PDA

View Full Version : Sphinx's new line of SDP Compacts!



Tacti-square
10-22-13, 01:55
These are absolutely gorgeous....

http://www.sphinxarms.com/index.php/sdp-compact-line

LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-22-13, 02:13
These are absolutely gorgeous....

http://www.sphinxarms.com/index.php/sdp-compact-line

Umm cool. What is it that you like about these other than the cosmetics?

theblackknight
10-22-13, 06:24
Those are the new CZ-226's.

Tacti-square
10-22-13, 09:27
Umm cool. What is it that you like about these other than the cosmetics?

They're built off a proven design and they hand-fit parts

Petrov
10-22-13, 15:12
Never held one but a fellow cz nut did.
They are cz75 done right.
The trigger is easy to reach and the reset is short. On regulaz cz's the reset feels like rowing a ****ingnboat. Hell my n frame 627 has a better feeling reset.

dwhitehorne
10-22-13, 16:40
It looks kind of like their version of the P-07. David

TiroFijo
10-22-13, 16:54
I have a CZ 75 (pre-B), and have fired many other CZ versions of it, and clonest (tanfoglio, IMI jerico, etc.). Looks like they are still cloning them :)

Perhaps the sphinx does bring something new/better to this 38 year old design... who knows. I have to say that the words "absolutely gorgeous" do not pop up in my mind when I see the pictures, but this is something personal.

Jellybean
10-22-13, 17:04
Oooooh.... It's like an FNX/Glock/1911/Sig hybrid. *drools*
Of course they had to make it da/sa.... :rolleyes::(
Oh well, moving on....

Tacti-square
10-22-13, 17:36
Oooooh.... It's like an FNX/Glock/1911/Sig hybrid. *drools*
Of course they had to make it da/sa.... :rolleyes::(
Oh well, moving on....

What's wrong with DA/SA? Apparently it has one of the nicest SA trigger pulls out there

Magsz
10-22-13, 18:59
Never held one but a fellow cz nut did.
They are cz75 done right.
The trigger is easy to reach and the reset is short. On regulaz cz's the reset feels like rowing a ****ingnboat. Hell my n frame 627 has a better feeling reset.

What planet are you from?

The CZ75 has a 2.5mm reset...

Petrov
10-22-13, 21:02
What planet are you from?

The CZ75 has a 2.5mm reset...

The planet with b model cz's. Most of their lineup comes with FPB which legthens the reset with the exception of cz85 and the competition guns.

Magsz
10-23-13, 00:59
I have a B and an SP01 and the reset is marginally longer than my Shadows.

Timed shooting standards and my ability to run the same tempo splits do not change between guns...

Mysteryman
10-23-13, 02:48
What's wrong with DA/SA? Apparently it has one of the nicest SA trigger pulls out there

The problem is the DA. Learning two distinct trigger pulls is dumb. The day of DA/SA exposed hammer, manual safety guns is dead. No advantages whatsoever over modern striker fired pistols.

MM

Tacti-square
10-23-13, 03:00
The problem is the DA. Learning two distinct trigger pulls is dumb. The day of DA/SA exposed hammer, manual safety guns is dead. No advantages whatsoever over modern striker fired pistols.

MM

It's only one pull that's different, right? I don't see the big deal, then again I haven't hopped on the Glock bandwagon. Besides, not too many striker-fired pistols come in stainless steel too

Mysteryman
10-23-13, 03:25
It's only one pull that's different, right? I don't see the big deal, then again I haven't hopped on the Glock bandwagon. Besides, not too many striker-fired pistols come in stainless steel too

You need to decide if you're a collector in search of another piece, or a shooter looking for a tool to do a job. Two different trigger pulls is twice as much work as an SA or DAO gun to learn and master. Stainless is a looks issue, not a performance issue. For the collector that may be important, for the shooter, it has no relevance.

MM

Pilot1
10-23-13, 04:39
Perhaps the sphinx does bring something new/better to this 38 year old design... who knows. I have to say that the words "absolutely gorgeous" do not pop up in my mind when I see the pictures, but this is something personal.

I was really excited when I saw this post because as a big CZ fan, I've always wanted a Swiss made Sphinx clone, as their build quality is top notch. However, I am just so tired of clunky, large dust covers with rails I don't need. Can't say I'll be picking one up because I won't. Time for the SP-01 Target Shadow I guess.

lowbar
10-23-13, 05:41
You need to decide if you're a collector in search of another piece, or a shooter looking for a tool to do a job. Two different trigger pulls is twice as much work as an SA or DAO gun to learn and master. Stainless is a looks issue, not a performance issue. For the collector that may be important, for the shooter, it has no relevance.

MM

Great way to put it!
I recently made the move from collecting to tools. I sold off my "collectables" and now only keep tools for specific jobs around.

Petrov
10-23-13, 09:03
I have a B and an SP01 and the reset is marginally longer than my Shadows.

Timed shooting standards and my ability to run the same tempo splits do not change between guns...

Thats odd, my PCR has a reset so long that I can see my sights move up and down as I let it out till reset, but than again I have small hands and that probably affects it.

KTR03
10-23-13, 10:40
Couldn't find the price on the site. Last I recall, these things were stupid (like Sig 210/custom 1911) type money. Not sure what they bring to the table if you are looking for a weapon. Now if you are looking for a collectible, the triggers are pretty amazing, for a da/sa.

D

Magsz
10-23-13, 12:25
Sooo....

If you're a gunfighter and a snake eating badass you only use striker fired guns?

You lack trigger control if you cant shoot a DA/SA pistol well.

Even with nine and ten pound double action pulls, sig's out of the box are generally SMOOTH as can be and quite easy to shoot. Again, if you cannot shoot a double action pistol well and you THINK that it requires an additional skill set you are flat out wrong. Trigger control is trigger control, period.

The sphinx pistols IMO are a waste f time because they weight 40+ ounces unless they have an aluminum framed model which i havent looked into. The website lacks information on the pistol lines individual models.

WickedWillis
10-23-13, 12:33
Sooo....

If you're a gunfighter and a snake eating badass you only use striker fired guns?

You lack trigger control if you cant shoot a DA/SA pistol well.

Even with nine and ten pound double action pulls, sig's out of the box are generally SMOOTH as can be and quite easy to shoot. Again, if you cannot shoot a double action pistol well and you THINK that it requires an additional skill set you are flat out wrong. Trigger control is trigger control, period.

The sphinx pistols IMO are a waste f time because they weight 40+ ounces unless they have an aluminum framed model which i havent looked into. The website lacks information on the pistol lines individual models.

Precisely. You nailed it with trigger control is trigger control period. You should be comfortable on a DA/SA platform regardless of what your EDC is, because there may be a time in a bad situation where you can only get to a DA/SA. Proficiency trumps platform. But the guy saying above the DA/SA have no advantages, or are outdated is extremely irresponsible. Some of the most reliable handguns in the world are DA/SA.

TiroFijo
10-23-13, 12:36
In the link of the OP, you can pick a model (for example: black 9 mm DA/SA), and it has a top frame made of aluminum with the grip part made of polymer (I wonder how strong is the interface between the two), weight 28.9 oz.

It is an almost straight CZ 75 clone, but the ambi decocker moves down forward.

Mysteryman
10-23-13, 13:29
Sooo....

If you're a gunfighter and a snake eating badass you only use striker fired guns?

You lack trigger control if you cant shoot a DA/SA pistol well.

Even with nine and ten pound double action pulls, sig's out of the box are generally SMOOTH as can be and quite easy to shoot. Again, if you cannot shoot a double action pistol well and you THINK that it requires an additional skill set you are flat out wrong. Trigger control is trigger control, period.

The sphinx pistols IMO are a waste f time because they weight 40+ ounces unless they have an aluminum framed model which i havent looked into. The website lacks information on the pistol lines individual models.

Please show me and the rest here where I said I was incapable of running a DA/SA gun? Trigger control is key, and a DA/SA gun has TWO SEPARATE trigger pulls that you must learn. Under stress, the long DA is going to suck. The potential to then slap the trigger in SA is a very real problem, as is poor finger placement. Again, this is under stress and not at a safe range with stationary targets in a well lit environment. I know plenty of folks who can run their DA/SA guns well, but why run a gun that requires more practice to master? Why not run the simplest system you can find and focus on what's important which is making hits?

You're right, at 40 oz its a fat pig which is another reason why its a non starter.


Precisely. You nailed it with trigger control is trigger control period. You should be comfortable on a DA/SA platform regardless of what your EDC is, because there may be a time in a bad situation where you can only get to a DA/SA. Proficiency trumps platform. But the guy saying above the DA/SA have no advantages, or are outdated is extremely irresponsible. Some of the most reliable handguns in the world are DA/SA.

DA/SA guns being "reliable" is not an advantage over what's arguably the most reliable pistol ever built. SIG guns are reliable, so are HK guns and so are Glocks as well as M&P's. Exposed hammers serve no purpose, period. Manual safeties are dumb and unnecessary and as mentioned a DA/SA gun is far from optimal as far as firing systems are concerned.

MM

Magsz
10-23-13, 13:39
The website wont let me click on anything so i dont know if it is a browser issue. AT 28 ounces, that's not bad but any steel framed 40 ounce gun is a non starter for ME. Other's may disagree.

The comments made by me were generalized, not necessarily directed at one person. Everyone slaps the trigger to some degree as there are a few different definitions of trigger slap.

One could argue that if your finger leaves the face of the trigger you are slapping.

The other side of the fence is that a slap is a controlled press so long as it is straight to the rear.

Trigger control is trigger control and having two "different trigger presses" as a contrary argument is merely a construct of the minds of people that are afraid of a heavier trigger pull. Press the trigger straight to the rear...period.

TiroFijo
10-23-13, 13:40
Hey MM, I take it that you don't like DA/SA, understood. Now, that does everyone else must feel the same, or are we allowed to disagree? Some people like a first shot DA looong 10+ lb as an added safety, as everything in life there are compromises.

BTW, this pistol is 28.9 oz, NOT 40 ;)

Petrov
10-23-13, 13:48
Please show me and the rest here where I said I was incapable of running a DA/SA gun? Trigger control is key, and a DA/SA gun has TWO SEPARATE trigger pulls that you must learn. Under stress, the long DA is going to suck. The potential to then slap the trigger in SA is a very real problem, as is poor finger placement. Again, this is under stress and not at a safe range with stationary targets in a well lit environment. I know plenty of folks who can run their DA/SA guns well, but why run a gun that requires more practice to master? Why not run the simplest system you can find and focus on what's important which is making hits?

You're right, at 40 oz its a fat pig which is another reason why its a non starter.



DA/SA guns being "reliable" is not an advantage over what's arguably the most reliable pistol ever built. SIG guns are reliable, so are HK guns and so are Glocks as well as M&P's. Exposed hammers serve no purpose, period. Manual safeties are dumb and unnecessary and as mentioned a DA/SA gun is far from optimal as far as firing systems are concerned.

MM


Yes the SA trigger pull is much lighter, I am not a high drag low speed guy. You already shot some one once, are you worried about shooting them again but by accident this time?
Not trying to be a smart ass, I am here to learn.

Magsz
10-23-13, 14:10
Hey MM, I take it that you don't like DA/SA, understood. Now, that does everyone else must feel the same, or are we allowed to disagree? Some people like a first shot DA looong 10+ lb as an added safety, as everything in life there are compromises.

BTW, this pistol is 28.9 oz, NOT 40 ;)

I also like a hammer fired gun as i carry AIWB. Actually CARRYING a striker fired gun is no issue but for high volume training the hammer gives me peace of mind.

Noted about the weight Tiro. :)

LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-24-13, 02:49
The problem is the DA. Learning two distinct trigger pulls is dumb. The day of DA/SA exposed hammer, manual safety guns is dead. No advantages whatsoever over modern striker fired pistols.

MM


You need to decide if you're a collector in search of another piece, or a shooter looking for a tool to do a job. Two different trigger pulls is twice as much work as an SA or DAO gun to learn and master. Stainless is a looks issue, not a performance issue. For the collector that may be important, for the shooter, it has no relevance.

MM

Those damned Navy SEALs, a whole bunch of "collectors", not a "shooter" in the bunch. DA/SA pistols galore! That collector art piece called the HK45C is no good for anyone looking for a tool to do a job!

Think of all the time they could be saving if they switched to a striker fired gun. Right now they are doing twice as much work when shooting, if only they had striker fired pistols they could do so many more activities.

theblackknight
10-24-13, 03:41
I love Sig's trigger the best out of the DA guns. If only HK could take a hint and make their triggers that good.

MoCop
10-24-13, 04:35
Looks good. Anyone know why the frame is a two piece bolted together unit?

tom frost
10-24-13, 05:43
Looks good. Anyone know why the frame is a two piece bolted together unit?

I too was wondering about the extra horizontal seam above the grip area. Is the frame two pieces?

theblackknight
10-24-13, 08:01
Oh great, another Tangfolio SK2/SP01 Shadow unicorn gun

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Sphinxl.jpg

TiroFijo
10-24-13, 08:16
I too was wondering about the extra horizontal seam above the grip area. Is the frame two pieces?

As said above, the frame rails are aluminum, and the grip area plastic.

tom frost
10-24-13, 08:36
As said above, the frame rails are aluminum, and the grip area plastic.

Crazy. The trigger guard is part of the grip assembly?

TiroFijo
10-24-13, 08:49
Crazy. The trigger guard is part of the grip assembly?

Yes. I don't know how the frame area and trigger guard + grip mate.

http://2323862zru3v2q2fq331fqh87fk.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/KRISS_USA_Sphinx_SDP_High-Capacity_Compact_Pistol_9mm_Parabellum_.40_SW_Caliber__SHOT_Show_2012_Media_Day_1.jpg

tom frost
10-24-13, 09:09
Yes. I don't know how the frame area and trigger guard + grip mate.

http://2323862zru3v2q2fq331fqh87fk.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/KRISS_USA_Sphinx_SDP_High-Capacity_Compact_Pistol_9mm_Parabellum_.40_SW_Caliber__SHOT_Show_2012_Media_Day_1.jpg

That's pretty good, you guessed my next question. Thanks for the info.

Mysteryman
10-25-13, 02:37
Hey MM, I take it that you don't like DA/SA, understood. Now, that does everyone else must feel the same, or are we allowed to disagree? Some people like a first shot DA looong 10+ lb as an added safety, as everything in life there are compromises.

BTW, this pistol is 28.9 oz, NOT 40 ;)

If you're relying on a heavy trigger as "an additional safety" you need to seek professional training. Safety is a state of mind, not a mechanical device. The discipline of keeping your finger off the trigger is all the safety required. Anything else is a self created illusion that will eventually end badly.

And the pistol is still over weight, Glock 19 comes in at 21 oz. A Glock 26 comes in at 26.12 oz.... Loaded.


Yes the SA trigger pull is much lighter, I am not a high drag low speed guy. You already shot some one once, are you worried about shooting them again but by accident this time?
Not trying to be a smart ass, I am here to learn.

Not at all. The problem is that slapping the trigger is not conducive to accurate fire, so the "advantage" of a short and light SA trigger is now lost due to bad form.


I also like a hammer fired gun as i carry AIWB. Actually CARRYING a striker fired gun is no issue but for high volume training the hammer gives me peace of mind.

Noted about the weight Tiro. :)

Peace of mind about what? 5.5/7/8/10/12 pound triggers, it makes no difference. If you're accustomed to whatever weight of trigger your gun has, the potential for a negligent discharge is the same. Keep your finger off the trigger and there's zero risk. Sounds like some here are unsure of their own abilities, lacking in confidence.


Those damned Navy SEALs, a whole bunch of "collectors", not a "shooter" in the bunch. DA/SA pistols galore! That collector art piece called the HK45C is no good for anyone looking for a tool to do a job!

Think of all the time they could be saving if they switched to a striker fired gun. Right now they are doing twice as much work when shooting, if only they had striker fired pistols they could do so many more activities.

Remember, the majority of soldiers SF or not are not gun guys. They're superb athletes that run the gear they're given. In addition, they(SF)train daily so the issue of DA/SA becomes less of an issue. They generally instigate the shooting not reacting to it like you and I would in a defensive situation. High stress, limited to zero training, reaction versus action and a DA/SA gun do not equal greater odds of success. The only aspects you get to control is the training, the gear, and more vigilance with regards to situational awareness. So why handicap yourself with inferior, unproven equipment?

MM

TiroFijo
10-25-13, 06:04
If you're relying on a heavy trigger as "an additional safety" you need to seek professional training. Safety is a state of mind, not a mechanical device. The discipline of keeping your finger off the trigger is all the safety required. Anything else is a self created illusion that will eventually end badly.
MM

Wow! a super pro advice :thank_you2:

There are many studies that point to both trigger pull lenght and weight as effective countermeasures to startle response, sympathetic response, etc. So I don't buy that a 1911 with a 2 lbs trigger, no safety, and 0.1" pull length is as safe running around with lots of stress, bumps, stairs, in the dark, etc. Where a decent compromise is met is subject to debate, and depends on the user and his needs.

I've had my share of training and competition, and I feel comfortable shooting revolvers, DA/SA pistols, glocks, etc. In my opinion, there are pros and cons to all trigger systems and you can learn to shoot them all fast and accurately.

Learning the DA/SA transition is more difficult than the glock trigger, but is not really too difficult.

The Dumb Gun Collector
10-25-13, 07:20
If you're relying on a heavy trigger as "an additional safety" you need to seek professional training. Safety is a state of mind, not a mechanical device.

Oh lawd. No, It is both. The whole idea of a lack of a safety or a heavyweight trigger being no safer that a lightweight is a marketing scheme developed in the 80s to market a certain military pistol that was intended by its designer to be carried chamber empty.

Do I have a Glock 19 with a 5 pound short reset trigger? Yes? Do I imagine it is as safe as my j-frame with a 11 pound trigger? No. That is why revolvers are safe for jacket pocket duty and Glocks go in rigid holsters only.

Magsz
10-25-13, 10:38
Mysteryman....

You're showing a whole hell of a lot of ignorance....

I prefer a hammer fired gun when carrying AIWB because i can THUMB the hammer into the holster. If the hammer moves there is an obstruction whether it be my booger hook because i am un trained or i left my penis in my belt that morning.......

Magic_Salad0892
10-25-13, 11:40
It's only one pull that's different, right? I don't see the big deal, then again I haven't hopped on the Glock bandwagon. Besides, not too many striker-fired pistols come in stainless steel too

Yeah. One trigger pull. Per draw or per engagement.

Also, SS sucks. Carbon steel with nitride treatment like Glocks, Walthers, or HKs is far superior.

Magic_Salad0892
10-25-13, 11:42
Sooo....

If you're a gunfighter and a snake eating badass you only use striker fired guns?

You lack trigger control if you cant shoot a DA/SA pistol well.

Even with nine and ten pound double action pulls, sig's out of the box are generally SMOOTH as can be and quite easy to shoot. Again, if you cannot shoot a double action pistol well and you THINK that it requires an additional skill set you are flat out wrong. Trigger control is trigger control, period.

I don't want to thread drift, as I do agree with you, but I also think that DA/SA has a steeper learning curve, and is harder to maintain proficiency with.


Manual safeties are dumb and unnecessary

I'm going to be simple about this: you are dead wrong.

Working a manual safety on a draw is easy, and safe.

Also, cocked and locked on a SA gun like a 1911, FNX-9, SIG SAO, V1 HK, Beretta SAO, or CZ is insanely fast, and easy. I'm faster with an SAO or Single Action + Safety than I am with a Glock/LEM HK. By far.

And it really doesn't require that much more, if any training. Also provides a degree of safety if somebody tries to grab your gun for any reason (applicable to cops, but not really a civilian).

After carrying Glocks for 4-5 years or so, and switching to carrying a 1911 every day, I can say for sure that I have a higher degree of confidence with this firing system. In terms of speed, safety, and making hits on target.

I still believe that a Glock is a better gun, mind you.

And exposed hammers also provide a degree of safety when holstering. (With DA/SA or LEM guns.)

If you think that manual safeties, or even exposed hammers are obsolete or retarded, then you need to shoot more, and shoot different weapons. Glock may be the best for you, but there are plenty of other "right" ways to do it.

Mysteryman
10-26-13, 01:09
I don't want to thread drift, as I do agree with you, but I also think that DA/SA has a steeper learning curve, and is harder to maintain proficiency with.



I'm going to be simple about this: you are dead wrong.

Working a manual safety on a draw is easy, and safe.

Also, cocked and locked on a SA gun like a 1911, FNX-9, SIG SAO, V1 HK, Beretta SAO, or CZ is insanely fast, and easy. I'm faster with an SAO or Single Action + Safety than I am with a Glock/LEM HK. By far.

And it really doesn't require that much more, if any training. Also provides a degree of safety if somebody tries to grab your gun for any reason (applicable to cops, but not really a civilian).

After carrying Glocks for 4-5 years or so, and switching to carrying a 1911 every day, I can say for sure that I have a higher degree of confidence with this firing system. In terms of speed, safety, and making hits on target.

I still believe that a Glock is a better gun, mind you.

And exposed hammers also provide a degree of safety when holstering. (With DA/SA or LEM guns.)

If you think that manual safeties, or even exposed hammers are obsolete or retarded, then you need to shoot more, and shoot different weapons. Glock may be the best for you, but there are plenty of other "right" ways to do it.

Please explain what a manual safety does that keeping your finger off the trigger doesn't? When you draw a pistol with a manual safety, at some point you must execute yet another movement and disengage said safety. This makes the gun MORE dangerous than striker fired guns specifically Glocks, as their THREE passive safeties are still full engaged, whereas on other pistols they are left with one possibly two safeties remaining.

If the gun leaves the holster, its because I want to put rounds into a threat or target. I want the easiest and fastest motion/action to achieve that goal. Manual safeties and DA/SA triggers only add to the problem, they don't have a positive net effect on your performance. Yes, you can learn your DA/SA and be proficient, but as you said, its a steep learning curve and its not necessary a there are better options. Why waste time and money on learning an inferior system?

As for me, I've shot plenty of guns besides Glocks, they're usable but nowhere near as efficient or practical as a Glock. Manual safeties are designed for those with a lack of confidence in their gun handling abilities. Quality holsters cover the trigger, and solid training and practice keeps your finger off the trigger until sights are on target and the conscious decision to fire has been made. No mechanical device will compensate for poor fundamentals or dangerous practices.

MM

Magsz
10-26-13, 01:22
ROFL!

What exactly is YOUR proficiency level?

You seem to LOVE to denigrate others about THEIR skill levels so im curious as to what exactly you can do or have done with a firearm.

AR's have safeties and people have been removing those in "combat" just fine for years now...

I really fail to see the difference between a long gun and a pistol when it comes to putting sights on a target and pressing a trigger.

Yet again, i will reiterate, trigger control is trigger control, period. There is no such thing as "learning two trigger pulls". Consistent, even pressure, straight to the rear until the gun goes off...it's that simple yet oh so complicated.

Airhasz
10-26-13, 01:48
Has anyone put a price on these yet?

Magic_Salad0892
10-26-13, 05:04
Please explain what a manual safety does that keeping your finger off the trigger doesn't?

Allows a SA gun to be carried safely.


When you draw a pistol with a manual safety, at some point you must execute yet another movement and disengage said safety. This makes the gun MORE dangerous than striker fired guns specifically Glocks, as their THREE passive safeties are still full engaged, whereas on other pistols they are left with one possibly two safeties remaining.

Um. I hate to tell you, but the Glock has a manual safety as well.


If the gun leaves the holster, its because I want to put rounds into a threat or target. I want the easiest and fastest motion/action to achieve that goal. Manual safeties and DA/SA triggers only add to the problem, they don't have a positive net effect on your performance. Yes, you can learn your DA/SA and be proficient, but as you said, its a steep learning curve and its not necessary a there are better options. Why waste time and money on learning an inferior system?

I never said that there were better options. There aren't. There are different options. Remember that after the DA pull, a DA/SA gun is essentially in easy mode. It's much easier to put rounds on target effectively with a full size Beretta in SA mode than it is with an LEM HK, or SIG DAK gun.

Is it better? That's up to the user. For me, a DA/SA gun is better than those DAO setups.

When compared to striker fired guns, they're about equal for different reasons. I prefer striker. I prefer manual safety/SAO over all of them at the moment.


As for me, I've shot plenty of guns besides Glocks, they're usable but nowhere near as efficient or practical as a Glock.

Better tell all those dudes carrying HKs, and 1911s into combat.


Manual safeties are designed for those with a lack of confidence in their gun handling abilities.

Way to insult me. I hope you feel vindicated. Also, most of the SMEs on this board, and many military/LEO guys have carried pistols with manual safeties into combat, even though they had other options.


Quality holsters cover the trigger, and solid training and practice keeps your finger off the trigger until sights are on target and the conscious decision to fire has been made. No mechanical device will compensate for poor fundamentals or dangerous practices.

They don't compensate for poor fundamentals. They compliment good fundamentals.

tom frost
10-26-13, 07:55
*

Working a manual safety on a draw is easy, and safe.


This is absolutely true. It is also not excessively time consuming to disengage a thumb safety upon drawing.

Tzed250
10-26-13, 08:36
It sure would be nice if this thread were to get back on the topic of Sphinx pistols.

tom frost
10-26-13, 09:05
Nevermind

Scrubber3
10-26-13, 09:29
To the original OP, thanks for sharing the link. I'm fond of these as I am of all CZ offerings. Don't mind the slew of A-holes that seem to travel in herds ready to bash the next gun that isn't there's.

To the A-holes, why in the hell does everyone have to piss on other people's fires? I get it, you don't like it and someone shoots different than you or has a different mindset. Get over it! If someone is spouting objectionable inaccurate information then by all means, tactfully correct them. If not, well stop buffing out your chest and acting like a damn baboon. How about being a positive reflection on M4C?

The Dumb Gun Collector
10-26-13, 13:43
They look to be very Sigpro/250 influenced. In steel it is probably a breeze to shoot fast.

SeriousStudent
10-26-13, 14:22
To the original OP, thanks for sharing the link. I'm fond of these as I am of all CZ offerings. Don't mind the slew of A-holes that seem to travel in herds ready to bash the next gun that isn't there's.

To the A-holes, why in the hell does everyone have to piss on other people's fires? I get it, you don't like it and someone shoots different than you or has a different mindset. Get over it! If someone is spouting objectionable inaccurate information then by all means, tactfully correct them. If not, well stop buffing out your chest and acting like a damn baboon. How about being a positive reflection on M4C?

Great advice from a newer member of the team here. Thanks for posting that.

Wise advice, folks.

SPD
10-26-13, 14:42
Please explain what a manual safety does that keeping your finger off the trigger doesn't? When you draw a pistol with a manual safety, at some point you must execute yet another movement and disengage said safety. This makes the gun MORE dangerous than striker fired guns specifically Glocks, as their THREE passive safeties are still full engaged, whereas on other pistols they are left with one possibly two safeties remaining.

If the gun leaves the holster, its because I want to put rounds into a threat or target. I want the easiest and fastest motion/action to achieve that goal. Manual safeties and DA/SA triggers only add to the problem, they don't have a positive net effect on your performance. Yes, you can learn your DA/SA and be proficient, but as you said, its a steep learning curve and its not necessary a there are better options. Why waste time and money on learning an inferior system?

As for me, I've shot plenty of guns besides Glocks, they're usable but nowhere near as efficient or practical as a Glock. Manual safeties are designed for those with a lack of confidence in their gun handling abilities. Quality holsters cover the trigger, and solid training and practice keeps your finger off the trigger until sights are on target and the conscious decision to fire has been made. No mechanical device will compensate for poor fundamentals or dangerous practices.

MM

OK, who let Alaskapopo back on the forum?

Seriously dude, get over your self and all your super tacticool shooting skills.

Mysteryman
10-27-13, 01:36
ROFL!

What exactly is YOUR proficiency level?
What difference does my proficiency make? We;re talking straight logic here, its like math, you either get the answer or you're wrong and you don't have to be a math prof to follow along. Regardless, I will tell you that I have attended several courses, rifle, pistol, and shotgun courses. It has been said that less than 1% of all firearms owners ever seek/attend/participate in any professional training, so its not a stretch to presume that many if not most don't know what they don't know.
You seem to LOVE to denigrate others about THEIR skill levels so im curious as to what exactly you can do or have done with a firearm.

AR's have safeties and people have been removing those in "combat" just fine for years now...
Here's a prime example of not knowing what you don't know. Rifles are not carried in a holster, the trigger is exposed at all times and a slip/fall usually results in a loss of control over said rifle. The MANUAL safety is simply an insurance policy in the event you lose control of the firearm. Your rifle is also in hand ready to be pressed into service, your pistol is not. With your hand in position to disengage the safety/selector and the rifle already halfway to being mounted, the advantage is in your favor. A holstered pistol is a long slow process by comparison to access.

I really fail to see the difference between a long gun and a pistol when it comes to putting sights on a target and pressing a trigger.

Yet again, i will reiterate, trigger control is trigger control, period. There is no such thing as "learning two trigger pulls". Consistent, even pressure, straight to the rear until the gun goes off...it's that simple yet oh so complicated.
Example number two. Tell me, is 4 the same as 11, or 5.5 or 6 or 8? Are any of these numbers the same? No, they're all different. They're just numbers, but those numbers represent common trigger pull weights. A long 12lb DA trigger pull is different than a short 4lb SA trigger pull. Different weights, different lengths of trigger pull. Clearly, they're TWO different feels for the same operation.


This is absolutely true. It is also not excessively time consuming to disengage a thumb safety upon drawing.
Time consuming, not really. The potential to forget or fail to disengage a manual safety, yes.


Allows a SA gun to be carried safely.

Why carry an SA gun if its so dangerous? The reason SA guns are so popular is because of their short and light triggers. So why not run a gun with a safe design and a consistent trigger pull?

Um. I hate to tell you, but the Glock has a manual safety as well.

No they don't. Glocks have 3 internal PASSIVE safeties, all of which do not require a conscious effort from the user to either engage or disengage. A thumb safety is a manual or active safety which requires your conscious effort to operate.

I never said that there were better options. There aren't. There are different options. Remember that after the DA pull, a DA/SA gun is essentially in easy mode. It's much easier to put rounds on target effectively with a full size Beretta in SA mode than it is with an LEM HK, or SIG DAK gun.

You're right, an HK LEM trigger or a SIG DAK are garbage triggers. neither has a definitive reset and the length of pull is atrocious. Firing rapidly and consistently is difficult to impossible. An SA gun is easier because the trigger pull is LIGHTER AND SHORTER. So why run a DA/SA gun that offers you the benefit of not having to f**k with a manual safety, only to deal with two different trigger pulls? You could run an SA gun, but then you have to deal with the safety in exchange for a single consistent trigger pull. The answer is a striker fired DAO gun with a respectable trigger, and Glock is that answer. The M&P isn't bad but the trigger lacks a firm reset and is a long pull.
Is it better? That's up to the user. For me, a DA/SA gun is better than those DAO setups.
Which is better is not a subjective argument, its an objective debate revolving around logic. A pistol with a single consistent trigger pull that lacks user input to make ready to fire WHILE STILL BEING SAFE, is a better platform than any combination of lesser qualities. Add in the low parts count, the low bore axis, reduced weight, the extra 2 rounds over several competing makes, the reliability track record, the interchangeable magazines between like calibre guns and the identical manual of arms across the entire line and I'd say there's plenty of facts to support which make is better than another
When compared to striker fired guns, they're about equal for different reasons. I prefer striker. I prefer manual safety/SAO over all of them at the moment.



Better tell all those dudes carrying HKs, and 1911s into combat.
Don't forget, a lot of professionals are not gun guys and carry what they're given. They also train a lot more than the average joe(SF that is) as it is their job.


Way to insult me. I hope you feel vindicated. Also, most of the SMEs on this board, and many military/LEO guys have carried pistols with manual safeties into combat, even though they had other options.

I don't aim to insult anyone, I just tell it as it is. Only the guilty feel insulted by comments by others. I know plenty of MIL and LE folks and have dealt with many more. Very few could shoot worth a damn. Carrying a rifle in a far away land or patrolling the streets does not make ones opinion more valid. I mean no offence by that. I respect those who do those nasty and less than forgiving jobs, but ones vocation does not make them an expert or correct by default.

They don't compensate for poor fundamentals. They compliment good fundamentals.
Please explain how a manual safety or a DA/SA trigger compliments fundamentals? If you can keep your finger off the trigger then a manual safety is not needed. If you can apply proper trigger control and work the reset, then an SA trigger isn't needed.


In the bold folks.

MM

Magsz
10-27-13, 10:55
Holy crap...lol.

You do realize that pistols come out of holsters and stay out of holsters for extended periods of time...right? You do realize that the sling is your rifles "holster" right?

Rifles have safeties because NONE of them have drop safeties and in particular the AR15 has a free floating firing pin...

There are very few mechanical safeties that impede the use of a firearm, the GOOD ones merely offer SECURITY and that has NOTHING to do with the actual employment of the weapon.

This time around i question YOUR confidence. If you're slowed down or you cannot operate a safety you clearly do not understand its use or have some sort of brain defect.

Ah well, its cool man, you've attended training courses, you're clearly an expert because you know firearms Maths. Can i sign up for one of your courses Tactical Joe? Is Yeager your AI?

Getting back to the original topic, how many rounds do you have on a DA/SA platform? Particularly a CZ variant?

To add a little bit of actual information to this thread i will offer the following:

When transitioning from my Glocks to my CZ75's i started posting the following numbers.

My normal draw times:

IDPA down zero at 10 yards

Glock: 1.35 from AIWB concealed. This is consistent.

CZ PO1: 1.45 from AIWB concealed. This is consistent and i retain just as much control on my first shot. It took me about 4k rounds to get here.

I believe the .10 slower draw time is due to a mental block but to ME this is statistically insignificant as i have 200k rounds through Glocks and 4328 through CZ pattern pistols.

On the other side of the fence i can run the P01 faster due to the lighter single action trigger weight and shorter trigger stroke. On average i hover around .22-.28 controlled splits on the Glocks at ten yards on an IDPA target.

With the P01, even with the shorter sight radius i can get down below .2...

There are pluses and minuses to every system. Authoritatively saying that one is better than the other is ignorant or better yet, its just stupid.

If these pistols prove to be reliable, at 28 ounces they're not a bad carry option for those of us that LIKE that sort of thing.

beschatten
10-27-13, 13:02
If you're relying on a heavy trigger as "an additional safety" you need to seek professional training. Safety is a state of mind, not a mechanical device. The discipline of keeping your finger off the trigger is all the safety required. Anything else is a self created illusion that will eventually end badly.

And the pistol is still over weight, Glock 19 comes in at 21 oz. A Glock 26 comes in at 26.12 oz.... Loaded.



Not at all. The problem is that slapping the trigger is not conducive to accurate fire, so the "advantage" of a short and light SA trigger is now lost due to bad form.



Peace of mind about what? 5.5/7/8/10/12 pound triggers, it makes no difference. If you're accustomed to whatever weight of trigger your gun has, the potential for a negligent discharge is the same. Keep your finger off the trigger and there's zero risk. Sounds like some here are unsure of their own abilities, lacking in confidence.



Remember, the majority of soldiers SF or not are not gun guys. They're superb athletes that run the gear they're given. In addition, they(SF)train daily so the issue of DA/SA becomes less of an issue. They generally instigate the shooting not reacting to it like you and I would in a defensive situation. High stress, limited to zero training, reaction versus action and a DA/SA gun do not equal greater odds of success. The only aspects you get to control is the training, the gear, and more vigilance with regards to situational awareness. So why handicap yourself with inferior, unproven equipment?

MM

It's like a James Yeagar version 2.0! :haha:

In all honesty, what the f**k is an overweight pistol? I guess I fed my 1911 too many Jolly Ranchers.

Magic_Salad0892
10-28-13, 13:23
In all honesty, what the f**k is an overweight pistol?

Revolvers. :p

Magic_Salad0892
10-28-13, 13:45
Why carry an SA gun if its so dangerous?

Being dangerous is the exact reason I carry it.


The reason SA guns are so popular is because of their short and light triggers. So why not run a gun with a safe design and a consistent trigger pull?

Because a 1911/FN/CZ is safe. And "consistent" doesn't equal "better". Like I said. After the first shot, the gun is in easy mode.


No they don't. Glocks have 3 internal PASSIVE safeties, all of which do not require a conscious effort from the user to either engage or disengage. A thumb safety is a manual or active safety which requires your conscious effort to operate.

The trigger requires conscious effort to operate, does it not?


You're right, an HK LEM trigger or a SIG DAK are garbage triggers.

V4 LEM is actually a really good trigger. It gives the operator a margin of error, both when reholstering, and when engaging. I can shoot a LEM trigger quite quick actually. .29 splits. Not as good as some others, but I'm not an expert.


neither has a definitive reset and the length of pull is atrocious. Firing rapidly and consistently is difficult to impossible.

None of this is true. Except for the length of pull on the DAK. That sucks. Firing consistently with both systems is very easy. Especially light LEM. Has much better reset, and the pull is lightened to about 5 lbs. It just has a little more take-up than a Glock trigger.


An SA gun is easier because the trigger pull is LIGHTER AND SHORTER. So why run a DA/SA gun that offers you the benefit of not having to f**k with a manual safety, only to deal with two different trigger pulls?

It's a trade off. If the user doesn't like manual safeties, but wants a single action pistol, then that is an option. I can shoot either/or. I prefer SAO. But I'm not particularly slow with any of the systems, except for DAK. For some reason.


You could run an SA gun, but then you have to deal with the safety in exchange for a single consistent trigger pull.

Remember that the safety in most cases acts as a shelf for your strong thumb thumb so that you don't accidently activate the slide lock and cause pre-mature lockbacks, or prevent lockbacks. You don't have to "deal" with anything because your thumb would be in that position anyway.


The answer is a striker fired DAO gun with a respectable trigger, and Glock is that answer.

For most users, in most places, under most conditions. Yes. But it's not perfect, or great for everybody. Shoot a Walther PPQ.


The M&P isn't bad but the trigger lacks a firm reset and is a long pull.

Shoot an M&P .45 Pro with Apex kit. You'll consider spending a few hundred.


Which is better is not a subjective argument, its an objective debate revolving around logic.[QUOTE]

I used to think the same way, and it's the same train of thought that leads me to say that the Glock/Walther is generally the best choice for anybody out there. If you can't shoot either pistol well, then you can't shoot.

However, like I said. Neither is perfect. I'd prefer the Glock to have a manual safety, and a shorter trigger pull. The Walther isn't bad, but once again, I'd like a manual safety. It provides security during the draw, and re-holster.

[QUOTE]A pistol with a single consistent trigger pull that lacks user input to make ready to fire WHILE STILL BEING SAFE, is a better platform than any combination of lesser qualities.[QUOTE]

Needing user input is the exact reason a lot of people carry pistols with manual safeties. Also, operating the trigger IS user input. It's not better. It is different.

[QUOTE]Add in the low parts count, the low bore axis, reduced weight, the extra 2 rounds over several competing makes, the reliability track record, the interchangeable magazines between like calibre guns and the identical manual of arms across the entire line and I'd say there's plenty of facts to support which make is better than another

I already said that Glocks are the best option out there for most people. However:

Quality control problems as of late.
Not as accurate as other pistols, depending on how lucky you are.
No ambi controls.
No manual safety.


Don't forget, a lot of professionals are not gun guys and carry what they're given. They also train a lot more than the average joe(SF that is) as it is their job.

I am aware of that. But like I said, these are units that can purchase any gun they want. And it should occur to you that BECAUSE they train a lot, they came to those conclusions.


I know plenty of MIL and LE folks and have dealt with many more. Very few could shoot worth a damn.

True. But I wasn't referring to them. I was referring to units that shoot a lot.


Carrying a rifle in a far away land or patrolling the streets does not make ones opinion more valid.

Shooting a lot does.


Please explain how a manual safety or a DA/SA trigger compliments fundamentals?

Manual Safety - My proficiency allows me to run an SAO trigger fast, accurately, and without pulling shots most of the time. The manual safety allows me to keep my thumb away from the slide stop, as I have long fingers/thumbs, provides security during drawing/holstering/engaging. What if a target I was going to engage suddenly becomes a no shoot for whatever reason? With a manual safety, I have a tiny bit more time to make sure. It requires conscious decision making.

DA/SA -

SA trigger pulls. Without manual safety. I can thumb the hammer during reholsters. Also, a good DA trigger isn't hard to shoot at all, and it's not like my finger comes all the way off the trigger between shots anyway.


If you can keep your finger off the trigger then a manual safety is not needed.

No, but it's nice to have, and I wouldn't carry an SA gun without one.


If you can apply proper trigger control and work the reset, then an SA trigger isn't needed.

You will always be faster with shorter lighter triggers. And more accurate.


Time consuming, not really. The potential to forget or fail to disengage a manual safety, yes.

Does not require that much training to get past it. I had it down in like a day.

Magic_Salad0892
10-28-13, 13:45
With the P01, even with the shorter sight radius i can get down below .2...


That's awesome.

Todd762
10-28-13, 15:15
The Sphinx looks like a high quality firearm. I haven't seen one other than on the Internet but I did contact Kriss, their importer. It's nice to see some precision engineering and workmanship in an age of mass production. If you don't like it and don't have feedback based on personal experience then why would you bash it?

I am going to take a look at one. It's my money and if I like it, I will buy it. I appreciate quality made products and excellent customer service, hopefully this fits into both of those categories.

To the original poster, I believe Mike Searson did a review in an issue of Recoil.

Magic_Salad0892
10-28-13, 15:20
The Sphinx looks like a high quality firearm. I haven't seen one other than on the Internet but I did contact Kriss, their importer. It's nice to see some precision engineering and workmanship in an age of mass production. If you don't like it and don't have feedback based on personal experience then why would you bash it?

Agreed. If they make threaded barrels for it, it'd be great.

I wonder if somebody could mill in Novak sight cuts to use 1911 sights on it.

Scrubber3
10-28-13, 18:05
Agreed. If they make threaded barrels for it, it'd be great.

I wonder if somebody could mill in Novak sight cuts to use 1911 sights on it.

Clink on the OPs link. Pick one of the models shown and you'll see two available. One being a model without a threaded barrel and the other with a threaded barrel. :)

Magic_Salad0892
10-28-13, 18:30
Clink on the OPs link. Pick one of the models shown and you'll see two available. One being a model without a threaded barrel and the other with a threaded barrel. :)

Derp. Thanks.

Also, the extractor looks weird.

Tacti-square
10-28-13, 20:16
Agreed. If they make threaded barrels for it, it'd be great.

I wonder if somebody could mill in Novak sight cuts to use 1911 sights on it.

And if 1911 sights aren't your thing, Defiance makes custom fiber optic sights specifically for this gun (as well as Glocks).

"The front sight features an aiming halo point composed of pigmented optical fiber (light collector), protected by an aluminum sleeve and self-powered laser cut Trigalighttm, while the rear sights feature two tritium dots configured in a "U" shape."

http://www.defiance-ops.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=90&Itemid=335

trinydex
10-29-13, 12:31
is this the company that made that pistol with a slide forward lock for silent suppressed fire "for assasins"

ruchik
10-29-13, 15:20
They look good, but I have to say I'm not a fan of the DA/SA platform. But that's just because my hands are tiny (men's extra small gloves). On every single DA/SA gun I've ever held, I can only contact the trigger with the very tip of my trigger finger. Absolutely no leverage whatsoever, and end up shaking and pulling the gun every which way. So if you're not good with DA, it could really be a hardware limitation, not software.

Bigun
11-04-13, 03:47
Thats odd, my PCR has a reset so long that I can see my sights move up and down as I let it out till reset, but than again I have small hands and that probably affects it.That can be easily fixed contact Cajun Gun Works. My P-01 has their full boat package and a truly phenominal trigger pull in both SA and DA. Best part is you can do the work yourself. it really is that simple.

theblackknight
11-04-13, 07:51
Please explain what a manual safety does that keeping your finger off the trigger doesn't? When you draw a pistol with a manual safety, at some point you must execute yet another movement and disengage said safety. This makes the gun MORE dangerous than striker fired guns specifically Glocks, as their THREE passive safeties are still full engaged, whereas on other pistols they are left with one possibly two safeties remaining.

If the gun leaves the holster, its because I want to put rounds into a threat or target. I want the easiest and fastest motion/action to achieve that goal. Manual safeties and DA/SA triggers only add to the problem, they don't have a positive net effect on your performance. Yes, you can learn your DA/SA and be proficient, but as you said, its a steep learning curve and its not necessary a there are better options. Why waste time and money on learning an inferior system?

As for me, I've shot plenty of guns besides Glocks, they're usable but nowhere near as efficient or practical as a Glock. Manual safeties are designed for those with a lack of confidence in their gun handling abilities. Quality holsters cover the trigger, and solid training and practice keeps your finger off the trigger until sights are on target and the conscious decision to fire has been made. No mechanical device will compensate for poor fundamentals or dangerous practices.

MM



The fairytale that this or that trigger is “the best” comes from people who would have you believe if you have the “right gun” it makes a big difference or can make up for poor training. Having shot the Beretta M9 extensively in SF (and having heard every complaint about it under the sun)I have long since learned that double action is not obsolete, outdated or undesirable but contrary to common myths and misconceptions it is simply different. Case in point: with a Beretta 92F-pattern gun (actually an Elite II), Ben Stoeger won the 2011 USPSA Production class National Championship. -Mike Pannone