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19852
11-28-13, 13:04
Given a choice which is a better choice overall?
A lightly used HK P-30, the DA/SA version or a new blue label Gen 4 or 3 G19?

I have experience with the DA/SA system with the Beretta M9 and lots 'o time behind DA revolvers. I also use a Browning P-35 from time to time.

I believe the issues with the Gen 4 Glocks to be largely resolved by this time. The HK is a proven quality. My primary use is carry with some competition thrown in for fun. I recently rented a Glock 17 and found it easy to transition from my Browning. The HK has a long heavy DA pull which doesn't deter me but the SA has a long take up to a light let off. I think the HK more accurate out at 25 yards. The HK already has Trijicon HD sights.

What would be your choice and why?

Thanks!

captdreifus
11-28-13, 13:18
Given a choice which is a better choice overall?
A lightly used HK P-30, the DA/SA version or a new blue label Gen 4 or 3 G19?

I have experience with the DA/SA system with the Beretta M9 and lots 'o time behind DA revolvers. I also use a Browning P-35 from time to time.

I believe the issues with the Gen 4 Glocks to be largely resolved by this time. The HK is a proven quality. My primary use is carry with some competition thrown in for fun. I recently rented a Glock 17 and found it easy to transition from my Browning. The HK has a long heavy DA pull which doesn't deter me but the SA has a long take up to a light let off. I think the HK more accurate out at 25 yards. The HK already has Trijicon HD sights.

What would be your choice and why?

Thanks!

G19 for me. More aftermarket support and ease of maintenannce. Mags are cheaper as well.

Biggy
11-28-13, 13:23
From the ask the SME section of this forum : https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?140765-which-modern-pistol

Five_Point_Five_Six
11-28-13, 14:14
P30 then I'd convert it to light LEM.

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plouffedaddy
11-28-13, 15:29
G19. It's idiot proof which I need from time to time. :D

MountainRaven
11-28-13, 15:34
I like both, I have owned both.

But I like the P30L (with light LEM) just a little bit better than the G19 or the P30.

lunchbox
11-28-13, 15:35
G19 if nothing else for accessibility to parts and accessories.

Guns-up.50
11-28-13, 15:46
G19 would be my choice much cheaper better after market, I like the p30 but always talk myself out of them. If I did a p30 it would only be a LEM but until mags drop in price ill stick with glocks.not to mention getting all the other kit for it.
Also a g19 is more than accurate at 25m

Swstock
11-28-13, 17:36
To be fair dollar to dollar... The question should be p30 or 2 g19s.

ralph
11-28-13, 18:14
P-30 with Light LEM..and let's be honest here, the difference in price for mags isn't THAT much...typically $7-10. Grant has P-30 mags for $35.. I bought mine this spring from HKUSA, for $33. I certainly wouldn't let a few dollars difference in the price of mags, deter me from a higher quality, more accurate pistol, with no known issues, unlike some Glocks...

Voodoo_Man
11-28-13, 18:21
When the answer has a possibility of being a G19 in it, then the answer is always a G19.

RMiller
11-28-13, 18:39
Glock. Parts are cheap. Parts are plenty.


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The Dumb Gun Collector
11-28-13, 19:09
P30. No need to worry about parts.

Plumber237
11-28-13, 19:30
I'll throw my .02 out there, I am in no way some high speed badass or anything, but I've owned both and shot 2k+ rounds through both (much more through a 19 though). I will say up front that I am biased towards glock, I learned on 17's with hundreds of thousands of rounds through them (LE training guns). I'll break it down to pros and cons (my opinion).
HK P30:
Pros- very smooth/light recoil, customizeable grip size, "paddle" mag release, won't malfunction shooting without a mag in (1911 extractor test), and crazy high round count before parts breakages ( pistol training.com test).
Cons- squishy grip panels (never felt solid to me, could have been a fluke on mine), trough under the trigger would rub my trigger finger raw, I would short stroke the trigger reset often (on me, being more used to glock), less availability of holsters and sights (much better now than when I owned it), and higher bore axis (being used to glock I always pointed low on presentation).

Glock 19:
Pros- damn near indestructible finish, availability of parts & accessories, 15, 17, & 33 round mags all work in it (replacement floor plates/springs that add rounds as well), you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a glocksmith, many brands offer custom parts (vickers/tangodown, lone wolf, apex, etc), gen 4 issues have been solved with newest spring/ejector (atleast for all the 19's I've seen).
Cons- push button mag release, only backstraps for customizing grip (or stippling), slide bite for certain people's hands (fixed for me with new medium beavertail OEM backstrap :)), and often malfunctions when shooting without a mag in (1911 extractor test).

This is what I've personally experienced with owning and shooting both quite a bit. I'm no expert, but I know that user input is helpful, even hopefully biased input. So my vote goes with glock 19, which for me personally was a better fit.

ralph
11-28-13, 19:41
P30. No need to worry about parts.

Pretty much how I feel, Everyone raves how Glock parts are available everywhere,, even at the 7-11,:p The way I see it, you have to break something first, and with most HK's I've seen, that's not going happen for a looong time....

Meplat
11-28-13, 20:17
I really, really wanted to fall in love with the G19. I like Glock pistols, I do, and I think they've earned a very strong reputation for a good reason. Very minimalist with focus on function before anything else. At least that is what everyone told me. All the pros seemed to love theirs and rave about how it was the perfect pistol for most people. It was reliable, accurate, not quite a full size, yet not quite a compact. And then I bought my first G19, a Gen 3, in 2011, right at the height of their problems and the pistol I had was a nightmare. BTF just about every other round, brass, steel, mil-surp, Winchester, Remington, defense ammo, etc. My Oakleys had no less than 8-10 good dings in the lenses right over the eyes within 2 range sessions and my forehead had a couple red marks from being slapped with hot brass. And I had more than a few FTE problems. I contacted Glock and the people I spoke to were, in all honesty, complete dicks. I tend to be very polite and try to convey myself with respect to others, these people both treated me like I was a moron and acted as if I wasted their time. I asked if I could get a new ejector and extractor, as research I had done led me to believe that was the problem, they basically told me they would not send the parts out, I had to send it in on warranty. I still don't understand this because at the time I read on the forums more than a few people who had no problem getting the new (at the time) parts.

So, I waited. Then the Apex extractor came out. It helped, but the problem was not altogether solved and I still had the same issues, just less often, but it still annoyed me to no end when it happened. I put the G19 away for a while, disappointed, and went back to shooting my M&P and my 1911 for a while. Then I got an offer at a gun show to trade my old G19 and get $300 off for a new G4 G17, which I did. I had hoped this would be the ticket, since many people online were insisting that the Gen 4 Glocks were devoid of the issue. Went to the range the first time and no problems, but I only shot 50 rounds. Next time I came back with about 200 rounds and, surprise, BTF all day.

I sold my G4 G17 at the beginning of October, and at this point I don't think I will ever buy a Glock product again between the poor performance of their current offerings and the very poor CS I experienced, at least not until they have built their reputation back up to where it seemed to be before the late gen 3/gen 4 period. Again, I *really* wanted to be a G19 fanboy like all the other guys, and no matter how much I tried, it always seemed to be a problem. I picked up a P30V1 about a week or two later and after about 600 rounds so far, I haven't had an issue so far. Yes, it was nearly double the cost of the Glock, and that is a big con, but for the headache I had with Glock, I wish I had of gone with H&K in the first place.

TAZ
11-28-13, 20:23
Everything can break, even HK's so the availability of parts is never a bad thing. Owned and carried both, still do the P30. IMO both will serve well. New magazine prices are almost the same, although Glock is still easier to lay hands upon.

Get the one you shoot best if price isn't an issue. If the initial price for the gun and some accessories puts you in a bind for practice or classes then get the g19 if you shoot it well.


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ralph
11-28-13, 20:45
Metplat's experience's to a degree mirror mine with the Gen 3 G19 I had, I liked it, but 2ejectors, 3 extractors (including Apex's) later, and still it wouldn't run properly.. Gave up and sold it at that point. Dug out a older P-2000 I had in the safe, (light LEM gun) learned to shoot it, and later bought a P-30(also light lem), and then a HK45ct (converted to light LEM). I honestly don't know if Glock got the extractor issues fixed or not, But that doesn't matter to me.. I lost confidence in Glock, and I still don't trust them. Sure the HK's cost more but, they worked right out of the box. and that means much more to me than parts availability or how less expensive mags are.

Guns-up.50
11-28-13, 20:52
The p30 is a fine pistol I like them and would not hesitate to own or run one. Honestly I will likely add one to my collection one day. However is it worth 2x the money? I don't see it. A g19 will handle everthing from ccw, comp to duty at 1/2 the cost . They are both good its also unfair to assume all glocks don't run based.on some. If we are being honest there are many more reliable glocks than not. The answer should be how much do you want to spend? Both are good choices

Biggy
11-28-13, 20:58
I wonder how many P30 owners will dump their present pistols if H&K came out with a P30 pistol that had a decent striker fired PPQ type trigger ? I suspect more than a few would, and the reason why would be obvious. IMHO, overall the H&K P30 is the best non striker fired 9mm pistol currently on the market, it feels great in the hand, is quite accurate, handles flawlessly and is about as reliable as you’d want a handgun to be. It lives up to H&Ks legacy of building excellently crafted, reliable firearms with mediocre triggers. Also, anything man made, can and will break at some point, no matter who's name is on it. So having easy access to or having a few spare replacement parts on hand, doesn't seem like a bad idea to me.

Pappabear
11-28-13, 21:01
Owned both, still on the P30L. Its really a personal opinion but my personal opinion is the P30 is insanely accurate. The fit and finish on the mags and the slide are remarkable. The mags cost more but they reek of quality and the gun runs like a sewing machine. No guns feed and cycle like HK's, they are unique in this respect. There is just and effortless smoothness to them which partly explains the reliability. The grip fits the hand like no other. Many trigger configurations to choose from. I like the DA/SA with safety and decocker which can be run like a 1911. But I just bought a P30 Light LEM to try that trigger type.

I liked my G19. Only thing I didn't like was the grip angle.

Five_Point_Five_Six
11-28-13, 21:03
P30. No need to worry about parts.

This. It's amazing the amount of people who act like HK parts are made of Unicorn tears and impossible to find.

Five_Point_Five_Six
11-28-13, 21:05
I wonder how many P30 owners would dump their present pistols if H&K came out with a P30 pistol that had a decent striker fired PPQ type trigger ?

I would take a P30 LEM over a PPQ any day of the week.

Guns-up.50
11-28-13, 21:13
This. It's amazing the amount of people who act like HK parts are made of Unicorn tears and impossible to find.e n

Sure if you live between brownells and midway. There's more glock out there out there thismeans more parts. No one said they are impossible they just aren't as common.

Trajan
11-28-13, 21:18
The way I see it, you have to break something first, and with most HK's I've seen, that's not going happen for a looong time.... What about trigger springs?

OP: Have you shot both? I'd go and do that first.

But I would have to agree with Voodoo man. If It's xxx vs G19, the G19 is probably the right answer. If I could only have one weapon, it would be the G19 (Gen 2 or 4). Keep in mind that the P30 (standard) is ass backwards in terms of size. G17 grip with a G19 sized slide (actually slightly shorter). So if you plan on CCWing it, you're basically going to be concealing a full sized pistol where it matters, which is grip length.

If you insist on H&K and can wait, I believe the P30X will be unveiled at SHOT. My assumption is it'll be a $900 PPQM1 that takes P30 mags, but I've heard it's suppose to be "competitively priced" so we'll see.

As far as BTF or stovepipes, try a different ammo before you give up on it. I recently this year had a case of S&B 124gr regular pressure stuff that gave me some BTF and a few stovepipes. Some of the rounds even sounded much quieter than the others (and didn't cycle the slide; empty brass in the chamber), so I'm assuming it was a bad batch. Next case of ammo was Magtech regular 115, and no malfunctions. It's no shock that all these issues popping up, even on older models, correlate with the post-2008 election panics.

But again, shoot both on a standardized test, say the 10/10/10 and compare which works best for you. At the end of the day these are just simple tools to propel a 9mm projectile. Nothing to get emotionally wrapped up in as this topic frequently does.

ralph
11-28-13, 21:19
The p30 is a fine pistol I like them and would not hesitate to own or run one. Honestly I will likely add one to my collection one day. However is it worth 2x the money? I don't see it. A g19 will handle everthing from ccw, comp to duty at 1/2 the cost . They are both good its also unfair to assume all glocks don't run based.on some. If we are being honest there are many more reliable glocks than not. The answer should be how much do you want to spend? Both are good choices

Well, in my case I had one of the "bad" G19's..Does that mean all of them are bad? No, of course not. But I lost confidence in it.. Once that was lost, it's very difficult to get it back.. So, I went elsewhere, Those of you who have working Glocks good for you! Me? in all honesty, I'll probably never own another Glock.. I'm happy with what I have.

DreadPirateMoyer
11-28-13, 21:27
Owned multiple Glocks and multiple HKs. The problems in Glocks (both Gen 3 and Gen 4s) are not resolved, so don't fool yourself into buying the wrong gun, OP.

When it comes to P30 vs. G19, there is only one choice: the P30. It's not even a contest. The gun will outperform the hell out of the G19, the parts will last longer, and the parts aren't hard to find like everyone's making them out to be.

Go with the P30.

ralph
11-28-13, 21:28
What about trigger springs?

OP: Have you shot both? I'd go and do that first.

But I would have to agree with Voodoo man. If It's xxx vs G19, the G19 is probably the right answer. If I could only have one weapon, it would be the G19 (Gen 2 or 4). Keep in mind that the P30 (standard) is ass backwards in terms of size. G17 grip with a G19 sized slide (actually slightly shorter). So if you plan on CCWing it, you're basically going to be concealing a full sized pistol where it matters, which is grip length.

If you insist on H&K and can wait, I believe the P30X will be unveiled at SHOT. My assumption is it'll be a $900 PPQM1 that takes P30 mags, but I've heard it's suppose to be "competitively priced" so we'll see.

As far as BTF or stovepipes, try a different ammo before you give up on it. I recently this year had a case of S&B 124gr regular pressure stuff that gave me some BTF and a few stovepipes. Some of the rounds even sounded much quieter than the others (and didn't cycle the slide; empty brass in the chamber), so I'm assuming it was a bad batch. Next case of ammo was Magtech regular 115, and no malfunctions. It's no shock that all these issues popping up, even on older models, correlate with the post-2008 election panics.

But again, shoot both on a standardized test, say the 10/10/10 and compare which works best for you. At the end of the day these are just simple tools to propel a 9mm projectile. Nothing to get emotionally wrapped up in as this topic frequently does.


Trigger springs.. I haven't broke one yet, I also have spares.. Inexpensive part from HKUSA.. I think HK recommends changing at 10,000 rnds, although I think 7500 rnds is more realistic.(including dry-fire practice) As far as the striker-fired P-30 goes, I've been hearing about it for several years. When they are actually on the dealers shelves I'll believe it.

ralph
11-28-13, 21:42
e n

Sure if you live between brownells and midway. There's more glock out there out there thismeans more parts. No one said they are impossible they just aren't as common.

Most people also forget to just call HKUSA, They usually have parts in stock, and unlike Glock, will sell you any part for any HK pistol, and you don't have to be an "armorer" to get them either. .And HKUSA's prices are cheaper than Brownell's, Midway, HK parts.net..The parts "issue" is really a moot point.

LoveAR
11-28-13, 21:53
G19. It's idiot proof which I need from time to time. :D

Agree. Me too.

Biggy
11-28-13, 22:05
IMHO, it just comes down to ones personal preference on trigger types, the grip frame ergos and the mag release and slide release/lock location. Overall, I don't believe one is better than the other, they are just different. IMHO, assuming you get a currently produced Glock that has no BTF issue (and not all of them have or do), simply try and shoot both and get what works for you.

The following is from the ask the SME section of the forum :

Which modern pistol ?

Mr. Vickers Just wanted your thoughts on what modern pistol would you pick today given 3 choices, The latest production glocks, either gen 3 or 4, with all the QC issues they been having? HK p30 with an LEM trigger ?or the Wlather PPQ ?

Reply : Very hard pick as all three are very good pistols

Can't ignore the Glocks because of the parts and availability far exceeds the others

That would probably be my pick

Can't beat em - join em !!

Sensei
11-28-13, 22:07
Very simple. Go to a range that rents guns. Purchase 300 round of quality ammo. Rent both guns. Shoot 150 rounds through both guns. Purchase the one that suits YOU the best.

Beat Trash
11-28-13, 22:59
Very simple. Go to a range that rents guns. Purchase 300 round of quality ammo. Rent both guns. Shoot 150 rounds through both guns. Purchase the one that suits YOU the best.

Reply based on common sense...

RMiller
11-29-13, 01:43
P30. No need to worry about parts.

Recoil springs don't wear? Extra magazines? Good night sights? Holsters?

Don't get me wrong, I know you can get the stuff. My point is I can get a set of sights, a holster, laser grips etc from about any big gun retailer (brownells/midway, etc). I can find accessories here on this equipment exchange constantly (holsters, mags, sights, extra parts).

Hell I can go to my LGS and find anything I might need for the glock in stock. To me that's priceless.



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The Dumb Gun Collector
11-29-13, 02:17
Recoil springs don't wear? Extra magazines? Good night sights? Holsters?

Well, considering HK's replacement interval for the recoil spring is 25,000 rounds I wouldn't panic. Presuming you shoot 1000 rounds per week you have six months to find one. For lesser mortals, this practically means a lifetime of use. So no, I don't consider it a great feature to have to replace the part every 2500 rounds (per Glock armorer's school). You will have to find and pay for 10 Glock recoil assemblies in the same time. Also, there is a recall on Gen4 assemblies so make sure you get the newest one.

As for mags, G&R tactical has them for $35 right now. Glock 17 mags are $25.

Sight and holster availability for the P30 is excellent. Trijicon, Heinie, 10-8, etc. I mean you won't find a Fobus holster at Academy for it, but pretty much every holster that you might actually want is available for the P30.

RMiller
11-29-13, 06:18
I think you're missing the point. I know how nice the HK pistols are. I just would not spend that much on a pistol when I can buy a used glock at $450. Add a set of heinie's and spend the rest of my money on training and ammo. Means a lot when every dollar counts.

I mean I drive an Explorer. Doesn't mean I need to fork out the money for the Navigator. That extra money is a lot of gas, insurance, upkeep. The explorer starts every morning, gets from point A to B, and I can walk into any parts store and buy just about anything for it.

Vs the navigator. The Nav can do the same thing, but you'd be surprised what the parts store has to special order or how many times you'll find yourself out at the Dealer.

That's the point I'm trying to make. Not downing the P30 or any other HK pistol.


Well, considering HK's replacement interval for the recoil spring is 25,000 rounds I wouldn't panic. Presuming you shoot 1000 rounds per week you have six months to find one. For lesser mortals, this practically means a lifetime of use. So no, I don't consider it a great feature to have to replace the part every 2500 rounds (per Glock armorer's school). You will have to find and pay for 10 Glock recoil assemblies in the same time. Also, there is a recall on Gen4 assemblies so make sure you get the newest one.

As for mags, G&R tactical has them for $35 right now. Glock 17 mags are $25.

Sight and holster availability for the P30 is excellent. Trijicon, Heinie, 10-8, etc. I mean you won't find a Fobus holster at Academy for it, but pretty much every holster that you might actually want is available for the P30.




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Guinnessman
11-29-13, 07:07
I owned an early P30 in DA/SA and it was a fine pistol. The accuracy and ergonomics were by far better than any other handgun that I owned at the time (or ever). At the time, I had two Glock 19's that were made before the Glock problems started. The Glock 19's are still better guns for ME. The P30 was sold to fund another AR and the rest is history. The P30 is the only gun that I regret selling. If I would have had more cash at the time I would have never parted with that gun.

Go out and shoot both, then buy either 2 Glock 19's, or buy 1 P30. I highly doubt you will need any other spare parts for your HK other than the occasional trigger spring.

The Dumb Gun Collector
11-29-13, 07:29
I think you're missing the point. I know how nice the HK pistols are. I just would not spend that much on a pistol when I can buy a used glock at $450. Add a set of heinie's and spend the rest of my money on training and ammo. Means a lot when every dollar counts.

No, that is a different point than the one you were arguing before. Now you are arguing that used Glock 19s are cheaper than P30s. That is obviously true.

Kchen986
11-29-13, 07:35
I own both, and shoot and carry each regularly. Normally, I would recommend the G19 for the sheer utility of a pistol with "everything you need, and nothing you don't."

However, recent production G19s have caused me to have Failures to Feed, and multiple BURNS on my face from the BTF issue. I've had to dick around with the ejector, extractor, and recoil spring to bring my 2012 G19 in to the realm of acceptable combat reliability. You're far more likely to encounter issues with a current production G19 than a Current P30.

Everything else being equal, I would recommend the P30 until such time that you can find a good, reliable, G19. I have a bond with my 2009 G19. My 2012 G19 sits in the safe.

Psalms144.1
11-29-13, 08:21
I have the exact same conundrum, and have been struggling with it for over a year now. I own and shoot the P30, P2000 and G19 - so cost is no longer a factor in the equation for me. Both of the HKs are the "V4" LEM. In my previous position, I carried a G19 daily and, for nearly five years, shot 7,000 rounds/year+ of proficiency ammo in addition to standard qualifications and at least one (typically two) high-end commercial training courses annually. Here are my thoughts:

1. G19: If you get one that works out of the box, it is nearly impossible to beat for shootability and size efficiency. Costs easily half the price of an HK, parts and accessories are MUCH more available. Down sides to the G19 - finger grooves suck (easily remedied with a file and a couple hours of patient work). Trigger guard is a little tight - there's not much room for error with that easy to use trigger, so if you live somewhere where you wear heavy gloves a lot, might be an issue. Consistency is lacking across the Glock line - but, hey, you're buying a $400 pistol. Specifically, IME, accuracy varies WILDLY from sample to sample even in the same model - in the last three years I've gone through SIX G19s to get one that worked reliably (and had to go to APEX after market parts to get #6 to run) - some were tack drivers, some are "meh" in the accuracy department. Glock's grip angle does not lend itself to a "natural" point presentation, but, you'll train yourself into locking your wrists forward after a while. Glock's trigger requires specific finger placement in order to avoid "pushing" rounds opposite the direction of the strong side hand (hence the frequent discussions about Glock's "shooting left") - again, a training issue, but something you need to be ready for - ESPECIALLY if you're a BHP shooter and used to using just the tip of your trigger finger on the pistol. So, bottom line, with the Glock you get an inexpensive pistol that's stupidly easy to maintain that will either be boringly reliable out of the box, or will require application of aftermarket parts to make it work right. You MIGHT get a pistol that's a tack driver, or you might have to spring for a barrel recrown, or an aftermarket barrel to get real accuracy out of it. But, you'll be able to put ANY sights you've ever heard of on it, and carry it in ANY holster ever designed.

2. The P30/P2000 are elegantly built, exceptionally accurate pistols with fabulous ergonomics and a selection of horrible triggers. The P30's user-adaptable grips make it the best "feeling" pistol I've ever owned or shot. Accuracy on both pistols is measurably and significantly superior to any Glock I've ever shot. The P30's slide matches the size of the G19's, but the grip is G17 length in order to maintain equal capacity, making it harder to conceal under light cover than the G19. The P2000 is actually smaller overall than the G19, but gives up two rounds of capacity. The DA on TDA HKs tends to be heavy and long, and the SA tends to have longish reset (definitely longer than the reset on the Glock) with some creep and overtravel. The LEM trigger is the same, except there's no DA - just a long, very light and smooth take up to the "wall" where the trigger breaks, then a mediumish reset with some creep in takeup, then the break again with some over travel. Of the two, I think the LEM is the better option, but there are lots of folks who simply despise the LEM, and I don't fault them for it. However, despite being crippled by bad triggers, as stated above, both of my HKs will shoot circles around any Glock I've ever owned, and I don't have to worry about where/how I place my finger on the trigger. Trigger guards are generous (though the P30's is afflicted with the trough which was put there solely to cause blisters on some shooters' trigger fingers - again, easily remedied with a file and some careful, patient attention), so the HK, IME is a better choice if you wear gloves a lot. Where the HKs really suffer is in aftermarket stuff. Sight manufacturers simply don't seem to be interested in making options for the HK - for instance, try finding ANY NS option for the P2K EXCEPT standard Meprolight/Trijicon green-on-green three dots. Yes, the HDs are theoretically available now, but, they do appear to be made out of unicorn tears. P30 sight options are better, but nowhere near as good as Glocks. Likewise holsters, makers seem to have gotten on board the P30 train now, and most major makers catalog that as an option, but the P2000 is still a stepchild (if I had a nickle for every holster maker who's asked "won't that P2000 fit in my P30 holster?"...) Bottom line, the P30 is an excellent piece of workmanship, supremely accurate despite trigger limitations, but somewhat slower on pure speed iterations than the Glock. And it's expensive.

So, what's in my holster? The P2000 more often than not, because, in my realistic assessment of my needs for SD, I think the ability to confidently make low-probability shots (extended ranges or discrete/obscured targets) is more important than the ability to dump 16 rounds into a 5" circle at 5 yards in 8 seconds or less. If my current G19 showed better accuracy, that decision might be reversed, but, you gotta dance with the girl that brung you...

Regards,

Kevin

HKGuns
11-29-13, 09:47
P30. No need to worry about parts.

In addition you won't spend the cost of the pistol again on the multitude of upgrades required for it to be the equal of a p30. Bonus round is that you'll have a pistol without the ergonomics of a 2x4.

Coincidently, I shot my P30 yesterday, obviously, at only 12 yards the groups aren't important.

http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s10/v107/p914075435-5.jpg

RMiller
11-29-13, 10:06
No, that is a different point than the one you were arguing before. Now you are arguing that used Glock 19s are cheaper than P30s. That is obviously true.

Ok. My points are:

1) Glocks are cheaper. Both NIB and there's a multitude of used ones floating around.

2) used parts and accessories are always floating around for cheap and new parts can be found MORE easily.

Summed up? Glock is good for a cheap ass like me. Haha


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Guns-up.50
11-29-13, 10:07
In addition you won't spend the cost of the pistol again on the multitude of upgrades required for it to be the equal of a p30. Bonus round is that you'll have a pistol without the ergonomics of a 2x4.

so the upgrades cost the same as the gun?? 100 sights+20 connector, does not equal 550; hell we can even throw in a match barrel and still buy our wives dinner.


People you need not be defensive nobody said the P30 is bad, in fact most would agree from a quality stand point hk is better. However from a price point of view is it really worth double? To me no, My g19s run like scolded dogs, they are more than capable of hits on a c- zone steel at 100m. After some stippling they fit great. you all got me I had to replace the 6$ action spring.
HKs are nice no doubt but are we just trying to justify our spending double compared to the ever capable g19?

RMiller
11-29-13, 10:17
In addition you won't spend the cost of the pistol again on the multitude of upgrades required for it to be the equal of a p30. Bonus round is that you'll have a pistol without the ergonomics of a 2x4.

Those upgrades that took me to the cost of an HK were:

- Surefire x300
- Quality Holster
- Extended mag release
- Vickers slide stop
- Improved trigger
- Grip force adapter
- Heine Straight 8 Slant pros
- quality training ($200 gets me into a VSM class)

Stipple job was free, so was shaving the finger grooves and undercutting the trigger guard. Time into it doesn't matter. I enjoy it.

Granted I bought it all lightly used or on sale/clearance. Anyhow I think I've done alright.

I didn't include ammo because its a useable commodity.



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Guns-up.50
11-29-13, 10:27
HKguns

Your group is irrelevant, its common knowledge that its shooter specific, I have seen much tighter groups than that done with a glock, so by your logic glocks would be more accurate ?

HKGuns
11-29-13, 10:44
so the upgrades cost the same as the gun?? 100 sights+20 connector, does not equal 550; hell we can even throw in a match barrel and still buy our wives dinner.

No, I was exaggerating a bit for effect.

P30 (G&R) $845

G19 (Buds) $539
Trijicons: $154 (Popular choice)
Guide Rod: $27
Total: $720

Difference: $125, which is more than accounted for in the wide array of variants available to suit your shooting / use preference.

500 rounds of 9mm NATO: -$175

....and your wife should be cooking! :)

HKGuns
11-29-13, 10:45
HKguns

Your group is irrelevant, its common knowledge that its shooter specific, I have seen much tighter groups than that done with a glock, so by your logic glocks would be more accurate ?

Your general observation is accurate, I only posted it as I just shot mine yesterday. Nowhere did I say a gLoCk in the right hands couldn't do better. I am certainly not the benchmark for pistol shooting.

ralph
11-29-13, 10:50
so the upgrades cost the same as the gun?? 100 sights+20 connector, does not equal 550; hell we can even throw in a match barrel and still buy our wives dinner.


People you need not be defensive nobody said the P30 is bad, in fact most would agree from a quality stand point hk is better. However from a price point of view is it really worth double? To me no, My g19s run like scolded dogs, they are more than capable of hits on a c- zone steel at 100m. After some stippling they fit great. you all got me I had to replace the 6$ action spring.
HKs are nice no doubt but are we just trying to justify our spending double compared to the ever capable g19?

I'd go reread what Psalms posted...6 glocks in 3 yrs to get one that worked, and it needed Apex parts to get it to work.. and there's also a 100pg + thread around here about ejection issues that also include Gen4's so, "ever capable" is, in reality "luck of the draw". As I said in my earlier post, I myself lost confidence in Glock, after my own experiences with a Gen3 G19. If you got one that works that's great. I wasn't so lucky. At some point Glock made a decision to cut a corner or two to increase production, and it bit them in the ass ,and still is, Hk at least managed to maintain a quality standard, After the G19, I was ready for something that actually worked, and was accurate. I don't have a problem paying more for something that is built that way. I find the expense argument meaningless, you should carry something you have confidence in, and if that's a HK, or say, a Wilson combat 1911 so be it. You can't put a price on confidence in a carry gun, you either have confidence in it or you don't, if you don't, get rid of it and try something else. I'll be the first to admit, if any of my HK's start screwing up like the G19 I had did, They're going down the road tomorrow..I'm not married to them.

Five_Point_Five_Six
11-29-13, 11:00
Recoil springs don't wear? Extra magazines? Good night sights? Holsters?

Don't get me wrong, I know you can get the stuff. My point is I can get a set of sights, a holster, laser grips etc from about any big gun retailer (brownells/midway, etc). I can find accessories here on this equipment exchange constantly (holsters, mags, sights, extra parts).

Hell I can go to my LGS and find anything I might need for the glock in stock. To me that's priceless.



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I don't buy holsters and sights from the LGS. I couldn't care less if off the rack brands like Fobus, Tagua, Galco, or !BLACKHAWK! make holsters for the P30. Any holster that I would consider using for daily carry, guess what, they make them for the HK's. Sights? Same with holsters, the options that I would buy are available for the HK as well. Yes you can buy Glock holsters at Walmart, but I only buy ammo there.

Yes, Glocks are cheaper than HK's. A new Glock will usually be less than a used HK, but it might also give you hot brass tattoos on your forehead, but that's ok since the cost of bandaids and antibiotic ointment probably won't add up to more than the price difference.

Guns-up.50
11-29-13, 11:27
I'd go reread what Psalms posted...6 glocks in 3 yrs to get one that worked, and it needed Apex parts to get it to work.. and there's also a 100pg + thread around here about ejection issues that also include Gen4's so, "ever capable" is, in reality "luck of the draw". As I said in my earlier post, I myself lost confidence in Glock, after my own experiences with a Gen3 G19. If you got one that works that's great. I wasn't so lucky. At some point Glock made a decision to cut a corner or two to increase production, and it bit them in the ass ,and still is, Hk at least managed to maintain a quality standard, After the G19, I was ready for something that actually worked, and was accurate. I don't have a problem paying more for something that is built that way. I find the expense argument meaningless, you should carry something you have confidence in, and if that's a HK, or say, a Wilson combat 1911 so be it. You can't put a price on confidence in a carry gun, you either have confidence in it or you don't, if you don't, get rid of it and try something else. I'll be the first to admit, if any of my HK's start screwing up like the G19 I had did, They're going down the road tomorrow..I'm not married to them.


Im sorry but but there are still more problem free glocks than not. People needed something to bitch about and glock gave it to them, a run a bad pistols and all the sudden they went from the standard to just south of high points. There are better pistols out there for sure, but i disagree with your price point being moot. A bad experience doesn't constitute a lifetime of hatred. It is one thing to make a shitty product and throw the buyers under the bus, but by standing by it and fixing it is another.

OP if money is of little value or you can get it on the cheap then do the HK you will not be disappointed. However I would not let some bad experiences flake you away form a glock, nearly 100% of the people I shoot with, shoot glocks. No issues and some are even gen 4s but mostly gen 3. For all the Hk shooters turned from glocks, I don't blame you, you had an issue you remedied it with a fine pistol.

This argument will go on forever without end. To each his own

C4IGrant
11-29-13, 11:39
No, I was exaggerating a bit for effect.

P30 (Buds) $850

G19 (Buds) $539
Trijicons: $154 (Popular choice)
Guide Rod: $27
Total: $720

Difference: $130

500 rounds of 9mm NATO: -$175

....and your wife should be cooking! :)

You should stop using buds as a reference. We have P30's in stock WITH factory NS's for $845!

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=730903-A5


C4

C4IGrant
11-29-13, 11:44
Im sorry but but there are still more problem free glocks than not. People needed something to bitch about and glock gave it to them, a run a bad pistols and all the sudden they went from the standard to just south of high points. There are better pistols out there for sure, but i disagree with your price point being moot. A bad experience doesn't constitute a lifetime of hatred. It is one thing to make a shitty product and throw the buyers under the bus, but by standing by it and fixing it is another.

OP if money is of little value or you can get it on the cheap then do the HK you will not be disappointed. However I would not let some bad experiences flake you away form a glock, nearly 100% of the people I shoot with, shoot glocks. No issues and some are even gen 4s but mostly gen 3. For all the Hk shooters turned from glocks, I don't blame you, you had an issue you remedied it with a fine pistol.

This argument will go on forever without end. To each his own

I was talking to a famous firearms instructor (and one of the best known authorities on firearms) and he made a bold statement to me the other day. The days of recommending Glock's as the best choice is OVER.

No, Glock has not fixed their issues. No, it wasn't ONE batch.

The most accurate and reliable pistol made (currently) is the HK P30.


C4

HKGuns
11-29-13, 11:48
You should stop using buds as a reference. We have P30's in stock WITH factory NS's for $845!

I am very sorry, no slight was intended. I Should have thought to use your prices! I am still drooling over your MR prices too. :)

C4IGrant
11-29-13, 11:54
I am very sorry, no slight was intended. I Should have thought to use your prices! I am still drooling over your MR prices too. :)

No worries. I just wanted people to know that there were better options out there.



C4

JBecker 72
11-29-13, 12:12
I was talking to a famous firearms instructor (and one of the best known authorities on firearms) and he made a bold statement to me the other day. The days of recommending Glock's as the best choice is OVER.

No, Glock has not fixed their issues. No, it wasn't ONE batch.

The most accurate and reliable pistol made (currently) is the HK P30.


C4

And this is why I went the P30V1 route. Thanks for the great price on mags Grant, and thanks to Raven Concealment for having a Phantom holster for it in my hands in 5 business days. Once funds permit, I'm gonna get another P30V1 and a P30LV1 and dump the rest of my "other" pistols.

If they ever make a P30SK I will be really thrilled.

HKGuns
11-29-13, 12:17
If they ever make a P30SK I will be really thrilled.

It is only an unconfirmed rumor that they will introduce just that at the '14 shot show. We shall see........I also have the P2KSK and it is no slouch, so if the rumor turns out to be just rumor you should look at one.

munch520
11-29-13, 12:18
I've had both. My gen 3 19s have worked no issues so from my point of view the Glock is still the good choice. Easy to shoot well, easy/cheap to find parts for, and easy to self service.

My p30 was nice, very accurate, felt great in the hand. But had a terrible trigger (I didn't have LEM) and was over-engineered IMO. And I didn't care for the larger frame.

Trajan
11-29-13, 15:06
Im sorry but but there are still more problem free glocks than not. People needed something to bitch about and glock gave it to them, a run a bad pistols and all the sudden they went from the standard to just south of high points. There are better pistols out there for sure, but i disagree with your price point being moot. A bad experience doesn't constitute a lifetime of hatred. It is one thing to make a shitty product and throw the buyers under the bus, but by standing by it and fixing it is another.

I think it's also important that we keep in mind that we're also talking about a minority (H&K shooters) of a minority (people that shoot). By the sheer numbers this is going to happen.

brushy bill
11-29-13, 17:45
To be fair dollar to dollar... The question should be p30 or 2 g19s.

Fair enough

Striker
11-29-13, 21:51
Very simple. Go to a range that rents guns. Purchase 300 round of quality ammo. Rent both guns. Shoot 150 rounds through both guns. Purchase the one that suits YOU the best.

This, IMO, is right on. No one can tell you what pistol works best for you; only you can do that. As you can see for yourself, everyone has a slightly different answer.


I have the exact same conundrum, and have been struggling with it for over a year now. I own and shoot the P30, P2000 and G19 - so cost is no longer a factor in the equation for me. Both of the HKs are the "V4" LEM. In my previous position, I carried a G19 daily and, for nearly five years, shot 7,000 rounds/year+ of proficiency ammo in addition to standard qualifications and at least one (typically two) high-end commercial training courses annually. Here are my thoughts:

1. G19: If you get one that works out of the box, it is nearly impossible to beat for shootability and size efficiency. Costs easily half the price of an HK, parts and accessories are MUCH more available. Down sides to the G19 - finger grooves suck (easily remedied with a file and a couple hours of patient work). Trigger guard is a little tight - there's not much room for error with that easy to use trigger, so if you live somewhere where you wear heavy gloves a lot, might be an issue. Consistency is lacking across the Glock line - but, hey, you're buying a $400 pistol. Specifically, IME, accuracy varies WILDLY from sample to sample even in the same model - in the last three years I've gone through SIX G19s to get one that worked reliably (and had to go to APEX after market parts to get #6 to run) - some were tack drivers, some are "meh" in the accuracy department. Glock's grip angle does not lend itself to a "natural" point presentation, but, you'll train yourself into locking your wrists forward after a while. Glock's trigger requires specific finger placement in order to avoid "pushing" rounds opposite the direction of the strong side hand (hence the frequent discussions about Glock's "shooting left") - again, a training issue, but something you need to be ready for - ESPECIALLY if you're a BHP shooter and used to using just the tip of your trigger finger on the pistol. So, bottom line, with the Glock you get an inexpensive pistol that's stupidly easy to maintain that will either be boringly reliable out of the box, or will require application of aftermarket parts to make it work right. You MIGHT get a pistol that's a tack driver, or you might have to spring for a barrel recrown, or an aftermarket barrel to get real accuracy out of it. But, you'll be able to put ANY sights you've ever heard of on it, and carry it in ANY holster ever designed.

2. The P30/P2000 are elegantly built, exceptionally accurate pistols with fabulous ergonomics and a selection of horrible triggers. The P30's user-adaptable grips make it the best "feeling" pistol I've ever owned or shot. Accuracy on both pistols is measurably and significantly superior to any Glock I've ever shot. The P30's slide matches the size of the G19's, but the grip is G17 length in order to maintain equal capacity, making it harder to conceal under light cover than the G19. The P2000 is actually smaller overall than the G19, but gives up two rounds of capacity. The DA on TDA HKs tends to be heavy and long, and the SA tends to have longish reset (definitely longer than the reset on the Glock) with some creep and overtravel. The LEM trigger is the same, except there's no DA - just a long, very light and smooth take up to the "wall" where the trigger breaks, then a mediumish reset with some creep in takeup, then the break again with some over travel. Of the two, I think the LEM is the better option, but there are lots of folks who simply despise the LEM, and I don't fault them for it. However, despite being crippled by bad triggers, as stated above, both of my HKs will shoot circles around any Glock I've ever owned, and I don't have to worry about where/how I place my finger on the trigger. Trigger guards are generous (though the P30's is afflicted with the trough which was put there solely to cause blisters on some shooters' trigger fingers - again, easily remedied with a file and some careful, patient attention), so the HK, IME is a better choice if you wear gloves a lot. Where the HKs really suffer is in aftermarket stuff. Sight manufacturers simply don't seem to be interested in making options for the HK - for instance, try finding ANY NS option for the P2K EXCEPT standard Meprolight/Trijicon green-on-green three dots. Yes, the HDs are theoretically available now, but, they do appear to be made out of unicorn tears. P30 sight options are better, but nowhere near as good as Glocks. Likewise holsters, makers seem to have gotten on board the P30 train now, and most major makers catalog that as an option, but the P2000 is still a stepchild (if I had a nickle for every holster maker who's asked "won't that P2000 fit in my P30 holster?"...) Bottom line, the P30 is an excellent piece of workmanship, supremely accurate despite trigger limitations, but somewhat slower on pure speed iterations than the Glock. And it's expensive.

So, what's in my holster? The P2000 more often than not, because, in my realistic assessment of my needs for SD, I think the ability to confidently make low-probability shots (extended ranges or discrete/obscured targets) is more important than the ability to dump 16 rounds into a 5" circle at 5 yards in 8 seconds or less. If my current G19 showed better accuracy, that decision might be reversed, but, you gotta dance with the girl that brung you...

Regards,

Kevin
Overall a pretty decent assessment, I would add that Glock accuracy can easily be improved with a match grade barrel (if your agency allows this); and while HK TDA isn't Sig TDA, I do find it shootable. I can't say about LEM because I've never run one.


I was talking to a famous firearms instructor (and one of the best known authorities on firearms) and he made a bold statement to me the other day. The days of recommending Glock's as the best choice is OVER.

No, Glock has not fixed their issues. No, it wasn't ONE batch.

The most accurate and reliable pistol made (currently) is the HK P30.


C4

In fairness I don't personally believe Glock was ever the "best choice" for everyone. Nor was it ever the right answer to every duty/defense handgun question asked. That, IMO, was the internet more than anything else. It became popular to say the Glock 19 whenever anyone asked anything about defense/duty handguns. It wasn't the right answer for everyone then and it isn't now. Just as 9mm isn't the right answer to every caliber question. Btw, just as a sidenote, I like 9mm Glocks, but I think there has always been more out there and I think there still is.

H&K
11-29-13, 22:15
It is only an unconfirmed rumor that they will introduce just that at the '14 shot show. We shall see........I also have the P2KSK and it is no slouch, so if the rumor turns out to be just rumor you should look at one.

http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q637/boesep01/pistolpicture_zps91820edc-20131129-230737_zps35c98803.jpg

HKGuns
11-29-13, 22:26
Someone's working OT at the gun shop! :)

Cool, looks like confirmation to me......what is an SP5K?

YVK
11-29-13, 23:58
OP: here is a a cheaper alternative to figuring it out.
Poor yourself some of your favorite scotch and calmly consider worst possible scenarios:

- The 19 gives you some brass to face, less likely but possibly FTF, most of this minority of Glocks are fixable with aftermarket parts, $.

- You can't shoot P30 worth a damn 'cause their DA/SA is the worst of all reputable brands and LEM is not as simple as many present it to be. Certainly fixable, time and $$.

Choose what will piss you off the least.

Brianb23
11-30-13, 01:05
You get what you pay for

Meplat
11-30-13, 01:28
If you insist on H&K and can wait, I believe the P30X will be unveiled at SHOT. My assumption is it'll be a $900 PPQM1 that takes P30 mags, but I've heard it's suppose to be "competitively priced" so we'll see.


Just out of curiosity, where's the source for this information? Is it just internet rumors, or is there any reliable source making this statement? I've heard the rumor mill talking about this for about 2 years now, yet I've seen no real proof yet and it seems unlike H&K.

Dos Cylindros
11-30-13, 02:51
Just out of curiosity, where's the source for this information? Is it just internet rumors, or is there any reliable source making this statement? I've heard the rumor mill talking about this for about 2 years now, yet I've seen no real proof yet and it seems unlike H&K.

Mostly inter web rumor. I did read a post on HKPro from an industry insider confirming HK will be real easing some new guns this year. He claims that at least one should be extremely popular. Take it for whatever you think it is worth. I for one hope for either a P30SK or a striker fired version of the P30.

ralph
11-30-13, 08:08
OP: here is a a cheaper alternative to figuring it out.
Poor yourself some of your favorite scotch and calmly consider worst possible scenarios:

- The 19 gives you some brass to face, less likely but possibly FTF, most of this minority of Glocks are fixable with aftermarket parts, $.

- You can't shoot P30 worth a damn 'cause their DA/SA is the worst of all reputable brands and LEM is not as simple as many present it to be. Certainly fixable, time and $$.

Choose what will piss you off the least.

I'll say this. The LEM trigger isn't for everybody, The light LEM is the best of the series. HK will have (2014) a LEM 4.1 as Montrala calls it, (as he's actually using it, as it's presently only available in Europe)) this reduces trigger pre travel by about 3/16". Reset, trigger pull, is still the same. In my case dryfire practice with a snap cap helped immensely. The LEM is very unforgiving of poor trigger control. Most Glock shooters can learn the system, given some dry fire practice, along with live fire.
The G19, although if the OP gets one that throws brass in his face, I'd also like to point out that the Apex extractor doesn't always fix the problem. In my g19, it fixed the brass to the face, but introduced a new problem.. double feeds.. and after following Apex's instructions for further "fitting" the extractor, it would still do it, you just never knew when.. If the Op cares to, he can scroll down to the Industry forums and click "manfacturer's" and then on Apex tactical, and read what Randy Lee has to say, He offers some excellent detailed analysis of the problem. Reading the opinions of a SME like MR. Lee, offers a lot more honest insight than you'll find in this thread.

The Dumb Gun Collector
11-30-13, 08:19
Let's be honest about brass in the face. It isn't new. My 1989 G19 does it. Every G19 I have ever owned does it. No HK does it.

YVK
11-30-13, 09:32
I'll say this. The LEM trigger isn't for everybody...Most Glock shooters can learn the system, given some dry fire practice, along with live fire.


Yes, you're very correct, it isn't for everyone. I know of at least three excellent shooters, I am talking M in IDPA - B to A in USPSA with Glocks, who quit on LEM after giving it more than fair shake. I am talking 5K live rounds for a guy who gave it least effort, and a lot more for two others. I am less talented than them, it took me 10K with LEM to get to the same level of consistency that I had with G19 after 5K. At least one Team HK shooter carries LEM but competes with a DA/SA.
My personal experience is that LEM is one of a hardest triggers to learn. I stopped recommending it because it'd be hypocritical: mine has a Grayguns reduced reset, and I can't recommend a pistol I wouldn't have stuck with if it hadn't had $360 trigger job + $140 shipping.


HK will have (2014) a LEM 4.1 as Montrala calls it, (as he's actually using it, as it's presently only available in Europe)) this reduces trigger pre travel by about 3/16". Reset, trigger pull, is still the same.

Not a fact that HK USA will have it. I emailed them about it two-three weeks ago. The reply was that theymay have it at the end of 2014.







Let's be honest about brass in the face. It isn't new. My 1989 G19 does it. Every G19 I have ever owned does it. No HK does it.

The ejection pattern being iffy is not new, brass to the face is. Reading all these posts, I feel very special that my 2009 G19 has not had a single problem with cycling or FTF or BTF in 15K rounds, even though it throws occasional brass over my head.

Guns-up.50
11-30-13, 10:03
I think it's also important that we keep in mind that we're also talking about a minority (H&K shooters) of a minority (people that shoot). By the sheer numbers this is going to happen.

sorry if I misled you, what I meant was there are more reliable glocks than not reliable glocks, my statement had nothing to do with the p30

The Dumb Gun Collector
11-30-13, 11:07
The ejection pattern being iffy is not new, brass to the face is.

Only if you consider the Reagan administration "new."

Biggy
11-30-13, 11:26
There is no denying the H&K P30 is an accurate and reliable 9mm pistol, just like its twin, the accurate and reliable striker fired Walther PPQ. IMHO, for myself and many others, the major flaw of the P30 is its trigger. Also IMHO, while it can be mastered, I think for most people (but not all) it is not the optimal trigger and most will never put in enough effort or shoot it enough to really get good with it. I also think that most people will agree, that *out of the box*, you have a better chance of getting a Glock with some issues than a P30 or a PPQ. That being said, if you have a Glock 9mm, no matter the generation, that has been proven to have no issues, you already know that you have a reliable, durable and plenty accurate pistol. Here are some comments from the ask the SME (LAV) section of this forum from *11-22-13 and 10-22-13* that I think are pertinent to this thread.

Larry Vickers - Subject Matter Expert

It seems the newer gen 4 guns are much better - the last few I have seen in classes have worked fine
As far as when or where they fixed the issues who knows but if I were to buy one I'd try and get one that was made yesterday ( Nov 2013 ) vs one made 6 months ago - that's just my .02 cents Good luck
VickersTactical


And from 10-22-13

Which modern pistol ?

Mr. Vickers Just wanted your thoughts on what modern pistol *would you pick* today given 3 choices, The latest production glocks, either gen 3 or 4, with all the QC issues they been having? HK p30 with an LEM trigger ?or the Wlather PPQ ?

Quick reply
10-22-13, 20:01 #2
Larry Vickers's

Very hard pick as all three are very good pistols

Can't ignore the Glocks because of the parts and availability far exceeds the others

**That would probably be my pick**

Can't beat em - join em !!

VickersTactical.com

Quick reply to this message Reply Reply With Quote Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message

The Dumb Gun Collector
11-30-13, 11:48
Here he is flat-out saying the P30 is a better pistol, but that the G19 is a better value.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?99864-P30-vs-G19

Larry Vickers Subject Matter Expert

So here we go again. The P30 is clearly a better gun, but if you are willing to compromise to save some $$, the Glock will do as long as you are lucky and like wearing your ball cap low on your head.

Biggy
11-30-13, 12:39
Here is his accurate quote/reply.

P30 vs. G19

Mr. Vickers I now how much you think of the HK 45 and HK 45C. I also know you are a fan of the Glock 19. But do you think the HK P30 9mm in it's light LEM variant is as good or better than the trusty G19?
Thanks

Reply:

Yes I do - problem is you can almost buy 2 G19's for the price of one P30

For the money spent it is very difficult to beat a G17 or G19

Be safe
LAV

Also from the SME section of the forum : https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?104485-Stiker-and-DA-SA-Questions

YVK
11-30-13, 12:43
Only if you consider the Reagan administration "new."

I've trained with Vickers a couple of times during Bush years. He was shooting his Bowie Glock 19 and I didn't hear a word from him about low-sitting ball cap, brass to face or anything in regards to ejection at that time. Funny how preferential reporting works. As does the selection bias.

Biggy
11-30-13, 13:05
IMHO, just remember SME'S have their pistol preferences also. They definitely don't all prefer to use and carry P30's or Glock 9's.

The Dumb Gun Collector
11-30-13, 13:11
Only if you consider the Reagan administration "new."
I've trained with Vickers a couple of times during Bush years. He was shooting his Bowie Glock 19 and I didn't hear a word from him about low-sitting ball cap, brass to face or anything in regards to ejection at that time. Funny how preferential reporting works. As does the selection bias.

As did I. He made it plain that the H&K pistols were the best available but too expensive for many to justify. As far as selection bias, I don't even own a P30--but I do have a gen 2 19. I really am more of a .45 guy . And don't take my word for it, the internet is filled with Glock brass in face questions all the way back to the early forums from the 90s (the firing line, etc). Basically, the gen 4s have had so many issues that the old stuff is getting lumped in.


I have to say though, at least the Glocks I have owned just sort of toss the brass in my face. I had a Novak's Colt Commander that left moon-shaped scars in my forehead and glasses. Basically, the slide was outrunning the ejector and smacking the brass back. I have always wondered if that was the deal with the G19.

Biggy
11-30-13, 13:48
Also remember that not all Glock 9's, no matter the generation have any issues. What percentage of Glock 9's made in the last four years that do, would be just a guess by someone at best. IMHO, there has never been or ever will be " Glock Perfection " and the HK Slogan of "In a world of compromise some don't ", for me and I am sure for a lot of other people the triggers are the compromise.

The Dumb Gun Collector
11-30-13, 14:22
If triggers are your deal-breaker you better get a 1911--especially if you don't care about random malfunctions and erratic ejection. No service pistol can match the 1911's trigger. As far as the Glock having a better trigger, that seems to be the consensus. I am the wrong person to ask since my preferred carry gun is DAO revolver. All of the modern service pistols feel like target guns next to a scandium j-frame!

LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-30-13, 14:39
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/Pistols/DSC_0367_zps6514b023.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/glockfire/media/Pistols/DSC_0367_zps6514b023.jpg.html)

Obviously, I own both.

When I wanted to buy a semi auto shotgun, I looked at the R 1100 and the B M4. The 1100 was half the price of the M4, but didnt come with the best of reputations. So, I bought the M4 because someday, I may NEED that shotgun to work and I dont want to question it.

That little anecdote ties directly into my thought process on the P30. I was the owner of a brand new Blue Label Gen 4 G17. I had issues with it after a while. At first, I refused to believe the Gen 4 nonsense and went as far as to call some people liars. Then the FTE and BTF started and I ate a nice plate of crow. Apex extractor was a fix for the BTF but not the random FTE. I lost all faith in it, sold it, and bought what I knew I shouldve bought in the first place: a P30 Light LEM. It IS the Benelli M4 to the Remington 1100. It IS the KAC SR15 to the AR15 line.

My Gen 3 G19 is still a workhorse, and as such it remains my car gun. It started my love affair with polymer after a boring marraige with Sigs. But the P30 is the duty gun that I choose to rely on day in and day out. It's funny, I'm so used the the amazing ergonomics of the P30 that when I pick up a Glock it almost hurts gripping it....



p.s. The P30 isnt perfect, not by a long shot. The trigger is pretty bad, lets all just admit that. Maybe not so much bad as it it alien and strange. My P30 doesnt like low-powered rounds. It'll eject them, but not with alot of force. Sometimes the slide auto-forwards. It had an ammo related stoppage ONCE. Holsters are hard as hell to find for them, luckily I FINALLY got my Basketweave SF 6365, but alas no level 3 light bearing holsters for duty. But even with all that, I'll take it any day over your Glock (my one remaining Glock is better than your Glock).

Dos Cylindros
11-30-13, 14:55
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/Pistols/DSC_0367_zps6514b023.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/glockfire/media/Pistols/DSC_0367_zps6514b023.jpg.html)

Obviously, I own both.

When I wanted to buy a semi auto shotgun, I looked at the R 1100 and the B M4. The 1100 was half the price of the M4, but didnt come with the best of reputations. So, I bought the M4 because someday, I may NEED that shotgun to work and I dont want to question it.

That little anecdote ties directly into my thought process on the P30. I was the owner of a brand new Blue Label Gen 4 G17. I had issues with it after a while. At first, I refused to believe the Gen 4 nonsense and went as far as to call some people liars. Then the FTE and BTF started and I ate a nice plate of crow. Apex extractor was a fix for the BTF but not the random FTE. I lost all faith in it, sold it, and bought what I knew I shouldve bought in the first place: a P30 Light LEM. It IS the Benelli M4 to the Remington 1100. It IS the KAC SR15 to the AR15 line.

My Gen 3 G19 is still a workhorse, and as such it remains my car gun. It started my love affair with polymer after a boring marraige with Sigs. But the P30 is the duty gun that I choose to rely on day in and day out. It's funny, I'm so used the the amazing ergonomics of the P30 that when I pick up a Glock it almost hurts gripping it....



p.s. The P30 isnt perfect, not by a long shot. The trigger is pretty bad, lets all just admit that. Maybe not so much bad as it it alien and strange. My P30 doesnt like low-powered rounds. It'll eject them, but not with alot of force. Sometimes the slide auto-forwards. It had an ammo related stoppage ONCE. Holsters are hard as hell to find for them, luckily I FINALLY got my Basketweave SF 6365, but alas no level 3 light bearing holsters for duty. But even with all that, I'll take it any day over your Glock (my one remaining Glock is better than your Glock).

This sums it up perfectly for me. I have 15 years of on duty LE use with striker fired guns, 12 of those being on the Glock platform. My Glocks worked acceptably in light of the fact that I had no other choice. The M&P 40 I'm now issued is, in my experience far superior to the Glock platform I used for so many years. I have recently undergone a paradigm shift and I choose the P30 (V1 LEM)for carry on my own time. If I could, I would also carry one on duty. I can certainly deal with the Glock platform, especially after extensive grip mods, but the P30 just plain works for me right out of the box.

Surf
11-30-13, 15:32
Just a quick note on the Glock issue. I am very familiar with the ejection issue as my long time Gen4 G17 (shown in many video's) suffered from BTF and I detailed the RSA & Ejector fix in one particular video and about 5000 rounds later, no issues. I will also note that all 4 of my recent, as of Apr 13' manufacture, Gen4's (G19x2, G17 and G34) all run very well. I also took a course with about 15 recent manufacture and right out of the box Gen4 17's and all ran around 1400-1500 rounds during the course without a single issue. I have probably customized some 20 or so recent make Gen4's and as far as I am aware none have reported any issues. Not saying there are not those who might be having issues, as I had personally experienced the problem, however I am pretty comfortable with the newest serial Gen4's. Comfortable enough to suggest them to family, friends and co-workers.

Now for myself, I personally prefer the ergo's and trigger on the Glock. Of course I do my own modifications, but I can better fit the Glock to my preferences relatively easy and for little expense. Granted others who pay for this type of work have more out of pocket expense, but still end up under the cost of the buy-in for the P30. Both are great pistols, but just for myself it would really be splitting hairs but I prefer the Glock for some very small reasons.

Also noticed that since you fellas are mentioning Mr. Vickers I just recalled reading a post of his. He made this comment about 21 hours ago that showed up on my feed for his FB.


I get people asking me all the time which pistol to buy for a) their wife or girlfriend b) concealed carry c) first pistol, etc.

Well I usually tell them the Glock 19 - the best all around Glock made; not necessarily ideal for all purposes but as a general purpose Glock it is my top choice

Watch for my Glock sights coming soon from Wilson Combat and make sure you add all my Glock parts made by Tangodown - I guarantee you will like them !!

The Dumb Gun Collector
11-30-13, 15:55
Well, I agree that the Glock 19 is the best all-around Glock.

LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-30-13, 16:00
Well, I agree that the Glock 19 is the best all-around Glock.

I see what you did there...

Anyways, the 19 is a great GP type of pistol. No doubt about it. There are just better mouse traps.

Biggy
11-30-13, 17:04
I think most people can agree on, if your chosen brand of pistol and the one that you are currently using has proven to be. #1 Reliable in function/operation. #2 The brand has proven to have long term durability (with few if any breakdowns) #3 Has enough inherent accuracy to get the job done #4 Has the trigger and sights (either factory or aftermarket) that lets you get decent practical accuracy from it so you can get hits at speed while using it, are the most important pistol characteristics. Stuff like the price of the pistol, extra mags, small parts availability, bore axis, feel or ergos of the grip frame, etc., while somewhat important are clearly behind the first four IMHO.

I also agree with the above statement that " the Glock 19 is the best all-around Glock " but if we are splitting hairs, I also believe the Glock 17 is the most reliable Glock

Mauser KAR98K
11-30-13, 17:55
Add me to the P30 crowd, though i do not own one. I did rent it, and aside from the LEM trigger, great weapon, light recoil impulse.

OP: if you can afford it, get the P30. It is the "buy once, cry once" pistol. The HK's reliability is vastly greater. The tirgger options though are little to be desired. I would prefer the DA/SA with safety over the LEMs. I did not like the long reset; reminded me too much of the S&W M&Ps' triggers. The V3 trigger I dry fired was adequate, though it could use a lighter hammer spring, mostly for the DA pull.

I have owned a Glock (22), M&Ps and a USP9. I much prefer the USP9 as it is the most reliable and I have much more confidence in accuracy, and, well, I know the damn thing is going to work. I placed a lighter hammer spring in it and the 14 ton DA pull is reduced to a nice 10 pound, and no "wall" either. When I was in the market for an HK, though, I would have bought the P30 instead. The ergos are much better, and it is easier to conceal for concealed carry. (Alas, i might get a P2K for that role after I can get my hands on an USP45.

Again, if you can afford it, and enjoying internet window shopping for deals on mags, and looking hard for a holster, get the P30. Consider it the last handgun you'd buy if that was a reason for you current choices.

Meplat
11-30-13, 20:29
Mostly inter web rumor. I did read a post on HKPro from an industry insider confirming HK will be real easing some new guns this year. He claims that at least one should be extremely popular. Take it for whatever you think it is worth. I for one hope for either a P30SK or a striker fired version of the P30.

I thought they already made a P30SK and just called it the P2000?
I really don't understand the obsession with having a striker fired P30, or what people think it will bring to the table. The P30 is already famously reliable and I think people are mistaken if they believe making it striker fired will somehow make it even more reliable. The only real argument I hear in favor of a striker P30 is lowering the bore-axis, and to be honest that's about the most played out and irrelevant argument I have heard. As for improving the trigger, switching around the entire firing system just to improve the trigger is ridiculous.
I think H&K knows this, and I believe the chances of a striker P30 are nonexistent, but who knows, maybe they will surprise everyone.

Biggy
11-30-13, 20:30
One thing I have always liked about the HK weapons I have owned in the past and HK firearms in general, is their consistent build quality/quality control compared to any of the other major manufacturers. They do not seem to produce many lemons.

Dos Cylindros
11-30-13, 20:38
I thought they already made a P30SK and just called it the P2000?
I really don't understand the obsession with having a striker fired P30, or what people think it will bring to the table. The P30 is already famously reliable and I think people are mistaken if they believe making it striker fired will somehow make it even more reliable. The only real argument I hear in favor of a striker P30 is lowering the bore-axis, and to be honest that's about the most played out and irrelevant argument I have heard. As for improving the trigger, switching around the entire firing system just to improve the trigger is ridiculous.
I think H&K knows this, and I believe the chances of a striker P30 are nonexistent, but who knows, maybe they will surprise everyone.

I don't for one second believe that making the P30 in a striker fired action would make it more reliable. Obviously, it is famously reliable already. I also don't know what it would bring to the table other than another action type to choose from in the HK lineup that could give people (the lower bore axis and trigger snob crowd) a reason to come over to HK and enjoy the fabulous build quality and legendary durability of HK guns. Additionally, were it to be priced cheaper than the P30 (which rumor indicates that at least one of their new offerings will be) it would make it easier to swallow for those people. I already have my P30, holsters and so far 8 mags so I'm cool if they don't do a striker fired gun. That being said, I might pick one up anyway if they do produce it. Variety after all, is the spice of life.

The Dumb Gun Collector
11-30-13, 21:18
I think if anything making it striker fired would make it less reliable.

HKGuns
11-30-13, 22:05
I think if anything making it striker fired would make it less reliable.

Well, it sounds like there may be four of us, at least, that don't get the fascination with HK releasing a striker fired pistol.

Do their other models not go bang with your booger picker on the switch?
Are they going to improve on their already sterling reliability reputation? I don't think so.....
Is it going to shoot more accurately? Don't think so....
Is it going to be more reliable? Don't think so.....

Oh, and you can count on it not being significantly less money, which ought to give folks something real meaty to gripe about.

Think about it, why would HK risk their premium brand reputation as well as cannibalization of other models simply to offer a striker fired pistol. Not likely to happen.


That being said, I might pick one up anyway if they do produce it. Variety after all, is the spice of life.

Yes it is and I likely will too.....But count me in the camp that doesn't care either! :)

Sorry to continue to pollute the thread with this sidebar....It deserves a thread of its own.

Biggy
11-30-13, 22:16
Here are some opinions on pistol trigger action types from one of our SME's and other members from an old thread : https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?108275-Will-striker-fired-pistols-obsolete-the-traditional-type-actions-for-self-defense/page5

But as always use whatever works for you.

Mamiller
11-30-13, 22:17
Glock 19. Have not had any issues with my Gen4.

JPB
11-30-13, 22:21
As someone who still has a multitude on DA/SA handguns (including a USP), and loves HK anything (P7, HK9X fanatic typing here), the system is antiquated and has been surpassed by the striker fired systems as evidenced by the abundance of Glock clones brought to market by the major manufactures. HK is one of the last hold outs. I don't think anyone is arguing that a striker HK would be more reliable than the current HK offerings. HK has reliability and accuracy nailed. It's their triggers that suffer. A striker fired gun with HK accuracy, reliability, and quality would be awesome.

Biggy
11-30-13, 22:45
As someone who still has a multitude on DA/SA handguns (including a USP), and loves HK anything (P7, HK9X fanatic typing here), the system is antiquated and has been surpassed by the striker fired systems as evidenced by the abundance of Glock clones brought to market by the major manufactures. HK is one of the last hold outs. I don't think anyone is arguing that a striker HK would be more reliable than the current HK offerings. HK has reliability and accuracy nailed. It's their triggers that suffer. A striker fired gun with HK accuracy, reliability, and quality would be awesome.

I agree, while maybe not everyone's cup of tea, I think they would sell very well indeed, even with the PPQ selling for quite a bit less. For those that prefer their DA/SA pistols, thats cool, just roll on, but IMHO more than a few of us would like to see a P30 with a Walther PPQ type trigger. I will say that if it ever happens, I believe it will probably be this year. I guess we will find out January 14.

Biggy
11-30-13, 22:48
Glock 19. Have not had any issues with my Gen4.

I am curious about how old it is and how many rounds you have through it.

JPB
11-30-13, 22:56
I am curious about how old it is and how many rounds you have through it.

Well, my old school Gen 2 hucks brass at my face from time to time. It's not quite the "new" phenomenon as it is believed to be here. I've got a few Gen 4s that I don't have enough rounds through to assess, but erratic ejection has always been a "thing" with Glocks.

Amur
12-01-13, 00:12
HK already makes the best striker fired gun on the market.... :cool:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2e3za0g.jpg

Mauser KAR98K
12-01-13, 04:11
HK already makes the best striker fired gun on the market.... :cool:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2e3za0g.jpg

You mean they did, right?

hogarth
12-01-13, 06:58
If people want to invoke the names of big name people with Vickers, try this:

Paul Howe=Glock
Travis Haley=Glocks, 1911s, M&P
Defoor=Glock
Lamb=M&P
Pannone=P07 and Glock
Proctor=Glock
Falla=Glock

We could double this list, no doubt, and still not find someone shooting the P30. And most of the above aren't getting paid to shoot what they shoot. Just a thought.

Gary1911A1
12-01-13, 07:05
Add me to the P30 crowd, though i do not own one. I did rent it, and aside from the LEM trigger, great weapon, light recoil impulse.

OP: if you can afford it, get the P30. It is the "buy once, cry once" pistol. The HK's reliability is vastly greater. The tirgger options though are little to be desired. I would prefer the DA/SA with safety over the LEMs. I did not like the long reset; reminded me too much of the S&W M&Ps' triggers. The V3 trigger I dry fired was adequate, though it could use a lighter hammer spring, mostly for the DA pull.

I have owned a Glock (22), M&Ps and a USP9. I much prefer the USP9 as it is the most reliable and I have much more confidence in accuracy, and, well, I know the damn thing is going to work. I placed a lighter hammer spring in it and the 14 ton DA pull is reduced to a nice 10 pound, and no "wall" either. When I was in the market for an HK, though, I would have bought the P30 instead. The ergos are much better, and it is easier to conceal for concealed carry. (Alas, i might get a P2K for that role after I can get my hands on an USP45.

Again, if you can afford it, and enjoying internet window shopping for deals on mags, and looking hard for a holster, get the P30. Consider it the last handgun you'd buy if that was a reason for you current choices.

I put a lighter mainspring, 12# I believe, in my P2000 and got a trigger almost as good as a Sig. If they ever make the P30 in a striker fired version with a trigger as good as the Walther PPQ I might get one, but I already have the Walther so I'd really would have to like the P30 better.

Gary1911A1
12-01-13, 07:09
HK already makes the best striker fired gun on the market.... :cool:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2e3za0g.jpg

I wish HK would make the P7 again with a polymer frame and a more conventional recoil locking system so their gas retarded locking system wouldn't overheat a polymer frame, but that's unlikely to happen.

LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-01-13, 07:30
If people want to invoke the names of big name people with Vickers, try this:

Paul Howe=Glock
Travis Haley=Glocks, 1911s, M&P
Defoor=Glock
Lamb=M&P
Pannone=P07 and Glock
Proctor=Glock
Falla=Glock

We could double this list, no doubt, and still not find someone shooting the P30. And most of the above aren't getting paid to shoot what they shoot. Just a thought.

I guess I just find this list irrelevant to my decision making. I respect the knowledge and skill sets of these gentlemen, but I've never been the type to wear the same brand of underwear that Costa wears simply because he made that choice on his own.

HKGuns
12-01-13, 08:23
If people want to invoke the names of big name people with Vickers, try this:

Paul Howe=Glock
Travis Haley=Glocks, 1911s, M&P
Defoor=Glock
Lamb=M&P
Pannone=P07 and Glock
Proctor=Glock
Falla=Glock

We could double this list, no doubt, and still not find someone shooting the P30. And most of the above aren't getting paid to shoot what they shoot. Just a thought.

No, you're confusing things quite a bit. Those guys are so "sick" they actually "enjoy" hot BTTF and that is primarily why they shoot that particular platform. :)

Their choices are their choices and made for their reasons. I don't feel compelled to make similar choices.

hogarth
12-01-13, 09:19
I guess I just find this list irrelevant to my decision making. I respect the knowledge and skill sets of these gentlemen, but I've never been the type to wear the same brand of underwear that Costa wears simply because he made that choice on his own.

Sure. Except, if you wanted underwear that can do what his does, then suddenly you might be interested, no?

Just like I find it interesting to know what Consumer Reports car testers drive, or what gear mountain climbers use (if I was going to take up mountain climbing), so I am interested in what these experts use.

Five_Point_Five_Six
12-01-13, 09:19
If people want to invoke the names of big name people with Vickers, try this:

Paul Howe=Glock
Travis Haley=Glocks, 1911s, M&P
Defoor=Glock
Lamb=M&P
Pannone=P07 and Glock
Proctor=Glock
Falla=Glock

We could double this list, no doubt, and still not find someone shooting the P30. And most of the above aren't getting paid to shoot what they shoot. Just a thought.

You forgot one.

Yeager=Glock

You're welcome.

LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-01-13, 10:19
Sure. Except, if you wanted underwear that can do what his does, then suddenly you might be interested, no?

Just like I find it interesting to know what Consumer Reports car testers drive, or what gear mountain climbers use (if I was going to take up mountain climbing), so I am interested in what these experts use.

Agreed. My point was that we are trying to use someone else's decision making to justify what we bought, when in reality we all have a certain set of parameters and a certain decision that must be made. If Haley, LAV, Falla, and Hack all said that the Ruger P95 is the greatest pistol of all time, I might be inclined to believe them, but it wouldnt work for my needs.

But, as will all threads like this, we justify what we paid money for by saying its better than XYZ product. In reality, most go bang, some dont, the rest sit in safes and collect dust.

Brianb23
12-01-13, 10:30
P30 is a combat handgun hence the combat trigger. That's why the usp expert has a match trigger. They can make a better trigger if they want to! All the big names carry glock because (like LAV said) everyone else has them so he uses what is most common. Glocks and HKs are probably neck and neck on reliability, but only HK engineers their barrels not to grenade after a squib round. So they are safer.

jonconsiglio
12-01-13, 11:01
The light LEM is a hell of a trigger, it just takes some getting used too. If I ever buy another HK, that's the trigger it'll have.

I know Glocks have had issues recently, and that can certainly be a deterrent. But they seem to be getting better with the recent guns.

M&Ps have an updated trigger as late last year, so the reset (if that's important to you) and overall feel are improved. The timing was also changed so there's no longer that false reset feel. The barrel got a twist change and in my experience, the new ones do not have the accuracy issues that some older 9mm's had.

If it wasn't for the sights, I'd be content with either the Glock or HK right out of the box. I've swapped back to standard connectors in my gen 3's. I just shoot them better than with the minus or dot connectors. The gen 4's still keep the dot connector though.

I think when comparing these two guns (or the M&P), you really have to get them in your hand and spend some time at the range. Live fire is considerably different than just handling the gun, so I always put rounds through a new gun I'm considering that I haven't owned before. I like the way the Glock shoots. It just works for me. I like the grip as well. I feel the same about the HK.

So, every time I see something like the HK, I ask myself what it does better than the Glocks (and 1911's) I own. The answer for me is that it doesn't do anything truly better, though I'd say it's definitely just as good. Again, this is for me. So what stops me from buying one or something similar, is that I can get what already works for me, cheaper. That's it. It's not about the slight accuracy difference, the feel of the trigger (which I think matters so much less than people say. Maybe when dry firing, but I can get used to just about anything that works), recoil characteristics, etc.

Darryl Bolke is a good buddy of mine, and he's all about the HKs. He loves the LEM triggers and thinks they're an asset to LE and concealed carry.

So, it's really hard to compare these guns in any way but with opinion. So the only way to know what's truly right for us is to get out there and physically compare them.

d90king
12-01-13, 11:04
I would recommend that you run a P30 a bit before jumping in... I tried to make them work for me and simply couldn't get past the oversized controls without altering my grip substantially. That said, I have a very high grip, with long fingers and it might not be an issue for you.

I had issues with constantly interfering with the side stop with my OSH thumb, the only way I could compensate for it was to drop my thumb down to the rail which was less than ideal for me when running the gun hard. They are a fantastic pistol, very reliable, very accurate, great grip angle and damn near bomb proof. I wanted them to work which is why I bought two, but in the end I wasn't willing to sacrifice my shooting in order to make them work. I was also never thrilled with the trigger but was able to train around that aspect.

This gives you an idea of my grip and why I experienced problems.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/70c7cea6-7335-43d4-a4be-15fe96db5a31_zpsd29fb513.jpg (http://s156.photobucket.com/user/d90king/media/70c7cea6-7335-43d4-a4be-15fe96db5a31_zpsd29fb513.jpg.html)

PD Sgt.
12-01-13, 11:08
I am a fan of both pistols, but at the end of the day, for a pistol that I will be using to carry, I will take the G19.

The HK is closer to duty size for me, whereas the G19 falls is that midsize range that I find is easier to conceal year round. If I were looking for a duty pistol between the two, the HK would win. Both are quality pistols, and now it seems that Glock may have their quality problems behind them, the relative gap between the two narrows, especially for the average user.

I think a more even comparison for both size and purpose would be the G19 vs the USP 9 compact.

jonconsiglio
12-01-13, 12:00
This gives you an idea of my grip and why I experienced problems.


Same here Patrick. I can't even use extended slide stops on my Glocks. I wear a medium glove. I grip my guns like Defoor and Bob Vogel. I get my support hand ( my other strong hand ;) ) very high and forward where I even have a hard time with Glocks that had the front of the trigger guard rounded off. The slide lightly brushes the webbing of my hand.

When I had my HKs and carried my HK45c for a short while, I used a less aggressive grip, yet still more forward and higher than most I know. I could never get consistent slide lock. Both of my HK45's were da/SA and had the thumb safety. I think those have a shorter slide lock that the LEM. My P30 did not have the thumb safety. I also had a P2000, USP Professional and USP Expert. None of them would consistently slide lock.

Now, I try to reload before slide lock in most of my training (tactics based training, at least), but that doesn't mean I don't want the slide to lock back on empty.

I typically carry a 17, but used a 19 for this pic since it's what I had near by and needed to text a pic to munch520 and ironman8.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3742/11155691396_a4da47cd49_c.jpg

d90king
12-01-13, 14:29
Yeah, I just got tired of fighting the gun... I still run an Hk 45C, but its not a carry gun and my OSH thumb extends past the SS, so it doesn't give me the problem that the P30 did with the larger grip. With your grip, I can see it being murder and not worth the compromise in grip when running the gun hard. I use the bump out on the Glock frame as a thumb rest, it allows me to exert downward pressure when running hard.... The P30 is a great pistol, its just not for me.

munch520
12-01-13, 14:43
I hear a lot of people coming to the same conclusion. "It's a hell of a gun and has some amazing features but it doesn't work for me".

I'm in the same boat. It's counter intuitive that such an ergonomically amazing pistol would be hard to shoot well.

jonconsiglio
12-01-13, 14:52
Yeah, I just got tired of fighting the gun... I still run an Hk 45C, but its not a carry gun and my OSH thumb extends past the SS, so it doesn't give me the problem that the P30 did with the larger grip. With your grip, I can see it being murder and not worth the compromise in grip when running the gun hard. I use the bump out on the Glock frame as a thumb rest, it allows me to exert downward pressure when running hard.... The P30 is a great pistol, its just not for me.

Yeah, it can get rough with some guns. I actually had to have the slide lock on my carry M&P flattened (back when I carried M&Ps for a while) as they come with that hump like the Vickers does for Glock.

I push down on that hump too for leverage, I'm just at the front of it when I do and contacting it with the area closer to my first knuckle rather than closer to the front. If that makes sense. My Glocks don't move much when I'm shooting, so it's odd for me to go to something like the HK where I have more muzzle flip.

Actually, 1911's feel odd to me know as I have to consciously think about not extending my hand past the trigger guard.

The Dumb Gun Collector
12-01-13, 15:33
I have a bad time holding the G19 slide open if I use anything other than the standard slide release. If I am running a timer I will accidentally lock the slide back from time to time, even on the standard lever. This doesn't happen with the g17, oddly .

I also find that if I have been shooting Glocks a while I will accidentally hold the levers down on my Hk45c (which has similar controls to the P30). If I have been shooting my HK a while I tend to hold the slide open on the Glock. All in all, neither situation is ideal (although having the slide lock back on a loaded mag is a bigger disaster than a failure to lock back on a empty mag). The best modern pistol, in terms of controls, is the M&P. To me, the M&P has an ideal control layout. I also think the trigger is excellent, but as I have established before, I try not to let myself use any particular trigger as a crutch.

MountainRaven
12-01-13, 15:55
The only problem I ever had with a P30 was solved with a dremel. Chop the slide locks, grind new serrations into the stubs that are left for grip when locking the pistol open.

It's not like its the actual frame (which people are so fond of modifying on Glocks and M&Ps) or even the slide (another part people are fond of making modifications to). It's ~$80 worth of parts that can readily and easily be replaced.

YVK
12-01-13, 15:59
Reading through this thread suddenly generated a question.


I was talking to a famous firearms instructor (and one of the best known authorities on firearms) and he made a bold statement to me the other day. The days of recommending Glock's as the best choice is OVER.

No, Glock has not fixed their issues. No, it wasn't ONE batch.

The most accurate and reliable pistol made (currently) is the HK P30.


C4

So, did he then switch to a P30 for personal carry and teaching needs?

El Cid
12-01-13, 16:28
If people want to invoke the names of big name people with Vickers, try this:

Paul Howe=Glock
Travis Haley=Glocks, 1911s, M&P
Defoor=Glock
Lamb=M&P
Pannone=P07 and Glock
Proctor=Glock
Falla=Glock

We could double this list, no doubt, and still not find someone shooting the P30. And most of the above aren't getting paid to shoot what they shoot. Just a thought.
I'm 99.9% sure Frank Proctor was using an M&P for his class this last August. Of course, just because trainer "X" uses brand "Y" as a sidearm doesn't mean we all should. I expect most of them would tell you to use what works for you within reason (i.e. Don't choose a Hipoint).

OP, sidearms are intensely personal and we all have different size hands, fingers, arm strength, etc. Unless restricted by policy or law, choose the gun that best fits your hand. Borrow/rent as many options as you can. The Glock will serve you well and with the Gen 4 you have four backstrap choices - 2 of which have beaver tails. The Grip Force Adapter gives you a beaver tail with the grip angle of your Hi Power. The biggest advantage though I see is price. You can buy lots of accessories and ammo with the Glock, or even a second Glock for the price of the HK.

An HK P30 is in the class of guns that will work when it needs to so long as you do your part. My only recommendation would be an LEM trigger or get a variant with a manual safety and carry it cocked and locked. I see no reason for anyone to use DA/SA triggers.

Surf
12-01-13, 17:01
A couple thoughts, the first in a form of a story from a course that I attended as a student....

While at this course another fella that I have known for a long time and shot with on more that one occasion mentioned, "Hey Surf, I thought you were a XYZ pistol guy?" My response as I holstered the pistol on my left hip, "Hey man, you don't miss much do you?" His reply "Nope I have a pretty keen eye and sharp memory, it's all in the details ya know." So I replied, "Well did you ever notice that I am not a lefty either?" He had to laugh. Not like I am anyone special, but when I do teach I will often be seen running a variety of weapons that are usually found within my student base. I may also attend a course or teach a course and run a particular weapon which may be different from my own first choice preference. I know many of the people working in the industry perhaps mentioned in this thread that may do the same thing. I am sure many here who are posting in this thread might do it too. However if one watches close enough, it is pretty obvious what my preferences are and the same goes for anyone who shoots a lot, from the hobbyist to those who work professionally in the shooting world. Everyone has a preference and not one shoe size fits all.

We need to consider that many individuals are tied to the community, some more than others. Biting the proverbial hand that feeds one is not always the best choice. Even if the hand is not directly feeding them if it is not a safety or other FUBAR reason, it is often seen as a better business choice to keep a more even keel when making hard line or definitive statements one way or another. A good way to look at it, which has been mentioned above, if a professional within the industry regularly chooses to use a certain piece of gear or weapon type without being compensated for that choice one way or another, is a good indication of their own personal preference.

For myself it is not hard to say that the P30 is a very good pistol, as it is. However as other mentions I have my own little quirks and nuances in which I may perform better with a different weapon. I have zero issues if someone else prefers the P30 over the G19 or vise versa. I am comfortable in my own skin and my own decisions that I have made from my own personal experiences. Arguing the point into the ground seems like playground "I gotta be right" BS or how we so often see individuals arguing to justify their purchases. Give your opinion and move on....Oh wait, then that would not be the intarweb. :)

RHINOWSO
12-01-13, 17:13
But how can we feel good about ourselves without the knowledge that we use the same firearm as MR. XYZ (insert famous firearm dude)? ;)

Glocks work very well. HKs work very well. M&Ps work very well.

They don't always work for each and every person that tries them. Hence variety and the ability to choose different firearms.

In the end I have more respect for someown who owns and uses a firearm, learning it inside and out, as opposed to someone who changes regularly for what I call the "flavor of the month / year". It's an easy trap to fall into, trying to keep up with the Jonses...

Rezarf2
12-01-13, 17:18
I've enjoyed shooting both, the HK is the single best feeling gun I have ever held, it's like they molded the frame from my hands... That said I own 2 G19's, for me it's the aftermarket support and carry size.

thebarracuda
12-01-13, 20:11
If you're going to have one, then the g19. Like many have said, the ease of which to obtain anything needed for pistol. Parts, service, mags etc. I'm sure the P30 is an excellent pistol as well.

The Dumb Gun Collector
12-01-13, 21:36
I figure if you are going to have one, you get the best built one. But seriously, who among us really has only one? LOL

Wiggity
12-01-13, 22:24
I've had both. I like the g19 better.


The P30 has a better feeling grip, but I shoot it worse and the trigger feels straight up terrible to me.

1_click_off
12-01-13, 23:03
I had a P30 V3, I sold it and got a V1, then another V1, then got a G19 at a good deal. I found that I shoot the G19 faster, but just as well as the P30's. I don't have a shot timer, but I know I am faster with the G19. Groups are the same.

If you just want something to carry and shoot, G19.
If you are going to run it hard, P30.

Psalms144.1
12-02-13, 07:07
don't have a shot timer, but I know I am faster with the G19.
If you just want something to carry and shoot, G19.
If you are going to run it hard, P30.Really? How do you measure "faster" without a timer?

Interestingly, the fact that we've reached the point where people are categorizing Glocks as pistols you can't run hard is sad on so many levels. I know I've done my share of bashing of recent Glocks since the 2010 fiasco started, but, seriously, has Glock's reputation been that damaged?

In any event, I'll go back to running side-by-side drills with the two pistols on a timer and against low probability targets, and see if I can ever decide which is better...

Regards,

Kevin

Crow Hunter
12-02-13, 07:34
To the OP.

I have been a Glock owner/shooter since circa 1998. My model of preference is the G19 and has been since 2008 or so. (Prior to that it was the G23) I recently got the idea that I wanted to get a "G19 sized" DA/SA sidearm. So I started doing research and fondling guns. Based on my research I decided that I really wanted to go HK to see what all the fuss was about. I finally found a P2000 in .40 and a P30L in 9mm at a local Gander Mtn. I tried both. I really didn't like the feel or controls layout of the P30 at all, particularly the slide stop. I really liked the P2000 though and I really wasn't badly put off by the DA pull on that particular example. I asked if they had a 9mm model in stock, they didn't.

So when I got home, I went to Gunbroker and started looking...

It opened my eyes.

Just for Poops and Giggles do a search on Gunbroker for HK P30 (or P2000) all calibers and then do one for JUST Glock 19. (Then do one for just Glock:eek:)

With the assumption that Gunbroker is a statistically representative slice of the gun market, although I think it is actually tilted more to the higher end market and may actually be over representing HK, you can see why there are more instances of issues with Glock 19s than other firearms. It will also give you a good idea of why there are so many holsters/sights/aftermarket for Glock and so few for the HK products.

It might help you make a decision. It did me.

1_click_off
12-02-13, 08:28
Really? How do you measure "faster" without a timer?

Interestingly, the fact that we've reached the point where people are categorizing Glocks as pistols you can't run hard is sad on so many levels. I know I've done my share of bashing of recent Glocks since the 2010 fiasco started, but, seriously, has Glock's reputation been that damaged?

In any event, I'll go back to running side-by-side drills with the two pistols on a timer and against low probability targets, and see if I can ever decide which is better...

Regards,

Kevin

Hey Kevin,

I knew that statement would get that reply, but anyhow it is kind of like driving a car without looking at the speedometer. Been driving long enough I can tell when I am driving 40 or 45 without looking. Same type of "feeling" here.

I never stated that Glocks have a problem. It is just in the facts that the HK's are made out of superior materials so it would make sense they would be a superior product.

I have owned a few glocks and a few HK's and others. I am currently carrying a G19 and the p30's are in the safe. Been carrying the G19 for several months. I like it, I trust it, but sometimes I like to shoot something different than a basic tool.

I can certainly get the shot timer and prove what I already know.

NongShim
12-03-13, 07:54
I'd go G19 all the way. I've always wanted to like HK pistols, because lets face it, EVERYTHING HK makes is sexy. Maybe it's the mystique of owning something that's always in movies, maybe it's the rarity or at best uncommonness of HK stuff. Maybe they have the same design people as Apple; they design stuff that is visually appealing to behold, and they make stuff that feels good to play with.

Here's why I wouldn't chose a P30, however. HK pistols have the worst triggers I've ever felt. USPs, P30s, P2000s-all have horrendous triggers. To me they feel worse than anything put out by Taurus or Sig Sauer. HKs also are also very tall over the hand. I've not measured them, but they feel taller than Sigs. As physics go, you'll have to work harder to compensate for the fulcrum effect during recoil.

I think they also built the gun disproportionately. It has a slide length roughly comparable to the G19, but it has a grip/frame size comparable to the G17 or a M&P. The only reason to carry a G19 is that it has a shorter butt, and is therefore easier to conceal than a G17. The barrel length plays a much smaller part in the difference in ability to conceal one pistol over another. A more equal type of comparison between the P30 and Glock, in my mind, would be to have a G17 frame with a G19 slide on top...stupid. If I'm going to have a full sized frame, you better believe I'm going to have a full sized slide. So, if I got a P30 it would be the P30L, which is a huge pistol and not really comparable to the G19. The P30 is a huge pistol too, but inefficiently huge with it's big grip, TALL slide, and short barrel. I think the P2000 is a much better comparison to the G19.

I own more HKs currently than I ever thought I would. I'd like to get a P30L, but just to have one. I just want one because I like playing with different stuff, and guns are cool. If I could only have one handgun, therefore it would need to be easy to shoot, and also easy to conceal when I need it to be hidden, I'd chose a G19 any day of the week.

jstalford
12-03-13, 09:09
I figure if you are going to have one, you get the best built one. But seriously, who among us really has only one? LOL

I only have one :)...and it's a G19. I went back and forth between pretty much everything on the market including HK, M&P, etc. In the end it came down to PPQ and 19. 19 won out b/c I could get the sights I wanted and it's smaller in every dimension. IMHO the 19 is the best sized handgun on the market if you're only going to have one. I liked the trigger and grip on the PPQ better but for whatever reason, I shoot the 19 better, so that's what I kept. I have a gen 4 and it's been good to go so far, but have an apex extractor lying around just in case.

LHQuattro
12-03-13, 10:39
I think much of it depends on carry method.
For traditional strong side hip carry, the G19 is pretty ideal, and is the obvious choice to blend comfort, ability to conceal, capacity, capability, etc. (That's assuming you get a good one)

Appendix carry, P30 all the way. For that, I much prefer the P30 with its exposed hammer and longer trigger pull. It adds a big margin of safety for me when holstering my gun, being able to ride the hammer when holstering. The barrel/slide length of the P30 is ideal for me for AIWB carry, being basically the same length as the G19 but more contoured. The added grip length there doesn't matter in that position (assuming use of a good holster).

And, I just flat shoot the P30 LEM better than anything I've tried with any trigger (DAO, 1911, Glock, M&P). Splits are a touch slower (.23-.25) on 7 yd bill drills (vs .20-.23 with my APEXed M&P)...but holy crap am I more accurate and more consistent at everything else. I've really come to like that "TLG" LEM trigger.

Dislikes of the P30:
-wish it held another round or two. However, it appears that magazine springs don't wear out as fast as glocks/M&Ps, etc. So maybe 15 rounds here is about right. Mags seem pretty bomber, fairly cheap.
- reset is long. Took some practice to not short stroke it. Again, splits are .02 slower.
- the slide release lever is a little too low. I had to adapt my grip so that the slide will lock back. No problems now, with the support side thumb tucked low on the trigger guard.
- mag well is a little tight. Wish it was opened up a little more like the M&P, or had options for a small speed chute. Minor quibble.
- wish there were CTC lasergrips for it. Really miss that after shooting an M&P. I shoot an M&P/laser better in low light than any other gun by a big margin.

anyway, P30 has been the right choice for me. Fits my carry style, stupid reliable, crazy accurate, and weirdly enough I shoot it better across the course.
But we're not all the same. I still recommend the G19 (assuming its a good one!) as the default do-it-all pistol. However, I don't recommend AIWB for everyone.

Talon167
12-03-13, 10:44
For a carry gun I prefer a SAO or DAO set up. So I say G19. However, if that P30 was a V1, I would say P30.

19852
12-03-13, 11:23
I would like to thank all who took the time to respond. There were many well thought out concepts. As many already have said it comes down to what works best for me the shooter.
When I rented the Glock I found I shot it as well, right away, as the Browning I had been shooting for a while. Lighter and more size efficient, without the mag disconnect and much less expensive. What's not to like? I recently sold the Browning, a good gun that doesn't do enough things well to keep. I am not a collector so I only keep those firearms I feel I can actually use.

A P-2000 sounds like it might be better for carry, about the same size as a G19. I have carried AIWB and IWB. Can't decide which I like better but I do know I am not comfortable with a Glock AIWB.

Thanks you.

WickedWillis
12-03-13, 11:41
I would like to thank all who took the time to respond. There were many well thought out concepts. As many already have said it comes down to what works best for me the shooter.
When I rented the Glock I found I shot it as well, right away, as the Browning I had been shooting for a while. Lighter and more size efficient, without the mag disconnect and much less expensive. What's not to like? I recently sold the Browning, a good gun that doesn't do enough things well to keep. I am not a collector so I only keep those firearms I feel I can actually use.

A P-2000 sounds like it might be better for carry, about the same size as a G19. I have carried AIWB and IWB. Can't decide which I like better but I do know I am not comfortable with a Glock AIWB.

Thanks you.

The Glock should be just as safe as any other pistol when carrying AIWB. You need to realize though, you are taking a risk with any firearm being carried in that manor, and you should make extra precautions doing so.

LHQuattro
12-03-13, 13:08
The Glock should be just as safe as any other pistol when carrying AIWB. You need to realize though, you are taking a risk with any firearm being carried in that manor, and you should make extra precautions doing so.

Respectfully...no.

Its just as safe once its in the holster and the trigger protected. Its the getting it there part. I'm not so worried about accidentally pulling the trigger, its the getting anything (shirt tail, zipper pull, debris, whatever) caught on the trigger as you holster. Super easy for the gun like a glock with a relatively short trigger pull to go off if anything contacts the trigger, particularly without a hammer or manual safety.

Add in the fact that way too many people "speed holster", and even the careful are tempted to do it as they practice more and more reps. That "hard break" mental reset thing gets less and less likely as you try to get reps in to decrease your draw time. Eventually most people are going to get complacent and shove the gun in there without looking or feeling for resistance. It only takes one screw up.

Anyway, not that carrying a glock AIWB can't be done safely, but there is just very little margin of error with a glock, and nobody is perfect 100% of the time.


Having an exposed hammer can add a big margin of safety, if used wisely. By applying downward pressure only on the hammer as you holster...there's no way to make the gun go off, even if the trigger catches on something.
Having a longer trigger pull adds a margin of safety as well. It gives the brain a little more time feel that the resistance of the trigger getting pulled. Not perfect solution, but a little safer.

I say all this as I wear a Glock 19 AIWB almost every day. I do it, but am concerned about it. Not real crazy about any high rep live fire days at the range drawing and holstering from AIWB.
I'd much rather be carrying my P30 in that fashion for the added margin of safety. And I will make the switch completely to the P30 once my SME holster comes in.
Its not perfectly safe, but its safer and more forgiving of human error.

WickedWillis
12-03-13, 13:30
Respectfully...no.

Its just as safe once its in the holster and the trigger protected. Its the getting it there part. I'm not so worried about accidentally pulling the trigger, its the getting anything (shirt tail, zipper pull, debris, whatever) caught on the trigger as you holster. Super easy for the gun like a glock with a relatively short trigger pull to go off if anything contacts the trigger, particularly without a hammer or manual safety.

Add in the fact that way too many people "speed holster", and even the careful are tempted to do it as they practice more and more reps. That "hard break" mental reset thing gets less and less likely as you try to get reps in to decrease your draw time. Eventually most people are going to get complacent and shove the gun in there without looking or feeling for resistance. It only takes one screw up.

Anyway, not that carrying a glock AIWB can't be done safely, but there is just very little margin of error with a glock, and nobody is perfect 100% of the time.


Having an exposed hammer can add a big margin of safety, if used wisely. By applying downward pressure only on the hammer as you holster...there's no way to make the gun go off, even if the trigger catches on something.
Having a longer trigger pull adds a margin of safety as well. It gives the brain a little more time feel that the resistance of the trigger getting pulled. Not perfect solution, but a little safer.

I say all this as I wear a Glock 19 AIWB almost every day. I do it, but am concerned about it. Not real crazy about any high rep live fire days at the range drawing and holstering from AIWB.
I'd much rather be carrying my P30 in that fashion for the added margin of safety. And I will make the switch completely to the P30 once my SME holster comes in.
Its not perfectly safe, but its safer and more forgiving of human error.

So you agree then the AIWB should be done by an experienced shooter and not by someone new to firearms? The femoral artery, as well as other arteries (especially in us guys) could very easily be punctured by a negligent discharge. It's happened before, and unfortunately it will happen again.

C4IGrant
12-03-13, 13:39
So you agree then the AIWB should be done by an experienced shooter and not by someone new to firearms?


I know I do. Most people don't even look the gun into the holster, but carry AIWB. Ugh.



C4

LHQuattro
12-03-13, 13:43
So you agree then the AIWB should be done by an experienced shooter and not by someone new to firearms?

Yes, very much so. And not just experienced, plenty of experienced people who shouldn't be doing it either.

Sorry, should have delved more in to the extra precautions as you mentioned earlier. The "hard break" after shooting, slow and cautious holstering, looking and feeling for obstructions, inserting the muzzle then canting the holster out away from the hips, etc.

I figure if AIWB ever stops scaring me, then I'm too complacent and its time to stop.

WickedWillis
12-03-13, 13:48
Yes, very much so. And not just experienced, plenty of experienced people who shouldn't be doing it either.

Sorry, should have delved more in to the extra precautions as you mentioned earlier. The "hard break" after shooting, slow and cautious holstering, looking and feeling for obstructions, inserting the muzzle then canting the holster out away from the hips, etc.

I figure if AIWB ever stops scaring me, then I'm too complacent and its time to stop.

Very well said.

Trajan
12-03-13, 13:51
Respectfully...no.

Its just as safe once its in the holster and the trigger protected. Its the getting it there part. I'm not so worried about accidentally pulling the trigger, its the getting anything (shirt tail, zipper pull, debris, whatever) caught on the trigger as you holster. Super easy for the gun like a glock with a relatively short trigger pull to go off if anything contacts the trigger, particularly without a hammer or manual safety.

Add in the fact that way too many people "speed holster", and even the careful are tempted to do it as they practice more and more reps. That "hard break" mental reset thing gets less and less likely as you try to get reps in to decrease your draw time. Eventually most people are going to get complacent and shove the gun in there without looking or feeling for resistance. It only takes one screw up.

Anyway, not that carrying a glock AIWB can't be done safely, but there is just very little margin of error with a glock, and nobody is perfect 100% of the time.


Having an exposed hammer can add a big margin of safety, if used wisely. By applying downward pressure only on the hammer as you holster...there's no way to make the gun go off, even if the trigger catches on something.
Having a longer trigger pull adds a margin of safety as well. It gives the brain a little more time feel that the resistance of the trigger getting pulled. Not perfect solution, but a little safer.

I say all this as I wear a Glock 19 AIWB almost every day. I do it, but am concerned about it. Not real crazy about any high rep live fire days at the range drawing and holstering from AIWB.
I'd much rather be carrying my P30 in that fashion for the added margin of safety. And I will make the switch completely to the P30 once my SME holster comes in.
Its not perfectly safe, but its safer and more forgiving of human error.

Simple, look into your holster and see if there is anything in there. I'm now using neon green holsters to aid in this. I also don't consider the fact that others speed holstering to be a hindrance to what I do, because I don't do that.

Ironically enough, I have only ever had a shirt get in the way of a reholster while using 4 o'clock OWB (shirt came untucked back there). Easier to see what's going on right in front of you.

http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x447/OptimusTrajan/IMG_1043.jpg (http://s1182.photobucket.com/user/OptimusTrajan/media/IMG_1043.jpg.html)

brickboy240
12-03-13, 13:53
Another vote "yes" on the Glock 19.

Been a long time Glock 17/19 shooter and swear by the guns. Reliable and easy to mod out and they just flat out run.

The HK P-30 does look nice but it is more expensive and is d/a-s/a, mags are more expensive and holster choices are not as great.

The Glock 17/19 is usually the answer for 99% of the "what 9mm should I buy/carry?" threads around here. Don't see that changing any time soon, really.

LHQuattro
12-03-13, 14:18
Simple, look into your holster and see if there is anything in there. I'm now using neon green holsters to aid in this. I also don't consider the fact that others speed holstering to be a hindrance to what I do, because I don't do that.

Ironically enough, I have only ever had a shirt get in the way of a reholster while using 4 o'clock OWB (shirt came untucked back there). Easier to see what's going on right in front of you.

http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x447/OptimusTrajan/IMG_1043.jpg (http://s1182.photobucket.com/user/OptimusTrajan/media/IMG_1043.jpg.html)

I like it! That neon green looks like a good idea.

Looking at the holster is part of my holstering process. Still, can't always see in there (darkness, etc). Its only one of the safeguards for me.

I too find that its much more likely to get something caught in the holster/trigger guard on the strong side hip. And its harder to see/feel into.
But, the consequences of that are merely really bad....not guaranteed catastrophic like a shot to the femoral artery or junk.

YVK
12-03-13, 14:44
A P-2000 sounds like it might be better for carry, about the same size as a G19. I have carried AIWB and IWB. Can't decide which I like better but I do know I am not comfortable with a Glock AIWB.

Thanks you.

P-2000 is an awesome carry gun, and some people said they shot it better than P-30. Worth checking it out.

I wouldn't carry Glock in AIWB either. I know a bunch of switched-on people who are OK with it, but my reluctance doesn't concern me a bit. It was one of the reasons I went from G-19 to P30, took a hit with my performance and scores, spent idiotic money on a trigger job, and stuck with it until I got back to acceptable level of shooting. It goes beyond reholstering too.
Hammer and trigger length pull do not provide immunity from screw-ups, but they do stack the odds in your way.

pinzgauer
12-03-13, 14:47
Just for Poops and Giggles do a search on Gunbroker for HK P30 (or P2000) all calibers and then do one for JUST Glock 19. (Then do one for just Glock:eek:)

Do the same with Bushmaster and Noveske, KAC, DD, etc.

Everyone understands G has the largest installed base. Probably with reason 5-10 years ago.

Not sure that's as relevant now, unless you just have to have that punisher trim.

I've never had to reactively replace a single part on an HK anything, and the proactive/wear parts are easily available.

Yet wore out a SW k frame. Brother broke a 669 frame. Had to get parts for a worn out blackhawk in .41

So just recognize that when folks take about the wonderful parts availability for G's it may not impress some. Not a bad thing, just not a major factor.

Crow Hunter
12-03-13, 18:07
Do the same with Bushmaster and Noveske, KAC, DD, etc.

Everyone understands G has the largest installed base. Probably with reason 5-10 years ago.

Not sure that's as relevant now, unless you just have to have that punisher trim.

I've never had to reactively replace a single part on an HK anything, and the proactive/wear parts are easily available.

Yet wore out a SW k frame. Brother broke a 669 frame. Had to get parts for a worn out blackhawk in .41

So just recognize that when folks take about the wonderful parts availability for G's it may not impress some. Not a bad thing, just not a major factor.

I was leaning more towards the statistical chances for problems showing up in guns.

For every 1 HK P30 that is out there of any caliber there are nearly 10x as many just Glock 19s. If you looked at the number of 9mm P30's vs the number of Glock 19s there are probably 100x as many.

So a 1% problem rate on Glocks will show up much more than the same on an HK. You could probably have 3x as many problem HK P30s and hear less about them than a lower problem rate on Glocks just from the total number of guns out there. I know a guy on another site who had a P30 for nearly a year and he never could overcome a constant BTF issue even after contacting HK. He is a HK fan and continues to use several P2000s that he likes a lot. That single BTF issue on that single 9mm P30 is the statistical equivalent of nearly 100 or more Glock 19s having the same problem if you looked at it on Glock overall vs the P30 overall, it is even higher.

That being said, I agree, a gun has to be pretty odd/old to not be able to find parts for it somewhere and that shouldn't be the primary reason for choosing a particular firearm. But it will make life much easier if you can find holsters/sights/other ancillary components from a variety of manufacturers versus being tied to just a couple that may decide to stop offering them.

I know that, along with some research of other sites made me personally reconsider. There is one site that is a very strong advocate of the HK P30. Looking at the equipment exchange, the number of P30s that are for sale there versus the total number out there compared to other makes of weapons gives me pause statistically as well.

pinzgauer
12-03-13, 19:04
So a 1% problem rate on Glocks will show up much more than the same on an HK. You could probably have 3x as many problem HK P30s and hear less about them than a lower problem rate on Glocks just from the total number of guns out there.


Valid point for sure. I call it Chrysler minivan syndrome. (Or ford explorer)

Both sold more than all their Import competitors combined, way more. (In the late 90's ford sold more *2 door* exploders than Toyo/Nissan/Isuzu/honda/mazda suvs of any type!)

So agreed, you are simply more likely to hear of a problem.

Crow Hunter
12-03-13, 19:22
Valid point for sure. I call it Chrysler minivan syndrome. (Or ford explorer)

Both sold more than all their Import competitors combined, way more. (In the late 90's ford sold more *2 door* exploders than Toyo/Nissan/Isuzu/honda/mazda suvs of any type!)

So agreed, you are simply more likely to hear of a problem.

Was that a Freudian slip?

:laugh:

JusticeM4
12-03-13, 20:12
I really, really wanted to fall in love with the G19. I like Glock pistols, I do, and I think they've earned a very strong reputation for a good reason. Very minimalist with focus on function before anything else. At least that is what everyone told me. All the pros seemed to love theirs and rave about how it was the perfect pistol for most people. It was reliable, accurate, not quite a full size, yet not quite a compact. And then I bought my first G19, a Gen 3, in 2011, right at the height of their problems and the pistol I had was a nightmare. BTF just about every other round, brass, steel, mil-surp, Winchester, Remington, defense ammo, etc. My Oakleys had no less than 8-10 good dings in the lenses right over the eyes within 2 range sessions and my forehead had a couple red marks from being slapped with hot brass. And I had more than a few FTE problems. I contacted Glock and the people I spoke to were, in all honesty, complete dicks. I tend to be very polite and try to convey myself with respect to others, these people both treated me like I was a moron and acted as if I wasted their time. I asked if I could get a new ejector and extractor, as research I had done led me to believe that was the problem, they basically told me they would not send the parts out, I had to send it in on warranty. I still don't understand this because at the time I read on the forums more than a few people who had no problem getting the new (at the time) parts.

So, I waited. Then the Apex extractor came out. It helped, but the problem was not altogether solved and I still had the same issues, just less often, but it still annoyed me to no end when it happened. I put the G19 away for a while, disappointed, and went back to shooting my M&P and my 1911 for a while. Then I got an offer at a gun show to trade my old G19 and get $300 off for a new G4 G17, which I did. I had hoped this would be the ticket, since many people online were insisting that the Gen 4 Glocks were devoid of the issue. Went to the range the first time and no problems, but I only shot 50 rounds. Next time I came back with about 200 rounds and, surprise, BTF all day.

I sold my G4 G17 at the beginning of October, and at this point I don't think I will ever buy a Glock product again between the poor performance of their current offerings and the very poor CS I experienced, at least not until they have built their reputation back up to where it seemed to be before the late gen 3/gen 4 period. Again, I *really* wanted to be a G19 fanboy like all the other guys, and no matter how much I tried, it always seemed to be a problem. I picked up a P30V1 about a week or two later and after about 600 rounds so far, I haven't had an issue so far. Yes, it was nearly double the cost of the Glock, and that is a big con, but for the headache I had with Glock, I wish I had of gone with H&K in the first place.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Same experiences here with the BTF issues on Glock19 Gen4.

I too like Glocks, but even the brand new Gen4 G19's still have BTF issues with I don't understand. I've always been a M&P guy but decided to try the Koolaid last year.

I shot my friend's brand new Gen4 along side my Gen3 and his was definitely having the BTF issues. On a Gen4 gun, to me this is unacceptable. My Gen3 didn't have the issues thankfully, and a recently purchased G23 Gen2 doesn't either.
I was very lucky to buy myG19 Gen3 in near perfect condition last year for $360 (police trade-in) at a gunshow -- a needle in a haystack find. It looked brand new and was probably hardly shot by the previous LEO owner. Was very lucky no one noticed it and bought it before I got there. I do like it, but I'm by no means a 'fanboy'

ralph
12-03-13, 22:41
I was leaning more towards the statistical chances for problems showing up in guns.

For every 1 HK P30 that is out there of any caliber there are nearly 10x as many just Glock 19s. If you looked at the number of 9mm P30's vs the number of Glock 19s there are probably 100x as many.

So a 1% problem rate on Glocks will show up much more than the same on an HK. You could probably have 3x as many problem HK P30s and hear less about them than a lower problem rate on Glocks just from the total number of guns out there. I know a guy on another site who had a P30 for nearly a year and he never could overcome a constant BTF issue even after contacting HK. He is a HK fan and continues to use several P2000s that he likes a lot. That single BTF issue on that single 9mm P30 is the statistical equivalent of nearly 100 or more Glock 19s having the same problem if you looked at it on Glock overall vs the P30 overall, it is even higher.

That being said, I agree, a gun has to be pretty odd/old to not be able to find parts for it somewhere and that shouldn't be the primary reason for choosing a particular firearm. But it will make life much easier if you can find holsters/sights/other ancillary components from a variety of manufacturers versus being tied to just a couple that may decide to stop offering them.

I know that, along with some research of other sites made me personally reconsider. There is one site that is a very strong advocate of the HK P30. Looking at the equipment exchange, the number of P30s that are for sale there versus the total number out there compared to other makes of weapons gives me pause statistically as well.

I remember talking to Grant one time about what the production differences between Glock, S&W, HK. And he told me that compared to the other two, HK is rather small, My P-30, (bought this spring) has a serial# in the 41,000 range...according to the envelope with the spent casing in it, It was manufactured around 8/22/2012 (give or take a couple of days) so, 41,000 divided by 8 months gives us 5125 units a month or 61,500 a year,(assuming they produce P-30's all year.) of course, these are very rough figures, not to be take too seriously. Factor in total production vs what's actually imported into the U.S.(God only knows) and I guess this could explain why you don't see them near as often as say, a Glock or a M&P..

montrala
12-04-13, 10:37
I remember talking to Grant one time about what the production differences between Glock, S&W, HK. And he told me that compared to the other two, HK is rather small, My P-30, (bought this spring) has a serial# in the 41,000 range...according to the envelope with the spent casing in it, It was manufactured around 8/22/2012 (give or take a couple of days) so, 41,000 divided by 8 months gives us 5125 units a month or 61,500 a year,(assuming they produce P-30's all year.) of course, these are very rough figures, not to be take too seriously. Factor in total production vs what's actually imported into the U.S.(God only knows) and I guess this could explain why you don't see them near as often as say, a Glock or a M&P..

If your serial number looks like "129-041xxx" that means, your pistol is one of 41,000-something units made since start of serial production (2006 - mine, made in 2006 was under 129-0002xx). Because HK does not use constant manufacture, It could well be last batch in 2012 (it was not, because I've seen them on the line in October, but...) so let's divide 41000 by 6 years - this makes less than 7000 units per year - around 10 times less than you tough.

But you are right: HK is small business (especially compared to companies like S&W or FN Herstal or Beretta). Actually it is more like advanced engineering company (in area of small arms) than mass production manufacturer. What you pay in HK is mostly for (high) costs of R&D, testing, quality management, advanced materials and advanced manufacturing techniques. Because HK produces in (relatively) small quantities, this makes big per unit cost. Glock did not do any serious R&D in 30 years (let's not call Gen4 serious change - it's face lifting) and with higher volumes of basically one product, they can use effect of scale to cut down price (no wonder why Glock distributors can sell for eg. G26 for $270 on LE contract). In last 12 years HK designed and introduced P2000, P2000SK, P30, P30L, HK45, HK45C, MP7, HK416, MG4, HK121, HK417, HKG28, GMG - that is huge investment and HK customer do pay for this. Those who do not want to pay for that, they just do not buy from HK.

BTT I think that for carry use better equivalent for G19 would be P2000. P30 is in compact class, but it was designed for uniformed carry (originally for German Border Guard). I do prefer to carry HK over Glock, because I have more confidence in HK. But those things are very dependent on personal preference and choices. When I choose HK I already had strong dislike for Glock - it just did not fit me. I was going to get CZ P-01 or Walther P99 - P2000 was my last minute choice that I did not regret (in long run - in short run I had lot of doubts, as I could not get used to LEM trigger for quite some time).

Cylinder Head
12-04-13, 13:29
People always stress parts availability for Glocks, because Glocks need replacement parts often.

HK's just don't, and HKUSA has been excellent to me and others.

jonconsiglio
12-04-13, 14:02
People always stress parts availability for Glocks, because Glocks need replacement parts often.

HK's just don't, and HKUSA has been excellent to me and others.

Seriously?

I know HKs are good guns but in my many tens of thousands of rounds through Glocks, nothing has needed replaced due to breakage other than springs as part of maintenance, as with any firearm.

When I shot M&Ps, I broke two firing pins.

gtmtnbiker98
12-04-13, 14:06
Everybody has their sacred cow, doesn't matter what you say. Just pick your poison and move on. All the talk about availability of spare parts is wasteful thinking. Just how many spare parts does one need? Seriously? After all, most who worry about the availability of spare parts shoot like a whopping 500-rounds a year, but type 50,000 posts on Internet forums. Pick what works and move on, already.

jonconsiglio
12-04-13, 14:24
Everybody has their sacred cow, doesn't matter what you say. Just pick your poison and move on. All the talk about availability of spare parts is wasteful thinking. Just how many spare parts does one need? Seriously? After all, most who worry about the availability of spare parts shoot like a whopping 500-rounds a year, but type 50,000 posts on Internet forums. Pick what works and move on, already.

People will use any argument they can find to justify their emotional attachment.

I buy and shoot what works. When it no longer works for me, I look to improve it if it comes to that. I just don't get the back and forth on this shit.

How many P30's you think just got sold because Grant mentioned "someone" thinks it's now the most reliable.

So many have this insane belief that because there's been a few issues with an otherwise good manufacturer, that now even the good ones you already have will ultimately fail.

It wasn't until I got over the dumb shit and realized what I should be worrying about is what may be at the other end of my gun, not what's on it, that I became a good shooter. When I started to attend training for tactics instead of shooting based classes is when I realized there's a whole hell of a lot more to worry than which handgun has 7.3% more muzzle flip.

I get asking what someone's experience is with two different handguns, but more than likely you're going to find guys like me that have years and years on one of the choices and maybe a few range trips or even a good few months on the other. It's hardly fair for me to say Glocks are the better choice since I have far more rounds through Glocks. But, when I was shooting and carrying 100% 1911's, I thought Glocks felt like shit and had horrible triggers. TIME with the gun now has me liking Glock triggers and shooting them better than most.

Asking random gun owners which is the better handgun is like asking my dog his favorite color. Even if he answers, what the hell does it matter?

C4IGrant
12-04-13, 16:11
People will use any argument they can find to justify their emotional attachment.

I buy and shoot what works. When it no longer works for me, I look to improve it if it comes to that. I just don't get the back and forth on this shit.

How many P30's you think just got sold because Grant mentioned "someone" thinks it's now the most reliable.

So many have this insane belief that because there's been a few issues with an otherwise good manufacturer, that now even the good ones you already have will ultimately fail.

It wasn't until I got over the dumb shit and realized what I should be worrying about is what may be at the other end of my gun, not what's on it, that I became a good shooter. When I started to attend training for tactics instead of shooting based classes is when I realized there's a whole hell of a lot more to worry than which handgun has 7.3% more muzzle flip.

I get asking what someone's experience is with two different handguns, but more than likely you're going to find guys like me that have years and years on one of the choices and maybe a few range trips or even a good few months on the other. It's hardly fair for me to say Glocks are the better choice since I have far more rounds through Glocks. But, when I was shooting and carrying 100% 1911's, I thought Glocks felt like shit and had horrible triggers. TIME with the gun now has me liking Glock triggers and shooting them better than most.

Asking random gun owners which is the better handgun is like asking my dog his favorite color. Even if he answers, what the hell does it matter?


Guns are much like women. Everyone likes what they like. As I sit here in my shop, I am wearing a GEN 2 19 with a fitted barrel. Awesome gun (after some apex love) and think it is the best CCW gun ever designed. With that said I own more Glock's than ANY OTHER brand. What is funny about that is people call me a M&P fan boy. ;)

If money permits, people should buy all the popular brands (S&W, Glock, HK, SIG, Beretta, Quality 1911, etc, etc) and just go with what works for them. For me, I flat out like them all! DA/SA, SA, Striker fired, DAO, LEM it doesn't matter because if you are a good shooter you will be able to perform with them all!



C4

jonconsiglio
12-04-13, 16:32
Guns are much like women. Everyone likes what they like. As I sit here in my shop, I am wearing a GEN 2 19 with a fitted barrel. Awesome gun (after some apex love) and think it is the best CCW gun ever designed. With that said I own more Glock's than ANY OTHER brand. What is funny about that is people call me a M&P fan boy. ;)

If money permits, people should buy all the popular brands (S&W, Glock, HK, SIG, Beretta, Quality 1911, etc, etc) and just go with what works for them. For me, I flat out like them all! DA/SA, SA, Striker fired, DAO, LEM it doesn't matter because if you are a good shooter you will be able to perform with them all!



C4

Ha! I tried the "buy them all" thing and had a mess of HKs, a few Sigs, M&Ps, Glocks and a good number of 1911's. I swear it almost got to a point where I just had to throw a dart and run with what it landed on. Even then, I generally gravitated towards Glocks and 1911's.

Now, I will say I can pick up about any popular handgun and shoot well with it. But, it took a hell of a lot of work to get there. I also didn't realize how perishable pistol skills were until I picked up a DA/SA after a year or so without shooting one.

The other thing I've found is 1911's don't feel the same for me, and that's unfortunate. For the past two years, give or take, I've been using a Vogel (and recent Defoor) style grip on my Glocks. Extremely high and forward. Seems to work the best for me...... with Glocks. I pick up a 1911 now as I still have a few, and the front of my support hand overshoots the trigger guard a bit.

But.... I have more important things to obsess on now. Like figuring out the ideal light set up on my rifle (that is becoming my work rifle). Trying to work around ideal hand placement on a 9" 300 blackout and still have easy light activation is not as easy as my other guns. For the first time, I'm really considering the x series of lights on a rifle.

Meplat
12-04-13, 17:12
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Same experiences here with the BTF issues on Glock19 Gen4.

I too like Glocks, but even the brand new Gen4 G19's still have BTF issues with I don't understand. I've always been a M&P guy but decided to try the Koolaid last year.

I shot my friend's brand new Gen4 along side my Gen3 and his was definitely having the BTF issues. On a Gen4 gun, to me this is unacceptable. My Gen3 didn't have the issues thankfully, and a recently purchased G23 Gen2 doesn't either.
I was very lucky to buy myG19 Gen3 in near perfect condition last year for $360 (police trade-in) at a gunshow -- a needle in a haystack find. It looked brand new and was probably hardly shot by the previous LEO owner. Was very lucky no one noticed it and bought it before I got there. I do like it, but I'm by no means a 'fanboy'

Our stories are more and more common. Glock has just screwed it up the last few years is what I've concluded. Not that they are poor choices or bad by any means, but they've certainly taken a good hit to their reputation, and it's definitely their fault. I still want a perfect G19 some day, and I think based off of a lot of talk I've read here and elsewhere, I may pick up a Gen 3 RTF2 G19 some day if I ever get the opportunity. Until then, though, I think I will be steering clear of Glock.

Guinnessman
12-04-13, 17:20
Guns are much like women. Everyone likes what they like. As I sit here in my shop, I am wearing a GEN 2 19 with a fitted barrel. Awesome gun (after some apex love) and think it is the best CCW gun ever designed. With that said I own more Glock's than ANY OTHER brand. What is funny about that is people call me a M&P fan boy. ;)

If money permits, people should buy all the popular brands (S&W, Glock, HK, SIG, Beretta, Quality 1911, etc, etc) and just go with what works for them. For me, I flat out like them all! DA/SA, SA, Striker fired, DAO, LEM it doesn't matter because if you are a good shooter you will be able to perform with them all!



C4

My primary carry was a P2000sk LEM in .40 S&W until about 4 years ago when I purchased a Glock 19 RTF. My Glock has not left my side since then and I have consolidated all of my current handguns to 9mm.

During my period of consolidation I sold a P30 V3 and the P2000sk in .40. They are two guns that I really miss, but I did not miss the .40 S&W cartridge. Fast forward to this past Monday, Grant had a sweet deal on a P30 V1 LEM 9mm that I could not resist. I gave in and made the purchase and cannot wait until I receive the gun.

My G19 will stay on my hip for now, because it will take some time to get back into the LEM groove again. My goal is to shoot and carry both pistols so time will tell. It is going to be a challenge, but this challenge will light a fire under my butt to get to the range more often. We had a busy summer and fall, so my schedule has finally calmed down enough to spend lots of time at the range this winter.

The Dumb Gun Collector
12-04-13, 17:40
This thread has made me really, really miss my P2000

Guinnessman
12-04-13, 17:56
Greg, i hear ya there. Threads like this are job security for Grant! :)

HKGuns
12-04-13, 20:21
I flat out like them all! DA/SA, SA, Striker fired, DAO, LEM it doesn't matter because if you are a good shooter you will be able to perform with them all!


Truer words have never been spoken.

lowprone
12-04-13, 20:37
It all boils down to pick the one that feels the best, or the one your issued or paid to shoot and work, critique,
work, tweak, work work work.
You flat cannot buy expertise. Robbie Leatham can whip all those experts with a Croatian XD, though I grant
you it is striker fired.

montrala
12-05-13, 03:34
This thread has made me really, really miss my P2000

One you tried to kill? ;)

JSantoro
12-05-13, 07:47
When I shot M&Ps, I broke two firing pins.

You're the one they're talking about in the "lock a soldier/Marine in a room with three bowling balls" parable.....!! Have your other pistols tested, one of them may be pregnant...

:D

jonconsiglio
12-05-13, 08:14
You're the one they're talking about in the "lock a soldier/Marine in a room with three bowling balls" parable.....!! Have your other pistols tested, one of them may be pregnant...

:D

You know it brother! I break every damn thing I get my hands on. It was actually the nub that extends down. I think one of the members here was with me when it happened or right afterwards with the most recent one.

I'm not gonna lie, I did try to get one of my 1911's pregnant. That's for another type of forum though. :D

timbo813
12-05-13, 18:43
I prefer the glock 19 mainly because it's the perfect size. The p30 grip is bigger than it needs to be.

For me, the glock points better. Yes, it has all the ergonomics of a 2x4. But that helps me point it better. I can pick it up and point it without looking at the sights and it will be close to dead on. The comfortable rounded contours of guns like the p30 and m&p allow more error in pointing for me. At the end of the day, pointing naturally is more important.

HK's are superbly engineered and will last close to forever. This makes many of them bulkier IMO. I prefer the size of the glock.

Reliability probably goes to the HK. That matters but you just have to shoot the glock enough to be sure it's a good one. I think glock has fixed most of their problems.

The trigger on the glock is better. Yes, I should be able to learn to shoot the HK well. But, why start with a handicap?

Cost is a factor but it is less important to me. If the HK was clearly better for me I would pay the extra 400 bucks. If anybody plans to shoot enough to wear out either gun they will have enough money in ammo to make the gun cost insignificant.

The Dumb Gun Collector
12-05-13, 21:02
Motrala,


One you tried to kill?


Yes! Loupav has it now. He needs to send it back to me.

GHB

YVK
12-05-13, 21:17
I prefer the glock 19 mainly because it's the perfect size. The p30 grip is bigger than it needs to be.


That's very subjective. I am freaking tired pinching my palm practicing reloads with a 19, and I don't care to keep two sets of mags - 19 for carry and 17 for reloads. P30 has the shortest grip possible that's long enough to prevent pinching; perfect length for my needs.

Texaspoff
12-06-13, 03:55
I think the P30 is an excellent pistol and I have shot several. I actually prefer the longer grip of the P30. That has always been my biggest complaint about the 19, the grip is just a tad too short. I have a ton of experience with the G19 sized pistols, so my vote goes to the 19 with the P30 in a very close second. As others have said, try them both if you can and go with the one that feels the best. The commit yourself to becoming proficient with that platform. I simply resolved my complaint about the 19 grip being too short, and solved the problem myself...:)

My home grown G19E's

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/DSC_0008_zpsf3028baa.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/photo_zpsd225af8a.jpg

SteveS
12-19-13, 10:37
G19 for me. More aftermarket support and ease of maintenannce. Mags are cheaper as well.
This post says it best. And should be a sticky for any gun choice. Easy to fix, parts and magazine availability and at a reasonable price.

loupav
12-19-13, 10:39
Motrala,

Yes! Loupav has it now. He needs to send it back to me.

GHB

That and I'm trying to kill my own!

montrala
12-19-13, 10:51
That and I'm trying to kill my own!

And you will fail, like Greg did before ;)