View Full Version : Green Eyes Black Rifles Book
Amp Mangum
01-29-08, 07:55
Kyle Lamb's new book "Green Eyes and Black Rifles" is out. A ton of info on shooting and maintaining the AR. www.vikingtactics.com/book.html
I have it and am very impressed. Pat Rogers calls it a "must have" FWIW.
Very good so far. Worth the money.
Great book, and an easy read. Lots of stuff in there to practice...
It's interesting to note how different trainers approach things. For example, Pat Rogers advocates for lower 1/3 co-witness with dot optics (his point is that absolute co-witness tends to slow things down because of our instinctive tendency to try to align the irons and the dot) and very much prefers Aimpoints over Eotechs, whereas Kyle Lamb likes absolute co-witness with the front sight to decrease group sizes and prefers Eotechs for their speed and robustness. I guess in the end, it comes down to trying various techniques and tools and seeing what works best for you.
I can't imagine anyone referring to "robustness" of an Eotech. :confused:
I just ordered two copies of the book myself.
I can't imagine anyone referring to "robustness" of an Eotech. :confused:
I just ordered two copies of the book myself.
Kyle has a photo in the book of an Eotech with a bullet hole in the sight window, but that is still usable because the reticle is still visible in the corner. He does mention that the 553's ARMS levers are not the greatest...
I've got one on order too. Looks like another great reference book for my library!
Looks like another great reference book for my library!
For those of us who are fairly new to the AR platform - what would be a few additional books to add to our growing library????
TIA
jm
I can't imagine anyone referring to "robustness" of an Eotech. :confused:
Neither could I, but it seems the Delta guys like them. I've met several post 9/11 Delta guys and all were big on the Eotech instead of the Aimpoint - I would have thought they'd have prefered the Aimpoint instead.
FlyAndFight
02-07-08, 15:58
Just ordered the book.
Looking forward to reading it.
Jay Cunningham
02-07-08, 16:47
I have this book. So far lots of good info but if you have several carbine classes under your belt it will pretty much just be a review. As with all trainers, KL has his own take on certain things, but other TTP's are universal.
GLOCKMASTER
02-07-08, 19:11
I ordered mine on Monday. I hoping it will be here tomorrow.
MadcapMagician
02-07-08, 19:14
Excellent book. Has something for everyone. A must have for anybody that runs an AR type.
BushmasterFanBoy
02-07-08, 20:20
Kyle has a photo in the book of an Eotech with a bullet hole in the sight window, but that is still usable because the reticle is still visible in the corner. He does mention that the 553's ARMS levers are not the greatest...
I used to think my Eotech was crappier than my Aimpoint, that was of course til I examined one by being able to poke my pinkie through a hole in the glass and still see the reticule in the part that was left. Now thats durable. Out of curiosity, can an Aimpoint do the same? (not shit stirring, just never saw that feature marketed by Aimpoint, I'm a proud owner of both)
Besides, what durabilty edge does an Aimpoint have over a Hooded Eotech? (rev. F) I can't think of much, other than the Eotechs polymer battery compartment. I've heard rumors that the thumbnut comes loose, but I've never had it happen to me (I probably tighten it more than the avg. user though)
Anyways, is this book worth the price? Any good info/pics?:D
I am going to order Kyle's book as well. I have heard it's a good read. Can't wait for a review of it posted here.
Robb Jensen
02-07-08, 21:07
I can't imagine anyone referring to "robustness" of an Eotech. :confused:
I don't know about you but I've been neither a SF guy or Delta guy (I've never been in the military) so I don't question their choices........But like Kyle I'm my experience with a timer I do find that the EOTech is faster only a few 1/100ths of a second faster but it is faster. And as Travis Haley (SimplyDynamic) says "Time is Life!
Rmplstlskn
02-07-08, 21:24
Anyone want to loan me the book... I'll pay the Media Mail shipping both ways...
If I like it, I'll buy one...
Rmpl
gotm4
But like Kyle I'm my experience with a timer I do find that the EOTech is faster only a few 1/100ths of a second faster but it is faster. And as Travis Haley (SimplyDynamic) says "Time is Life!
__________________
I never bought into that claim simply because of the common variable which is the shooter.
A good shooter is going to be pretty much equal regardless of which sight, especially if you time Hundreds of shooters with both sights.
I also hear the same thing in regards to the EOTech having a larger field of view. It's just not so... one eye is looking at the target, one eye on the reticle... the shape of the housing is irrelevant. You focusing on the reticle, not the housing and your other eye is looking at the target.
David Thomas
02-07-08, 21:32
Anyone want to loan me the book... I'll pay the Media Mail shipping both ways...
If I like it, I'll buy one...
Rmpl
Just buy it. You will like it.
Matt Edwards
02-07-08, 22:41
Of interest (?)
I own an EO but do not have much experiance with it as I was issued a 68. However, the Eo vs Aim point issue is very interesting. I'm tracking that most seem to be on the side of the AP. I know Larry perfers it to the Eo. I have been able to train with some guys who were from that particular unit. Their seems to be a strong preferance toward the Eo. Our local "guys" also have a strong preferance for it. I talked to one the yesterday and asked him how they were holding up. He looked at me like my hair was on fire.
Although I havent been able to pin it down, and also using Lamb's book as a referance, It seems to be popular due to the "small" dot (1 MOA) which can help in accuracy("trying to superimpose this large dot {aimpoint} on a 300yd target head was frustrating"-KL), and, as per the guys that were here about a year ago(Jim Smith and some others I'm sure some of you know but shall remain nameless), the 65 moa circle can assist with range E. I'm not compatant enough to take advantage of that, but I'm sure the "small" dot helps.
One shooter put it this way. The 68 is like a Glock. It runs when mistreated and tends to be a little more "Joe" proof. The Eo is like a 1911. Not as "Joe" proof and requiers a little more care, but with a skilled shooter who can take advantage of it, it has some advantages.
Thoughts?
PS- The 552 I own was "free". I told this to Lav and his responce was classic..."Well...give it back for free."
Kyle's book is the best I have read on the broad subject for the employment of the rifle. It has been needed for a long time as unfortunately we have been bombarded with "trainers" that do not have the experience, base of knowledge and quite frankly the skill to speak at the level of which they have been allowed to.
It does not go into great detail as for as techniques go, more of a general over view. Several things written in it will not sit too well with a lot of the "tactical" trainers.
Here is another shooters view on it. http://http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001116
There is indeed a measurable difference in speed between "tube" sights like the Aimpoint and sights such as the Eotech, just like there is a measurable difference between RDS’s and 1-4x scopes. The more "tube'ish" an optic is- the slower it is to use. Whether ones skill level allows them to realize it, is the question. If someone is running 1 to 1.5 second one shot drills at 7 yards, any advantage is "lost in the noise" so to speak. However if one is in the .4-.5 of a second range, it is very noticeable.
Jay Cunningham
02-07-08, 22:58
Keep in mind, even with KL's experience, his is still "A" way, not "the" way. He'll probably be the first to say that.
Keep in mind, even with KL's experience, his is still "A" way, not "the" way. He'll probably be the first to say that.
Sure. However, would one say that isosceles is a way, or the way to shoot a pistol? Similarly, an aggressive stance (some claim it's "bladed"), forend hand gripping as far forward as possible, etc, are not theories. They are proven by the timer. Just as the timer proves that isosceles is superior too weaver.
Of interest (?)
One shooter put it this way. The 68 is like a Glock. It runs when mistreated and tends to be a little more "Joe" proof. The Eo is like a 1911. Not as "Joe" proof and requiers a little more care, but with a skilled shooter who can take advantage of it, it has some advantages.
That is exactly the comparison that should be made. I have said that for some time, and I would use either in the same instance I would choose to use the counterpoint in pistols. Just like a Glock is better for 99% of users, so is the Aimpoint.
Robb Jensen
02-08-08, 05:53
gotm4
I never bought into that claim simply because of the common variable which is the shooter.
A good shooter is going to be pretty much equal regardless of which sight, especially if you time Hundreds of shooters with both sights.
I also hear the same thing in regards to the EOTech having a larger field of view. It's just not so... one eye is looking at the target, one eye on the reticle... the shape of the housing is irrelevant. You focusing on the reticle, not the housing and your other eye is looking at the target.
In my case it was the same shooter (me), same carbine (mine), 15yds from target (IPSC target, only A zone hits count), 10 one shot strings of fire from a low ready (safety off - to eliminate shooter error) with each optic (throw out worst time from each optic, add the other nine and divide by nine).
I'm guessing the eye/brain 'sees' all the red (EOTech) essentially as a 65moa dot instead of the 4moa dot of the Aimpoint. When I turn up the brightness on the Aimpoint 2-3 clicks brighter than the EOTech I then got the Aimpoint within 3/100ths of a sec of the EOTech. If I get the Aimpoint way brighter, I can get it actually faster than the EOTech but I don't run my Aimpoint that 'crazy bright' normally so the point is really moot.
If you own both optics and a timer, try it sometime. It's very interesting.
I agree with you on the who larger view EOTech bullshit that people claim. You can close the front dust cap on the Aimpoint for absolutely no FOV and still make good fast hits which debunks the bullshit theory of the EOTech 'wide FOV' crap.
Back to topic:
I plan to buy the book as well. :)
That test is still biased towards whatever you're most familiar/comfortable with.
Robb Jensen
02-08-08, 07:09
That test is still biased towards whatever you're most familiar/comfortable with.
I have more rounds down range using an Aimpoint and prefer it over an EOTech, but I found the EOTech was faster so how does that logic work? ;)
Matt Edwards
02-08-08, 09:55
Sure. However, would one say that isosceles is a way, or the way to shoot a pistol? Similarly, an aggressive stance (some claim it's "bladed"), forend hand gripping as far forward as possible, etc, are not theories. They are proven by the timer. Just as the timer proves that isosceles is superior too weaver.
Charles,
This kinda sounds like every thing anyone i've met from that place has ever said, in a nut shell.
You have earned the "Golf Clap". ;)
What, beside the Eo, Iso and "loading your mag with 30 rounds" do you think about the book will upset some trainers?
Matt
Matt,
There were a couple of other things, however I don't have the book in front of me and it’s hard for me to remember off the top of my head. The big ones were as you noted the stance, grip, loading to 30, the focus on accuracy and speed, and some probably aren’t gonna like his dissertation on BUIS. Also one gets the feel that he might not buy into the whole fine/gross motor skill thing so much.
I know for a fact the stance sets people off, as I found out (again) recently.
Nevermind, probably not worth the potential shitstorm.
NCPatrolAR
02-08-08, 15:46
Matt,
Also one gets the feel that he might not buy into the whole fine/gross motor skill thing so much.
I think some people go overboard in this area myself. If my motor skills have diminished to the point that I cant activate the slide release; how would I be able to hit the mag release which is of equal size. Also, smooth, even trigger press seems like a fine motorskill to me.
"Fine and gross motor skills" are terms from child development and child psychology. They are pretty clearly defined.
A gross motor skill is one that uses only major muscle groups, like arms, legs, & trunk. Walking is a gross motor skill.
A fine motor skill is any movement that requires smaller or more precise muscles. Pointing, grabbing, even squeezing with your hands are all fine motor skills. Basically, anything that uses your fingers is a fine motor skills.
So: Hitting slide release lever = fine motor skill
Overhand racking slide = fine motor skill
Slingshotting slide = fine motor skill
Banging head against wall after hearing this debate the 1,000th time = gross motor skill
edited to add: I'm not just making this stuff up. :cool:
babycenter.com (http://www.babycenter.com/400_whats-the-difference-between-fine-and-gross-motor-skills_505292_1000.bc)
Developmental Psychology Newsletter (http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/dept/d46/psy/dev/Spring01/Preschool/skills.html)
even Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_skill) gets it more or less right
Banging head against wall after hearing this debate the 1,000th time = gross motor skill[/list]
Dude! :D
Jay Cunningham
02-08-08, 16:18
Matt,
There were a couple of other things, however I don't have the book in front of me and it’s hard for me to remember off the top of my head. The big ones were as you noted the stance, grip, loading to 30, the focus on accuracy and speed, and some probably aren’t gonna like his dissertation on BUIS. Also one gets the feel that he might not buy into the whole fine/gross motor skill thing so much.
I know for a fact the stance sets people off, as I found out (again) recently.
Charles,
I think you might be pleasantly surprised at the skillset and experience level of many of the members of this site.
"Fine and gross motor skills" are terms from child development and child psychology. They are pretty clearly defined.
A gross motor skill is one that uses only major muscle groups, like arms, legs, & trunk. Walking is a gross motor skill.
A fine motor skill is any movement that requires smaller or more precise muscles. Pointing, grabbing, even squeezing with your hands are all fine motor skills. Basically, anything that uses your fingers is a fine motor skills.
So: Hitting slide release lever = fine motor skill
Overhand racking slide = fine motor skill
Slingshotting slide = fine motor skill
Banging head against wall after hearing this debate the 1,000th time = gross motor skill
edited to add: I'm not just making this stuff up. :cool:
babycenter.com (http://www.babycenter.com/400_whats-the-difference-between-fine-and-gross-motor-skills_505292_1000.bc)
Developmental Psychology Newsletter (http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/dept/d46/psy/dev/Spring01/Preschool/skills.html)
even Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_skill) gets it more or less right
One of the best explanations I have heard yet on the whole "gross/fine motors skills" theory. I always thought it weird when people tell me I must slingshot the slide instead of hitting the slide release/slide stop (everyone seems to call it something different) because it a gross vs fine motor skill - and during combat I won't be able to do a fine motor movement. Yet the same people then stress to me how important a nice, smooth, clean trigger pull is - I'd sure say that is a fine motor skill but I guess only certain fine motor skills leave us during combat.
Matt Edwards
02-08-08, 18:18
Todd,
Roger. I've always considered ANYTHING that is done below the wrist (IE with your hands) involves fine motor skill.
I know you are not making it up. It has been true since we were first issued hands. ;)
I used to think my Eotech was crappier than my Aimpoint, that was of course til I examined one by being able to poke my pinkie through a hole in the glass and still see the reticule in the part that was left. Now thats durable. Out of curiosity, can an Aimpoint do the same? (not shit stirring, just never saw that feature marketed by Aimpoint, I'm a proud owner of both)
Yes there were several Aimpoints on display at SHOT with broken lenses all of them were still operational (IE: the dot was visible). Three were damaged in IED blasts, one was shot and one run over by a tractor trailer.
In the interest of full disclosure I am an Aimpoint Prostaff member. But I wouldn't support the product if I didn't believe in it.
I find it interesting how some instructors and schools who teach trigger reset teach slingshotting over slide release because they claim that hitting the slide release is a fine motor skill.
They cannot have it both ways. If they feel that using the slide release is untennable because it is a fine motor skill, then they need to examine their program and remove all other fine motor skills, otherwise they are hypocritical.
Submariner
02-09-08, 01:34
It seems to be popular due to the "small" dot (1 MOA) which can help in accuracy("trying to superimpose this large dot {aimpoint} on a 300yd target head was frustrating"-KL)...
How relevant is this? There are now 2 MOA Aimpoints. Under what circumstances would most members of this board be taking 300-yards head shots anyway? And unless you have a 300-yards zero, you wouldn't be hitting the head anyway. Maybe if the bullet drop is 12 inches at 300 yards... And if your target has ARTY, CAS, etc. on call, why would you do it?
And if your target has ARTY, CAS, etc. on call, why would you do it?
CAS and ARTY take time to call in even if the targets are preplanned, friendly positions near to target, suppression for a maneuvering element, collateral damage (an important consideration on today's battlefield), etc. A 300M shot is not unheard of by any means. At the head with an Aimpoint might be stretch, but you take what the bad guys give you.
This is where the SPR comes into it's own, though, or the Aimpoint magnifiers, Short Dot, ETC. The M68 CCO issued uses the 4MOA dot, so I guess he just referenced that. I use the 2MOA on a personal gun at home and I much prefer it to the 4MOA.
One of the best explanations I have heard yet on the whole "gross/fine motors skills" theory. I always thought it weird when people tell me I must slingshot the slide instead of hitting the slide release/slide stop (everyone seems to call it something different) because it a gross vs fine motor skill - and during combat I won't be able to do a fine motor movement. Yet the same people then stress to me how important a nice, smooth, clean trigger pull is - I'd sure say that is a fine motor skill but I guess only certain fine motor skills leave us during combat.
Fine Skills get degraded -- they rarely are gone altogether unless you've totally lost it.
WRT the pistol - its demonstrably easier to rack the slide with less tactile feel -- I've seen the same argument used for running the CH on the M4.
At the end of the day - you need to choose the best movement for you that works.
Get a guy keyed up and their shooting goes all to hell - which is why breathing is stressed in precison CQB.
I've trained with several Tier1 instructors - and have seen several renditions done -- the end of the day getting the job done is job #1, based on experiences you may find one method has worked best for you -- its a
way not the way (as was mentioned previously), and most unit/instructos will not FORCE you to alter your drills as long as they work and provide real results.
I see guys from the same unit do things different -- neither is WRONG -- it works thus both are right -- one way may just be more right for you.
Dot-size selection in the Aimpoint is all about potential use of the carbine. If you intend to make shots at things that are smaller than the 4 MOA dot, whether due to distance or fighting Lilliputians, then pick the smaller dot.
As others have said though, wouldn't you be holding over anyway at the ranges where the 4 MOA would become an obstruction?
Dot-size on the Eotech is right up there with "field of view". It doesn't much stand up to rational evaluation.
neither is WRONG -- it works thus both are right -- one way may just be more right for you.
This should be a sigline. But, if we all respected same, we wouldn't have much to discuss here anymore. :p
Matt Edwards
02-09-08, 08:53
Any skill is relevent if you have to use it. I was not trying to get into a "Eo vs AP" debate. I was only stateing what was mentioned in the book and what was shared with me from guys with the same back ground. There is NO reason to argue this point. If you don't like the Eo, don't get one. The fact that "they" may have a preferance for the Eo should not be grounds for anyone getting upset.
As far as the "gross motor skills" thing goes, I think we all agree that it does exist. As long as we are tracking that using the trigger, hitting the mag releas, reloading the weapon, hitting the slide stop or running the slide are all "fine motor skills". There may be some good reasons to, say, "run the slide" to reload a pistol. Just don't say the running the slide is "gross" and hitting the stop is "fine". That is kinda silly. Both involve useing fingers.
M4guru,
I'm looking forward to seeing you in a bit! BTW, your 2 MOA aimpoint is on MY AR right now. I'm telling you so you are not surprised to fine a "C-less" sight on you carbine when you get home.;)
Matt
I'm telling you so you are not surprised to fine a "C-less" sight on you carbine when you get home.
Matt
Now that would be Cold........;)
Jay Cunningham
02-09-08, 09:46
Guys, we should stick to the book. If you've read it then cool. If you would like to talk to an excerpt that has been posted, then cool as well. If you haven't read it then stuff is heading OT.
M4guru,
I'm looking forward to seeing you in a bit! BTW, your 2 MOA aimpoint is on MY AR right now. I'm telling you so you are not surprised to fine a "C-less" sight on you carbine when you get home.
Matt
Don't worry, I still have my Matt Dot...I mean Short Dot.:D
I have been fortunate enough to meet Kyle, shoot with him, and be instructed by him a few times and have always been impressed. I wish someone with his skills and background would put out a book on the precision rifle and combat pistol to round it out.
Matt Edwards
02-10-08, 14:01
"Matt Dot". OK, that's funny.
Another point worth discussing. KL's "tac load" technique. He states he perfers to take the partial mag, put it "away", THEN reload the carbine. Although he does not state it out right, it would seem he perfers this TTP to other techniques that would call for you to have two mags in your hand at the same time.
I'm sure this will get responses, so I'll add that I'm not for or against any one TTP when it come to this. Both are METT-TC.
He states he perfers to take the partial mag, put it "away", THEN reload the carbine. Although he does not state it out right, it would seem he perfers this TTP to other techniques that would call for you to have two mags in your hand at the same time.
This is another example of understanding the history behind a technique. The traditional "two mags in one hand" thing came out of Gunsite, where everyone had single stack magazines and even smaller-handed individuals could manage the technique, with practice, and not fumble much. (the entire idea behind the "tactical reload" was administrative and not tactical to begin with, but that's another story)
When Glock came along with its humongous (in comparison) magazines, a lot of PDs had "small statured officers" -- read: chicks & short guys -- with small hands who couldn't reliably juggle two thick Glock magazines given the relatively minimal training time devoted to the technique. So instead Glock began teaching people to stow the first magazine and then load the gun from the belt.
Purists objected that this was anathema, for the gun was low on ammo for a longer period of time than the traditional at-the-gun mag swap. People with stopwatches, on the other hand, quickly learned that the Glock at-the-belt swap method was actually faster ... often significantly faster depending on the amount of training time someone devoted to the techniques. The Glock method requires a lot less time and effort to perform properly and quickly.
FWIW, I am seeing more and more teams/agencies teaching people to perform an IPSC-style "speed" (in-battery) reload and then, as time and situation permit, pick up the partially spent magazine from the deck. This satisfies the needs of the at-the-gun swap people (the gun is near-empty the shortest possible amount of time), satisfies the needs of the at-the-belt swap people (you can fire your next shot faster), and therefore is often seen as completely unacceptable by both sides. :cool:
Stretz Tactical Inc
02-10-08, 16:12
I think LAV's quote about dropping a partially depleated mag on the ground and loading a fresh one was something like "that is bullshit!"
I agree. You are throwing ammo away for one. Something that comes to mind with this is a cop I worked with in the bronx. He was not a gun guy and got in a running gun battle with a robbery subject and fired 17 rounds. If he kept reloading after firing a few rounds he would have ended up with a single shot gun. Granted their are some training issues with that officer firing 17 rounds and not hitting anything, but most cops and soldiers dont do a lot of shooting on their own, don't seek out training on their own and only go to the range an average of twice a year.
Secondly, my current agency does this silly drill, which they call the "slide forward reload drill". In addition to throwing away ammo, your beating up the magazines faster with a heavy (partially depleted magazine hitting the ground then just an empty mag hitting the ground. While I know you shouldn't fall in love with your mags and I went and purchased extra mags, so that I have mags dedicated for the range only and patrol only, most cops and soldiers, wont do this and neither will most agencies. So now you have people carrying these magazines in their weapons and their lives are depending on them. I just don't like the idea. Just my 2 cents.
Matt Edwards
02-10-08, 17:17
Todd,
I am tracking.
KCS,
I agree. The TTP you discussed is a "third" technique to the two preveously mentioned. Personaly, I don't have much use for that one. I would not want to make a habbit of dropping ammo I could use.
Somewhat/kinda related...I know of an instructor that teaches to "run the slide" when a fresh mag is inserted.(with a pistol any way) If you have shot to slide lock, you reload and "run the slide". When you "tac reload" you "run the slide" there by jacking a live round out of the chamber. In this way, they say, you are enforcing the same actions. Although these guys taught a bunch of good TTPs which I still very much use, I did not sign off on this one. As a part of a Rifle Squad, one round may not make too much difference. As an indavidual, it may make ALL the difference in the world.
KCS,
15 years ago Rangers in Somalia and most recently LEOs in Katrina-New Orleans learned the hard way conducting "slide forward speed reloads" were not a good idea. Dropping partially loaded or even empty magazines (unless under serious duress, i.e. extremely close distance confrontations) on the deck (or N.O. sewer water) is a poor TTP on a two way range.
The "make a hole, store the mag, fill the hole" tactical reload mentioned by Todd is very viable and becoming more accepted doctrinally for the reasons he mentions.
S/F
Todd,
Somewhat/kinda related...I know of an instructor that teaches to "run the slide" when a fresh mag is inserted.(with a pistol any way) If you have shot to slide lock, you reload and "run the slide". When you "tac reload" you "run the slide" there by jacking a live round out of the chamber. In this way, they say, you are enforcing the same actions. Although these guys taught a bunch of good TTPs which I still very much use, I did not sign off on this one.
I know what you mean, and I think it is nonsense. By definition a tactical reload is one where there is a round in the magazine so why take the extra effort.
I have also had the same people say that it guards against situations where people think they have a round in the chamber but do not. If we are going to follow that questionable path of logic, what about situations where guns have malfunctioned and the user thought they were out of ammo? To guard against this, why not do a malfunction clearance every time you change magazines? This way you only have one skill to handle both malfunctions and out of ammo situations and you get to practice it a lot? Of course I am being ridiculous to illustrate my point.
I, too, disagree with the "run the slide every time" thing. This is the kind of technique that comes about when people take a concept (minimize conditional branching) and take it to illogical extremes.
I'd humbly suggest there is a difference between what is an appropriate technique for a member of a squad in a warzone and an individual in a self-defense or home-defense (or even domestic LE) situation. I see "never leave ammo behind" still a very common thing taught in military/overseas-deployment schools but much less so in domestic LE training.
Lest we again raise ire by spinning the thread off course, perhaps someone should start a "tac reload" thread?
Jeff Gonzales wrote recently about the difference between "tac reloads" where you stow the partial before retrieving the full. Based on the discussion that ensued, I conducted a bit of a test at the carbine match that I run to see if people did the G-B-G (gun-belt-gun) reload faster than the G-B-G-B (gun-belt-gun-belt). We ran an identical drill where shooters did everything the same except for the reload. We found that the majority of shooters performed the G-B-G reload faster than the alternative.
I find that I'm faster with G-B-G-B with the handgun, and G-B-G with the rifle, but in theory the point of which is faster should really be moot, as they are really administrative loads that are not meant to be on the clock.
To further this subject, Jeff also mentioned that he preferred to have his students run their carbines dry so that they go as much practice time with speed reloads as possible. His theory was, to paraphrase, that admin reloads are not a skill that requires fast manipulation and therefore do not require as much practice as the speed reloads. I find myself agreeing with him, and have incorporated this into my training as well.
Iraq Ninja
02-10-08, 23:42
I just tried to order it, but they are not set up for APO orders, which sucks. I am very surprised by this, since most companies are switched on enough to allow an APO, or at least mention how to order in the FAQ...
In addition to what Lt. Col Blish mentioned, it's difficult to recover dropped mags in lowlight, and particularly difficult to recover dropped mags when you are moving to avoid incoming rounds on the 2 way range.
Whether you have already moved to a new position, or you're just plain shooting on the move, the likelihood of being able to return and pick up your mags is pretty low.
The reason you moved is because that wasn't a good place to be. Better to keep the partial mags on you.
To me, it seems the more likely scenario if you are still engaged is not an in battery speed load, but a speed load from slide lock, especially if shooting a pistol, and even more so if shooting a 1911. It's easy to shoot a 1911 dry in a hurry.
For "tactical reloads", I find that removing the partial mag from the weapon (rifle or pistol) and stowing it, then inserting a fresh mag is faster and more murphy proof. Of course, I define a "lull" in the fight as afterward, when I'm back home drinking a cold refreshing beverage.
By the way, I'm ordering KL's book this week.
FWIW
Erick Gelhaus
02-11-08, 04:51
Iraq-
Posted elsewhere those downrange have apparently been successful emailing a shipping address once they've sent in an order. Might be worth a try.
Jay Cunningham
02-11-08, 05:11
I started a poll here. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=11523)
FlyAndFight
02-11-08, 14:29
Tracker says my book is due in tomorrow. Looking forward to reading it.
Tracker says my book is due in tomorrow. Looking forward to reading it.
Mine too.
My girlfriend's birthday is tomorrow too. How much you wanna bet that she thinks the package is for her. :D
I can't understand why they use UPS Ground instead of USPS Media Mail. The cost difference is huge.
Another point worth discussing. KL's "tac load" technique. He states he perfers to take the partial mag, put it "away", THEN reload the carbine.
That’s generally the way I tac load the carbine. If I'm doing a tac load I would assume I have time. It was also another point in the book I thought might go "against the grain" so to speak.
On racking every time the mag is touched…… naw. For a person who will not attain a modicum level of proficiency, sure, what ever. For a high level shooter... **** that!
Ordered my copy today via the website.
Matt Edwards
02-11-08, 20:20
Charles,
I figured that was one you were talking about. I've had instruction on some of the "2 mags in hand techniques" an it never seems to save time for me(with a carbine, I do it for a pistol). I'll freely admit that that is my problem and not anyone elses.
Your responce to the "touch the mag run the slide" is CLASSIC!!
FlyAndFight
02-12-08, 13:28
Mine too.
My girlfriend's birthday is tomorrow too. How much you wanna bet that she thinks the package is for her. :D
Too funny, Rob! :D
So you're getting a double-whammy of "birthday" and "St. Valentine's Day" this week... Yikes!
By the way, book just arrived now and I was surprised and impressed to find that it was autographed by the author, Mr. Lamb. Very cool.
Just flipping through it very quickly, I can see that it's got quite a bit of detailed and diverse information. Looking forward to reading it further this evening.
Green Eyes and Black Rifles
Will be on my door step Friday
My book was supposed to be here today but, for whatever reason, UPS says it's now been rescheduled for delivery tomorrow...:mad:
RogerinTPA
02-12-08, 17:32
Got mine in this morning. Just thumbing through, I thought it was pretty thorough covering tactical shooting positions, and such, but to be an advanced carbine shooting book, I thought it spent too much time on the basics of the AR fluff, types of barrels, etc... The rest of the book looks pretty "good to go" though. I can't wait to finish it and wait until a week or two passes and the flaming begins...:p Lots of Vtac car stickies though!
I have not read the book, but have talked to some that have. From all reports, it seems to be a very NON technical book for the most part.
Anyone else get that impression?
C4
RogerinTPA
02-12-08, 17:45
I have not read the book, but have talked to some that have. From all reports, it seems to be a very NON technical book for the most part.
Anyone else get that impression?
C4
His writing style is not the tech-speak you would expect. I'm glad it's not the dry as a bone, typical tech-mil-speak. It seems more layman and opinion driven. I guess to get his point across most of the full spectrum of carbine users out there. AND, there are a lot of bubba's types out there...! :eek: More like introductory through advanced carbine. It's still a good read so far.
My two copies came today, and one is signed. Anyone else wind up with a signed one?
David Thomas
02-12-08, 19:55
My two copies came today, and one is signed. Anyone else wind up with a signed one?
Yes. Mine is signed.
I have thoroughly enjoyed this book. I wish more books of this nature were available.
FlyAndFight
02-12-08, 20:06
My two copies came today, and one is signed. Anyone else wind up with a signed one?
Yes, I mentioned it above as well. Very nice.
"Fine and gross motor skills" are terms from child development and child psychology. They are pretty clearly defined.
A gross motor skill is one that uses only major muscle groups, like arms, legs, & trunk. Walking is a gross motor skill.
A fine motor skill is any movement that requires smaller or more precise muscles. Pointing, grabbing, even squeezing with your hands are all fine motor skills. Basically, anything that uses your fingers is a fine motor skills.
So: Hitting slide release lever = fine motor skill
Overhand racking slide = fine motor skill
Slingshotting slide = fine motor skill
Banging head against wall after hearing this debate the 1,000th time = gross motor skill
edited to add: I'm not just making this stuff up. :cool:
babycenter.com (http://www.babycenter.com/400_whats-the-difference-between-fine-and-gross-motor-skills_505292_1000.bc)
Developmental Psychology Newsletter (http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/dept/d46/psy/dev/Spring01/Preschool/skills.html)
even Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_skill) gets it more or less right
THANK YOU.
I know a lot of guys train to "slingshot" the slide but it's just plain easier for me to trip the mag release with my weak hand thumb, as I re-grip the gun.
RogerinTPA
02-12-08, 21:29
My two copies came today, and one is signed. Anyone else wind up with a signed one?
Yup, mine too. Just noticed, "Stay in the fight!!" Very cool!
Iraq Ninja
02-12-08, 22:28
Iraq-
Posted elsewhere those downrange have apparently been successful emailing a shipping address once they've sent in an order. Might be worth a try.
Isn't that sad? Just think, a book that needs to get in the hands of young soldiers is sold by a company that makes little effort to ship anything by APO. Many of these soldiers over here have to go to the MWR to check their email, and don't have time to mess around like this.
vikingtactics.com needs to wake up and get this APO problem sorted. I personally only deal with companies that are set up for APO. I am not going to play email tag to get it ordered.
Isn't that sad? Just think, a book that needs to get in the hands of young soldiers is sold by a company that makes little effort to ship anything by APO. Many of these soldiers over here have to go to the MWR to check their email, and don't have time to mess around like this.
vikingtactics.com needs to wake up and get this APO problem sorted. I personally only deal with companies that are set up for APO. I am not going to play email tag to get it ordered.
Umm... I ordered mine, and I'm in Iraq, and did so with two emails. One stating that I wished to order the book, I got a response telling me to send my info. I sent my info, and then received an email confirmation that the order was processed. I thought they were super helpful. I don't believe they are running a 500 employee operation at VTAC, so I believe they take care of things mostly with a few people.
I created a slight misunderstanding when placing my order via their website (my fault, not theirs), which resulted in a phone call the next day from a very helpful and cordial lady to sort the issue out.
Could not be more pleased with their service.
Army Chief
02-13-08, 03:00
Isn't that sad? Just think, a book that needs to get in the hands of young soldiers is sold by a company that makes little effort to ship anything by APO. Many of these soldiers over here have to go to the MWR to check their email, and don't have time to mess around like this.
vikingtactics.com needs to wake up and get this APO problem sorted. I personally only deal with companies that are set up for APO. I am not going to play email tag to get it ordered.
Understand what you're saying here, but so long as they are willing to accomodate an APO order by some alternate means, I find this a rather hollow protest. The fact is that they WILL gladly ship to an APO -- it's just a matter of their online shopping cart being unable to validate the APO/FPO city/state data. This is a common enough limitation, and I don't get particularly excited about it, so long as the vendor has some alternative means of fulfilling my order(s). That is very much the case here.
The "preferred method" of dealing with APO orders at Viking (per Melynda Lamb), is to place a regular order online using a stateside address, and then following that up with a quick e-mail to THEM (mailto:cyersights@earthlink.net) to pass along your APO data. They will manually cancel the automatically-generated UPS tracking number, and get your order into the U.S. Postal System with nary a complaint. That's one (1) additional e-mail to send, and if you're already online browing their web site, I don't think it's an undue burden to bear.
I had no difficulty with my APO order, and I doubt seriously that anyone else will either, provided you are willing to take this one (albeit minor) extra step.
Chief
Army Chief
02-13-08, 03:03
Umm... I ordered mine, and I'm in Iraq, and did so with two emails. One stating that I wished to order the book, I got a response telling me to send my info. I sent my info, and then received an email confirmation that the order was processed.
While this is not the "preferred method," you're absolutely right: they are perfectly willing to handle the transaction entirely via e-mail, with no shopping cart interface; it just slows things down a bit on their end.
The point? One way or the other, Viking Tactical will support a warfighter's order.
Chief
I ended up having a buddy from LF get a copy for me and ship it to my APO.
I could have sent them an email and found their "prefered" APO order method -- but most shopping carts in this day and age have APO for city and AE for state as options.
It would make it a little more easier for those with limited MWR internet time. (not me as we have dedicated satilite net) but for those who need to slip to the MWR to do their net stuff it does add some extra suck.
If anyone is tight with them they may want to mention it.
Army Chief
02-13-08, 05:06
Kevin,
I'm inclined to agree with you on the face of the issue, but as someone who has been OCONUS continously for the past eight years, it hasn't really been my experience that most vendors have the APO option on their shopping cart; of course, we learn to avoid those that don't, because it is generally reflective of a no-APO/FPO shipping policy, and none of us have the time or patience to deal with those kinds of companies. Thankfully, the situation has steadily been improving, but not so very long ago, APO-friendly businesses were something of an exception to the rule.
That said, I've spent enough time in and around small-business software solutions to know that some of these features go missing from the more budget-oriented shopping cart scripts. Whether that has any bearing on Viking's situation or not I cannot say, but they seem to have purchased some kind of integrated order fulfillment/shipping (UPS-centric) solution that may not be especially customizable. Not negating the argument here, but I wouldn't guess that these guys have a vast IT department at their disposal, hence, we're left with whatever imperfect solution they bought into.
Assuming I understood your closing comment correctly, I should probably state that I've no connection to Viking whatsoever. Don't know the people. Haven't trained with them. Do not yet even own any of their products. I'm just trying to give a fair shake to a business that, notwithstanding the limitations of their online ordering solution, are perfectly willing to deal with APO customers. Like most of us, it's the firms that won't even consider dealing with us that really raise my ire. I can deal with some slight inconvenience so long as it doesn't have it's basis in blatant corporate inconsideration.
Chief
boy this thread sold some books. mine should be in any day now.
I have not read the book, but have talked to some that have. From all reports, it seems to be a very NON technical book for the most part.
Anyone else get that impression?
C4
Yep. In my first post I said that it was "more of a general over view." I finally got it back last night, and reafirmed that.
I just got my copy (signed) [thanks Giff]
Now that I know the APO route -- I have two teammates that want a copy too, and am hooking them up.
Yep. In my first post I said that it was "more of a general over view." I finally got it back last night, and reafirmed that.
I'm just starting to read it now, and I'd be inclined to agree.
With that said, there's nothing wrong with a review of the basics, and it would make a great gift for someone that's just starting to get training. I got a copy for a buddy that's in the Army that's going for his first real rifle training (outside the military) next month and going back "over there" later this year.
Jay Cunningham
02-14-08, 08:50
I'm about half way through this book and I don't think it would be good for a brand new student. I think it's much more appropriate for a student with several classes under their belt; otherwise, many of the concepts presented may be hard to relate to.
I just got my copy (signed) [thanks Giff]
Now that I know the APO route -- I have two teammates that want a copy too, and am hooking them up.
Kevin,
You're more than welcome.
I thought it was a good read. I've got to go back and re-read sections and start incorporating some of this into my drills. I'm also going to pick up a sheet of plywood and make 2 of the barricades.
I do wish there had been some more Iraq pics though.
Now that the book has been doing so well....
Here is a chance to get in on one of the few open enrollment classes offered by Kyle Lamb / Viking Tactics in 2008.
http://www.vikingtactics.com/instruction.html
Carbine 1.5
Date: 24-25 MAY 2008
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Cost: $400
Other VTAC classes scheduled in NC:
Pistol 19-20 JUL
Nightfighter 22-23 NOV (Carbine 1.5 is a prereq)
Contact: jmwhite3@gmail.com
Dano -- thanks for that link.
And his june class
21-22 Carbine 1.5 (Open to Civilians), Michigan, Contact Steve kayufish2@aol.com
Now that the book has been doing so well....
Here is a chance to get in on one of the few open enrollment classes offered by Kyle Lamb / Viking Tactics in 2008.
http://www.vikingtactics.com/instruction.html
Carbine 1.5
Date: 24-25 MAY 2008
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Cost: $400
Contact: jmwhite3@gmail.com
The check is on the way! :D
Matt,
There were a couple of other things, however I don't have the book in front of me and it’s hard for me to remember off the top of my head. The big ones were as you noted the stance, grip, loading to 30, the focus on accuracy and speed, and some probably aren’t gonna like his dissertation on BUIS. Also one gets the feel that he might not buy into the whole fine/gross motor skill thing so much.
I know for a fact the stance sets people off, as I found out (again) recently.
Unfortuneately I haven't seen the book yet (soon I hope).
What stance is he advocating?
David Thomas
02-25-08, 06:39
Unfortuneately I haven't seen the book yet (soon I hope).
What stance is he advocating?
what he calls a "Boxer's" stance, which is bladed instead of being squared off.
What stance is he advocating?
Something about like this...;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/CharlesArbuckle/LAVCarbine1ClassFeb16-172008033.jpg
Cool Pic!
Where's all the VFG's?
Submariner
02-25-08, 19:00
what he calls a "Boxer's" stance, which is bladed instead of being squared off.
Does anyone of any repute teach the "squared off" stance illustrated in the book?
NCPatrolAR
02-25-08, 19:07
I think Tactical Response teaches you to fight in a squared up stance
Jay Cunningham
02-25-08, 19:07
Does anyone of any repute teach the "squared off" stance illustrated in the book?
There are many carbine instructors that teach the squared up "subgun" type stance. Whether they are of any repute or not is a completely different matter.
David Thomas
02-25-08, 19:41
Does anyone of any repute teach the "squared off" stance illustrated in the book?
Matt Burkett
Where's all the VFG's?
Those are all game guns............ Give or take.
I think Tactical Response teaches you to fight in a squared up stance
You can say that again..... ;)
Well!!!
I thought the squared stance was "the" stance? Anybody care to educate me on the pros/cons of each?
It would be very helpful.
PS. My shooters will be wearing IBA.
Thanks
RustyFalcon
02-25-08, 22:04
You can say that again..... ;)
Very squared up for everything - pistol, shotgun, etc. But if you training plan assumes lowest common denominator students, they are very effective at bringing people up to a common standard of performance in a 2-day rifle class.
RustyFalcon
02-25-08, 22:06
Well!!!
I thought the squared stance was "the" stance? Anybody care to educate me on the pros/cons of each?
It would be very helpful.
PS. My shooters will be wearing IBA.
Thanks
I wear a Spartan II, much like an IBA. I believe even with armor on it is more effective to use a bladed stance for a carbine. I find for me I can get better control of the weapon with my support hand clamped around the handguard at the base of the FSB pulling the weapon back into my shoulder.
Charles you want to post those bladed vs. squared pics of you in an armor carrier ?
Okay,
I thought the idea was to get the plate "squared" toward the threat?
RustyFalcon
02-25-08, 22:21
Okay,
I thought the idea was to get the plate "squared" toward the threat?
This is true.
But there are certain schools of thought that believe you are sacrificing efficiency in the use of your carbine/rifle by shooting it with the same stance you would use for efficient use of a subgun or pistol; "squared up".
Matt Edwards
02-25-08, 22:40
There was a time, not to long ago, when it was doctrine in the Army. Everyone talked about it and even taught it. I never really saw anyone do it. As far as I'm conserned, you can't really do it. Sure, you can present more chest then side to the target, but to stand totally squeard with shoulder fired weapon that must be anchoed to ONE side or the other, it is hard to do. It was a side effect of wanting to place you "plate" between you and your enemy. Again, other then in a class room, I've never seen anyone do it. Charles' cool guy pick is pretty much what I've always seen and done for the most part.
Now a pistol, on the other hand...;)
RustyFalcon
02-25-08, 22:44
Now a pistol, on the other hand...;)
And for good reason as well. Weaver was felt to be state of the art, but then so was the old hipshooting technique once upon a time. I believe that in most cases, the modern modified isoceles provides the best platform for accurate pistol shooting when combined with proper trigger control.
Perhaps we will see a 'revolution in carbine affairs' when someone discovers the OPTIMAL technique. Unless.. gasp.. we already have ?
First some visuals with one of the issued PC's.
Squared-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/CharlesArbuckle/gfjn.jpg
Aggressive stance-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/CharlesArbuckle/th.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/CharlesArbuckle/shootingstance-gripAR002.jpg
Edit: Please no links to them.
Matt Edwards
02-25-08, 23:31
Falcon,
Roger. I'm very much with you on the pistol shooting TTP. Of course I was taught the "modern/stong/modified Iso" with thumbs forward, back in the '80s by Ron Wannanan.
Charles,
Also, roger. Use a carbine like a carbine, NOT like a sub gun or pistol.
Oh hell Matt, I saw plenty of dudes do it. Or at least do it on the flat range. Matter of fact that was the way I was taught. You should have seen there faces when I started "lengthening" my stance. Like I had a baby's dick growing out of my forehead, or something. :eek: Luckily my need for speed liberated me. :D
I can't get over how people say squared up is natural. Every boxer "blades" himself. Watch cops. Everytime they fell threatened they "blade" themselves. Just look at my face in the pics. Which one looks more relaxed? I've said it before and I'll say it again- the M4 is not an MP5! Sheesh..... :p
I just want to put this out there- on the technique itself, just like the timer proves isosceles is superior to weaver, the timer also proves an aggressive stance is superior to squared.
And before anyone says it; yes you can move in all directions just fine in that stance.
Jay Cunningham
02-26-08, 06:27
My first carbine instructor that I ever received formal training from taught (and continues to teach) a squared up stance, support hand used simply as a rest under the HG's near the magwell. The same curriculum also teaches Weaver for HG. Their course of instruction is heavily influenced by Gunsite doctrine.
I have since expanded my horizons.
RustyFalcon
02-26-08, 08:53
My first carbine instructor that I ever received formal training from taught (and continues to teach) a squared up stance, support hand used simply as a rest under the HG's near the magwell. The same curriculum also teaches Weaver for HG. Their course of instruction is heavily influenced by Gunsite doctrine.
I have since expanded my horizons.
Katar:
Charles is a great proponent for the bladed carbine stance. When he explained it to me a few weeks back, one thing really stood out in my mind. When you clamp your support hand far forward, you naturally pull the gun back into your shoulder. This works whether you use a pistol grip or not.
Another similarity is that when you use a thumbs forward technique on your pistol, you exert most of the gripping force with your support hand - right ? The strong hand holds the weapon but it's a 60-40 relationship or better with the support hand providing more of the grip action so that your strong hand and thus trigger finger are more relaxed and able to exert trigger control.
Likewise, if you clamp and hold the carbine with your support hand, your strong hand is free to hold the weapon and exert trigger control - a death grip on the pistol grip is not required.
Just my two cents.
Jay Cunningham
02-26-08, 09:57
Katar:
Charles is a great proponent for the bladed carbine stance. When he explained it to me a few weeks back, one thing really stood out in my mind. When you clamp your support hand far forward, you naturally pull the gun back into your shoulder. This works whether you use a pistol grip or not.
Another similarity is that when you use a thumbs forward technique on your pistol, you exert most of the gripping force with your support hand - right ? The strong hand holds the weapon but it's a 60-40 relationship or better with the support hand providing more of the grip action so that your strong hand and thus trigger finger are more relaxed and able to exert trigger control.
Likewise, if you clamp and hold the carbine with your support hand, your strong hand is free to hold the weapon and exert trigger control - a death grip on the pistol grip is not required.
Just my two cents.
You are preaching to the choir - I have been through several carbine classes with LAV. ;)
One thing that I don't get are the schools who teach "AK specific" classes emphasizing the magwell hold and square stance - I run my AK as LAV teaches, with my hand all the way out and a very aggressive stance. I have no issues competing with the AR guys on either side of me.
Tag to view the Charles pics from home.
Jay Cunningham
02-26-08, 10:26
Here is a pic of shooters on the line at LAV's first AK class last year:
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/774/vtakfs4.jpg
I'm second from the right with the black shirt.
Submariner
02-26-08, 10:36
First some visuals with one of the issued PC's.
...
Aggressive stance-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/CharlesArbuckle/shootingstance-gripAR002.jpg
It's not a question of blading or no blading but how much blading. Zero blading with feet side by side ("Squared Up", as illustrated in the book) has no fore and aft stability. Ungood. Just how far forward should the support foot be placed is the real question.
I'll bet the camera man could push over this shooter with one finger. He is so "bladed" he appears to have little lateral stability. Also ungood.
Of course, the wall (immediately behind the background) might keep him up.;) Not a good place to stand if there is incoming . I think Kyle Lamb talked about this as well. Others have. YMMV.
For those of you discussing the different stances for a pistol and carbine, a fighting, or boxers stance, is preferred by some instructors for both platforms. Attached are a couple photos of Brian Searcy of TigerSwan. His bio:
Brian Searcy, President/COO
As President and Chief Operating Officer of TigerSwan, Inc., Brian Searcy manages the company’s growth and core services: security, tactical training, K9 solutions and corporate intelligence.
Prior to this position, he served as a civilian consultant to the Pentagon’s Improvised Explosive Device (IED) Defeat Task Force, working in Iraq and the United States training Soldiers and Marines to predict, detect, and mitigate the threat of IEDs.
Brian served 23 years in Army Special Operations and spent the last 16 years with 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta (Delta Force). His leadership experience included serving as a military advisor in Central and South America and as the Command Sergeant Major for a 1,700 person Joint Special Operations Task Force in Iraq. He briefed the President and members of the National Security Council on capabilities and limitations of special operations forces. He led protection details for high ranking government and military officials in high threat and combat environments, and possesses a wealth of experience in personal and site security in environments worldwide, for example Colombia, Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq.
As a Delta Force instructor, Brian authored and taught classes in assault planning, VIP protection, rifle and pistol marksmanship, explosive and mechanical breaching, close quarters battle and hand to hand combat. He served as the program manager and primary instructor for the Delta’s shooting program. A competitive shooter for over 20 years, Brian competed at the top levels of competition in both precision and action shooting. He is a U.S. Army Distinguished Pistol Shot and has been awarded the President’s Hundred Tab. Other marksmanship accolades include: Overall Winner- 2005 Joint Special Operations Command Small Arms Championships and 2003 North Carolina Indoor Conventional Pistol Champion.
In addition to receiving a bachelor's degree in government from Campbell University, Brian has earned a master’s degree in public administration from Central Michigan University. Additionally he has completed an executive leadership program at Harvard University’s Kennedy School of Government.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v468/zushwa/Brianpistol.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v468/zushwa/Briancarbine.jpg
An aggressive stance for both platforms can be very effective. I would have posted pictures of me but I'm a nobody. :)
Later,
I'll bet the camera man could push over this shooter with one finger. He is so "bladed" he appears to have little lateral stability. Also ungood.
Not hardly.
Just measured it, and my feet are apart about ft left/right, and about the same front/back.
Of course your stance changes depending on circumstances, just like with a pistol, however you have to have some kind of default stance. One can certainly do good work squared up, just like one can do good work in weaver.
The one on the left is in the same stance as the above picture. (Sorry about the birds it was taken for another board. :D ).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/CharlesArbuckle/435008.jpg
Josh, ohhh... now you've done it. :D
Submariner
02-26-08, 11:20
Not hardly.
Just measured it, and my feet are apart about ft left/right, and about the same front/back.
OK. Might my comment be valid for the center flipper, er, shooter?
Does he have a side armor plate? If so, is there any gap?
Which way do your toes point when you are shooting on the move?
Comparing pistol and carbine stances only goes so far. Furthermore, foot position and shoulder/torso position aren't always linked. You can have what looks like a bladed stance from the waist down, but a squared stance from the waist up ... this is the way many shooters (including me) use a pistol from a static standing position.
With a pistol, my hands are both at the same distance from my body. I also want more or less the same amount of bend in both arms. All of the recoil of the gun is coming into my hands at one point.
With a carbine (or shotgun, whatever) one hand is substantially farther forward than the other and one arm is substantially more bent. The recoil of the gun is being controlled in different measures by my front hand, my shooting hand, and my shoulder.
OK. Might my comment be valid for the center flipper, er, shooter?
Maybe. Everything costs somthing. The more of an aggressive lean you have, the more control you have on the gun. However you do lose some lateral stability. When in doubt I go for more control on the gun.
I don't think he has side plates.
Shooting on the move- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls_otsrPgCs
These discussions reach a point of diminishing returns.
Try everything you come in contact with, figure out if it works for you or not, absorb what works, reject what doesn't, and move on.
Arguing over who's stance is best for what is nothing more than internet masturbation among shooters who (should) respect one another's ability to do the above.
You shouldn't be any more married to your stance, grip, head position, etc. than you are to your gear. Better is better, different isn't better.
Arguing over who's stance is best for what is nothing more than internet masturbation among shooters who (should) respect one another's ability to do the above.
LOL! :D A.K.A. internet circle jerk. :eek:
Submariner
02-26-08, 12:19
These discussions reach a point of diminishing returns.
Most discussions here reach this point.
Bottom line: Buy more gear, ammo and training from the recommended vendors.:D
RustyFalcon
02-26-08, 14:35
Maybe. Everything costs somthing. The more of an aggressive lean you have, the more control you have on the gun. However you do lose some lateral stability. When in doubt I go for more control on the gun.
I don't think he has side plates.
"He" in fact does not have side plate.
"He" in fact is a reforming "squared up bitch" shooter who sees the validity of blading with a carbine whilst still squaring with a pistol.
That finger-flipper picture was from the first day of trying a more bladed stance. "He" has since found that a wider foot placement makes for better stability.
"He" is fix-en to get his pee-pee smacked if he don't quit being a smart ass. :eek: I'm just sayin.....
Lot's of back and forth since I asked for the pros and cons of each technique!
I appreciate all the information, from what I understand, bladed allows the shooter to grip the HG further out providing better recoil control of the rifle. Maximum stability from front to rear.
"Squared" strikes better all-around stability and the ability to move (off the X) in any direction.
These two are similar to many classical martial arts stances.
Maybe there is aplace for each?
Squared when mobility is most important?
Bladed when delivering heavy volume of fire (suppressive?)or from a position of cover?
Matt Edwards
02-26-08, 20:11
I'll bet the camera man could push over this shooter with one finger. He is so "bladed" he appears to have little lateral stability. Also ungood.
I agree with Charles, SGM Lamb and SGM Searcy. (really, how can you not) From the side, it MAY appear bladed. From the front it is very much not. There is still more "plate" to the front then to the side. Yes, this stance CAN be shot with full bady armor...and is. I don't think I'd try to push ANY of those three guys over with any amount of fingers. Remeber, and this I know for a fact, you can not will enemy fire to hit your plate no matter how you are oriented...either way. You can take that to the bank!
Matt
Robb Jensen
02-26-08, 20:16
There's a time and a place for all techniques. I've taken quite a bit of 'training' from former and current 'gunfighters' and some from 'GM World Class' competition shooters...example: some guys are teaching shooting handguns to reset, some guys say never to do that. Some guys teaching Isosceles, some teaching Weaver. Learn it all and use what works for you when it's appropriate. Just like your modern toolbox there more than one size wrench in there, more than one size screwdriver in there. Learn as much as you can from as many instructors as you can and do what works for you when you need it. They are all 'a way' to do something but none are always 'the way'...................never forget that.
Lot's of back and forth since I asked for the pros and cons of each technique!
I appreciate all the information, from what I understand, bladed allows the shooter to grip the HG further out providing better recoil control of the rifle. Maximum stability from front to rear.
"Squared" strikes better all-around stability and the ability to move (off the X) in any direction.
These two are similar to many classical martial arts stances.
Maybe there is aplace for each?
Squared when mobility is most important?
Bladed when delivering heavy volume of fire (suppressive?)or from a position of cover?
I don't disagree with what you posted. I think what you may get from the different of opinions and styles, is that a "hybrid" technique or different technique for different folks may be best. If you say a a "square" stance is better for all-around stability, some may disagree with that take for front to back stability. However, if you slightly blade or take a more aggressive posture, it may make the position more stable. Once again, not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, it just may seem there are too many variables to say this stance is good for this, this stance good for that.
Blake,
Thanks for your input...just tryin' to make some sense of it all.
As for getting the support hand out front, we knew this years ago when we use to fire the original M16's on auto.:)
HolyRoller
02-26-08, 21:38
For those in the Greater Fayettenam All American Defense Corridor, Shooters Supply/Jerry's Pawn on Bragg Boulevard has GEBR in stock for $35 per copy.
Special offer: Whoever buys my Walther P5 on consignment while you're there, tell them a copy of GEBR is included in the price!
Matt Edwards
02-26-08, 22:29
I VERY much agree in the "a way" not "the way" mentality. TTPs flow from one situation to the next. I got that. That is why I went from the "squered" with a rifle to a...i don't know "agrissive, frontal blade". I would teach my guys to square "put your plate between you and the bad guy!" untill these same guys told me "why? that is not what you do." Then shortly there after (about 2.5 years ago now) I trained with Lav. I found out it was OK to shoot like I was. (I also found out it was OK to NOT use a VFG and use a two point sling, like I always had)
I'll be brutaly honest...I did not do an indepth study of the two techniques. Just like my chooseing the Iso over the weaver, I just did what I did, and now am in the process of trying to get to the next level. It just turned out that guys like to name techniques. Case in point, If I'd have known that an agressive thumbs forward grip would be all the rage in the late '90s and now, I would have paid MORE attention to the technique when Ron taught it to me in '87.
It is kinda like the 1911 vs. Glock thing. You won't hear a word from me unless someone says that one of them is great and the other sucks.
Watch out Charles, you got your thread locked for posting pics of proper technique on GOTX...:rolleyes:
Jay Cunningham
02-28-08, 14:22
I'v had to revert to a, with an AK, magwell several times... HOT, hot, hot
That's an excellent point, Dano - I'm so used to either wearing gloves and/or shooting with polymer HG's w/heat shields that sometimes I forget how damn hot those wood HG's really get. The magwell hold makes a lot of sense in this instance.
NCPatrolAR
02-28-08, 17:37
Watch out Charles, you got your thread locked for posting pics of proper technique on GOTX...:rolleyes:
Shocker, I tell you. His warrior spirit must not be strong enough over there. That or he didnt have Big Dots (TM) on his carbine.
Charles, read your thread 'you know where'. Wonder why the hell they locked it.
I remembered seeing these pics over on LF of Basicload, so I thought I'd bring them over here:
BL's Comments:
I also shoot from a bladed stance with rifle. The distance to the target and speed in which I'm shooting determines how much of an agressive lean forward I have.
The further forward the you lean, the better that you manage recoil for rapid shots, but the more uncomfortable and unstable it can become.
I tend to lean agressively forward at distances less than 20 meters or when shooting mulitple targets fast. My lean is at the ankles, knees, hips, and shoulders.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/basicload/multiples.jpg
At farther distances I can stand almost upright.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/basicload/stance.jpg
I used to shoot HK style squared up on the target but its just not realistic for how you actually move.
Shooting from a modified fighting stance gives you more options when moving and/or having to go hands on.
I also believe that the bladed stance is closer to the modified positions (kneeling, baracades, etc) than the squared up ISO is.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/basicload/strongside.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/basicload/kneeling.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/basicload/Training150.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/basicload/baracade.jpg
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5606084761/m/1671091621
Submariner
03-02-08, 12:06
Nah... He's a gamer.
I thought he was a Rock Star...
Matt Edwards
03-02-08, 12:58
Gee, maybe he has trained with "the best carbine shooters in the world." (his words)
Matt
NCPatrolAR
03-02-08, 20:46
Back on the subject of the book for a minute.....
I finished the book several days ago. It was decent, but not as good as I was expecting from this thread. The section on the shooting positions (roll-over prone, SBU prone, etc) was the best section. The rest of the book...... it was ok.
I do have a question though. Why does Lamb mount his light at the 5 oclock position which requires him to alter his grip from how he shoots when not using the light?
Ok... let the inside jokes resume ;)
Matt Edwards
03-02-08, 21:18
He states that he has it there so he can activate it with both his hands if needs be. Altering his shooting grip is not that big of a deal.
usaffarmer
03-02-08, 22:44
Unable to authorize payment: Missing Required Shipping Information
all filled out but i live in alaska, so it will not calculate shipping. and thus will not process. so i guess its not ment to be. I hate ALASKA!!!!! I am part of the US and shipping in not really any differant to alaska.
usaffarmer, try ordering it thru www.lapolicegear.com and see how that goes. They have it.
Robb Jensen
03-03-08, 05:10
Unable to authorize payment: Missing Required Shipping Information
all filled out but i live in alaska, so it will not calculate shipping. and thus will not process. so i guess its not ment to be. I hate ALASKA!!!!! I am part of the US and shipping in not really any differant to alaska.
Bravo Company is now carrying it too, www.bravocompanyusa.com
He states that he has it there so he can activate it with both his hands if needs be. Altering his shooting grip is not that big of a deal.
Yup, that's exactly why. It really seems like with lights there is no one perfect spot to place them and in order to do what you need you may have to compromise something...
Jay Cunningham
03-03-08, 14:24
Yup, that's exactly why. It really seems like with lights there is no one perfect spot to place them and in order to do what you need you may have to compromise something...
That's why the 12:00 placement is becoming so popular. It places the beam between the sight plane and the barrel and eliminates shadow that may otherwise obscure the hands or face of the threat.
That's why the 12:00 placement is becoming so poplular. It places the beam between the sight plane and the barrel and eliminates shadow that may otherwise obscure the hands or face of the threat.
I agree but to me it's still a compromise because I have to use a wired switch if I want to be able to use it with both hands. Perfect light placement but imperfect switching option.
That's why I said it's alway some type of compromise. Obviously some compromises are better than others that's why you need to use your gear and find out what works for you.
Jay Cunningham
03-03-08, 14:42
I agree but to me it's still a compromise because I have to use a wired switch if I want to be able to use it with both hands. Perfect light placement but imperfect switching option.
That's why I said it's alway some type of compromise. Obviously some compromises are better than others that's why you need to use your gear and find out what works for you.
Of course, everything is a compromise but some approach optimal. I personally detest tape switches - many users are using the momentary switch on an SF x300 series light mounted at the 12:00.
It is my hope that SF develops an x300 pistol light and an x300 carbine light that is optimized for this role.
Yup, that's exactly why. It really seems like with lights there is no one perfect spot to place them and in order to do what you need you may have to compromise something...
That's why I, for a long time, ran two lights on my bean. (at 10 and 2 o'clock)
I think I may go back to that set up again.
i just got the book an hour ago. looking forward to reading it.
and hi, this is my first post here. arfcom refugee...
more guns, and gear. not who's butts bigger ....
I'm curious about what Lamb recommends for a zero. (I'll be purchasing the book when I'm back stateside in 45 days. Mail to my FB averages 45 days anyway, if it arrives at all.)
Also, I take it Basic Load is some sort of an authority? Not questioning him - his advice seems very sound - just curious about his background since LF seems to be a lot of civilians talking about how they can't wait to pay through the nose for the latest multi-cam assault packs and drop pouches.
Thanks.
Also, I take it Basic Load is some sort of an authority?
Without sounding obtuse, yes. He learned to shoot from some of the best, on Uncle Sugar's dime.
RAM Engineer
03-11-08, 06:44
Also, I take it Basic Load is some sort of an authority? Not questioning him - his advice seems very sound - just curious about his background since LF seems to be a lot of civilians talking about how they can't wait to pay through the nose for the latest multi-cam assault packs and drop pouches.Thanks.
I think most reasonable people would disagree with your assessment of LF.
I think most reasonable people would disagree with your assessment of LF.
They might, but 67,000+ posts on a subforum dedicated to photos of person's gear seems, well, excessive. But that doesn't mean there isn't great information there. Still, for every good thread on tactics and training there I can show you five talking about who makes the best assault pack. And each thread of the latter will have plenty of Walter Mitty's involved.
I have zero interest in getting involved in bashing or defending an internet site. Respond in defense of LF if you care. I don't.
Without sounding obtuse, yes. He learned to shoot from some of the best, on Uncle Sugar's dime.
I guess I don't know what that means. He's a support guy at CAG?
Matt Edwards
03-11-08, 09:30
There is no reason to have to defend LF. It stands on it's own.
There is cirtainly no reason to have to defend BL...you know the rest...
David Thomas
03-11-08, 10:21
I have zero interest in getting involved in bashing... an internet site.
You have done that twice already and only have 6 posts. Seems like you have an interest in it to me.
Comprido,
If you can see BL, he can see you. If you can't see BL, you may be only seconds from death.
To question LF is one thing (start your own damn thread though), but STFU with your "questioning" of BL, thats just rude... does he even post here?
This thread is for discussion of Kyle's EXCELLENT book, please quit shitting on it.
STFU with your "questioning" of BL, thats just rude... does he even post here?
This thread is for discussion of Kyle's EXCELLENT book.
Take it easy there, high strung. If a fellow posts pictures of himself to teach a shooting stance on an internet board, it doesn't seem out of line to ask if he's some sort of an authority, or just some accountant or other gun shop commando that only knows what he learned in a two-day class from Larry Vickers (which sums up at least 75 percent of posters on firearm-related internet boards.)
Consider Lightfighter's honor defended. No need for anyone else to get their knickers twisted. I "insulted" a page on the frickin' internet, not your mother.
Now back to the book.
abnartyguy
03-24-08, 19:49
Gents,
I am sorry to hear not everyone is happy but of all forums I thought this might be a place for some thought on this interesting book.
Question: Is the personal choice of the author's AR a race gun set up?
I preface this by saying I am not a cool guy, nor am I a subject matter expert. I am wondering; running a 16" pencil barrel with a "free-float," match trigger, an N-cell EO, the author said he believed in competition, and has been known to set up world class 3-gun matches (I do have to say the heat sink described sounds interesting and I am still looking for one of these in person) but this is different than some other folks I've taken classes from and I am wondering if anyone else is running this semi-race set-up on here?
Thanks for your time, later!
-ZM:cool:
Erick Gelhaus
03-25-08, 00:32
Arty-
Haven't met the SGM, so I don't know. However, many of the photos in the book depict a platform that appears to be more competition oriented than what many are used to seeing.
Question: Is the personal choice of the author's AR a race gun set up?
I would say, "not really." Certainly some of the features of the guns in the book reflect lessons and equipment developed from competition, but that doesn't mean it's not a tool for more serious use.
The extreme division between competition and "serious use" is a false dichotomy in my opinion. Certainly there are things you see on some guns used in competition that would not be ideal of for defense or combat use, but there is significant crossover. Reliability is always job one. Accuracy is good, and whatever you can use that increases your chances to get good hits as quickly as possible, but do not compromise reliability (or other user needs) is usually a good thing.
I don't think I'm risking much by asserting that Kyle Lamb fully understands what is appropriate for defense/combat use on a rifle, and the book is clearly not geared toward competitive shooters. The discussion of competition in the book (that I've read so far) is in the context of the benefits competition shooting has for those who have a more real-world end goal, but have not yet discovered that "secret." He is one of the people who fully understands both sides of the coin, and he's among a number that is much smaller than the people who claim to fully understand both.
Given that, the rifles in the book are spartan compared to a "real" race gun.
If you look at a picture on the back of the book with him geared up in Iraq, the handguard is basically the same as in the book. It has some place in combat. You can put rail strips on it and mount necessary equipment, so I don't see an enormous difference.
That rail was the forerunner of the KAC MRE rails that SGM Lambs unit used for a long time.
Gents,
I am sorry to hear not everyone is happy but of all forums I thought this might be a place for some thought on this interesting book.
Question: Is the personal choice of the author's AR a race gun set up?
I preface this by saying I am not a cool guy, nor am I a subject matter expert. I am wondering; running a 16" pencil barrel with a "free-float," match trigger, an N-cell EO, the author said he believed in competition, and has been known to set up world class 3-gun matches (I do have to say the heat sink described sounds interesting and I am still looking for one of these in person) but this is different than some other folks I've taken classes from and I am wondering if anyone else is running this semi-race set-up on here?
Thanks for your time, later!
-ZM:cool:
That is a race gun mostly because of the trigger setup. The N cell EOTech is also a poor choice as these tend to be the least reliable.
Race guns a fine if you are shooting gun games.
C4
All my 551s have been crap, but units have been using them as SOP for a long, long time with decent results, and still use them now. I'm not gonna tell a guy with Kyle Lambs background what sucks and what doesn't as far as guns go, anyways.
I guess if you can just go get a new one whenever they crap out they are a good size, but I'll pass on them for sure. Aimpoints are the sights for me.
Looks like you can buy the same rifle Kyle Lamb uses in Green Eyes and Black Rifles via Noveske...note the Viking Tactics logo on the upper. It may have a competition appearance, but I think it is more than capable as a defensive firearm.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/imimg/vtacr161556_1d.jpg
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?cat=66
If you look at a picture on the back of the book with him geared up in Iraq, the handguard is basically the same as in the book. It has some place in combat. You can put rail strips on it and mount necessary equipment, so I don't see an enormous difference.
In my novice eyes....that tube looks like the best of everything.
You get the ability to attach whatever you need...light, vertical grip, bipod, etc.
You get a nice long handguard thats not overly large or abrasive to the touch, and doesn't have sharp edges to grab on stuff.
And you get it all with probably the lightest weight possible.
It seems to me like that tube will serve every purpose you could ask of it...except attaching 203's, or acting as a heat-sink... I guess.
What about it makes it inappropriate to use on a combat weapon?
What about it makes it inappropriate to use on a combat weapon?
Good question!
Unfortunately, in the eyes of some, anything even remotely connected to "competition" is by definition "bad" and can be of no use because it's not "tactical" (and before any individuals get their shorts in a twist over that, if you don't feel that way, I'm not talking about you).
abnartyguy
03-27-08, 19:53
Anyone running an AR like it? thanks!
-ZM:cool:
ChandlerSniper158
03-27-08, 21:53
I don`t usually get into the game guns vs. tactical rifle debates. The rifle I compete with is the same rifle I will carry on duty if I wasn`t issued one. Mine is very close the the V Tac rifle.. I run a PRI rifle length C/F tube with a 14.5" bbl, Troy front and rear sights, and a SOPMOD stock. I run JP trigger parts with stock Colt springs without ever having a problem, and it has a very clean 4 to 5 lb break. I have shot and ran this rifle hard the last 2 years and have no problem saying I would bet my life on it.
In my novice eyes....that tube looks like the best of everything.
You get the ability to attach whatever you need...light, vertical grip, bipod, etc.
You get a nice long handguard thats not overly large or abrasive to the touch, and doesn't have sharp edges to grab on stuff.
And you get it all with probably the lightest weight possible.
It seems to me like that tube will serve every purpose you could ask of it...except attaching 203's, or acting as a heat-sink... I guess.
What about it makes it inappropriate to use on a combat weapon?
There is a down side to the VT tubes. It is a gigantic heat sync. So you must shoot with gloves on for any kind of prolonged use. You also will not be able to attach anything to the rail that requires a M1913 Picatinny rail.
C4
Since there seems to be a lot of questions on what makes a combat gun VS a game gun.
A combat fighting gun should have the following on it:
1. Chrome lined barrel, 556 NATO Chamber(understand that there are exceptions to this rule).
2. Combat trigger (standard USGI or Geissele).
3. Flash Suppressor.
4. M16 BCG.
5. Plastic HG's or anti-rotational rail system.
6. Fixed FSB or pinned gas block.
A game gun is generally configured as follows:
1. SS barrel with a .223 Wylde chamber.
2. Single Stage 3-4 pound trigger.
4. Muzzle brake/Comp.
5. Super light BCG.
6. Clamped on FSB or set screwed gas block (understand that some do pin them).
On a combat gun, reliability is everything. On a game gun, accuracy is everything.
C4
There is a down side to the VT tubes. It is a gigantic heat sync. So you must shoot with gloves on for any kind of prolonged use. You also will not be able to attach anything to the rail that requires a M1913 Picatinny rail.
Not true. I am LE and own three rifles with Viking Tactics tubes, a Noveske, a Colt, and a frankengun. I never shoot with gloves on unless its cold. I've never had a problem with the tubes heating up. I recently shot a three-day class where we fired close to 2000 rounds without ever noticing any heat issues.
You can attach anything you like to the tube. I've got a light and verticle foregrip on mine.
A friend bought a VTAC tube and it has full length 1913 rails bolted onto it like and other rail system.
I like the fact that I can have a smooth FF tube with rails only where I need them (front sight and flashlight).
Here is the link with all the rail options:
http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.4.php
Hey, Stainless steel Wylde chamber right here...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Iraq/048.jpg
Not true. I am LE and own three rifles with Viking Tactics tubes, a Noveske, a Colt, and a frankengun. I never shoot with gloves on unless its cold. I've never had a problem with the tubes heating up. I recently shot a three-day class where we fired close to 2000 rounds without ever noticing any heat issues.
You can attach anything you like to the tube. I've got a light and verticle foregrip on mine.
Hate to point this out to you, but ALL alum. rails transfer heat. They suck it off the chamber and transfer it on down the rail.
Stick a TD VG onto your VT rail and let me know how it fits.
C4
A friend bought a VTAC tube and it has full length 1913 rails bolted onto it like and other rail system.
I like the fact that I can have a smooth FF tube with rails only where I need them (front sight and flashlight).
Here is the link with all the rail options:
http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.4.php
I do like the smooth tube as well.
In order to mount a TD VG on it, you have to have the high neck on it. To date, I have not seen a TRUE M1913 rail out of them (and I do have these rails and tubes in stock).
C4
Hey, Stainless steel Wylde chamber right here...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Iraq/048.jpg
I am shocked! :D
Ever shoot any 75gr T2 or MK262 out of it? ;)
C4
Hate to point this out to you, but ALL alum. rails transfer heat. They suck it off the chamber and transfer it on down the rail.
Stick a TD VG onto your VT rail and let me know how it fits.
That may technically be true. What I'm saying is, I have never experienced any discomfort from heat, even after hard use.
By the way, I have TD VG's on all my guns. They all fit tight, have always been tight, and do not rattle or shake. As a matter of fact, I think I bought most of them from you.
That may technically be true. What I'm saying is, I have never experienced any discomfort from heat, even after hard use.
By the way, I have TD VG's on all my guns. They all fit tight, have always been tight, and do not rattle or shake. As a matter of fact, I think I bought most of them from you.
There must be a new 1913 rail that comes with them (or is an option) as the rails that came with all my VT rails do not have a high enough neck to allow a TD VG to fit.
C4
On a combat gun, reliability is everything. On a game gun, accuracy is everything.
Uh, I can't agree that accuracy is more imporant than reliability for a gun used in 3-gun. The people who win consistently all have gear that works all the time. People whose rifles are not reliable have a name: losers. :D
Voodoochild
03-28-08, 21:01
Hey, Stainless steel Wylde chamber right here...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Iraq/048.jpg
Looks like someone is getting a ride in a MRAP..
Uh, I can't agree that accuracy is more imporant than reliability for a gun used in 3-gun. The people who win consistently all have gear that works all the time. People whose rifles are not reliable have a name: losers. :D
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm in the same boat.
I think folks that take 3-gunning REALLY seriously, might head down that path...but to me, I just want a gun that runs.
If I was getting paid to win matches, sure I might start playing with my BCG weight and gas flow. But if I'm shooting for fun, why not shoot with the gun I'd fight with? I still shoot IDPA with the G19 I carry....not a tricked out 34 or X5.
Personally, I don't have the money to have 3 carbines, 2 short dots, and 3 spare uppers...I'm lucky when I can afford to feed my 1 carbine.
To me, it looks like that tube gives me a nice smooth hand-guard to reach out on, the ability to mount a little 2" piece of rail for a flashlight, and the ability to add and remove a bipod on a piece of rail for when I want to shoot some groups with my gun.
All without having to purchase a big heavy rail system which I'd hardly ever utilize to it's full extent.
I just didn't understand what about the 1 tube makes it not worthy for combat. If regular handguards make the grade...why doesn't this?
I just didn't understand what about the 1 tube makes it not worthy for combat. If regular handguards make the grade...why doesn't this?
Exactly!
I've seen the VTAC rail/upper at a couple of classes and none of the people who had them ever complained.
This type of handguard has really gotten me thinking about it uses and practicability. If you take a look at what the average non-military user (and even some military users) are putting on their carbines rail/hanguard forward of the receiver, is usually a light and VFG. You often see those putting rail covers on the areas that don't have equipement hanging off of the rail. With the addition of these picatinny rail sections I just see this as a a big advantage on cutting down the "girth" of the carbine. Although heat transference may be debateable I see this reduced girth as a huge plus, especially if you are not running a VFG. If heat is a big issue then, well you would either have to wear gloves or use a VFG. I know some on this forum are advocates of running the carbine without a VFG, due to better control factors. If the heat wasn't and issue wouldn't the Viking Tactics handguard be the way to go?
Uh, I can't agree that accuracy is more imporant than reliability for a gun used in 3-gun. The people who win consistently all have gear that works all the time. People whose rifles are not reliable have a name: losers. :D
If your 3 gun weapon has a hiccup, nobody dies. Do not read to much into what I am saying. No 3 gunner wants a gun that is unreliable, but they still tend to use tighter chambers and SS barrels. Both of which are not a good choice for high volumes of fire in bad conditions.
C4
All without having to purchase a big heavy rail system which I'd hardly ever utilize to it's full extent.
I just didn't understand what about the 1 tube makes it not worthy for combat. If regular handguards make the grade...why doesn't this?
I think you might be surpised to learn that the VTAC tube does not weight much less than say a DD M4 rail. ;)
I do not think there is anything wrong with a tube like the VTAC on a combat gun. My personal issue would be that it could get very hot and really can come loose (as I have seen happen). Much like the ARMS SIR, I am not a fan of all my rails being bolted on with screws. Too many times (even with loctite applied), I have seen them work free. I much prefer to know that my light, laser and VG are not going to be sitting in the dirt. YMMV.
C4
Too many times (even with loctite applied), I have seen them work free. I much prefer to know that them my light, laser and VG are not going to be sitting in the dirt. YMMV.
C4
Good points!
Rhino
Uh, I can't agree that accuracy is more imporant than reliability for a gun used in 3-gun. The people who win consistently all have gear that works all the time. People whose rifles are not reliable have a name: losers.
In my experience, I see gamer guns go down a lot..There always trying some new doodad to try and shave a second off there time and the shit breaks or falls off.
hell, I watched a match on TV once and it showed Jerry Micluek go down hard in a AR Match due to a CH that would not work...
Rhino
In my experience, I see gamer guns go down a lot..There always trying some new doodad to try and shave a second off there time and the shit breaks or falls off.
hell, I watched a match on TV once and it showed Jerry Micluek go down hard in a AR Match due to a CH that would not work...
I agree with Rhino. The top competitors have a serious incentive to make sure their guns are reliable. Malfunctions = lost stage = lost match and those eventually lead to lost sponsorhip and less income, etc. (Seeing Miculek's rifle go tits up is a good anecdote but not a representive sample of top competitors.)
But I would put a caveat on it. You do see middle of the pack competitors that have problems at matches. But it's for the same reason that I see the tacticool mall ninjas with guns that malfunction when they go to the range on Saturday. They tinker with their guns and break the cardinal rule of no untested equipment in a match. (In the mall ninja's case, it's no untested equipment at a zombie invasion ;) - was that too harsh?)
However, the top competitors, in my experience, tend to be meticulous about gear. Yes, they push the envelope on equipment (where do you think red dot scopes and free float tubes came from anyway?). But they are also test their equipment thoroughly before matches.
Anyway, it think it a moot point. Unless Lamb recommends a low mass bolt carrier, a JP trigger, adjustable gas block and an 18 or 20 inch barrel, then he's not recommending a "game gun" anyway. I would be suprised if he did recommend those thing. (Don't have the book yet, so I don't know.)
Originally posted by C4Igrant: Quote [There is a down side to the VT tubes. It is a gigantic heat sync. So you must shoot with gloves on for any kind of prolonged use. You also will not be able to attach anything to the rail that requires a M1913 Picatinny rail. C4]
I am a police officer and have been for the past 20 years. I have also tried several different free floating forends and I have found that the V-Tac forend are the best that I have found. I currently use them on my duty and training guns. I have three of these tubes on my guns. I have NO issues with them. They are a great tube. They give the operator more flexibility on where they want to place their gear. They are lighter than other types of free floating forends, which I feel allows the operator the ability to move quicker when engaging multiple targets. Additionally, they are extremely durable and strong. I have attended numerous classes using this forend and have not had any issues with strength or durability. In fact, we were using our guns to smash out car windows with the muzzel of our guns. The vertical forgrip that was attached to the tube broke and the V-Tac tube was still intact and showed no signs of weakness.
About a year ago, we my agency did a demonstration for about 100 prosecutors. During that day, I shot over 3000 rounds through two of my guns. One had one of the V-Tac forends on and the other had a Larue on it. I had some heat issues with the Larue. At the time, I had rail covers on it and it got so hot that we had to put it down and let it cool off.
The V-Tac forend had no problems managing the heat. In fact, I was very pleased with it ability to dissipate the heat.
Overall, this is an extremely well made forend and the concerns about durability, heat, strength, etc., are wrong.
Originally posted by C4Igrant : Quote [In order to mount a TD VG on it, you have to have the high neck on it. To date, I have not seen a TRUE M1913 rail out of them (and I do have these rails and tubes in stock).]
I also only use the Tango Down Vertical Foregrip on my V-Tac forend. You must be using wrong rail. Because, my VFG works fine on the V-Tac forend. I think that you are using the wrong rail. There are two different rails for this. One is for the front sight. It will not allow you to put a VFG grip on this one because it has to be lower on the forend to for the sights to be properly alligned. The other rails are made for the attachments, I.E. VFG, Lights, Lasers, etc. They are higher in order to accomidate the attachments.
You should probably check the packaging that the rails came in and it explains with rails are for which attachments. When in doubt, read the directions.
Not to divert from a VTAC tube vs rail debate, but if you liked SGM Lamb's book (as I did) you should have a look at this one,
authored by one of his "coworkers". Mine just arrived.
Amazing amount of info, and more technically focused than Green Eyes.
http://www.bhigear.com/productimages2/bh-012-003.jpg
http://www.bhigear.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3343&HS=1
GLOCKMASTER
04-06-08, 19:53
Not to divert from a VTAC tube vs rail debate, but if you liked SGM Lamb's book (as I did) you should have a look at this one,
authored by one of his "coworkers". Mine just arrived.
Amazing amount of info, and more technically focused than Green Eyes.
http://www.bhigear.com/productimages2/bh-012-003.jpg
http://www.bhigear.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3343&HS=1
I ordered my copy today from ATS Tactical Gear (http://www.atstacticalgear.com/istar.asp?a=6&id=BH-012!279). They have already sent me a tracking number. I'm looking forward to adding it to the collection right beside the Sgt. Maj.'s book.
LaRue is selling "Green Eyes and Black Rifles".
Might save a little by combining shipping.
I have attended numerous classes using this forend and have not had any issues with strength or durability. In fact, we were using our guns to smash out car windows with the muzzel of our guns. The vertical forgrip that was attached to the tube broke and the V-Tac tube was still intact and showed no signs of weakness.
Things that make you go hmmmm!
FYI - why would you not use the muzzle to clear glass out a window? Much better than getting glass chips in your stock then in your face...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Courses/PictureorVideo008.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Courses/PictureorVideo009.jpg
Work gun after a little window clearing action.
Erick Gelhaus
04-17-08, 08:59
Agree. Its already in your hands, why dump it to something else and then have to pick it back up ... ?
FYI - why would you not use the muzzle to clear glass out a window? Much better than getting glass chips in your stock then in your face...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Courses/PictureorVideo008.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Courses/PictureorVideo009.jpg
Work gun after a little window clearing action.
I wouldnt break glass with the muzzle. I might sweep it with the sides but I dont want to get glass inside of it.
Glass in your muzzle won't hurt anything. I've never seen glass inside my muzzle FWIW, by the time the glass shatters and separates my muzzle is already inside.
It's been an SOP for mil/LE for decades and has never been as issue that I have heard of or seen.
Glass in your muzzle won't hurt anything. I've never seen glass inside my muzzle FWIW, by the time the glass shatters and separates my muzzle is already inside.
It's been an SOP for mil/LE for decades and has never been as issue that I have heard of or seen.
I went back and reread I thought he said autoglass. There is no way im hitting that with my muzzle.
I've smashed more auto glass than anything, other than scratches on the barrel you;ll be good to go.
I've smashed more auto glass than anything, other than scratches on the barrel you;ll be good to go.
The only glass I have ever smashed with a weapon was house window glass during my mil days im not hitting any autoglass with my muzzle. Before my accident I owned an autoglass company for a few years and some of it is very tough. Some of the old dodge glass and Chevy glass took repeated bangs with a hammer to shatter.
NCPatrolAR
04-17-08, 20:06
There is a difference between the glass used on the side windows and the front. We smash windows and extract suspects all the time through the side and we dont have a problem with it. Now if we are going through the front; then yes there will be some problems.
There is a difference between the glass used on the side windows and the front. We smash windows and extract suspects all the time through the side and we dont have a problem with it. Now if we are going through the front; then yes there will be some problems.
Yeah forget the windshield but im talking some of the sideglass is strong lucky for you guys the modern stuff isnt as strong.
NCPatrolAR
04-17-08, 20:28
It helps when you with it with a hooligan also. ;)
I tried to bust out some windows on 5 ton dump trucks in Iraq with an ASP, to no avail. It took the hooly tool.
Jay Cunningham
04-17-08, 21:36
The Halligan Tool - don't leave home without it.
http://www.ticotitanium.com/fire.jpg
Zak tool's..... If all else fails, they make a haligan too.
http://www.zaktool.com/demos.html
http://www.zaktool.com/video/zak3.avi
Or you can be old school and carry a chuck of busted up spark plug (ceramic). Shatters tempered glass with a flick (learned from POS's using it to silently break windows when burging cars, but it works).
Zak tool's..... If all else fails, they make a haligan too.
http://www.zaktool.com/demos.html
http://www.zaktool.com/video/zak3.avi
Or you can be old school and carry a chuck of busted up spark plug (ceramic). Shatters tempered glass with a flick (learned from POS's using it to silently break windows when burging cars, but it works).
I was gonna say, a spring loaded center punch works pretty well too, I thought. I've seen a few "rescue" oriented knives which have these built into the handle.
Robb Jensen
04-17-08, 22:24
When I was a FireFighter we pronounced it Hali-gan as well.
Jay Cunningham
04-17-08, 22:32
When I was a FireFighter we pronounced it Hali-gan as well.
It gets pronounced both ways - I thought it was "hooligan" until we had specific training on it and learned that the firefighter who invented it was named Halligan.
NCPatrolAR
04-18-08, 00:43
"Holi" looks better on the briefing board than "Hali" :D
I've heard it pronounced both ways but we just tend to stick with "holi"
Razorhunter
05-18-08, 16:26
I cannot find any info online regarding this book. I simply want to know what all it covers? I have seen brief mention that I THINK mentioned something about using the M4 in combat, and I'm assuming it MIGHT consider drills, tac reloads, and things of that nature, but I was wondering if it covered anything else such as armorer work, maintanence (other than basic cleaning), etc.
How detailed is this book, and what does it cover?
On a seperate note, I was reading in one of my gun magazines, that the 2008 "Book of the AR15" is due out sometime soon, but I cannot for the life of me, find that little ad again, nor do I remember when it is scheduled to hit newstands? Can anyone help?
Thanks guys.
Jay Cunningham
05-18-08, 16:26
I cannot find any info online regarding this book. I simply want to know what all it covers? I have seen brief mention that I THINK mentioned something about using the M4 in combat, and I'm assuming it MIGHT consider drills, tac reloads, and things of that nature, but I was wondering if it covered anything else such as armorer work, maintanence (other than basic cleaning), etc.
How detailed is this book, and what does it cover?
On a seperate note, I was reading in one of my gun magazines, that the 2008 "Book of the AR15" is due out sometime soon, but I cannot for the life of me, find that little ad again, nor do I remember when it is scheduled to hit newstands? Can anyone help?
Thanks guys.
If you want to take a look at it, PM me your address.
There's quite a long thread in the training forum on it....
Big discussion here
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=11114&highlight=green+eyes
<snip>
On a seperate note, I was reading in one of my gun magazines, that the 2008 "Book of the AR15" is due out sometime soon, but I cannot for the life of me, find that little ad again, nor do I remember when it is scheduled to hit newstands? Can anyone help?
Thanks guys.
I just picked up the latest "Guns & Ammo" to read on a business trip and it has an ad for the 2008 "Book of the AR-15". According to the ad it will be on newsstands in June. Don't know what it will contain though.
Brian
Paul the Book of the AR15 is a totally different thing than GEBR. GEBR is a real book as opposed to a magazine and covers "How To's" from top to bottom. Its something im glad I added to my library.
Paul,
Kyle's book is written by a Tactical Shooter for Tactical Shooters or anyone wanting to improve their skills and tactics with the AR series. It is a complete guide to tactical shooting using this platform. It does not get into any armorer work beyond disassembly and cleaning.
Keep in mind that a book is no replacement for actual training with a competent instructor, but I wish this book had been available when I first started my path down this road 20 years ago. It is a great reference work that can be used to help you plan your training sessions.
Another good book along this line is the M16/M4 Handbook by Mike Pannone. I am so impressed with this book, my agency is ordering 50 of them to give to students attending our tactical rifle classes and our rifle instructor courses.
Both of these books should be in the library of anyone interested in this subject.
Hope this helps,
Rob
PS: This is my first post, thanks for having me.
ChandlerSniper158
05-18-08, 22:11
Theres alot of good info in GEBR.. definately worth picking up. Theres something for new shooters up to the more advanced. I carry mine in my backpack at work and read thru it from time to time.
Another pretty good read is "M16/M4 Handbook" by Mike Pannone. I got mine from Blackheart Intl.. not sure if any of the vendors who sponsor here carry it or not. Both are sitting on my desk next to me right now actually.
Good place to get it from.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=green+eyes
combo deal...
http://store.vikingtactics.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=VT01&Product_Code=VTAC-GEBR-COMBO&Category_Code=
I just picked up the latest "Guns & Ammo" to read on a business trip and it has an ad for the 2008 "Book of the AR-15". According to the ad it will be on newsstands in June. Don't know what it will contain though.
Brian
I have no idea what it'll contain either, but the ad I saw said it would be on newsstands June 1st.
Razorhunter
05-19-08, 06:36
Not sure if anyone here owns it, but another book I've always had interest in, is by Patrick Sweeney, and it covers mostly maintanence, and I THINK Armorer work.
I think I read that it covers complete teardown and rebuilds. Anyone ever purchased it? I saw it in either the Brownells or Midway catalog.
OldNavyGuy
05-19-08, 08:09
"Book of the AR-15". According to the ad it will be on newsstands in June. Don't know what it will contain though.
Brian
my guess it will have info on the "generic" term "AR-15", i have every annual issue, last years "Book of the AR-15" seemed to me more like advertising than real info, i hope this years "Book of the AR-15" contains some REAL info !!
Here's what a little searching turned up:
https://store.intermediaoutdoors.com/shop/ItemDetail.aspx?item=1OGAAR8&
It's not much, but it's SOMETHING. ;)
Razorhunter
05-20-08, 18:52
Cool,
They are showing it as already for sale? I wonder if it's really in stock?
On that note, does anyone know if Guns/Ammo would still have back issues of previous years Book of the AR15 in stock?
How many years have they been producing this special yearly magazine?
Battl3fr0nt
07-23-08, 02:41
Kyle's book is the best I have read on the broad subject for the employment of the rifle. It has been needed for a long time as unfortunately we have been bombarded with "trainers" that do not have the experience, base of knowledge and quite frankly the skill to speak at the level of which they have been allowed to.
It does not go into great detail as for as techniques go, more of a general over view. Several things written in it will not sit too well with a lot of the "tactical" trainers.
Here is another shooters view on it. http://http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001116
There is indeed a measurable difference in speed between "tube" sights like the Aimpoint and sights such as the Eotech, just like there is a measurable difference between RDS’s and 1-4x scopes. The more "tube'ish" an optic is- the slower it is to use. Whether ones skill level allows them to realize it, is the question. If someone is running 1 to 1.5 second one shot drills at 7 yards, any advantage is "lost in the noise" so to speak. However if one is in the .4-.5 of a second range, it is very noticeable.
That is well put.. That is also why the ACOG is so much faster then a scope type optic.. But, I must say the Aimpoint tube is short and I myself like it better then the EOTech but im a ACOG guy and once you go ACOG you can't go back lol.. But if I where going to use a red dot agian I would go with the Aimpoint. not only cuz it can take more then a EOTech it is just what I like.. I see it as it is 90% the shooter and 10% his gear.. I will be picking up the book this weekend.
HolyRoller
07-23-08, 09:33
Dude ... seriously ... this ACOG obsession is annoying. Beyond annoying.
There are millions of other AR related things to talk about besides ACOGs.
Battl3fr0nt
07-25-08, 04:05
lol, clam down buddy.. no one is making you look at this thread.. if you dont like to hear peoples opinions then you should not be here in the first place... and what is your hate with the ACOG? anytime someone posts about one you get all freaked out, lol
30 cal slut
07-28-08, 09:10
i've had this book for a few weeks now.
i have to say, after a few carbine and pistol courses under my belt, i've found this to be a solid reference that by and large is consistent with the training i've received.
i'm not sure how one would gain much knowledge from the book on a purely standalone basis, but as a textbook supplement to live hands-on training, it's a nice resource to have.
and the book serves another useful function by pissing off all the commie libs on the commuter train sitting next to me on my way into midtown manhattan. :eek: :D
Not to divert from a VTAC tube vs rail debate, but if you liked SGM Lamb's book (as I did) you should have a look at this one,
authored by one of his "coworkers". Mine just arrived.
Amazing amount of info, and more technically focused than Green Eyes.
http://www.bhigear.com/productimages2/bh-012-003.jpg
http://www.bhigear.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3343&HS=1
Just tossed that one in the basket before checking out with LaRue on Saturday.
My employer will buy SGM Lamb's book for me, as well as MSG Howe's.
Or you can be old school and carry a chuck of busted up spark plug (ceramic). Shatters tempered glass with a flick (learned from POS's using it to silently break windows when burging cars, but it works).
Pic?
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