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View Full Version : How many rounds until a malfunction is deemed "acceptable?"



C4IGrant
12-20-13, 08:37
I am curious what everyone thinks on this subject. Should you be able to fire 100, 200, 500, 1,000, 5,000 before you experience a malfunction??

Personally, I have seen the whole spectrum. Some will get a malfunction within 50rds and be ok with that gun for "defensive purposes" while others will shoot over 1,500 (without cleaning), get a malfunction and sell the gun off.


What say you??


C4

Caduceus
12-20-13, 08:46
Personally, I'm OK with a random malfunction - as in, every few hundred rounds. Depends a bit on the platform though. It's consistent malfunctions that worry me - ie, certain ammo type, every fifth round, certain magazine only. We practice remedial actions for a reason to deal with the random.

For a rifle, around 500 rounds I'll consider reliable. For a pistol, usually several hundred. This equates to roughly the same number of full magazines run through the gun.

For example, I swapped my .40 barrel in a Sig 229 to a 9mm barrel. Had numerous FTE's with one brand of ammo, but great results with 100 rounds of a different brand. I don't consider it ready to be a CCW as a 9mm, but as a .40, it's been great for the past 2000+ rounds - 2 failures to seat the slide forward after a magazine change (and likely due to carbon buildup during a class, approximately 700 rounds after cleaning).

Ryno12
12-20-13, 09:06
It depends on the type of malfunction. If I can pinpoint the cause of the malfunction & trace it back to operator error, ie. reloaded ammo, etc; then I'd pass it off. I have numerous rifles/pistols that I shoot equally as much, therefore they generally have a low round count, as compared to most others here. I have never experienced a mechanical malf that was a fault of the rifle/pistol itself. If I did, the type & frequency of the malf would dictate my concerns more so than the round count. Either way, I'd rectify it immediately.

Edited to say my initial response was based on ARs. I didn't notice the this was in the handgun sub via Tapatalk. My response is still somewhat applicable.


Sent via Tapatalk

C4IGrant
12-20-13, 09:24
It depends on the type of malfunction. If I can pinpoint the cause of the malfunction & trace it back to operator error, ie. reloaded ammo, etc; then I'd pass it off. I have numerous rifles/pistols that I shoot equally as much, therefore they generally have a low round count, as compared to most others here. I have never experienced a mechanical malf that was a fault of the rifle/pistol itself. If I did, the type & frequency of the malf would dictate my concerns more so than the round count. Either way, I'd rectify it immediately.

Edited to say my initial response was based on ARs. I didn't notice the this was in the handgun sub via Tapatalk. My response is still somewhat applicable.


Sent via Tapatalk


What is the number of rounds fired?


C4

JHC
12-20-13, 09:43
Personally, I'm OK with a random malfunction - as in, every few hundred rounds. Depends a bit on the platform though. It's consistent malfunctions that worry me - ie, certain ammo type, every fifth round, certain magazine only. We practice remedial actions for a reason to deal with the random.

For a rifle, around 500 rounds I'll consider reliable. For a pistol, usually several hundred. This equates to roughly the same number of full magazines run through the gun.

.

I think this is pretty solid and pretty much reflects my POV. I'd rather it be a thousand but I wouldn't give up over 500. OTOH my favorite defensive pistols over a three decades; 1911s, BHPs, Glocks, have all done much better than that.

_Stormin_
12-20-13, 10:01
I've run 4K through my favorite 1911, and will holster and carry it without hesitation. I can trace every malfunction I've experience with it directly to cleaning/lubrication, or operator error.

My others have (and will all see) at least 500 and a minimum of one day of competition before they're "trusted."

I did have a Glock 20 that simply loved to stovepipe rounds. Didn't matter the ammo brand, or the recoil spring assembly (swapped by Glock once, then for an aftermarket part), then the barrel swapped because of concerns that the chamber was the issue in not allowing proper extraction. It still would have the malfunction every 50 rounds or so. Pistol was traded off and the new owner given a heads up. He was only
Planning on having it as a range gun, so he had no issues.


Sent using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Redstate
12-20-13, 10:04
I am not okay with any malfunction that is caused by the firearm. All malfunctions in my firearms have been ammo related or user malfunction.
Examples:
1. I have a G36 with about 900 rounds through it and it has never malfunctioned for me (except once with a weak reload I was testing); however, my friend tends to cause malfunctions when he has tried it.

2. I have a G26 that has over 3,000 trouble free rounds through it and it has never malfunctioned, even with reloads. If it starts to malfunction, it will probably be a rsa or other easily replaced part that I will replace and confirm the issue is resolved before I depend on it.

3. I have a G17 that has over 7,000 rounds through it and the only time it has malfunction was due to ammo (reloads) issues. I have not replaced anything yet; except added a Ghost Rocket. I anticipate the recoil spring will need replacing soon.

4. As to my 1911's, only malfunctions have been reloads ammo related, especially with lead that I have trouble with reloading.

In conclusion, if my firearm has malfunctions that I cannot attribute to user error or ammunition, that firearm is going to get fixed, and if it then goes around 500 rounds without issue, then in my book it is good to go. Of course, I would qualify this by saying that it is very dependent upon the circumstances and type of malfunction.

Mauser KAR98K
12-20-13, 10:05
To be honest it is not the round count to malfunction ratio that concerns me, rather it is the frequency of a malfunction during a range trip. For instance, I could get one or two malfunctions out of a 300 round range trip, but those could be a bad loaded round (had some lightly charge blazer brass rounds that did not cycle, causing FTE), or human contributing factor (shooting in urban pron got me a stove pipe). Now, concerning my Browning Hi-Power (FM), or my late father's Colt Government Series 80, 1911, those were having failure to eject malfunctions, and failure to feed self defense ammo (in case of the 1911) every magazine, almost every few rounds. Those were not acceptable.

1,500 rounds with a malfunction is acceptable; if it repeats from there, not good. 100 rounds with a malfunction: acceptable unless it starts happen more frequently. My first M&P did not feed the first round when I bought it, but worked like a champ afterwards, and still is. That was round number 1, and a failure to feed.

Besides, I don't worry about malfunctions that much: I shoot HKs now.

Mauser KAR98K
12-20-13, 10:08
I am not okay with any malfunction that is caused by the firearm. All malfunctions in my firearms have been ammo related or user malfunction.

In conclusion, if my firearm has malfunctions that I cannot attribute to user error or ammunition, that firearm is going to get fixed, and if it then goes around 500 rounds without issue, then in my book it is good to go. Of course, I would qualify this by saying that it is very dependent upon the circumstances and type of malfunction.

Based on this and what Grant is asking, for me it would 1,000 rounds till I would comfortable...maybe 2,000 before I am comfortable; and that is malfunction free. The problem must be solved.

swamper
12-20-13, 10:10
Like Ryno12 has said, it depends on the malfunction. My range/training P30 has had close to 20k rounds through it between 2012 and 2013. I had a double feed malfunction that was traced back to the magazine. A FTF that was attributed to the round as there was definitely a good firing pin strike to the primer. I had a third malfunction that was caused by me not seating the magazine fully during a reload.

I have had one issue that did not impede the firearm from functioning though. I did have an instance of the trigger resetting, but it was not a discernible reset, i.e. there was no "click" felt or heard during reset. I sent the firearm off to HK but can't recall exactly the issue. I'll get home and look at the paperwork and update with what was found.

C4IGrant
12-20-13, 10:11
So it would appear that most of you are ok IF the malfunction is ammo or operator error caused, but not gun related correct???




C4

swamper
12-20-13, 10:13
So it would appear that most of you are ok IF the malfunction is ammo or operator error caused, but not gun related correct???




C4

That is correct.

C4IGrant
12-20-13, 10:21
So now that we have a pretty good baseline for what is deemed "acceptable" rounds fired, what does everyone think Gun Manufacturers believe this round count to be???

Popcorn at the ready! :dirol:



C4

Kain
12-20-13, 10:22
Depends to a degree. If the malfunction is ammo, or magazine related I am not overly concerned find what the gun likes and crack on. If it is operator related then I may be slightly more concerned, though I can fix that with training. Perhaps one of my personal issues with some people, and am going to use the Beretta 92 as an example here, is when they trash a gun because they screwed up, in the 92's case when they try to slingshot the slide and activate the safety, this is not a gun malfunction but operator error, but have spoken to many would consider this to be a major malfunction of the gun and use it as a reason to promote another platform such usually the Glock. But if the error can be trained around or if is just simply a screw up then it can be fixed and doesn't concern me much. That said, most of my platforms I trust as long as they are running several hundred rounds at least between mean malfunctions. I own an old 92SB that I bought, didn't even clean or oil after it had set in another man's drawer for about 15 years and it stovepiped in the fire 50 rounds. Fast forward to well over 1000 rounds later and having run only the original factory mags and cheap USGI surplus mags 15 round mags I trust it. So I suppose if I have to slap numbers on guns, for pistols I would say at least 500 rounds plus defensive ammo, and with a rifle I would say personally the same. Now I will add that those numbers are if I am running good mags and ammo, not running junk steel in my ARs or cheap mags in my pistols. And considering I am prone induce malfunctions for training purposes and usually end up with cheap ammo in trade that I use for training and range work I usually don't count those malfunctions, though I will usually run a mag for decent ammo through the gun to make sure it was ammo or mag related before leaving the range for my own piece of mind.

Kain
12-20-13, 10:24
So now that we have a pretty good baseline for what is deemed "acceptable" rounds fired, what does everyone think Gun Manufacturers believe this round count to be???

Popcorn at the ready! :dirol:



C4

My guess would be about 500...... more than you have already shot. :D

Redstate
12-20-13, 10:47
So now that we have a pretty good baseline for what is deemed "acceptable" rounds fired, what does everyone think Gun Manufacturers believe this round count to be???

Popcorn at the ready! :dirol:



C4

I have read that for the Glock, the Austrian Military trials required no more than 20 malfunctions in 10,000 rounds. See The Complete Glock Reference Guide by ptooma productions.

PD Sgt.
12-20-13, 10:56
For me personally, I want 500 trouble free rounds between practice and duty ammo before I feel comfortable carrying a pistol defensively. This does not take into consideration failures from the ammo, which I do not blame on the pistol. As noted above, If I see consistent, like malfunctions that are not easily remedied, no matter round count, this will take the pistol out of rotation as well.

As far as what manufacturers deem acceptable, I would guess 50, as that is the usual count in a box of practice ammo, and sadly, many gun owners don't run much more than that through a pistol at any one time, if ever.

Mauser KAR98K
12-20-13, 11:07
So now that we have a pretty good baseline for what is deemed "acceptable" rounds fired, what does everyone think Gun Manufacturers believe this round count to be???

Popcorn at the ready! :dirol:



C4

I see what you did there.

It is up to the manufacture. I.E. What HK deems acceptable to what Hi-Point deems acceptable.

shadow93
12-20-13, 11:16
I'm okay with random malfunctions. If I get a couple within a hundred rounds it could be that box of ammo or it could be the magazine. I'd rather check those small possibilities before I look at the gun as being the problem.

C4IGrant
12-20-13, 11:23
I see what you did there.

It is up to the manufacture. I.E. What HK deems acceptable to what Hi-Point deems acceptable.

It is interesting to see how each party views this number. From my experience talking with manufacturers, they typically laugh if a customer is upset about a malfunction in the first 500rds. This of course is NOT representative of ALL gun manufacturers (just to be clear).



C4

T2C
12-20-13, 11:24
I will not carry a pistol or rifle for defensive purposes until I fire 300 consecutive trouble free rounds. That is normally done in one range session.

If a worn weapon starts to have issues, I will replace parts or do whatever it takes to restore reliability, then fire another 300 trouble free rounds before putting it back in service.

My sorry butt is more valuable to me than the cost of ammunition and repair parts.

I just bought a Sig Sauer P239 that fires every time and feeds anything I shoot through it. The slide will not consistently lock open after the last shot in the magazine. A friend told me he had to fire 500 rounds though his P239 before the slide would consistently lock open. I am OK with that and will just have to shoot more rounds through my pistol before I carry it.

Mauser KAR98K
12-20-13, 11:33
It is interesting to see how each party views this number. From my experience talking with manufacturers, they typically laugh if a customer is upset about a malfunction in the first 500rds. This of course is NOT representative of ALL gun manufacturers (just to be clear).



C4

I can see with the first 500 rounds or so with one or two malfunctions. I can see why the manufactures would laugh. Customers need to understand that machines do need to be broken in. Like shoes! Turning them back in because your feet hurt in the first mile...

Dos Cylindros
12-20-13, 12:12
If my new out of the box gun will go 200 rounds with no malfunctions and quality duty ammunition I will carry it on or off duty. With most of the quality platforms I feel this is an acceptable standard. Obviously there have been certain quality manufactuers that have started having issues at or right after 1,000 rounds, but I don't own any guns from that maker so it's not a concern of mine. Obviously I would love to sit down at a range session and test out my new pistol with 1,000 rounds but it is just not in the cards right now. My duty gun has several thousand throgh it with no issues at all (M&P 40 full size), and I have total confidence in it. My off duty guns (HK P30 and M&P 9c) both have significantly less and I have the same level of confidence in them as well.

RichDC2
12-20-13, 13:34
Depends on the gun type for me.

Custom 1911 needs to have a at least 1,000 rds without cleaning then another 1,000 cleaning regularly with SD ammo

Glock should be within 2-500 trouble free rds out of the box without cleaning and another 2-500 cleaning regularly with SD ammo

With that being said I want manufactures to test for 20,000+, don't shortchange us.

We know they are mechanical tools and problems will arise. Look for the trends and fix them. Regular maintainence technically should be good enough for no issues in a perfect world.

ST911
12-20-13, 13:50
What's that expression? "I don't know how to define it, but I know it when I see it."

For a life-support gun, I want to see ~200rds of duty/carry ammo and 500+ rounds of practice ammo without malfunction. Most problematic combinations of gun and ammo will show up within that interval, as will some critical manufacturing defects. That's just a start though. A bobble at a lower quantity gets harsh scrutiny, but may not be disqualifying if it doesn't reoccur.

I've gone back and forth on specific critical quantities over the years, and found the above to work very well for me.

Straight Shooter
12-20-13, 13:55
I never really sat down and thought about an exact number before until this thread, but after thinking awhile,
my bare minimum for pistol or rifle would have to be about 400 rounds or so. I discount any ammo or user fault.
If after 400 rounds, with no cleaning, the gun runs, in my book its good to go. Whenever I take a gun to the range for the first time, I try to shoot at least that much thru it the first time, to consider it broken in ,and check reliability.

DreadPirateMoyer
12-20-13, 15:42
What's that expression? "I don't know how to define it, but I know it when I see it."

For a life-support gun, I want to see ~200rds of duty/carry ammo and 500+ rounds of practice ammo without malfunction. Most problematic combinations of gun and ammo will show up within that interval, as will some critical manufacturing defects. That's just a start though. A bobble at a lower quantity gets harsh scrutiny, but may not be disqualifying if it doesn't reoccur.

I've gone back and forth on specific critical quantities over the years, and found the above to work very well for me.

This is EXACTLY my routine as well as of late. 500 practice/range ammo, 200 duty. Once it clears those hurdles, I consider it clear.

C4IGrant
12-20-13, 16:12
Depends on the gun type for me.

Custom 1911 needs to have a at least 1,000 rds without cleaning then another 1,000 cleaning regularly with SD ammo

Glock should be within 2-500 trouble free rds out of the box without cleaning and another 2-500 cleaning regularly with SD ammo

With that being said I want manufactures to test for 20,000+, don't shortchange us.

We know they are mechanical tools and problems will arise. Look for the trends and fix them. Regular maintainence technically should be good enough for no issues in a perfect world.

1K out of a 1911 without cleaning??? Good luck with that!

Why would a Glock only be 200-500 and the 1911 (which is KNOWN to be far less reliable) get 1K???

When manufacturers start a new gun, they will usually shoot somewhere between 10k and 20k out of several guns to prove concept.


C4

C4IGrant
12-20-13, 16:16
I was talking to some instructor friends of mine and the subject of shooting large QTY's of rounds (1,000-2,000) WITHOUT cleaning. They thought it was pretty stupid and really proved nothing. If we look at Military use, a soldier might only carry 1-5 reloads on him (depending what the mission was). If we assume the mag capacity is 17rds, that is ONLY 85rds that could possible be fired!

If we think about a training class, most are in or around 300rds a day. So I am not sure what this 1K-2K without cleaning actually validates.



C4

ruchik
12-20-13, 16:33
I'll typically go through about 200-300 rounds per range session. The odd bobble here and there doesn't bother me too much, I have never known a mechanical object that didn't fart sooner or later. But if I get malfunctions EVERY time I go to the range, in other words every 200-300 rounds, then this is a problem. If my gun malfunctions multiple times within the first 200-300 rounds of its life, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt by taking it home, cleaning, and trying again on another day. Same problems, then I'm concerned.

walkin' trails
12-20-13, 16:39
It depends on the type of malfunction.

I agree. What causes the malfunction, was it operator error, was it a really dirty pistol, was. It lubed? They all play in. Eliminate them and you have problems with the mechanicals. I went around 6K thru an M&P 45 before the recoil spring got tired, but it never misfed until then. I have an M&P 9 that I'm currently carrying that has gone 1200 rds since new and has not hiccuped yet. Because the pistols I've had have been pretty reliable, I've never kept track. I had a Colt Commander stainless years ago that had close to 1000 round down the pipe, that regardless of how or what it was fed, would not run completely thru a mag without one or failures to feed. I wasn't very bright, but did recognize that was not acceptable and got rid of it.

Tzed250
12-20-13, 16:59
For a new gun a malf in the first 500rds may be overlooked. After that it better be ammo or operator related if it chokes again. The rounds before cleaning means not much to me though as I won't leave the house with a dirty weapon on my side. It is more important to me that it runs 100% when totally clean because if I have to use it that it how it will go down.

Terribleone1
12-20-13, 17:00
I would say a carry piece should be cleaned be for use...... as for an ar as long as its mil spec quality and lubed up should go 1500 rds easy with out issue.

TiroFijo
12-20-13, 17:13
I was talking to some instructor friends of mine and the subject of shooting large QTY's of rounds (1,000-2,000) WITHOUT cleaning. They thought it was pretty stupid and really proved nothing. If we look at Military use, a soldier might only carry 1-5 reloads on him (depending what the mission was). If we assume the mag capacity is 17rds, that is ONLY 85rds that could possible be fired!

If we think about a training class, most are in or around 300rds a day. So I am not sure what this 1K-2K without cleaning actually validates.

C4

I think that shooting at least 500 rounds without cleaning or oiling is a pretty good test for a "dirty, semi dry" gun. Beyond that I don't see the point. Modern oils/greases stick well for a long time, and environmental agents (fine sand, etc.) are different than simply firing powder residues.

Some designs (or executions of these designs) are always going to be more tolerant of dirt and lack of lubrication than others.

I don't worry too much for the first few hundred rounds. Then, I would like to see at least 1000 rounds with no malfunctions, assuming no shooter induced stoppages, good ammo, and clean and lubricate at least every 300 rounds. But this is an average number, hopefully the malfunction rate is going to be a lot lower, be random and not traceable to specific problems. IMO to really say "my gun goes about 1500 with no malfunctions" one would have to shoot a lot: perhaps a couple malfunctions in the break-in period, first 500-1000 rounds, then a couple of malfunctions that could be traced to a bad magazine, ammo, etc. (you could discount them if you are really sure about the cause, sometines not so easy) would spoil some otherwise spotless run, then perhaps 3 freak malfunctions in 4500+ rounds shot with no discernable/evident problems.

Dos Cylindros
12-20-13, 17:50
I was talking to some instructor friends of mine and the subject of shooting large QTY's of rounds (1,000-2,000) WITHOUT cleaning. They thought it was pretty stupid and really proved nothing. If we look at Military use, a soldier might only carry 1-5 reloads on him (depending what the mission was). If we assume the mag capacity is 17rds, that is ONLY 85rds that could possible be fired!

If we think about a training class, most are in or around 300rds a day. So I am not sure what this 1K-2K without cleaning actually validates.



C4

This is a great point Grant. I have often wondered the same thing. The only thing I think it could possibly measure is a long term survival or end of the world situation where the gun would be subject to dirt, debris and other gunk in addition to whatever rounds you might have to fire. Other than that I have never, and will never purposefully fire 2000 rounds through any of my weapons without cleaning. Perhaps I would if they were all in the same range session, but given time constraints and the cost of ammunition these days, I doubt that will happen any time soon.

FAB45
12-20-13, 17:58
I think ZERO is acceptable, lol. Great question. Not sure I have an answer for myself but I will say my recently manufactured Glock 19 has over 5,000 rounds through it with ZERO malfunctions. Also, my newest acquisition an M&P .45 has 2,000 rounds through it with ZERO malfunctions. Maybe it's luck of the draw but I am happy with the quality of both these firearms.

EDIT: I also clean after every range/class session. Have fired 1,000 rounds over two days with the Glock 19 in a class.

ST911
12-20-13, 18:06
I was talking to some instructor friends of mine and the subject of shooting large QTY's of rounds (1,000-2,000) WITHOUT cleaning. They thought it was pretty stupid and really proved nothing. If we look at Military use, a soldier might only carry 1-5 reloads on him (depending what the mission was). If we assume the mag capacity is 17rds, that is ONLY 85rds that could possible be fired!

If we think about a training class, most are in or around 300rds a day. So I am not sure what this 1K-2K without cleaning actually validates.

C4

I don't know that it validates anything other than a high functional threshold for prolonged use or continued neglect. As you note though, most folks do more regular PM.

joe138
12-20-13, 18:36
In reference to the firing so many rounds without lube, maintenance and so forth. At what point are we inducing a future malfunction through damage and, for a lack of a better term, neglect? I like to know how reliable my weapons are, and I will get rid of one in a heartbeat if it fails me, and I can't correct the problem. But when do we reach the point of diminishing returns with our reliability testing?

Salamander
12-20-13, 18:45
Here's some hard data:

HK P2000 - 1,754 rounds, 0 stoppages or malfunctions. Current carry gun.
HK P2000sk - 1,124 rounds, 0 stoppages or malfunctions. Current carry gun.
HK USPc - 500 rounds, 0 stoppages or malfunctions. Recent acquisition.
S&W M&P45 - 675 rounds, 5 stoppages. Pulled from carry rotation, problem traced to a bad extractor, no issues in 140 rounds since replacement, testing ongoing.
Sig P229R - approx. 1,000 rounds, 0 stoppages or malfunctions. This is an older (2009) short extractor gun.
Glock 19 Gen 2 - 250 rounds (recent acquisition) - 0 stoppages, 0 malfunctions.
Glock 26 Gen 3 - 2,200 rounds, 18 stoppages + numerous brass to face. Worse than it looks because these began at 900 rounds and progressively worsened, avg. 5 FTE per 100 rds last two times out. I sold this gun, it's the only one on the list above that I considered to be unacceptable even after repair attempts (none of the usual fixes helped at all)
Colt Series 70 - no round count on this gun, I've had it since 1976 and it's not taken out of the safe much anymore. No stoppages until three occurred in one range session of 100 rounds in 2011, problem traced to an aged/weak mag spring. Not fired since then.

As a general rule of thumb, I won't carry a gun that hasn't gone 500 rounds trouble-free. In practice, as you can see above they're usually either much better or much worse than that.

Crow Hunter
12-20-13, 19:42
I evaluate a new gun cleaned and oiled with 200 rds. If I don't have any malfunctions of any type, including accuracy as well as functional issues, I call it good to go. If a gun isn't shooting where I am expecting it to, I will do a root cause analysis on it as well.

If and when I have a malfunction on a gun, any gun. I do a root cause analysis by first attempting to recreate the issue. If I can't successfully recreate the issue, I ignore it unless it repeats. That is why I do malfunction clearance drills.

I don't get all twisted around the axle if I get a malfunction that I can figure out what caused it. I don't get bothered if I have a "one off" that I can't recreate. I do have a problem if it is a gun that has an unknown cause malfunction repeatedly. If I have a strange malfunction that happens more than once in 3 or 4 range trips (roughly 500 rounds), I will start to not trust the gun.

Thankfully, I only have had one such gun in my life. (An older Glock 19)

I work in a manufacturing plant doing root cause analysis/value engineering. I am testing stuff all the time. Sometimes weird stuff happens. That is why you do replications in your DOE's. ;)

mike240
12-20-13, 19:54
I have put many more than 1k through my 1911s without cleaning and without issue. Add a couple drops of oil every 500-1000, sure but nothing wrong with that.

Texaspoff
12-20-13, 20:15
This is an interesting topic for sure. My personal count is around 250 rounds without an untraceable malfunction. When I purchase a new weapon, I will take it down, inspect it, do not clean or lube it, put it back together and run 200 rounds through it. Then I run it through our standard 50 round qualification course for duty, break it down and clean it. If I do not experience any untraceable malfunctions, I deem it GTG. I use this bar for any weapon I plan to use for a duty weapon. My exception to this process is the 1911. While I haven't purchased a new one in some time, if I did, I would break it down first, inspect, clean and lube prior to the first 200 rounds.

250 rounds may not be much for some folks, but as an LE, I carry about 43 rounds on me and have only used all my rounds once. SO if they can run 250 without any issues that works for me. I typically run 200 to 300 rounds per range session and that is at least twice a month, sometimes three.

Scientific as it ain't, I have done this test to every duty weapon I have used since 1993, and I am 99.9999% confident in each one I carry, obviously there is always a chance for a failure. The only weapon that has ever failed the initial 200 round test was my LCP. The problem was an easy traceable fix. It is the hard chromed version, and when the chrome was applied to the barrel, they did not polish the feed ramp out. 30 seconds with my tools, and no more issues.
Honestly I have not had any other pistol fail, and that includes, A Browning HP, Beretta 92, and 96 Centurions, tons of Glocks, Springfield XD's, S&W M&P's, H&K's USP 45C, P30, Sig P220's, 229's, a 232, and PPQ's. YMMV


TXPO

RogerinTPA
12-20-13, 20:55
500-1000 rounds without malfunction for me. After that, as long as one can clear simple/normal malfunctions or can transition and get back to doing work in a expeditious time frame, I'm OK with.

Magic_Salad0892
12-20-13, 22:45
Must have MRBS greater than 3k.

R0CKETMAN
12-21-13, 05:42
I skimmed through all the post in this thread sans yours and skintops. I'm more interested in your thoughts on the subject Grant.





I was talking to some instructor friends of mine and the subject of shooting large QTY's of rounds (1,000-2,000) WITHOUT cleaning. They thought it was pretty stupid and really proved nothing. If we look at Military use, a soldier might only carry 1-5 reloads on him (depending what the mission was). If we assume the mag capacity is 17rds, that is ONLY 85rds that could possible be fired!

If we think about a training class, most are in or around 300rds a day. So I am not sure what this 1K-2K without cleaning actually validates.



C4


I don't know that it validates anything other than a high functional threshold for prolonged use or continued neglect. As you note though, most folks do more regular PM.

Cleaning cycles are a whole other topic....., but I'll go up to 1k without detail strip cleaning only on a new 1911 with it wetter than a cucumber in a women's prison.

T2C
12-21-13, 06:24
I was talking to some instructor friends of mine and the subject of shooting large QTY's of rounds (1,000-2,000) WITHOUT cleaning. They thought it was pretty stupid and really proved nothing. If we look at Military use, a soldier might only carry 1-5 reloads on him (depending what the mission was). If we assume the mag capacity is 17rds, that is ONLY 85rds that could possible be fired!

If we think about a training class, most are in or around 300rds a day. So I am not sure what this 1K-2K without cleaning actually validates.



C4

I believe that high round count without cleaning validates a pistol can function when used by someone who neglects to perform routine maintenance.

Pappabear
12-21-13, 09:45
I'm not so hard core about this. After the first 250 rounds, I want a clean 250 after that. But I've only had a few guns with feeding issues, and I dump them. I don't have a recipe for the dump.

I had an ED BROWN that would have a failure to feed after 50 rounds like clock work when the feed ramp got dirty. I was never concerned about carrying it, because I never carried 7 mags with me. But it still went bye bye

19852
12-21-13, 10:31
I don't know what a manufacturer would consider an acceptable failure rate. Obviously HK, Glock, etc. would be different than HiPoint for example. Also a gun intended from the get go as a competition piece might only be expected to function within a narrow band of ammunition. To me a service pistol should be able to function with a wide variety of ammunition power, bullet shape and COAL, all within industry spec of course. I would not be happy with any pistol that couldn't go 1000+ rounds without failure. Any pistol I keep must not be ammo fussy.

C4IGrant
12-21-13, 11:02
I skimmed through all the post in this thread sans yours and skintops. I'm more interested in your thoughts on the subject Grant.



Cleaning cycles are a whole other topic....., but I'll go up to 1k without detail strip cleaning only on a new 1911 with it wetter than a cucumber in a women's prison.

As a 1911 fan and someone that has logged thousand and thousands of rounds through a 1911 in training classes (and somewhat of a 1911 pistolsmith), I wouldn't let me 1911 go without cleaning for more than 500-600rds IF I could help it. Now does this mean take everything out of it? No. We are just going to treat it like you would a normal Glock or M&P (remove the slide and clean all surfaces that you can reach).



C4

C4IGrant
12-21-13, 11:05
I believe that high round count without cleaning validates a pistol can function when used by someone who neglects to perform routine maintenance.

So if the gun doesn't function properly (because someone was a moron), where does the blame fall? On the manufacturer or the owner?

Personally, I would refer to this as a "stupid user trick."


Now, if you said; "I wonder how long this gun will run with just lube and I won't think negatively about the gun if it doesn't function well with 2,000rds through it." Then I would say, drive on as what you are doing is just for curiosity sake.


C4

MistWolf
12-21-13, 11:17
I can't say I have a specific round count. When working with a new to me firearm, I'll field strip it and take a close look at it's workings to look for FOD, burrs or anything else unusual. It gets cleaned and lubed. The action will be cycled and I'll pay attention to how everything feels. I'll shoot it with good ammo and pay attention to how everything feels and functions. When a firearm is good, you can tell rather quickly it's going to be trouble free. Usually, you'll be able to tell right away if there's going to be a problem. You'll also be able to tell if a niggling little item is going to work itself out or needs attention.

Before buying a firearm, I'll work the action a few times. It gives me a chance to get a feel for how the parts fit and whether or not the fit is right or if something is gunking up the works. It doesn't take long to determine if a firearm is going to work for me out of the gate or if it's going to need attention. In all my years of shooting, I've rarely had a firearm that regularly malfunctioned and it's even rarer that I couldn't fix the problem when it did

hf0311
12-21-13, 11:28
If a cleaned and lubed gun cant make it through 500-600 rounds then i wouldn't carry it, i figure that's about 10 times the amount of ammo i carry on my person, and its not uncommon for me to shoot 400 rounds or so at the range and then drive home and make all my regular stops on the way home, so even as someone who maintains their firearms there are still plenty of times that i end up carrying a dirty gun, also i would say that every time i go to the range i am doing a reliability test of my gun and gear, its a continuous process inmo.

HKGuns
12-21-13, 13:47
For me there isn't any particular number of rounds for anything. For those that can state a number of rounds, on what do you base that number? At what point does your firing regimen induce a part failure? All firearms experience stoppages or malfunctions of some kind for numerous reasons.

I shoot mine until I am comfortable they work as designed and are reliable enough to trust. In most cases, I'll know if what I have is reliable or junk pretty quickly. To me it is more important to know how to shoot them accurately and how to operate them efficiently. But I live in a nice neighborhood and tend not to obsess about such things.

I own a fair amount of guns and I don't own one that I wouldn't hesitate to use for self defense....appropriate to the situation.

Trajan
12-21-13, 13:55
For me it's 1000 rounds. If a gun can get through it's first 1000 rounds without issue I figure it's good to go mechanically as is. My carry G19 only has ~1200 rounds (all trouble free) through it (guesstimate).

I think my G17 last went 3000 rounds before I cleaned it. I did however wipe off the barrel and rail grease and reapplied it twice within this 3000 rounds. As you know, it had a few FTEs and stovepipes, but only with one particular case of ammo, so I have written that off as an ammo issue.

I should probably replace the springs in it...

RichDC2
12-21-13, 14:04
1K out of a 1911 without cleaning??? Good luck with that!

Why would a Glock only be 200-500 and the 1911 (which is KNOWN to be far less reliable) get 1K???

When manufacturers start a new gun, they will usually shoot somewhere between 10k and 20k out of several guns to prove concept.


C4
Exactly, I've had better luck with Glocks and don't feel the need to go beyond that number. Most of whatever issue's showed up earlier.
As far as the 1911 for me the more I shoot them the more issue's present themselves. I like to get them all sorted out as they come and then add more rounds to check again, this drives the count up as I have had way more issues to sort out with 1911's.

Baer actually recommends not cleaning his guns for the first 500 rds.

I use these weapons in a very sandy ,windy environment. I like knowing how they will function in a more extreme state then I would normally keep them in if for some reason I didn't clean them for awhile. Mental? Yes! Wrong? Probably But I sleep better at night!

Clay
12-21-13, 14:16
Personally I don't understand the trend of taking a new gun out, right out of the box, and running it for xxxx amount of rounds before calling it gtg. To me, you are at the mercy of the gun company and whether or not they adequately lubed the thing. I've bought many guns that were dry as a bone right out of the box. I personally don't expect a gun to run bone dry, or filthy as hell for that matter. That's just my opinion of course.

When I buy a pistol, I disassemble it and check everything out, then lubricate it. After that I expect it to run at least 500 rounds with no failures. To me, that is acceptable. With that said, overall a properly cleaned and lubricated gun should run 100% with no failures unless they are ammo related. Of course sometimes this is hard to determine. I had that problem with a S&W Shield. I finally figured out today that it is the gun, not the ammo.

QuickStrike
12-21-13, 17:01
After I lube the rails, barrel hood, etc.. like crazy I will usually shoot about 1k rounds through a pistol in 3-5 sessions. Cleaning and adding more lube in between.

After that, aside from parts breakage, bad ammo or mag, i expect it to work all the time.

My last pistol that passed this was a gen4 glock 19. I read of some experiencing ejection problems after a few thousand rounds, so i got paranoid and added an apex extractor, and Hred extractor spring set-up to it before starting the test.

Maybe the recoil spring or ejector will get worn in a few k rounds and start ejecting weird, but I doubt it. With those aftermarket parts it ejects fine even without the mag inserted for a thousand rounds so I am satisfied.

Now to test the new shield...

HackerF15E
12-21-13, 17:17
So what's the punch line, Grant?

What is the "magic number" that the manufacturers are aiming for?

T2C
12-22-13, 09:05
So if the gun doesn't function properly (because someone was a moron), where does the blame fall? On the manufacturer or the owner?

Personally, I would refer to this as a "stupid user trick."


Now, if you said; "I wonder how long this gun will run with just lube and I won't think negatively about the gun if it doesn't function well with 2,000rds through it." Then I would say, drive on as what you are doing is just for curiosity sake.


C4

Sometimes non-firearm people are issued pistols. I have seen a few Glocks that were not cleaned and did not have a drop of oil on them that functioned for a few thousand rounds before they were brought to me for planned maintenance.

It's not the manufacturer's fault, it is the reality of the situation.

TElmer2
12-22-13, 10:43
I am one of those people that have done the 2,000 round challenge with my HK P30 just for curiosity sake. I think that running it like that, while unnecessary, can help mimic nasty conditions with the amount of residue, sand, and or mud while running it hot as I did my challenge not just with my own practice, but through several pistol classes in various conditions. It was interesting to see the reliability and durability of the platform.

That being said...my threshold is 1,000 rds with no malfunctions. I don't believe in cleaning after every range trip as I run my handgun wet like my ARs.

I also do not believe in "break-in" as a new quality gun should run fine if lubed properly, but I do notice a difference that a gun seems to wear in nicely after 1,000-1,500 rds that I do believe will aid in reliability. This is the reason that I prefer 1,000 with no malfunctions. It is just a very general threshold of noticing my gun wearing in that I believe will only aid the reliability factor. The Gen 4 Glocks having issues at the 1,000-1,500 rounds only help to reinforce my opinion.

This is just me though.

Voodoo_Man
12-22-13, 11:14
I run my carry guns 1,000 rounds malfunction free before I will carry them. That is 1000 rounds without a single hiccup (although bad ammo, like primer strike but no boom are acceptable).

After that if the gun has a malfunction that is not ammo or magazine related I will bench it until I get another 1000 rounds through it then I'll carry it again.

My EDC Gen4 G19 has had zero malfunctions (other than ammo) for the last 15k rounds. Hopefully it'll give me another 15k before I have to do anything serious to it.

EzGoingKev
12-22-13, 12:34
1. I have a G36 with about 900 rounds through it and it has never malfunctioned for me (except once with a weak reload I was testing); however, my friend tends to cause malfunctions when he has tried it.

What issues does your friend experience?

I have (3) Gen3 Glocks - 17, 19, 23 - all purchased used thanks to living in MA. I have not had to worry about break in. I strip them down, inspect all the parts, clean/lube as needed. I then take them to the range and put a few hundred rounds through to make sure they are good to go.

Once I establish the pistol functions without any issues I will replace all the springs, including the magazine springs, as they are not too expensive. Once that is done I just shoot them. The 17 and 19 get 2-3k rounds through them a year and they function like they should.

Redstate
12-22-13, 18:51
What issues does your friend experience?

...

Not able to recall; but, I think the cause was that he was holding the grip too low. He also had problems with the G27 I used to have.

EzGoingKev
12-22-13, 20:57
Not able to recall; but, I think the cause was that he was holding the grip too low. He also had problems with the G27 I used to have.
OK. I have a friend that has non-stop failure to feeds when he shoots my g23.

I shoot it and it is fine. Hand it to him and FTF after FTF. He hands it back to me and it shoots fine.

Kain
12-22-13, 20:59
OK. I have a friend that has non-stop failure to feeds when he shoots my g23.

I shoot it and it is fine. Hand it to him and FTF after FTF. He hands it back to me and it shoots fine.

Sounds likes he is limp wristing it. Is the only time I have seen something like that personally.

sjc3081
12-22-13, 21:10
I can't give you a round count but if a lubed and not filthy pistol malfunctions I am very suspect. If I'm forced to draw the line, 500 rounds on a clean lubed pistol would be my minimum.

weggy
12-22-13, 21:54
I must be very lucky, I can't remember the last time that any of my weapons, either pistol or rifle had a malfunction and I own several 1911s. That does not include the Taurus 145 Milpro that ran up more malfunctions than not. Needless to say, it went bye bye. I really don't consider Taurus a weapon.

SteveL
12-22-13, 23:07
OK. I have a friend that has non-stop failure to feeds when he shoots my g23.

I shoot it and it is fine. Hand it to him and FTF after FTF. He hands it back to me and it shoots fine.

When my wife shoots my M&P9 she gets malfunction after malfunction. I take the gun and it shoots without a problem. All I can figure is limp wristing. There are over 1000 rounds on this gun.

Likewise the only malfunction my PPQ 9 mm has ever had (besides user induced-resting my thumb on the slide release causing failures to lock open after the last round) was a failure to go fully into battery while my friend was shooting it. I inspected the round and it looked fine so I loaded it again and it shot fine. I haven't been able to replicate the malfunction. There are over 500 rounds on this gun.

I'm comfortable carrying either gun.

The Dumb Gun Collector
12-22-13, 23:54
If I shoot a gun 200 rounds and it doesn't give me any trouble I don't worry about it.

HES
12-23-13, 08:36
So am I seeing more votes for the neighborhood of 200? If so I can see the thinking about that. However consider this. Back in the day, say even the late 80s to mid 90s, if you got your car to go 100k miles it was considered to be a miracle. Now 200k is more the expectation of the owners and the goal of the manufactures. Look at other complex mechanical devices. Would we as consumers be satisfied with a lawn mower that lasted one season? So as consumers should we be okay with a mechanical device were it designed to have a short lifespan before experiencing an error that renders the device inoperable, even if temporarily? I'm excluding the already mentioned ammo and end user caused failures. I think that in this day and age, with the modern state of manufacturing techniques and equipment, and materials science, that it's inexcusable for a pistol to not be able to operate for at a bare minimum of several thousand rounds with out experiencing a mechanical failure. Yes a firearm experiences a fantastic amount of forces physics wise, but does the internal combustion engine and it does it with a lot more moving parts and for a greater duration.

ST911
12-23-13, 09:13
A few of you touched on something worth expanding on.

In addition to the quantity you shoot, I believe the manner in which they're shot is also important. Reliability checks of a fighting gun should include fast presentations, reloads, SHO, WHO, and irregular positions to identify any adverse and combined effects of subtle and significant changes in grip, manipulation of controls, resistance imparted to the gun's recoil, etc.

For a household gun, you might repeat these exercises with the least skilled member likely to access the gun as well.

Clay
12-23-13, 09:58
Excellent advice.

Sent from my SCH-S738C using Tapatalk

T2C
12-23-13, 11:40
A few of you touched on something worth expanding on.

In addition to the quantity you shoot, I believe the manner in which they're shot is also important. Reliability checks of a fighting gun should include fast presentations, reloads, SHO, WHO, and irregular positions to identify any adverse and combined effects of subtle and significant changes in grip, manipulation of controls, resistance imparted to the gun's recoil, etc.

For a household gun, you might repeat these exercises with the least skilled member likely to access the gun as well.

You bring up a very good point. I have fired pistols without any issues after the owners of the pistols told me they had multiple malfunctions. Fortunately, the wife is able to do the same.

nimdabew
12-23-13, 12:25
So it would appear that most of you are ok IF the malfunction is ammo or operator error caused, but not gun related correct???




C4

I had a Glock go back to Glock twice and had a frame replacement. I never carried or shot it after the frame replacement because that one Glock soured me to it forever. I am back to shooting CZs now.

KevinB
12-23-13, 14:06
The reason guns companies shoot guns to X rounds is multi fold.
1) endurance testing
2) lifespan
3) knowing most guns owners are morons and won't clean their gun - EVER

To me I want at least 500 of ball and 100 of duty ammo before I carry a handgun. IF its a BUG, I will sometimes drop to 200 ball and 50 of duty.

The Dumb Gun Collector
12-23-13, 17:02
So am I seeing more votes for the neighborhood of 200? If so I can see the thinking about that. However consider this. Back in the day, say even the late 80s to mid 90s, if you got your car to go 100k miles it was considered to be a miracle. Now 200k is more the expectation of the owners and the goal of the manufactures. Look at other complex mechanical devices. Would we as consumers be satisfied with a lawn mower that lasted one season?

I seem to have very good luck with firearms. Unless I am treating a gun like crap (no lube, no cleaning) I rarely see any problems unless I am shooting reloads. On the other hand, I tend to be pretty conservative in my gun selection, so I may be playing it safe.

Devildawg2531
12-23-13, 19:23
For me it's not about a certain # that the pistol must hit X # of rounds without a malfunction. It's about the % if failures. I normally will shoot a gun that might be used in SD around 500 rounds before carrying it. If a gun malfunctions 1% or more of the time it won't stay in my posseion for long. I have several gun's that have ALWAY's / 100% went bang when the trigger was pulled. I also had an early S&W Sigma .40 that had a stovepipe or FTE about 20% of the time.

Psalms144.1
12-23-13, 21:42
I don't have a hard & fast number anymore - though 200 rounds of failure free duty ammunition fired from a variety of positions seems to make me happy.

Not that I've never "torture tested" a pistol before - I have on more than one occasion run 1500-3000 rounds in a week through a single pistol without cleaning or lube - my G19s that have worked have always shrugged this abuse off.

Regards,

Kevin

superstratjunky
12-24-13, 19:57
I think 500 for break in & 200 more just to be sure. My M&P .40 settled in at 500 & just two failures occurred. One stove pipe & one FTFeed.

26 Inf
12-26-13, 06:32
I just bought a Sig Sauer P239 that fires every time and feeds anything I shoot through it. The slide will not consistently lock open after the last shot in the magazine. A friend told me he had to fire 500 rounds though his P239 before the slide would consistently lock open. I am OK with that and will just have to shoot more rounds through my pistol before I carry it.

I'd be a little more concerned about that. You should not have to fire 500 rounds through a Sig before it locks back reliably - it should lock back out of the box.

Assuming you bought it new, have you had it apart? The .40's should have 'blue' recoil spring, 9's should be 'silver' - is there a chance you have the wrong recoil spring?

How many mags is it not locking back on? You need to determine if it is one particular mag or all of them - mark or number your mags so you can see which one(s) are causing you problems.

Normally the first check I'll do if someone is having the problem you are describing is inspect the mags - seams, lips, clean, assembled properly, follower intact, etc.

Next clear the weapon and let the slide go forward on an empty chamber, insert the mag, use a loose overhand grip on the back of the slide and briskly run the slide to the rear, striping your hand away from the slide. Does it lock back? If it does it is probably something besides the mag.

If you want to test function, load one round in the mag(s), load the weapon. and hold the weapon with a loose grip - fire and see if the weapon locks back - it should.

Have someone else shoot it and see if they have the same problem.

Sigs have a high bore axis and I'm left-handed, so I don't much care for Sigs, but they work more reliably than that. After Glocks they are the most used duty pistol I work with during firearms training.

C4IGrant
12-26-13, 08:21
So what's the punch line, Grant?

What is the "magic number" that the manufacturers are aiming for?

There isn't one as far as I am concerned. You need to figure out what works for you and go with it.


With that said, some of the numbers that I am seeing (without a malfunction) or that they cannot clean their gun during the process is silly to me, but whatever floats your boat I guess.



C4

jpmuscle
12-26-13, 09:06
Wouldn't two separate questions, with only change in variable being cleaning frequency, be more appropriate? The first one being how many rounds until a uncleaned rifle malfunctions? While the second question being how many rounds until a regularly cleaned rifle malfunctions?

To me it would seem the latter question is of greater importance and significance since taken to the extremes on both sides a gun that is never cleaned will inevitably malfunction, whereas a gun that is regularly cleaned (fed perfect ammo, mags, etc,etc) will never malfunction (again in a perfect world of course). So, a better measure of reliability imo is the time period and number of rounds fired between cleanings. The greater these two variables the more reliable the weapon can be deemed. Since every weapon needs to be cleaned a gun that can average 1000 rounds between cleanings with a given rate of fire is more reliable than a gun that averages 500 rounds with the same rate of fire between cleanings, no?

Sent from my DROID X2

HackerF15E
12-26-13, 09:07
There isn't one as far as I am concerned. You need to figure out what works for you and go with it.

With that said, some of the numbers that I am seeing (without a malfunction) or that they cannot clean their gun during the process is silly to me, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

C4

Did you not intend the discussion to compare users' perceptions of acceptable mean-rounds-between-malfunctions to what the manufacturers use? That's kind of what you seemed to be implying with this post:


So now that we have a pretty good baseline for what is deemed "acceptable" rounds fired, what does everyone think Gun Manufacturers believe this round count to be???

Popcorn at the ready! :dirol:

C4

C4IGrant
12-26-13, 09:11
Did you not intend the discussion to compare users' perceptions of acceptable mean-rounds-between-malfunctions to what the manufacturers use? That's kind of what you seemed to be implying with this post:

Every manufacturer is going to have a different number. Some won't have a number at all! So my post was more out of curiosity and just to give me a small insight into the fact the manufacturers generally have a different view than the consumer.



C4

C4IGrant
12-26-13, 09:19
Wouldn't two separate questions, with only change in variable being cleaning frequency, be more appropriate? The first one being how many rounds until a uncleaned rifle malfunctions? While the second question being how many rounds until a regularly cleaned rifle malfunctions?

To me it would seem the latter question is of greater importance and significance since taken to the extremes on both sides a gun that is never cleaned will inevitably malfunction, whereas a gun that is regularly cleaned (fed perfect ammo, mags, etc,etc) will never malfunction (again in a perfect world of course). So, a better measure of reliability imo is the time period and number of rounds fired between cleanings. The greater these two variables the more reliable the weapon can be deemed. Since every weapon needs to be cleaned a gun that can average 1000 rounds between cleanings with a given rate of fire is more reliable than a gun that averages 500 rounds with the same rate of fire between cleanings, no?

Sent from my DROID X2

The number of rounds between cleanings is irrelevant (for the most part) as a dirty gun that is well lubricated will run, but a clean gun that is bone dry won't do as well.

Another problem with this idea is ammo used. If someone shoots a gun with Wolf and another person shoot the same gun with Federal HST, the person using the Wolf ammo is going to get a much different "rounds fired before malfunction" than the one using the CLEANER/Better ammo.



C4

T2C
12-26-13, 12:24
I'd be a little more concerned about that. You should not have to fire 500 rounds through a Sig before it locks back reliably - it should lock back out of the box.

Assuming you bought it new, have you had it apart? The .40's should have 'blue' recoil spring, 9's should be 'silver' - is there a chance you have the wrong recoil spring?

How many mags is it not locking back on? You need to determine if it is one particular mag or all of them - mark or number your mags so you can see which one(s) are causing you problems.

Normally the first check I'll do if someone is having the problem you are describing is inspect the mags - seams, lips, clean, assembled properly, follower intact, etc.

Next clear the weapon and let the slide go forward on an empty chamber, insert the mag, use a loose overhand grip on the back of the slide and briskly run the slide to the rear, striping your hand away from the slide. Does it lock back? If it does it is probably something besides the mag.

If you want to test function, load one round in the mag(s), load the weapon. and hold the weapon with a loose grip - fire and see if the weapon locks back - it should.

Have someone else shoot it and see if they have the same problem.

Sigs have a high bore axis and I'm left-handed, so I don't much care for Sigs, but they work more reliably than that. After Glocks they are the most used duty pistol I work with during firearms training.


It's a brand new pistol. It's a 9mm and it occurred with both factory magazines. The pistol fed, fired and ejected on every shot during the break in period.

It was a break in issue. After 400 rounds and two good cleanings the slide locks to the rear after the last shot. I would rather have a tight tolerance pistol that requires break in than something that is loose right out of the box.

The person I bought my P239 from had the same issue for the first 500 rounds or so. The issue is also listed on Sig Sauer's FAQ page on their website. It's a break in issue.

If I fire another 200 trouble free rounds during the next range session, it will be my concealed carry piece.

C4IGrant
12-26-13, 15:48
It's a brand new pistol. It's a 9mm and it occurred with both factory magazines. The pistol fed, fired and ejected on every shot during the break in period.

It was a break in issue. After 400 rounds and two good cleanings the slide locks to the rear after the last shot. I would rather have a tight tolerance pistol that requires break in than something that is loose right out of the box.

The person I bought my P239 from had the same issue for the first 500 rounds or so. The issue is also listed on Sig Sauer's FAQ page on their website. It's a break in issue.

If I fire another 200 trouble free rounds during the next range session, it will be my concealed carry piece.

I have seen this a lot of with German or "European" made pistols in 9mm. They are setup for NATO ammo (or our +P) and have heavily sprung guide rod assembles in them. After about 500rds they tend to "break in" and run reliable from there.



C4

jpmuscle
12-26-13, 18:16
The number of rounds between cleanings is irrelevant (for the most part) as a dirty gun that is well lubricated will run, but a clean gun that is bone dry won't do as well.

Another problem with this idea is ammo used. If someone shoots a gun with Wolf and another person shoot the same gun with Federal HST, the person using the Wolf ammo is going to get a much different "rounds fired before malfunction" than the one using the CLEANER/Better ammo.



C4

So would it be better to say then that instead of using the rounds between cleanings as the metric to measure reliability that instead we use the number of rounds between lubrication?

Also this warrants the utilization of a given milspec ammo that is of known quantity and quality. This isolates and normalizes the ammo variable.

So if you have two identical spec guns, gun A and gun B, and use the same ammo (irrespective of variations from lot to lot) and gun A averages 720 rounds between lubrication before a malfunction whereas gun B runs on average 610 rounds before a malfunction you could definitely say gun A is more reliable than gun B correct?

Random sampling of mags could control for mag induced malfunctions, same for ammo. But for the sake of argument lets assume for testing ammo and magazines are perfect and do not induce any malfunctions during testing. Your thoughts Grant?

Sent from my DROID X2

26 Inf
12-26-13, 18:37
It's a brand new pistol. It's a 9mm and it occurred with both factory magazines. The pistol fed, fired and ejected on every shot during the break in period.

It was a break in issue. After 400 rounds and two good cleanings the slide locks to the rear after the last shot. I would rather have a tight tolerance pistol that requires break in than something that is loose right out of the box.

The person I bought my P239 from had the same issue for the first 500 rounds or so. The issue is also listed on Sig Sauer's FAQ page on their website. It's a break in issue.

If I fire another 200 trouble free rounds during the next range session, it will be my concealed carry piece.

Glad it's working out for you.

Not that I didn't believe you, but...I looked. I'll be danged if that isn't on the FAQ page. I've been a Sig LE Armorer for over 20 years and had never been told they expect break-in issues. I'm doing a re-cert in 2014, so I'll have something to discuss with them.

Grant - Aren't the 239's made in the U.S.?

C4IGrant
12-26-13, 20:46
So would it be better to say then that instead of using the rounds between cleanings as the metric to measure reliability that instead we use the number of rounds between lubrication?

I guess so, but again what moron doesn't lubricate his weapon? Like before, if it doesn't function during the "test" then would the gun seem "less desirable" to them? Would they fault the manufacturer? Just not sure what it gets us.


C4

C4IGrant
12-26-13, 20:50
Grant - Aren't the 239's made in the U.S.?

No idea (as I am not into SIG's). Could they be built in the US, but setup for hotter ammo? Sure could.

Coming from the 1911 world (training, building, etc) I am of the opinion that all metal guns need to be broken in and owners should expect some malfunctions during this process.


C4

jpmuscle
12-27-13, 00:02
I guess so, but again what moron doesn't lubricate his weapon? Like before, if it doesn't function during the "test" then would the gun seem "less desirable" to them? Would they fault the manufacturer? Just not sure what it gets us.


C4

Plenty don't but that's neither here nor their really. As to what it gets us if we can't accurately quantify or measure reliability as a construct then improvements, advancements, refinements, etc can not be made as their is no concrete baseline from which to measure. It becomes all arbitrary and irrelevant. Simply saying that a gun runs is capricious I would think.

Sent from my DROID X2

R0CKETMAN
12-27-13, 06:33
I guess so, but again what moron doesn't lubricate his weapon? Like before, if it doesn't function during the "test" then would the gun seem "less desirable" to them? Would they fault the manufacturer? Just not sure what it gets us.


C4

Grant the world is full of idiots, see link below. I'll add that without question the older I get the less tolerance I have for the professional dumbass.

http://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/threads/585600-FS-Self-lubricating-Austrian-looking-for-love?highlight=Lube

C4IGrant
12-27-13, 08:59
Plenty don't but that's neither here nor their really. As to what it gets us if we can't accurately quantify or measure reliability as a construct then improvements, advancements, refinements, etc can not be made as their is no concrete baseline from which to measure. It becomes all arbitrary and irrelevant. Simply saying that a gun runs is capricious I would think.

Sent from my DROID X2

Reliability is in the eye of the beholder. I know this is a shock to us folks that shoot a lot, but there are people out there that buy a new gun, load it up and will depend on it to save their lives (all without having fired a round). There are even more people that will shoot just 1-2 mags through and call it good. There are even greater numbers that only shoot on 50rd box (of FMJ, NOT their carry ammo) and call it good.


For me, the gun has to be cleaned, inspected and properly lubricated before I start any "trials." If it is a gun with an overly sprung recoil spring, I will leave the slide locked to the rear for 1-2 weeks before I even bother shooting it. This simply insures that if I get a malfunction, I can then narrow it down.

Typically speaking, I will run around 200rds of GOOD quality ball while running various drills. If all looks good, I will run about 50rds of my carry ammo through it and verify POA/POI at 25yds along with shooting weak hand, strong hand, etc.

Once the above is done, it is pretty common for me to not carry the new gun (as I have so many), but will try and run it in a training class or two (as this is one of the best tests for a guns reliability).

So that's it! Nothing earth shattering or extravagant. Some may think the above is the MINIMUM they would do and others think I am over the top. To each their own, but come up with a realistic plan and execute it.


C4

KevinB
12-27-13, 09:06
For me, the gun has to be cleaned, inspected and properly lubricated before I start any "trials."

I stip all of my guns down - thoroughly degrease and then lube with FIREClean.



If it is a gun with an overly sprung recoil spring, I will leave the slide locked to the rear for 1-2 weeks before I even bother shooting it. This simply insures that if I get a malfunction, I can then narrow it down.

Grant - just as an FYI - compression does not generally do much for a modern spring - its the constant compression and expansion cycle -- you could probably get more from 50-100 slide cycles than just leaving it compressed.





Once the above is done, it is pretty common for me to not carry the new gun (as I have so many), but will try and run it in a training class or two (as this is one of the best tests for a guns reliability).


Probably the best policy for anyone who buys a new gun that they have the intent to use for duty/carry.

C4IGrant
12-27-13, 09:08
Grant - just as an FYI - compression does not generally do much for a modern spring - its the constant compression and expansion cycle -- you could probably get more from 50-100 slide cycles than just leaving it compressed.

You are probably right. I do get a noticeable difference though when I leave them sit for a couple weeks. I bet cycling them would reduce this time.



C4

Guinnessman
12-27-13, 09:12
Reliability is in the eye of the beholder. I know this is a shock to us folks that shoot a lot, but there are people out there that buy a new gun, load it up and will depend on it to save their lives (all without having fired a round). There are even more people that will shoot just 1-2 mags through and call it good. There are even greater numbers that only shoot on 50rd box (of FMJ, NOT their carry ammo) and call it good.


For me, the gun has to be cleaned, inspected and properly lubricated before I start any "trials." If it is a gun with an overly sprung recoil spring, I will leave the slide locked to the rear for 1-2 weeks before I even bother shooting it. This simply insures that if I get a malfunction, I can then narrow it down.

Typically speaking, I will run around 200rds of GOOD quality ball while running various drills. If all looks good, I will run about 50rds of my carry ammo through it and verify POA/POI at 25yds along with shooting weak hand, strong hand, etc.

Once the above is done, it is pretty common for me to not carry the new gun (as I have so many), but will try and run it in a training class or two (as this is one of the best tests for a guns reliability).

So that's it! Nothing earth shattering or extravagant. Some may think the above is the MINIMUM they would do and others think I am over the top. To each their own, but come up with a realistic plan and execute it.


C4

Grant,

What pistols will you lock the slide to the rear for a week or two? Are we talking Gen 4 Glocks and the HK P30? What's your take?

C4IGrant
12-27-13, 09:13
Grant,

What pistols will you lock the slide to the rear for a week or two? Are we talking Gen 4 Glocks and the HK P30? What's your take?

G4 Glock's (when they first came out, but don't know that it is needed any more), HK P30, Shields, etc.



C4

Doc. Holiday
12-27-13, 09:25
I need to see at least 1,000 rds (500 of those shot in a day) without having a malfunction for me to consider it reliable. It also depends on the malfunction as well. Are these malfunctions an operator error? Ammo error? Or it is truly the gun? I have had a hiccup or two during range times and drills, but they are fairly obvious when they are ammo related or operator related and are easy to call these out. It's the idiots out there who don't have the balls to admit that they limb wristed their gun or too cheap to buy quality ammo and just blame the gun. Most malfunctions in my opinion are operator/ammo errors.

ST911
12-27-13, 10:24
At a minimum, I field strip, clean off the preservative, and apply a quality lube. I'm picking up a batch of G17s that I will do nothing more than lubricate and pass out to the shooters transitioning to them. I may detail strip, clean, and reassemble others depending on what I want to know or see.


You are probably right. I do get a noticeable difference though when I leave them sit for a couple weeks. I bet cycling them would reduce this time. C4

Highly responsible older kiddos are very handy for that.

ralph
12-27-13, 11:17
I have seen this a lot of with German or "European" made pistols in 9mm. They are setup for NATO ammo (or our +P) and have heavily sprung guide rod assembles in them. After about 500rds they tend to "break in" and run reliable from there.



C4

This has been my experience as well.. When I bought my P-30, I took it out to the range, (after giving it a good cleaning first) and starting shooting it with some loads (I reload all my practice ammo) that worked well with the other 9mm pistols I have/had. I was using a 115gr. plated bullet (I know, not the best weight, but at the time, last spring with the ammo shortage, these were all I could find, so, I bought 2K of them) and got some FTF's, Clearly the load I was using didn't have enough energy to cycle the slide. I shot a box of Fed. 125gr HST's through it and, no problems. .Luckily for me, I didn't have a lot of the 115gr loads loaded up, so when I got home, and started loading, I bumped the charge up, and haven't had a problem since. I've since stocked up on some 124gr plated, and using a load that is max, (when using plated bullets you should use hard cast lead data, and this load was max for hard cast lead) and the results were, the pistol definitely liked them, strong ejection and improved accuracy(provided I do MY part) no signs of overpressure, And of course, No problems..

Guinnessman
12-27-13, 20:01
G4 Glock's (when they first came out, but don't know that it is needed any more), HK P30, Shields, etc.



C4

Last week I ran the first 350 rounds thru my P30. The session consisted of 100 rounds Winchester 124 grain NATO, 200 rounds of WWB, and 50 rounds of Speer Gold Dot 147 grain. The only weak ejections came from the first few rounds of WWB. No malfunctions so far. Otherwise, it ran like a raped ape. ;)

Javelin
12-27-13, 22:37
I don't like to see any. I mean literally zero from the firearm. It's a mechanical apparatus and shouldn't do anything different for the next iteration as it did the prior. The word I'm looking for is precision and I expect it out of my firearms. If it is ammo related (what I consider the variable) then fine but I don't keep guns that jam. :)

l8apex
12-28-13, 00:54
Out of curiosity I've ran a G17 RTF for 2000 rds + with no failures.

With that said, I personally require 500 rds trouble free 147gr SXT [carry ammo]. I will add oil if needed during the 500 rds.

Carry guns inspected & cleaned every range trip thereafter.





It's the Indian, not the Arrow.

C4IGrant
12-28-13, 07:55
I don't like to see any. I mean literally zero from the firearm. It's a mechanical apparatus and shouldn't do anything different for the next iteration as it did the prior. The word I'm looking for is precision and I expect it out of my firearms. If it is ammo related (what I consider the variable) then fine but I don't keep guns that jam. :)

Don't ever own a 1911. ;)




C4

manbearpig
01-10-14, 22:21
I just picked up a new pistol and there were no problems until about round 75, where I had two failures to go into battery a couple rounds apart (don't know the cause). After that, I shot 300+ more trouble-free rounds. The same ammo was used for every shot fired. I think I should call it good but anyone disagree?

ST911
01-10-14, 22:57
I just picked up a new pistol and there were no problems until about round 75, where I had two failures to go into battery a couple rounds apart (don't know the cause). After that, I shot 300+ more trouble-free rounds. The same ammo was used for every shot fired. I think I should call it good but anyone disagree?

What gun and ammunition, specifically?

Leaveammoforme
01-10-14, 23:05
I just picked up a new pistol and there were no problems until about round 75, where I had two failures to go into battery a couple rounds apart (don't know the cause). After that, I shot 300+ more trouble-free rounds. The same ammo was used for every shot fired. I think I should call it good but anyone disagree?

I would think you're GTG. I do not count any static shooting round count as a firearm 'qualifier'. Dynamic is the only way to know if you're set up is good. I welcome the occasional FTF/FTE . It builds muscle memory. Now repeatable or 'every 75 rds it does this....' are unacceptable to me regardless of round count.

manbearpig
01-10-14, 23:10
What gun and ammunition, specifically?

USP45 compact and Fiocchi 45 JHP.

manbearpig
01-10-14, 23:10
I would think you're GTG. I do not count any static shooting round count as a firearm 'qualifier'. Dynamic is the only way to know if you're set up is good. I welcome the occasional FTF/FTE . It builds muscle memory. Now repeatable or 'every 75 rds it does this....' are unacceptable to me regardless of round count.

Thanks for your advice.

Marshall Dillon
01-11-14, 00:50
Now, if you said; "I wonder how long this gun will run with just lube and I won't think negatively about the gun if it doesn't function well with 2,000rds through it." Then I would say, drive on as what you are doing is just for curiosity sake.

This is EXACTLY what I did with an FNS-9 that I bought in 2013. I took it straight to the range and didn't lube it once during the 2 month experiment.

Over the last 20 years I've carried various Glocks (19's and 17's) and, in more recent years, the HK P30. I did the test just to see what would happen since it was a new, unproven polymer gun to me.

It cranked through 2,250 rounds of Magtech 115 grain, Federal 115 grain, Winchester White Box 115 grain and various hollowpoints FLAWLESSLY before I gave up and had to clean/lube it. I typically clean/lube after every range session and just couldn't take it anymore...the gun outlasted me.

I ended up liking the gun so much during the little experiment that it's now my carry gun.

I also bought an identical twin and mounted a TLR-1 on it for bedside duty, as I prefer an identical platform with a light for bumps in the night but don't like to tote a light daily. Yes, I have several sets of duplicate weapons as a result of this practice. However, I have 4 children so I justify it to my wife that way...each of the kids needs one of each gun when the old boy is gone.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e188/dgormont4/dgormont4005/FNSTwins_zps5405256e.jpg

ST911
01-11-14, 19:41
This continues to be a good thread. In addition to what's already discussed...

For those that have a quantity of rounds you like to fire, would you consider a lower number for guns of a specific brand/model/caliber that may be a known commodity to you? Raise it for newcomers or those with which you're less familiar?

Clay
01-11-14, 21:36
I used to be okay with running a box or two of FMJ through a Glock and calling it good, but not so much anymore since I got a dud back in 2012.

Marshall Dillon
01-11-14, 22:34
For those that have a quantity of rounds you like to fire, would you consider a lower number for guns of a specific brand/model/caliber that may be a known commodity to you? Raise it for newcomers or those with which you're less familiar?

That's a good question. While I wouldn't deviate from my normal round count per se, I have to admit that I tend to lean towards putting more rounds through guns that I'm not familiar with before I feel confident carrying them or putting them into a home defense role.

williejc
01-13-14, 18:30
Before I fire a new pistol, I clean it thoroughly and then check for sufficient extractor tension using a live round. With a glass I inspect the extractor for burrs. Next I polish the breech face using flitz polish and then polish the feed ramp using flitz. I inspect the chamber for roughness. Using Flitz I polish the entire barrel exterior with a soft cloth. Too, I disassemble, inspect, and clean the magazines. The last step is lubing. Then I start shooting. I expect no malfunctions that that can't be traced to extractor, ejector, magazine, or ammo. If my expert pistol smith can't readily identify and fix the problem, then I will return it to the factory and ditch it when I get the pistol back.

Once I went broke trying to break in two moony K's and no longer want to be told "to break it in".

ST911
01-13-14, 20:00
Before I fire a new pistol, I clean it thoroughly and then check for sufficient extractor tension using a live round. With a glass I inspect the extractor for burrs. Next I polish the breech face using flitz polish and then polish the feed ramp using flitz. I inspect the chamber for roughness. Using Flitz I polish the entire barrel exterior with a soft cloth. Too, I disassemble, inspect, and clean the magazines. The last step is lubing. Then I start shooting. I expect no malfunctions that that can't be traced to extractor, ejector, magazine, or ammo. If my expert pistol smith can't readily identify and fix the problem, then I will return it to the factory and ditch it when I get the pistol back.

Once I went broke trying to break in two moony K's and no longer want to be told "to break it in".

In the event that you have to return a gun to the manufacturer, do you disclose that the gun was modified? What are your expectations of the manufacturer?

williejc
01-13-14, 20:48
Of course. Not disclosing would be unethical. I'd expect the manufacturer to affirm that the pistol has been repaired and hopefully explain. My bias is that I don't want it if it has to go back, and I admit that biases don't reflect reason. I no longer buy, sell, or trade outside dealer networks. The pistol would be returned to the dealer, and I would take a hickey. These hickeys are one reason that I avoid Kel-Tecs and most Rugers. I've not returned a handgun to a factory on my dime in 15 years. Either the dealer or the factory paid both ways. In my many dealings, I've only bought two firearms on line--which means to me that the dealer bears no responsibility.

usmcvet
01-13-14, 21:18
Before I fire a new pistol, I clean it thoroughly and then check for sufficient extractor tension using a live round. With a glass I inspect the extractor for burrs. Next I polish the breech face using flitz polish and then polish the feed ramp using flitz. I inspect the chamber for roughness. Using Flitz I polish the entire barrel exterior with a soft cloth. Too, I disassemble, inspect, and clean the magazines. The last step is lubing. Then I start shooting. I expect no malfunctions that that can't be traced to extractor, ejector, magazine, or ammo. If my expert pistol smith can't readily identify and fix the problem, then I will return it to the factory and ditch it when I get the pistol back.

Once I went broke trying to break in two moony K's and no longer want to be told "to break it in".

Dang! I usually just shoot my new guns!

I hear you on the Kahrs! I grew up in the Gloucester, MA area and the Moonie a compound scared the shit out of me as a kid. That was my parents goal.

I had a MK9 and an MK40. They were both pieces of crap! Well after 300 rounds through both they still would not run! They would jam up so badly I'd have to use my de-jammer too free them up. Break in my ass! I had the same problem with a SeeCamp .32 that wouldn't run either even with the required Silver Tips. I'm not sure the round counts on these three guns, it was too long ago. I just knew I didn't trust any of these guns. The Kahrs were traded in at a loss. The SeeCamp was sold to a guynwh "hard to have it" just like me. I warned him but he bought it anyway. I'm so glad I have my 9mm Shield now'

Swag
01-13-14, 23:39
I wouldn't trust a firearm if it exhibited a pattern or tendency to malfunction as a result of poor design, utilization of inferior materials, sloppy tolerances and fitment, or a particular dislike of selected ammo. A malf can easily be user induced so an oddball or singular malf, whether it be the first shot fired or the first in thousands fired won't necessarily cause me to completely distrust a particular sample.

ztunelover
01-13-14, 23:53
2000MRBS seems to be the nato standard. I have taken my P30L 1200 without cleaning even though I am itching to clean it, I won't for the next 600. For me, the MK23 test set the benchmark. Average MRBS under hard use was 6000. So that is where I set the bar for my P30L.

n4p226r
01-14-14, 17:12
I don't have a number but am glad my sigs are going hiccup free for over what most are saying is the minimum. I've only had 1 malfunction. My p226 9mm. I pulled the trigger. Heard a fizzle. Then nothing. Ejected the case and saw that the primer was gone and the powder dumped in the inside of my gun somehow. I'm not thinking that's a gun malfunction though

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/wsaraceni/F77A607A-09EB-43DE-BBE5-4DFFBEE32281-3758-000002E4CAF9D466_zpsfd6866a3.jpg

High Altitude
01-15-14, 01:40
If I can get through the first 500 rounds of various types of ammo with no failures, I consider the pistol good to go.

I have only owned one pistol that had major issues and it showed up right away and was persistent.

On my carry gen4 19 I ran it through 2,000 rounds of various ammo, but I was a little paranoid given all the talk etc.... Not one failure.

One thing I like to do though is go through a pretty extensive break in before taking the gun to the range the first time.

Complete clean and oil, dryfire some, work the slide a bunch, load and unload mags about 20 times etc...... Waste of time, maybe, but I believe it helps.

travellightfreezeatnight
01-17-14, 08:26
Guns of any flavor are mechanical and will fail or have a malfunciton at some point (Murphy's rules apply here) The only qualification I have is the firearm will feed and fire one full magizine of my carry ammo.

I think this is a software over hardware issue, ie training. You can fire any number of rounds, and your very next round could be a malf. So say you fire 500 and call it GTG, round 501 could be a malfunction when my butts on the line in a defensive senario. You can use any number you want , there are no guarantees your next round will fire.

Therefore, I train for this and will not carry a firearm for self defense until I can run and manipulate the controls confidently. Most of my testing is not at the range expending tons of ammo that I can't afford or find to replace, defensive ammo is expsensive and scarce. But rather at home working on malfunctions, presentation, grip, dry fire etc. until I know I can problem solve anything that develops. Range sessions are with practice ammo and I think prove nothing as far as reliability goes. Choose a quality firearm with a proven track record and train.

Only have two firarms I feel confident to carry, a G21 and a J frame.
Neither have ever had a malfunction, but I don't believe for one minute that they won't.
YMMV, IMHO etc.

Semper Fi

C4IGrant
03-13-14, 11:06
A discussion on cost of guns VS malfunctions came up when a member stated that any gun that has A malfunction should be sold or sent back to the factory.

The question I asked was, what is reasonable to expect out of a gun that only cost the manufacturer $100-$150 dollars to produce?? None? 1 out of 100? 1 out of 1,000? 1, out of 5,000? 1 out of 10,000?

With mass produced ammo being of lessor and lessor quality these days, I think it is very unrealistic to not expect malfunctions in your pistol (whether ammo or gun induced).

So what say you? What is reasonable?



C4

C4IGrant
03-13-14, 12:12
A discussion on cost of guns VS malfunctions came up when a member stated that any gun that has A malfunction should be sold or sent back to the factory.

The question I asked was, what is reasonable to expect out of a gun that only cost the manufacturer $100-$150 dollars to produce?? None? 1 out of 100? 1 out of 1,000? 1, out of 5,000? 1 out of 10,000?

With mass produced ammo being of lessor and lessor quality these days, I think it is very unrealistic to not expect malfunctions in your pistol (whether ammo or gun induced).

So what say you? What is reasonable?



C4


I am going to quote myself for a second. I asked some professional instructor friends on what they thought was "acceptable" malfunction numbers (that WEREN'T ammo related) were. They both said 1 malfunction in 1,000rds was good to very good.



C4

Bigun
03-13-14, 20:46
For me personally, I want 500 trouble free rounds between practice and duty ammo before I feel comfortable carrying a pistol defensively. This does not take into consideration failures from the ammo, which I do not blame on the pistol. As noted above, If I see consistent, like malfunctions that are not easily remedied, no matter round count, this will take the pistol out of rotation as well.

As far as what manufacturers deem acceptable, I would guess 50, as that is the usual count in a box of practice ammo, and sadly, many gun owners don't run much more than that through a pistol at any one time, if ever. I feel the same. With cast bullets "Practice only" I usually can expect 250-300 without any problems.

weggy
03-13-14, 21:19
I can put up with one every now and then, nothings perfect, but they better damn well be few and far between.

Pappabear
03-14-14, 00:27
I can put up with one every now and then, nothings perfect, but they better damn well be few and far between.

Me too, it really only becomes a problem when the exact same malfunction occurs with different ammo. You know its gun related and needs to be fixed or used for range / practice. I like 1 in 1,000. Thats reasonable.

TXinfidel
03-14-14, 01:03
My previous 17 had near 85k and my previous 34 near 60K with at least 800,000 dry fire. Years of hard competition shooting with dirty reloads and I cannot remember a single malfunction of any kind with the 34. The only time the 17 ever had an issue was for the week I was running it that I forgot to reinstall the spring loaded bearing. :alcoholic: FYI the gun still functions, however extraction is not optimal. Being primarily a Glock shooter, along with some H&Ks I tend to refrence this as a standard. Do I need a carry peice that will go 6.02x10^23 rounds without a malfuction or is this just one more thing in the shooting world that is being over analized instead of learning how to shoot more gooder?

bsmith_shoot
03-14-14, 09:09
You know, maybe I'm flirting with disaster, but my normal practice with a new handgun us to take it home, clean it really good, lube it liberally, then shoot a box of cheap practice ammo followed by a box of carry ammo. That's it.I clean and lube then carry. The shield I'm carrying right now only has about 150 rounds through it.

Crow Hunter
03-14-14, 10:22
A discussion on cost of guns VS malfunctions came up when a member stated that any gun that has A malfunction should be sold or sent back to the factory.

The question I asked was, what is reasonable to expect out of a gun that only cost the manufacturer $100-$150 dollars to produce?? None? 1 out of 100? 1 out of 1,000? 1, out of 5,000? 1 out of 10,000?

With mass produced ammo being of lessor and lessor quality these days, I think it is very unrealistic to not expect malfunctions in your pistol (whether ammo or gun induced).

So what say you? What is reasonable?



C4

Depends on the malfunction.

If it is ammo/shooter induced/random foofoo dust/etc, and it occurs less than once every couple hundred rounds, I justs perform remedial action and go on with life. (That is why I train with dummy rounds/remedial action:o)

If it is an obvious design defect, part breaking when it shouldn't have or a repeated fight stopping malfunction (ie ties up the gun, like a Phase 3) I will usually do something more drastic. Like a buddy of mine who had a SIG 226 Elite that shot 8.5" low and 4" left out of the box at 10 yards. I believe they swapped the barrel.

Just a single hiccup, especially new or with WWB (or other hinky ammo), I don't worry about.

Magic_Salad0892
03-14-14, 14:38
I'm sticking with my earlier answer, but I wanted to say that I'm a bit more concerned with how easy that malfunction would be to clear, and how easy it would be to get the gun running again.

C4IGrant
03-14-14, 16:06
I'm sticking with my earlier answer, but I wanted to say that I'm a bit more concerned with how easy that malfunction would be to clear, and how easy it would be to get the gun running again.

We have to separate Malfunctions from Stoppages. Then look at the problem and figure out if it was ammo related or not.

If the ammo checks out, then we need to look at the gun and see if something is out of spec or just needs PM's. Of course proper cleaning lube go a long way.



C4

pat701
03-16-14, 15:10
IMHO, once broken in 500 to 1,000 rounds between a malfunction is acceptable.

ShipWreck
03-16-14, 21:22
If it is a defensive gun and I have a malfunction - I wanna go 1000 rounds trouble free before I have my faith restored. I usually make several trips in about a months time to knock it out as fast as I can. It would especially bother me if it happens after the gun has passed an acceptable "break in" period.

I had this happen on a couple of my Berettas before - about once every 300-400 rounds. It was maddening. Then, I saw others on the Beretta Forum commenting about the red box Federal at Walmart giving them the same issues. Stopped the red box Federal - nary a problem again!

ST911
03-16-14, 21:53
You know, maybe I'm flirting with disaster, but my normal practice with a new handgun us to take it home, clean it really good, lube it liberally, then shoot a box of cheap practice ammo followed by a box of carry ammo. That's it.I clean and lube then carry. The shield I'm carrying right now only has about 150 rounds through it.

Normal. You're even a bit ahead of the game, as many won't even bother to shoot a box of carry ammo, just the practice load. So common is the practice that Federal has a 120rd combo pack with 100rds of AE and 20rds of Hydra-Shok in the corresponding weight. Winchester hasn't combo packed their "Train and Defend" line, but they probably will. Others have made similar efforts. Fortunately, these loads are more alike than different and aren't likely to leave anyone hanging. The folks that buy a light training load and then full power carry loads are more at risk. A box of Tula 115 and Winchester PDX 124 +P at your local Walmart will behave a little differently.

Also weighing in... Does the make and model have a demonstrated reliability with a variety of loads over time, or is it something new and unvetted? Those things matter.

Not everyone can access or afford a hearty quantity of carry ammo to verify. Do get as much as you can though, and check it periodically.

bsmith_shoot
03-17-14, 11:57
Normal. You're even a bit ahead of the game, as many won't even bother to shoot a box of carry ammo, just the practice load. So common is the practice that Federal has a 120rd combo pack with 100rds of AE and 20rds of Hydra-Shok in the corresponding weight. Winchester hasn't combo packed their "Train and Defend" line, but they probably will. Others have made similar efforts. Fortunately, these loads are more alike than different and aren't likely to leave anyone hanging. The folks that buy a light training load and then full power carry loads are more at risk. A box of Tula 115 and Winchester PDX 124 +P at your local Walmart will behave a little differently.

Also weighing in... Does the make and model have a demonstrated reliability with a variety of loads over time, or is it something new and unvetted? Those things matter.

Not everyone can access or afford a hearty quantity of carry ammo to verify. Do get as much as you can though, and check it periodically.

This past weekend i put another 50 rounds of cheapo ammo, and 40 rounds of carry thru my little shield. She ran perfectly.
Your absolutely correct man, my carry round reacts very differently than the practice ammo.

BoringGuy45
03-17-14, 21:57
I had a single failure to feed in the the first 50 rounds through my M&P 45. Since then, it's been absolutely perfect, including through a couple classes that saw some relatively heavy use. It can eat just about anything I put through it. I'd trust my life to it. The same goes for my Kimber 1911; never failed ever. Jams are bound to happen; it's why failure drills are used. If any one kind of gun was 100% failure free, everyone would use it and there would be no need to train on clearing a weapon. It's tough for me to put a number on what I would consider "acceptable." There's a lot of factors; does the gun have the same problem even when parts are replaced over and over? Does it seem like once one problem is solved another takes its place? Do I have to justify the performance by saying that it works perfectly so long as I don't do this list of 50 things when I'm shooting? (i.e. this gun is great so long as it's lubed, but not over lubed, and so long as the temperature is between 50 and 70 degrees, and so long as the humidity is not too high, or so low that it's really dusty, or so long as I wait at least a second between shots, or...). My primary pistols have been shot in 100+ degree days with sweltering humidity, and also on single digit days, and when filthy and covered with layers of fine dust. I haven't set up a system, but from what I've seen of them, they seem to work.

EzGoingKev
03-17-14, 22:04
For me personally I would write off a few initial failures in a brand new mass produced gun. Sometimes tolerances stack up and something might fit a little tight and need some breaking in.

Kain
03-17-14, 22:14
For me personally I would write off a few initial failures in a brand new mass produced gun. Sometimes tolerances stack up and something might fit a little tight and need some breaking in.

I want to second this and also add if you aren't familiar with a particular design or it is completely new to you the malf might be user induced. Have seen new shooter limp wrist the hell out of a new automatic on more than one occasion. Bitch that it is broken, and then I pick it up, inspect it, reload and have no issues. Women are sometimes more prone to this issue, but have seen more than a few men who do it as well.

Crow Hunter
03-18-14, 10:23
I want to second this and also add if you aren't familiar with a particular design or it is completely new to you the malf might be user induced. Have seen new shooter limp wrist the hell out of a new automatic on more than one occasion. Bitch that it is broken, and then I pick it up, inspect it, reload and have no issues. Women are sometimes more prone to this issue, but have seen more than a few men who do it as well.

I have a very good friend who did this on my old Glock 23 back in the late 1990's.

Honestly the first malfuction that gun ever had was in his hands. I was shooting it, handed it to him and it stove piped. I said, "What the hell did you do to my gun?" Cleared it, reloaded it and shot a magazine through it, no problem. Reloaded it and handed it back to my friend, bang stove pipe... :confused:

Some people could break an anvil with a rubber mallet.

I guess he eventually figured it out though since he was a probation officer for a while and was issued a G17 and never complained.

TurretGunner
03-18-14, 12:42
95% of my handgun shooting is with Glocks and H&K's so I have a very low tollerance for malfunctions.

I can probally count on 1 hand the ammount I have had cumativley between half a dozen glocks and 3 H&K's over the years.

All of them were either cheap steel underpowered ammo or due to a mag with bent feed lips. I had over 3K through a glock 19 with no re-lube or cleaning and the bitch would not choke. Finnaly cleaned it after I realized it wouldnt quit before I would.


Everything with fail eventually but the two handguns I choose to trust my life with are Glocks and H&K. They aren't the only thing I own or carry, but nothing really comes close to glocks in 9mm or H&K's in .45 IMO.

bighawk
04-25-14, 14:24
I usually will not carry a gun until I put about 1000 rounds through it.

I typically go for a 400-500 round break in period in the first session and after cleaning I look for a flawless 500 rounds in a single session after that with a mixture of range ammo and SD ammo. If there are any malfunctions I attempt to identify the problem and fix it but will not carry until I get a flawless 500 rounds.

It makes me comfortable and I have always done it that way and I will continue to do so for any gun purchased.

I just hit 1000 flawless rounds with my newest Gen 3 Glock 19 in 2 sessions and it will shortly be placed into my rotation of carry guns.

adh
04-25-14, 17:32
Very interesting discussion.....I'd really like to know if the thought of a malfunction and when it may occur even crosses the minds of manufacturers. If it does then it would seem that some reputable manufacturers didn't do their due diligence before releasing some things that hit the market (I'm thinking gen 4 Glocks).

I'd guess that the thought of a malfunction doesn't even cross the mind your average American and that same average American probably doesn't even put 500 rounds through his weapon in the lifetime that he owns it (I bought a 2 pin 3rd gen G17 that still had the factory lube on the slide).

Personally if it's a weapon related malfunction every 500 to 1000 is acceptable, but I'm really hoping to see if there was a cause for it due to lack of proper maintenance.

Not acceptable is what recently happened to me....installed Vickers slide release on newest 2pin G17...shot IDPA match and went to slide lock numerous times with a loaded magazine...did my research (after the fact because I NEVER had this issue with another 2 pin G17 with a Vickers slide stop) and found that it is recommended by some to not run a Vickers slide release in a 2 pin Glock. Like a fool I guess I tossed the stock slide release and I can't carry that G17 now until I get it sorted out and have to get my hands on the appropriate factory slide release.

Coal Dragger
04-25-14, 18:23
A discussion on cost of guns VS malfunctions came up when a member stated that any gun that has A malfunction should be sold or sent back to the factory.

The question I asked was, what is reasonable to expect out of a gun that only cost the manufacturer $100-$150 dollars to produce?? None? 1 out of 100? 1 out of 1,000? 1, out of 5,000? 1 out of 10,000?

With mass produced ammo being of lessor and lessor quality these days, I think it is very unrealistic to not expect malfunctions in your pistol (whether ammo or gun induced).

So what say you? What is reasonable?



C4

For my uses Todd Green's 2,000 rounds between weapons related stoppages is more than acceptable enough, and I'll be even more generous to the gun that he will probably be. I clean and lubricate all of my firearms after using them for a range session much over 100 rounds, so if I am going to bet my life on that gun it damn well better be able to go 2,000 rounds between a stoppage or parts failure.

That is ignoring ammo related issues from poorly made factory ammo, or if by some chance I make some reloads that are out of dimensions or otherwise defective. You're right about ammo quality suffering these days, some of it is really bad. I used to reload because I was cheap.... now I do it because I'm cheap and my reloads are often more reliable than most practice ammo.

Talon167
04-25-14, 18:38
If we are talking strictly a gun malfunction, not attributed to ammo or user, I would say 1/1,000 is a decent number. I'd like to see my guns do better, closer to 1/10,000. So long as the gun's been taken care of I don't see this as too much to ask.

jukeboxx13
04-26-14, 11:53
I like to run each of my mags once through the gun which could be anywhere from 50-200 rounds. Since all guns can and will fail I focus more on learning how to clear malfunctions and what cause them.

I'll even trust a gun by its reputation alone without even firing a shot through the one I bought. Call me crazy if you want.

gtmtnbiker98
04-26-14, 13:48
I'll even trust a gun by its reputation alone without even firing a shot through the one I bought. Call me crazy if you want.
"Crazy," stupid is more like it.

EzGoingKev
04-26-14, 13:56
I'll even trust a gun by its reputation alone without even firing a shot through the one I bought. Call me crazy if you want.

Reputation is what I base my purchase on and that is it. Even the best companies out there have lemons from time to time.

ruchik
04-26-14, 15:34
You are crazy. Every manufacturer makes mistakes. You may get what I call "Friday night guns". A tech assembled the gun on a Friday, right before the end of his shift.

MrSmitty
04-26-14, 15:38
I'll even trust a gun by its reputation alone without even firing a shot through the one I bought. Call me crazy if you want.

I usually make a purchase based on reputation but trusting a weapon that you haven't fired a single shot through is absolutely asinine...especially if you plan on carrying said weapon or using it to defend your household...

jukeboxx13
04-26-14, 17:37
Ok I wont trust it and not fire it for months, but I will trust it out of the box till the first range trip which is usually the next day.

Sound better.

rickmy
04-26-14, 21:20
When I buy a new handgun I clean and lube it and fire approx 500rds of practice ammo. I'll run approx 50 duty to confirm they also function. I have owned Glocks, Sigs, , M&Ps, and been issued and shot several 1911s. I have had a malfunction out of every one. With ammo, lube, and shooter variations there are just so many variables. I sold all of my Glocks when I was mandated to carry an M&P as two of my Glocks would occasionally put brass in my face. Shot my M&P 40 yesterday with another firearm instructor and we both got brass to the face. Firearms are machines and failure is inevitable which is why it is important to be proficient at malfunction drills.

Sentaruu
04-27-14, 14:28
Ok I wont trust it and not fire it for months, but I will trust it out of the box till the first range trip which is usually the next day.

Sound better.

not at all

tmanker
04-27-14, 15:00
I trust them all until I have a malfunction. Whether that's 5 rounds or 5,000. All malfunctions happen for a reason, many of which are user induced or maintenance issues. Now, if the question were "how many rounds without malfunction before it's CCW worthy", that is entirely different for me. I honestly don't recall the last time I've had a malfunction with any of the dozen or so glocks I own. I have not shot my 41 or 42 yet, so that could change. My glock round count is between 5k-7k rounds. That being said, I always have a G19 AIWB in a US Grunt Gear holster.

richiecotite
04-27-14, 19:33
I'll even trust a gun by its reputation alone without even firing a shot through the one I bought. Call me crazy if you want.

Realistically speaking, the gun has a significantly higher chance of going "BANG" than "click". Like higher than 99.9%. Add to the .001% of actually having to use your pistola defensively, and your probably ok.

11BGrunt
05-07-18, 12:12
Clean gun & good ammo variable taken out here should be hardly any malfunction so 1/500 or 1/1000 I’m guessing?


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HeruMew
05-07-18, 12:56
Clean gun & good ammo variable taken out here should be hardly any malfunction so 1/500 or 1/1000 I’m guessing?


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I know you're trying to build post count, that's cool and all. But you replied to a 4 year old thread that was pretty hashed out. :P

11BGrunt
05-07-18, 12:59
I know you're trying to build post count, that's cool and all. But you replied to a 4 year old thread that was pretty hashed out. :P

So this totally came up on my notifications for some reason lol I didn’t even see how old this is,


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Doc Safari
05-07-18, 14:55
My BCM carbine I bought in 2010 had one malfunction during the first range trip, then nothing for the next 6,000 rounds. I consider that weapon thoroughly "vetted."

Based on that experience alone, I would say that any malfunction is unacceptable unless it can be called a "fluke".

That's why I carry Glocks: they usually have no trouble living up to that standard.

11BGrunt
05-07-18, 14:57
I think I stirred up an old nest thanks to my app going crazy!


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Pappabear
05-07-18, 15:45
I think you have to consider a break in period for guns too. I just bought a KAC SR15, and it wouldn't lock back on last round. All reloads, so I grabbed some trusty black hills, same thing. I was shocked.

After a couple mags, never happened again. You really have to give , on rare occasion , the first 200 rounds a consideration. It needs to be vetted after that with 500-1,000 flawless rounds. I had a pistol act goofy one time, then never again. Most guns this never happens.

PB

MWAG19919
05-14-18, 13:07
My G19 that I carry daily has had 2 malfunctions in roughly 5,000 rounds. One was a Blazer round that also would not fire in a Shield or XDM, so I suspect the ammo is to blame. The other was a round of Wolf. I didn't have the opportunity to check it in other guns, but I suspect the ammo was the culprit.

My HD rifle (BCM RECCE) had a slamfire on one of my handloads when I was using a soft primer, but has not happened since I switched to CCI #41. It had a couple light strikes on handloads when the temp was in the 20s, but I think the problem was with the ammo because the same thing happened in a DD. The rifles have been flawless throughout the rest of the 4,000+ rounds we've put through them.

My 686+ hates anything but a Federal primer. And I thought the ones with hammer-mounted firing pins were the "good ones"...

My Waffen Werks AK74 had ejection/extraction problems from the day I bought it. If I loaded 5 rounds or less in a mag it was fine, but with full mags it wouldn't cycle. I sent it to DDI for warranty work and it's been good since, but I've only got about 500 rounds through it since it's been fixed.

For me it depends on the nature of the malfunction. A random stoppage or two in several thousands of rounds is acceptable to me. That's why training is important. A pervasive problem relegates a gun to the sell/plink list. I trust the Glock, Shield, XDM, BCM, and Daniel Defense. I do not trust the S&W or the AK. I'll never trust that particular revolver for defensive purposes, and maybe after a problem-free 1,000 rounds I can trust the AK, but for now it and the revolver are range toys.

Mr. Goodtimes
05-14-18, 19:48
If it malfunctions at any time prior to 15k rds I won’t trust it.


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26 Inf
05-14-18, 21:13
If it malfunctions at any time prior to 15k rds I won’t trust it.

Assuming that you need to trust the firearm you carry, do you actually fire 15,000 rounds before you'll carry them?

ritepath
05-16-18, 20:55
If you can run 2 magazines each and everytime without fail (for ever and ever) I don't see why 2 mags wouldn't be acceptable.

For me if I can find reason for a failure I don't care, only those mystery failures bother me...

Rogue556
05-17-18, 14:07
If it malfunctions at any time prior to 15k rds I won’t trust it.


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http://i.imgur.com/VcVZFEx.jpg

pubb
05-25-18, 11:46
For a carry gun, I would be looking at causes. If it is something that pops up after a gun gets extremely dirty or fouled, then sure. I am OK with that.

A gun that is persnickety over ammo types, specific magazines, etc. will never be something I stake my life on.

1986s4
05-27-18, 06:38
If a pistol frequently malfunctions, as in once per mag to once per 100 rounds out the door it goes. It should run if new and lubricated. I've bought three pistols that couldn't get through a magazine without issue. Sold off two [with disclosure] and one was replaced by the manufacturer. I traded off the replacement without even taking it out of the plastic and I never again thought of buying that brand again.
After several years and 5000+ rounds I've found out what my Colt .38 super likes and dislikes. But it's basic function is sound and it's dislikes are very narrow. My Beretta 92c has been perfect.

1168
05-27-18, 14:26
Why should it work new and unlubricated? Do you carry it like that? I’ve had pistols that run new, straight out of the box, but I would not be concerned with a gun that needed a few hundred rounds break in. Nor would I consider carrying any gun before running a few hundred rounds through it.

MegademiC
05-27-18, 15:00
Why should it work new and unlubricated? Do you carry it like that? I’ve had pistols that run new, straight out of the box, but I would not be concerned with a gun that needed a few hundred rounds break in. Nor would I consider carrying any gun before running a few hundred rounds through it.

Yea, about half the new pistols ive neen needed a mag or 2 to break in. Most are over 1000 rds without issue now.

Coal Dragger
05-27-18, 15:49
My VP9 carry gun finally had its first malfunction the other day. Failure to extract one of my reloads, didn’t recognize the headstamp on the case so must have been range pick up brass. Took several attempts to clear it out of the chamber, kydex holsters and rear sights with a ledge did the trick.

1986s4
05-27-18, 19:14
Why should it work new and unlubricated? Do you carry it like that? I’ve had pistols that run new, straight out of the box, but I would not be concerned with a gun that needed a few hundred rounds break in. Nor would I consider carrying any gun before running a few hundred rounds through it.

Pretty sure I said new and lubricated and my semi-autos run wet. Yes, I think a new gun should work out of the box after inspection and lubrication. I have never owned a custom pistol so maybe that would change things.

1168
05-27-18, 20:38
Pretty sure I said new and lubricated and my semi-autos run wet. Yes, I think a new gun should work out of the box after inspection and lubrication. I have never owned a custom pistol so maybe that would change things.

I apologize for my poor reading skills regarding lubrication. I still have no problem with guns that require a break in, custom or otherwise.

1986s4
05-28-18, 09:29
I apologize for my poor reading skills regarding lubrication. I still have no problem with guns that require a break in, custom or otherwise.

No problem Sir. We can agree to disagree on a break in period but fortunately we both have choices.

RetroRevolver77
05-28-18, 11:00
Three thousand rounds between stoppages seems reasonable. Now that doesn't mean you don't have to lube it or run a bore snake down the barrel during that time either but short of a full break down and cleaning- a firearm should go at least a few thousand rounds without issue.

Ron3
05-29-18, 11:18
Some guns need to prove themselves more than others.

With a 1911 I'd like to see 500 rnds through it without a problem. But a Glock I'd carry after 200 rnds to check function, point of aim, and see that it doesn't throw brass in my face. Then inspect it for problems. None found I'd carry it.

But generally for me it's 200 rnds minimum. 500 better, 1000 best.

I believe in keeping my weapons pretty clean and lubricated. I've let a pistol go to about 1200 rnds without cleaning but today I clean them between 250-750 rnds.

Some guns, like my Beretta .25's, get cleaned after ever shoot whether it was 50 rnds or 200 rnds.

Guns last longer and stay more reliable with proper cleaning and lubrication.

Circle_10
05-29-18, 15:29
I like to get 500 rounds through a handgun, with at least 100 of that being my carry load of choice, with no malfunctions that can't be blamed on bad ammo, a bad magazine, or operator error. If I get more than one or two malfunctions within the first 500 to 1000 rounds then I start getting a bit OCD about it.
I usually do lubricate a new gun before shooting it, because that's the condition I'm going to be carrying the gun in. I don't always have spotlessly clean guns, but they are usually well lubed.

I recently switched from a full sized VP9 to carrying a VP9SK. I had one really weird malfunction within the first 50 or 100 rounds however I think it was due to user stupidity so I didn't hold it against the gun. I started carrying it when it had about 600 through it. Currently it has about 1100 rounds through it with the only hiccup being the really weird one that happened early on.
However I probably just jinxed myself....

Mozart
05-30-18, 20:37
I’m ok with a malfunction within the first 100 or so, could just be the parts wearing together or stiff springs or something. But after that, with proper cleaning and lube every 300-600 rounds, I expect a pistol to go until the magazine spring loses enough power to occasionally fail to lock the slide back: about 3,000-5,000 rounds or so.

26 Inf
05-30-18, 23:42
I've already posted my 'vetting' scheme.

I'm not a cleaning fanatic, but after a carry gun is fired it is cleaned and lubed before it is carried again. To me, cleaning is a chance to inspect and function check.

Range /training guns are a differing matter.