View Full Version : G&R Tactical 1911 parts list
Here is the parts list we are going to use for our 1911's. I know that many people prefer this brand over that brand, but as long as quality parts are used then there shouldn't be any complaints.
C4
Stainless Caspian Recon Rail Frame
Carbon Caspian Slide
Kart Match Barrel
EGW Bushing
Ed Brown tactical Thumb Safety
Ed Brown Grip Safety
Ed Brown Plug & Guide
Cylinder & Slide Fire Control Group
Wilson Stainless Pin Set
Caspian Firing Pin
Caspian Firing Pin Stop
Caspian Ejector
VZ Grips
Gun Crafters Mainspring Housing
Wilson Combat Bullet Proof Slide Stop
Greider Precision Trigger
Caspian Grip Bushing
Ed Brown Grip Allen Head Screws
Novak Tritium Front Sight
SDM Rear Sight
Wolf Springs
Wilson Combat Tactical Magazine Release
ISMI Recoil Spring
Nowlin Stainless Plunger Tube
Wilson Combat Bullet Proof Extractor
Cerakote finish
Here is the parts list we are going to use for our 1911's. I know that many people prefer this brand over that brand, but as long as quality parts are used then there shouldn't be any complaints.
C4
Stainless Caspian Recon Rail Frame
Carbon Caspian Slide
Kart Match Barrel
EGW Bushing
Ed Brown tactical Thumb Safety
Ed Brown Grip Safety
Ed Brown Plug & Guide
Cylinder & Slide Fire Control Group
Wilson Stainless Pin Set
Caspian Firing Pin
Caspian Firing Pin Stop
Caspian Ejector
VZ Grips
Gun Crafters Mainspring Housing
Wilson Combat Bullet Proof Slide Stop
Greider Precision Trigger
Caspian Grip Bushing
Ed Brown Grip Allen Head Screws
Novak Tritium Front Sight
SDM Rear Sight
Wolf Springs
Wilson Combat Tactical Magazine Release
ISMI Recoil Spring
Nowlin Stainless Plunger Tube
Wilson Combat Bullet Proof Extractor
Cerakote finish
I know people are going to differ so I'll get in early. There is, IMHO, ZERO wrong with those parts although some may PREFER others. Nice start.
I know people are going to differ so I'll get in early. There is, IMHO, ZERO wrong with those parts although some may PREFER others. Nice start.
I'll tell ya it was hard to decide on the parts. We picked items that had a known track record and were reliable.
C4
This pretty much covers it. So do tell, when will this 1911 be available for purchase?
This pretty much covers it. So do tell, when will this 1911 be available for purchase?
Well, unless there is some major issue with the parts listed, we will be ordering them shortly. Remember, that there are going to only be two pistols built at first. The first one is sold and so is the second one.
After they are reviewed and feedback is gathered we will then decide if it is a wise business move to go forward with the idea.
C4
Looks good. No complaints here! Can't wait to see the finished product.
So the price on these is tentatively $2500?
Carbon Slide means Carbon Steel as opposed to Stainless, correct? I almost asked this stupid question right away last night but looked into it... :)
The two pistols being made first and purchased are going to be 100% test mules, correct? They'll be wrung out hard for R&D purposes and not kept as some sort of investment?
I think I know the answer, I'm just providing you with an opportunity to clarify for others.
That certainly is an impressive list of parts!
Will this beast be ready for the Vickers AK class in March? If so, you should let everyone "demo" it ;)
Grant,
That is a pretty nice list but what is the difference between it and just building your own? Caspian will do most of the work and that would be left is hand lapping the rails, stoning the trigger, smoothing out corners, and spraying the receivers (bluing or park under the paint would be better). It seems strange to pay over $2K for something I can assemble myself in a few hours.
Grant,
That is a pretty nice list but what is the difference between it and just building your own? Caspian will do most of the work and that would be left is hand lapping the rails, stoning the trigger, smoothing out corners, and spraying the receivers (bluing or park under the paint would be better). It seems strange to pay over $2K for something I can assemble myself in a few hours.
Are you a qualified 1911 gunsmith?
A list of good quality parts means little without the skilled hand of a truly qualified gunsmith.
Fitting is everything on a 1911.
i agree..the fit is essential...
are those caspian slide and extractors the external kind? i know the caspian recons i have seen had external extractors....no big to me, but some 1911 "purists" will automatically avoid pistols with external extractors
just food for thought
Always kicking the hornet's nest, huh?
Ask why there are AK builders out there when you and I can build one in a few hours? FAL builders?
It may just be the Recon Receiver Frame, not the same slide...
The beauty of an ala carte` gun!
............................
Grant,
That is a pretty nice list but what is the difference between it and just building your own? Caspian will do most of the work and that would be left is hand lapping the rails, stoning the trigger, smoothing out corners, and spraying the receivers (bluing or park under the paint would be better). It seems strange to pay over $2K for something I can assemble myself in a few hours.
Nitrox - I absolutely mean no disrepect to you:
Grant, this is exactly why I wouldn't spend the time, money and manhours doing a custom 1911. 1911's are awesome but 1911 people can be the biggest PITA to deal with. By the time you buy the parts, factor in the labor, add manhours spent going round and round with potential buyers I can't see how you'll make enough profit for it to be worth it. Then you have to consider warranty work, customer nit-picking after they receive the gun, tuning, etc. I would think the 1911 stuff would be a full time job in and of itself and that your main shop will suffer because of it.
That's just my opinion and I hope I didn't offend anyone. :)
Nitrox just happens to know what goes into building one and is comfortable tackling it on his own.
Some want it built by others.
Grant offers a warranty.
I'm like Nitrox a lot of times. If I know how, I'll at least try myself. I own an AK and an AR15 that were put together 100% by me. They function flawlessly (knock on wood.)
I build my own computers for myself, family and my office. I change my own oil, belts on the car, etc.
But, some people are not as adventurous and order from a catalog.
Saying that you can do this yourself for less money with an investment in tools is like saying you can change your oil for cheaper because oils is $10 and you need a $10 wrench you can reuse...
WRT the no-name comment, will there be any chance you could get Tom Sawyer to do some special engraving for you Grant?
If Grant needed a wake up call for what he’s getting into, this is it.
FYI: The act of assembling an AR/AK is absolutely incomparable to the skill & experience needed to fit a truly reliable 1911. Building a 1911 is not simply installing parts in the correct order. Most anybody could assembly a Glock, Sig, or HK from a box of parts. The parts are truly drop-in and no hand fitting is required. Sadly that’s not the case for a 1911.
Now if you want to build your own as a fun project that's fine, but judging by the parts list this is intended as a "Serious Use" 1911 (Carry weapon, Duty, Etc.) That is not the place for home project 1911.
You've misunderstood me.
I was saying there is always a person who can learn to build, but will choose to buy.
I wasn't confirming Nitrox' position on building himself because he can put an AK together. I wasn't saying "If you can build an AK, you can build a 1911."
I was comparing it to something he knows well- that some buy and some build...
ETA: It sure isn't as easy as changing your own oil either but you understood that point...
So the price on these is tentatively $2500?
Carbon Slide means Carbon Steel as opposed to Stainless, correct? I almost asked this stupid question right away last night but looked into it... :)
The two pistols being made first and purchased are going to be 100% test mules, correct? They'll be wrung out hard for R&D purposes and not kept as some sort of investment?
I think I know the answer, I'm just providing you with an opportunity to clarify for others.
The first one is gonig to a member on this board. I know that he will not baby it. The first one might turn into a collectors item if I continue on with this project though. :D
C4
That certainly is an impressive list of parts!
Will this beast be ready for the Vickers AK class in March? If so, you should let everyone "demo" it ;)
Yes it should.
C4
Grant,
That is a pretty nice list but what is the difference between it and just building your own? Caspian will do most of the work and that would be left is hand lapping the rails, stoning the trigger, smoothing out corners, and spraying the receivers (bluing or park under the paint would be better). It seems strange to pay over $2K for something I can assemble myself in a few hours.
As you know, the REAL cost of a quality 1911 is NEVER in the parts, but in the fitting, polishing, blending of the parts. The guy I am using spends 15 hours on body work alone! These are also Cerakoted (a $300 dollar option).
If people believe that they can buy all the parts, assemble, fit, finish and coat the gun for $2,500 then they can be my guest. ;)
C4
i agree..the fit is essential...
are those caspian slide and extractors the external kind? i know the caspian recons i have seen had external extractors....no big to me, but some 1911 "purists" will automatically avoid pistols with external extractors
just food for thought
Yes they are external. The theory is that if the extractor goes south, external ones are easier to installl and come up with.
C4
Nitrox - I absolutely mean no disrepect to you:
Grant, this is exactly why I wouldn't spend the time, money and manhours doing a custom 1911. 1911's are awesome but 1911 people can be the biggest PITA to deal with. By the time you buy the parts, factor in the labor, add manhours spent going round and round with potential buyers I can't see how you'll make enough profit for it to be worth it. Then you have to consider warranty work, customer nit-picking after they receive the gun, tuning, etc. I would think the 1911 stuff would be a full time job in and of itself and that your main shop will suffer because of it.
That's just my opinion and I hope I didn't offend anyone. :)
There is some money it them Marc, but it is more about being fun to me. If I looked at it like a job then I wouldn't be doing this at all. :D
C4
WRT the no-name comment, will there be any chance you could get Tom Sawyer to do some special engraving for you Grant?
No name at this time other than the serial number which will read something like GRT00000001.
C4
If Grant needed a wake up call for what he’s getting into, this is it.
FYI: The act of assembling an AR/AK is absolutely incomparable to the skill & experience needed to fit a truly reliable 1911. Building a 1911 is not simply installing parts in the correct order. Most anybody could assembly a Glock, Sig, or HK from a box of parts. The parts are truly drop-in and no hand fitting is required. Sadly that’s not the case for a 1911.
Now if you want to build your own as a fun project that's fine, but judging by the parts list this is intended as a "Serious Use" 1911 (Carry weapon, Duty, Etc.) That is not the place for home project 1911.
It is not lost on me that 1911 people are a PITA. As I said, this is a labor of love more than anything. I am even going to the extreme of getting PPM to make me a one of a kind pistol case for each 1911 I produce. :D
Are we having fun yet? I know I am!
C4
As you know, the REAL cost of a quality 1911 is NEVER in the parts, but in the fitting, polishing, blending of the parts. The guy I am using spends 15 hours on body work alone! These are also Cerakoted (a $300 dollar option).
If people believe that they can buy all the parts, assemble, fit, finish and coat the gun for $2,500 then they can be my guest. ;)
C4
Its not a belief, I can absolutely buy all the parts, buy all the tools, fit all the parts, and coat the whole gun for less than $2500. I think the real debate begins at the man hours and quality of the work.
I also agree with Suicide, not everyone is willing to do the work themselves, that is obviously the target market.
ETA: I'm not being very clear, my original question was based on perceived value. What is the perceived value over other similarly priced guns or a custom gun built by an individual?
Its not a belief, I can absolutely buy all the parts, buy all the tools, fit all the parts, and coat the whole gun for less than $2500. I think the real debate begins at the man hours and quality of the work.
I also agree with Suicide, not everyone is willing to do the work themselves, that is obviously the target market.
ETA: I'm not being very clear, my original question was based on perceived value. What is the perceived value over other similarly priced guns or a custom gun built by an individual?
If you believe that you can do it, then your one of the few. The real question is if your abilities in fit and finish stack up to the 1911 I am making. This is where you get into true cost. The other thing you have to remember, is how much is your time worth? My time is worth a lot. If you added up all the parts, coating cost and your hourly wage (at least 20hrs worth), you would find that this 1911 is a bargain compared to others.
If our 1911's use some of the best parts known to the 1911 world, has exceptional fit/finish, shoots accurately then it will be viewed as one of the best deals on the 1911 markets today (which is the intention).
If Grant needed a wake up call for what he’s getting into, this is it.
Ahem!
Grant, if you're doing this for 'the love' than I can somewhat understand.
If you're doing this to make money and get rich I don't see how you'll make it. Figure out how much time you'll spend with each customer; before, during and after production then figure out how much money your sweat equity is worth per hour and do the math. Will your time be better spent else where? What is your ROI per 1911? Is there a better ROI available in something else?
That said you know I wish you all the best. :D
bullitt5172
10-26-06, 12:36
This is good in theory but I for one would not pay that kind of money for a unknown product, sorry. Your right, all the parts are good but I don't want a Caspian frame/slide for one. Two, this mystery guy might be good but we don't know. There are too many excellent choices in the price range that are proven to risk going with someone new. Les Baer, Wilson, Nighthawk and the list goes on. I wish you well, but to me this is a bad idea.
Ahem!
Grant, if you're doing this for 'the love' than I can somewhat understand.
If you're doing this to make money and get rich I don't see how you'll make it. Figure out how much time you'll spend with each customer; before, during and after production then figure out how much money your sweat equity is worth per hour and do the math. Will your time be better spent else where? What is your ROI per 1911? Is there a better ROI available in something else?
That said you know I wish you all the best. :D
There is no money in ANY firearm. Money is always in accessories. A dealer has to look at firearms as a platform to sell accessories (lights, lasers, optics, etc).
C4
This is good in theory but I for one would not pay that kind of money for a unknown product, sorry. Your right, all the parts are good but I don't want a Caspian frame/slide for one. Two, this mystery guy might be good but we don't know. There are too many excellent choices in the price range that are proven to risk going with someone new. Les Baer, Wilson, Nighthawk and the list goes on. I wish you well, but to me this is a bad idea.
Your one of the people that has to have a name on a gun for people to be impressed. My 1911's will NOT be for you.
The product will be fully reviewed for quality and accuracy (there will be no "unkowns" about it). Again, if Caspian is not a good enough frame for you these are not the 1911's for you. You will also never know the 1911 smiths name (as that is the way he likes it).
From what I have seen and know, threre won't be ANY comparison in this price range. This gun will compete in quality with guns that are priced in the $3k range.
C4
There is no money in ANY firearm. Money is always in accessories. A dealer has to look at firearms as a platform to sell accessories (lights, lasers, optics, etc).
C4
I understand that. So you think spending all this time and effort on a 'custom' 1911 will equate to enough 1911 accessory sales to make it all worth while?
I understand that. So you think spending all this time and effort on a 'custom' 1911 will equate to enough 1911 accessory sales to make it all worth while?
It is really about getting a 1911 made the way I want. If people buy it then great and if they add an X200 to it, even better!
Knowing what dealer price is on guns from NH and WC, I will make more than being a dealer for them and get a lot more enjoyment out it.
C4
It is really about getting a 1911 made the way I want. If people buy it then great and if they add an X200 to it, even better!
Knowing what dealer price is on guns from NH and WC, I will make more than being a dealer for them and get a lot more enjoyment out it.
C4
Well then, have at it! :p
bullitt5172
10-26-06, 13:05
Your one of the people that has to have a name on a gun for people to be impressed. My 1911's will NOT be for you.
You don't have to worry about this my friend.
The product will be fully reviewed for quality and accuracy (there will be no "unkowns" about it). Again, if Caspian is not a good enough frame for you these are not the 1911's for you. You will also never know the 1911 smiths name (as that is the way he likes it).
I stated my preference, I wouldn't pay that much for a gun with an external extracter.
From what I have seen and know, threre won't be ANY comparison in this price range. This gun will compete in quality with guns that are priced in the $3k range.
C4
Your definately answering a lot of questions for me. Mystery guy we'll never know about, questioning my knowledge of 1911 and telling me I need I name on the side??? Your kidding yourself Grant. That gun specs out no different than anything in the market in that price range. Please, tell me I'm wrong and you have somehow found a way to make a better 1911 and a cheaper price.
Your definately answering a lot of questions for me. Mystery guy we'll never know about, questioning my knowledge of 1911 and telling me I need I name on the side??? Your kidding yourself Grant. That gun specs out no different than anything in the market in that price range. Please, tell me I'm wrong and you have somehow found a way to make a better 1911 and a cheaper price.
I missed where anyone questioned your knowledge on 1911's. Your opinion is simply that (yours) and doesn't make it any better than anyone elses.
Have you ever seen a complete listing of parts in a 1911 from any manufacturer? If so, please point me to the link where they list everything and where it came from. Truth of the matter, is that companies do NOT list the parts used (as a general rule) because they often times use cheaper parts.
The guns that I have seen in the $2,500 range have VERY little work done to them. Most of them look like they put a bunch of parts together and called it a day. That is not the case with these 1911's. The body work alone has 15hrs of work done to them. Please call up some other companies and ask them how much labor they put in theirs!
C4
Yes they are external. The theory is that if the extractor goes south, external ones are easier to installl and come up with.
C4
Wow, that'll be the dealbreaker for me.
Good luck with this.
Wow, that'll be the dealbreaker for me.
Good luck with this.
You might want to do a little more research on external extractors. If done properly, is about the best option. I think people have seen lower grade 1911's have them and have issues. That won't be the case here.
Same goes with Caspian frames and slides. A lot of big name companies use them and are considered on of the best in the business.
C4
Rob, instead of leaving you with the "do more research" comment, I thought I would go into it a little further.
Internal extractors are like a leaf spring with a hook on the end to engage the rim. Because of this, they are prone to fatigue and sometimes require tuning to achieve the correct spring tension.
External extractors are more rigid and rely on a seperate spring to maintain tension. They are not prone to spring fatigue and are easier to manufacturer and service. They don't require service as much as internals.
The other problem with internal extractors is memory. Internal extractors are adjusted by bending the extractor for the proper tension. Unfortunately, the steel of the extractor has memory and it wants to revert back to the shape previous to being bent.
Another problem with internal extractors is clocking. External extractors are very tolerant of memory.
Last, but not least, Glocks, Sigs, 92F, Browning, etc, etc all use external extractors. ;)
If you don't like external extractors because of the "looks" I ask that you wait and see mine before you say you don like them. :D
C4
bullitt5172
10-26-06, 14:08
I missed where anyone questioned your knowledge on 1911's. Your opinion is simply that (yours) and doesn't make it any better than anyone elses.
Have you ever seen a complete listing of parts in a 1911 from any manufacturer? If so, please point me to the link where they list everything and where it came from. Truth of the matter, is that companies do NOT list the parts used (as a general rule) because they often times use cheaper parts.
The guns that I have seen in the $2,500 range have VERY little work done to them. Most of them look like they put a bunch of parts together and called it a day. That is not the case with these 1911's. The body work alone has 15hrs of work done to them. Please call up some other companies and ask them how much labor they put in theirs!
C4
Wow Grant, you must be looking at different guns than I am. I have owned Nighthawk, Wilson, Les Baer, Ed Brown etc and all have been extemely well put together and finished. I'm done arguing with you on that part.
As for the external extracter, Sig uses the Caspian frame and slide with the EE setup. That's got the worst track record for any 1911 released that I can remember. Kimber tried it, they sucked as well and went back to internal. Dan Wesson used external, had problems and went back to internal. See a pattern? HK, Sig, Glock etc do you external extracters...they are also not 1911's.
Again, I wish you well. You mine as well design a better magazine too while your at it :p
I don't like them because they equal at minimum 3 parts vs. one of the internal. I also actually LIKE the fact that I can tune an internal, as opposed to being stuck with whatever spring rate is installed in the external. Additionally I think they are one more place for dirt to get trapped in a carry or "working" 1911. Just like the mag question, this is another hot point of contention among the 1911ists.
I don't begrudge anyone else their preference, but I don't want an external. If I did, I'd buy a "Glock, Sigs, 92F, Browning, etc, etc." ;)
I'd be interested to see this turned into a poll.
"If you had $2500 to spend on a 1911 would you buy the pistol described below or something else?"
A. The pistol described below
B. Something Else
I thought the first run of GSRs were horrible for a multitude of reasons, possibly only one being related to an external extractor.
They've made a lot of changes to the gun I thought?
I don't like them because they equal at minimum 3 parts vs. one of the internal. I also actually LIKE the fact that I can tune an internal, as opposed to being stuck with whatever spring rate is installed in the external. Additionally I think they are one more place for dirt to get trapped in a carry or "working" 1911. Just like the mag question, this is another hot point of contention among the 1911ists.
I don't begrudge anyone else their preference, but I don't want an external. If I did, I'd buy a "Glock, Sigs, 92F, Browning, etc, etc." ;)
The ability to tune an external extractor to whatever you want is easier than and internal. Not to mention that they don't suffer from all the problem listed about (especially memory).
I understand this is a personal preference, but external extractors are king in the combat hand gun world (Glock, Sig, etc).
C4
I thought the first run of GSRs were horrible for a multitude of reasons, possibly only one being related to an external extractor.
They've made a lot of changes to the gun I thought?
Kimber is another one that does a HORRIBLE external extractor. If not done correctly, they suck for sure!
C4
I'd be interested to see this turned into a poll.
"If you had $2500 to spend on a 1911 would you buy the pistol described below or something else?"
A. The pistol described below
B. Something Else
That really wouldn't be fair, because a lot of what makes a 1911 is the fit and finish (quality of the work done). Right now all you have is a list of parts. Wait till the gun is finished and THEN do a poll. ;)
C4
bullitt5172
10-26-06, 14:19
Kimber is another one that does a HORRIBLE external extractor. If not done correctly, they suck for sure!
C4
Hey, Grant and I can agree on something :D
Wow Grant, you must be looking at different guns than I am. I have owned Nighthawk, Wilson, Les Baer, Ed Brown etc and all have been extemely well put together and finished. I'm done arguing with you on that part.
As for the external extracter, Sig uses the Caspian frame and slide with the EE setup. That's got the worst track record for any 1911 released that I can remember. Kimber tried it, they sucked as well and went back to internal. Dan Wesson used external, had problems and went back to internal. See a pattern? HK, Sig, Glock etc do you external extracters...they are also not 1911's.
Again, I wish you well. You mine as well design a better magazine too while your at it :p
Nope, I have owned, looked at and shot most of the guns you have listed. They are nice for sure, but don't have a lot of work done to them IMHO. Again, ask any of those companies how much time they spend working on the bodies alone then get back to me.
The SIG 1911 is a POS for sure. That has ZERO to do with Caspian or EE. ;) Kimber has the same issues. Nothing to do with EE's.
A lot of 1911 makers have gone away from IE an moved to EE's. 99% of all combat HG's have an EE. See a pattern??? ;)
The magazine thing has crossed my mind now that you mention it. I see a lot of room for improvmenet from what is available.
C4
Hey, Grant and I can agree on something :D
As I stated, if EE are done incorrectly, they will suck for sure. Ours will be done correctly or the weapon simply will NOT be produced!
C4
bullitt5172
10-26-06, 14:33
Nope, I have owned, looked at and shot most of the guns you have listed. They are nice for sure, but don't have a lot of work done to them IMHO. Again, ask any of those companies how much time they spend working on the bodies alone then get back to me.
The SIG 1911 is a POS for sure. That has ZERO to do with Caspian or EE. ;) Kimber has the same issues. Nothing to do with EE's.
A lot of 1911 makers have gone away from IE an moved to EE's. 99% of all combat HG's have an EE. See a pattern??? ;)
The magazine thing has crossed my mind now that you mention it. I see a lot of room for improvmenet from what is available.
C4
Ya, your wrong a lot. Name a high end, reliable, combat 1911 that uses an EE?
Ya, your wrong a lot. Name a high end, reliable, combat 1911 that uses an EE?
Bullitt5172 -
You have expressed your opinion/concern on this matter. It has been noted. As was stated previously, you are free to buy any 1911 you desire. If this one does not suit your preference, do not buy it. HOWEVER, DO NOT CONTINUE MAKING DEROGATORY COMMENTS TO THOSE WITH WHOM YOU DISAGREE. Consider this a friendly suggestion to gracefully exit this thread.
Ya, your wrong a lot. Name a high end, reliable, combat 1911 that uses an EE?
Traditionalists like 1911's with internal extractors because that is/was the only way you could get them. One of the many problems with internal extractors is that they need adjusted from time to time and when you drop the slide on a round, it is punishing to the extractor (which is why most companies tell you not to do this). This eventually leads to them needing replaced.
Most 1911 makers don't fool with external extractors because they are difficult to do correctly. The just don't want to spend the time and energy on it (much easier to jut drop in an IE). So the reason that big name companies don't use them is because of the cost of doing them right is just too high.
Let's not forget that the Browning high power uses an EE and is considered one of the most reliable weapons ever made.
C4
bullitt5172
10-26-06, 15:12
Bullitt5172 -
You have expressed your opinion/concern on this matter. It has been noted. As was stated previously, you are free to buy any 1911 you desire. If this one does not suit your preference, do not buy it. HOWEVER, DO NOT CONTINUE MAKING DEROGATORY COMMENTS TO THOSE WITH WHOM YOU DISAGREE. Consider this a friendly suggestion to gracefully exit this thread.
This is an open forum right? You can make it look like I am being derogatory all you want. Grant openly asked this forum what the groups opinion of him building a 1911 was. I am merely giving him my opinion. As if you can't tell by the little :p , I am not being rude but to the point. I have more than once told him I wish him luck in this venture.
olds442tyguy
10-26-06, 15:47
I applaud the external extractor. Being a modern combat 1911, I wouldn't worry about what the traditionalists think anyways. The EE is much more functional anyways.
Wayne Dobbs
10-26-06, 16:28
Grant,
I think that for the most part an external extractor is a good idea for a combat pistol. However, a lack of success with the EE seems to be over-represented on 1911s. If I recall correctly, Hilton Yam wrote something recently along the lines that the design of the 1911 made the proper LOCATION of the external extractor on the slide's body difficult (impossible?) for optimum function and reliability. I'd have to go back and do some searching over on 10-8 to find the information, but I recall that the placement of those extractors resulted in the rim of the cases being "lost" during extraction and ejection, which resulted in some nasty feedway stoppages.
I hope that your efforts are successful...
Wayne
Let's relax and tone it down a notch.
I realize that high-end 1911 discussions are usually nothing more than a train wreck waiting to happen but that it not going to happen in this forum.
Everybody is entitled to there opinion, but this has to be kept polite and respectful at all times.
Nothing less will be tolerated.
This is an open forum right? You can make it look like I am being derogatory all you want. Grant openly asked this forum what the groups opinion of him building a 1911 was. I am merely giving him my opinion. As if you can't tell by the little :p , I am not being rude but to the point. I have more than once told him I wish him luck in this venture.
For the record, I don't have any issues with what you said. You are of course entitled to your opinion.
All I ask is that people look at things with both eyes wide open and throw out a lot of the misconceptions that lurk on the "error net." I would also ask them to question some things that they maybe held as fact.
Here is a basic list of things I would like people to start asking concerning 1911's:
1. Why don't "big name" companies list all the parts they use?
2. How much body work/tuning do they do on a $2,500 1911 (hours spent)?
3. Why don't they use external extractors? Cost? Knowledge on how to do them right?
4. Am I paying for a name?
C4
I applaud the external extractor. Being a modern combat 1911, I wouldn't worry about what the traditionalists think anyways. The EE is much more functional anyways.
Thank you brother. I have asked the question and no one can seem to answer. Why is almost EVERY combat handgun made using an external extractor? Some of the most bomb proof HG's known to man (Glock, SIG, High Power) all use them. Things that make you Hmmmmmm.
C4
The only thing I like better than Colt .vs Bushmaster or Glock .vs 1911 threads are the 1911 personal preference threads. :D
Grant,
I think that for the most part an external extractor is a good idea for a combat pistol. However, a lack of success with the EE seems to be over-represented on 1911s. If I recall correctly, Hilton Yam wrote something recently along the lines that the design of the 1911 made the proper LOCATION of the external extractor on the slide's body difficult (impossible?) for optimum function and reliability. I'd have to go back and do some searching over on 10-8 to find the information, but I recall that the placement of those extractors resulted in the rim of the cases being "lost" during extraction and ejection, which resulted in some nasty feedway stoppages.
I hope that your efforts are successful...
Wayne
Thanks Wayne. Most peoples experience with EE is based on two weapons Sig 1911 and Kimber. Both were bad. On the other hand, if you do some research on the S&W 1911's, you will not find anyone complaining about their EE's. It appears that they have found a way to build them correctly even under mass production. People only remember if a weapon has had issues. They never seem to realize that also have never heard of any issues with the S&W EE's. Funny how that works.
Judging my 1911 based on peoples experience with kimbers EE problems is like saying that AR15's are unreliable because their Vulcan Arms AR15 wouldn't run. :rolleyes:
C4
The only thing I like better than Colt .vs Bushmaster or Glock .vs 1911 threads are the 1911 personal preference threads. :D
I guess I am kind of screwed because I own all of the above. I cannot pick a fight anyone because I like them all to some degree. :D
C4
I guess I am kind of screwed because I own all of the above. I cannot pick a fight anyone because I like them all to some degree. :D
C4
Bro, when discussing 1911s it's bound to wind up in a fight! 1911 owners will even fight amongest themselves...have you ever been over to 1911forums?
Are you sure you want to get into the business of making them??? :p
Bro, when discussing 1911s it's bound to wind up in a fight! 1911 owners will even fight amongest themselves...have you ever been over to 1911forums?
Are you sure you want to get into the business of making them??? :p
Ya see, I don't think I have picked a fight with a single person! All I have done is state that I am going to build a 1911 with certains parts, a ton of hours of body work and tuning, cerakote finish and do it for $500-$1,000 below what you could buy it for from a big name company! :D
C4
One of the cool things about doing threads like these, is that you get people calling you up to share their secrets. Two comments that were made to me today were very interesting.
The first is that the reason why a lot of companies (high end) don't list the parts used in their 1911's is simply because they don't want you to see that they only have about $800 in a $2,500-$3,000 pistol.
The other main reason why more companies do NOT use EE is because the CNC machine to do the work is $100,000 and they don't want to spend that.
The plot continues to thicken. :D
C4
The SIG 1911 is a POS for sure. That has ZERO to do with Caspian or EE. ;)
C4
This just is not true. Caspian provided SIG with the Frames, slides, hammers, and fit the barrels. The majority of the early problems surrounded hammers being cut wrong(crooked), frames with incorrect feed ramps, barrels chambered and fit/finished improperly. The only known issue that did NOT involve Caspian was the out of spec extractor springs, which was also corrected. The majority of these problems have gone away now that SIG is producing the majority of the parts.
FWIW, SIG did not design anything on their 1911, it all came from a certain someone and Caspian.
I personally think that the SIG represents one of the best base guns on the market along with the S&W. But of course, Grant will be using the same frame and extractor so I'm sure I'm not alone in my sentiments. :D
Robb Jensen
10-27-06, 05:46
I prefer internals extractors. I run a Wilson Combat 'bulletproof' in my Springfield 1911 (.45). And an AFTEC in my STI Limited pistol (.40).
As of late the SIG GSRs we sell have been running very well.
The Kimbers we've sold (external extractors) that have extraction problems when sent back to Kimber are fixed. Their fix is to replace the slide with an internal extractor. They're aren't putting out any new guns with externals.
The 1911 external might be a success.
Hilton Yam is experimenting with an external extractor on the 10-8 concept pistol pictured here on the 10-8 forums (http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=31986&an=0&page=0#31986). Time will tell, if anyone can get one to work it'll be Hilton.
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/31987-BenchsideR.jpg
This just is not true. Caspian provided SIG with the Frames, slides, hammers, and fit the barrels. The majority of the early problems surrounded hammers being cut wrong(crooked), frames with incorrect feed ramps, barrels chambered and fit/finished improperly. The only known issue that did NOT involve Caspian was the out of spec extractor springs, which was also corrected. The majority of these problems have gone away now that SIG is producing the majority of the parts.
FWIW, SIG did not design anything on their 1911, it all came from a certain someone and Caspian.
I personally think that the SIG represents one of the best base guns on the market along with the S&W. But of course, Grant will be using the same frame and extractor so I'm sure I'm not alone in my sentiments. :D
WRONG! SIG ordered everything from Caspian (per their design) and then built them in shop. What they figured out is that they didn't have a SINGLE 1911 smith in house! SIG, not wanting to look incompetent, passed the buck and tried to hang it on Caspian!
There is always two sides to every story.
I imagine every manufacturer that puts out a 1911 runs into issues with frames, slides, hammers etc, etc. It is up the smith that is doing all the work to NOT let them leave the house. This is where my gurantee comes in that we will not let a subpar weapon be sold!
Edited to add: Did you know that NH uses Caspian made products on the Vickers 1911?? Oh the horror! I bet it sucks too.
C4
I prefer internals extractors. I run a Wilson Combat 'bulletproof' in my Springfield 1911 (.45). And an AFTEC in my STI Limited pistol (.40).
As of late the SIG GSRs we sell have been running very well.
The Kimbers we've sold (external extractors) that have extraction problems when sent back to Kimber are fixed. Their fix is to replace the slide with an internal extractor. They're aren't putting out any new guns with externals.
The 1911 external might be a success.
Hilton Yam is experimenting with an external extractor on the 10-8 concept pistol pictured here on the 10-8 forums (http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=31986&an=0&page=0#31986). Time will tell, if anyone can get one to work it'll be Hilton.
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/31987-BenchsideR.jpg
It is my understanding that Kimber (towards the end) got the EE thing right. They then pulled the plug on it and went IE.
IE's have all kinds of issues as well. If you do a search on a couple different 1911 forums, you will see tha IE issues are VERY common as well. So I really don't think IE's are the only answer to the problem.
I as well have a WC with an IE and have had to have my adjusted as it lost tension. :(
There is more than one 1911 smith that specializes in EE's. In fact, that is about all he does. :D
C4
I just thought I would add that my 07 FFL came in today so this project is a go for sure! :D
C4
Today I had a nice long conversation with LAV about my 1911 project. We spent some time discussing IE and EE. His opinion is that if the EE is done properly that it is a good choice on a 1911. With that said, he also reminded me that 1911 purists (especially in a $2,500 gun) are going to freak (which is what has happened here) over this. So we have decided to do IE's on the "production" guns. It is against my nature to choose the IE when the EE could possibly be the more reliable choice, but I want these 1911's to have a chance at selling.
I still intend to fight this battle and prove that EE are a better choice so my personal 1911 will have one on it. I will then shoot/train with it and most likely send it off to LAV for review.
C4
IE now? I'm out...
:p
LOL! SHUT YOUR MOUTH! :D
C4
WRONG! SIG ordered everything from Caspian (per their design) and then built them in shop. What they figured out is that they didn't have a SINGLE 1911 smith in house! SIG, not wanting to look incompetent, passed the buck and tried to hang it on Caspian!
There is always two sides to every story.
I imagine every manufacturer that puts out a 1911 runs into issues with frames, slides, hammers etc, etc. It is up the smith that is doing all the work to NOT let them leave the house. This is where my gurantee comes in that we will not let a subpar weapon be sold!
Edited to add: Did you know that NH uses Caspian made products on the Vickers 1911?? Oh the horror! I bet it sucks too.
C4
You're right that SIG shouldn't have let some of those 1911s out the door. However, I'm pretty sure SIG didn't spec hammers drilled off center or frames with 9mm ramps. I'm not saying SIG is not ultimately responsible for their problems but the mechanical failures they experienced weren't because one of their techs installed a hammer pin incorrectly. No one is under the illusion that what SIG is producing is anything other than a production gun...which leads right back to their supplier...Caspian.
Personally I think Caspian is fine but I don't believe they are capable of filling orders the size that SIG placed.
You're right that SIG shouldn't have let some of those 1911s out the door. However, I'm pretty sure SIG didn't spec hammers drilled off center or frames with 9mm ramps. I'm not saying SIG is not ultimately responsible for their problems but the mechanical failures they experienced weren't because one of their techs installed a hammer pin incorrectly. No one is under the illusion that what SIG is producing is anything other than a production gun...which leads right back to their supplier...Caspian.
Personally I think Caspian is fine but I don't believe they are capable of filling orders the size that SIG placed.
Is is possible that Caspian sent them some bad items? Sure it is possible as EVERY company puts out bad products from time to time. I also know that SIG didn't know how to build 1911's for quite some time and did order things made to their specs. Did that cause to the problems? Sure did.
C4
Dave Berryhill
10-28-06, 10:38
...I'm pretty sure SIG didn't spec hammers drilled off center or frames with 9mm ramps...
Caspian supplies their frames with 9mm feed ramps unless you specifically order them with .45 feed ramps. Sounds like an "oops!" to me.
Caspian supplies their frames with 9mm feed ramps unless you specifically order them with .45 feed ramps. Sounds like an "oops!" to me.
Most certainly! I have to wonder if SIG wasn't aware of this fact and just ordered them standard.
C4
Dave Berryhill
10-28-06, 11:42
Most certainly! I have to wonder if SIG wasn't aware of this fact and just ordered them standard.
OOPS!
Most certainly! I have to wonder if SIG wasn't aware of this fact and just ordered them standard.
C4
It was only a handful of the GSRs that had the problem, as best I can tell. The crooked hammer issue was much more common (but I'm sure SIG either ordered them crooked or knew they came crooked and were too ignorant to ask for straight hammers, right?).
So Grant, how many GSR's have you sold/owned/shot? How many have you had to take back under warranty or ship on your customer's behalf?
It was only a handful of the GSRs that had the problem, as best I can tell. The crooked hammer issue was much more common (but I'm sure SIG either ordered them crooked or knew they came crooked and were too ignorant to ask for straight hammers, right?).
So Grant, how many GSR's have you sold/owned/shot? How many have you had to take back under warranty or ship on your customer's behalf?
How many "crooked" hammers were there? Do you know for sure how many had crooked hammers? Or was it the same guy bitching all ove the internet (which is common). As I said, I don't doubt that ANY company can put out a bad product, but the SIG GSR debacle was manly their own fault and no one elses.
I have never owned a GSR (nor do I intend to). I have shot one though.
I just got my 07 so I have not sold a single GSR and doubt that I will stock them at this point and time.
This thread is to discuss the parts list in my 1911. Please stay on topic. If you would like to discuss the GSR, then start your own thread.
C4
How many "crooked" hammers were there? Do you know for sure how many had crooked hammers? Or was it the same guy bitching all ove the internet (which is common). As I said, I don't doubt that ANY company can put out a bad product, but the SIG GSR debacle was manly their own fault and no one elses.
I have never owned a GSR (nor do I intend to). I have shot one though.
I just got my 07 so I have not sold a single GSR and doubt that I will stock them at this point and time.
This thread is to discuss the parts list in my 1911. Please stay on topic. If you would like to discuss the GSR, then start your own thread.
C4
I'm discussing something you posted in this thread so to answer your questions, I don't know the total amount of defective hammers but there were more than a handful. I looked at a couple like that and read number separate complaints which is why I never purchased a GSR. However, I have not heard of the problem reoccurring since SIG brought the job in house from Caspian.
Anyhow, good luck with your 1911. I look forward to reviews.
Punching out.
I'm discussing something you posted in this thread so to answer your questions, I don't know the total amount of defective hammers but there were more than a handful. I looked at a couple like that and read number separate complaints which is why I never purchased a GSR. However, I have not heard of the problem reoccurring since SIG brought the job in house from Caspian.
Anyhow, good luck with your 1911. I look forward to reviews.
Punching out.
I actually never brought up the GSR (someone else did). I simply commented on their statement.
It is my understand that SIG went out and got some consultants so they could learn how to build them. It has apparently paid off as their GSR's are doing better (it appears).
C4
A couple of ideas...
1) You should give the Novak grip screws a look. They can be used with either an allen or a slotted driver.
2) While Caspian is making your frames you should look into getting them with the machined plunger tubes. It's not that much more and it eleminates one of the worst issues the 1911 can have.
3) The EGW oversized firing pin stop is the best in the business. It all but eliminates extractor clocking.
4) I assume you'll offer the wider safety as an option? I shoot with my thumb on the safety so it's nice to be able to tweak the width.
5) The slide stop that Berryhill Custom offers is worth looking at.
I'm excited to see what you end up with. I'll never spend that sort of money to have someone else build up a 1911 for me because I love to build them up, but I know lots of folks who would buy that. Several shoot at our club on IDPA night every week. IMO, it's hard to find someone who builds a really clean 1911 that isn't slathered with logo's and special names and all that. RRA does a pretty good job of that. You get a 1911 that looks like your grand pappy's trench pistol was the donor gun. I like that look.
BTW, Caspian builds good stuff. Not my favorite, but good nonetheless.
I know people are going to differ so I'll get in early. There is, IMHO, ZERO wrong with those parts although some may PREFER others. Nice start.
I would "prefer" a forged frame/slide (I believe this frame at least is not forged). Other than that looks good.
A couple of ideas...
1) You should give the Novak grip screws a look. They can be used with either an allen or a slotted driver.
IMO, grip screws should be slotted in a manner to allow tightening with a case rim.
IMO, grip screws should be slotted in a manner to allow tightening with a case rim.
Or at least your CGT... Otherwise aside from latent anxiety about the EE it looks good to go. ;)
I have no dog in this, as I am a Glock guy. But in regards to the extractor issue. I remember reading an interview with Larry Vickers he had said the external extractor would be the way to go on a 1911. Also said the internal extractor was the weak link. But, in the gun he spec'd out that NightHawk produces, he kept the internal extractor.:confused:
A couple of ideas...
1) You should give the Novak grip screws a look. They can be used with either an allen or a slotted driver.
2) While Caspian is making your frames you should look into getting them with the machined plunger tubes. It's not that much more and it eleminates one of the worst issues the 1911 can have.
3) The EGW oversized firing pin stop is the best in the business. It all but eliminates extractor clocking.
4) I assume you'll offer the wider safety as an option? I shoot with my thumb on the safety so it's nice to be able to tweak the width.
5) The slide stop that Berryhill Custom offers is worth looking at.
I'm excited to see what you end up with. I'll never spend that sort of money to have someone else build up a 1911 for me because I love to build them up, but I know lots of folks who would buy that. Several shoot at our club on IDPA night every week. IMO, it's hard to find someone who builds a really clean 1911 that isn't slathered with logo's and special names and all that. RRA does a pretty good job of that. You get a 1911 that looks like your grand pappy's trench pistol was the donor gun. I like that look.
BTW, Caspian builds good stuff. Not my favorite, but good nonetheless.
Thank you for your comments.
C4
I have no dog in this, as I am a Glock guy. But in regards to the extractor issue. I remember reading an interview with Larry Vickers he had said the external extractor would be the way to go on a 1911. Also said the internal extractor was the weak link. But, in the gun he spec'd out that NightHawk produces, he kept the internal extractor.:confused:
I spoke to LAV about 1911's for the last couple days. His opinion is that EE is a good choice (on a 1911) if it is done right. He feels that production EE's are just not being done right (which is why we see so many issues). He also commented that S&W has done the best job with the EE to date.
Larry also believes that an IE can be an excellent choice as well IF it is done correctly. This just isn't the case in most 1911's.
C4
bullitt5172
10-29-06, 11:30
Here is the parts list we are going to use for our 1911's. I know that many people prefer this brand over that brand, but as long as quality parts are used then there shouldn't be any complaints.
C4
Stainless Caspian Recon Rail Frame
Carbon Caspian Slide
Kart Match Barrel
EGW Bushing
Ed Brown tactical Thumb Safety
Ed Brown Grip Safety
Ed Brown Plug & Guide
Cylinder & Slide Fire Control Group
Wilson Stainless Pin Set
Caspian Firing Pin
Caspian Firing Pin Stop
Caspian Ejector
VZ Grips ---- Davidson Grips, don't the the feel of the VZ's
Gun Crafters Mainspring Housing
Wilson Combat Bullet Proof Slide Stop
Greider Precision Trigger ---- Solid I hope :)
Caspian Grip Bushing
Ed Brown Grip Allen Head Screws
Novak Tritium Front Sight
SDM Rear Sight ---- I'd like to see the Yost or Yam rear on here
Wolf Springs
Wilson Combat Tactical Magazine Release
ISMI Recoil Spring
Nowlin Stainless Plunger Tube
Wilson Combat Bullet Proof Extractor
Cerakote finish
These would be my changes....
K.L. Davis
10-29-06, 12:05
I have no dog in this, as I am a Glock guy. But in regards to the extractor issue. I remember reading an interview with Larry Vickers he had said the external extractor would be the way to go on a 1911. Also said the internal extractor was the weak link. But, in the gun he spec'd out that NightHawk produces, he kept the internal extractor.:confused:
FWIW:
As for extractors... the original internal extractor design is not a fluke -- it is generally poorly understood, even by those that smith the guns however. The design is such that it provides a true positive feeding system, the top cartridge is stripped from the mag and "slips" in behind the extracter claw, it should never snap over the cartridge and is not intended to do so. The down side is that it is part of many other functions and events in the gun, it is not as simple as shaping, polising and tuning the extractor -- it must be working in time with a properly cut breachface, timed barrel/link and even a magazine that releases the cartridge at the right point. All of this was believed to be needed for the mounted troops of the time, who were taught to fight from horseback and would have occasion to fire inverted, jumping and one handed -- something we rarely do now.
The external extractors have been hit and miss... S&W seems to have it right, my only missgiving would be that it is not a true "world standard" and you can not find and replace an extractor on a table in an open market in upyurbutistan...
Verrrry interesting!
I like the parts lineup. Post pics when you're evaluating your sample gun if you would, Grant! Dunno if I'd have the $$$ to pony up right away but I'll start saving my pennies now. I was hoping to get a Nighthawk Customs sometime in 07 or 08 anyway. :)
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