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View Full Version : I "shouldn't" carry my M&P C.O.R.E. ?



azeriosu85
12-03-13, 18:01
I'm confused as i'm reading more and more about how the C.O.R.E. model shouldn't be considered for "hard use" or serious CCW consideration. I have the 9mm version with 4.25" so its easier to fit holsters i own. Now I understand the "C" stands for competition, but i'm just not getting why these things are being said. Some say the RMR setup is extremely weak and will affect zero, others that the lack of rear sight options make it a "write off". I do not see any of this, however i haven't placed a RMR on mine yet so onto that point i have zero experience. just curious what you guys think. Will this make me second guess my choice of CCW'ing this? absolutely not. Just curious on the reasons why some rag on this as anything but a competition gun.

policetested
12-03-13, 18:07
the problem with the mini red dot cut out is that it is generic. The screws become the only baring surface for the G-force the sight experiences during cycling. They will eventually become loose allowing the sight to move or worst case fail and the sight falls off.

True low mounted mini red dots have the slide machined to the sight. This means the sight is fitted to the slide and is snug fit so that the screws essentially are insurance the sight does not move; much like set pin/screw on an iron sight. This is why most places machining slides for mini red dots prefer to have your sight for the slide to get an exact fit; at least that is what the folks at Lone Wolf tell me.

Hope that helps

kLewis
12-04-13, 02:53
It seems you're referring to Hilton Yam's article, since you paraphrased it twice in your post. http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=5381 Unfortunately, you've taken a lot of what it actually says out of context, and now you're wondering if others can validate your feelings.

Yes, it has a unique rear sight, so you only have 1 option if you don't like the one it comes with. No big deal if you do like the one it comes with. He's letting people who haven't bought one know.

Yes, the mounting system for the red dot is designed for competition, and may not hold up to duty use. That's important to know before you buy, but you say you haven't mounted one, so that doesn't effect you. The reality is that the $50 upgrade you paid for the CORE version does not equal having $300 worth of custom mounting work done. That should not be a surprise in life. Things that are too good to be true are, in fact, too good to be true.

No one said it doesn't shoot, or is an unreliable gun. The article simply discusses the limits of that model's features. It's an M&P, generally they are reliable and run fine. If yours does, carry it and be happy.

jonconsiglio
12-04-13, 11:56
I know a number of guys running red dots on their handguns. I think KevinB is carrying his, or at least using it as classes. Unfortunately, Doc Roberts got run off, or he'd tell you how they've been working for him as he's done a lot of testing with the different RMR's. He has some good posts about that on Lightfighter.

Personally, I don't have enough time on them to say, but in my limited experience I still want a rear sight and I've seen them make it very hard to get a sight picture in bad weather.

I noticed no sped increase in my short test, but I was more accurate at distance.

Rosco Benson
12-04-13, 12:51
Blue Locktite and index-mark the bolts, shoot it a bunch, and see if the optic shifts zero or falls off. If it doesn't fail, then it's okay.

Just because a stronger solution is available doesn't always mean that a weaker solution isn't strong enough. Kind of like carrying a 1911 with a low-mount Bomar on it. We all know that a fixed sight is stronger, but the Bomar is strong enough for most anything. I suggest you try it out, heavily, on the range and see if the C.O.R.E. has any issues.

Rosco

LightningFast
12-04-13, 13:01
You could just, you know, go out and shoot it and find out on your own. You don't need "SMEs" to tell you if something will work or not.

kantstudien
12-04-13, 14:14
Hilton has already stated his reasons very clearly for why he doesn't think it is a hard use weapon.

Kain
12-04-13, 15:50
My two cents, for what little they are worth, and saying they are worth two cents is really over marketing them in this case, but if you are wanting to use a gun, any gun, for hard use, duty, or what have you, I think there are a lot of people here who will agree that it is prudent to test the gun and run it through its paces. Shoot it a bunch, I would also agree to the witness marks on the screws to see if they move, and see what happens. If it holds together and nothing goes wrong and you trust it then run with it. If anything hinky goes on then you know what it is good for. At the end of the day it is your ass not ours, so it is your decision to make. If you do decide to take it and run it through it's paces do let us know how it turns out, any issues, and how it holds up. Am thinking of picking up an RMR sometime next year and have not decided what the hell I am going to mount it on, but having handled the C.O.R.E. ....

azeriosu85
12-05-13, 17:38
Guys i think i might have worded my OP poorly. IM not concerned with carrying it, i have shot it and its very reliable. Was just curious on the issue of carrying equipped with an RMR. AS far as im not going to because of what a "SME" said is moot and not applicable to my original question. I carry mine everyday, just have not bought a RMR yet and was curious

TRshootem
12-05-13, 22:53
Dawson precision has just come out with a sight set for the CORE, so if you want a light pipe fiber front.... I am mounting a Vortex Razor to my 9 CORE and we will see how it holds up. Jerry Mickelec(sp) says it's holding well so far. Many of the earlier red dot set ups were not milled into the slide and worked for thousands of rounds with periodic checks for attachment integrity. I shoot some Steel and defensive pistol, with aging eyes RDS seems like the right move. We are seeing more of the 'pros' in the training bidness going this way, are they getting older also :)

ruchik
12-06-13, 00:15
I'd say just mark the screws with witness marks so you can see if they back out. Run 200-300 rounds through it, and if you see no ill effects, I don't see why you couldn't carry it.

FromMyColdDeadHand
12-08-13, 01:41
I have a FS 9mm that I had Suarez mill for an RMR. I have the non-battery RMR and and X300 in a Raven holster that I CCW whenever I'm not travelling out of state. I'd say the only thing I've noticed is that I can get some mean lint on the RMRs window, but just a puff of breath blows it off. I bought a CORE 5inch Model in 9MM since the X300 already extends past the barrel of the FS, I thought I might as well fill the gap. I have a Raven for it, I just haven't had a chance to run the gun enough to 'qualify' it for carry, hope to over the holidays.

The whole "C" thing? Just because someone puts National Match or Tactical doesn't make it better, its just a label. Once again, some saying that guns set for gaming aren't as 'reliable' or accurate as 'tactical' guns. I understand the argument about the bolts taking the brunt of the forces- and I haven't played with the adaptor plates yet, so I don't know the particulars on that - but to say that competitors need lower accuracy and less durability than self defense guns always kind of makes me chuckle. Most 'gamers' shoot more rounds than most 'tactical' guys- that's just the nature of it. And for accuracy, I don't want to go up against a BG with a scattering gun but that isn't going to be the major determinant of the outcome of that exchange whether I have a .5 or 3 inch gun at 25 yards. But that could be a big hassle hitting little plates at distance in a game. If you think the sight mount isn't good, say it isn't good for defense or gaming.

On that front, it seems that making adaptors that fill the gap or bedding the sight into the slide would help. I still haven't moved my RMR (maybe Santa will get me another one ;) ) so I don't know the particulars on the mounting yet. I just looked over them when I bought it. It just seems to me that if RMR were going to be flying off slides, we would have heard about it, or Trijicon would have seen something. The rest of the red dots, I don't know. They are mostly for gamers who don't care about accuracy and reliability ;)

Airborne Infantryman
12-08-13, 03:48
The CORE uses the same mounting system as the FNX-45 Tactical.......yet nobody is out there claiming that the FNX-45 Tactical isn't suitable for carry/duty/etc.

walkin' trails
12-08-13, 08:46
[QUOTE=azeriosu85;1807618]Guys i think i might have worded my OP poorly. IM not concerned with carrying it, i have shot it and its very reliable. Was just curious on the issue of carrying equipped with an RMR. AS far as im not going to because of what a "SME" said is moot and not applicable to my original question. I carry mine everyday, just have not bought a RMR yet and was curious[/QUOT

Are you asking about any legal problems from using a mini RD equipped pistol in a SD encounter? I'm not the expert to answer that, but Massad Ayoob deals with those issues in another gun blog. I would think they're not any worse than CT lasers in such a situation. The most important thing for you to do is educate yourself in those matters and be able to honestly articulate why you did what you did and used what you used (you're going to have to do that anyway). And include drills transitioning to the CORE's iron sights to your training regiment incase the RD were to malfunction.

masakari
12-08-13, 10:58
Red loctite and a dual illuminated RMR would solve the shaking loose problem... of course, it would likely NEVER come off again...

azeriosu85
12-08-13, 21:50
The CORE uses the same mounting system as the FNX-45 Tactical.......yet nobody is out there claiming that the FNX-45 Tactical isn't suitable for carry/duty/etc.

I did not think of that! is it really the same?

FromMyColdDeadHand
12-08-13, 22:09
[QUOTE=azeriosu85;1807618]Guys i think i might have worded my OP poorly. IM not concerned with carrying it, i have shot it and its very reliable. Was just curious on the issue of carrying equipped with an RMR. AS far as im not going to because of what a "SME" said is moot and not applicable to my original question. I carry mine everyday, just have not bought a RMR yet and was curious[/QUOT

Are you asking about any legal problems from using a mini RD equipped pistol in a SD encounter? I'm not the expert to answer that, but Massad Ayoob deals with those issues in another gun blog. I would think they're not any worse than CT lasers in such a situation. The most important thing for you to do is educate yourself in those matters and be able to honestly articulate why you did what you did and used what you used (you're going to have to do that anyway). And include drills transitioning to the CORE's iron sights to your training regiment incase the RD were to malfunction.

Got a link to that article? Thx

Airborne Infantryman
12-09-13, 04:14
I did not think of that! is it really the same?

Yes, it is. I have one of each.........the FNX and the CORE both have adapter plates that "mate" to bosses on the slide. The adapter plates and bosses on the slide lock into each other, preventing that forward motion from sheering the screws.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2835/9014465267_5c24e9b53b_b.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2836/8820276288_8b3e0300c7_b.jpg

JHC
12-09-13, 11:16
It seems you're referring to Hilton Yam's article, since you paraphrased it twice in your post. http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=5381 Unfortunately, you've taken a lot of what it actually says out of context, and now you're wondering if others can validate your feelings.

Yes, it has a unique rear sight, so you only have 1 option if you don't like the one it comes with. No big deal if you do like the one it comes with. He's letting people who haven't bought one know.

Yes, the mounting system for the red dot is designed for competition, and may not hold up to duty use. That's important to know before you buy, but you say you haven't mounted one, so that doesn't effect you. The reality is that the $50 upgrade you paid for the CORE version does not equal having $300 worth of custom mounting work done. That should not be a surprise in life. Things that are too good to be true are, in fact, too good to be true.

No one said it doesn't shoot, or is an unreliable gun. The article simply discusses the limits of that model's features. It's an M&P, generally they are reliable and run fine. If yours does, carry it and be happy.

I'm not so sure he took it so out of context. I'd say Hilton's review suggested it would likely not stand up to a vigorous shooting schedule without shifting also. What is the definition of "duty use"? Does it require smashing it into a door jam raiding a crack house to qualify? 3-10K rounds a year; is that going to be as hard on the mount as "duty use? I think the review article pretty much murdered the design S&W chose for the CORE jumping on a band wagon.

thirteen/autumns
12-09-13, 13:11
[QUOTE=walkin' trails;1809315]

Got a link to that article? Thx

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=5381

azeriosu85
12-09-13, 13:49
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2835/9014465267_5c24e9b53b_b.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2836/8820276288_8b3e0300c7_b.jpg


Shot in the dark, The FNX has the co-witness night sights, i think Trijicon. Do they make a pair that fit the CORE?

theblackknight
12-09-13, 14:02
The whole "C" thing? Just because someone puts National Match or Tactical doesn't make it better, its just a label. Once again, some saying that guns set for gaming aren't as 'reliable' or accurate as 'tactical' guns. I understand the argument about the bolts taking the brunt of the forces- and I haven't played with the adaptor plates yet, so I don't know the particulars on that - but to say that competitors need lower accuracy and less durability than self defense guns always kind of makes me chuckle. Most 'gamers' shoot more rounds than most 'tactical' guys- that's just the nature of it. And for accuracy, I don't want to go up against a BG with a scattering gun but that isn't going to be the major determinant of the outcome of that exchange whether I have a .5 or 3 inch gun at 25 yards. But that could be a big hassle hitting little plates at distance in a game. If you think the sight mount isn't good, say it isn't good for defense or gaming.



You beat me.

This isnt a serious competition gun, it's a gateway drug for people who want to try slide mounted optics. It's dosent really do one thing well it seems.

Airborne Infantryman
12-09-13, 19:41
Shot in the dark, The FNX has the co-witness night sights, i think Trijicon. Do they make a pair that fit the CORE?

Dawson Precision is making tritium front and rear sights for the CORE. They just started making them very recently.

You can also get them in plain black, or fiber optic as well.

superstratjunky
12-17-13, 17:52
Well if you go with one of Doug's guns with the RMR, I'd most definitely carry it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHrG2SQ2010&feature=c4-overview&list=UUrirERtZkvQXp0i3iS_T93A

dougwg
12-18-13, 12:04
Yes, it is. I have one of each.........the FNX and the CORE both have adapter plates that "mate" to bosses on the slide. The adapter plates and bosses on the slide lock into each other, preventing that forward motion from sheering the screws.

.jpg
.jpg
Remember, the "C" in C.O.R.E. stands for "Competition" not "Combat".
I think there's a reason for that and S&W knows it.

azeriosu85
12-18-13, 13:32
I believe during testing, Trijicon found there to be up to a 37MOA shift because of the extremely loose fit between the slide, adapter plate and RMR.
Because of the possibility of such a huge shift of zero on a firearm which may be used in a self defense situation and the resulting possibility of collateral damage I do not suggest carrying the S&W C.O.R.E. with a MRDS attached as a defensive weapon.

Remember, the "C" in C.O.R.E. stands for "Competition" not "Combat".
I think there's a reason for that and S&W knows it.

Can you please provide a link or source for that information? That seems to be extremely excessive and hard to believe. Not that it's not true, but would prefer to have real data please:dirol:

dougwg
12-18-13, 21:19
Remember, the "C" in C.O.R.E. stands for "Competition" not "Combat".
I think there's a reason for that and S&W knows it.

dougwg
04-08-14, 12:14
...000

MSparks909
04-08-14, 15:34
Remember, the "C" in C.O.R.E. stands for "Competition" not "Combat".
I think there's a reason for that and S&W knows it.

Delete.

KevinB
04-09-14, 09:25
I run a CORE with DeltaPoint as my primary CCW and as a duty gun.

Anyone who does not think the CORE lockup is solid needs to spend more time with it.

I have a L&S milled slide on my Shield - its definitely in there - but neither sights moves -- the CORE has over 8k on it - been thru a Hostage Rescue course - and sits on my hip daily in either a IWB raven holster or the Safariland 6350DO
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/IMG_9367_zpsbc223e12.jpg

C4IGrant
04-09-14, 10:37
Remember, the "C" in C.O.R.E. stands for "Competition" not "Combat".
I think there's a reason for that and S&W knows it.

What is the reason?

The CORE has all the same internals as any other M&P. The only two differences is that you can mount an optic and it has taller sights for a can. That's it.



C4