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okie john
12-15-13, 19:39
A thread about long-range shooting on another forum got me horned up to shoot my G17 on the 100-yard line, so I did some this weekend.

The pistol is my EDC, a Gen3 G17 with a Wilson barrel, Meprolight adjustable night sights, an OEM (-) connector, fresh OEM springs, and a twenty-five cent trigger job. The front sight is a 0.125" tritium from Ameriglo with blaze-orange Testor's model paint so I can see it with my 52-year-old eyes. A few months ago, I cut the frame to take G19 mags and lightly stippled it.

I shot two loads: Federal 9MS (standard 147-grain JHP) and Federal 9BP (standard 115-grain JHP). Both are old-school, but both have shot well in this pistol in the past, although the 9BP edges the 9MS. 9MS hits POA at 25 yards. Offhand groups average around 4" there. With the same sight setting, 9BP hits about 3" high at 25 yards and about 1" high at 50 yards. I haven't shot it much at 25 yards, but offhand groups average around 6" at 50 yards.

I shot the first target with 9MS on Saturday. 15 shots fired, 11 hits. I aligned the sights normally, but held just below the top of the shoulders instead of COM. The top two hits are flyers. The real group is centered in the target's belly--not as good as high A-Zone hits, but enough to make the recipient sit down, shut up, and reconsider his wicked ways. The wind flags showed a little wind, but not enough to blow rounds off the paper, so I was pretty sure that my misses had been low.

http://i564.photobucket.com/albums/ss88/silversixone/9MSSaturday.jpg (http://s564.photobucket.com/user/silversixone/media/9MSSaturday.jpg.html)

With that in mind, I shot the second target with 9MS on Sunday. To catch those pesky low misses from the day before, I hung another target below the IPSC target to catch them. No luck. There was even less wind than on Saturday, so I have no idea where those five rounds (or the four on the previous day) went. Anyway, 15 shots fired, 10 hits--the one in the bottom of the A-Zone that looks like a .40-caliber hole is actually two hits almost on top of each other. They're close enough that I missed the second one in the initial count, but it's definitely there. It's even more of a fluke than yesterday's head shot.

http://i564.photobucket.com/albums/ss88/silversixone/9MSSundayRangeSetup.jpg (http://s564.photobucket.com/user/silversixone/media/9MSSundayRangeSetup.jpg.html)

By chance I shot both groups with 9MS on the same target. This is the back of it: 30 shots fired, 21 hits.

http://i564.photobucket.com/albums/ss88/silversixone/9MSBothDays.jpg (http://s564.photobucket.com/user/silversixone/media/9MSBothDays.jpg.html)

Next I tried 9BP. I expected this load to hit higher than 9MS. I did--but not as much as I expected. It did group better--15 shots, 15 hits.

http://i564.photobucket.com/albums/ss88/silversixone/9BPII.jpg (http://s564.photobucket.com/user/silversixone/media/9BPII.jpg.html)

A couple of people had been watching me shoot. Afterwards, they came up and asked me the secrets of how to hit with a Glock that far away, but I think that I disappointed them. My "secrets" included:

Solid grip, stance, sight alignment, trigger control, and follow-through. All five are important, but most people overlook follow-through.
A good 25-yard zero with standard sight picture and holding a little higher than usual. No need to hold up the front sight like Elmer Keith.
Little to no wind. If the wind flags are moving much at all, then stay inside of 50 yards or work on speed.
Pretty good ammo. I used old stocks of old-school ammo. I'd like to shoot all of this again with newer, more accurate ammo.
Fairly narrow front sight (just a bit narrower than the IPSC target itself at 100 yards) with high-visibility paint.


Looks like I'm GTG if I ever get attacked by an IPSC target in the open.

Let me know if you have questions.


Okie John

Kain
12-15-13, 19:49
Nice to see someone working out at distance. I see entirely too many out there who think that a long shot with a pistol is 25 meters. Usually the same who think long range with a rifle is 200 meters. I do enjoy pushing out my handguns and seeing what I can do at distance. My Glock takes a little more concentration than some other handguns at longer ranges, but my 92 is a breeze to put holes in a target at 100 meters, mostly because the single action trigger is so nice. Anyway, is damn good training, since if I can hit a target at 100 meters, at 15 it SHOULD be a piece of cake.

jpeezy
12-15-13, 19:50
That's good shooting! We often do "walk backs" during downtime at the rifle range on steel from the 25 to 100 for bragging rights. I have only used my duty G21 for this and the front sight eats the target from about the 50 yard line and on. I'll take my 17 up next time and give it a run. I attended Tmacs TAPS course and we did walk backs to the 100 one handed, needless to say he was one of the few who made it back to the 100 as well as one other student.

bigbore40
12-15-13, 19:54
Good shooting ! Easier said then done. It took me a few runs until I could get consistent hits with the rmr'd g17 but that cheating comparing todoing it with irons .

steyrman13
12-15-13, 20:03
That is pretty good shooting! I think it is nice to see people push the envelope with pistols.
I need to get out and shoot paper at 100-200 for results to see how it compares. I have shot at a 8-12" steel (don't recall the exact size) at 200 yrds with a Amercian Classic (About same level at RIA 1911s but with better sights not mine, but was testing it out for a friend New out of the box) and I got 4 out of 10 shots. Of course the first 3 or 4 were trying to figure out hold-offs and aiming reference. I'll see if I can replicate that again on video for any doubters. There were witnesses.

graffex
12-15-13, 21:01
I have no problem hitting targets at 100 yards with my g17. People seem to be surprised how far you can get hits on targets at long ranges with a pistol. I know I got some weird looks at the range when I was doing it :)

RogerinTPA
12-15-13, 23:48
Good shooting. Most people concentrate on 7 yards (7 yard snipers according to Pat Rogers) and in, and totally neglect the 25 yard and more aspect. It's a total confidence builder to know you can hit at that distance. In many of the classes I've attended, quite a bit of shooting was performed at the 25, 50 and 100 yard line. After shooting accurately at the farther distances, getting accurate hits from the 25 yd line and in suddenly becomes magical.

G19A3
12-16-13, 00:20
Okie John,

Just a quick off topic. Any difference in recoil between the MS and BP? I want to introduce a few females to shooting pistol in bigger calibers and want the lightest recoiling 9mm round for the Glock 19. I have always thought 147gr would be it, but someone suggested Federal 9BP as the lightest recoiling.

T2C
12-16-13, 07:36
That is good shooting from the standing position. I like to do the same thing with my Glock 22 and Glock 17. As the distance increases beyond 100 yards the number of hits per shots fired drops quickly, but you can still put a few rounds on target.

Try shooting from the roll over prone position and see if it tightens up your groups. You might be surprised.

ST911
12-16-13, 10:18
Okie John,

Just a quick off topic. Any difference in recoil between the MS and BP? I want to introduce a few females to shooting pistol in bigger calibers and want the lightest recoiling 9mm round for the Glock 19. I have always thought 147gr would be it, but someone suggested Federal 9BP as the lightest recoiling.

I've shot a lot of the 9MS in the last year. It's a soft shooting load with a nice impulse in Glocks 17 and 19. It's also an accuracy leader. Unfortunately it also produced the most ammo related failures of any 9mm shot for the year. Rolled case mouths, locking the guns up tight.

The 9BP is a light, comfortable load as well and handles similarly to other 115 training ball.

Either would be fine for you.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/MISC/9MSgen4G19.jpg

okie john
12-16-13, 10:26
Okie John,

Just a quick off topic. Any difference in recoil between the MS and BP? I want to introduce a few females to shooting pistol in bigger calibers and want the lightest recoiling 9mm round for the Glock 19. I have always thought 147gr would be it, but someone suggested Federal 9BP as the lightest recoiling.

They're both probably fine for new shooters. Neither one of them kicks very hard--they're certainly softer shooting than NATO ball.


Okie John

okie john
12-16-13, 10:28
That is good shooting from the standing position. I like to do the same thing with my Glock 22 and Glock 17. As the distance increases beyond 100 yards the number of hits per shots fired drops quickly, but you can still put a few rounds on target.

Try shooting from the roll over prone position and see if it tightens up your groups. You might be surprised.

Thanks.

Good point. As I was standing there, I realized that if I had to shoot that far for real, then I'd probably be down behind something and thus able to use a rest.


Okie John

BrigandTwoFour
12-16-13, 10:35
Good shooting!

I've taken my Beretta 92A1 out to the 100 yard line on a steel plate range and managed about 50%, but I haven't done any serious practice at that range.

LightningFast
12-16-13, 10:42
Thanks.

Good point. As I was standing there, I realized that if I had to shoot that far for real, then I'd probably be down behind something and thus able to use a rest.


Okie John

Out of curiosity, have you tried shooting that distance from prone? IIRC, one of the Bianchi Cup stages that keeps pushing distance more/less requires shooters to go prone on the furthest distance. People new to the match often try shooting it standing and have a much harder time.

Either way, impresive shooting. One of the hardest stages I've ever shot at a USPSA match had 3 poppers at 50 yards.

usmcmeek
12-16-13, 19:36
I was out on the range with a buddy a couple weeks back. We both shot a G17 (stock barrel), at a steel silhouette, at 200 yards. We just hoped we may hit the dang thing once. We were shooting PMC 115gr FMJ range stuff and were hitting about 7 out of every ten, while aiming center mass standing. I have never shot a pistol past 50 and could not believe a 9mm would reach that far without a serious arch. It ended being a wonderful training day because it made us really focus on the trigger control. I think I will incorporate 100 yard shots for marksmanship training on paper targets for now on.

T2C
12-17-13, 08:02
I was out on the range with a buddy a couple weeks back. We both shot a G17 (stock barrel), at a steel silhouette, at 200 yards. We just hoped we may hit the dang thing once. We were shooting PMC 115gr FMJ range stuff and were hitting about 7 out of every ten, while aiming center mass standing. I have never shot a pistol past 50 and could not believe a 9mm would reach that far without a serious arch. It ended being a wonderful training day because it made us really focus on the trigger control. I think I will incorporate 100 yard shots for marksmanship training on paper targets for now on.

What kind of ammunition were you shooting at 200 yards? What was your hold over? How much did you hold off to compensate for rotational drift?

usmcmeek
12-17-13, 08:21
"We were shooting PMC 115gr FMJ range stuff and were hitting about 7 out of every ten, while aiming center mass standing." It was not a scientific shoot. Aimed center mass, standing, on a 200 yard target. We squeezed the trigger and the steel plate went ding. Believe me, we aren't great pistol shooters, but we focused on fundamental marksmanship skills. It lead me to believe that the 9mm in 115gr is as not limited as I once thought. Meaning, 50 yard shots are very possible in the real world. Try it. I bet you'd surprise yourself if you focus on the basics.

Voodoo_Man
12-17-13, 08:30
As someone who regularly shoots 25y and has on several occasions done 50, 100, 150, 200 and 250 yard pistol work I can tell you that your ability to hit at that distance has as much to do with your ammo choice as your trigger control.

I would probably never engage anyone 50 yards and over with a pistol (unless I absolutely had to), but would feel comfortable taking shots under stress 50-25.

okie john
12-17-13, 10:32
I would probably never engage anyone 50 yards and over with a pistol (unless I absolutely had to), but would feel comfortable taking shots under stress 50-25.

Exactly.

Long-range pistol shooting is as much about learning what WON'T work as it is about learning what will.


Okie John

TiroFijo
12-17-13, 11:12
Just to show how deceptive some things are, if you shoot a G17 (115 gr bulllet at about 1160 fps, pretty normal load) and it is zeroed at 50 yds (this is, its point of impact is about 0.6" high at 25 yds, pretty normal), then the POI will be about 4.25 feet lower at 200 yds... some people notice this perfectly, some don't.

I plink a lot with all kind of handguns, from large magnum revolvers to compact pistols, at our local IHMSA range with targets at 25, 50, 75, 100, 150 and 200 m. It is a lot of fun and with a little practive you'll be amazed at the accuracy that is possible. Past 100-125 m holdover is a bitch for most handguns if you are shooting small targets. It is easy to figure out on the range with some zeroing shots, but not in real life when you have not accurate idea of the range (to remember holdover), or dust in the backstop to tell you where the shots are impacting.

ST911
12-17-13, 12:02
I shoot pistols at distance (25yds +) more often than I used to. I've shot my EDC G19 out to 200yds on steel plates. A long gun may be ideal, but may not be available or deployable. Open spaces and long hallways are common, and confrontations are fluid. This was brought home to me in a very real way when I found myself more than a mile from my rifle, doing a running slinky with a bad guy across open fields where I was never closer to him than ~50yds.

For many, FBI and OIS statistics on gunfight distances have become the crutch we lean on to justify shooting at distances we suck much less at. And while exercises at near range may help our marksmanship at distance, working the skills at distance and being honest with ourselves will always pay off up close.

GunBugBit
12-17-13, 14:34
To be able to get shots onto a man-size target at 100 yards is very commendable; you have inspired me to incorporate more longer-distance pistol shooting into upcoming range sessions.

Surf
12-17-13, 23:24
For years I have been preaching about shooting pistols at long range and I used to get some heat over it. Good to see that it is now being championed by some notable instructors and that it is starting to be more widely utilized during training. It has many benefits.

SeriousStudent
12-18-13, 00:18
For years I have been preaching about shooting pistols at long range and I used to get some heat over it. Good to see that it is now being championed by some notable instructors and that it is starting to be more widely utilized during training. It has many benefits.

I don't doubt you at all. But it seems wacky to me that people would ever give you grief about it. What were their arguments against the practice? Distance makes me really, really focus. As others have stated, there is no room for sloppy shooting at all.

Thanks very much.

Voodoo_Man
12-18-13, 05:22
I don't doubt you at all. But it seems wacky to me that people would ever give you grief about it. What were their arguments against the practice? Distance makes me really, really focus. As others have stated, there is no room for sloppy shooting at all.

Thanks very much.

The "practical is best" or "train what you'll actually use" crowd, the naysayers, those that can't hit shit at distance and automatically downplay it to make themselves feel better.

I was told at my department range that I would never shoot 25 yards without supporting my against a fixed object. They were STUNNED to see I can make accurate hits at 25 yards unsupported.

While I understand the idea of training the skills you will actually use, I am a big advocate of having skill sets that are outside the norm. Having the ability to make distance shots accurately and under stress is very important in the real world since you never know how far your target is going to be or in what type of situation you will find yourself. Better off having the skill than not.

TiroFijo
12-18-13, 05:37
Another skill worth having is to shoot at small metal targets (about 2"x2" or a bit larger, the size of rifle small bore IHMSA chicken) at ranges from 15 to 35 m. It is very confidence inspiring (and fun) to find the precise POI at those ranges and clear the racks, even at a good pace.

Don't always practice just shooting "center of chest" on an IPSC target at short ranges.

FlyAndFight
12-18-13, 11:46
By coincidence, this past Saturday I was shooting my G17 at targets at 100 yards as well. But to be honest, it was more for fun than for any type of long-distance training.

Targets consisted of water filled milk gallons and water bottles. Definitely more difficult to make hits than what I expected. Bullet drop was considerably more than what I was expecting, as well.

I will definitely be adding long distance pistol shooting to my practice sessions in the future.

Surf
12-18-13, 14:33
I don't doubt you at all. But it seems wacky to me that people would ever give you grief about it. What were their arguments against the practice? Distance makes me really, really focus. As others have stated, there is no room for sloppy shooting at all.

Thanks very much.I'll relate a story that sums up my feelings and when I decided long distance shooting was a benefit.

In the academy (class of around 60) there were 3-4 of us who really enjoyed shooting. 25 years ago, we were issued .38 wheel guns. Our quals were shot on B27's with 60 rounds and a max of 600 points and extended to 40 yards. Beyond the 600 points the X counts were tallied for bragging rights and tie breakers or determining the top shot awards. Our particular group got together often and if you were not shooting a perfect 600 and in the high 40's to low 50's on X count you couldn't compete. It got to the point where we started shooting longer distances, progressing out to 100+ yards just to shake things up. We were getting damn fast and accurate at up close ranges and we noted that our overall X counts went way up quickly once we introduced distance shooting combined with up close, un-timed extreme accuracy drills.

Fast forward 4 years. A buddy who was in this shooting group and now in patrol responded to a "man with a knife" call. Media was there almost immediately. I was on my first go round with my current unit and we got the call also. Prior to our arrival the guy broke patrol perimeter and the chase was on. Perp comes across a female media person, grabs her and pulls her along with him into a wooded rough terrain area. My buddy catches a glimpse of them, sees perp pointing knife at female at arms length trying to drag her along and is yelling at her to basically get her ass in gear or he would kill her. Buddy thinks he is going to kill her right there. He lined up the shot, hit the guy in the chest. He lets go of her, she runs, he grabs his chest, sits down, lies down and the situation is over.

I arrive with our team, get to the scene, start getting the details and was somewhat amazed. 60 yard shot, uneven terrain, standing unsupported, dead center hit with the revolver. Due to terrain he couldn't effectively close any distance. He was ready to make a follow up shot but the guy let go of the female immediately and she scurried down the hill a bit and the guy ignored her. My buddies reply "Thank goodness we shoot at distance a lot". The take off from this was his mental mindset being the key. He was not mentally defeated by the distance of the shot in relation to his available hit zone size. For him, it had become a routine distance with a generous hit zone. He mentally processed it as an easy shot having done it so much at much longer distances with much smaller hit zones. His big concern was ballistic effectiveness but was ready to follow up and felt he had to make that shot right then to give the female a chance. I would bet that 99% of other cops in his shoes would not have taken that shot. We trained for it, gained confidence in ourselves and our equipment and he made it look easy.

No one ever really questioned my shooting abilities however when I took over control of our training program I introduced long range pistol shooting and many thought I was wasting time and resources. At first many thought that was OK for me because I was "unique" but felt it was not going to benefit the rest of the guys in the training. The way I introduce the shooter with a basic "aim small, miss small" concept and eventually start relating that to longer ranges incrementally. This breaks down the stigma where many shooters don't think they can hit a target purely due to distance because they never been that far away and never attempted pistol shots, or were told it wasn't going to happen. Well as expected it has produced huge results and is now a common thing for us to walk out to around 80-100 yards and shoot standard sized (10" center circle) poppers, standing unsupported. I actually take new students out to 200 yards. Sad thing, our current agency has dumbed down the quals which go to a max distance of 15 yards and a total of 20 rounds fired. It is easy to see the difference in shooters from the time the quals changed. Our unit quals quarterly and initially followed suit on the distances set in the departmental qual. Again when I took over I pushed the M4 quals back to 100 and the pistol back to 25, which was a stretch with our past command. I would still go to 40 or 50 yards with the pistol if I could swing it.

In essence, many especially in LE used to think that distance shooting was just a form of "trick shots" having no practical application in LE. It is claimed to being just a waste of training time and ammo because the reality of engaging a target at long distance with a pistol in LE is unrealistic at best. Many still have these attitudes and when I run across that or when I introduce distance into teaching my students I relay this story. There are so many benefits, which I am sure you already know that, but many trainers in LE don't get those points. The only thing they see is the impracticality of taking a long distance shot. They cannot fathom the benefits that this may give a shooter at close in distances. They are simply ignorant.

SeriousStudent
12-18-13, 22:00
Surf, thank you very much for taking the time to create and post that reply. I do appreciate it. I'm also going to forward the link to several friends.

As always, we appreciate what you share with us. Stay safe.

SeriousStudent
12-18-13, 22:04
The "practical is best" or "train what you'll actually use" crowd, the naysayers, those that can't hit shit at distance and automatically downplay it to make themselves feel better.

I was told at my department range that I would never shoot 25 yards without supporting my against a fixed object. They were STUNNED to see I can make accurate hits at 25 yards unsupported.

While I understand the idea of training the skills you will actually use, I am a big advocate of having skill sets that are outside the norm. Having the ability to make distance shots accurately and under stress is very important in the real world since you never know how far your target is going to be or in what type of situation you will find yourself. Better off having the skill than not.

Bold type added - Very much agree.

T2C
12-19-13, 06:53
There is no reason to avoid shooting at distance. People who don't think it is necessary generally cannot hit what they shoot at inside 25 yards. The same group usually struggles to shoot a high score at 100 yards with a carbine.

Shooting longer distances is a confidence builder for a student. It also forces them to apply the basics.

My theory is that if you can make decent hits at 100 yards with a pistol, making fast, accurate, hits at 15 yards will become second nature. You may also find yourself in a situation where you cannot get to a rifle and need to defend yourself with a pistol at 50-100 yards. I cannot think of one negative aspect associated with shooting a pistol out to 100 yards.

Psalms144.1
12-19-13, 09:51
At my last team, we shot weekly whenever we were in town - say twice a month for 3-5 hours on the range. Ammunition authorizations were generous, to say the least. The range we shot at was a 100 yard range, and there was an old, nasty, chewed up and no longer "functional" (wouldn't fall) standard pepper popper way out at the base of the berm. At the end of nearly every range session, our routine was for everyone to take whatever training ammunition they had left in their magazines and spend it shooting the popper, standing unsupported.

Even my BAD shooters got tot he point where a 50% hit ratio was achievable, and my good shooters would ring steel with 12+ rounds every magazine. This was with 2006 vintage G19s wearing meprolight NS (which ain't the best for "precise" shooting).

BLUF - it's definitely an achievable goal, and the exercise definitely increased our confidence in our ability to hit "low probability" targets. Since our line of work mandated pistols only in MOST of the areas we operated, being able to "reach out" with our issued G19s was a must.

+1 on the naysayers who quote 3 rounds at 3 yards in 3 seconds as an excuse to not shoot anything "far away" like the 15 yard line and beyond. Most of the most vocal proponents of that point of view, in my experience, have been guys who simply can't shoot, lack the confidence to try, or are in love with standing flat footed at the 5 yard line and making the banging noise as fast as they can yank the trigger. My fix for that on my team was this - we shot our agency qualification every range session. I changed from Transtar-II standard scoring to the "5 ring" being an imposed Tactical-T - a 2" wide "T" about 5" across at the top centered around where the "optical orbits" would be on Blue Man, running down center of the thorax to about the sternum. The "3 ring" was a triangle running from base of the throat to nipple-nipple on either side. Agency standard is 210/300 to pass, which, given those scoring requirements was a challenge - do-able but you had to have your stuff together at the 15 and 25 yard lines. Any round off silhouette was an automatic fail. Any failure to qual "grounded" a guy until the next range session when he could pass my qual. Talk about motivation!

Regards,

Kevin

okie john
12-22-13, 22:49
Thanks to everyone for the kind words.


Out of curiosity, have you tried shooting that distance from prone? IIRC, one of the Bianchi Cup stages that keeps pushing distance more/less requires shooters to go prone on the furthest distance. People new to the match often try shooting it standing and have a much harder time.

I haven't shot prone with a pistol in a while, but I'm going to shoot more at 100 yards from a rest.

Shooting these targets and reading this thread, I have seen two sets of responses: astonishment from those who think that pistols are useless beyond seven yards, and acknowledgement from those who think that 100-yard pistol shooting is no big deal.

As I pondered that, I realized that most pistol shooters know they should be able to draw, hit multiple targets, and reload quickly. (The fact that almost none of them can do these things is a separate issue.) I also realized that several other skills should be understood more widely than they are, not so we can be sideshow trick shots, but because studying and mastering them gives us confidence. Along with being able to hit at long range, I think that the list should include the ability to hit:

while moving
moving targets
with either hand to the point of true ambidexterity
in low light


What have I overlooked? These should be things that require only a good handgun and carry gear, good ammo, good sights, a solid zero, and some sort of light.

And to go a step farther, what standards should we use as we train on these things?


Okie John

Voodoo_Man
12-23-13, 04:33
I have had a discussion with a few people about shooting pistols from prone.

The consensus was that if you are in a situation where you absolutely need to make a shot, all you have is a pistol and there is nothing to rest the pistol against/on top of, then prone with a "golf grip" may be the best option.

Otherwise, best not taking that.

T2C
12-23-13, 11:35
I have had a discussion with a few people about shooting pistols from prone.

The consensus was that if you are in a situation where you absolutely need to make a shot, all you have is a pistol and there is nothing to rest the pistol against/on top of, then prone with a "golf grip" may be the best option.

Otherwise, best not taking that.

I agree. Other than the idea of pushing yourself and your equipment to test your abilities, practicing at long range may have a practical application. If you cannot get to a rifle to defend yourself and cannot displace to an area away from the threat, you may have to take a shot at 100+ yards. I shoot from the roll over prone position at distance with a great deal of success until I get past 150 yards, then accuracy really starts to drop off.

I use a two handed grip. What's a "golf grip"?

Voodoo_Man
12-23-13, 12:16
Pistol in strong hand bottom two fingers, pinky and ringer finger wrap into left hand pointer finger and middle finger. This helps keep the gun at eye level so you don't have to push your face down.

Apricotshot
12-23-13, 12:50
Good shooting. Most people concentrate on 7 yards (7 yard snipers according to Pat Rogers) and in, and totally neglect the 25 yard and more aspect. It's a total confidence builder to know you can hit at that distance. In many of the classes I've attended, quite a bit of shooting was performed at the 25, 50 and 100 yard line. After shooting accurately at the farther distances, getting accurate hits from the 25 yd line and in suddenly becomes magical.

Just took Pat's Level 2 Handgun when you first posted this. Most of his drills were 15 yard or more. I see the great benefit in practicing more from the 25yd line and I will incorporate that more so than anything 10 yds and in. Randy Cain also recommends from the holster pair presentations at 25 yds in 2.5 seconds as time limit. Great drill.

Surf
12-23-13, 12:52
.....


As I pondered that, I realized that most pistol shooters know they should be able to draw, hit multiple targets, and reload quickly. (The fact that almost none of them can do these things is a separate issue.) I also realized that several other skills should be understood more widely than they are, not so we can be sideshow trick shots, but because studying and mastering them gives us confidence. Along with being able to hit at long range, I think that the list should include the ability to hit:

while moving
moving targets
with either hand to the point of true ambidexterity
in low light


What have I overlooked? These should be things that require only a good handgun and carry gear, good ammo, good sights, a solid zero, and some sort of light.

And to go a step farther, what standards should we use as we train on these things?


Okie JohnI believe that if time and resources are available the more extreme you take the training the easier the up close stuff becomes. As an example I will shoot standard poppers on the move (nearly the same pace I would SOTM at 7-15 yards) working out to 50+ yards, or until percent hits drop off to unacceptable. What does this accomplish? Doesn't mean that I am going to do this practically speaking, but it makes the up close stuff incredibly simple. Gain confidence, hyper aware of the technique and fundamentals and following them rigidly and not getting sloppy. Any key component not working and you don't get hits. As for any skill the more you can master the better you will be, or more well rounded. Varying skills can have direct benefit for one another. Being able to be very accurate SOTM increases my static non timed accuracy.

As for being a switch hitter, I give another example. To renew several of my certifications that expire every 3 years from a certain national organization, I sometimes attend one of their courses when my agency brings them in. I have repeated many of the courses and they don't change much over the years. Instead of getting frustrated like a few other instructors, I take the opportunity to train other aspects. As a natural right hander, I have taken entire courses as a lefty, just to improve myself in another area. I learn quite a bit from doing this. Again if time and resources allow for it, go for it. It will only make you a well rounded or better shooter overall. Getting good at one skill can directly improve other areas as well.


I have had a discussion with a few people about shooting pistols from prone.

The consensus was that if you are in a situation where you absolutely need to make a shot, all you have is a pistol and there is nothing to rest the pistol against/on top of, then prone with a "golf grip" may be the best option.

Otherwise, best not taking that.It is always a wise idea, if the opportunity / situation allows for it, to have a lower center of gravity, more points of contact on the weapon and more points of contact with mother earth or a supporting structure. For myself the golf grip is not my own personal best option unless if more elevation is needed on the pistol. I like to use a 45* body angle, support leg bent which helps to roll me more a bit on my side and laying my head on my primary shooting arms bicep. Pistol with normal grip and base of pistol or my hands in contact with the ground.


I agree. Other than the idea of pushing yourself and your equipment to test your abilities, practicing at long range may have a practical application. If you cannot get to a rifle to defend yourself and cannot displace to an area away from the threat, you may have to take a shot at 100+ yards. I shoot from the roll over prone position at distance with a great deal of success until I get past 150 yards, then accuracy really starts to drop off.

I use a two handed grip. What's a "golf grip"?As I somewhat mention above, training at extended distances breaks down mental barriers and also drives the shooter to become hyper focused on their base fundamentals. If anything is not correct it will show quickly. In essence training at distance isn't purely about shooting from a far away, but it can have some huge benefit to the up close shooting or your fundamentals or skill sets in general. Of course the methodology and or the how and why it is done is key to positive results. Just plopping someone out at 100 yards and having them burn ammo trying to hit a target without what I would consider a correct progression, is more than likely a waste of effort and not going to yield as positive of results. Again it really isn't about hitting threats at 100+ yards. But it sure is damn nice to know that you can put out some harassing fire if not lethal fire if need be at long distance in order to stop a thread or just to GTFO as necessary.

Voodoo_Man
12-23-13, 13:11
While I am totally for multiple contact points, as I stated, unless I have to take that shot I'm not going to try. It is situation dependant of course, I'm my AO 100 yards in any direction are houses, walls and people, furthest I would feel comfortable engaging is about 25 maybe 35 (4 lane intersection, diagonal sidewalk to sidewalk), nor would I likely ever have the opportunity.

I will agree with you on the mental barriers. I started with shooting 25 yards and thought it was ridiculous, then watching people put 3 inch groups at that distance is amazing and doable.

It does feel a little like chasing your owb tail, however. I run a 200 drill often enough to know that I am content with a 170 - 180 since any more will effect my speed.

T2C
12-23-13, 14:21
Pistol in strong hand bottom two fingers, pinky and ringer finger wrap into left hand pointer finger and middle finger. This helps keep the gun at eye level so you don't have to push your face down.

I have never tried this and will give it a go. Maybe I can increase my hit percentage at 200 meters with this technique.

PA PATRIOT
12-24-13, 11:40
I have always advocated shooting at distance with what you carry on a daily basis, whether its a .380, 38spl, 9mm or what ever as this is what your going to be deploying once the fight begins. Many practice at distance with full sized guns and that's fine but I have to ask are you carrying that full sized gun 365 days a year or are you as most of us are doing running a little compact or mid-sized gun for concealment purposes?

MistWolf
12-24-13, 13:17
I'm not a great pistol shot by any stretch of the imagination. Best I can hope for is barely adequate with practice.

When I was in my very late 30s, I lived near a local range and bought an annual membership, They had a steel silhouette target hanging at 200 yards. For kicks, I tried a Charter Arms Bulldog in 44 Special on it. The revolver had a short barrel, around 2.5 - 3 inches. I found I could consistently ring the steel 1 or 2 times out of 5 at that distance.

While growing up, we spent a lot of time out in the desert and had plenty of cheap ammo and opportunity to try long range "Hail Mary" shots. We learned that a bullet can carry far distances

abanks8245
12-25-13, 23:21
about three years ago, I went shooting with friends, and on a hill about 100-110 yards away, there sat a propane tank, empty with holes in it already, I took a couple of shots at it and hit it with first two rounds, from there on out, I could hit the propane tank with regularity. From there on out, I have been amazed and continuing to be able to shoot my glock 17 and 19 at extended ranges, further than 50 yards when possible, and 25 yards is still not close with a pistol. Its good to know that i'm capable of using my handgun at unorthodox ranges regardless of the "NORM"

usmcvet
01-02-14, 11:16
Surf

You opened my eyes. This is the best thing I've read in a long time. I am going to make some changes at work. The 60 yard shot drove it home for me. I have never shot at more than 50 yards with my pistol. Never further than 25 for qual. Thanks for sharing.



I'll relate a story that sums up my feelings and when I decided long distance shooting was a benefit.

In the academy (class of around 60) there were 3-4 of us who really enjoyed shooting. 25 years ago, we were issued .38 wheel guns. Our quals were shot on B27's with 60 rounds and a max of 600 points and extended to 40 yards. Beyond the 600 points the X counts were tallied for bragging rights and tie breakers or determining the top shot awards. Our particular group got together often and if you were not shooting a perfect 600 and in the high 40's to low 50's on X count you couldn't compete. It got to the point where we started shooting longer distances, progressing out to 100+ yards just to shake things up. We were getting damn fast and accurate at up close ranges and we noted that our overall X counts went way up quickly once we introduced distance shooting combined with up close, un-timed extreme accuracy drills.

Fast forward 4 years. A buddy who was in this shooting group and now in patrol responded to a "man with a knife" call. Media was there almost immediately. I was on my first go round with my current unit and we got the call also. Prior to our arrival the guy broke patrol perimeter and the chase was on. Perp comes across a female media person, grabs her and pulls her along with him into a wooded rough terrain area. My buddy catches a glimpse of them, sees perp pointing knife at female at arms length trying to drag her along and is yelling at her to basically get her ass in gear or he would kill her. Buddy thinks he is going to kill her right there. He lined up the shot, hit the guy in the chest. He lets go of her, she runs, he grabs his chest, sits down, lies down and the situation is over.

I arrive with our team, get to the scene, start getting the details and was somewhat amazed. 60 yard shot, uneven terrain, standing unsupported, dead center hit with the revolver. Due to terrain he couldn't effectively close any distance. He was ready to make a follow up shot but the guy let go of the female immediately and she scurried down the hill a bit and the guy ignored her. My buddies reply "Thank goodness we shoot at distance a lot". The take off from this was his mental mindset being the key. He was not mentally defeated by the distance of the shot in relation to his available hit zone size. For him, it had become a routine distance with a generous hit zone. He mentally processed it as an easy shot having done it so much at much longer distances with much smaller hit zones. His big concern was ballistic effectiveness but was ready to follow up and felt he had to make that shot right then to give the female a chance. I would bet that 99% of other cops in his shoes would not have taken that shot. We trained for it, gained confidence in ourselves and our equipment and he made it look easy.

No one ever really questioned my shooting abilities however when I took over control of our training program I introduced long range pistol shooting and many thought I was wasting time and resources. At first many thought that was OK for me because I was "unique" but felt it was not going to benefit the rest of the guys in the training. The way I introduce the shooter with a basic "aim small, miss small" concept and eventually start relating that to longer ranges incrementally. This breaks down the stigma where many shooters don't think they can hit a target purely due to distance because they never been that far away and never attempted pistol shots, or were told it wasn't going to happen. Well as expected it has produced huge results and is now a common thing for us to walk out to around 80-100 yards and shoot standard sized (10" center circle) poppers, standing unsupported. I actually take new students out to 200 yards. Sad thing, our current agency has dumbed down the quals which go to a max distance of 15 yards and a total of 20 rounds fired. It is easy to see the difference in shooters from the time the quals changed. Our unit quals quarterly and initially followed suit on the distances set in the departmental qual. Again when I took over I pushed the M4 quals back to 100 and the pistol back to 25, which was a stretch with our past command. I would still go to 40 or 50 yards with the pistol if I could swing it.

In essence, many especially in LE used to think that distance shooting was just a form of "trick shots" having no practical application in LE. It is claimed to being just a waste of training time and ammo because the reality of engaging a target at long distance with a pistol in LE is unrealistic at best. Many still have these attitudes and when I run across that or when I introduce distance into teaching my students I relay this story. There are so many benefits, which I am sure you already know that, but many trainers in LE don't get those points. The only thing they see is the impracticality of taking a long distance shot. They cannot fathom the benefits that this may give a shooter at close in distances. They are simply ignorant.

Slater
01-02-14, 13:56
Recalling the Fairchild AFB shooting incident, the gunman was engaged by an SP with his M9 at a range of 70 yards. SP fired 4 rounds, two of which connected (head and shoulder) and ended the rampage.:

http://fairchildhospitalshooting.com/OSI%20Summary.pdf

usmcvet
01-02-14, 16:05
Recalling the Fairchild AFB shooting incident, the gunman was engaged by an SP with his M9 at a range of 70 yards. SP fired 4 rounds, two of which connected (head and shoulder) and ended the rampage.:

http://fairchildhospitalshooting.com/OSI%20Summary.pdf

Outstanding Shooting Aiman Brown. 70 yards 4 shots and two hits with a 9mm against a man with a rifle!

T2C
01-02-14, 20:02
Pistol in strong hand bottom two fingers, pinky and ringer finger wrap into left hand pointer finger and middle finger. This helps keep the gun at eye level so you don't have to push your face down.

I tried the golf grip at 200 meters today and it did not work for me; it felt a little awkward. I shot 30 rounds at a B-27 and did not put any rounds on target using this technique. The fact that it was 15 degrees, snowing and blowing did not help.

Shooting roll overprone I hit 2 out of 30, one in the 7 ring at 11 o'clock and one in the white near the edge of the target at 7 o'clock. I may have to use more hold over using the golf grip technique.

When I shoot roll over prone, I place my right cheek on my right bicep lock out my strong arm and apply rearward pressure with the other hand. You can draw a straight line from the muzzle of the pistol to the bottom of my right foot when I get into position.

I only fired 100 rounds today. I am getting a little too old to be laying in the snow for long periods of time.


I won't give up on the golf grip technique just yet. I will give it another go or two.


It would appear that Airman Brown knows how to utilize his equipment. Bravo Zulu.

usmcvet
01-02-14, 21:07
I tried the golf grip at 200 meters today and it did not work for me; it felt a little awkward. I shot 30 rounds at a B-27 and did not put any rounds on target using this technique. The fact that it was 15 degrees, snowing and blowing did not help.

Shooting roll overprone I hit 2 out of 30, one in the 7 ring at 11 o'clock and one in the white near the edge of the target at 7 o'clock. I may have to use more hold over using the golf grip technique.

When I shoot roll over prone, I place my right cheek on my right bicep lock out my strong arm and apply rearward pressure with the other hand. You can draw a straight line from the muzzle of the pistol to the bottom of my right foot when I get into position.

I only fired 100 rounds today. I am getting a little too old to be laying in the snow for long periods of time.


I won't give up on the golf grip technique just yet. I will give it another go or two.


It would appear that Airman Brown knows how to utilize his equipment. Bravo Zulu.

What about starting at 50 yards and then moving out so you can get some better idea of the hold over.

T2C
01-02-14, 21:17
What about starting at 50 yards and then moving out so you can get some better idea of the hold over.

My pistol is zeroed at 50 yards, so I will start at 100 yards and check the difference in POI between both techniques.

I want to thaw out first.

Surf
01-03-14, 15:26
Surf

You opened my eyes. This is the best thing I've read in a long time. I am going to make some changes at work. The 60 yard shot drove it home for me. I have never shot at more than 50 yards with my pistol. Never further than 25 for qual. Thanks for sharing.Yes, most in LE will not even consider this distance of a shot as even being an option with a handgun in a real scenario. While not the most ideal situation to be facing a handgun shot at 50+ yards under stress, however if it needs to be done, it can be done well if one has trained for it. Also the benefits of training at distance has some very big advantages to a persons skills when shooting up close. If hitting a 10" circle plate is easy at 50-75 yards imagine how quickly and accurately that target can be addressed at 5-15 yards. Of course I have a progression of how I like to train a shooter to eventually work out to distance instead of just flopping someone out there and having them shoot away. If someone does not have a firm grasp and mastery of their basic fundamentals and cannot shoot pinpoint accuracy / precision up close, working at long distance may have a frustrating and negative effect.

I had a video at one time showing some of my training with concealed appendix carry with a G19. I started at 10 yards and worked back in 10 yard increments to 50 yards on a 10" steel. Times started at around 1.2x sec @ 10 yds and ended up with a 1.7 - 1.8 sec average at 50 yards. I was at 100% until I hit 50 yards where I dropped to about 80% hits. This would be my limit of acceptable speed / accuracy during practice. Will I ever need to draw from concealment and hit a target at 50 yards sub 2 seconds? 99.9% probably not, but that really isn't the point with the distance aspect of this training. The moral to this story? Drilling out to distance maintaining a speed and accuracy standard has progressed my skills and confidence where doing it at 10 yards right around 1.1 - 1.2 seconds from concealment with 90+% acceptable accuracy becomes simple. A similar concept can be used maintaining an up close distance where you instead shrink the target size, however you really are not addressing the mental aspect of shooting at distance and the shooters understanding of POA/POI of the particular weapon / ammo combo as distance increases and potential environmental or weather conditions come into play.

Again I can't stress enough that if a shooter cannot maintain an extremely tight group up close then distance shooting can be a very negative thing. Ensure that the shooter has the fundamentals down to where they can hold a tight clover one hole grouping of say 10 rounds or so from 5 yards that can be covered with a quarter. Many good shooters will cover that group with a nickle or even a dime. If they have the fundamentals down and can perform this on demand then you can start walking them back in 5 - 10 yard increments. If you go out to about 35 - 40 yards or you can show them that the 10" plate superimposed on their sights gives a sight picture that is about the same size as the quarter from 5 yards. 50 yards is a nickle, etc.... Of course there are ammo / environment factors as distance increases, which can be trained and learned via experience, but the mental aspect of target size and distance from target becomes of little concern with a good training progression. It is hard to get people to buy into it if you don't go through a correct progression of training with them working them out to distance and being successful.

This can also apply to things like shooting on the move. I often work out to 50 yards SOTM. Will I take a 50 yard pistol shot on the move? Again 99.9% probably not, but I can tell you that my speed of follow up shots and accuracy from around 25 yards and in greatly benefits from working distance.

Hope this makes sense.

usmcvet
01-03-14, 15:41
It does make sense. Again thanks for sharing. I know you got my wheels moving and I'm sure many others.

I found this balistics chart calculator, pretty interesting.

http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/

T2C
01-03-14, 17:26
It does make sense. Again thanks for sharing. I know you got my wheels moving and I'm sure many others.

I found this balistics chart calculator, pretty interesting.

http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/

Thanks for the link. It defaults to a 100 yard zero and the general height of the sight plane over the bore axis for a scoped rifle, so you want to use the advanced options to enter data for your pistol.

This sort of thing makes you really think and that's the benefit of shooting long range with a pistol.

I like some of the points Surf made. If you can shoot effectively at long distance, it makes you a much better shooter at shorter distances.

Voodoo_Man
01-03-14, 17:41
Good on you T2C for giving it a go.

Only reason I posted it was because it works for me. I shoot around 2 inch groups at 25 and 4 inch groups at 50 with the golf grip. The biggest issue is not canting your head to one side or another because it'll throw your rounds to one side. The Furthest I have tried it is at 100y and that was on steel, it went ding every time so I don't know if there are awesome groups or not. I will try it whenever I get the chance to.

Shooting in the cold blows, I know it is a bullshit excuse but training modifier or not, **** its cold.