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View Full Version : What do you make of this? (M&P accuracy related)



ASH556
12-30-13, 11:48
Purpose/Theory:

As a civilian, it is my belief that I should be most proficient with the weapon I carry daily - a pistol. If I need to use it to defend myself or others, it will likely be in a public place and thus, due to the high probability of collateral damage, a high degree of accuracy is important to me. I don't much buy into the whole "belly gun" or 7 ft concept. Sure, that's a possible scenario, but so is a longer shot (and all of these "possibilities" are low-probability because I generally don't go into bad areas and have enough situational awareness to avoid getting into bad situations).

Anyway, all of that to give a background or end purpose for what follows:

As I've posted here before, I have a pair of Smith M&P 9's. One stays at home with a Surefire X300/DG switch, Crimson Trace Grips, and an AAC EVO-9. It is the "house" gun and is also the one my wife chose for "hers" and after shooting several different pistols, shotguns, and carbines, is the one she now has the most training with. It is a plenty accurate pistol and can produce 3" 10-shot groups at 25 yds.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7314/9889267613_5158bab141_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/9889267613/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/9889267613/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

The other M&P is my daily carry gun. It wears Trijicon HD sights, a Surefire X300, and has been stippled. I really love everything about the pistol except its accuracy. I sent the barrel, slide, and block (they were on another frame at the time) back to Smith for poor accuracy once already. When it came back with a new barrel, it did shoot better (in the 3"-4" range). Then, I swapped everything over to this frame and accuracy went to hell. As you'll see in the pics below, we're talking about an average of 6" groups from the bench. What makes it even more frustrating is that I can regularly produce the same size groups standing free hand as off the bench, which means I can out-shoot the pistol, right? I've researched aftermarket barrel options and they are not inexpensive, and results are not really conclusive either that they help that much. So, the question is, do I send the pistol back to Smith again and hope they hit on some magic, dump the pistol and get into another carry platform, or be okay with that accuracy (really, I'm not).

I began the range session (25yds indoor) with 10 rounds of Speer 124gr Gold Dots from my carry magazine, seated, and supported. Another thing I wanted to determine was the POA/POI relationship with the HD sights and different ammo. Hence, the "cross" to aim at. For all groups, the center of the cross was the POA.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7300/11635376684_4d27e9a46f_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/11635376684/)
124 GDHP (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/11635376684/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

Next, I fired 10 rounds of Federal HST 147gr, note both the windage and elevation shift. You'll see the group move back down and right with lighter loads:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3766/11635238093_87caf31202_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/11635238093/)
147 HST (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/11635238093/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

Then, 10 rounds of Federal American Eagle 147gr:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5529/11635002395_c5829a10ea.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/11635002395/)
147 FAE (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/11635002395/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

And 10 rounds of S&B 115gr (note the group is back down and to the right again)

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/11635240803_a2d5f478ee.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/11635240803/)
115 S&B (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/11635240803/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

I then put up a clean B16 target and with the same methodology I fired a 10-shot supported group using Aguila 124gr FMJ:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7418/11635005115_ca3765fbcb.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/11635005115/)
124 AGUILA (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/11635005115/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

Seeing these results and knowing that I had previously shot similar-sized groups standing, free-hand at 25 yds, I decided to try my luck and shot this, again with the Aguila 124gr:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3805/11635006355_3bd3fd51b4.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/11635006355/)
124 AGUILA FREE (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/11635006355/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

And these are past groups fired from the same pistol setup, 25 yds standing free-hand with Magtech 124gr FMJ:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2805/10897048084_7ccd10154c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10897048084/)
9mm 25yd offhand pre-adjust (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10897048084/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2829/10896951366_fe67237c0a.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10896951366/)
9mm 25yd offhand post-adjust (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10896951366/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3789/10897198513_a1066b370c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10897198513/)
9mm 25yd offhand 5-shot (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10897198513/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

So, what do you make of that? Crappy pistol? Send it back or sell and replace?

I also want to take a pistol class this year, but it seems foolish to spend money for good instruction knowing on the front end that my skill level already supersedes what the pistol is capable of.

Thanks for you input!

Cmm46
12-30-13, 12:19
I would say send the entire gun back one more time along with the pics you've posted here. If it comes back and its still off then try a new gun. If it comes back and its better but not where you'd like I would try an after market barrel. I've read stuff in the past that the m&ps stock barrel isn't that great. I have one in .40 but I haven't analyzed my shots like this to really know for myself. Good luck.

samuse
12-30-13, 13:44
Typical of a POS M&P.

I've played with a few of 'em and I fail to see the attraction.

Apricotshot
12-30-13, 14:50
Same exact thing my 2011 VTAC M&P9 did for me. Unloaded it to someone who I told about the issue and he said, "No big deal. I don't shoot past 15yds anyway." Since 40 is stupid and 45 costs too much and is too big for my hands. I have written off the M&P as being a viable choice for me.

Darkwood1
12-30-13, 19:02
To the OP,

I think there are a lot of factors that decide how accurately one can shoot a pistol. The inherent accuracy of the pistol itself is only one, and the one I see blamed the most.

I've heard of some accuracy issues with early M&P's but have not witnessed this myself. Most folks (and I don't mean you) just can't shoot that well and blame it on the gun. Some days we can shoot the same gun and ammo combination very well and on another day, not as well. (The true test might be to use a Ransom rest or some other vise like rest for a more definitive test) The gun you have for home defense seems to be accurate enough.

The folks that do the tests for the gun magazines typically shoot 5 shot groups to test accuracy. 10 shot groups will surely provide an opportunity to shoot a larger group.

I shot a short video for youtube showing an impromptu range visit to check the accuracy of my M&P9. Mine put 9 rounds into 2 1/2" with the 10th round opening up the group to 3" at 25 yards, in less than ideal conditions. A 5 shot group would most likely have been smaller.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAmqRHq5R1c

nick84
12-30-13, 21:12
I started out a few years ago looking for my "house gun", and an early model M&P9 was on my list. I liked the full capacity, DAO, grip angle preferable to glock (personal gripe), and it seemed fairly reliable. The one in the LGS had night sights (must for me) and a threaded barrel. That kind of sold me because I intended to get a can (never did). This was about 3-4 years ago maybe. Since I have gotten to know my Smith, I'm not as smitten. Trigger seems gritty, but it holds a decent group. Hard for me to compare directly to the OP, as I never shoot off of a bench, and I don't claim to be a maestro either. But as my house gun search evolved, I started from a different point. Instead of asking myself which gun I wanted to use on potential home invaders and troublemakers, I started asking myself what kind of bullets I wanted to shoot them with. That's when I observed what is sort of correlated in the OP: the M&P does not prefer higher grain ammo. With 115 it seems to be ok. With 147 Ranger HP, not so much and not quite as reliable. Obviously, YMMV, not every spring is exactly the same. But to address your general accuracy concerns overall, I just don't think its that good of a weapon.

SkiDevil
12-30-13, 22:58
If you feel inclined to keep the pistols then send it back to S&W or purchse a set of custom aftermarket barrels.

Otherwise, if I was looking for match grade type accuracy out of a polymer framed pistol, then I would purchse an HK P30 or USP variant. Either will shoot more accurately and can be easily set-up to run a can with a factory threaded barrel.

I would just conclude in saying that from the target photos posted most of those listed groups displayed adequate self-defense accuracy.

EvilBetty
12-30-13, 23:35
Your accuracy issues could be caused by many factors. From your fit to the gun / grip, your shooting ability with that gun, the trigger, the barrel lock up, etc.

If you haven't yet, Google "M&P 9 Accuracy" you will find MANY forum threads and articles on the topic.

I have encountered this twice. On one gun it was a very nasty gritting trigger. The sear block had ugly marks on it causing the shooter to unknowingly flinch as the trigger bar grinded across the sear block. Sear block was replaced with a APEX USB and the groups shrank considerably.

The other gun was an early M&P 9L that had a lockup issue. The barrel was replaced by S&W on the 3rd return and groups were improved.

Others I've heard of were cured with heavier recoil springs.

Have you had anyone who claims to be proficient with an M&P shoot it? Have you been able to shoot other M&P's well?

Apricotshot
12-31-13, 07:17
This is a known issue with M&Ps in 9mm produced in the last few years. Some may be fine others are horrid. I'm not sure about the most recent ones though.

Psalms144.1
12-31-13, 07:33
I hate to read threads like this, primarily because I KNOW how freaking frustrating it can be when you have a pistol you love that just won't do what it's supposed to. Secondly, I can't stand listening to the "it's not the pistol, it's YOU" responses from people who get butthurt that someone says "boo" about their personal favorite pistol. Especially when the OP posts photographic evidence in the begining of the thread showing that he knows how to shoot an M&P9. I mean, this isn't Glocktalk, is it? I expect a little higher level of professionalism on M4C...

Ash - my confusion is this. You say this barrel & guts worked well in another frame. Why swap to the current frame? I'd put it all back in the old frame; if it shoots to standard in that frame, problem solved (less the cost of stippling). We are talking about $400 mass-produced polymer pistols here - consistency from sample to sample isn't likely to be that close that you can swap major components without getting strange results...

Best of luck!

ASH556
12-31-13, 08:50
I hate to read threads like this, primarily because I KNOW how freaking frustrating it can be when you have a pistol you love that just won't do what it's supposed to. Secondly, I can't stand listening to the "it's not the pistol, it's YOU" responses from people who get butthurt that someone says "boo" about their personal favorite pistol. Especially when the OP posts photographic evidence in the begining of the thread showing that he knows how to shoot an M&P9. I mean, this isn't Glocktalk, is it? I expect a little higher level of professionalism on M4C...

Ash - my confusion is this. You say this barrel & guts worked well in another frame. Why swap to the current frame? I'd put it all back in the old frame; if it shoots to standard in that frame, problem solved (less the cost of stippling). We are talking about $400 mass-produced polymer pistols here - consistency from sample to sample isn't likely to be that close that you can swap major components without getting strange results...

Best of luck!

Thank you for this reply! I appreciate someone actually reading the post, long as it may be, and understanding what's happening instead of offering input without understanding the situation first!
The reason for the internals swapping was due to stippling on my buddy's frame. Here is a pic, it was large golf ball style stippling and I absolutely hated it, thus I didn't want to keep it no matter how well it shot. The current frame was un-stippled at the time. I then had some very fine stippling similar to the CORE guns put on the front strap and backstrap only. Worlds different. The golf ball stippled frame was sold a month ago, so going back to it is not an option.

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/20130806_192035.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3829/11668951226_3b4aee8ed1_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/11668951226/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/11668951226/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

KevinB
12-31-13, 09:02
You can always re-stipple the original frame - one nice thing about stippling, is that you can re-do it easily.

rjacobs
12-31-13, 10:47
My opinion on why the 147's shoot to a higher POI is that you MAY have a slight early unlock issue that these guns are known for. My gun DEFINITELY shows it, but a fast 115g solves the problem I believe because it exits the barrel just SLIGHTLY before it unlocks. 124g is worse. 147g is terrible.

Keeping a fresh recoil spring in the gun helps eliminate the issue in my particular gun.

Your targets are showing this exact phenomenon.

C4IGrant
12-31-13, 10:59
Typical of a POS M&P.

I've played with a few of 'em and I fail to see the attraction.

The older ones have had some serious accuracy issues. The latest batches have greatly improved barrels. Your aren't going to get 2" groups out of $425 dollar pistol (though miracles do happen), but they are combat accurate and will produce 3-4" groups pretty easily.



C4

C4IGrant
12-31-13, 11:06
OP, my professional opinion is that your barrel is unlocking early and is why you are not getting a group, but a pattern. This is why you can shoot one group and it will be pretty good and the next will be way off. The clue is when you see a group and then get 1-3 gross flyers that really open up the group. In some instances it can be crappy ammo, but if you are using good stuff, you won't see it as much.


So here is what I would do. Get a feeler gauge and check the space between the barrel hood and the slide. This will tell us everything. If the space is more than .003-.004, I would send it back to S&W.


We are going to order a bunch of the new S&W factory barrel (with the 1/10 twist) and when they come in, you can send your slide to us and I will go through each one till I find a good fit.

For the record, I also see poor fitting (read loose) barrels on Glock's. The difference though is that Glock's don't show the shotgun "pattern", they just shoot EXTREMELY high at 15-25yds (like 6-12 inches)! Most people never discover this because, well they either can't shoot (and wouldn't know if they have an accurate pistol or not) or don't ever shoot past 15yds.




C4

Psalms144.1
12-31-13, 11:53
Ash - again, I'd put the barrel and guts back in that ugly frame, and see if it still shoots. If it does, re-stipple the ugly frame and be happy!

ralph
12-31-13, 11:54
Grant;
Does it make any difference if the slide is on the frame or not? just out of curiosity, I tried this with my P-30 (slide on frame) and couldn't get a feeler gage in.. It's that tight..

ASH556
12-31-13, 12:05
So here is what I would do. Get a feeler gauge and check the space between the barrel hood and the slide. This will tell us everything. If the space is more than .003-.004, I would send it back to S&W.


C4

Thanks Grant! I just checked with a feeler gauge....005 goes in the gap easily enough, .006 is tight. Either way, we're outside the .003-.004 range. This is a single dimple barrel replaced by S&W in Oct of this year, FWIW.

I've got an e-mail into Smith as of yesterday, but I imagine they're closed for the holidays. Maybe by the end of January I can have an accurate pistol up and running. I was VERY tempted to trade it for an FNS I found yesterday, but in messing with the M&P some more today, I love the ergos, sights, and everything else...just need to get the accuracy up to snuff.

ASH556
12-31-13, 12:06
Ash - again, I'd put the barrel and guts back in that ugly frame, and see if it still shoots. If it does, re-stipple the ugly frame and be happy!

I don't have the ugly frame...it was sold a month ago.

JimmyB62
12-31-13, 12:07
OP-I think the best solution is to live with it until Grant gets his barrels in, then let him hand pick for fit. You can send it back to S&W and maybe get lucky. The former route is more expensive but having been where you are now, I would pay the extra $$ to reduce my frustration level. No, you shouldn't have to but sometimes things just suck.

ralph
12-31-13, 12:37
OP-I think the best solution is to live with it until Grant gets his barrels in, then let him hand pick for fit. You can send it back to S&W and maybe get lucky. The former route is more expensive but having been where you are now, I would pay the extra $$ to reduce my frustration level. No, you shouldn't have to but sometimes things just suck.

^ This. Chances are if you send it back to S&W, they'll just pick a barrel out of the bin and slap it in, and call it a day. Grant will take the time to try to find one that fits as close as possible.

C4IGrant
12-31-13, 12:56
Grant;
Does it make any difference if the slide is on the frame or not? just out of curiosity, I tried this with my P-30 (slide on frame) and couldn't get a feeler gage in.. It's that tight..

I always remove the slide from the frame (along with the guide rod assembly).


C4

C4IGrant
12-31-13, 12:57
Thanks Grant! I just checked with a feeler gauge....005 goes in the gap easily enough, .006 is tight. Either way, we're outside the .003-.004 range. This is a single dimple barrel replaced by S&W in Oct of this year, FWIW.

I've got an e-mail into Smith as of yesterday, but I imagine they're closed for the holidays. Maybe by the end of January I can have an accurate pistol up and running. I was VERY tempted to trade it for an FNS I found yesterday, but in messing with the M&P some more today, I love the ergos, sights, and everything else...just need to get the accuracy up to snuff.

Ya, that is about what I was expecting based off your group size.


C4

bfk4lyfe
12-31-13, 13:10
For the record, I also see poor fitting (read loose) barrels on Glock's. The difference though is that Glock's don't show the shotgun "pattern", they just shoot EXTREMELY high at 15-25yds (like 6-12 inches)! Most people never discover this because, well they either can't shoot (and wouldn't know if they have an accurate pistol or not) or don't ever shoot past 15yds.

C4

Grant,

My G4 G19 does this at distance, I assumed it was the cheap Freedom Munitions ammo I've been using until I read this. Will an aftermarket barrel fix this or do I need to send it back to Glock?

ASH556
12-31-13, 13:15
Ya, that is about what I was expecting based off your group size.


C4

Thanks for the confirmation Grant. I know MFR's don't give ETA's, but based on your conversation with S&W when you ordered the barrels, what sort of timeframe do you anticipate on the barrels? Spring, Summer, Fall, etc?

Thanks again for your help!

Darkwood1
12-31-13, 13:16
Ya, that is about what I was expecting based off your group size.


C4

Grant, I've followed a number of your posts and it seems that you know quite a bit about this issue. Just out of curiosity, I checked my barrel to hood / slide fit and mine is between .006" and .007". The .006 feeler gauge slips right in and the .007 is a bit too tight to fit. My M&P will shoot a 3" (10 shot) group at 25 yards with me at the controls and as I said in the video I posted, I don't shoot bullseye, just USPSA / IDPA. Do you suppose there are other factors at work here in regards to this accuracy issue as well?

Respectfully submitted.

PS:, I love the PRO I-Dot sights I bought from you.

okie john
12-31-13, 13:25
OP, thank you for documenting your tests and posting actual evidence that can help us answer your questions. You’re uncovering problems by shooting 10-shot groups at 25 yards, which is rare. You’re also bringing rigor into the search for answers about pistol accuracy, which is even more rare.

These groups are not horrible for an inexpensive pistol with a factory barrel. I’ll defer to Grant and others on mechanical issues, but I will say that I see four perfectly normal things going on that might make your troubles seem worse than they are.

The first is that few stock barrels shoot well with a variety of ammo—even good ammo. They usually favor one or two loads or a carefully tuned handload. Replacing one stock barrel with another might change which loads the gun prefers, but it won’t change the fact that it only shoots a few loads well. A well-fitted match barrel will usually shoot superbly with a few loads and better than a stock barrel with more loads. (In this, I’d definitely look to Grant for answers. He seems to have figured out the aftermarket M&P barrel thing.) In any case, the groups you’ve shown are about right for FMJ training ammo at 25 yards.

The second is that not all factory FMJ ammo is created equal. Some of it will make the gun go bang and cycle the action, but it won’t group well. You’ve tested six loads here, so you’re just getting started on finding which one your pistol shoots best.

The third is that different loads (in your case, assorted 115-, 124-, and 147-grain bullets with different bearing surface lengths at various velocities) nearly always have different POIs. In my experience, it’s rare for any firearm to put different bullet weights into the same groups. Most light pistol bullets hit low and most heavy ones hit high, while most heavy rifle bullets hit low and most light ones hit high. As I said, the groups you’ve shown are about right for FMJ training ammo at 25 yards, but the POI shifts between loads are also within the norm. The solution is to find one load that your pistol shoots well, buy it in bulk (say 10k rounds), zero for it, and shoot nothing else. This problem will go away until you switch loads.

Fourth is that your testing methods and technique could skew your results. If you shot these tests on the same day without a break, then hand fatigue and eye strain are probably a factor, especially if you’re not used to sitting down and shooting repeated long strings for accuracy. The red flag is that you get the same size groups offhand that you do from the bench. That could mean that you’re outshooting the pistol. Or it could mean that your bench technique needs work. To solve for this, shoot the same tests several times over several days and look for trends. Then you’ll have enough of a sample size to define the problem more clearly and know you’re not looking at flukes. Also, keep detailed records of your tests and of everything you do on the range. Looking back through my notes has saved me a lot of time when I’m trying to solve problems.


We know a lot about how to make 1911’s shoot, but we're just getting started with polymer-framed handguns. As Grant pointed out, there’s the issue of how well the barrel fits in the slide. I think locking blocks matter, but I can’t say how just yet. Oddly enough, people like us are on the cutting edge of getting all of this figured out, so keep us posted. The work you're doing matters.


Okie John

C4IGrant
12-31-13, 13:37
Grant,

My G4 G19 does this at distance, I assumed it was the cheap Freedom Munitions ammo I've been using until I read this. Will an aftermarket barrel fix this or do I need to send it back to Glock?

A drop in barrel MIGHT fix it, but it really depends on the fit (as you need a tighter fitting barrel than what you have). I would get a feeler gauge and double check the fit.




C4

C4IGrant
12-31-13, 13:40
Grant, I've followed a number of your posts and it seems that you know quite a bit about this issue. Just out of curiosity, I checked my barrel to hood / slide fit and mine is between .006" and .007". The .006 feeler gauge slips right in and the .007 is a bit too tight to fit. My M&P will shoot a 3" (10 shot) group at 25 yards with me at the controls and as I said in the video I posted, I don't shoot bullseye, just USPSA / IDPA. Do you suppose there are other factors at work here in regards to this accuracy issue as well?

Respectfully submitted.

PS:, I love the PRO I-Dot sights I bought from you.

Honestly that would be a miracle (unless you are measuring incorrectly). My guess is that the ammo you are shooting is maybe a bit long and actually locking the gun up tighter than it would normally would be. Hard to say without having it in my hands.

There are other factors involved (locking block, etc), but they do not matter as much as the fit between the hood and the slide.

Edit: I watched the Video and see that you are shooting your reloads. This is my guess as to why you are getting what you are. Get some bulk ammo and try again.


C4

Darkwood1
12-31-13, 14:06
Honestly that would be a miracle (unless you are measuring incorrectly). My guess is that the ammo you are shooting is maybe a bit long and actually locking the gun up tighter than it would normally would be. Hard to say without having it in my hands.

There are other factors involved (locking block, etc), but they do not matter as much as the fit between the hood and the slide.

Edit: I watched the Video and see that you are shooting your reloads. This is my guess as to why you are getting what you are. Get some bulk ammo and try again.


C4

Hello Grant, I measured the barrel to hood fit the way you described, with the slide off the gun and recoil spring removed.

After reading your response, I decided to check my ammo as I see your point that it may have been loaded long. I loaded a round that I shoot into the barrel and put it in the slide, disassembled from the gun and without the recoil spring installed. I remeasured and the results were the same. The bullet is not touching the rifling either.

I didn't mean to call your expertise into question. My posts here are an honest and factual account of my experience with this issue. I shot this video as well without doctoring the results and in less than ideal conditions. Perhaps there are additional factors at work here that play into the accuracy issue with the M&P's. (locking block, rifling ect) The OP mentioned the same slide assembly shot better on his other frame and this would lend credibility to my thoughts.


Respectfully submitted,
Eric

C4IGrant
12-31-13, 14:36
Hello Grant, I measured the barrel to hood fit the way you described, with the slide off the gun and recoil spring removed.

After reading your response, I decided to check my ammo as I see your point that it may have been loaded long. I loaded a round that I shoot into the barrel and put it in the slide, disassembled from the gun and without the recoil spring installed. I remeasured and the results were the same. The bullet is not touching the rifling either.

I didn't mean to call your expertise into question. My posts here are an honest and factual account of my experience with this issue. I shot this video as well without doctoring the results and in less than ideal conditions. Perhaps there are additional factors at work here that play into the accuracy issue with the M&P's. (locking block, rifling ect) The OP mentioned the same slide assembly shot better on his other frame and this would lend credibility to my thoughts.


Respectfully submitted,
Eric

To be honest, I have years of diagnosing bad barrels and fitting new ones in. So there is nothing incorrect with what I am saying. Without actually having your slide in my hand, it is hard for me to validate the measurement that you are making + checking the ammo.

Yes, there are about five main things that directly affect accuracy. They are (ranked in importance):

1. Barrel hood to slide fit.
2. Quality of ammo used.
3. Locking block fit.
4. Crown.
5. Fit of the end of the bar into the end of the slide.


As I said, get some bulk ammo (115gr WW or something similar) and report back how it goes. My guess is that your reloads are giving you the better results (assuming all your numbers are correct).


C4

Darkwood1
12-31-13, 14:48
To be honest, I have years of diagnosing bad barrels and fitting new ones in. So there is nothing incorrect with what I am saying. Without actually having your slide in my hand, it is hard for me to validate the measurement that you are making + checking the ammo.

Yes, there are about five main things that directly affect accuracy. They are (ranked in importance):

1. Barrel hood to slide fit.
2. Quality of ammo used.
3. Locking block fit.
4. Crown.
5. Fit of the end of the bar into the end of the slide.


As I said, get some bulk ammo (115gr WW or something similar) and report back how it goes. My guess is that your reloads are giving you the better results (assuming all your numbers are correct).


C4

Roger that,I will try some other ammo.

Thank you Grant.

Respectfully submitted,
Eric

C4IGrant
12-31-13, 14:50
To the OP,

I think there are a lot of factors that decide how accurately one can shoot a pistol. The inherent accuracy of the pistol itself is only one, and the one I see blamed the most.

I've heard of some accuracy issues with early M&P's but have not witnessed this myself. Most folks (and I don't mean you) just can't shoot that well and blame it on the gun. Some days we can shoot the same gun and ammo combination very well and on another day, not as well. (The true test might be to use a Ransom rest or some other vise like rest for a more definitive test) The gun you have for home defense seems to be accurate enough.

The folks that do the tests for the gun magazines typically shoot 5 shot groups to test accuracy. 10 shot groups will surely provide an opportunity to shoot a larger group.

I shot a short video for youtube showing an impromptu range visit to check the accuracy of my M&P9. Mine put 9 rounds into 2 1/2" with the 10th round opening up the group to 3" at 25 yards, in less than ideal conditions. A 5 shot group would most likely have been smaller.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAmqRHq5R1c


I have a ransom rest and have validated the horrible accuracy. So yes, the claims people are making are accurate.

Watching your video (in full this time), I noticed that you are applying pressure to the dust cover or accessory rail. This can GREATLY influence groups (good and bad) as you are bending the frame. I would shoot some more groups WITHOUT touching the front of your frame.



C4

shutup&shoot
12-31-13, 15:01
Grant, what is your personal opinion on the chances of getting a "bad" M&P? I'm in the market and would like to see how many of the troubled guns you have personally seen. This may steer me to a different purchase.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

C4IGrant
12-31-13, 15:17
Grant, what is your personal opinion on the chances of getting a "bad" M&P? I'm in the market and would like to see how many of the troubled guns you have personally seen. This may steer me to a different purchase.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

It is hard for me to say how many old M&P's are out there.

What I do know is that the M&P's we have in stock are all new and have all the most current parts in them. Everyone of them that I have looked at had a good slide to barrel fit.


C4

shutup&shoot
12-31-13, 16:49
Thanks Grant, makes me feel better about picking one up. If I decide to go that route I'll be ordering one from you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Djstorm100
12-31-13, 19:06
Grant, I've followed a number of your posts and it seems that you know quite a bit about this issue. Just out of curiosity, I checked my barrel to hood / slide fit and mine is between .006" and .007". The .006 feeler gauge slips right in and the .007 is a bit too tight to fit. My M&P will shoot a 3" (10 shot) group at 25 yards with me at the controls and as I said in the video I posted, I don't shoot bullseye, just USPSA / IDPA. Do you suppose there are other factors at work here in regards to this accuracy issue as well?

Respectfully submitted.

PS:, I love the PRO I-Dot sights I bought from you.

Hey are your measuring the hood with the slide on the frame or slide off with the barrel "locked" in battery?

Darkwood1
12-31-13, 21:21
Hey are your measuring the hood with the slide on the frame or slide off with the barrel "locked" in battery?

I am measuring the "hood gap" with the slide off the frame with the barrel in battery and no recoil spring in place.

PatrioticDisorder
12-31-13, 23:17
To be honest, I have years of diagnosing bad barrels and fitting new ones in. So there is nothing incorrect with what I am saying. Without actually having your slide in my hand, it is hard for me to validate the measurement that you are making + checking the ammo.

Yes, there are about five main things that directly affect accuracy. They are (ranked in importance):

1. Barrel hood to slide fit.
2. Quality of ammo used.
3. Locking block fit.
4. Crown.
5. Fit of the end of the bar into the end of the slide.


As I said, get some bulk ammo (115gr WW or something similar) and report back how it goes. My guess is that your reloads are giving you the better results (assuming all your numbers are correct).


C4

Dare I add

6. Shooter variablity

C4IGrant
01-01-14, 09:09
Dare I add

6. Shooter variablity

LOL, well yes. Number "7" would be sights. Most "combat" sights are pretty much setup for 15yds and in. So getting any kind of real groups at 25yds is super hard. Case in point, with our fitted barrels and a Trijicon RM08, I could routinely shoot UNDER 1" groups (with Magtech FMJ). When I tried the same setup with "combat" sights, the group opened up to 2-2.5.



C4

bfk4lyfe
01-01-14, 16:21
Very dumb and untechnical question, when talking about the gap, is it the space in this attached pic at the left most spot where the silver meets the black? (couldn't find an m&p picture online) And would you push the barrel all the way forward to make the gap the biggest when you measure it?

http://www.kaneohegs.com/images/glock_storm_lake_barrel_conversions_40_to_9_a.jpg

orlanger
01-01-14, 23:37
I always remove the slide from the frame (along with the guide rod assembly).
C4

I get .008 on the feeler gauge when doing just this and measuring between the breach face of the slide and barrel. My M&P9 has a test fire date of 11/28/2012 and a two dimple barrel. Accuracy is +4" @ 25 yds. What do you suggest Grant?

C4IGrant
01-02-14, 08:32
I get .008 on the feeler gauge when doing just this and measuring between the breach face of the slide and barrel. My M&P9 has a test fire date of 11/28/2012 and a two dimple barrel. Accuracy is +4" @ 25 yds. What do you suggest Grant?

Call ups S&W and complain about poor accuracy. At the very least, this should get you the newer barrel.



C4

PLCedeno
01-02-14, 14:33
Typical of a POS M&P.

I've played with a few of 'em and I fail to see the attraction.

Finally someone has said it.

T2C
01-02-14, 14:42
Call ups S&W and complain about poor accuracy. At the very least, this should get you the newer barrel.



C4

With a new barrel, will this problem develop again over time as the pistol wears? How many rounds would it take?

ASH556
01-02-14, 15:37
Very dumb and untechnical question, when talking about the gap, is it the space in this attached pic at the left most spot where the silver meets the black? (couldn't find an m&p picture online) And would you push the barrel all the way forward to make the gap the biggest when you measure it?

http://www.kaneohegs.com/images/glock_storm_lake_barrel_conversions_40_to_9_a.jpg

No, the other gap on the right side of the barrel where it meets the slide.

Djstorm100
01-02-14, 15:58
No, the other gap on the right side of the barrel where it meets the slide.



Here?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v512/Djstorm100/IMG_1806_zps61bc8277.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Djstorm100/media/IMG_1806_zps61bc8277.jpg.html)






See I was thinking of the rear of the barrel hood...some call it the lug.
Example: http://www.realguns.com/images/brlhdsldintfr.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/2463no6.jpg

ASH556
01-02-14, 16:03
Here?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v512/Djstorm100/IMG_1806_zps61bc8277.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Djstorm100/media/IMG_1806_zps61bc8277.jpg.html)






Yeah, that's my understanding.

C4IGrant
01-02-14, 16:06
With a new barrel, will this problem develop again over time as the pistol wears? How many rounds would it take?

I would not think so as Melonite is STUPID hard. So getting either slide or the barrel to "loosen" over time is nearly impossible I think.


C4

C4IGrant
01-02-14, 16:07
Here?

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Djstorm100/media/IMG_1806_zps61bc8277.jpg.html



No. I measure the front of the barrel.



C4

C4IGrant
01-02-14, 16:10
Finally someone has said it.

Doesn't mean that it is actually true (especially if they are look the older M&P's).



C4

Djstorm100
01-02-14, 19:05
No. I measure the front of the barrel.



C4



Would you happen to have a picture? I'm confused base on the earlier post.

C4IGrant
01-03-14, 08:55
Would you happen to have a picture? I'm confused base on the earlier post.

I do not (sorry).


C4

Djstorm100
01-03-14, 10:20
I do not (sorry).


C4

No problem Grant,

Could you maybe elaberate on how you measured it then? I have 12' production MP and think I'm suffering from the same thing. Reading your post here


So here is what I would do. Get a feeler gauge and check the space between the barrel hood and the slide. This will tell us everything. If the space is more than .003-.004, I would send it back to S&W.

C4

and then stating that you measure the front of the barrel is what confused me. Sorry if I'm over thinking this, just trying to learn and understand.

C4IGrant
01-03-14, 10:44
No problem Grant,

Could you maybe elaberate on how you measured it then? I have 12' production MP and think I'm suffering from the same thing. Reading your post here


and then stating that you measure the front of the barrel is what confused me. Sorry if I'm over thinking this, just trying to learn and understand.

I leave the barrel in its natural resting position. Meaning that I do not push it forward or pull it backwards (easy to mess with the results if you do). On the barrel, there is a hole to see if the gun is loaded. There is where I stick the feeler gauge in at.


C4

G-lock
01-05-14, 13:05
Checked both of my full size M&P's, one is an older 4' inch Pro series and it gauges at .003, my 2011 FDE with a factory threaded barrel is .002 and my Compact is sitting at .001. I've only noticed what I would call accuracy issues with the Pro with crappy slow reloads, my practice/target ammo of choice is S&B 115gr. which it shoots well, but that is a pretty snappy loading.

I'll have to shoot them for group when I get a chance to validate.

ASH556
01-31-14, 15:13
Well, those losers at Smith returned my other pistol with nothing done to it! Just got it back today. I called pretty upset and was basically told, "we shoot it in a ransom rest and it shoots to spec" but with no definition of spec. I escalated it to a "supervisor" who promised me another label today. I expressed frustration with having to send it back a third time. They've had it twice already and done nothing to fix it, why should the third time be any different? He gave me a name to mark it to the attn of. Even so, why make a customer raise all kinds of hell and send the pistol back a third time? Even the principle of the matter pisses me off. I really want the M&P to work for me, so I took both to the range on my lunch break hoping to find some new magic or something. The results were dismal:

Here's the one I just got back from Smith & Wesson, 25yds, Benched, 124gr Aguila, 10 rnds, 5" "group" (more of a scattering):

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7290/12240121276_a2d7297992_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/12240121276/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/12240121276/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

And my other "good" M&P at 25yds, Benched, 124gr Aguila, 10 rnds, 5" group (much tighter windage despite the vertical stringing):

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3679/12239730123_c3c958a305_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/12239730123/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/12239730123/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

Then, a gent next to me had a pair of Glock 19's he was doing some GSSF practice with. One of them had an RMR on it (not for GSSF). He was kind enough to let me shoot both. One was a Gen 3 with TFO's and the Gen 4 had the RMR (7MOA adjustable).

GEN 3 Glock 19, TFO's, 25yds benched, 124gr Aguila, 10 shots, 3.75" group (disregard the .22 holes):

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5513/12239956014_4fa6417fb5_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/12239956014/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/12239956014/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

Gen 4 Glock 19, RMR 7MOA, 25yds benched, 124gr Aguila, 10 shots, 3.75" group:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2844/12239727643_092837812b_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/12239727643/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/12239727643/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

This next pic really demonstrates the disparity between my two M&P pistols. 147gr Federal American Eagle, 25yds benched, 5 shots each, POA was the blue line "7" ring:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5513/12240124356_ffde0ba3c1_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/12240124356/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/12240124356/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

RWH24
01-31-14, 22:38
Your M&P have Parkinson's Disease? :dirol:

harm
01-31-14, 23:46
Out of curiosity - are you shooting them with or without the lights attached?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

ralph
02-01-14, 08:13
Ash556:

You're going down a road that a lot of people (myself included) have already traveled.. and you've came to the same fork in the road.. The way I see it, you've got two choices here, Get on Grant's list for a fitted, SL barrel or sell your M&P's, take a hit, and move on to something else. The type of accuracy you're getting is why I gave up on mine. I liked the M&P, it had good ergo's, and was reliable. But until S&W does something like hire some people who actually know how to shoot, (like say, LAV, Ken Hackathorn, etc) and take their advice, and act on it, I don't expect much to change with the M&P's.. They are what they are.. If you send your pistol in again, Don't expect a magical change when it comes back, If I'm not mistaken S&W test fires at 15yds, and give themselves a generous accuracy spec, if it meets that spec, then, as far as they're concerned, there's nothing wrong with it. If you want better accuracy then you'll have to do what I mentioned above, invest more money in a SL barrel from Grant, which will deliver stunning accuracy, or sell and move on. It all depends on if you think investing more into the M&P's are worth it or not.

Tiny Killer Robot
02-02-14, 02:20
I like the ergo's on the M&P 9, but the one I tried was a flat out dog. I did try a M&P 45 that grouped in less than half the size of the M&P 9.
Faced with the prospect of spinning the wheel and hoping for a decent one with a good chance of dumping more money in a new pistol, I just stayed with my G17.
I am likely to pick up an M&P in the future.

C4IGrant
02-02-14, 13:27
I like the ergo's on the M&P 9, but the one I tried was a flat out dog. I did try a M&P 45 that grouped in less than half the size of the M&P 9.
Faced with the prospect of spinning the wheel and hoping for a decent one with a good chance of dumping more money in a new pistol, I just stayed with my G17.
I am likely to pick up an M&P in the future.

The latest production with the newer twist rates are much more accurate than the older barrels. If you buy an M&P from us, I just about guarantee that it will be able to shoot 3-4"" groups @ 25yds (or better) with 115gr bulk 9mm.



C4

ASH556
02-02-14, 18:57
The latest production with the newer twist rates are much more accurate than the older barrels. If you buy an M&P from us, I just about guarantee that it will be able to shoot 3-4"" groups @ 25yds (or better) with 115gr bulk 9mm.



C4
What about 147gr?

RWH24
02-02-14, 20:07
What about 147gr?
My M&P 9 I just got from Grant last month, 147gr shot better than the 115gr. This was the very first time to the range with the gun. 15 yds IIRC

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1321/4777050/9916512/408515796.jpg

samuse
02-03-14, 08:23
My M&P 9 I just got from Grant last month, 147gr shot better than the 115gr. This was the very first time to the range with the gun. 15 yds IIRC

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1321/4777050/9916512/408515796.jpg


That's some funny shit right there!

C4IGrant
02-03-14, 08:47
What about 147gr?

No issues. The new twist rate is the same as what Glock uses.


C4