View Full Version : M1A Accuracy Expectations
I have a Springfield M1A loaded model with stainless air-guaged barrel, ARMS #18 mount, Leupold QRW Rings, and Leupold VXIII 4.5-14 scope. It has a rubber recoil buffer in it right now as well. The best I have been able to get out of this combo is about a 2" group at 100 yards with premium ammo. Is this typical accuracy for a loaded model? I was expecting it to do better than that.
Are there any easy (read inexpensive or free) things I can do to make this a 1 MOA gun?
Thanks for your help.
Misc Ex-Member
06-04-08, 21:44
2 moa sounds pretty good.
You can probably tighten it up, but that involves unitizing the gas system, glass bedding the action in the stock and myriad other EXPENSIVE modifications.
;)
It depends on what you want to do with it. Based on what a buddy said who has used these operationally, leave it alone and enjoy it as is.
LonghunterCO
06-04-08, 23:01
I would echo Katars comments, that's pretty good. I would add trying different ammo types and if you reload work on a "match Load" for it.
Thanks for the replies. This helps me set my expectations a little better. I had expected this rifle to be able to do 1 MOA-ish pretty easily and thought there might be something wrong. I'm going to take apart and reinstall the mount and switch out the rings since they keep shooting loose. I'm also going to work on the scope position and cheek pad to make it a little easier to position my head consistently.
I might try bedding the stock and a few other things. I would like to get this to be a 1" rifle at some point.
Thanks again for your help and suggestions.
Gutshot John
06-05-08, 17:42
There was a reason the Army dropped the M14 as their primary sniper system. Semis are a lot harder to make into a hyper-accurate weapon. It's perfectly adequate in the squad support role but you can spend a lot of coin and still not significantly improve a loaded M1A's inherent accuracy. 2MOA seems pretty respectable.
Assuming you haven't had any (correct me if I'm wrong) but I'd maybe start with a battle rifle class and see if that improves things first. It might also be a good resource for where you should invest your money to see the largest payoff.
If you're really sure it's the M1A, than a specialist gunsmith upgrade (Smith Enterprises) with a new krieger barrel would be the place I'd start...of course you're going to drop $600-700...to start.
Sure you wouldn't want a FAL? :D
I'm not the best shooter in the world but I can keep my AR in an inch at the distance I'm getting 2 out of the M1A - although I would certainly learn a lot from any class. Before I would drop $600 or $800 into this rifle I would pick up something different.
Are FAL'smore accurate than the M14/M1A? If I didn't already have all the extra magazines and parts I would probably just sell the M1a and get something else.
Gutshot John
06-05-08, 21:36
I'm not the best shooter in the world but I can keep my AR in an inch at the distance I'm getting 2 out of the M1A - although I would certainly learn a lot from any class. Before I would drop $600 or $800 into this rifle I would pick up something different.
Are FAL'smore accurate than the M14/M1A? If I didn't already have all the extra magazines and parts I would probably just sell the M1a and get something else.
Try not to think of it in those terms. They're not "more" accurate, just more accurate for the same money.
An M14 probably has more potential accuracy, but for a lot less money you can get a FAL that's approximately the same. Does that make sense?
All things being equal an AR has higher inherent and potential accuracy than both out to 100 yards so it's not really a fair comparison to either.
John,
That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for your insight.
Echoing some of the above, the M1A/M14 ruled the line at Camp Perry long after it was out of service, but they take a bit work to make them shoot 1moa. Once the heavy bullets for the AR15/M16 came on-line the M1A/M14 went, sadly, by the boards in competitive shooting.
Also, very long range point of view, the scope mount situation has never been great.
Are there any easy (read inexpensive or free) things I can do to make this a 1 MOA gun?
No, but you should be able to cut the group size in half by installing the action in a SAGE EBR.
If you are handy, a good resource is "The M14 Owner's Guide" by Scott Duff and John Miller. It has a ton of info including a chapter on match conditioning. If you don't feel comfortable doing the work yourself, try the guys at Fulton Armory.
Misc Ex-Member
06-06-08, 14:11
Not cheap either:
http://www.jae100.com/index/1111new2.jpg
http://www.jae100.com/jae100gen2pricing.htm
Gutshot John
06-06-08, 14:14
No, but you should be able to cut the group size in half by installing the action in a SAGE EBR.
Are you sure? I'm not saying you're wrong but 2MOA to 1MOA just by adding a stock seems excessively simple.
I've no experience with the EBR but that must be one heck of a stock.
Are you sure? I'm not saying you're wrong but 2MOA to 1MOA just by adding a stock seems excessively simple.
I've no experience with the EBR but that must be one heck of a stock.
Yes, I'm sure. The SAGE EBR has proven itself to cut group size in half.
The action is tension bedded, the barrel is semi free floated forward of the op rod guide block and the gas system is tightly shimmed.
Not your typical M14 action, but my CRAZY HORSE® US NAVY MK14 SEI MOD 0 will shoot sub MOA with Portuguese NATO ball.
http://www.athenswater.com/images/MK14_SEI_Mod-0-.jpg
Additional information on SAGE EBR stocks is published HERE (http://www.athenswater.com/M1A_Scout_Squad_EBR.htm)
Smith Enterprise, Inc. has a few tricks up their sleeves when it come to making an accurate M14.
The M21A5/C-IED LRPR is able to shoot sub MOA groups @ 1000 yards with M118LR.
USGI synthetic stock without any bedding ...
Gutshot John
06-06-08, 14:36
I think I understand now. Yes I'm sure you can get that accuracy from that rifle, but I think he's looking at a standard SA receiver/barrel combination.
If I understand the specs from the website correctly your crazy horse has a Norinco, but I'd bet it's been heat treated, even if not you also have a much nicer barrel on that rifle and it's been professionally accurized.
I'm guessing that to convert his rifle to that spec will cost him at least $1K.
If however you know of a rifle that was "bone stock" before and shot 2MOA, while adding the EBR halved it, I'd be interested in hearing more.
Yes, I'm sure. The SAGE EBR has proven itself to cut group size in half.
The action is tension bedded, the barrel is semi free floated forward of the op rod guide block and the gas system is tightly shimmed.
Not your typical M14 action, but my CRAZY HORSE® US NAVY MK14 SEI MOD 0 will shoot sub MOA with Portuguese NATO ball.
http://www.athenswater.com/images/MK14_SEI_Mod-0-.jpg
Additional information on SAGE EBR stocks is published HERE (http://www.athenswater.com/M1A_Scout_Squad_EBR.htm)
Smith Enterprise, Inc. has a few tricks up their sleeves when it come to making an accurate M14.
The M21A5/C-IED LRPR is able to shoot sub MOA groups @ 1000 yards with M118LR.
USGI synthetic stock without any bedding ...
If however you know of a rifle that was "bone stock" before and shot 2MOA, while adding the EBR halved it, I'd be interested in hearing more.
Yep, I put my bone stock Springfield Scout Squad in a SAGE EBR and it did cut the groups in half with no other modifications.
This was my very first EBR . . . All that is pictured is long gone, but you get the Idea
http://www.athenswater.com/images/M1AEBRMC.JPG
My personal favorite :)
http://www.athenswater.com/images/MK14_SEI_Mod-1-.jpg
I would suggest a USGI synthetic stock with RRM, but they are no longer being built.
http://www.athenswater.com/images/TDonM14.jpg
Though not nearly a match rifle - I also cut my group size significantly, (I won't claim half, but super-noticeable), when I added the Troy MCS....
Though not nearly a match rifle - I also cut my group size significantly, (I won't claim half, but super-noticeable), when I added the Troy MCS....
The MCS is an excellent system, however I found that it needs to be tuned and adjusted to the individual weapon.
Tony (LAW483) knows more about the M14 MCS than anyone and he is happy to help owners extract the most from the stock.
I have a Springfield M1A loaded model with stainless air-guaged barrel, ARMS #18 mount, Leupold QRW Rings, and Leupold VXIII 4.5-14 scope. It has a rubber recoil buffer in it right now as well. The best I have been able to get out of this combo is about a 2" group at 100 yards with premium ammo. Is this typical accuracy for a loaded model? I was expecting it to do better than that.
Are there any easy (read inexpensive or free) things I can do to make this a 1 MOA gun?
Thanks for your help.
I had a similar setup except it was bedded in a McMillan M3A by IBA and was getting 1.5MOA groups at best. I too expected better so I sold the stock, removed the Leopold and replaced them with a GI fiberglass stock and a Trijicon Accupoint. I am much happier with this setup as I don't look for the same type of accuracy as from a bolt gun. If you want a gas gun that is accurate, I'd look to an AR-10 style and for the money and performance it is hard to beat GAP's rifle.
I have an early 90s rack grade and If I did my part, with proper ammo, it would shoot MOA. One of the problems with the M1/M14/M1a systems is that every time you field strip the weapon, you weaken the bedding. Some of the newer modular stocks may have solved this problem, however.
True on the bedding getting worse with each disassembly. Ammo selection can be crucial with this platform. Glen Zideker has some good info on his web site about the M14. Can't remember the site address but I am sure that Google will!
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