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1911pro
02-03-09, 18:03
I tried to do some research on what the "X in XM193 stands for. I had been told and read that this means military rejected. Federals techs said that the "X" is to denote the civilian ammo. It is Lake City whether it is White Box A,B,C,D or whatever letter they are using today. The last letter is for packaging. Black box American Eagle is made by Lake City. I was told this in two diferent return phone calls by two different techs. " XM193 is not rejected". It is mil spec Lake City M193 I am sure some will doubt this.

Jay Cunningham
02-03-09, 18:08
It is not military m193 ammo.

If it was, it would be labeled m193 instead of xm193 - right?

That said, it is usually still very good ammo.

1911pro
02-03-09, 18:21
It is not military m193 ammo.

If it was, it would be labeled m193 instead of xm193 - right?

That said, it is usually still very good ammo.

You are right in that the military would have to use the ammo to make it M193. The point that I am making is that the box and letters are the only thing that makes XM193 different from M193. Their are alot of people who are saying XM193 is rejected military contract ammo. This is not the case.

markm
02-04-09, 07:56
If it were military ammo it wouldn't have the NATO cross on the headstamp. M193 isn't a NATO round.

Thus, it couldn't be military rejected ammo. It's been speculated that the individual components didn't pass some spec prior to assembly. Brass too shiney, primers not sealed completely, etc.

But think of how many zillions of rounds of this ammo that has been produced. No plant's QC is that bad. I think it's a money maker at this point.

Slater
02-07-09, 15:57
The local Sportsman's Warehouse has this type. There was a large stack of it and all other 5.56mm/.223 ammo was sold out. Seems nobody was interested, although I bought a couple boxes to try out:

Originally, didn't the "X" stand for "Experimental"?



http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss158/5757_photos/HPIM0866.jpg

RD62
02-07-09, 16:27
I just left my local Sportsman's Warehouse and they had about 20 boxes of .22-250, about 10 boxes of .30-06, and about 30 boxes of .45 ACP, AND THAT WAS IT!!!

Not even any .22lr. The guy working the counter told me to come back Tues @ 2 as that's when their delivery comes in. He said last week he saw an elderly couple FILL a cart with ALL the 9mm that came in and buy it all.

If I found a stack of XM193 at my Sportsman's Warehouse, I'd shit a bird, and buy as much as I could without getting DIVORCED!

BUY MORE!


-RD62

markm
02-07-09, 16:50
Originally, didn't the "X" stand for "Experimental"?

:p

No.

I don't think any manufacturor wants any piece of "experimental" action when it comes to ammunition.

bkb0000
02-07-09, 16:56
Originally, didn't the "X" stand for "Experimental"?


yes, in the military.. xm177, xm16e1, for example

Slater
02-07-09, 16:56
No argument there, but looking at the military side of things an "X" prefix denotes Experimental. Evidently it's different for commercial sales.

Slater
02-07-09, 16:59
I just left my local Sportsman's Warehouse and they had about 20 boxes of .22-250, about 10 boxes of .30-06, and about 30 boxes of .45 ACP, AND THAT WAS IT!!!

Not even any .22lr. The guy working the counter told me to come back Tues @ 2 as that's when their delivery comes in. He said last week he saw an elderly couple FILL a cart with ALL the 9mm that came in and buy it all.

If I found a stack of XM193 at my Sportsman's Warehouse, I'd shit a bird, and buy as much as I could without getting DIVORCED!

BUY MORE!


-RD62

Hell, I would have, but all I had in my wallet was $12. Oh well, maybe there'll be some left next week since it doesn't appear to be a sought-after item in these parts :D

markm
02-07-09, 17:09
yes, in the military.. xm177, xm16e1, for example

Perhaps in the military. I don't know.

But XM193 is neither experimental or Military ammo.

bkb0000
02-07-09, 17:12
Perhaps in the military. I don't know.

But XM193 is neither experimental or Military ammo.

werd.

RD62
02-07-09, 20:15
Hell, I would have, but all I had in my wallet was $12. Oh well, maybe there'll be some left next week since it doesn't appear to be a sought-after item in these parts :D

Where is your neck of the woods anyway? If your close to SC, we might have to work something out! :D

-RD62

Slater
02-07-09, 20:20
Arizona, sorry.

Iraqgunz
02-08-09, 03:19
The military still has M193 ammo and using it for punching paper AFAIK. We have about 12 cases of it here and use it for punching paper as well. I believe all of the stuuf I have seen was Lake City produced, but if I am not mistaken ATK-Federal is running Lake City.

markm
02-08-09, 08:52
The military still has M193 ammo and using it for punching paper AFAIK. We have about 12 cases of it here and use it for punching paper as well. I believe all of the stuuf I have seen was Lake City produced, but if I am not mistaken ATK-Federal is running Lake City.

Is your ammo loaded in NATO marked brass?

I'm just curious. I know the mil still has some A1 rifles out there and they do still consume M193. But I'm curious to know if the M193 that the mil uses is run in NATO cross brass.

If it is, my whole theory is shot to hell! :p

Jay Cunningham
02-08-09, 09:17
As you stated earlier, 55 gr .223 ammo is not NATO standardized - M855 is what became NATO standard.

Molon
02-08-09, 14:39
I tried to do some research on what the "X in XM193 stands for. I had been told and read that this means military rejected. Federals techs said that the "X" is to denote the civilian ammo. It is Lake City whether it is White Box A,B,C,D or whatever letter they are using today. The last letter is for packaging. Black box American Eagle is made by Lake City. I was told this in two diferent return phone calls by two different techs. " XM193 is not rejected". It is mil spec Lake City M193 I am sure some will doubt this.


Those with critical thinking skills will indeed “doubt this” as your statement that Federal XM193 meets the mil-spec for M193 is in fact, false. Federal XM193 does not meet the mil-spec for M193 and a simple physical examination of a round of Federal XM193 proves as much.

If one were to spend a few minutes reading the mil-spec for M193, MIL-C-9963D, one would see that M193 must undergo and pass a long chain of quality controls in order to meet the mil-spec requirements. Pictured below is a bullet pulled from a round of Federal XM193. Take a close look at it.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/di49llfmm7.jpg

Now, take a good look at a bullet pulled from a round of M193 pictured below.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/9px7su2k2r.jpg

Be sure to note the distinct and obvious presence of the asphalt sealant on the bullet that is a requirement for mil-spec M193; sealant that is completely absent on the bullet (and case mouth) of the Federal XM193 round. This aspect alone, disqualifies Federal XM193 from meeting the mil-spec requirement for M193.

1911pro
02-09-09, 00:06
Those with critical thinking skills will indeed “doubt this” as your statement that Federal XM193 meets the mil-spec for M193 is in fact, false. Federal XM193 does not meet the mil-spec for M193 and a simple physical examination of a round of Federal XM193 proves as much.

If one were to spend a few minutes reading the mil-spec for M193, MIL-C-9963D, one would see that M193 must undergo and pass a long chain of quality controls in order to meet the mil-spec requirements. Pictured below is a bullet pulled from a round of Federal XM193. Take a close look at it.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/di49llfmm7.jpg

Now, take a good look at a bullet pulled from a round of M193 pictured below.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/9px7su2k2r.jpg

Be sure to note the distinct and obvious presence of the asphalt sealant on the bullet that is a requirement for mil-spec M193; sealant that is completely absent on the bullet (and case mouth) of the Federal XM193 round. This aspect alone, disqualifies Federal XM193 from meeting the mil-spec requirement for M193.

To hone my critical thinking skills a little, I must ask what batch # of federal XM193 the round you examined came from? I am going from what Federal said on more than one phone call. I agree that lack of sealant would disqualify it from meeting " mil-spec". Can you also disprove the fact that it has a rating of 3165fps at 75ft from a 20inch barrel and an energy rating of 1223ft pounds? It is still made by Lake City and boxed by Federal. My post was to tell what Federal said about their own ammo and not put anyones pantys in a bunch. :D

Jay Cunningham
02-09-09, 03:48
My post was to tell what Federal said about their own ammo and not put anyones pantys in a bunch. :D

And our posts have been meant to tell you that what you believe to be true may in fact not be - despite what the person on the other end of the phone at Federal said to you.

Iraqgunz
02-09-09, 04:18
Mark,

Yes, it is all .MIL issue ammo known as DODIC A066/ A071. The lot# indicates that it was produced in 1993 at Lake City. I believe it has the NATO stamp on it, but I will have to pull some to double check it.


Is your ammo loaded in NATO marked brass?

I'm just curious. I know the mil still has some A1 rifles out there and they do still consume M193. But I'm curious to know if the M193 that the mil uses is run in NATO cross brass.

If it is, my whole theory is shot to hell! :p

1911pro
02-09-09, 06:35
And our posts have been meant to tell you that what you believe to be true may in fact not be - despite what the person on the other end of the phone at Federal said to you.

I understand this and appreciate it. I come to M4 because you get the facts most of the time. I have worked in sales for the largest Automotive speed shop in the world for the last 15 years. I do understand manufactures are not always correct on their info. I have learned much from Grant,M4 and its members and would like to thank all of you. The info helps me make the right choices in spending my hard earned money. In my daily job I try to give my customers the correct info, but without being condescending or talking down to them. I know this will make them want to return. This can be hard to do when you have been dealing with something you know so well for so long. I am sure you can relate. I will call Federal today and ask them why the misinformation and see what they say.

markm
02-09-09, 07:47
Mark,

Yes, it is all .MIL issue ammo known as DODIC A066/ A071. The lot# indicates that it was produced in 1993 at Lake City. I believe it has the NATO stamp on it, but I will have to pull some to double check it.

Cool. If it's NATO brass, my conspiracy theory is shot to hell. :D

RogerinTPA
02-09-09, 08:06
So whats the deal with the different letters (C,F, ect..) behind the 3? Different plant facility perhaps?

Saginaw79
02-09-09, 10:37
IDK, their codes confuse me, and thats the first Ive seen a letter behind the type save PD, but thats a whole 'nother argument.

Iraqgunz
02-09-09, 11:34
Here is the official response in reply to my email to Federal.

ME:

Hello,
Can someone please clarify the difference between the various types of
XM193 that Federal sells? Some boxes are marked XM193C, XM193F, XM193A,
etc...is this in relation to the packaging of said ammo? There has been
a lot of discussion about this in various firearms related internet forums. Thank you.

THEM:

All XM193 is the same. The suffix is just a designation for packaging.

markm
02-09-09, 12:00
I had an XM193 round do something strange on Friday.

I had a single round in a mag. I fired it and the bolt locked back but the empty was still in the chamber. I didn't notice it until I tried to chamber my next mag's first round. When I cycled the bolt group, out popped the empty with a damaged case rim where the extracter had ripped at it when it tried to extract the round. :confused:

1911pro
02-09-09, 17:53
Justin at Federal said that their XM193 has both case mouth sealant and primer sealant. He is going to call me back Tuesday and let me know what kind of sealant is used.

bkb0000
02-09-09, 17:58
I had an XM193 round do something strange on Friday.

I had a single round in a mag. I fired it and the bolt locked back but the empty was still in the chamber. I didn't notice it until I tried to chamber my next mag's first round. When I cycled the bolt group, out popped the empty with a damaged case rim where the extracter had ripped at it when it tried to extract the round. :confused:

musta been shooting wolf first. ;)

you got the case out, obviously? notice any cracks or deformaties?

bkb0000
02-09-09, 18:01
i was kinda shocked to see karnak on a bullet... do you suppose it just burns up on detonation? i was green and stupid and didn't know anything when i was in the army, but i dont recall having tar-lined barrel.

markm
02-09-09, 21:25
you got the case out, obviously? notice any cracks or deformaties?

I don't think so. I'll have to dig into the scrap bucket to find it. The rim was damaged from the extractor ripping off of it. But it cycled out just fine by hand. I didn't know it was still in the gun. So I just racked it out not even realizing it.

CAPT KIRK
02-10-09, 21:12
Tried to find the source where I read this, but couldnt as it has been some time. I seem to recall that the "X" denotes that it is manufacured for the domestic market and the "suffix" letters denote the packaging (eg. CBP for Commercial Bulk Pack).

If you look at this "BK" (Bulk Pack) stuff you will see that although the product code is XM193BK it still says in smaller print that it is "M193"

http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/209.php

Nice price too....

If this link doesnt work it may be because they went out of stock.

sgtrock82
02-12-09, 12:30
Does, for some reason, someone already own the rights to the title "M193", causing federal to use the term XM193?

markm
02-12-09, 13:03
Does, for some reason, someone already own the rights to the title "M193", causing federal to use the term XM193?


No. Wolf used M193 in the ammo they imported a while back.

Slater
02-12-09, 13:11
Since Colt lost the "M4" trademark issue, I wonder if anyone can legally claim any type of similar designation?

Molon
02-12-09, 21:01
To hone my critical thinking skills a little, I must ask what batch # of federal XM193 the round you examined came from? I am going from what Federal said on more than one phone call. I agree that lack of sealant would disqualify it from meeting " mil-spec". Can you also disprove the fact that it has a rating of 3165fps at 75ft from a 20inch barrel and an energy rating of 1223ft pounds? It is still made by Lake City and boxed by Federal. My post was to tell what Federal said about their own ammo and not put anyones pantys in a bunch. :D

The lot number of the bullet that I displayed is irrelevant. Myself, as well as others, have pulled-down bullets from multiple lots of Federal XM193 over the last several years that have not had sealant at the case mouth. The point that matters is that while some lots of Federal XM193 ship with case mouth sealant, other lots ship without it. NO LOTS of genuine M193 pass Q/C without case mouth sealant. This simple fact alone proves that your statement that Federal XM193 “is mil spec Lake City M193” is false, regardless of what some sales jockey on the other end of the telephone states; facts versus hearsay and validation versus beliefs.

Also, since Federal ships some lots of XM193 without the case mouth sealant, which clearly disqualifies it from being “mil spec Lake City M193,” neither you nor I have any idea what other aspects of MIL-C-9963D Federal has skimped on with XM193. With genuine M193, I know that the specs for water proofing, accuracy, primer sensitivity, residual stress, port pressure, temperature stability, action time, etc, have been met. Not so with Federal XM193.

The velocity specification for M193 laid out in MIL-C-9963D calls for an instrumental velocity of 3250 fps, plus or minus 40 fps, at 15 feet from the muzzle, with one standard deviation not to exceed 40 fps. This is from a 20” test barrel that does not have a gas system. The M16/AR-15 loses approximately 20 fps due to its direct impingement gas operating system, which gives you a velocity range of approximately 3190 fps to 3270 fps at a distance of 15 feet when fired from a 20” barreled M16/AR-15 (or a muzzle velocity of approximately 3210 fps to 3290 fps depending upon the exact B.C.)

While most of the lots of Federal XM193 that I have chronographed have met this specification, I did have one lot that actually chronographed faster than the spec, again making the statement that Federal XM193 is “mil spec Lake City M193” false.

1911pro
02-13-09, 01:11
The lot number of the bullet that I displayed is irrelevant. Myself, as well as others, have pulled-down bullets from multiple lots of Federal XM193 over the last several years that have not had sealant at the case mouth. The point that matters is that while some lots of Federal XM193 ship with case mouth sealant, other lots ship without it. NO LOTS of genuine M193 pass Q/C without case mouth sealant. This simple fact alone proves that your statement that Federal XM193 “is mil spec Lake City M193” is false, regardless of what some sales jockey on the other end of the telephone states; facts versus hearsay and validation versus beliefs.

Also, since Federal ships some lots of XM193 without the case mouth sealant, which clearly disqualifies it from being “mil spec Lake City M193,” neither you nor I have any idea what other aspects of MIL-C-9963D Federal has skimped on with XM193. With genuine M193, I know that the specs for water proofing, accuracy, primer sensitivity, residual stress, port pressure, temperature stability, action time, etc, have been met. Not so with Federal XM193.

The velocity specification for M193 laid out in MIL-C-9963D calls for an instrumental velocity of 3250 fps, plus or minus 40 fps, at 15 feet from the muzzle, with one standard deviation not to exceed 40 fps. This is from a 20” test barrel that does not have a gas system. The M16/AR-15 loses approximately 20 fps due to its direct impingement gas operating system, which gives you a velocity range of approximately 3190 fps to 3270 fps at a distance of 15 feet when fired from a 20” barreled M16/AR-15 (or a muzzle velocity of approximately 3210 fps to 3290 fps depending upon the exact B.C.)

While most of the lots of Federal XM193 that I have chronographed have met this specification, I did have one lot that actually chronographed faster than the spec, again making the statement that Federal XM193 is “mil spec Lake City M193” false.

First of all, why would I take your word over two techs and one (sales jockey) at Federal? You cannot answer a simple question like batch #. I have a friend like that who worked on a government grant for global warming. If you and others have reported no case mouth sealer what are the head stamps(year made?) You are dealing in absolutes and supply no absolute answers. I have both American Eagle and Federal White box XM193f now that are sealed(head stamp L C 08). Maybe this is not your grandpa's XM193 anymore? I am going with what Federal said on this one. If anyone wants to form an educated opinion on their own you can contact federal at 1-800-322-2506. Leave a message they will call you back.

Army Chief
02-13-09, 04:27
Interesting that we should consider speculative thinking among the general population to now be equal -- or superior -- to a manufacturer's stated position. I understand that company reps often get things wrong when they are reading from a marketing script, but we seem to have at least three separate confirmations here.

At what point should we begin to consider Federal credible when they are addressing their own product?

AC

nacho
02-13-09, 04:46
XM is generally used to denote military ammo. xm193 is made at lake city, its all the rejects that didnt make spec. Mostly lacking primer seal or mouth varnish on the outside of the case, or dented cases or bad mouths. Lake City sells this to Federal, it is then visualized and the really bad stuff is picked out. Letters at the end of types of XM193 denote what type of packaging is used, examples: cardboard, plastic, bulk, linked, etc. Hope this helps.

markm
02-13-09, 08:31
First of all, why would I take your word over two techs and one (sales jockey) at Federal?

For me, FACTS over hearsay every day of the week. You may not be familiar with MOLON. But he's one of the handful of members of TOS with a full functioning brain.

Nothing that Molon has posted contradicts anything that I've observed myself with XM193. And in my experience, MOLON posts only quantifiable FACTS.

Iraqgunz
02-13-09, 09:48
And I guess the final word is...What does it matter? It is after all for a majority of us ammo for plinking and training that can be used for anti-social purposes if needed. It is probably better than the Prvi Partizan and most certainly better than the Wolff garbage floating around. When I am serious about felon-repellent I use Hornady 5.56 TAP ammo. ;)

Molon
02-13-09, 12:42
Interesting that we should consider speculative thinking among the general population to now be equal -- or superior -- to a manufacturer's stated position. I understand that company reps often get things wrong when they are reading from a marketing script, but we seem to have at least three separate confirmations here.

At what point should we begin to consider Federal credible when they are addressing their own product?

AC


Speculate:

To take to be true on the basis of insufficient evidence



There is indeed a whole lot of speculation going on in this thread; by those who would rather believe than analyze. However, nothing that I have posted in this thread has been “speculative”. My posts have been just the opposite; they are based on facts obtained from first hand data and observation. Had you done due diligence on the subject matter, you could have just as easily discovered the same facts for yourself as other people besides myself have.

It’s common knowledge among those who have done their due diligence that Federal XM193 fails to meet the mil-spec for genuine M193 in more ways than one. It’s not a matter of “my word,” it’s a matter of fact; or do you not even believe your own eyes. The pic of the bullet without any case mouth sealant that I posted was from the first lot of Federal XM193 that I discovered that had no sealant at the case mouth; it was from lot #13. I didn't record the lot numbers of future lots that I discovered that had no case mouth sealant because the actual lot number is unimportant; the fact that a single lot of Federal XM193 shipped without case mouth sealant proves that Federal XM193 is not “mil spec Lake City M193.” Again, NO LOTS of genuine M193 pass Q/C without case mouth sealant. Again, since Federal has skimped on this obvious requirement for genuine M193, neither you nor I know how many not-so-obvious requirements they have skimped on. Other persons have discovered for themselves these same facts and this has occurred with multiple lots throughout the last several years.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/0mfbm8q2k0.jpg





Confirmation:

To give new assurance of the validity of; remove doubt by authoritative act or indisputable fact


Hearsay does not qualify as “indisputable fact.” Actual examination and evaluation of cartridges of Federal XM193 and comparing the findings of those examinations and evaluations to the mil-spec for genuine M193 does.

Since you seem to put so much faith in the statements coming out of Federal, here’s a little tid-bit for you. Federal’s own “Product Specification Sheet” for XM193 states the accuracy requirement for XM193 as follows:

“ACCURACY: Three 10-round groups not to exceed 4.00” mean radius maximum average at 200 yards”

The accuracy standard laid out in MIL-C-9963D for genuine M193 is as follows:

“3.7 Accuracy. The average of the mean radii of all targets of the sample cartridges fired at 200 yards, shall not exceed 2.00 inches” This is for ten, 10-round groups.

By Federal’s own words, XM193 is allowed to have groups that are TWICE AS LARGE as those required for genuine M193. Yet again, proof that the statement that Federal XM193 is “mil spec Lake City M193” is false. Hearsay versus facts that Federal XM193 does not meet MIL-C-9963D requirements for accuracy, does not meet MIL-C-9963D for velocity and does not meet MIL-C-9963D for water proofing. What was that you were saying about speculation?

Also, the telephone receptionists at Federal that you put so much faith in, can’t even keep their stories straight with what their higher-ups at ATK (the current contract operator of the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant) have stated. Jason Nash, Group Lead, Communication - ATK Ammunition and Related Products Group is quoted on The Gun Zone admitting that Federal XM193 “may not meet all of the mil-spec requirements.” Now, what was that you were saying about confirmation?



Yours truly,

MGP

(Member of the General Population)

nacho
02-13-09, 13:00
Sorry I didn't have much sleep. I forgot to mention that what I stated was not hearsay and was just trying to help out. My grandpa retired from there, my father just retired from there and I just got laid off two weeks ago from there. I kinda have a little inside knowledge about things going on. BTW your 'techs' are just customer service reps. I'm betting if you gave them a round of 7.62x39 and one of 5.56 and didnt let them look at the bottom they couldn't tell you which one was xm193. If you want answers call product service and go to one of the senior guys otherwise they won't know beans.

Molon
02-13-09, 13:09
Sorry I didn't have much sleep. I forgot to mention that what I stated was not hearsay and was just trying to help out. My grandpa retired from there, my father just retired from there and I just got laid off two weeks ago from there. I kinda have a little inside knowledge about things going on. BTW your 'techs' are just customer service reps. I'm betting if you gave them a round of 7.62x39 and one of 5.56 and didnt let them look at the bottom they couldn't tell you which one was xm193. If you want answers call product service and go to one of the senior guys otherwise they won't know beans.

Dear Sir,

My above post was in no way directed at you.

Molon

nacho
02-13-09, 16:46
LOL, no I was backing you up and just saying what xm193 really is from someone who was on the inside.;)

CLHC
02-26-09, 20:39
Speaking of Federal XM193s, saw eight (8) boxes/cases of one thousand (1,000) rounds at a local shop for three hundred ninety-nine dollars ($399.00). All the other places in my neck of the woods are "dry" regarding these ammunition in 5.56mm NATO/.223 Remington. Also seems to be that way with quite a few online sellers--"Temporarily Out of Stock".

Iraqgunz
02-27-09, 10:36
Had I been on scene I would have snatched 2 cases of it. Especially now.


Speaking of Federal XM193s, saw eight (8) boxes/cases of one thousand (1,000) rounds at a local shop for three hundred ninety-nine dollars ($399.00). All the other places in my neck of the woods are "dry" regarding these ammunition in 5.56mm NATO/.223 Remington. Also seems to be that way with quite a few online sellers--"Temporarily Out of Stock".

DocGKR
02-27-09, 11:18
Folks,

As noted several times in this thread by knowledgeable posters, XM193 is NOT milspec M193, as XM193 has failed to meet some aspect of the military specification and is thus rejected. XM193 may also be produced by ATK for commercial sales where there is no requirement to meet the milspec...

bernieb90
02-27-09, 11:27
I can't figure out what the problem is here. So XM193 is not milspec. So what neither is Hornady TAP FPD, Federal Tactical, Winchester Ranger, or any of the other dozens of loads that we rely on. For the most part XM193 is good ammo, but like any other mass produced items will most certainly have some bad parts that get through. FWIW most commercial ammo is not sealed, and does not meet strict requirements for velocity, or accuracy. If you find a lot of sealed XM193 you can store it and shoot the usealed stuff for training.

Jay Cunningham
02-27-09, 13:15
I can't figure out what the problem is here. So XM193 is not milspec. So what neither is Hornady TAP FPD, Federal Tactical, Winchester Ranger, or any of the other dozens of loads that we rely on. For the most part XM193 is good ammo, but like any other mass produced items will most certainly have some bad parts that get through. FWIW most commercial ammo is not sealed, and does not meet strict requirements for velocity, or accuracy. If you find a lot of sealed XM193 you can store it and shoot the usealed stuff for training.

Because words mean things - at least they should.

taliv
02-27-09, 14:02
hey DocGKR and others,

are you aware if anyone has inspected the PRVI m193 to see if it actually meets the specs?

i've disassembled several cases of it now, but the bullets were moving so fast, i didn't get a chance to look at the sealant :D

CLHC
02-27-09, 14:55
Had I been on scene I would have snatched 2 cases of it. Especially now.
I procrastinate too much. :confused: Hopefully tomorrow. . .:p

1911pro
02-27-09, 23:30
Had I been on scene I would have snatched 2 cases of it. Especially now.

Just make sure it is not some of that evil non sealed "Lot 13",that was made by the devil himself. I have heard 13 is an unlucky number and anyway it is not "mil spec".:rolleyes:

SoDak
03-01-09, 14:52
Can I assume then that XM193BK is ok to get? I found some and want to know if it's good.

DocGKR
03-01-09, 14:57
XM193 is good practice ammo, so is AE, so is WWB, and so is BH blue box. Get a few thousand rounds then go train...

SoDak
03-01-09, 22:38
XM193 is good practice ammo, so is AE, so is WWB, and so is BH blue box. Get a few thousand rounds then go train...

That's good to know. I just read a few folks having troubles with the bulk stuff and it worried me a little, but I can get this stuff at a relatively good price for this day and age. Of course it does cost more than I ever thought about spending on 5.56, but I guess that's just how it is.

CLHC
03-01-09, 23:00
I procrastinate too much. :confused: Hopefully tomorrow. . .:p
Guess I'm fell into being "a little too late to do the right thing now!" Over at the place I saw earlier, they're all sold out, even the three (3) dozen boxes of five hundreds (500s) they had sitting next to it! What's left are a bunch of Black Hills Ammunitions in boxes of fifties (50s) that costs like mid thirty to forty something and change! Also noticed that the shelf of nine millimeters (9mms) are now empty, and that shelf was full! :o

Oh, well. . .

bfoosh006
03-04-09, 02:17
......... http://www.odcmp.org/303/default.asp?page=Humility (http://www.odcmp.org/303/default.asp?page=Humility)http://www.ammoman.com/images/223%20XM193A1.jpg and do a search for XM118, you'll find its from the 60's,, check out the ammo box photos..... and the second link is for Fed. 80 grain, note the XM listing....interesting, Huh?

Tango2249
03-04-09, 06:27
I've got a store by me selling Federal AE223Bk 1000 RD cases for $415. How does that ammo compare to the XM193? I know he XM193 is 5.56 and the AE223 is .223. Will one be more accurate for range use over the other?

thanks for any info you guys can provide!

markm
03-04-09, 07:50
Will one be more accurate for range use over the other?


Not really. They're both decent but I've never noticed a significant diff between the two.

Bhagwan
03-04-09, 19:42
Ok are the primers crimped on the XM193? My local store has quite a bit of it and doesn't seem to have any problem getting it so I am wondering if I will have to swage the primer pocket to reload it.

markm
03-04-09, 20:38
Ok are the primers crimped on the XM193? My local store has quite a bit of it and doesn't seem to have any problem getting it so I am wondering if I will have to swage the primer pocket to reload it.

They are most definitely crimped, but much of the brass is reloadable without doing anything to the pocket... it just depends on what you get.

You can buy the hornady hand tool for like $18 and easily do a thousand rounds if you shoot a little at a time.... or put the bit into a hand drill and do all thousand in one sitting.

Iraqgunz
03-05-09, 09:32
Mark,

I checked some of that military M193 ammo that we have. The casing definitely has a NATO stamp on the back. According to the lot# it was produced at Lake City in March 2002.

markm
03-05-09, 10:51
Great! My conspiracy theory is shot to shit. :p

FromMyColdDeadHand
03-06-09, 07:37
This stuff makes my head hurt. I know I'm coming late to the party, but I thought the m193 was never a NATO round?

I bought XM193 thinking that it was sealed, not that it really matters to me, but it is just basement ammo for the reckoning ;) I was really hopin gnot to pop my cases to see what I actually have.

All I know is that it way to expensive.

bigthunder223
03-06-09, 22:47
You guys can argue about this crap until your peckers hurt,but I intend to buy as much of the XM193 I can while I can.It is good ammunition.

ROADKING
03-06-09, 23:46
I understand this and appreciate it. I come to M4 because you get the facts most of the time. I have worked in sales for the largest Automotive speed shop in the world for the last 15 years. I do understand manufactures are not always correct on their info. I have learned much from Grant,M4 and its members and would like to thank all of you. The info helps me make the right choices in spending my hard earned money. In my daily job I try to give my customers the correct info, but without being condescending or talking down to them. I know this will make them want to return. This can be hard to do when you have been dealing with something you know so well for so long. I am sure you can relate. I will call Federal today and ask them why the misinformation and see what they say.

You must work at summit racing.

Iraqgunz
03-07-09, 02:53
All that I know is we have several cases of military issue M193 ball ammo (just like I used in basic in 1986 for our M16A1's) and the brass has a NATO stamp on the casing. I would assume that it is due to the fact that it is made at Lake City and therefore they are using the same brass as the M855.

The ammo shoots good and we only use it for 25M death.


This stuff makes my head hurt. I know I'm coming late to the party, but I thought the m193 was never a NATO round?

I bought XM193 thinking that it was sealed, not that it really matters to me, but it is just basement ammo for the reckoning ;) I was really hopin gnot to pop my cases to see what I actually have.

All I know is that it way to expensive.

1911pro
03-07-09, 06:11
You must work at summit racing.
Yes Sir.

ROADKING
03-07-09, 07:46
Which summit, ohio or nevada.

stlyns
03-07-09, 12:34
All that I know is we have several cases of military issue M193 ball ammo (just like I used in basic in 1986 for our M16A1's) and the brass has a NATO stamp on the casing. I would assume that it is due to the fact that it is made at Lake City and therefore they are using the same brass as the M855.

The ammo shoots good and we only use it for 25M death.

I agree, that is the most sensible explanation for the NATO stamp on XM193 brass. I don't buy the "factory reject" theory, the liability alone would seem to preclude its use. The "X" prefix is probably nothing more than an arbitrary letter/code/symbol differentiating that specific ammunition from the original M193 mil-spec ammo that was used before the M855

Shihan
03-07-09, 14:30
I don't buy the "factory reject" theory, the liability alone would seem to preclude its use.

ATK sells alot of mil ammo that was not approved for mil use. The ammo that is sold is taken off the line because of often very minor things like mis-application of primer sealent. What they do sell is servicable just one of the rounds being not acceptable by the inspectors gets the whole lot pulled down.

CLHC
03-07-09, 21:30
Speaking of Federal XM193s, saw eight (8) boxes/cases of one thousand (1,000) rounds at a local shop for three hundred ninety-nine dollars ($399.00). All the other places in my neck of the woods are "dry" regarding these ammunition in 5.56mm NATO/.223 Remington. Also seems to be that way with quite a few online sellers--"Temporarily Out of Stock".
Went back again to the same local and counted thirty (30) cases of said ammo with the "C" designation at the end of XM193. These boxes were just sitting there.

Also about two (2) dozen one thousand (1000) round count boxes of Sellier & Bellot and HSM in same said caliber in gr 55.

Shelf was also full of 9mms once again.

Shihan
03-08-09, 04:32
Went back again to the same local and counted thirty (30) cases of said ammo with the "C" designation at the end of XM193. These boxes were just sitting there.

Also about two (2) dozen one thousand (1000) round count boxes of Sellier & Bellot and HSM in same said caliber in gr 55.

Shelf was also full of 9mms once again.

Whats the selling price of the XM193?

CLHC
03-08-09, 09:47
Whats the selling price of the XM193?
They were going $399 for box of 1000 rounds and $225 for box of 500 rounds.

Skintop911
03-08-09, 09:50
Several Cabelas stores in the midwest (Rogers, Owatonna, Rapid City, Mitchell, and La Vista particularly) all had big stacks of 1000rd bulk packs of XM193 for $399. No shortage, and all had been sitting for some time.

SoDak
03-08-09, 10:07
Several Cabelas stores in the midwest (Rogers, Owatonna, Rapid City, Mitchell, and La Vista particularly) all had big stacks of 1000rd bulk packs of XM193 for $399. No shortage, and all had been sitting for some time.

I only saw two cases left at the Rapid City Cabelas on Friday, when I went to pick up my case of xm193. There were seven there on monday when I put my case on layaway. The neat trick with cabelas was that they had a promotion where if you spent more than $150, you got $20 off. This meant that after tax, the cost was only $403.99. I had done an ammo hunt around town the day before and cabelas was actualy the cheapest(go figure).

Saginaw79
03-08-09, 18:04
Ive heard this argued over numerous forums and many years.

But XM193 is not the same as M193

The biggest difference being the casing is not sealed around the neck like in military ammo

Though a lot of the codes behind it are new to me, used to be just XM193 and XM193PD, now there F etc; and Federal cant or wont say what all their codes mean

markm
03-09-09, 08:15
Ive heard this argued over numerous forums and many years.

But XM193 is not the same as M193

The biggest difference being the casing is not sealed around the neck like in military ammo

Though a lot of the codes behind it are new to me, used to be just XM193 and XM193PD, now there F etc; and Federal cant or wont say what all their codes mean

Huh?

SOME of the XM193 has been reported as not having complete sealant, but not all of it.

Federal has said to several people that the codes indicate packaging, and that there is NO DIFF between any of the XM193 ammos.

Jay Cunningham
03-11-09, 20:06
I ran this question past Ken Elmore. His response:


Hey, J

From what I have been told by one of the engineers at the plant—who attended the armorer class for 3 days and invited me to the factory…

XM193 is M193 that did not pass inspection—Federal feels it is PLENTY good for “civilian” ammo. I have shot plenty myself.

Bottom line—Federal did NOT load this ammo for the commercial market—it just ended up there.

What does “reject” really mean? I would not like to get hit by any.

Take Care,

K-

markm
03-12-09, 08:33
That's different that what Tina told me. But maybe Ken talked to his guy since then. She recommended I go to SprawlMart and buy the Remington ammo in the Green box. :eek:

S.A.W. also made this recommendation 10 years ago when I first went to their old shop. I was shocked to hear Tina still recommending REM just a few months back.

CLHC
04-18-09, 18:59
Once again, this afternoon while at the local GD, I saw behind the counter a couple of thousand round cases of Federal XM193(x) priced at $629.99 (Six Hundred Twenty-Nine and Ninety-Nine! ! !) :eek:

Wanted to take a quick pic-shot with my digi-cell, but didn't have it on my person. . .

frbowers
04-18-09, 20:56
I recently picked up 1500 rounds of XM193 to use in an upcoming Jim Smith class for $700 delivered. At that price it sold out in a few hours. I've had good luck with XM193 having purchased about 5000 rounds of it in the last year or so. Can't tell any difference between the various ending letters other than the packaging. Most of what's out there now seems to be bulk packed.

nacho
04-19-09, 07:50
Letters just denote what type of packaging is used.

CLHC
07-18-09, 03:11
Just noticed that Rainier Arms LLC has Federal XM193 5.56mm gr 55 in stock for those interested. :cool:

bfoosh006
08-03-09, 21:25
http://www.ammoman.com/images/223%20XM193A1.jpg....follow the link to more "XM" .223 ammo from Federal