View Full Version : New & Newer CMMG Barrels
What's the difference between CMMG's "new production" and "new production Milspec" barrels? They seem to have the same features and been through the same testing. Could it be the gas port size?
Are they slowly facing out the older "new production" and replacing it with the "new production Milspec" barrels?
Where did you get/see this information? I can't say I've heard anything to date.
I'm still waiting for my 16" mid-length lightweight to get here. :(
What wasn't milspec about them before?
What wasn't milspec about them before?
Just about everything (steel, testing, etc).
C4
Just about everything (steel, testing, etc).
C4
What was the issue with the steel?
Robb Jensen
08-02-08, 20:45
What was the issue with the steel?
For the vast majority (aka 99%) of people the barrel steel is fine with CMMG barrels. 10% of the people who think they need better than CMMG don't and the other 89% couldn't tell you the difference between CMMG and Colt/BCM or LMT nor why you would want the latter............YMMV.
I'm just sayin' ;)
Sure I do wear out barrels about every 10-15K rounds with non-milspec steel, yada yada yada with my 3gun rifle. They headspace fine when I replace them but the throat is so far gone, that they shoot patterns instead of groups. It's not from the quality of the steel that I wear out barrels it is the way that I use them, 60 rounds though it in 45 seconds A LOT wears out the throat faster than 60 rounds in 45 minutes. The throat is gone and sure I could continue use of them for the vast majority of the 3gun shooting and training that I do (which is typically 150yds in and closer). When I replace a barrel on my 3gun rifle most of them will still keep a 3-4" group or slightly better at 100yds. BUT sometimes I shoot matches that include targets at 300yds+ so I want to be damn sure I can hit those targets making sure it's not a hardware problem if I miss that far out. I want to make sure it's a software problem and not a hardware problem and that it's the indian and not the arrow. As always YMMV.
I'm still waiting for my 16" mid-length lightweight to get here. :(
Me, too. I ordered on built on an A2 upper in the middle of May. I just heard last week that it "fell through the cracks." Now it should have shipped yesterday. Maybe next week I'll have it...
Ben
Just about everything (steel, testing, etc).
C4
But those problems have been corrected right? Any idea when they made the switch? I've never heard (besides the chart) that anything other than 4150 was used, well at least not lately. :)
It'd be nice if the OP would stop by and explain what he meant. Not that it's a huge deal, but I'm a bit curious at this point.
What was the issue with the steel?
It is not mil-spec. They also do not HPT each and every barrel.
C4
It is not mil-spec. They also do not HPT each and every barrel.
C4
Does mil-spec refer specifically to the steel (4150 I believe), or a process or refinement?
Does mil-spec refer specifically to the steel (4150 I believe), or a process or refinement?
Read this: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=37
C4
Read this: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=37
C4
Thank you! :D
Its on their site. Youll see the new milspec with bigger photos and the older ones with thumbnail type pics.
Reading your threads, Im guessing the new milspec ones are all tested individually rather than by batch which I guess is what they used to do with the old ones.
My other question now is whether the gas port size has changed as well. Assuming what I have read in the past is true, that milspec barrels tend to have smaller gas ports?
Its on their site. Youll see the new milspec with bigger photos and the older ones with thumbnail type pics.
Reading your threads, Im guessing the new milspec ones are all tested individually rather than by batch which I guess is what they used to do with the old ones.
My other question now is whether the gas port size has changed as well. Assuming what I have read in the past is true, that milspec barrels tend to have smaller gas ports?
That is a lot of assuming without any proof.
Questions to ask barrel makers:
1. Which steel do you use? If it is any of the steel that is listed in MIL-B-11595E, ask to see the certs on it.
2. What testing do you do? Do you HPT and MP? Do you do EVERY barrel? What is their acceptance criteria?
3. What is the gas port size on their barrels?
As far as I can see on their website, there is no mention of the barrel steel and I see zero mention of high pressure testing.
C4
Thanks for pointing out those points.
I dont shoot that often and when I do, I let the barrel cool down between clips.:D
For the vast majority (aka 99%) of people the barrel steel is fine with CMMG barrels. 10% of the people who think they need better than CMMG don't and the other 89% couldn't tell you the difference between CMMG and Colt/BCM or LMT nor why you would want the latter............YMMV.
I'm just sayin' ;)
Sure I do wear out barrels about every 10-15K rounds with non-milspec steel, yada yada yada with my 3gun rifle. They headspace fine when I replace them but the throat is so far gone, that they shoot patterns instead of groups. It's not from the quality of the steel that I wear out barrels it is the way that I use them, 60 rounds though it in 45 seconds A LOT wears out the throat faster than 60 rounds in 45 minutes. The throat is gone and sure I could continue use of them for the vast majority of the 3gun shooting and training that I do (which is typically 150yds in and closer). When I replace a barrel on my 3gun rifle most of them will still keep a 3-4" group or slightly better at 100yds. BUT sometimes I shoot matches that include targets at 300yds+ so I want to be damn sure I can hit those targets making sure it's not a hardware problem if I miss that far out. I want to make sure it's a software problem and not a hardware problem and that it's the indian and not the arrow. As always YMMV.
that said, would it make more sense for you to go through a bunch of 250 dollar CMMG barrels or 600 dollar noveske barrels? :confused: ie does the noveske last twice as long?
if money isn't the point here, i fully understand that. just a question.
Robb Jensen
08-04-08, 18:59
that said, would it make more sense for you to go through a bunch of 250 dollar CMMG barrels or 600 dollar noveske barrels? :confused: ie does the noveske last twice as long?
if money isn't the point here, i fully understand that. just a question.
All barrels will wear out quickly in the fashion that I shoot them in 3gun. I'm quite certain that a Noveske wouldn't last as long, actually it would probably wear out quicker in the throat area vs. a chrome lined barrel.
Noveske vs. a chrome lined CMMG is an apples vs. oranges comparison.
Noveske vs. a stainless CMMG/WOA/RRA/Lilja/Sabre would be apples to apples.
We'll see how long my new stainless 18" White Oak (WOA) SPR barrel will last, it cost me about $200 less than a 18" stainless Noveske SPR barrel and about $150 less than a Sabre Defence 18" stainless barrel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/WOAon3gunrifle.jpg
Remember911
08-04-08, 20:01
I have to say they have a new gimmic or copy of someones idea every other week. I say do somthing good and stick with it. No bells and whistle. That is what Savage arms learned back in the 80's. along with good CS. service.:o
Its on their site. Youll see the new milspec with bigger photos and the older ones with thumbnail type pics.
Reading your threads, Im guessing the new milspec ones are all tested individually rather than by batch which I guess is what they used to do with the old ones.
My other question now is whether the gas port size has changed as well. Assuming what I have read in the past is true, that milspec barrels tend to have smaller gas ports?
Wait, so you're assuming that they've changed their products because of the word "new" and the larger pictures? The pictures haven't changed, they've just increased the size (you could always enlarge the old thumbnails). The descriptions are the same as well. I compared this against a print-out I have from a few months back.
Though feel free to determine if anything has changed (or Grant's criteria) if you give them a call. I for one would appreciate it.
All barrels will wear out quickly in the fashion that I shoot them in 3gun. I'm quite certain that a Noveske wouldn't last as long, actually it would probably wear out quicker in the throat area vs. a chrome lined barrel.
Noveske vs. a chrome lined CMMG is an apples vs. oranges comparison.
Noveske vs. a stainless CMMG/WOA/RRA/Lilja/Sabre would be apples to apples.
We'll see how long my new stainless 18" White Oak (WOA) SPR barrel will last, it cost me about $200 less than a 18" stainless Noveske SPR barrel and about $150 less than a Sabre Defence 18" stainless barrel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/WOAon3gunrifle.jpg
you notice quite a bit of difference in group size with the SS barrels vs. chromed?
over the rifle's lifespan i'd imagine chrome would hold a little tighter.
so how about noveske chromed vs. cmmg chromed?
Robb Jensen
08-05-08, 06:39
you notice quite a bit of difference in group size with the SS barrels vs. chromed?
over the rifle's lifespan i'd imagine chrome would hold a little tighter.
so how about noveske chromed vs. cmmg chromed?
I do notice a pretty big increase in accuracy with stainless barrels (most have .223Wylde or better chamber) over chrome lined, I also notice that non-chromed barrels are more accurate than chrome-lined. There's a pretty big difference in .223Wylde chambers and 5.56mm NATO chambers (this is really noticeable at 200yds+.
It's harder to tell the difference at 100yds, for that I use a 4.5-16x scope Leupold or a Nightforce 12-42x scope.
This WOA barrel is the first barrel that I'll be putting several thousands of rounds through within a 1.5yr or so. We'll see how it holds up, I'm sure it'll be fine since it's starting as a more accurate barrel from the get go. I didn't quite need a new barrel just yet but if I make it to the Ft Benning 3gun match this year we'll be shooting out to 600yds. For that I'll be using 77gr Black Hills or 75gr Priv.
Thanks for pointing out those points.
I dont shoot that often and when I do, I let the barrel cool down between clips.:D
Uh clips? They are called magazines. ;)
C4
that said, would it make more sense for you to go through a bunch of 250 dollar CMMG barrels or 600 dollar noveske barrels? :confused: ie does the noveske last twice as long?
if money isn't the point here, i fully understand that. just a question.
First, Noveske barrels come out to about only $380-$400. They will last twice as long as anything else and from we have seen, the N4's are capablie of .7-.80" groups. I have seen a lot of other SS barrel makers shoot well above that.
You do get what you pay for in barrels.
C4
I have a Noveske N4 Basic that shoots under 3/4" at 50 yards with PMC Bronze 55 gr "plinker" ammo.
Its good enough for me. I'm curious to see how well it will group at 100 yards with some heavier pills.
Guess that will have to wait until the next range session :)
I have a Noveske N4 Basic that shoots under 3/4" at 50 yards with PMC Bronze 55 gr "plinker" ammo.
Its good enough for me. I'm curious to see how well it will group at 100 yards with some heavier pills.
Guess that will have to wait until the next range session :)
I have shot 16" N4's at 200yds with MK262 and gotten groups around 1.9". I have customers that tell me they have gotten groups down to .70 @100yds. IMHO, there is not need for SS barrels any more.
C4
First, Noveske barrels come out to about only $380-$400. They will last twice as long as anything else and from we have seen, the N4's are capablie of .7-.80" groups. I have seen a lot of other SS barrel makers shoot well above that.
You do get what you pay for in barrels.
C4
that pretty much answers my question...
i know noveske doesn't sell their chromed light recce barrel seperate on their site, but can i order one from you?
that pretty much answers my question...
i know noveske doesn't sell their chromed light recce barrel seperate on their site, but can i order one from you?
Noveske does not allow us to sell stripped barrels, but we can put something together using your upper, BCG, rail, etc.
C4
Noveske does not allow us to sell stripped barrels, but we can put something together using your upper, BCG, rail, etc.
C4
ooh.
well that's interesting. :)
they basically don't want their barrels thrown into some homebuild and then slandered for being "unreliable" i take it?
my ideal setup would include a Vltor monolithic upper.. but... blah. money.
i saw that you have a recce upper with no bolt/carrier/charging handle. that might be a good way to go. :)
ooh.
well that's interesting. :)
they basically don't want their barrels thrown into some homebuild and then slandered for being "unreliable" i take it?
my ideal setup would include a Vltor monolithic upper.. but... blah. money.
i saw that you have a recce upper with no bolt/carrier/charging handle. that might be a good way to go. :)
There are a lot of MORONS out there that do not know how to properly build an upper and Noveske doesn't want them buy just the barrel, screwing it up and then posting all over the errornet that the N4 barrel sucks.
We have the N4 16" middy uppers in stock currently.
C4
There are a lot of MORONS out there that do not know how to properly build an upper and Noveske doesn't want them buy just the barrel, screwing it up and then posting all over the errornet that the N4 barrel sucks.
We have the N4 16" middy uppers in stock currently.
C4
perfectly understandable.
i gotta move to CO and buy a glock19. after that. sick AR time. :cool:
probably february-ish. depending of course on political climate. :rolleyes:
Remember911
08-06-08, 09:59
There are a lot of MORONS out there that do not know how to properly build an upper and Noveske doesn't want them buy just the barrel, screwing it up and then posting all over the errornet that the N4 barrel sucks.
We have the N4 16" middy uppers in stock currently.
C4 Amen. On that statment
Beat Trash
08-09-08, 09:46
I know this might be a little off topic, but assuming the same type of shooting in both,
will a Noveske N4 barrel wear at about the same rate as a Colt barrel? Or would the heavier chrome lining of the Noveske improve the service life of the barrel?
I know this might be a little off topic, but assuming the same type of shooting in both,
will a Noveske N4 barrel wear at about the same rate as a Colt barrel? Or would the heavier chrome lining of the Noveske improve the service life of the barrel?
the heavier chrome should last longer. it's the same style chrome as the M249 machine gun barrels have. that's way harder use than most M4's ever see.
Beat Trash
08-09-08, 12:51
the heavier chrome should last longer. it's the same style chrome as the M249 machine gun barrels have. that's way harder use than most M4's ever see.
Thanks...
I have shot 16" N4's at 200yds with MK262 and gotten groups around 1.9". I have customers that tell me they have gotten groups down to .70 @100yds. IMHO, there is not need for SS barrels any more.
C4
Very true about the SS barrels I have several 16" LMT's that are Sub MOA.
It is not mil-spec. They also do not HPT each and every barrel.
C4
Lets brake it down (((mil-spec))): Military – specification > Military specifications change all the time, by the branch of service they are manufacturing for, along with the application it will be used for. Light weight for load reduction, or short for CQB, Heavy for extended hi rate of fire. As for as the mil-spec goes. Here today gone tomorrow>
Lets brake it down (((mil-spec))): Military – specification > Military specifications change all the time, by the branch of service they are manufacturing for, along with the application it will be used for. Light weight for load reduction, or short for CQB, Heavy for extended hi rate of fire. As for as the mil-spec goes. Here today gone tomorrow>
Correct, but what it always boils down to quality. There are a few simply things that define quality. No matter what the barrel profile weight or length is, the standard is still the same.
C4
And the sad part about it is the Military don’t always get the Quality. It sometimes is the lowest bidder.
Noveske does not allow us to sell stripped barrels, but we can put something together using your upper, BCG, rail, etc.
C4
if i sent in an upper what would be the cost for a 16" N4 middy barrel, labor, shipping?
And the sad part about it is the Military don’t always get the Quality. It sometimes is the lowest bidder.
They do not, but the Military has really gone to "best value" instead of lowest bidder. When I worked the USAF AOC Weapon System, I managed and help award Million dollar contracts. We did NOT go with the cheapest bidder.
C4
if i sent in an upper what would be the cost for a 16" N4 middy barrel, labor, shipping?
Shoot me an e-mail and we can discuss specifics and keep this thread on topic.
C4
That is a lot of assuming without any proof.
Questions to ask barrel makers:
1. Which steel do you use? If it is any of the steel that is listed in MIL-B-11595E, ask to see the certs on it.
2. What testing do you do? Do you HPT and MP? Do you do EVERY barrel? What is their acceptance criteria?
3. What is the gas port size on their barrels?
As far as I can see on their website, there is no mention of the barrel steel and I see zero mention of high pressure testing.
C4
Back on topic here...
Could somebody please explain to a layman (me) the benefits for the end consumer (me) of high-pressure testing and magnetic particle testing? Or rather, what's the downside of NOT doing these tests?
Ben
Back on topic here...
Could somebody please explain to a layman (me) the benefits for the end consumer (me) of high-pressure testing and magnetic particle testing? Or rather, what's the downside of NOT doing these tests?
Ben
To put it as simply as possible, it means that the barrel and bolt steel have been tested to make sure that there are no flaws in it.
C4
To put it as simply as possible, it means that the barrel and bolt steel have been tested to make sure that there are no flaws in it.
C4
OK, I get that, but what kinds of flaws are we talking about here? Are these flaws that wouldn't be exposed by test firing? Are these really flaws that could result in catastrophic failures? I don't hear much about DPMS or other "low-grade" barrels just blowing up.
In a nutshell: is there any benefit to me, the end consumer, in having a barrel HP and MP tested?
Or is all this "mil-spec" rhetoric just Kool-Aid?
Ben
OK, I get that, but what kinds of flaws are we talking about here? Are these flaws that wouldn't be exposed by test firing? Are these really flaws that could result in catastrophic failures? I don't hear much about DPMS or other "low-grade" barrels just blowing up.
In a nutshell: is there any benefit to me, the end consumer, in having a barrel HP and MP tested?
Or is all this "mil-spec" rhetoric just Kool-Aid?
Ben
Flaws equals cracks in the barrel steel and yes this can lead to very bad things. CMMG also uses much cheaper barrel steel than say BCM, LMT, Noveske and Colt.
Think of HP/MP as a good way to figure out if the manufacturer believes that they have a good product not. If they do not test their barrels then they either don't want to know the answer or don't care. Either way, this should be a red flag to the consumer.
No on the Kool-Aid. Think of the Mil-Standard as the ENTRY LEVEL for how a barrel and bolt should be made and tested. To go above this ENTRY LEVEL standard is great, but to go below it is a no no (as it is the lowest quality that the US Govt would accept in a fighting gun).
C4
Flaws equals cracks in the barrel steel and yes this can lead to very bad things. CMMG also uses much cheaper barrel steel than say BCM, LMT, Noveske and Colt.
Think of HP/MP as a good way to figure out if the manufacturer believes that they have a good product not. If they do not test their barrels then they either don't want to know the answer or don't care. Either way, this should be a red flag to the consumer.
No on the Kool-Aid. Think of the Mil-Standard as the ENTRY LEVEL for how a barrel and bolt should be made and tested. To go above this ENTRY LEVEL standard is great, but to go below it is a no no (as it is the lowest quality that the US Govt would accept in a fighting gun).
C4
Excuse my skepticism, but this seems a bit overkill. I've heard of barrels being untrue, gas ports in the wrong spots, chambers being machined incorrectly, chrome flaking, front sight bases off-canter, flash hider threads stripped, etc. etc. etc., but I've never heard of barrels cracking. Perhaps I'm just not paying enough attention...
Otherwise, a lot of Mil-Spec sounds like Kool-Aid to me — this is the most absurd bureaucracy in the world, after all.
Just today one of the MagPul guys was just making fun of what he calls the military's "flaming vaseline drop test" regarding the melting point of a PMAG: "Milspec is stupid." It's not as if MagPul doesn't believe in their product.
Convince me. Tell me about all the cracked barrels from manufacturers who don't do all these tests.
Ben
Ben
It is true that our government does go overboard sometimes in there specs. that they set for some of the equipment. But strict standards and testing on barrel steel and the quality of the barrels that are used in our militaries weapons is very important, it keeps the manufactures on there toes and insures that the soldier gets the best weapon he can made with the best materials.
On the civilian side do we need mil.spec., no not hardly, we will never run our weapons as hard and subject them to the same environments as the military does, we will never depend on our weapons for our life like they do. But for some folks they just like to know they have the same level of standards as our mighty military...................AD
Excuse my skepticism, but this seems a bit overkill. I've heard of barrels being untrue, gas ports in the wrong spots, chambers being machined incorrectly, chrome flaking, front sight bases off-canter, flash hider threads stripped, etc. etc. etc., but I've never heard of barrels cracking. Perhaps I'm just not paying enough attention...
Otherwise, a lot of Mil-Spec sounds like Kool-Aid to me — this is the most absurd bureaucracy in the world, after all.
Just today one of the MagPul guys was just making fun of what he calls the military's "flaming vaseline drop test" regarding the melting point of a PMAG: "Milspec is stupid." It's not as if MagPul doesn't believe in their product.
Convince me. Tell me about all the cracked barrels from manufacturers who don't do all these tests.
Ben
Think of it as a standard to follow to ensure you are getting a quality item. Also think of it as the LOWEST standard there is. If a manufacturer has no standard to follow, then you get what you get. Meaning, they follow the standard that is the cheapest and puts the most money in their pockets.
Companies that follow TDP have a standard to follow which helps insure that you are getting a quality product.
C4
hillmillenia
08-13-08, 23:11
On the civilian side do we need mil.spec., no not hardly, we will never run our weapons as hard and subject them to the same environments as the military does, we will never depend on our weapons for our life like they do. But for some folks they just like to know they have the same level of standards as our mighty military...................AD
How can you make a statement like that? I'm no survivalist, weekend warrior militialist, but we are Americans with a bill of rights that has been diluted over time. A law abiding citizen should be able to walk into any gun store in the country and buy a machine gun if he's so inclined. Don't misunderstand, I would personally not want to feed one and a semi-auto rifle suits my needs but I'd like to know it's on a par with the same quality our manufacturers can produce for the military.:(
Think of it as a standard to follow to ensure you are getting a quality item. Also think of it as the LOWEST standard there is. If a manufacturer has no standard to follow, then you get what you get. Meaning, they follow the standard that is the cheapest and puts the most money in their pockets.
Companies that follow TDP have a standard to follow which helps insure that you are getting a quality product.
C4
Sorry, but I still don't get it. There are lots of non-military-style guns that aren't built to any DoD standard, and you can hardly mean that none of them are quality products.
Back to the point of the thread: is there really some epidemic of AR barrels cracking or otherwise catastrophically failing that would justify high pressure/magnetic particle testing every one, or is this just a DoD "flaming vaseline drop test?"
Put another way: does anybody but the DoD spec high pressure/magnetic particle testing of every barrel and bolt?
Ben
How can you make a statement like that? I'm no survivalist, weekend warrior militialist, but we are Americans with a bill of rights that has been diluted over time. A law abiding citizen should be able to walk into any gun store in the country and buy a machine gun if he's so inclined. Don't misunderstand, I would personally not want to feed one and a semi-auto rifle suits my needs but I'd like to know it's on a par with the same quality our manufacturers can produce for the military.:(
I couldn't agree with you more about our bill of rights and should be able to own Auto weapons if we wish! Yes our rights have slowly been taken from us.
What I am saying is most of the AR community owners are not going to abuse there ARs like the military does, and most of the standard 4140 steel barrels on the market will serve them very well, they dont see the need to spend the extra $$ for a mil.spec. weapon.
I also stated the same thing you did, some of us just like knowing that we have the same mil.spec. weapons our military has, the best we can get at any cost!
Sorry, but I still don't get it. There are lots of non-military-style guns that aren't built to any DoD standard, and you can hardly mean that none of them are quality products.
Back to the point of the thread: is there really some epidemic of AR barrels cracking or otherwise catastrophically failing that would justify high pressure/magnetic particle testing every one, or is this just a DoD "flaming vaseline drop test?"
Put another way: does anybody but the DoD spec high pressure/magnetic particle testing of every barrel and bolt?
Ben
I can see that you do not get it. How do you know that there are guns that the Military is using that are not built to .Mil specs? Which ones?
I do believe that there are are a lot of cracked barrels out there (from talking with various manufacturers about their rejection rates). The reason they are not found more is that a lot of Civy shooters do not shoot a lot.
Again, think of the TDP as a baseline to follow. If a company is not following it, then they putting out a lessor quality product. It is that simple.
C4
I can see that you do not get it.
If I may, I believe what he may be referring to Grant, is that manufacturers like Weatherby, Remington, Marlin, and Winchester put out what are considered to be quality firearms and they most likely do not HP/MPI their barrels (at least not each one).
There is a big difference between firearms that are used for recreation and those that are used as tools of security (be that military, LE, or PSD). I believe it's been pointed out, on more than one occassion, that a good test for a firearm, that's going to be used as a security tool, is a good 2-3 day course of instruction. If it handles about a 1000 rounds over two days, then it's probably going to hold up well in other environments.
FWIW, I'd be willing to bet that the failure rate of non-TDP AR's is probably on on par with other recreational firearms such as a Winchester Model 94, Remington 700, or Weatherby Mark V. However, it should be noted that most Model 94's aren't taken to a tactical carbine course thinking they would be "as good as" a TDP following AR. And therein lies the issue with non-TDP AR's. Folks think because they look alike, that they are constructed alike. And, as we know, this is not the case.
RMECPN that is probably the best explanation of TDP v. Hobby that I have read.
hillmillenia
08-14-08, 18:11
RMECPN that is probably the best explanation of TDP v. Hobby that I have read.
#1 that!. I should probably use my soap box for a target practice...:o
If I may, I believe what he may be referring to Grant, is that manufacturers like Weatherby, Remington, Marlin, and Winchester put out what are considered to be quality firearms and they most likely do not HP/MPI their barrels (at least not each one).
Yes, this is what I meant. And I bet there are a lot of shotgunners out there who do go through 1,000s of rounds (even 1,000s of rounds in a weekend). Yes, I know that shotguns don't develop the kind of pressure that 5.56mm does...
And maybe there are lots of AR barrels cracking and failing out there, but I can't ever remember hearing/seeing about a single one. Can somebody point me to an example and make a believer out of me?
RMECPN that is probably the best explanation of TDP v. Hobby that I have read.
OK, I googled it and got nothing. I give up. What's RMECPN?
Ben
Yes, this is what I meant. And I bet there are a lot of shotgunners out there who do go through 1,000s of rounds (even 1,000s of rounds in a weekend). Yes, I know that shotguns don't develop the kind of pressure that 5.56mm does...
And maybe there are lots of AR barrels cracking and failing out there, but I can't ever remember hearing/seeing about a single one. Can somebody point me to an example and make a believer out of me?
Again I think you are looking at it all wrong. Think of HPT/MP testing as a gauge that the manufacturer ACTUALLY cares about the product they are putting out. This translates into better barrel steel, M4 feed ramps, correct gas port size, straight FSB, 556 NATO chambering, etc, etc.
Companies that willing to go through the hassle of HPT/MP are always going to put out a much better product than a company that does not do this.
C4
Remember911
08-15-08, 11:33
Sorry, but I still don't get it. There are lots of non-military-style guns that aren't built to any DoD standard, and you can hardly mean that none of them are quality products.
Back to the point of the thread: is there really some epidemic of AR barrels cracking or otherwise catastrophically failing that would justify high pressure/magnetic particle testing every one, or is this just a DoD "flaming vaseline drop test?"
Put another way: does anybody but the DoD spec high pressure/magnetic particle testing of every barrel and bolt?
Ben
Besides the fact that if a comp tells me they are tested and I fined out that they lied to me It would pi$$ me off. And yes I have seen barrels with cracks in them. I worked in the indus for 5 years, and now do my own thing with quality parts. :eek:
Sorry, but I still don't get it. There are lots of non-military-style guns that aren't built to any DoD standard, and you can hardly mean that none of them are quality products.
Back to the point of the thread: is there really some epidemic of AR barrels cracking or otherwise catastrophically failing that would justify high pressure/magnetic particle testing every one, or is this just a DoD "flaming vaseline drop test?"
Put another way: does anybody but the DoD spec high pressure/magnetic particle testing of every barrel and bolt?
Ben
If you saw some of the crap that comes out of shops that DON'T follow the standards - problems exactly like " barrels being untrue, gas ports in the wrong spots, chambers being machined incorrectly, chrome flaking, front sight bases off-canter, flash hider threads stripped, etc. etc. etc." - then you would start to get it.
CMMG in particular - not in a million years would I ever buy another product they made. These issues get complicated when fanboys chime in with "but I own X and it's just as good as Y!" You can argue that until you're blue in the face, but when they cut corners, they simply aren't, period.
As C4IGrant pointed out, it's a sign, when companies can't even bother maintaining a minimum standard.
Remember911
08-15-08, 11:45
It seems so hard for some guys to not see the true benfit of good parts untill something go's bad ,and then they plame the ammo.;)
OK, I googled it and got nothing. I give up. What's RMECPN?
Ben
Ben, he was referring to my response and used my screen name "rmecapn". He forgot the "a".
It seems so hard for some guys to not see the true benfit of good parts untill something go's bad ,and then they plame the ammo.;)
It's not that 4140 barrel steel is not good. It's just not "as good as" 4150 milspec steel. For the average hobby shooter, it is more than adequate. The bigger issue comes when other corners are cut by manufacturers and you end up with cracked bolts, misaligned ports, poor machining, etc.
If you are a hobby shooter, you do not "need" an AR that follows the TDP. You just don't. But you shouldn't complain when issues arise, either. You get what you pay for and this is particularly true in the AR realm.
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