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Mauser KAR98K
12-06-13, 01:06
I am to the point of splitting hairs.

My dear mother now has my S&W M&P45 that she can handle, shoot well with, and maintain. I am about to graduate from college, and as a reward to myself between finishing, sticking with it between health issues and my dad's passing, I want an HK in .45ACP. I had my heart set on a MK23 at the price Grant had it for, but he tells me they are sold out. :(.

So I am back to the two choices that have been bugging me for the past six months: the USP45, or the HK45?

I have a USP9 which has now replaced my M&P9 as my main carry gun. The M&P is a wonderful system, and reliable, but I just don't trust the accuracy. With the USP I am on target, and am confident in hitting my target at 25 yards and beyond. (Even with the new M&P9 barrel, i shoot better with the HK).

I have one issue that has been making this decision from being slam dunk. I have tendinitis on the knuckle of my right index finger. It seems now after 300 rounds through the M&P45 (she still lets me shoot it) I get a flare up, and it is soar for three days. My finger also becomes "lazy" as it points downward slightly. I have seen an orthopedic, and it is what it is.

However, I miss shooting .45. Miss carrying it.

What I am hung up on is:

USP--
Larger magazine count.
Smoother recoil.
Used to the grip of the USP.
Aftermarket land and groove barrel for lead rounds.
"Collateral."

HK45--
Longer sight radius.
Better accuracy through the O-Ring on the barrel.
Better ergo.
Better for concealment (though both pistols are close to the same size).
(looking at the tactical with the threaded barrel, thus ready to go suppressor route when i have the funds).

I'm beating my head over this. One draw back from one pistol is canceled by the pros of another.

And no I can't get both, and no i will not just stick to shooting a 9mm because of my hand. I want a .45 from HK, but which one...?

Ed L.
12-06-13, 02:28
HK45 would be my choice (and is).

The HK USP45's grip is a tad wider than the USP9 & USP40 to make it just too big for my comfort.

Same thing with the MK23's grip.

ptmccain
12-06-13, 05:49
How about save your money and buy a Glock 21.

Rugged. Reliable. Higher capacity and ... less $$.

Just a thought.

montrala
12-06-13, 06:55
Aftermarket land and groove barrel for lead rounds.


AFAIK no problem with lead rounds in HK polygonal barrel. Do not allow for excesive bulidup (same as with land and groove barrel) and you are GTG.

Overall HK45 is better gun both for shooting and carry. HK made it using lessons learned from USP .45 and USPc .45 (and P2000/P30 series) and came out with great package. If your heart still wants USP consider USP Tactical or USP Expert, if you are heavy on built in accuracy potential.

RHINOWSO
12-06-13, 06:58
Between a regular USP45 and HK45, I'd probably go HK45 for ergos.

But between a USP45Tac and HK45T, I'd take the USP45Tac for sure.

Rekkr870
12-06-13, 08:11
I enjoyed my USP 45 more than my HK45. The recoil was better to me on the USP 45. I think the accuracy difference was negligible between the two pistols. They both shot lights out. If I had to do it over again, I would stick with the USP 45. I have bear paws so the grip on the USP was not bad. I guess I'm the only one who thinks that the grip on the HK45 was not the shit. Just my opinion.

Swamp Yankee
12-06-13, 08:42
I enjoyed my USP 45 more than my HK45. The recoil was better to me on the USP 45. I think the accuracy difference was negligible between the two pistols. They both shot lights out. If I had to do it over again, I would stick with the USP 45. I have bear paws so the grip on the USP was not bad. I guess I'm the only one who thinks that the grip on the HK45 was not the shit. Just my opinion.

I agree. I find the "brick ergonomics" claims about the USP 45 to be very exaggerated. The USP 45 is cheaper than the HK45 and offers a more user customization trigger system. Plus there is a rail adapter and extended magazine release available that make the platform even more similar to the HK45. I like the aggressive texture of the USP frame and recoil impulse. You could do a lot worse than picking up a USP.

Rekkr870
12-06-13, 08:44
I agree. I find the "brick ergonomics" claims about the USP 45 to be very exaggerated. The USP 45 is cheaper than the HK45 and offers a more user customization trigger system. Plus there is a rail adapter and extended magazine release available that make the platform even more similar to the HK45. I like the aggressive texture of the USP frame and recoil impulse. You could do a lot worse than picking up a USP.

This is my observation as well. My USP Tactical trigger was far superior to the HK45 trigger.

Brianb23
12-06-13, 09:25
Have you considered a USP Expert? I only suggest because it sounds like you want more of a range gun since you EDC a usp9 and the Experts longer barrel will lend to better accuracy than the others. However to answer the original question, go with the HK45 simply for the better ergos. Why is there always some one who suggests a Glock? He asked about HK's!

Talon167
12-06-13, 09:30
I would – and did – go with the USP45. It’s a few hundred cheaper and holds more rounds. If you really want to spend a grand on an HK pistol, the USP45 Tactical is where it’s at.

The HK45Tactical is a joke, IMO, for what you get and the price you pay, even by HK standards.

The Dumb Gun Collector
12-06-13, 13:08
The HK45 will give you superior ergonomics and much better light options.

jonconsiglio
12-06-13, 13:14
I've had both (at the same time), and preferred the HK45. It had better ergonomics, as mentioned, and it carried well. I had the HK45c as well, as that was also a great gun for carry. My USP was the Tactical with the threaded barrel. I wouldn't turn one down, but my preference would be the HK45.... This time with the light LEM.

Dos Cylindros
12-06-13, 13:54
Between these two, durability and reliability is basically the same.....outstanding. While the USP45 does carry two more rounds, I don't see that as a major selling point (YMMV). I was recently making this decision and decided to go with the HK45. I found the grip to be far more ergonomic when compared to the USP, though the USP was certainly not bad. The HK45 is a new design so it will probably be around longer than the USP. Let's face it, the USP is almost 20 years old and at some point I would think H&K is going to stop making one in favor of the other. This is going to drive up cost and drive down availability of spare parts and magazines for the USP. Admittedly, some of the internal parts are interchangeable between the two so it may be a moot point. In my experience, the USP had a softer recoil impulse due to the dual spring system, but the HK45 had less muzzle flip due to the slightly lower bore axis. The bore axis height between the two is really just splitting hairs, and that alone would not sway me to one over the other. As Greg pointed out, the HK45 has a rail which will accept more lights vs the USP and it's rail. Obviously the USP can be fitted with an aftermarket rail, but less hanging off my gun is better in my opinion.

At the end of the day, try both if you have the option. For me, the HK45 was the winner. Good luck in your search bud, it is after all half the fun of acquiring a new gun.

Bluto
12-06-13, 14:06
The match trigger on the USP sealed the deal for me...

warpedcamshaft
12-06-13, 14:46
The recoil impulse of the USP45/40/9 is "smoother", but the dual recoil spring setup alters the recoil characteristics and impacts my sight tracking ability. Bruce Gray wrote some interesting things about the USP series and the recoil characteristics... If you are interested, you will have to do some web searching.

The HK45 / P30 has a more prominent snap to the recoil, but I can control the gun better in recoil. The recoil feels a little less "floaty" and the gun snaps down back on target very well for me.

On shot timers I have found that I can shoot the HK45 or P30 a little bit faster than the USP series.

However, both are extremely durable and very high quality units. I would have no problem with either, but personally would pick the HK45 for pure shooting characteristics.

Edit:

I did recently see an HK45 choke on the firing line, and it would not function properly for about 20-30 rounds. (Would not cycle all the way back into battery.) I took the shooter off the line and asked him if he lubed his weapon, and he said that he had not.

The O-ring was very dry, and lubing it fixed the issue immediately. I was a bit dissapointed to see this, and it made me question the o-ring design of the HK45.

Mauser KAR98K
12-06-13, 17:22
Well, I had made my decision today. No going back 9especially after getting the LGS to drop the price to something almost reasonable).

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5507/11243248936_d27c71d0bc_b.jpg

First, I want to thank for the posters here giving the recommendations and opinions on me helping to make a decision. This had, again, been racking my brain for sometime. (Except the dude who told me to buy a G-Lock. Really?? Not only did you forget I have tendinitis in my hand, and that shooting an M&P45 gives me problems, the Glock is no where near what an H&K is [except reliability; I'll give it that]. That was like telling your girlfriend, wife, whatever, to buy the Hanes underwear at Wal-Mart instead of the Victoria Secret she really wants because, "it's coming off anyways, just save the money").

Anyways...

I went with the USP45 over the HK45 for one large reason: the tendinitis at the joint/knuckle of my index finger. It was the report of the smoother recoil that sealed the deal from here and other sources. I had test fired an HK45, and liked it, but I was afraid that after a high round-count, my hand would be throbbing. I did fire three rounds from the USP45 before I broke it down and cleaned what was left of the factory protective grease. It reminds me of some hot loaded 9mm, or semi-wad cutters out of a 1911. My hand is probably thanking me.

This pistol I had picked up at my LGS; I had been eying it for over six years there. Yeah, the date code is AG with the tests rounds dated in 2006. Why? The LGS had the thing set at $1034. Granted I live in a rural part in Tennessee where Glock, Ruger and Hi-Points reign supreme, but even the price they had was too much. I explained to the seller,and later owner of the LGS/hardware store how old it was, and that a new production USP45 could be had for $850 or so. The difference here was it had been sitting in the case for ever, finger banged by rural and city slicker po-dunks and COD folks, and was probably going to sit there for another 6 years if they didn't come down. I did not get him to come down much, and it is probably criminal of the price I paid for it, but...at least it is in my hands and not with some idiot with more money than sense...what a minute.

Yes, the expert came to mind, and so had a MK23; however, this will be more than a range gun. now it is off to finding a holster, light adapter, light, and mags.

ETA: Still leery of shooting lead rounds through an HK. I had once, about 100 rounds, and it did clean up well, but looking down the barrel it looked to have a very nice coat of lead in it.

Here it is with my USP9

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2811/11243226164_e78de50d83_b.jpg

Rekkr870
12-06-13, 17:28
That's a fine looking pistol. Your definitely not going to regret that purchase. This makes me want to go buy another one. Now go shoot it, a lot!

RHINOWSO
12-06-13, 17:32
This is my observation as well. My USP Tactical trigger was far superior to the HK45 trigger.
I havent shot a HK45, but the two USP45 Tacticals I've shot had great triggers are were very accurate.

Congrats on the USP45, that's a great pistol. Don't worry about AMSDORF, that's his typical MO with the Glock comment.

Trajan
12-06-13, 18:28
Just curious, but how does the M&P 45 cause you problems, but a USP 45 does not? Wouldn't pulling ANY trigger affect your tendinitis? And lastly, is your tendinitis permanent? Usually resting it for a few weeks does wonders.

WickedWillis
12-06-13, 18:52
Just curious, but how does the M&P 45 cause you problems, but a USP 45 does not? Wouldn't pulling ANY trigger affect your tendinitis? And lastly, is your tendinitis permanent? Usually resting it for a few weeks does wonders.

This confused me as well, in DA the HK USP's trigger should have given his tendinitis fits, and the M&P 45 has a much "Softer" trigger pull. I dunno.

SiGfever
12-06-13, 20:36
Congratulations and I am glad to see that you know how to properly load an H&K mag. :smile:

RHINOWSO
12-06-13, 20:39
This confused me as well, in DA the HK USP's trigger should have given his tendinitis fits, and the M&P 45 has a much "Softer" trigger pull. I dunno.

Maybe he's shooting SA w/ manual safety instead of DA/SA?

Javelin
12-06-13, 20:55
I will never buy USPs new as they pop up in January as police trade-ins for cheap. This makes resale of USP models too cheap to justify the new price tag. However HK45, P2000, and P30 are not bought in the states by agencies in numbers like USP so your resale will be higher and it makes sense to purchase new.

That's my thought on it.

Mauser KAR98K
12-06-13, 21:24
Just curious, but how does the M&P 45 cause you problems, but a USP 45 does not? Wouldn't pulling ANY trigger affect your tendinitis? And lastly, is your tendinitis permanent? Usually resting it for a few weeks does wonders.


This confused me as well, in DA the HK USP's trigger should have given his tendinitis fits, and the M&P 45 has a much "Softer" trigger pull. I dunno.

It's not so much the trigger pulling (most of my shots with the USP9 are single action with the first shot DA. I also have a lighter hammer spring). It's the recoil that gets me. The way I stage and pull the trigger, I do not use much effort from my knuckle where the finger joins the hand, where my tendinitis is. I use the joint down from the knuckle to pull the trigger. There is tension being used at the knuckle, but most of the work is coming from the finger joint.

My problem is permanent; possibly caused by the case trimming I was doing off a drill press (.223/5.56 and mass numbers). My orthopedic doctor, the way he described it to me, is that there is a band that site in a groove under the knuckle. This "rubber-band" has slipped off the groove and causes me problems. When i bend my finger I can hear and feel it pop. It has also left my finger in a state of pointing downwards when I hold my right hand out. It's not noticeable at first glance, but its there. I can lift the finger up and such, and use it, but if I over use it, it flares up and hurts like hell. Sucks when I had to take notes in class and my finger wants to seize up. I'm 30 years old and I have to live with this. Surgery would make matters worse.

Its the lighter, polymer framed weapons that give me the problems, unfortunately, as I really do miss the M&P45 and shooting it. I have an Apex FSS trigger in that I loved using for competition. But, the lighter pistols' recoils are just jarring for my hand these days in a .45. My hand also flares up when I do a lot of finger picking with my guitars, particular doing Chet Atkins or Merle Travis picking syles.

In light of this, I did pull the DA on a P2000, and my trigger finger let me know that wasn't a a smart move. Me wonders if it is also where the trigger is and how much of a reach is tolerable.

Mauser KAR98K
12-06-13, 21:31
Maybe he's shooting SA w/ manual safety instead of DA/SA?

I carry it in DA mode for the first shot, safety on. My USP9 currently has a lighter hammer spring in it.


I will never buy USPs new as they pop up in January as police trade-ins for cheap. This makes resale of USP models too cheap to justify the new price tag. However HK45, P2000, and P30 are not bought in the states by agencies in numbers like USP so your resale will be higher and it makes sense to purchase new.

That's my thought on it.

If some of you ride BMW motorcycles, you might sympathize with this. I consider the HK USP/P30?HK45/P2000 to be the BMW motorcycles of pistols. It's not the aspect of seeing what it can shoot, but how much it can. A new pistol, particular an HK and even my M&Ps, is how much mileage--round-count--I can put through them. My USP9 I had bought used, contrary to my LGS I bought it from, so I do not know the full round count, nor have I really paid attention to the rounds I have shot through it. Guess is 5,000 rounds, more or less.

My USP45 has a grand total of five rounds through it: two from the factory, three from me.

CRAMBONE
12-06-13, 21:32
I will never buy USPs new as they pop up in January as police trade-ins for cheap.

You got a lead on this? I would be interested in trade in USPs.

Javelin
12-06-13, 22:03
You got a lead on this? I would be interested in trade in USPs.

I bought my last 2 USP for $400 & $420 respectively last year. Look for the big distributors to start dropping them beginning of the year. In fact I've bought all 4 of my Hk used :)

Brianb23
12-07-13, 00:00
Great looking guns, you can't go wrong as long as it has "HK" stamped on the slide!

CRAMBONE
12-07-13, 05:22
I bought my last 2 USP for $400 & $420 respectively last year. Look for the big distributors to start dropping them beginning of the year. In fact I've bought all 4 of my Hk used :)

Don't want to hijack the thread too much but I was wondering if you guys could give a list of distributors and time frame they usually post them on their sites? Thanks in advance.

ralph
12-07-13, 10:39
Op you did good considering what/who you were dealing with... You shouldn't have any problems with the USP. As far as shooting lead through it, you can, without worry. I've shot a couple thousand hard cast lead bullets through my P-2000 without problems. Cleanup wasn't any more difficult than cleaning up any 1911 I've shot with hard cast lead. People get too wrapped up over polygonal rifling and hard cast lead bullets.. Granted, it's not a good combo in a Glock. But a HK barrel is much different than a Glock. If you have a Glock compare the end of the chamber to a HK's chamber and you'll see the difference. The end of the Glock chamber has a shoulder for the mouth of the case to but up against. and there is little to no provision for guiding the bullet into the rifling. The bullet just scrapes across the shoulder into the rifling. With cast lead, part of the bullet scrapes across this shoulder on it's way into the rifling. This can raise chamber pressure with each shot. Looking into a HK chamber, it too, has a shoulder for the case mouth to but up against,(as does most center fired semi auto calibers) but, the start of the rifling is beveled, to aid the bullet's entry into the rifling, and the bullet doesn't get scraped up entering the rifling like it would in a Glock. Bottom line.. hard cast lead can be used in a HK.. And I might add, as long as the bullets used are hard enough, and velocitys are kept reasonable, clean up shouldn't be that difficult. All that said, I've been using plated bullets for the last couple of years.. Sure, they cost a little more, but when breaking down cost per box or 50, the difference is about $2.00 for.45, for 9mm it's even less. and of course cleanup is a lot easier.

Wolvee
12-07-13, 12:32
I hate to make it so simple but choose whichever fits you best & gives you the most of what you need with the fewest things that you can't live with. That's the same with any pistol as far as I'm concerned.

I like the USP but I love my Hk45's. ..and I'm not even a .45guy. The Hk45 just does it right for me. I don't need a strange rail adapter for my surefire, the mag release is 10x better and I feel like it has a better carry profile. The last one is probably subjective. I carry all my pistols in Raven Light compatible Phantoms & 2.5" loops.

You can train around any platform but the mind trick is to find something you like right away. This ensures you carry it from the begining.

I'm no expert though.

beschatten
12-07-13, 13:59
I hate to make it so simple but choose whichever fits you best & gives you the most of what you need with the fewest things that you can't live with. That's the same with any pistol as far as I'm concerned.

You can train around any platform but the mind trick is to find something you like right away. This ensures you carry it from the begining.

I'm no expert though.

Probably the most honest; and continuously said advise on this board.

RussB
12-07-13, 18:25
I've owned both, and now have just the HK45. It just fits me better. Regarding lead bullets, I bought the USP45 in '98 for my son to shoot in local matches. He and I have put about 23,000 lead reloads through the gun with no ill effects.

Congrats on your new USP. Happy shooting !

Javelin
12-07-13, 19:27
It depends on who wins the bids. Aimsurplus gets some in (usually Glocks though), Rguns, a few distributors from Ohio, cdnn, etc. just start looking after New Years as departments change their sidearms out at the end and beginning of the year.

RussB
12-07-13, 19:43
Oops, my bad

Javelin
12-07-13, 20:12
Oh yeah, and just to add the HK45 has about 20 years of engineering beyond that of the USP. But there is nothing wrong with either, I like grabbing the USP trade ins :)

kihnspiracy
12-08-13, 14:00
I personally prefer the USP45 to the HK45. It basically boils down to individual choice. For my needs, the USP was a better choice. I liked it so much, that now I have 3 of them.

Paxamus
12-09-13, 15:17
Great looking pistol, congrats on the new purchase, I agree with kihnspiracy, USP. I have three myself. I flirted with the idea of an HK45 or P30, but while they might have better ergos, the USPs have better triggers.

Mauser KAR98K
12-09-13, 16:57
Quick range report:

Put 250 rounds down range with no problems either from the pistol or my hand. I put about a 1.5/2" group at 25 yards in the head of one of the targets I was shooting with two stacked close to each other. This was out of a five shot set, off hand, with one miss and one at the chin. Very impressed.

Yes, one other reason in getting the USP was for the better trigger over the HK45.

TurretGunner
01-05-14, 16:34
I will never buy USPs new as they pop up in January as police trade-ins for cheap. This makes resale of USP models too cheap to justify the new price tag. However HK45, P2000, and P30 are not bought in the states by agencies in numbers like USP so your resale will be higher and it makes sense to purchase new.

That's my thought on it.

Exactly. I just bought a police trade in with 2 mags (USP45 full size) and night sites for $575...... It would be retarded to pay new prices for one... they are probally the most durrable handguns made today and round count is irrelevent (for police guns)

TurretGunner
01-05-14, 16:36
I carry it in DA mode for the first shot, safety on. My USP9 currently has a lighter hammer spring in it.



If some of you ride BMW motorcycles, you might sympathize with this. I consider the HK USP/P30?HK45/P2000 to be the BMW motorcycles of pistols. It's not the aspect of seeing what it can shoot, but how much it can. A new pistol, particular an HK and even my M&Ps, is how much mileage--round-count--I can put through them. My USP9 I had bought used, contrary to my LGS I bought it from, so I do not know the full round count, nor have I really paid attention to the rounds I have shot through it. Guess is 5,000 rounds, more or less.

My USP45 has a grand total of five rounds through it: two from the factory, three from me.

You can not afford to shoot out a USP in 45. I promise you this.... There are guns with over 300K doccumented rounds and still ticking......

sig1473
01-06-14, 01:36
Quick range report:

Put 250 rounds down range with no problems either from the pistol or my hand. I put about a 1.5/2" group at 25 yards in the head of one of the targets I was shooting with two stacked close to each other. This was out of a five shot set, off hand, with one miss and one at the chin. Very impressed.

Yes, one other reason in getting the USP was for the better trigger over the HK45.

Look into dropping a Match trigger in it. I had an USP Tactical and that trigger was amazing. I only sold it to buy other things that quickly came up. Also, drop in the extended mag release as it made reloads faster.

Rohardi
01-06-14, 08:12
I've had a USP 45 Tactical, and a HK45. I would go with the HK45 all day.

WickedWillis
01-06-14, 10:44
Exactly. I just bought a police trade in with 2 mags (USP45 full size) and night sites for $575...... It would be retarded to pay new prices for one... they are probally the most durrable handguns made today and round count is irrelevent (for police guns)

Is there an online dealer or anything you know of that does HK police trade ins? or did you go through someone local?

kirito
01-06-14, 14:30
I vote HK45. If you are still geared towards a Mk23. Hit me up. I can push you in the direction of a place that has 1 in stock or special order it for you that can take a few days.