I don't offend you with this, this just my opinion.

b) factory pull weights are just nominal estimates, there is always a range; I think that there is 2 lbs range on P7 squeeze cocker.

c) I have pretty much given up on pull scales (which is how my P7 was measured, btw), and use a weight set. It can only give a range, but I take it over pull scales.

jmk
10-21-13, 19:19
Try the M&P Shield it is much more gun then the Kahr PM9 which I used to own one and liked it very much for pocket carry. The p7 and the PM9 are not comparable.

agree. Shield was not available at the time i bought the PM9, and PM9 is still a bit more compact. I'll get the Shield someday now that i've taken care of most of my other firearm priorities.

they actually are comparable b/c the capacity is nearly the same along with other similarities; so, comparable, but you're right that they're not in the same class.
the point was to contrast against all the nay-sayers who don't see the value in the p7.

Itzik
10-21-13, 19:37
Hopefully, it will not be a significant deviation from a thread, but

a) this is my biggest issue with PPQ, I think 100% pre-cocked safety-less 4+ lbs gun with almost no pretravel is a no go for carry. I hope I don't offend you with this, this just my opinion.

b) factory pull weights are just nominal estimates, there is always a range; I think that there is 2 lbs range on P7 squeeze cocker.

c) I have pretty much given up on pull scales (which is how my P7 was measured, btw), and use a weight set. It can only give a range, but I take it over pull scales.

I used weights also, not a pull scale. The 4 pounds pull made me think a little but because of the best safety being between my ears that keep my finger away from the trigger I am getting used to it.
When I tried the P7 the trigger felt lighter then that, it almost felt like a 2.5 to 3 pound trigger that's why I asked but I never actually measured it, with a crisp trigger like that it is no wonder many like it and shoot it really well

Itzik
10-21-13, 19:39
agree. Shield was not available at the time i bought the PM9, and PM9 is still a bit more compact. I'll get the Shield someday now that i've taken care of most of my other firearm priorities.

they actually are comparable b/c the capacity is nearly the same along with other similarities; so, comparable, but you're right that they're not in the same class.
the point was to contrast against all the nay-sayers who don't see the value in the p7.

Make no mistake about it I used to love my PM9 it was one of a few Kahr's that worked 100% for me.

Pilot1
10-22-13, 08:07
One of my P7's, a German surplus (BMI) trade in, is in my regular carry rotation. My P7M8 stays as a pristine range gun, but the PSP having a little holster wear is perfect for EDC. I am OK with nine rounds of 9MM.

It is one of the easier pistols for me to put rounds on target quickly. Neither has ever had a failure in years of use.

Army Chief
10-22-13, 08:39
Interestingly, after having owned most of the P7 variants (as alluded to above), the one I really came to favor was the original PSP form factor -- even with the original heel-mount mag release -- as the lines of the gun are even more compact and streamlined than the M-series. Granted, I can't fire a zillion rounds in rapid fire without wearing an M-60 barrel glove, and my reloads may be slower (did I miss with my first nine rounds, really?), but I still love the gun for what it is.

I managed to purchase one privately in Germany, so it is unique in that it bears no importation marks as an individual US service-member bring-back. Can't be too many of those around.

Maybe I should stuff the thing in my pocket again once in a while, after all.

AC

Campbell
10-22-13, 08:59
Interestingly, after having owned most of the P7 variants (as alluded to above), the one I really came to favor was the original PSP form factor -- even with the original heel-mount mag release -- as the lines of the gun are even more compact and streamlined than the M-series. Granted, I can't fire a zillion rounds in rapid fire without wearing an M-60 barrel glove, and my reloads may be slower (did I miss with my first nine rounds, really?), but I still love the gun for what it is.

I managed to purchase one privately in Germany, so it is unique in that it bears no importation marks as an individual US service-member bring-back. Can't be too many of those around.

Maybe I should stuff the thing in my pocket again once in a while, after all.

AC

Yes you should.:)

yoni
10-22-13, 10:37
I carried mine this morning, just dropped it into the right front pants pocket of my pants and away I went.

I wonder if someone used different more modern materials to update the P7 to solve the heat issue if a clone would sell?

Don Robison
10-22-13, 10:56
OK, All of this P7 talk made me pull mine from the shop safe so I can hit the range with after class today.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

p7fl
10-22-13, 11:22
Any mention of the P7 is certain to bring up intense debate.
I carried and competed with P7s for 12 years before moving on.

Since the topic is daily carry, I found the best IWB holster to be "summer heat" from Wild Bills Concealment and have 3 of them. The holster was initially designed around the P7. The gun rides low, balances the butt and gives quick access to a full grip.
Warning: when I last dealt with this company a few years ago, the final two experiences were very bad. So buy at your own risk and definitely use a credit card.

raydoctor
10-22-13, 18:09
I carry an M13 daily so it's still a viable carry gun for me! It's certainly not perfect but it fits my needs better than any other pistol overall. I've experimented with many pistols over the years including Glocks, other HKs, XDs, 1911s, BHP's, Walthers, Steyrs, and a few others. I pretty much liked them all and they all have their own merits. There are a bizillion threads regurgitating the strengths and weaknesses of the P7 platform so I won't go through them.....Greg put together the most well known Pros & Cons list many years ago which is still accurate today. I will say that one of the areas where I think the P7 platform excels (for me anyway) is shot to shot follow up.

FromMyColdDeadHand
10-24-13, 18:35
WOO-HOO! A P7 thread!!!!!



Yes, it is a great little pistol, I drop mine in my pocket several times a week, to run to put in gas or buy groceries.

I think the PSP with one spare mag, can solve 99.99% of the problems you have a chance of running into.

I have over 50 year olds eyes so the sights are hard for me to see, I wish I could get better sights on it. If it had better sights I would carry it more often.


I carried mine this morning, just dropped it into the right front pants pocket of my pants and away I went.

I wonder if someone used different more modern materials to update the P7 to solve the heat issue if a clone would sell?

How does everyone feel about carrying the gun with out a holster in a pocket? My thought is that it seems pretty remote that the grip could be squeezed and the trigger pulled, even with tight pants or deeep knee bends.

It is so ass heavy, which is the real problem to me. I actually would like a 5 inch barrel on it to help even it out. It is pretty short as it is, and would allow the mounting of a light.

I bought a 3D printer and I already scanned by PSP to see if I could print a plastic frame in POM.

I like the PSP for its slick no hang up or buttons to get pushed. After Aurora and turning 40, I went to a M&P with an x300 and RMR.

I have various holsters. Blade tech IWB- Bad. Raven, good. Comp-tac minatour might be my favorite.

yoni
10-24-13, 19:00
I use mine for running to the gas station or other such things. I feel fine about just dropping it in my pocket with no holster.

The Dumb Gun Collector
10-24-13, 19:08
Safest pocket carry ever. But too heavy.

KTR03
10-25-13, 10:43
I love p7m8s. I love them so much I have bought them twice. Incredibly accurate. Reliable. Flat. Easy to reload, safe, low bore access...

I have 4 problems with them.
1) If you love them, you should dedicate yourself to this platform. in my opinion this is a gun you marry - not date. I have seen p7m8 shooter forget to cock them. I don't think you can spend thousands of hours with conventional pistols and then go for a walk with a p7m8 and be confident that you will run it under pressure.
2) Overall cost of ownership. Holsters, magazines, parts... are expensive.
3) Capacity. It holds half what a G19 holds.
4) Shooting in the Dark: I spent several hours doing flashlight techniques with one and just could not do Harris reliably under pressure. Hit the button on the light, squeeze the gun, shoot. Decock, turn off light, move... Get target, turn on light, cock gun.... Just really hard. No you may be able to do that, but for me it was like rubbing your stomach and patting your head.

So its a great gun. but a p7m8 with ten mags will cost you what 3 glock 19s with 10 mags will cost. So on balance, I went back to G19s.

Amur
10-25-13, 11:36
It's an excellent choice of carry guns for gentlemen of exquisite taste and character.

Archer1440
10-29-13, 14:57
What are you guys who have carried them using for holsters?

Custom Alessi CQC-I, mag holder and belt, all custom made for my by Lou Alessi himself a few years before he passed away. Carried when motorcycling, mostly, or when deep concealment is needed, occasionally, with a custom 1911 carried the rest of the time.

I have a plain black P7M8 and a HK factory hard chromed (post import) P7M8. With these pistols, I can put 6-7 of 10 rounds on steel IDPA silhouettes at 200 yards offhand using ball ammo- it is really that accurate.

MichaelVain
10-29-13, 15:25
It's an excellent choice of carry guns for gentlemen of exquisite taste and character.

You, sir, win the internet.

yoni
10-29-13, 21:00
I have a Milt Sparks inside the pants holster for mine

HKGuns
10-30-13, 22:56
I use a FIST #16 for my P7's.

bzdog
10-31-13, 01:36
While not a P7, I carried an all metal Sig P239 for many years. I LOVED that firearm, small, super reliable and super accurate. But it's a lot of weight for 8+1IMO. I switched to a HK P2000SK and IIRC, it's lighter loaded with 10+1 vs the unloaded P239. Not only that, but I can carry P30 full capacity spares.

My carry jumped from 25 rounds to 41 rounds. I haven't looked back.

Was/is the P239 a viable CCW choice? Absolutely. But you need to weigh the pros and cons and see how they tip for you.

-john

davebee456
11-01-13, 14:00
I have had one or two and loved them .....BUT
Heavier than a 1911, 8 shots of 9mm and the gun gets hotter than lava after one magazine dump....
ill stick to my hi capacity polymers

Trajan
11-01-13, 14:33
Doesn't all of the weight in the grip area combined with the short barrel/slide make the gun want to flop out?

Army Chief
11-01-13, 14:52
Definitely a butt-heavy design, yes, which is why folks are highlighting the importance of dedicated holster designs. Del Fatti seems to have cracked the code in leather (as have a few others -- just be willing to invest in quality), and I've found RCS to be a pretty stable option in kydex.

I carry and use 1911s pretty exclusively, but still own a P7 and consider it a viable gun. That and a PPQ are really the only exceptions I've considered worth adding to (or keeping in) the armamentarium, handgun-wise. All serve a purpose.

Back to the heat issues, again? OK, fair enough. But not really a big deal for carry purposes. Seems like we're sort of chasing our tails on this one. A P7 is an all-steel, (normally) single-stack pistol with a very unique profile, configuration and operating system. Trying to compare it to anything else, old or new, is difficult at best.

You really have to consider the gun on it's own merits and decide whether or not it brings anything of interest to the table for you. Admittedly, unless you have a background with the gun, or are just really into some of the more unique aspects of it's design and operation, the appeal is likely to be limited. Important considerations for me back in the day were that the gun was fully ambidextrous when virtually nothing else was, and it was easy to teach to new shooters (i.e. family members). The whole quality, speed and accuracy thing kept me into them, even though I did ultimately thin the herd quite a bit over time.

AC

YVK
11-02-13, 00:01
Doesn't all of the weight in the grip area combined with the short barrel/slide make the gun want to flop out?

Dedicated holster from a maker who understands the gun is a must. Matt DelFatti is the best.
I had an above mentioned Alessi CQC. It was molded so tight it was unusable for any kind of speed draw. I am talking one year of trying to break it in. I used P7 as a secondary for carbine classes in that holster. It never came close to leaving the holster with all the rolling, proning etc, despite absence of any retention features. I think it was done that way to keep gun stable.
Pretty much impossible to carry in an appendix position. I can carry just about any gun that way in a Shaggy, but not P7.

arcticlightfighter
11-02-13, 15:08
Arrrggghh.....all of this talk of P7's is compelling me to seek one out. I must not buy...another....HK

Bugs
12-15-16, 08:17
Reviving a dead thread, but the P7 is a viable EDC platform.

I carry mine daily, have trained with it extensively, and prefer it for serious use. Once the manual of arms has been practiced into reflex, or muscle memory, or whatever you want to call it, the P7 platform offers striking advantages of handiness, speed, ruggedness, and inherent safety. I own, carry, and have trained with 1911, S&W autos and revolvers, and Glocks, and prefer the P7.

On the other hand, magazines and parts are expensive, and qualified gunsmiths are limited to a handful. Field servicing beyond slide and firing pin removal is not advisable due to the multitude of small springs, levers, and parts. The slide weight, especially compared to contemporary polymer weapons, coupled with "triangular" profile, require a specific holster design with plenty of lateral OWB support or IWB design. The slide, if not kept oiled, can be subject to oxidation.

Another "disadvantage" is that since the weapon system is so thoroughly optimized, there are essentially zero "upgrades" possible, which may be a negative for a generation of tinkerers, but is a bonus in a serious use gun. One exception may be having the weapon plated or coated, a favorite option of enthusiasts who otherwise have no way to personalize their pistols.

Mine remains bone stock, except for the (now faded) Trijicon sights, which never worked properly due to misaligned dots, a Trijicon problem across the platform. My pistol is a 97 gun, and the trigger is beginning to show its age. The time is nearing for a rebuild, but I'm not entirely comfortable with giving up the weapon for a few weeks or months.

Bottom line - fantastic, optimized pistol for serious use and daily carry by those willing to make it their frontline weapon. "She is a jealous mistress", as Massad Ayoob told me.

Pilot1
12-15-16, 09:26
Like AC said; yes. I still carry my original type P7 on occasion when I want a slim gun.

So do I, an it is the heal mag release P7 PSP. My P7M8 has always been just a range gun, and spends a lot of time in the safe now, but I do shoot the P7 PSP, and carry it on occasion. I believe the P7 is still a relevant gun for carry. Yes, their are lighter, higher capacity options now, but nine rounds of 9MM Luger, in a compact, accurate, and reliable package still makes sense to me. Their current prices, are causing people to use them less, and less IMHO.

Skyviking
12-15-16, 12:09
I carried a P7M13 for awhile when working as a Customs Investigator, but the loaded magazines rattled like castanets - noisier than Mexican Rodeo spurs. I picked up a PSP, and it was a very sweet pistola, but I traded it off for a Wilson 1911 (still have that). The P7 was revolutionary when it was introduced, and it still occupies an esoteric niche in the small arms world, but there are much lighter, more compact, and/or higher capacity offerings out there. The Plastik Pistolen have pretty much revolutionized the firearms field pertaining to guns for serious carry. You would be adequately armed with a P7, but you can carry more spare 8-rd. magazines for a Walther PPS or P99c and have a lighter, smaller total carry package load-out than a P7 and one or 2 spare magazines. If small is your goal, then a SIG P938 9 (an aluminum alloy frame and steel exception) beats the P7 weight and size-wise, giving up only 1 round in the bargain. Time marches on. Only the 1911 remains as the relevant combat sidearm from the turn of the 20th-Century, otherwise we'd all still be carrying/choosing between P-08s (Lugers), Mauser 1896s, or wheelguns. Even among the revolutionary combat handgun of (pre)WWII such as the Browning P35 and Walther HP/P38, only the P35 is considered relevant or viable today. Carrying a P7 today would be akin to carrying a Luger in WWII. Great Technical Tour de Force, but a P38 or FN HiPower would be much more practical (I'd go with a HiPower).

Bugs
12-15-16, 13:03
OK. That's fine with me. I have an affinity for Hi Powers, Lugers, prewar revolvers, and old bolt action rifles too, so maybe your analogy holds some truth.

I don't shoot a lightweight subcompact polymer pistol any better than - or even as well as - my P7M8. It just works for me, period. Carry weight? Sure, the polys win. Ergonomics/function/safety? P7, by my way of thinking. But that's just me.

And by the way, the "old" P7 design vs. the "modern" Glock - six years, give or take, separates them, fewer if you consider the M8 version. Polymer framed striker fired pistols are cheaper to manufacture and purchase. That is their advantage. Are they "better"? I guess it depends on your criteria. They certainly have their place for the vast majority of contemporary gun owners and LEO.

Is the P7 platform is an evolutionary dead end? Sure it is. And I'm keeping mine, EDCing it, and feeling suitably armed and skilled.

Skyviking
12-15-16, 17:40
At least you won't burn your fingers too badly rattling off a bunch of rounds with the M8 version. Most P7 shooters don't need a lot of rounds to get the job done, though, because those that carry them exclusively, usually train a bunch.
The P7 was a spectacularly cutting-edge, technological tour-de-force pistola in its day. It is still a good pistola, but it has been been eclipsed by lighter, more ergonomic, and compact pistolas. I would rather carry my P2000SK or a P30SK than a P7, but like any personal firearm carried in harm's by choice, rather than Agency Fiat, it's a personal choice, made by each and every one of us every time we strap on our gun belts. I can carry my PPS M1 in my pocket, though, and carried a G26 as my BUG in a pocket holster for many years. Both will do everything the P7 can, albeit with a lot less 'elan.