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View Full Version : CAG Switching from G22 back to 1911?



Aiden Fontana
12-27-13, 21:12
I had somebody on another forum tell me that Kyle Lamb and LAV confirmed that Delta is now ditching the G22 to go BACK to the expensive customized 1911s. For the life of me, I can't figure out why they would ever do this, seeing as why the original reason for going Glock was cost. And frankly, I have a hard time believing they had THAT many problems with the G22. Just wanted to see what you guys thought.

Aiden

P.S. I also posted this in the ask LAV forum, I'll report back soon.

plouffedaddy
12-28-13, 22:06
I'd imagine the individual Soldier in CAG will be able to pick their weapon within reason. Both the 1911 and G22 would be within reason.

The Dumb Gun Collector
12-28-13, 22:17
I think the G22/light combination is a real problem. Combine that with the fact that a properly set up 1911 is nearly impossible to beat, I can see why the best of the best would want 1911s.

YVK
12-28-13, 22:23
I think the G22/light combination is a real problem. Combine that with the fact that a properly set up 1911 is nearly impossible to beat, I can see why the best of the best would want 1911s.

I really don't care that much who shoots what outside of academic knowledge, but, out of curiosity, do their 1911s have light rails?

The Dumb Gun Collector
12-28-13, 22:35
I know the last guns used before they switched over to Glocks had some sort of provision for lights (Dawson rail?). I would imagine their current guns would have the same or better.

That being said I have ZERO information on whether they have switched back. Given the current drama surrounding Glock reliability it certainly makes sense that if you are going to use a gun you have to tinker with you might as well have a 1911.

okie john
12-28-13, 23:24
That being said I have ZERO information on whether they have switched back.

If we're honest, this will probably be the case for all of us for a while.


Okie John

Dmaynor
12-29-13, 01:52
I'd need to see a reference on this. In budget cutting times a. $500 pistol is a lot better than to wear in a holster and Brest around that a 3-4k custom 1911.

Mag capacity is the other reason I don't they would switch. They have been in almost permeant conflict of more that 10 years. Gone or the tines of gun myths. If you are do A DA hot as Delta and your primary goes down, you switch to your secondary. If you secondary on his 7 rounds compared to 15 in a Glock 22, or 17 in a Glock 9.

LMT Shooter
12-29-13, 05:36
I wonder what kind of round counts they put through their pistols? I know Glock is a good gun, but a steel frame 1911 ought to last longer, or am I full of shit? If a 1911 has a longer service life, that would offset the additional cost.

And I don't see magazine capacity being a factor.

Gary1911A1
12-29-13, 06:21
If true, I bet it's the superior trigger of the 1911 over the Glock more than anything.

Darkwood1
12-29-13, 06:51
This is an interesting interview with larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn talking about their experience with the 1911 and working on a replacement with H&K (the HK45). This is some food for thought from a couple of guys with a lot of experience with the 1911 platform.

http://pistol-training.com/articles/hk45-interview-with-ken-hackathorn-and-larry-vickers

T2C
12-29-13, 07:37
I wonder what kind of round counts they put through their pistols? I know Glock is a good gun, but a steel frame 1911 ought to last longer, or am I full of shit? If a 1911 has a longer service life, that would offset the additional cost.

And I don't see magazine capacity being a factor.

The Glock 22 service life should be 50,000-60,000 rounds. I am not sure how much work a military armorer would have to do to a 1911 to make it run that long.

Some LEO agencies have had issues with lights attached to their Glock 22 pistols. That issue has been addressed.

Does anyone know what load is being shot through the Glock 22 by the military?



I really love the 1911 platform, but can see why forward thinking people would consider switching to something else.

The Dumb Gun Collector
12-29-13, 07:51
Mag capacity is the other reason I don't they would switch. They have been in almost permeant conflict of more that 10 years. Gone or the tines of gun myths. If you are do A DA hot as Delta and your primary goes down, you switch to your secondary. If you secondary on his 7 rounds compared to 15 in a Glock 22, or 17 in a Glock 9.

I guess you have to pick your myth. For some, it is capacity over all "spray n' pray." For others it is bullet size/weight "they all fall to ball."

I land somewhere in the middle. For years, I was a big. 9mm guy. I got into guns in the late 80s when wonder nines were everything. Of course, there were some high profile incidents and then everybody went to .40 when the 10mm was determined to be too much for most folks. I then noticed when the wars started everybody seemed to want a .45 again. SEALs went so far as to adopt the HK45c right in the middle of all the nonsense. The service branches were marching towards adopting a new .45 pistol when everything wound down and the money ran out in 08. I understand a lot of the trainer guys are recommending 9mm now. I understand that, if you are going to ask gold to bring 1000 rounds of ammo to a class it is a hell of a lot easier to get folks to bring $14 a box 9mm than $22 a box .45. It comes down to money.



Anyway, if these guys go back to 1911s it is because the 1911 is the easiest gun to shoot well. As they were pre .40 cal I am sure they will still be running them with 10 round mags, just in case.

Ironbutt
12-29-13, 09:23
The Glock 22 service life should be 50,000-60,000 rounds. I am not sure how much work a military armorer would have to do to a 1911 to make it run that long.

I was in the Marines in the mid/late 60's & we were using some very old 1911's, (Maybe the same ones my Dad used in WWII & his Dad used in WWI), that were obviously cobbled together from spare parts. They worked. All the time.

I usually carry my G17 or G23 due to the legendary Glock reliability, but if I want to be honest about it, I've had more problems with my Glocks than I've had with any of my three 1911's. Two of the 1911's have thousands more rounds thru them than any of my Glocks.

As far as capacity goes, I've been in firefights, (Long ago!), & I don't ever remember wishing I had less ammo. So the Glocks have the 1911 beat there, but if my initial load of 9 rounds in my 1911, plus two more 8 round back up mags aren't enough; then I need close air support, not more ammo.

Now that I think about it, I may change back to my TRP for EDC.:)

fourXfour
12-29-13, 10:12
I bet they saw the Marine's M45A1 and were jealous.

Aiden Fontana
12-29-13, 10:42
Yeah I've heard that the G22/light combo causes some real issues. However, I've also heard that Glock claims that the edition of a special mag spring eliminates the problems completely. I don't own a G22, so I don't know if this is true. Anyway, if you reference this article: http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2011/09/12/delta-force-and-the-glock/ the operator states that the 1911s were simply costing too much, thus the Glock was adopted. I just have a hard time believing that the Glocks ran so terribly that they were willing to go back to spending a ton of money on 1911s. I don't really care what they use in the end, I just think it's an interesting topic.

hogarth
12-29-13, 10:47
FWIW, I have read things Paul Howe has said comparing the two. He said he liked 1911s a lot but, when in Delta, they had an assortment of armorers on hand to keep them running, something the average civilian or even SWAT member doesn't have.

Also, I thought I remembered reading that the main impetus behind the switch was the lack of reliability in sandy environments of their tight-tolerance 1911s.

I think the Gen 4 G22s run fine with lights.

weggy
12-29-13, 10:56
I would imagine that 99.5% of these folks "work" is with a rifle. A pistol, while not a side thought is not as important as a rifle. However, it must work when you need it. Hence 1911. Just my worthless opinion.

Drummer
12-29-13, 13:59
The Glock 22 weapon light issues have been fixed with current generation magazines. The 50-60K service life, however, is generous. My first G22 duty pistol self destructed well short of 20K. Maybe the new Colt USMC 1911 changed their minds? It seems like the the HK45 would be a more obvious choice.

T2C
12-29-13, 14:45
The Glock 22 weapon light issues have been fixed with current generation magazines. The 50-60K service life, however, is generous. My first G22 duty pistol self destructed well short of 20K.

That is a really short service life for a Glock 22. Did you contact Glock and see if they would repair the pistol?

Trajan
12-29-13, 15:15
I guess you have to pick your myth. For some, it is capacity over all "spray n' pray." For others it is bullet size/weight "they all fall to ball."

I land somewhere in the middle. For years, I was a big. 9mm guy. I got into guns in the late 80s when wonder nines were everything. Of course, there were some high profile incidents and then everybody went to .40 when the 10mm was determined to be too much for most folks. I then noticed when the wars started everybody seemed to want a .45 again. SEALs went so far as to adopt the HK45c right in the middle of all the nonsense. The service branches were marching towards adopting a new .45 pistol when everything wound down and the money ran out in 08. I understand a lot of the trainer guys are recommending 9mm now. I understand that, if you are going to ask gold to bring 1000 rounds of ammo to a class it is a hell of a lot easier to get folks to bring $14 a box 9mm than $22 a box .45. It comes down to money.

When it comes down to modern JHPs, if the 9x19 will do the exact same thing as a .45ACP, but hold more with less recoil, why would you choose anything else? Then you go into the fact that for ball, 9x19 is cheaper as you mentioned.


I would also imagine a unit such as Delta isn't using commercial ammunition, so the issues associated with such that many of us are discovering as of late are not present.

As far as this thread: Some guy at a gun shop told me Delta and Seal Team Six are now using hi points.

Don't believe everything you read.

JimmyB62
12-29-13, 16:26
That is a really short service life for a Glock 22. Did you contact Glock and see if they would repair the pistol?

The higher round shooters in my old department found many of the 22 slides would crack in the 20-30 k range. Not uncommon at all in my experience.

Biggy
12-29-13, 16:34
If they do go back to 45acp, I wonder why they just don't use H&K 45's and run them in cocked and locked mode ? They have been proven reliable,accurate and durable beyond debate.

RyanB
12-29-13, 16:36
CAG uses 155gr EFMJ.

The Dumb Gun Collector
12-29-13, 17:02
When it comes down to modern JHPs, if the 9x19 will do the exact same thing as a .45ACP, but hold more with less recoil, why would you choose anything else? Then you go into the fact that for ball, 9x19 is cheaper as you mentioned.

I have been hearing this since the 80s. Each generation is finally the one that is just as good."

RHINOWSO
12-29-13, 17:15
While interesting, what does it really matter? Trump up peoples love for the 1911 and hate for the Glock (or change their love to hate, cuz if CAG ditches them they must suck... Lol).

Both are quality handguns that in the right hands can do great work, and in less than talented hands not so much.

Same with NSW and their use of P226/P239, HK45C, and "other" handguns as required. Talented shooters should have quality weapons to suit their mission.

T2C
12-29-13, 17:27
The higher round shooters in my old department found many of the 22 slides would crack in the 20-30 k range. Not uncommon at all in my experience.

My second Glock 22 gave up at approx. 58,900 rounds. All I shoot is 180g ball or hollow points.

Were your people shooting high speed 155g ammunition?

RyanB
12-29-13, 18:45
Glock 40s are hardly the best of the line.

T2C
12-29-13, 22:30
Glock 40s are hardly the best of the line.


I agree. The Glock 9mm pistols are known for lasting much longer than the .40 calibers.

one
12-30-13, 04:16
At a Ken Hackathorn class back in Sept. he told me that they were dumping, or had dumped, the G22's and have standardized on the G 17 3rd gen. At a Vicker's class the week prior LAV discussed 9mm ammo selection that they were using
but never mentioned dropping the .40 cal specifically. However at that point in time it didn't occur to me to ask if they were dropping the G22's or not. Had the classes been switched in order I'd have asked then.

At this point it's all nearly four month old information.

Pappabear
12-30-13, 10:30
I was in the Marines in the mid/late 60's & we were using some very old 1911's, (Maybe the same ones my Dad used in WWII & his Dad used in WWI), that were obviously cobbled together from spare parts. They worked. All the time.

I usually carry my G17 or G23 due to the legendary Glock reliability, but if I want to be honest about it, I've had more problems with my Glocks than I've had with any of my three 1911's. Two of the 1911's have thousands more rounds thru them than any of my Glocks.

As far as capacity goes, I've been in firefights, (Long ago!), & I don't ever remember wishing I had less ammo. So the Glocks have the 1911 beat there, but if my initial load of 9 rounds in my 1911, plus two more 8 round back up mags aren't enough; then I need close air support, not more ammo.

Now that I think about it, I may change back to my TRP for EDC.:)

" if 9 rounds plus 2 mags .....Air support". LMAO. That's gotta be the best quote in the entire thread. Good stuff Iron butt.

I too have several 1911's that have NEVER MALF'd , with 5K plus rounds. TRP's etc. I do understand the love for the HK45C cocked and locked. Lotta love there.

ST911
12-30-13, 10:39
I hate to be a buzzkill, but... I suspect that no one from the unit is likely to bring us up to speed here. That leaves us with WAGs at the low end, and honest attempts at theories lacking sufficient data at best. May they have what they need, the budget to maintain it, and the skills with which to use it effectively.

TMS951
12-30-13, 11:29
At a Ken Hackathorn class back in Sept. he told me that they were dumping, or had dumped, the G22's and have standardized on the G 17 3rd gen. At a Vicker's class the week prior LAV discussed 9mm ammo selection that they were using
but never mentioned dropping the .40 cal specifically. However at that point in time it didn't occur to me to ask if they were dropping the G22's or not. Had the classes been switched in order I'd have asked then.

At this point it's all nearly four month old information.

What was the description the the 9mm ammo LAV gave?

JimmyB62
12-30-13, 21:24
My second Glock 22 gave up at approx. 58,900 rounds. All I shoot is 180g ball or hollow points.

Were your people shooting high speed 155g ammunition?

We only shot Fed HST 180 for duty and training. I do know that the RSA's were not changed as regularly as they should have. More 22's failed at 20-30k than made it to 60k for us. All the high mileage shooters had switched back to 9's by the time I left. I guess I'm a bit off topic. Feel free to PM if you have questions.

Dmaynor
12-30-13, 21:51
I hate to be a buzzkill, but... I suspect that no one from the unit is likely to bring us up to speed here. That leaves us with WAGs at the low end, and honest attempts at theories lacking sufficient data at best. May they have what they need, the budget to maintain it, and the skills with which to use it effectively.

I don't think the pistol they carry is a state secret.

CodeRed30
12-31-13, 00:38
I don't think the pistol they carry is a state secret.

Not technically, but it goes along with operational security. The less our enemies know about our capabilities, the better.

RyanB
12-31-13, 02:12
Not technically, but it goes along with operational security. The less our enemies know about our capabilities, the better.

Pistols are not capabilities. From the perspective of the shooter they might be important but as far as the enemy is concerned it's just a pistol.

Bolt_Overide
12-31-13, 08:22
Pistols are not capabilities. From the perspective of the shooter they might be important but as far as the enemy is concerned it's just a pistol.

You sir, could not be more wrong. The thing about intel is this, very VERY rarely do you get one source (human, electronic, or otherwise) that paints you the whole picture in one neat little package. 99.999% of the time, you know what you know from taking thousands upon thousands of smaller pieces of the puzzle, gotten from different sources, and piecing them together as the big picture.

EVERY piece of intel should be guarded jealously. I for one think people in general need to STFU about what those men are doing and how they do it. Instead, be thankful they are out there, shooting people who wish to do us harm in the face, and leave it at that.

nick84
12-31-13, 08:23
Without any SA whatsoever personally, I can only say that this thread brought me an immediate eyeroll. Round and round the mulberry bush we go again, the 1911 guys and the glock guys, lol. Regardless of each platform's capability, I find the idea that CAG would make any equipment or supply decision based on budgeting to be absolutely hilarious. If I had to guess it would be more like : Hey, supply, get me two of ____________ and then get me these _____________ widgets to put on it, now give 9 gazillion rounds of _____________ to practice with. To each his own, just like real life lol. Just my SWAG. ;)

KevinB
12-31-13, 08:56
I hate to be a buzzkill, but... I suspect that no one from the unit is likely to bring us up to speed here. That leaves us with WAGs at the low end, and honest attempts at theories lacking sufficient data at best. May they have what they need, the budget to maintain it, and the skills with which to use it effectively.

and with this we shall close the thread.

The board does not support any supposition or disclosures about SMU's