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30 cal slut
12-11-13, 14:46
A credible industry source just told me that this will likely be coming from Freedom Group (Remington).

Thoughts?

Any one hear or see anything?

It's also not a big secret that the Hartford Horsey may be coming out with one, maybe in early 2014. Not in time for SHOT 2014.

ETA: Changed title. New gun is not polymer, not striker fired.

William B.
12-11-13, 14:59
One of the mods over on coltforum.com posted this the other day.

http://www.coltforum.com/forums/lounge/70870-new-remington-51-a.html

30 cal slut
12-11-13, 15:07
thanks for the link.

Big A
12-13-13, 12:30
Any more info on this? i didn't find much on google.

SeriousStudent
12-13-13, 17:49
A single stack 9mm designed to compete with the Shield......

"Dear Remington,

Please don't screw this up.

V/R,

Serious"

superstratjunky
12-13-13, 18:27
The more the merrier.

c3006
12-14-13, 06:25
I still just can't believe Glock is missing this boat.

Voodoo_Man
12-14-13, 08:01
I still just can't believe Glock is missing this boat.

To be fair, if you are a Glock VP or CEO, you look at your finances and wonder if you really to do anything other than make your traditional models.

okie john
12-14-13, 17:29
To be fair, if you are a Glock VP or CEO, you look at your finances and wonder if you really to do anything other than make your traditional models.

Yes and no. Colt did that, but by the time they started to innovate again (with the Double Eagle and the P2000) it was already too late.


Okie John

Voodoo_Man
12-14-13, 17:57
Yes and no. Colt did that, but by the time they started to innovate again (with the Double Eagle and the P2000) it was already too late.


Okie John

Realistically speaking, what does Glock really need to do in order to move closer to the "Perfection" they talk about?

The G19 (and/or the G17) are iconic firearms that set industry standards with every new generation. They try new things, RTF2, for example, some liked it, some didn't but that's really the end of that product are for them. They entered it, got the sales, nothing too impressive as most "new" Glocks sell out very quickly anyway.

What else are they going to do? Have a Gen5 G34 with the slide cut out for an RMR? Make a single stack 9mm? double/single 380? How about a dedicated Glock .22lr? Nothing really "new" persay in the gun world and we all know any one of those suggested models would sell out extremely quickly.

Unless something game changing happens in the pistol world, Glock just needs to come up with one thing a year (maybe) and not change anything too drastically. They can produce Gen3 19 and 17's, and they will always sell out even if the market is saturated.

okie john
12-14-13, 22:01
Realistically speaking, what does Glock really need to do in order to move closer to the "Perfection" they talk about?

They need to correct the BTF issue, the extraction/ejection issues in Gen4 and some Gen3 9mm pistols, and the WML issues in some 40-caliber pistols.


Unless something game changing happens in the pistol world, Glock just needs to come up with one thing a year (maybe) and not change anything too drastically.

Game-changers happen in the pistol world all the time (accuracy: Walther PPQ, HK P30; trigger quality: PPQ; customizable ergonomics: P30, S&W M&P; optics readiness: S&W CORE, FNH FNX 45 Tactical). Glock has lost a lot of market share because they have stopped innovating. Their last new model was a Frankengun made of existing components, and their current models are far from perfect.


They can produce Gen3 19 and 17's, and they will always sell out even if the market is saturated.

Again, that's what Colt thought. Glock will be able to take a quick breather when they can build an optics-ready pistol that has P30 accuracy and ergos, a trigger like a PPQ, and is as reliable as a Gen2 G17.


Okie John

Jim D
12-14-13, 22:12
They need to correct the BTF issue, the extraction/ejection issues in Gen4 and some Gen3 9mm pistols, and the WML issues in some 40-caliber pistols. what is this, 2011? Those issues have been put to rest for some time now.




Game-changers happen in the pistol world all the time (accuracy: Walther PPQ, HK P30; trigger quality: PPQ; customizable ergonomics: P30, S&W M&P; optics readiness: S&W CORE, FNH FNX 45 Tactical). Glock has lost a lot of market share because they have stopped innovating. Their last new model was a Frankengun made of existing components, and their current models are far from perfect.



Again, that's what Colt thought. Glock will be able to take a quick breather when they can build an optics-ready pistol that has P30 accuracy and ergos, a trigger like a PPQ, and is as reliable as a Gen2 G17.


Okie John
Glock is running about 1,000,000 guns behind now. They are limiting the sizes of dealer shipments to try and catchup. Right now, they don't "need" to do anything but fill existing orders.

30 cal slut
12-15-13, 09:51
what is this, 2011? Those issues have been put to rest for some time now.



Glock is running about 1,000,000 guns behind now. They are limiting the sizes of dealer shipments to try and catchup. Right now, they don't "need" to do anything but fill existing orders.

Jim, do you have a source for that backlog? Also - what are they running imports at now? 600,000 units? Does anyone know if most of the US product is actually for US markets (vs. export to countries that have Axis country import bans)?

Much obliged.

Also, somebody told me that Sig is coming out with a polymer frame pistol.

ptmccain
12-15-13, 09:56
"Polymer Frame Striker Fired Pistol "

Wow.....really? This is an amazing development.

;)

pingdork
12-15-13, 11:44
"Polymer Frame Striker Fired Pistol "

Wow.....really? This is an amazing development.

;)

Lol Let the shot show giddiness commence!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Magic_Salad0892
12-15-13, 18:05
Also, somebody told me that Sig is coming out with a polymer frame pistol.

SIG 2022?

theblackknight
12-15-13, 22:37
I have supreme confidence that they will mess this up in some way. Smith and SA did with their unneeded safeties and recalls
. Maybe this new gun won't have a safety but will have a terrible trigger and a new aftermarket can emerge just o make the gun bareable, or maybe the mags will be 80$ each or the sights will pop off after 50 rounds.

guy sajer
12-15-13, 22:45
One of the mods over on coltforum.com posted this the other day.

http://www.coltforum.com/forums/lounge/70870-new-remington-51-a.htmlI wish I could post more but I promised our rep I wouldn't . It looks good and along with the side by side testing against the competition they performed shows it will perform well .

As for the "smallish , single stack , polymer 9/40 market , the Ruger , Springfield and S&W are always on backorder so imo they will find customers . The street price will be under the Shield .

We'll see .

Jim D
12-16-13, 00:00
Jim, do you have a source for that backlog? Also - what are they running imports at now? 600,000 units? Does anyone know if most of the US product is actually for US markets (vs. export to countries that have Axis country import bans)?

Much obliged.

Also, somebody told me that Sig is coming out with a polymer frame pistol.

My source is Glock Inc. I work for a Glock distributor and communicate directly with their reps. I have no idea what the % of import to domestic production is, but a 4 letter prefix is USA made. They were historically reserved for export and JSOC orders, but they are trickling into the Blue Label (and probably commercial) market. The only difference I can tell is just their serial numbers... the 4 letter prefix is the tell-tale sign.

guy sajer
12-16-13, 07:26
I believe the Glock USA made guns are also clearly marked made in USA .

19852
12-16-13, 09:41
Was not the original Remington M51 a straight blowback .380?

okie john
12-16-13, 10:33
Was not the original Remington M51 a straight blowback .380?

Yep. Slick little thing, about the size of a Walther PP.

Like a lot of other manufacturers, Remington is playing the retro card with their re-entry into the handgun market. First they start making the 1911 again after a half-century hiatus, now this. I'm excited to see what this turns out to be.


Okie John

guy sajer
12-16-13, 10:33
A type of delayed blow back . Not simply the spring and slide weight to retard the action . There's some good sites listing more detail .

brickboy240
12-16-13, 10:40
So people are angry because Glock does not follow SIG's plan?

Also, whenever Colt strays...their new offerings are ho hum or total disasters. People still want their traditional 1911s and the Series 70 came back and appears to be here to stay.

I hope Colt and Glock never change....is that bad?

Let Ruger, S&W and others flop around and try different designs and creative finishes and variantions that come and go. I'll continue to buy Glocks and Colts and laugh at the other junk.

-brickboy240

-brickboy240

avengd7x
12-16-13, 12:12
So people are angry because Glock does not follow SIG's plan?

Also, whenever Colt strays...their new offerings are ho hum or total disasters. People still want their traditional 1911s and the Series 70 came back and appears to be here to stay.

I hope Colt and Glock never change....is that bad?

Let Ruger, S&W and others flop around and try different designs and creative finishes and variantions that come and go. I'll continue to buy Glocks and Colts and laugh at the other junk.

-brickboy240

-brickboy240

yea who needs innovation and progress, glocks are perfect for everyone and always will be.

brickboy240
12-16-13, 14:18
If "innovation and progress" happened more often....I guess I'd be more of a fan.

However, usually what happens is the Colt Double Eagle, the SIG P250 or the Para LDA.....not real "innovation and progress"

There is never any fans for "leaving well enough alone" until well enough goes through "innovation and progress" and comes out like the post 1964 Winchesters...is there?

30 cal slut
12-16-13, 14:30
My source is Glock Inc. I work for a Glock distributor and communicate directly with their reps. I have no idea what the % of import to domestic production is, but a 4 letter prefix is USA made. They were historically reserved for export and JSOC orders, but they are trickling into the Blue Label (and probably commercial) market. The only difference I can tell is just their serial numbers... the 4 letter prefix is the tell-tale sign.

Jim, muchas gracias, that actually is very helpful.

223to45
12-18-13, 14:42
Also, somebody told me that Sig is coming out with a polymer frame pistol.


They did that a long time ago

VIP3R 237
01-01-14, 23:52
Meet the R-51

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/01/01/remington-announces-r-51-pistol/

okie john
01-02-14, 00:15
Meet the R-51

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/01/01/remington-announces-r-51-pistol/

Interesting. Pretty much what we've been asking for.

At least Glock has a new .380.


Okie John

DreadPirateMoyer
01-02-14, 00:38
what is this, 2011? Those issues have been put to rest for some time now.

That's an absolute lie. I guess the 5x 2013-manufactured Glock 17s and 19s I've either fired or helped friends fix didn't get your memo, nor the people who are sending their guns to Apex Tactical for modification just to work properly, nor the multitudes of people (still) posting in the bajillion-page thread right here on the M4C pistol forum. :rolleyes:

As for this development, I welcome it. I find anything made by Remington to be extremely suspect, but I'm happy to have it on the market and hope it performs. I'd like one...if it's reliable.

ETA: Bah, a grip safety?! Bleggghgghghh.

G19A3
01-02-14, 00:51
I find anything made by Remington to be extremely suspect, but I'm happy to have it on the market and hope it performs.

+1. Remington seems to have neglected the civilian market a long time ago based on the problems with 870 Expresses. Nevermind the crappy rust-neverfree finishes.

BTW, the new pistol looks like that South African pistol from years ago...the Vektor or something.

Timbonez
01-02-14, 02:43
The new R51 has piqued my interest. The MSRP is extremely competitive. I may pick one up after my deployment, which will allow me a few months to see if any early adopters have had any issues.

ericridebike
01-02-14, 08:46
Interesting design. Will be curious to see how they do once released. I'm not really impressed/crazy about its looks, but I'd like to get my hands on one and see how it feels in the hand and shoots, etc... If it turns out to be a good, reliable shooter, not bad at that price point.

30 cal slut
01-02-14, 09:26
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgqtnA4t98U#t=88

from what i can tell, not polymer frame?

coastwatcher42
01-02-14, 10:28
I really don't think that I like the looks of it. I know...I know, functionality it what counts. But still, there are plenty of other pistols out there with proven functionality that I like the looks of. I'm actually quite disappointed because I have been looking forward to it's release.

brushy bill
01-02-14, 10:39
Wouldn't be an early adopter, but it looks like a promising design and always good to have options.

Redhat
01-02-14, 10:54
I guess that slide treatment might appeal to some...

okie john
01-02-14, 11:03
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgqtnA4t98U#t=88

from what i can tell, not polymer frame?

Per gunblast.com, it's aluminum.

I could live with that.


Okie John

Krull
01-02-14, 13:37
I kinda like this,and the fact that I wouldn't need to add another caliber to my inventory is.....appealing.
plus the looks are great,sort of new,sort of old and the price is good.

If I get a new gun it's gonna be a tough choice.

Timbonez
01-02-14, 14:31
I like the look of it very much, and as long as it functions well I'll buy one. I hope it fairs well against its competitors.

scottryan
01-02-14, 18:31
MSRP is too cheap = fail

.40 cal variant = fail

Once again we have another small single stack pistol that isn't want people want.

People want a single stack slim 9mm that is all metal and isn't sized for .40.

DreadPirateMoyer
01-02-14, 19:06
MSRP is too cheap = fail

.40 cal variant = fail

Once again we have another small single stack pistol that isn't want people want.

People want a single stack slim 9mm that is all metal and isn't sized for .40.

Agreed, especially on the MSRP. That tells me something in the gun, somewhere, is cheap: materials, design, QA/QC -- something somewhere is not up to snuff. That worries the hell out of me.

The Dumb Gun Collector
01-02-14, 20:07
I don't know guys, looks interesting to me. I am not going to presume it is crap just because they aren't ripping us off like the other manufacturers. I don't know if it is true, but the Glock book that was out said that Karl Walter, Glock's early US distributor had to convince Gaston to jack up the price on his gun because American's wouldn't buy anything reasonably priced.

I will wait a bit, but I could really see myself getting one of these. Congrats to Remington for doing something a little different.

halo2304
01-02-14, 20:19
Agreed, especially on the MSRP. That tells me something in the gun, somewhere, is cheap: materials, design, QA/QC -- something somewhere is not up to snuff. That worries the hell out of me.

Either that or just before it hits the streets the price doubles a la Magpul Masada/Bushmaster ACR.

I kinda like the looks but I'm not sure about the grip safety.

scottryan
01-02-14, 20:26
I don't know guys, looks interesting to me. I am not going to presume it is crap just because they aren't ripping us off like the other manufacturers. I don't know if it is true, but the Glock book that was out said that Karl Walter, Glock's early US distributor had to convince Gaston to jack up the price on his gun because American's wouldn't buy anything reasonably priced.

I will wait a bit, but I could really see myself getting one of these. Congrats to Remington for doing something a little different.


Given the direction of the freedom group, I don't know how you can come to this conclusion

They took the marlin 1894 (a vanguard classic American firearm) and turned it into a misfitted and misfinished piece of shit.

They killed innovation at AAC. Killed off 90 tooth, killed off the black box, killed of the integral 10/22.

Remington model 700s and 870s continue to get more junky (if that is even possible).

DPMS bolt carrier groups in AAC AR-15s

The Dumb Gun Collector
01-02-14, 20:34
Your probably right. Keeping my fingers crossed.

deejai
01-02-14, 21:03
Someone should update the thread title since the R51 is the exact opposite of polymer frame and striker fired.

brushy bill
01-02-14, 21:16
Given the direction of the freedom group, I don't know how you can come to this conclusion

They took the marlin 1894 (a vanguard classic American firearm) and turned it into a misfitted and misfinished piece of shit.

They killed innovation at AAC. Killed off 90 tooth, killed off the black box, killed of the integral 10/22.

Remington model 700s and 870s continue to get more junky (if that is even possible).

DPMS bolt carrier groups in AAC AR-15s

The MSRP was a red flag for me too. I like the concept, but honestly, the metal has a "zinc" or "pot metal" look.

jstalford
01-02-14, 22:28
I will buy one if it doesn't suck.

deejai
01-02-14, 22:33
MSRP is too cheap = fail

.40 cal variant = fail

Once again we have another small single stack pistol that isn't want people want.

People want a single stack slim 9mm that is all metal and isn't sized for .40.

The R51 is aluminum frame.

cjb
01-03-14, 07:08
Interesting to see the Pederson breech design. AFAIk they never actually used it commercially, the 32 and 380 being blowback. Also...should they ever do a 45 ..... nice. Please note the very low bore axis like a P7.

brickboy240
01-03-14, 11:18
Fingers crossed that this small single stack 9mm works.

With all these models coming out...someone is bound to finally get it right.

-brickboy240

nova3930
01-03-14, 14:45
I'm interested. Might be one for the collection if they turn out to be decent.

rsilvers
01-03-14, 18:00
Given the direction of the freedom group, I don't know how you can come to this conclusion

They took the marlin 1894 (a vanguard classic American firearm) and turned it into a misfitted and misfinished piece of shit.

They killed innovation at AAC. Killed off 90 tooth, killed off the black box, killed of the integral 10/22.

Remington model 700s and 870s continue to get more junky (if that is even possible).

DPMS bolt carrier groups in AAC AR-15s

Well, the R1911 is $750 MSRP and is the best 1911 under $1000. The quality has been excellent and they are well-liked.

The three things that you listed that were killed at AAC were an internal decision made by long-time employees. FGI did not ask us to kill those.

With all I have written about the AAC bolt carrier - about the design with the way that we do the Nickel Boron (machine it custom undersized so that we can put a dual-layer thick coating on it for corrosion-resistance on the bottom layer and high-hardness on the top layer rather than use a normal carrier with a thin single layer on it like others do), the staking of the key to military specs, they are full auto, the -40F temp range o-ring (which we actually tested), the extractor-spring that I designed (upgraded material - Mount Joy brand Rocket Wire or equivalent and costs us about 10x more than off-the-shelf springs) - you should know that we don't use DPMS bolt carrier groups. Our extractor pin is S2 tool steel. Carpenter does not even make it anymore unless you order 25,000 lbs. Because it is so expensive to acquire, it seems most companies substitute S7, which is readily available. Problem is, S7 is not as strong: S2 Yield Strength = ~300ksi. S7 Yield Strength = ~220ksi. We do it right and use the mil-spec material.

dookie1481
01-03-14, 18:21
MSRP is too cheap = fail

.40 cal variant = fail

Once again we have another small single stack pistol that isn't want people want.

People want a single stack slim 9mm that is all metal and isn't sized for .40.

M4carbine.net - where an unreleased gun sucks because it isn't expensive enough. LO ****ing L

brushy bill
01-03-14, 20:02
I'm seeing pics with a solid trigger and one with cut outs...anyone know what this will really look like?

rsilvers
01-03-14, 20:10
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2014/01/02/first-look-remington-r51-sub-compact-pistol/

Trajan
01-03-14, 20:14
Any new pistol with a non-Browning design intrigues the mechanic in me.

brushy bill
01-03-14, 20:21
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2014/01/02/first-look-remington-r51-sub-compact-pistol/

Pictured with solid and cut out triggers...anyone know what it will look like in final incarnation?

cjb
01-03-14, 21:12
Fingers crossed that this small single stack 9mm works.

With all these models coming out...someone is bound to finally get it right.

-brickboy240

Kahr already has! In steel or polymer, your choice too!

azeriosu85
01-04-14, 03:42
You know what? I love it. A Blowback 9mm, single stack, 1911 style trigger, a PERFECT grip safety (IMO). I'll take two:dirol:

and as far as MSRP, it's a Blowback singlestack 9mm. It wont have HK prices, be HAPPY for the price, as long as it works ;-)

brown3345
01-04-14, 06:38
I think this is one of the few times I wouldn't mind being an early adopter. I'm going down to the LGS and put in an order for one. Worst case, it's a dud and I'll take the hit for all my m4c brothers.

deejai
01-04-14, 09:46
You know what? I love it. A Blowback 9mm, single stack, 1911 style trigger, a PERFECT grip safety (IMO). I'll take two:dirol:

and as far as MSRP, it's a Blowback singlestack 9mm. It wont have HK prices, be HAPPY for the price, as long as it works ;-)

I think its a delayed blowback action

BSmith
01-04-14, 18:28
M4carbine.net - where an unreleased gun sucks because it isn't expensive enough. LO ****ing L

Maybe Remington will do the document drop like Spike's did to shut them up. LOL

cjb
01-05-14, 18:12
The Pederson action is a take off of the Browning Long Recoil type action. The difference being that the Browning type uses a moving barrel, bolt and carrier (or slide) wheras the Pederson uses cartridge setback with a stationary barrel. Pederson must have liked allowing the cartridge setback to his work for him, because he did that with his rifle as well, but the operating principle was completely different (except for the cartridge case setback).

Operationally, the R51 allows case setback to move its breach piece and slide rearward ever so slightly. The breach piece stops against bit of a wedge, while the slide continues rearward. At a point in the slides travel, it unlocks the breach piece (or perhaps better called the bolt), and carries it rearward a bit further, allowing it to extract the case and feed a new cartridge.

The only other pistol I've encountered like this was (sort of) the HK P9s, which used a roller delayed locking mechanism. I ended up tearing up three P9s's, but it was the FCG's that gave out, not the locking mechanism. In turn, the P9s was beyond question, the most accurate 45ACP I've ever handled, bar none. Also the softest shooting.

With its stationary barrel, and reportedly nice single action trigger, the R51 may be a real gem. I say may be... because nobody except a few writers, testers, and engineers have really put on through their paces. And I want to see one in .45!!

scottryan
01-05-14, 18:51
Well, the R1911 is $750 MSRP and is the best 1911 under $1000. The quality has been excellent and they are well-liked.

The three things that you listed that were killed at AAC were an internal decision made by long-time employees. FGI did not ask us to kill those.

With all I have written about the AAC bolt carrier - about the design with the way that we do the Nickel Boron (machine it custom undersized so that we can put a dual-layer thick coating on it for corrosion-resistance on the bottom layer and high-hardness on the top layer rather than use a normal carrier with a thin single layer on it like others do), the staking of the key to military specs, they are full auto, the -40F temp range o-ring (which we actually tested), the extractor-spring that I designed (upgraded material - Mount Joy brand Rocket Wire or equivalent and costs us about 10x more than off-the-shelf springs) - you should know that we don't use DPMS bolt carrier groups. Our extractor pin is S2 tool steel. Carpenter does not even make it anymore unless you order 25,000 lbs. Because it is so expensive to acquire, it seems most companies substitute S7, which is readily available. Problem is, S7 is not as strong: S2 Yield Strength = ~300ksi. S7 Yield Strength = ~220ksi. We do it right and use the mil-spec material.


Granted that is probably true about the AAC BCGs but what am I suppose to think when I pull them out of a DPMS and AAC and they look the same with the same markings? What is Iraqgunz suppose to think? He is the one who brought this up.

What is your excuse for 6 out of 6 Marlin 1894s I handled at my local Scheels had misfitting wood at the back of the receiver?

3 our of 6 had canted rear sights.

5 out of 6 had dried bubbles in the clear coat on the wood.

Several reports of this on the internet.

I can't even buy a real Model 700 with a full aluminum bedded HS precision stock anymore, except for maybe a few non-catalog models such as a 5R with the green stock and stainless finish.

Every hunting rifle is a cheap SPS with that cheap plastic SPS or hogue stock, even on the XCR and other "high end" hunting rifles they come with the junky SPS stock.

scooter22
01-05-14, 19:48
I'm not going to pass premature judgment on something that hasn't even hit the market, but what does this have over a Colt Pocket Nine?

rsilvers
01-05-14, 20:43
I'm not going to pass premature judgment on something that hasn't even hit the market, but what does this have over a Colt Pocket Nine?

I think I have one of those. If I remember, the trigger was DAO - long and heavy. I have not tried an R51 trigger, but it is said to be straight back and 5.5 lbs. Also the Colt is 6+1 rounds and the slide is tough to rack. The R51 is able to be an unusually light spring. For that matter, the Kahr is also a DAO and I can't be happy with the trigger.

Armati
01-05-14, 20:53
Un-freaking believable. I love the Pedersen design. I wish it was used in more pistols. Please Remington, don't F this up.

Now, if only they would make a Remington 53 in .45 ACP!

cjb
01-05-14, 21:04
What does it have going for it....speculation only but... great trigger, low bore axis, soft recoil, and phenominal accuracy.

rsilvers
01-05-14, 21:52
Granted that is probably true about the AAC BCGs but what am I suppose to think when I pull them out of a DPMS and AAC and they look the same with the same markings? What is Iraqgunz suppose to think? He is the one who brought this up.

I think this was about if Remington can make a good handgun, and the R1911 is really good. I just ordered one and two R51s.

AAC rifles are what I know the most about. Everything that I have done with the rifles was with the goal to be the best, the most reliable, and to win contracts.

They have KAC handguards, 4150 barrels with nitriding, barrel extensions made to our drawing, pinned gas blocks, Geissele triggers, and CTR stocks. The bolt carriers are proprietary to AAC. We call out how the staking must be done, and we inspect for that. We have special castle nuts made just for our rifles to ensure that they can be staked properly. We use AAC-designed parts whenever they are better than standard common AR parts. While our bolt is of normal mil-spec dimensions and material (C158 with an S2 extractor pin), it is assembled at AAC, uses our enhanced extractor spring, and is not plated because I was concerned about hydrogen embrittlement.

TAZ
01-06-14, 00:09
MSRP is too cheap = fail

.40 cal variant = fail

Once again we have another small single stack pistol that isn't want people want.

People want a single stack slim 9mm that is all metal and isn't sized for .40.

I'll give you that the FG hasn't been all that good when it comes to innovation and increased QC and more quality, but that aint got nothing to do with pricing. I wouldn't nit pick the MSRP as that will surely change as the final config is settled on and the street value is assessed by how well the first few batches move. Pricing is generally set by what the market can bear more than cost +. The only reason Glocks run $500+ and HK's go for over $900 is cause people are willing to pay it.

Who cares if its sized for 40. Im no ballistics engineer, but really how much size increase will that rely mean. G19 and G23 seem identical in size as do the MP9 and 40. So what if its a bit bigger than the 9mm. It may actually make the 9mm unit more rugged.

No fan of Remington handguns, but as mentioned the R1 seems to have been done well. The market is flooded with small 9mm handguns, maybe not single stack ones but definitely reliable, concealable guns that have made a name for themselves over the last few decades. The majority of consumers won't know recoil, blowback, Pederson form a hole in the ground. They will know the difference between the Glock brand and a no name in the pistol market. Remington may need to make a splash in another way.

Personally I like the idea of a fixed barrel 9mm, so I hope this thing doesn't suck.

LibertyNeverDies
01-06-14, 13:42
I see this gun being a commercial success as long as it is reasonably reliable. At its price point it will certainly put a dent in Kel Tec's market share. The fact that it is all metal and at a relatively low price point means it will sell like wildfire to the Fudds. It is also very lightweight. If it proves to be extremely reliable I don't see why others wouldn't buy it. For a first time gun buyer or an "uninformed" buyer the Remington name means a lot. I'm kind of glad we aren't getting just another polymer pistol.

Jim D
01-06-14, 13:53
It's the same overall size and capacity at the S&W Shield. If they are available, if they run, and if the trigger doesn't suck it should do just fine.

Night sight options will probably take an eternity to come online, though.

dookie1481
01-10-14, 12:15
It's the same overall size and capacity at the S&W Shield. If they are available, if they run, and if the trigger doesn't suck it should do just fine.

Night sight options will probably take an eternity to come online, though.

There are already holsters and CT grips available, so hopefully sights won't be far behind.

SteveS
01-12-14, 11:19
Agreed, especially on the MSRP. That tells me something in the gun, somewhere, is cheap: materials, design, QA/QC -- something somewhere is not up to snuff. That worries the hell out of me. All plastic pistols are way overpriced. But then only a fool would buy first run anything.

rsilvers
01-12-14, 11:31
But then only a fool would buy first run anything

Only a fool? So a 70 year old guy should wait a few years to reduce the risk of his $350 purchase not being perfect? What if he is not poor?

My Glock 19 is from 1988. I still carry it at times. I don't think I was foolish even though the pistol was very controversial at the time.

Saginaw79
01-12-14, 12:21
Y'all must have some awesome crystal balls or tarot cards or a time machine or something. Hasn't been released, nor has it been tested by anyone out here, and yet everyone is already an expert on this gun and assures us it is crap. Before its released no less. that is AMAZING! So why the hell didn't you warn us about Obama and the panic? that would have helped...

DreadPirateMoyer
01-12-14, 17:20
So why the hell didn't you warn us about Obama and the panic? that would have helped...

A lot of us did.

On top of that, we're not proclaiming we're 100% sure, but based on the known variables and past history, they're good predictions. Have you seen current products from FGI, and Remington specifically? Have you experienced the utter drop in quality across that whole brand? And then this pistol comes in a few hundred cheaper than its competitors? It's not too hard to put the dots together and develop some expectations.

So yes, we don't know with certainty, but it's a pretty good guess. After all, what would you think of DPMS entering the handgun market with a G17 competitor at $400 MSRP? Exactly.

guy sajer
01-12-14, 17:34
And then this pistol comes in a few hundred cheaper than its competitors? Just to clarify , the R51 is intended to compete against the Ruger LC9 , S&W Shield , Kahr CW9 , Beretta Nano , etc . The price point for the 51 is here and falls right in the middle .

DreadPirateMoyer
01-12-14, 19:43
Just to clarify , the R51 is intended to compete against the Ruger LC9 , S&W Shield , Kahr CW9 , Beretta Nano , etc . The price point for the 51 is here and falls right in the middle .

No, it doesn't. It does not fall in the middle. It falls well below all of them at an MSRP of $389. MSRP's of what you mentioned listed below, along with a few other competitors:


M&P Shield 9 (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_809560_-1_780153_757781_757781_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y) - $449
Kahr CW9 (http://www.kahr.com/pistols/kahr-cw9.asp) - $485
Beretta Nano 9 (http://www.berettausa.com/nano/) - $445
Ruger LC9 (http://www.ruger.com/products/lc9/models.html) - $449
Kahr PM9 (Polymer) (http://www.kahr.com/pistols/kahr-pm9.asp) - $786
Walther PPS (http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/the-walther-pps-gun-review/) - $735

guy sajer
01-12-14, 19:57
Not exactly "hundreds of dollars cheaper" but regardless of some manufacturers inflated MSRP listings , wholesale cost and street price will be very close on these models . All these models sell for under $400 real pricing . You can go to Buds online to compare actual selling prices . The R51 is not undercutting anyone .

Magsz
01-12-14, 20:02
If Remington can produce it at that price and the market will bear that price then WHY the hell are you guys complaining?

Did anyone ever stop to think about the fact that MAYBE we are over paying for our little "pocket 9's?"

I can get a full size M&P for 439 bucks. Why then am i paying 389 for a shield? Oh, right, because the market will bear that. I would be MUCH happier to pay 300 dollars with no concerns whatsoever because i know that will not necessarily reflect on the quality of the item. Expecting to pay more money in order to receive a better product is foolish, at least in the firearms world.

guy sajer
01-12-14, 20:08
No complaints here . Just relating that the R51 was introduced to compete and sell in the under $400 price point where much of the sales occur . Good move on their part . If the gun functions well it will be well received .

brushy bill
01-12-14, 20:30
If the gun functions well it will be well received .

That is the question. Hopefully it won't take long to find out.

guy sajer
01-12-14, 20:33
The Rem rep for our area estimated not long after the SHOT Show for the first shipments .

DreadPirateMoyer
01-12-14, 20:36
Not exactly "hundreds of dollars cheaper" but regardless of some manufacturers inflated MSRP listings , wholesale cost and street price will be very close on these models . All these models sell for under $400 real pricing . You can go to Buds online to compare actual selling prices . The R51 is not undercutting anyone .

Yes, it is exactly a few hundred cheaper (at least quote me correctly): between $60 and $400 cheaper, to be exact, which is not in the middle as you stated. As for wholesale and street pricing being very similar between all of these, you don't know that. In fact, all we know is that street cost is usually cheaper than MSRP by some percentage, and the R51 will continue to be cheaper than its competitors if this trend continues with it like 99.9% of the market. Your argument that it will fall in the middle of the pack has no founding.


If Remington can produce it at that price and the market will bear that price then WHY the hell are you guys complaining?

Did anyone ever stop to think about the fact that MAYBE we are over paying for our little "pocket 9's?"

I can get a full size M&P for 439 bucks. Why then am i paying 389 for a shield? Oh, right, because the market will bear that. I would be MUCH happier to pay 300 dollars with no concerns whatsoever because i know that will not necessarily reflect on the quality of the item. Expecting to pay more money in order to receive a better product is foolish, at least in the firearms world.

Do you operate in the same firearms market I do? Sure, higher prices don't always indicate good quality (Bushmaster, Stag, Windham), but low prices generally do (Taurus, DPMS, Barska). That's not always true, but it's true more often than not, and given Remington's plummeting quality over the last few years on virtually all of the guns it makes, there's no reason to suddenly think that you'll be getting something good out of them at $300 street price.

Not sure why everyone's getting their panties in a bunch. It's a fair prediction based upon past history -- a lot more than suddenly assuming this will be Remington's sudden return to quality.

guy sajer
01-12-14, 20:46
As for wholesale and street pricing being very similar between all of these, you don't know that. My post count may be low , but I'm not one to invent my way into the discussion . Over the counter retail firearms is what I've done for the past 29 yrs . I do in fact know what dealer's pay and what is a real world street price on all these models .

Sorry I butted in here sir . Nothing more to add to the discussion .

DreadPirateMoyer
01-12-14, 21:05
My post count may be low , but I'm not one to invent my way into the discussion . Over the counter retail firearms is what I've done for the past 29 yrs . I do in fact know what dealer's pay and what is a real world street price on all these models .

Sorry I butted in here sir . Nothing more to add to the discussion .

You know what the dealer pricing is on the R51? Mmmmk. Unless you can provide verification that, for some reason contrary to the rest of the market, the R51 won't be less than MSRP, then no, it won't be falling into the middle of the market. It will, at the very least, be at the low end of the market in price, and quite possibly the cheapest 9mm carry gun listed above.

You say you aren't inventing your way into a discussion, but based on everything we know of the market, it sure seems like something is off in your argument. The R51 has a lower MSRP than any of its competitors. There's no reason to expect other guns with higher MSRP's to suddenly street price below the R51 (putting it in the middle). On top of that, it's made by Remington, which has faltered when it comes to making good products, and lower-priced products in the firearms market are more often than not lower-quality options.

That's good enough reason for us to be skeptical about the gun.

Magsz
01-12-14, 21:51
I dont know, what firearms industry do YOU flit around in?

We are talking about a single stack, shield sized, 9mm concealed carry gun, not a full sized duty weapon. Tauras, Bersa and their ilk "demand" the price that they do because they are inferior products. They CANNOT sell at 550 dollars per unit and survive in the market. Free markets are self correcting by and large.

IF the pistol works, it shoots well and Remington will stand behind the units that DONT work, again, i raise the question, what is WRONG with a 300 dollar pistol in the aforementioned category?

I just dont see a problem here...

LibertyNeverDies
01-13-14, 07:32
This design is different from anything I know about on the market today. It is cheaper than most of it's competitors but it is also a different design meaning manufacturing techniques are different. Using modern manufacturing techniques Remington may have found it is cheaper to produce a quality gun using a variation of the Pederson design. I am hoping this is the case.

rsilvers
01-14-14, 00:22
Not sure why everyone's getting their panties in a bunch. It's a fair prediction based upon past history -- a lot more than suddenly assuming this will be Remington's sudden return to quality.
As far as I know, the R1911 is the best 1911 for under $1000, and it is just $650. So if you want to go by history - you would look at that - the only previous handgun product there is to look at.

azeriosu85
01-14-14, 02:55
New Video:



http://youtu.be/NgmCxuW3rgY

cjb
01-14-14, 06:05
This design is different from anything I know about on the market today. It is cheaper than most of it's competitors but it is also a different design meaning manufacturing techniques are different. Using modern manufacturing techniques Remington may have found it is cheaper to produce a quality gun using a variation of the Pederson design. I am hoping this is the case.

The cost of production has nothing to do with the price an item sells for.

The value of any item in the open market is determined by its features and benefits as compared to its competition and by its usefulnes and favor with the buying public. A lot of work goes into determining what the price of a product will be. Prices are often adjusted - up or down - in reaction to sales performance, or as a stategy to gain market share. All of this has absolutely nothing to do with how expensive that product is to manufacture. The flip side is, engineering and manufacturing is always pressed to make the cost of production as low as possible while retaining the feature set, and perceived quality.

Thats the nuts and bolts of it.

As for the R51, I'm surprised by its suggested MSRP. Could be some strategy here to gain market share. Could be they already have an "improved" pistol already set to go, and are bringing this unit to market in order to gain market share and help determine exactly what the price point should be. That is not an uncommon strategy, btw. Its hard to justify a price increase, but an improved model will help with the perception of increased value, thus helping the buying public rationalize the greater expense.

Just thought I'd add a perspective from a large manufacturers viewpoint.

Urban_Redneck
01-14-14, 07:39
As far as I know, the R1911 is the best 1911 for under $1000, and it is just $650. So if you want to go by history - you would look at that - the only previous handgun product there is to look at.

Really?

In my opinion, this year, Remington (and Glock for that matter) have set their sights on Ruger's compact pistol market share. Attacking from different directions, the R51 is good looking, controllable, full caliber pistol, at an attractive price point. The Glock 42 puts a small hand friendly, controllable, pistol with the Glock brand at a price that will appeal to more buyers. I imagine if the 42 succeeds in that role, it will be a gateway to future full caliber pistol sales.

It will be interesting to see how how this plays out.

rsilvers
01-14-14, 08:21
Really the best 1911 under $1000? I think so. I can't think of one I would rather have in that price range.

Dave James
01-14-14, 12:51
Damn I hope this works out, as an old guy who has carried the original in 380, it is one sweet system and fits my hand well, if it doesn't crap out I will replace my LC9

VIP3R 237
01-14-14, 16:05
Its looks bigger than I expected. Photo is by Andrew of Vuurwapen Blog

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u440/Jason_Prisbrey/IMG_4720123089434_zpsba9010a3.jpg

LibertyNeverDies
01-14-14, 17:37
That has to be the ugliest front end I've ever seen.

30 cal slut
01-14-14, 18:45
Guys, I am at SHOT and handled it.

Thumbs down.

Everybody with me agrees it is gritty. Slide racking sucks.

The checkering on the front of the mag well hurts my hands. Women will not like this as is.

Trigger is ok.

MSRP has been raised from $389 to $420.

Sorry guys, I will pass.

okie john
01-14-14, 18:54
That has to be the ugliest front end I've ever seen.

This is the company that gave us the 660 Mohawk, which combines the ugliest parts of the Weatherby line with the worst of the Colt Python. I'm just glad it's not worse.


Okie John

cjb
01-14-14, 19:51
Guys, I am at SHOT and handled it.

Thumbs down.

Everybody with me agrees it is gritty. Slide racking sucks.

The checkering on the front of the mag well hurts my hands. Women will not like this as is.

Trigger is ok.

MSRP has been raised from $389 to $420.

Sorry guys, I will pass.

Its probably a fair guess to say that most folks will not buy the pistol in order to rack the slide, but to pull the trigger on loaded rounds. If the trigger's ok, thats a big plus. In that picture next to the 1911's, you can really see the low bore axis. Very interesting.

LibertyNeverDies
01-14-14, 20:02
I'll wait till I see some positive reviews before I pick one up. I'm hoping Remington will fix any issues the gun might have before they release it. The fact that the firearms blog gave it a positive pre review excited me since I usually don't see the "best gun ever" take on most of the guns they review. I heard that it wasn't at media range day? That leads me to believe they might be having trouble they weren't expecting which leads me to wonder if the gun on display at shot is the gun that will be released.

Kilo 1-1
01-14-14, 20:08
Its looks bigger than I expected. Photo is by Andrew of Vuurwapen Blog

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u440/Jason_Prisbrey/IMG_4720123089434_zpsba9010a3.jpg

That's pretty large. No smaller than a G19 in terms of length/height?

babypanther
01-14-14, 20:40
Given the direction of the freedom group, I don't know how you can come to this conclusion

They took the marlin 1894 (a vanguard classic American firearm) and turned it into a misfitted and misfinished piece of shit.

They killed innovation at AAC. Killed off 90 tooth, killed off the black box, killed of the integral 10/22.

Remington model 700s and 870s continue to get more junky (if that is even possible).

DPMS bolt carrier groups in AAC AR-15s

THIS. Freedom Group can suck a fatty. Also, I was getting my underwear all in a tangle about the quality of Remington. Then I remembered spending 1300 dollars like an idiot on a Field and Stream Special Edition 1100. The silver cap fell off the bottom of the pistol grip the first time taking it out. However, I have had 6 great dove seasons with it and a pretty good run of weekend skeet rounds with no problems.

wahoo95
01-14-14, 21:27
Please set your Phasers to Stun

LibertyNeverDies
01-15-14, 14:35
The ugly front end isn't even noticeable with the suppressor attached.

MountainRaven
01-15-14, 22:08
As far as I know, the R1911 is the best 1911 for under $1000, and it is just $650. So if you want to go by history - you would look at that - the only previous handgun product there is to look at.

If I were an employee of a Freedom Group company, I'd probably want an R1, too. I'd probably want the one that has the company that I work for's logo and logo'd grips on it, though, with the extended barrel and suppressor-height sights.

But for under $1000, I think I'd rather have a Springfield. Still. And if my budget is $1000, I think I'd save up a little bit extra and buy one of the "best production 1911s that has ever come out of the factory" - per LAV and Yam - Colts. In fact, the last Stainless XSE I recall seeing was right at $999.99….

Jim D
01-19-14, 13:06
Guys, I am at SHOT and handled it.

Thumbs down.

Everybody with me agrees it is gritty. Slide racking sucks.

The checkering on the front of the mag well hurts my hands. Women will not like this as is.

Trigger is ok.

MSRP has been raised from $389 to $420.

Sorry guys, I will pass.
I went too, it's a turd.

I had high hopes for it, but it's a let down.

The trigger reset is non-existent... think worse than a Sig DAK. It is a hinged trigger, NOT a 1911 sliding trigger.

Also, the grip safety is pretty narrow and needs to go in pretty deep. I have large but thin hands, and I could easily fail to disengage the grip safety. Is pretty rough and you feel/hear it go in and out. Think XD profile with P7 feedback.

The last observation is that the trigger guard area at the top (closest to the locking block) has a super sharp almost 90 degree corner... that will loose finish and wear on holsters at an alarming rate. I found it uncomfortable to even brush up against.

These pistols were neither at the media day, nor the range day... yet almost every Remington employee was walking around with one holstered in their booth. This clearly speaks to the underlying problems with functioning that this thing must have.

Remington has a lot of work to do to save this design. Anyone who has handled or shot a Shield will know this thing is junk in its current form.

ra2bach
01-19-14, 14:26
MSRP is too cheap = fail

.40 cal variant = fail

Once again we have another small single stack pistol that isn't want people want.

People want a single stack slim 9mm that is all metal and isn't sized for .40.

you completely underestimate the general gunshop buyer. people will buy this because of the price and it looks spacy...

30 cal slut
01-19-14, 16:21
MSRP was raised to $420 from $389, this was a last minute change, guys.

30 cal slut
01-19-14, 16:21
I'm just gonna tuck this here in case anyone is interested.

http://www.alexcityoutlook.com/2014/01/15/latva-south-to-produce-barrels-for-new-remington-pistol/

rjacobs
01-19-14, 16:44
I was dissapointed as well.

Slide racking felt like crap, BUT I believe thats a product of the rotating barrel.

The trigger reach was LONG. I have small hands and it was real hard for me to get a good grip on the gun AND pull the trigger correctly. It was REALLY hard to get square on the trigger, I kept pushing it from the side. This will not relate well to sales to women IMO.

I also felt the trigger had marshmallows in it. Very spongy. no reset so to speak.

The front checkering was a bit large for my taste.

Overall another disappointment at SHOT.

MountainRaven
01-19-14, 17:56
you completely underestimate the general gunshop buyer. people will buy this because of the price and it looks spacy...

No… they'll buy it because of the price and because it says 'Remington' on it.

okie john
01-19-14, 18:12
I'm just gonna tuck this here in case anyone is interested.

http://www.alexcityoutlook.com/2014/01/15/latva-south-to-produce-barrels-for-new-remington-pistol/

The last part of the article says that Remington expects 100,000 units per year. Hmmmm...


Okie John

brown3345
01-19-14, 18:24
Maybe I'll change my mind when I posted earlier about taking one for the team and being a first adopter. I really wanted this to be a winner. What are the chances of them fixing the issues before they send it ot market?

LibertyNeverDies
01-19-14, 18:32
If they are late on the release I will take that as a good sign.
What I am still failing to comprehend is how The Firearms Blog who I has seen a few negative reviews from in the past gave this gun a thumbs up saying it had a great trigger, the grip safety was good for a grip safety and the slide was smooth. 80% of what I have heard from those at Shot contradicts this.

JHC
01-19-14, 19:40
If they are late on the release I will take that as a good sign.
What I am still failing to comprehend is how The Firearms Blog who I has seen a few negative reviews from in the past gave this gun a thumbs up saying it had a great trigger, the grip safety was good for a grip safety and the slide was smooth. 80% of what I have heard from those at Shot contradicts this.

Probably because that described the guns they shot. That's all.

cjb
01-19-14, 19:46
I was dissapointed as well.

Slide racking felt like crap, BUT I believe thats a product of the rotating barrel.

The trigger reach was LONG. I have small hands and it was real hard for me to get a good grip on the gun AND pull the trigger correctly. It was REALLY hard to get square on the trigger, I kept pushing it from the side. This will not relate well to sales to women IMO.

I also felt the trigger had marshmallows in it. Very spongy. no reset so to speak.

The front checkering was a bit large for my taste.

Overall another disappointment at SHOT.

The barrel does not rotate. In fact its stationary.

I thought that article interesting in that the rifling is broach cut. Yikes.... I don't think it makes much of a difference in a pistol for accuracy, but the best rifles tend to be broach rifled. It looks like they're making barrels from tube steel? Says something about 3/16 inch and being reduced in size. I'm assuming thats wall thickness, and at some place in the manufacturing line, the part is drilled and reamed.

That was a nice glimpse into local manufacturing. I'd have expected pre-rifled blanks being turned, cut and chambered, and not individually rifled.

LibertyNeverDies
01-19-14, 19:46
Probably because that described the guns they shot. That's all.

Does that mean that the design is sound but their mass manufacturing techniques are lacking?
Can someone with product design/development and manufacturing experience speak to that?

brown3345
01-19-14, 20:30
If you look at pre production cars that are reviewed by car and driver and other car mags, they often have many little glitches that need to be worked out before the line is released to the public. Hopefully this is the case here as well but from what I have heard I'm not going to hold my breath to long.


Does that mean that the design is sound but their mass manufacturing techniques are lacking?
Can someone with product design/development and manufacturing experience speak to that?

rsilvers
01-19-14, 21:14
If they are late on the release I will take that as a good sign.
What I am still failing to comprehend is how The Firearms Blog who I has seen a few negative reviews from in the past gave this gun a thumbs up saying it had a great trigger, the grip safety was good for a grip safety and the slide was smooth. 80% of what I have heard from those at Shot contradicts this.
I didn't check reset, but I pulled the trigger on a bunch of them at Shot, and they felt like clean-breaking single action triggers to me - like what I would expect from a 1911 - except the trigger does pivot, contrary to what I read. I also read someone post that the trigger pull was long. I think they are out of their minds. To me a long pull is a Kahr and this is nothing close to that.

30 cal slut
01-20-14, 07:58
A friend at the show reminded me that we as discerning end-users account for a minority of gun buyers.

Will this gun sell? Probably.

Is this good for Freedom Group? Yes. This is their third handgun offering. They have Remmy and Para 1911's.

"pocket pistol" demand is growing at twice the rate of semis in general as the popularity of ccw grows and trends favor smaller and lighter.

would i buy the r51? nope but that is just me.

JHC
01-20-14, 08:04
Does that mean that the design is sound but their mass manufacturing techniques are lacking?
Can someone with product design/development and manufacturing experience speak to that?

IDK but I don't think that many gun scribes and other industry folk were making up the positive reviews. Whether those turn out to be representative of actual production guns remains to be seen.

brushy bill
01-20-14, 08:48
IDK but I don't think that many gun scribes and other industry folk were making up the positive reviews. Whether those turn out to be representative of actual production guns remains to be seen.

I quit buying gun rags years ago. Even the worst guns get ok to good reviews and I seldom see anyone review a gun they don't find acceptable. Not like in the old days with Pistolero and one other magazine that I cannot recall at the moment. Believe Phil Engeldrum produced them. As I recall, they gave brutally honest assessments, but it has been a long time and I may be only partially correct.

Bigun
01-20-14, 20:49
I'm not going to pass premature judgment on something that hasn't even hit the market, but what does this have over a Colt Pocket Nine?

Availability for the win Alex. Colt still seems to find Civi sales Icky but that seems to be changing a bit.

rsilvers
01-20-14, 22:53
Am I the only one who noticed how the R51 does not have the slide engraved with: "WARNING: READ INSTRUCTION MANUAL BEFORE USE." Or "WARNING: CAPABLE OF FIRING WITH MAGAZINE REMOVED."

High Altitude
01-20-14, 23:56
IDK but I don't think that many gun scribes and other industry folk were making up the positive reviews. Whether those turn out to be representative of actual production guns remains to be seen.

Put out a negative, but honest, review and see how the manufactures treat you.

There is a reason why just about every single review where the manufacture is providing the firearm, is positive.

This is why you are starting to see a lot of guys providing their own firearms or borrowing firearms for review so they can actually give an honest opinion.

Quiet
01-21-14, 10:04
That's pretty large. No smaller than a G19 in terms of length/height?

http://www.triangletactical.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Remington-R51-Corrected-Graph.jpg

C4IGrant
01-21-14, 10:09
I handled this thing at Shot and was underwhelmed. I won't be owning or stocking this gun.




C4

Big A
01-21-14, 10:36
http://www.triangletactical.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Remington-R51-Corrected-Graph.jpg

Wow, I had a bunch of interest in this gun when it was announced but that chart just completely obliterated all of it...

rsilvers
01-21-14, 10:56
Wow, I had a bunch of interest in this gun when it was announced but that chart just completely obliterated all of it...

Not to me. I have a G26 but hate it. I would never carry it unless, well, I had to. It is too wide. My goal is not to have the smallest pistol - I need a certain size to shoot well. I hated the Kahr trigger. I carry a P7 PSP or G19, and think those are the right size that I want to carry, but the P7 is too heavy, and the G19 would be great, except, well - I never mastered shooting a Glock. So I want a lighter P7 (something with the same good trigger pull on each shot). Something slim. I want a P7 with a plastic or aluminum frame. I have hope that the R51 will fill that role. In the end, it depends how I can shoot it. If I can shoot it like a P7 then that will be a good thing - and I see a very good chance of that.

JHC
01-21-14, 11:34
Not to me. I have a G26 but hate it. I would never carry it unless, well, I had to. It is too wide. My goal is not to have the smallest pistol - I need a certain size to shoot well. I hated the Kahr trigger. I carry a P7 PSP or G19, and think those are the right size that I want to carry, but the P7 is too heavy, and the G19 would be great, except, well - I never mastered shooting a Glock. So I want a lighter P7 (something with the same good trigger pull on each shot). Something slim. I want a P7 with a plastic or aluminum frame. I have hope that the R51 will fill that role. In the end, it depends how I can shoot it. If I can shoot it like a P7 then that will be a good thing - and I see a very good chance of that.

+1 in general albeit I love the G26 as much as the G19 but this basic point is mine as well. A very shootable, thin, compact (but not necessarily sub-compact/micro) could be very handy. I think the overlays show it compares favorably for footprint that direction. The big thing will be reliability, quality, trigger and we shall see.

JHC
01-21-14, 11:38
Put out a negative, but honest, review and see how the manufactures treat you.

There is a reason why just about every single review where the manufacture is providing the firearm, is positive.

This is why you are starting to see a lot of guys providing their own firearms or borrowing firearms for review so they can actually give an honest opinion.

I think that was more pronounced in the gun mags of the '70's, '80's and '90's which I read voraciously. I am more judicious of what magazine I purchase now but I have tended to see better reporting of warts and all over recent years. A recent review of the Colt polymer Pony for instance in a big high gloss mag reported its malfunctions.


But either way, some of these shooters were not gun scribes but otherwise notables in the gun community incl LE based on what I've heard from folks who had friends there. But the gun has to prove itself in production mode on the streets. Time will tell.

30 cal slut
05-20-14, 06:08
Remington pulled all references to the R 51 off of its website. And very quietly so.

Hmmmm.....

guy sajer
05-20-14, 06:24
That is strange , but they forgot to scrub this announcement .

http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/press-releases/2014/Corporate/RemingtonEntersConcealedCarryHandgunMarket.aspx

19852
05-20-14, 06:47
Not to me. I have a G26 but hate it. I would never carry it unless, well, I had to. It is too wide. My goal is not to have the smallest pistol - I need a certain size to shoot well. I hated the Kahr trigger. I carry a P7 PSP or G19, and think those are the right size that I want to carry, but the P7 is too heavy, and the G19 would be great, except, well - I never mastered shooting a Glock. So I want a lighter P7 (something with the same good trigger pull on each shot). Something slim. I want a P7 with a plastic or aluminum frame. I have hope that the R51 will fill that role. In the end, it depends how I can shoot it. If I can shoot it like a P7 then that will be a good thing - and I see a very good chance of that.

I heard Walther is coming out with a plastic SS 9mm roughly G19 size and uses the P-7 gas delayed blowback system..

HES
05-20-14, 10:09
It's called the Walther CCP. It's their attempt at making a PPQ single stack, kinda. I was all hot and bothered for this until I found out no ambi controls.

http://www.waltherarms.com/ccp/#.U3tv6PldW9Q

RHINOWSO
05-21-14, 16:39
It's called the Walther CCP. It's their attempt at making a PPQ single stack, kinda. I was all hot and bothered for this until I found out no ambi controls.

http://www.waltherarms.com/ccp/#.U3tv6PldW9Q

And an unnecessary manual safety for nanny state acceptance. :mad:

R/Tdrvr
05-21-14, 19:32
Remington pulled all references to the R 51 off of its website. And very quietly so.

Hmmmm.....

I wonder why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ65wbjq6t0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTzS4sQfn4U

HES
05-21-14, 20:14
And an unnecessary manual safety for nanny state acceptance. :mad:
I believe that's for the import points.

krm375
06-18-14, 05:22
Anything more on the 51? kinda has the look of a hammerless Walther PPK and similar design with the recoil spring wrapped around the barrel.

krm375
03-08-15, 12:21
Going to bump this up, Anyone have one of the updated, R51's?

nimdabew
03-08-15, 12:42
Nope. I doubt anyone will try to get another one after Remington flubbed the last one and several people had to wait months to either get a new pistol or receive refunds on their pistol. I won't be buying one.

jstalford
03-08-15, 13:50
Yeah that was like the worst flop in history.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TF82
03-08-15, 14:37
A single stack 9mm designed to compete with the Shield......

"Dear Remington,

Please don't screw this up.

V/R,

Serious"
I clicked on the first page thinking this was about a post disaster rerelease. Guess they weren't watching this forum.

samuse
03-08-15, 20:02
HA!

I called that thing an utter POS before they even released it.

Noodles
03-09-15, 20:44
Fwiw... If anyone is (for some unkown reason) maybe considering a post-failure-maybe-they-fixed-it R51...

It was EASILY one of the worst guns I handled at SHOT. Over those 3 days I handled almost every gun available and the R51 stood out as one of the worst ergos, triggers, materials, finish, and mechanical characteristics. Also high on the list was the DPMS GenII (grit and shit-fest), the Rem defense stuff was laughably heavy... Remington did not have a great booth!

I though Khar (a brand I dislike) had infinitely better handgun examples. Hell, I no joke, think HiPoint had nicer guns than the R51. And again, this is assuming it functions flawlessly from day one until the end of time.

CatSnipah
03-09-15, 20:49
^^^ yep I'd buy a hi point long before I'd ever consider a Remington piece of dog doody after watching that dumpster fire.

brianc3
03-09-15, 21:22
Fwiw... If anyone is (for some unkown reason) maybe considering a post-failure-maybe-they-fixed-it R51...

It was EASILY one of the worst guns I handled at SHOT. Over those 3 days I handled almost every gun available and the R51 stood out as one of the worst ergos, triggers, materials, finish, and mechanical characteristics. Also high on the list was the DPMS GenII (grit and shit-fest), the Rem defense stuff was laughably heavy... Remington did not have a great booth!

I though Khar (a brand I dislike) had infinitely better handgun examples. Hell, I no joke, think HiPoint had nicer guns than the R51. And again, this is assuming it functions flawlessly from day one until the end of time.

How can a company that big put out such a massive flop? Did they do no testing on their first production run. They try to explain it away as severe tolerance stacking

Shao
03-10-15, 06:13
I'd really like to see Remington fix the R51 for real... It's a unique design. Pederson was a mechanical genius and if the design was good enough for Patton, there must be some merit to it. I don't believe it is a bad design - just poor execution on Remington's part. I won't be buying one any time soon but in a couple of years if the revamps prove themselves, I may consider picking one up. It really is a shame that they rushed it to market, possibly destroying any credibility that the gun may have earned, possibly causing it to disappear into obscurity.

Noodles
03-10-15, 16:04
How can a company that big put out such a massive flop? Did they do no testing on their first production run. They try to explain it away as severe tolerance stacking

I have no idea. But even feeling the gun it's a turd. It's a LONG grip to trigger reach for a 9mm. Like easily longer than a Glock19 despite the R51 being single stack. No joke, feels like it was designed to feed 38spl.

It's just a bad gun. Yea, someone at some point in the chain should have said, no, let's not do this.