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okie john
12-29-13, 12:05
How does that alter your technique? Do you still shoot for the A-Zone, or do you shoot for the credit card?


Okie John

tuck
12-29-13, 12:14
It wouldn't change anything for me. An A-Zone hit with a .380 still beats a missed credit card.

Voodoo_Man
12-29-13, 12:46
Accuracy is deadly.

Clavical notch shooting, works well even with a .380

balance
12-29-13, 16:58
Is this a "caliber" question, or a "small pistol" question?

I'd probably prefer to get stuck with a Beretta 84 if I'm stuck with a .380, and I'd shoot it the same as a 9mm.

Magic_Salad0892
12-29-13, 20:06
I'd fire for the sternum to upper chest area, same as I would with any other pistol.

If that kind of shot wasn't available, I'd make a hit wherever I could.

Caliber, and gun doesn't change that.

RWH24
12-29-13, 22:58
It does not matter if you have a Beretta Minx in 22 short. Put em in the same spot. Heard and lung.
If you are real good, go for an eye socket!

T2C
12-29-13, 23:07
Nothing changes. Shoot for the credit card with both your 1911 and Walther PPK.

ST911
12-29-13, 23:08
I'll take the target area that offers me the balance I need of maximum hit potential and incapacitating effect.

Like any other gun, maximize your proficiency with the gun, choose the best possible ammunition, and carry always.

SteveL
12-30-13, 07:37
Stupid question of the day: what is the "credit card?"

ptmccain
12-30-13, 08:09
Just don't use hollow points with a .380. FMJ is the way to go.

mattg1024
12-30-13, 08:11
Stupid question of the day: what is the "credit card?"

Take a credit card and put it on your forehead.

Abraham
12-30-13, 10:06
Thanks SteveL for asking the question.

I too had no idea what the hell the "credit card" was in reference to.

I've searched, but was unable to find a glossary for the many cryptic references and abbreviations slung around on this forum.

Is there one?

Thanks!@

okie john
12-30-13, 10:24
Stupid question of the day: what is the "credit card?"

Not stupid at all. It's a scoring zone in the head of an IPSC target as shown below. I think it corresponds roughly to the eye sockets and the sinus cavities. They offer less resistance to bullets than the frontal plate (forehead), which evolved specifically to protect the brain.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee68/okie_john/WilsonBarrel25Yards.jpg (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/okie_john/media/WilsonBarrel25Yards.jpg.html)


I've searched, but was unable to find a glossary for the many cryptic references and abbreviations slung around on this forum.

Is there one?

Not that I know of. The acronyms threw me for a loop for the first year or so...


Okie John

ptmccain
12-30-13, 10:30
You just want to put as many rounds into the threat as possible to stop it and hoping that you can get some well placed in the credit card area is a pretty big gamble, imho.

Abraham
12-30-13, 11:11
Okie John,

Thanks.

I guess a lot of the acronym slinging is due in part to a love of things military by many, but I find it mostly a poor form of communication if it's arcane.

I suppose though the slingers enjoy a certain "secret society" joy when tossing around acronyms only the cognoscenti understand.

I'm sending off for the decoder ring as I didn't find one in my cereal box.

T2C
12-30-13, 11:13
Just don't use hollow points with a .380. FMJ is the way to go.

You would recommend FMJ over a good hollow point load? Would you give me the reasons for your choice?

okie john
12-30-13, 11:15
I guess a lot of the acronym slinging is due in part to a love of things military by many, but I find it mostly a poor form of communication if it's arcane.

I suppose though the slingers enjoy a certain "secret society" joy when tossing around acronyms only the cognoscenti understand.

I'm sending off for the decoder ring as I didn't find one in my cereal box.

Yes and no. A lot of people post from phones, so it's easier to use a TLA.


Okie John

ptmccain
12-30-13, 11:18
You would recommend FMJ over a good hollow point load? Would you give me the reasons for your choice?

It is all about penetration.

There are a number of really good YouTube videos demonstrating the relative ineffectiveness of JHP in .380 compared to .380 FMJ in terms of penetration.

Simply put a FMJ .380 is going to punch through multiple layer of clothing and/or punch further into the threat than a FMJ .380 round will.

Abraham
12-30-13, 11:26
okie john,

I love it!

TLA = Three Letter Acronym

Every now and then a blind hog...

P.S. Thanks for starting the glossary.

Airhasz
12-30-13, 11:50
Simply put a FMJ .380 is going to punch through multiple layer of clothing and/or punch further into the threat than a FMJ .380 round will.

Not making sense???

ptmccain
12-30-13, 11:57
Obviously, a typo, but here, let me fix it.

Simply put a FMJ .380 bullet is going to punch through multiple layer of clothing and/or punch further into the threat than a JHP .380 bullet will.

SteveL
12-30-13, 12:05
Take a credit card and put it on your forehead.


Not stupid at all. It's a scoring zone in the head of an IPSC target as shown below. I think it corresponds roughly to the eye sockets and the sinus cavities. They offer less resistance to bullets than the frontal plate (forehead), which evolved specifically to protect the brain.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee68/okie_john/WilsonBarrel25Yards.jpg (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/okie_john/media/WilsonBarrel25Yards.jpg.html)

Okie John

Thank you both for responding. Credit card is a term I haven't come across before, as used in this context.

The M
12-30-13, 12:06
You just want to put as many rounds into the threat as possible to stop it and hoping that you can get some well placed in the credit card area is a pretty big gamble, imho.

Bad guys have been known to keep up the fight for a long time with lots of holes in them. Sure, they eventually die due to blood loss, but I need to STOP their fight now so I go for the small stop zones. Aim small, miss small right? Besides, I carry a single stack .45 so I can't play the spray and pray game.

okie john
12-30-13, 12:13
Thank you both for responding. Credit card is a term I haven't come across before, as used in this context.

It's pretty common when people write about specific drills. Now that you know what it means, you'll probably see it everywhere.


Okie John

Spiffums
12-30-13, 15:32
Not stupid at all. It's a scoring zone in the head of an IPSC target as shown below. I think it corresponds roughly to the eye sockets and the sinus cavities. They offer less resistance to bullets than the frontal plate (forehead), which evolved specifically to protect the brain.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee68/okie_john/WilsonBarrel25Yards.jpg (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/okie_john/media/WilsonBarrel25Yards.jpg.html)



Not that I know of. The acronyms threw me for a loop for the first year or so...


Okie John



The Credit Card is the A zone.....just saying.

RWH24
12-30-13, 19:47
Stupid question of the day: what is the "credit card?"
Left Front pocket? Femoral Artery?

Back pocket, buttocks?

MegademiC
12-30-13, 20:57
The Credit Card is the A zone.....just saying.

Hmm I always though it was the rectangle in the head. It's way closer to credit card sized than the a zone. And oriented the correct way.

Op good info here, but honestly, I'd trade for a j frame or shield.
380 I think hydro shocks are good since they only open up to a wad cutter, it still penetrates but offers a little better term ballistics. I'd research it though as I memory is vague.

Practice failure to stop drills.

ST911
12-30-13, 20:59
It's the small rectangular box on the head. It is also an "A" zone for scoring.

okie john
12-31-13, 13:32
So thus far, the court of M4C opinion states that it's better to use FMJ ammo in a .380 than JHP, and that it's better to keep shooting for the chest in most cases.

What else do we know about living with mouse guns?


Okie John

Ned Christiansen
12-31-13, 13:49
CorBon DPX, 978 plus in an LCP, 1129 in a PPK/S, pretty consistent 9" deep in bare gel or light clothing barrier. 11" after going though a windshield. 80 of 80 grains retained weight in all cases. Just what I've seen in testing, not saying it means this or that. FWIW.

In my LCP, DPX is iffy because I think they really went to minimum on every dimension in the gun and magazine, so DPX binds up in the mag-- at least the lot I had. Mighta been the ammo too.

T2C
12-31-13, 16:36
So thus far, the court of M4C opinion states that it's better to use FMJ ammo in a .380 than JHP, and that it's better to keep shooting for the chest in most cases.

What else do we know about living with mouse guns?


Okie John

I prefer HP ammunition. Center of Mass is easier to hit in a moving situation at a wide range of distances, but if you are close to contact distance I would go for a head shot.

pat701
12-31-13, 17:28
Trade or sale to get a Sig P239 in 9mm.

FloridaWoodsman
01-01-14, 00:30
You can get reasonable penetration with a hollow-point .380 IF you don't hit thick solid bone. For that reason, I plan on a chest target rather than face. I remember reading a police report on a fellow who used a .380 to shoot himself in the temple (the thin part) and it took an hour for him to die (bullet type not noted). If you and your mousegun can handle it, there are +P rounds that should bust through.

1_click_off
01-01-14, 12:58
Thanks SteveL for asking the question.

I too had no idea what the hell the "credit card" was in reference to.

I've searched, but was unable to find a glossary for the many cryptic references and abbreviations slung around on this forum.

Is there one?

Thanks!@
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?144881-The-M4Carbine-net-Dictionary-of-Acronyms

Bimmer
01-01-14, 13:01
Just don't use hollow points with a .380. FMJ is the way to go.


You would recommend FMJ over a good hollow point load? Would you give me the reasons for your choice?


It is all about penetration...

Simply put a FMJ .380 is going to punch through multiple layer of clothing and/or punch further into the threat than a FMJ .380 round will.


I think hydro shocks are good since they only open up to a wad cutter, it still penetrates but offers a little better term ballistics....


I prefer HP ammunition...


AFAIK, the problem with .380ACP is that JPHs don't always penetrate 12" of gelatin after hitting barriers, so they flunk the FBI's tests.

Especially if you're shooting at center mass of a bad guy who has his arms out in front of him, and the bullet hits an arm before hitting his center mass, then the bullet may not penetrate enough to hit his vitals.

FWIW, I load my SIG P230 with Hydra-Shok JHPs.

weggy
01-01-14, 13:18
I normally carry a G30, but if i had a .380 it really would not change anything. I might add a couple of extra shots just to be sure.

LibertyNeverDies
01-01-14, 14:30
Center mass till they quite being a threat. If they are extremely close but out of arms reach running at me in the unlikely situation I was able to think I would go for a head shot. I train to center of mass because I'm not confident enough to think I could get a head shot under stress.

T2C
01-01-14, 17:11
AFAIK, the problem with .380ACP is that JPHs don't always penetrate 12" of gelatin after hitting barriers, so they flunk the FBI's tests.

Especially if you're shooting at center mass of a bad guy who has his arms out in front of him, and the bullet hits an arm before hitting his center mass, then the bullet may not penetrate enough to hit his vitals.

FWIW, I load my SIG P230 with Hydra-Shok JHPs.

I conducted a frontier autopsy on a 30-35 lb raccoon I shot with my Walther PPK and CCI Lawman 90g HP. The raccoon was shot from behind while running away and I hit her just above the tail. I recovered the projectile underneath her skin in the front of the neck. The bullet expanded to roughly 1-1/2 times it's original size. The raccoon measured 12" from entry wound to the place where I recovered the bullet.

I had a gun shop owner give me a Hydra-Shok JHP round that was shot out of a Walther PPK into the thigh of a LE reserve officer. The reserve officer was handling his PPK while seated in a squad car (another thread could be started on this alone) and he discharged the pistol into his thigh from just a few inches away. The projectile expanded beautifully and was recovered from the back of his thigh just underneath the skin. Lucky for the reserve officer the bullet missed his femoral artery.

None of this is scientific, but the projectiles expanded beautifully and I have seen decent penetratioin with the CCI round. I don't expect 9mm performance out of .380 Auto, but I still carry hollow points when I carry my church gun.

yellowfin
01-02-14, 10:55
As far as aiming zones go, next time you're sitting across from someone, observe how much the center of their face moves compared the center of their chest even in casual interaction. Then multiply that times how much more movement there is in a more hurried, excited, physically involved activity. THEN tell me which of the two areas you're less likely to miss if you had to aim a short barreled pistol at them.

Krull
01-02-14, 13:30
.380,.32,.25,.22 any of the smaller calibers wouldn't change much of anything with me,I just know I may need a few extra shots to get things done....

The "professional" gun types make me laugh a bit they act like if it's not such-and-such caliber they'll die horribly from it's ineffectiveness :rolleyes:

Hey a gun is a gun is a GUN any of them can kill,my idea of a professional is someone who can make anything work :dirol:

As I've said before I've carried a .22 and that along with a knife made me comfortable enough.

ST911
01-02-14, 19:02
.380,.32,.25,.22 any of the smaller calibers wouldn't change much of anything with me,I just know I may need a few extra shots to get things done....

The "professional" gun types make me laugh a bit they act like if it's not such-and-such caliber they'll die horribly from it's ineffectiveness :rolleyes:

Hey a gun is a gun is a GUN any of them can kill,my idea of a professional is someone who can make anything work :dirol:

As I've said before I've carried a .22 and that along with a knife made me comfortable enough.

The problem with that theory is that it assumes that you'll have continued time and opportunity to put additional rounds into a target zone. Selecting a load with a proven track record, meeting a measurable standard of terminal ballistic performance, increases the odds of effectively addressing a threat quickly and definitively.

MegademiC
01-02-14, 20:00
.380,.32,.25,.22 any of the smaller calibers wouldn't change much of anything with me,I just know I may need a few extra shots to get things done....

The "professional" gun types make me laugh a bit they act like if it's not such-and-such caliber they'll die horribly from it's ineffectiveness :rolleyes:

Hey a gun is a gun is a GUN any of them can kill,my idea of a professional is someone who can make anything work :dirol:

As I've said before I've carried a .22 and that along with a knife made me comfortable enough.
Some people go unarmed daily and feel "comfortable enough" until they are in a violent situation.

Its about knowing limitations of your gear. People HAVE died from ineffectiveness of caliber and bullet selection alike. Good shots have stopped short resulting in continued fighting ultimately leading to LEOs dead that would have been alive. Notably the Miami shootout, it was a 38spcl iirc, but performed more like modern 380 hollowpoints. If it performed like current 9mm ammo, at least one of the officers would have been alive after the shootout, maybe more as I'm going off memory.

DBR
01-02-14, 23:04
IIRC, in the Miami incident it was a 9mm Silvertip that "failed" and a 38spl from a snub that ended the incident.