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WillBrink
03-04-09, 18:55
The Creatine Grave Yard
By Will Brink © 2009

Looks like another “high tech” form of creatine has got one foot planted firmly in the creatine grave yard. What is the creatine graveyard? It’s where forms of creatine - other then monohydrate - go when either science has shown them inferior to monohydrate, and or it’s life cycle of hype has come to and end.

I refer specifically to creatine ethyl ester (CEE). As with the many “high tech” forms of creatine before it, all manner of claims were/are made about how superior it is to creatine monohydrate (CM). It always starts the same. First the company will invent a long list of negatives about CM such as “poorly absorbed” or “causes bloat” or “is not stable” and then goes onto claim their form of creatine has solved all those invented negatives. The problem is, the data already shows CM does not suffer from virtually any of the negatives they invent, nor do they show their form “cures” those negatives. Sellers of CCE for example claimed CEE was better absorbed and utilized vs. CM, and that has been shown to be nonsense. There have been several in vitro (test tube) studies pointing to the fact CEE is inferior to CM, but a recent study done in humans puts a final nail in the coffin as far as I am concerned. This study is titled “The effects of creatine ethyl ester supplementation combined with heavy resistance training on body composition, muscle performance, and serum and muscle creatine levels” The full study is public access and can be read here:

CEE Study (http://www.jissn.com/content/6/1/6)

Warning, the abstract is confusing and not well written. If you read the full paper, it’s clearer. If you don’t have the time or interest to read it, the take home is: although all subjects in this study (CEE vs. CM vs. Placebo) experienced approximately the same effects; they all had improvements in bodycomp and got stronger. Why? Because they used untrained subjects in the study. Thus, a drawback of this study was due to using untrained people, they couldn’t differentiate between PL, CEE, and CM in terms of effects on bodycomp and strength within that time period as newbies always make fast progress in the beginning. No news there.

However, the study did achieve the essential point, which is it clearly showed the claims of CEE false: CEE had much higher creatinine levels and lower muscle creatine levels compared to CM in this study, thus, yet again, the claims by sellers of CEE that it’s superior to CM and that CM is “poorly absorbed” or “causes bloat,” or my favorite “CM is not stable,” etc are false. They also looked at changes in water compartments (CEE actually had a trend toward greater extra cellular water then CM BTW, so there goes that stupid “no bloat” claim for CEE…) and other issues claimed to make CEE superior, and it failed.

CEE is less stable then CM, increases creatinine to a much greater extent then CM, and is inferior for increasing muscle creatine levels to CM. This study is not perfect by any means, but when combined with what else exists, and the counter studies sellers of CEE offer (which is to say zero), well you don’t have to be a scientist to see the writing on the wall there…

CEE will be added to the creatine graveyard with a ton of others all claiming to be superior to CM which all started with big claims and now sit in the grave yard.

Two essential points about the grave yard before we get to that:

(1) Because they are in the grave yard does not mean they are worthless. Some forms, such as magnesium creatine chelate for example looked promising, but a head to head study with CM found it no better. Remember, another form does not have to show it’s the equal of CM, it has to show it’s superior to CM per its claims. Forms such as creatine pyruvate and many others on the list may be just as effective as CM, but not superior, so it comes down to cost. Others on the list have in fact been proven inferior to CM in studies, such as serum creatine, various liquid creatine versions, and now CEE. Serum creatine was all the rage a few years ago, and studies found not only was it inferior to CM in every respect, it contained virtually no creatine! Of course, there were still those on the various forums using ‘bro logic’ with “bro, I don’t care what the studies say, it works like da bomb for me!” posts, but I digress….Finally, other forms on the list simply lack any data at all to compare to CM. The companies selling these forms will routinely make claims of superiority with nadda for hard data to support them. Therefore, it’s impossible to really separate fact from fiction (i.e., marketing hype) to recommend them.

Me, I will use what has literally hundreds of studies to support its efficacy and safety over a form with zero data to support it’s claims of superiority over CM. Thus, they get put into the grave yard. Future studies may get them out of the graveyard, but I aint holding my breath…

(2) CM is not perfect. It’s not very soluble, and in about 30% of users, does not appear to work at all. At higher doses, generally above 3g-5g or so in a single dose, can cause stomach upset for some, among other small, but significant drawbacks for some users. Therefore, I am in favor of continued research into improved delivery technologies, improved forms of creatine, and so on. I’m all for it, but as they say, don’t piss on me and tell me it’s raining. In God we trust, everyone else must show data. Hard data talks, BS walks.

I could randomly take two forms from the list below, say dicreatine malate and creatine ethyl carbonate ester and make dicreatine malate creatine ethyl carbonate*, but would it be superior to CM? Unknown as there would be no data. I could just invent a bunch of unproven claims like others do and sell the stuff… Do companies just invent a form of creatine for no other reason then it sound “high tech”? Hell, one company (BSN) is currently in court over one form they sell, called CEM3 or “Creatine Ethyl Ester Malate” which according to the charges “does not exist and is impossible to manufacture”! As I said, CM is not perfect and I am all for continued research into improved (vs. just different!) forms of creatine and or improved delivery technologies, but companies should do their due diligence on these products and stop with all the hype and CM bashing to sell unproven products.

So, without further delay, here is my current list for the creatine graveyard:

The Creatine Graveyard List:

Creatine ethyl ester (CEE)
creatine pyruvate
creatine taurinate
creatine ethyl ester malate
creatine ethyl carbonate ester
creatine gluconate
creatine malate
dicreatine malate
tricreatine malate
creatine citrate
tricreatine citrate
Kre-Alkalyn
creatine phosphate
creatine alpha-ketoglutarate
creatine-6,8-thioctic Acid-ketoisocaproic Acid Calcium (CREAKIC)
creatine pyroglutamate
“conjugated creatine” (Con-Cret)
magnesium creatine chelate
creatine anhydrous
dicreatine orotate
tricreatine orotate
creatine alpha-amino butyrate
creatine HMB
“titrated creatine”
“creatine serum”
“liquid creatine”

Also:
glycocyamine (precursor)
creatinol-o-phosphate (analog)

* = for the sake of an example. I have no idea if such a form is chemically possible, nor do I care.

Blake
03-04-09, 19:26
In your opinion is creatine monohydrate and effective supplement in the simple form? I have had good luck, the past with monohydrate, as well as other forms. If the "extra" stuff is fluff, next time I use creatine. I'll just buy the basic powder.

WillBrink
03-04-09, 19:37
In your opinion is creatine monohydrate and effective supplement in the simple form?

Yes, in about 70% of people it works alone. About 30% are "non responders" as mentioned above. Taking with a dose of high GI/simple carbs such as dextrose seems to reduce the % of non responders. Taken with Vitargo appears to work best of all.


I have had good luck, the past with monohydrate, as well as other forms. If the "extra" stuff is fluff, next time I use creatine. I'll just buy the basic powder.

Basic powder works fine. I prefer micronized creatine as it mixes and disolves faster. Most of what is found in the mixed formulas is fluff and sugar. You don't have to pay a lot of $$$ for sugar.

Ghostface03
03-04-09, 19:46
Creatine graveyard.
Ha, very interesting. I am with you, only stick with CM.

Blake
03-04-09, 20:24
I have never seen results from creatine like I did the very first time I used it. I'm changing training programs shortly, and I am considering taking it. I would like to see good results.

Does it appear to make a difference if it is taken with OJ or other type of juice?

WillBrink
03-05-09, 07:49
I have never seen results from creatine like I did the very first time I used it. I'm changing training programs shortly, and I am considering taking it. I would like to see good results.

Does it appear to make a difference if it is taken with OJ or other type of juice?

You really want to use a high GI carb such as dextrose or maltodextrin (both of whch are cheap and easy to find on the 'net) or if you wanna spend the $$$, Vitargo. Fruit juice is fructose and other sugars, which are not optimal. Of the fruit juices, grape is generally considered the best as it's higher in glucose.

Blake
03-05-09, 14:14
Will,

Do you believe in the loading phase of creatine. I have seen a lot of articles and research, and trainers express that the loading phase is completely unnecessary. I would think that it seems ridiculous to load up like this. I have doubt that your body will absorb 1/3 of the creatine recommended in a loading phase.

WillBrink
03-05-09, 14:23
Will,

Do you believe in the loading phase of creatine. I have seen a lot of articles and research, and trainers express that the loading phase is completely unnecessary. I would think that it seems ridiculous to load up like this. I have doubt that your body will absorb 1/3 of the creatine recommended in a loading phase.

I think you're on target there. Studies generally show the loading phase is not needed. It just takes longer to saturate, about 30 days, vs a week when loading, but no stomach issues, etc people get from loading. 3-5g per day will do it. ;)

PS, just did a podcast for Muscular Development that covers creatine, and other topics of interest:

http://www.musculardevelopment.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1468&Itemid=182

randolph
03-06-09, 08:39
You really want to use a high GI carb such as dextrose or maltodextrin (both of whch are cheap and easy to find on the 'net) or if you wanna spend the $$$, Vitargo. Fruit juice is fructose and other sugars, which are not optimal. Of the fruit juices, grape is generally considered the best as it's higher in glucose.

yep.
100% natural, purple grape juice...

I used to live the life of a BB, bought grape juice by the gallon :p

panzerr
03-06-09, 09:43
My creatine graveyard list includes every supplement available that has creatine.

Why anyone would put crap like this (or any other supplement save for natural proteins like whey and egg) into their bodies to try to get a little size (which typically is nothing more than water and will vanish as soon as they stop using the product) is beyond me. Any benefit a person may get from using this stuff is short term and certainly outweighed by the fact that we simply don't know what it will do to a person in the long term.

If you can't do it with persistence, effort and a great deal of pain it wasn't meant to be.

WillBrink
03-07-09, 15:28
My creatine graveyard list includes every supplement available that has creatine.

Why anyone would put crap like this (or any other supplement save for natural proteins like whey and egg) into their bodies to try to get a little size (which typically is nothing more than water and will vanish as soon as they stop using the product) is beyond me. Any benefit a person may get from using this stuff is short term and certainly outweighed by the fact that we simply don't know what it will do to a person in the long term.

If you can't do it with persistence, effort and a great deal of pain it wasn't meant to be.

I really can't agree with most of the above. CM is very well studied, has all manner of potential health benefits, and the gains made are not simply water. Regarding some of the above, the podcast I just did for MD covers some of those comments. CM has its uses and is a legit supp with various uses in a wide variety of populations. If you are interested in the topic, I put together a report on creatine that covers virtually everything one needs to know about this supp. It’s written for both end users and more science minded types, clinicians, docs, etc. that want science based info on creatine. Below is the table of contents for your perusal. The report is a Free download can be found at www.creatine-report.com. I assume it’s too big a file to attach to this post.

Table of contents.

Intro to creatine

Section one:

What is creatine?

How does creatine work?

Section Two:

Creatine and sarcopenia

Effects of creatine on older adults

The secret of aging: cellular energetics

Anti-inflammatory effects of creatine

Creatine effects on the function of healthy and damaged brains.

Creatine and the healthy brain

Creatine and neuromuscular diseases

More brain related research: Creatine and neurological protection

Creatine and heart function

References for Section Two:

Section Three

Effects on Growth Hormone (GH)

Creatine may reduce homocysteine levels

Creatine and chronic fatigue/fibromyalgia

Creatine safety issues: fact or fiction?

References for Section Three:

Section Four

Recommended doses

To load or not to load

Creatine and athletics

The creatine and sugar story

Pre made creatine/sugar mixtures

Purity issues

So who sells Creapure brand creatine?

Conclusion

Additional references of interest

Impact
03-07-09, 15:51
I'm all "natural"... :D

panzerr
03-08-09, 09:32
I really can't agree with most of the above.



I respect that, I simply don't trust studies that are oftentimes funded by the very companies responsible for profiting off a product...I trust what I've seen. On every deployment I've seen the guys study up on their 'products', take then on a lab-rat like schedule and get results, however these results haven't been permanent, even when the guys I've known after coming home kept lifting.

I own two gyms and have been lifting and training in Kenpo for years and have seen my fair share of quasi-juicers that rely too much on their products and not enough on sheer effort and the willingness to endure pain to reach their goals. Perhaps I'm jaded, but as I stated my personal experience of watching others on these products has led me to believe the short-term gain does not outweigh any long term risk.

And I'm not talking strictly about the risk of what these products can do to your system. There is one risk that people overlook -long lasting physical injury as a result from stressing your body with lifting too heavy, too long when jacked up on products.

WillBrink
03-08-09, 09:57
I respect that, I simply don't trust studies that are oftentimes funded by the very companies responsible for profiting off a product...s.

That's a fair comment. I have been part of the research on creatine and or talked with many of the primary researchers, done consulting work for various companies that produce, etc, so that's one supp I know inside and out, who did the studies, and so on. It's one of the few I consider on very solid ground on all fronts and is GTG. I agree on the lab rat thing, but that's part of doing some homework/research on supps to know what's worth using and well founded in science and what's not.Below is an abstract from a poster session I presented at the International Society of Sports Nutrition (ISSN) conference. It looks at supplement use by SOF. The full poster session can be downloaded (which has additional info/stats in addition to the abstract) if interested. Heres the abstract:



Brink W, Task specific supplements for Special Operations Forces and law enforcement tactical teams. Brink Consulting Group, Natick MA, 01760, USA,]


Special Operations Forces (SOF) such as Navy SEALs, Army Special Forces, Air Force Para-Rescue, and Marine Recon, as well as law enforcement tactical units (SWAT), face unique challenges that manifest themselves both physically and mentally. The extremes of training and combat can dramatically reduce performance: Immune suppression; changes in mental acuity/increases in reaction time; reductions in androgen production (testosterone); increased susceptibility to cold; increased oxidative stress; and other factors will affect the performance of these soldiers directly or indirectly. Many soldiers in special operations are turning to the use of nutritional supplements in hopes that it will combat some of the problems listed above. For example, the Naval Health Research Center examined the use of nutritional supplements by SEALs and found approximately 78% of the Naval Special Warfare community poled currently use a variety of nutritional supplements ( "Use of supplements by Navy SEALs" Med.Sci.in Sports.Excercise. Vol.30, Number 5 (S) 1998). The study also found that the source of information SEALs relied on in choosing which supplements to use came from their fellow operators and bodybuilding magazines. Neither of these sources would be considered as accurate and unbiased sources of information. A dietary supplement survey given to 2,215 men entering U.S. Army Special Forces and Ranger training schools (Arsenault J, Kennedy J..Dietary supplement use in U.S. Army Special Operations candidates. Mil Med. 1999.Jul;164(7):495-501) found Eighty-five percent of the men reported past or present use of a supplement, 64% reported current use, and 35% reported daily use of nutritional supplements for a variety of reasons. It is reasonable to assume similar figures exist for other branches of the US military in regards to its special operations units. An ever-growing body of research is demonstrating that certain nutritional supplements have the potential to greatly assist performance and overall health of SOF soldiers and law enforcement tactical teams. However, these supplements must be specific to the populations in question and must be validated for efficacy and long term safety. The vast majority of people, including most medical professionals and nutritionists, have only a rudimentary understanding of nutritional supplements, and little knowledge regarding what SOF/SWAT operators face in training or combat. Knowledge of both is required for future development to take place. Various compounds have been tested with military personnel and have been found to be effective at improving endurance, reaction times, resistance to cold, and protection from hearing and lung protection against High-energy impulse noise (BLAST) as well as other efficacious outcomes that may improve the health and longevity of these soldiers and civilian tactical team operators.

Tzoid
04-04-09, 17:43
Thanks for all the great information.. I am a huge fan of Creatine Monohydrate and 12 years ago used it and was very happy with the results. I would mix it with Grape juice and definitly felt the benefits. I always made sure I drank at least 100oz or more of water to make certain I am well hydrated.... I recently started working out in the past 60 days and I was using EAS Phosphagen Elite and I feel it's not as what I remember when I used CM years ago. I also tried the Creatine with Nitric Oxide products like NO-Explode and am thinking about NO-Shotgun.

What is your opinion ?

WillBrink
04-04-09, 17:57
Thanks for all the great information.. I am a huge fan of Creatine Monohydrate and 12 years ago used it and was very happy with the results. I would mix it with Grape juice and definitly felt the benefits. I always made sure I drank at least 100oz or more of water to make certain I am well hydrated.... I recently started working out in the past 60 days and I was using EAS Phosphagen Elite and I feel it's not as what I remember when I used CM years ago. I also tried the Creatine with Nitric Oxide products like NO-Explode and am thinking about NO-Shotgun.

What is your opinion ?

Hard to say really. Too many unknowns and variables there to pin point an answer as to why it worked for you better years ago. Not sure this will make any difference, but make sure to use the purist CM out there (Creapure) and make sure it's fully dissolved as non dissolved creatine = wasted creatine. Try mixing it with either dextrose or maltodextrin, both of which are cheap and easy to find on the 'net. If you want to try what appears to be a superior carb source, I recommend Vitargo. My article on the topic can be found on the Muscular Development web page* as well as on my hone page.

* = http://www.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/1451/51/

Tzoid
04-04-09, 18:21
any opinion on the Nitric oxide Creatine supplements?

Spade
04-04-09, 18:26
I'm all "natural"... :D


yep same here. All 235 lbs. of um well not really muscle

WillBrink
04-04-09, 18:30
any opinion on the Nitric oxide Creatine supplements?

Yes, a waste of $$$$. It's a long story, but NO supplements, usually based on good old arginine, don't do jack for muscle mass or strength. The company that first sold "NO" style supplements, funded several studies which found they didn't do jack. Give you a mild pump in the gym, yes, actually increase LBM and or strength? No. Creatine (in the form of CM) is a well studied supplement with a long established track record. NO type supplements are a fad, that will fade. Back in the 80s, they sold arginine as a GH releaser. Now, they sell it as an NO releaser, and arginine didn't build muscle in the 80s, and it don't now. There may actually be medical applications for arginine and such, but as a real muscle builder there's better $$$ spent.

WS6
04-04-09, 19:17
Meh, I am taking ISO-MASS currently. I am using it to help myself bulk, in addition to a balnced diet. Including the Isomass, I am getting 3500 or so clean calories per day. Here is a rough break-down of what is in each serving of Isomass when mixed with 2% Milk:

940 KCal Total:

150 fat KCal
30mg Chol.

500mg Na

110G total carbs (5DE Maltodextrin, Dextrose, Oat Fiber)
6G fiber
5G sugar
(tells me there is a TON of good, complex carbs in here! Definitely something for pre or VERY soon post-work out, or before 4pm or so on my schedual)

72g Protein (Whey protein Isolate, Milk Protein Isolate, Egg protein isolate, micellar Alpha and beta Caaseins and Caseinates, Lactoferrin)

About 33% of every vitamin known to man, lol

7g Creatine (Creatin Mono, Tricreatine Malate, Kre-Alkalyn, Creatine Orotate, Creatine Alpha Ketogluterate, Creatine Ethyl Ester, Creatine Pyruvate)

2.2G Glutamine (Glutapure Glutamine, Glutamine Alpha, Ketoglutinate, Glutamin Ethyl Ester, N-acetyl L-Glutamine)

NO 500 mg (Arginine Alpha Ketogluterate, Arginine Ethyle Ester Di-HCL, Citrulline Ethyl Ester Malate, L-Norvaline)

BCAA's 550mG (l-valine, L....screw it, tonnes of "L-XXX's")

Creatine Precursor 500mg (Betaine, Glycocyamine)

Enzymes 250mg (Protease, Lactase)


This is my not so secret weapon that I get 1500 kCal from per day during my next 2 months of bulking. I want to gain 10-15# and then cut down 5-10# or so from what I gain for a total weight of 175-180 and 8% body fat (starting at 173 and 10.5% bf)

Any thoughts/critique of my supplement choice for my goals?

WS6
04-04-09, 19:22
any opinion on the Nitric oxide Creatine supplements?

When I was younger I took some NO2 (I am 23 now, was 19 then). Results:

I added 1/2" to my arm and KEPT it . Was it the NO2 or a better ruitine based on placebo effect? No clue, and I won't make claims.

Also, to be frank, it added some size where it REALLY matters. :cool:
As a vaso-dialator, this is no suprise. No, I didn't turn into Dirk Diggler, but it WAS noticeable to both me and my girlfriend at the time. She actually commented on it before I really noticed it myself. THis girl was also hyper-sensitive to her environment and could accurately look at me and tell a weight gain of +- 3# or greater, so don't expect to add inches or anything stupid. The gain there, sadly, was temporary.

Yojimbo
04-05-09, 08:59
Will,

When I did a search for Creapure a bunch of different brands came u showing products with the Creapure label.

Is there a particular brand you recommend?

WillBrink
04-05-09, 09:14
Will,

When I did a search for Creapure a bunch of different brands came u showing products with the Creapure label.

Is there a particular brand you recommend?

More or less, what ever your best price on Creapure is fine. I use micronized (because it's so much easier to mix up) creatine/Creapure from the Life Extension:

http://search.lef.org/cgi-src-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0&page_id=1123&query=creatine&hiword=CREATINEA%20CREATINES%20CREATININ%20creatine%20

The LEF is a good company, and I have done consulting work, etc. for them in the past.

Yojimbo
04-05-09, 09:22
Thanks Will!

WillBrink
09-12-09, 17:26
Just confirms what I said in the Creatine Graveyard a while back:

Biochemical and Biophysical Research Communications
Volume 388, Issue 2, 16 October 2009, Pages 252-255


Non-enzymatic cyclization of creatine ethyl ester to creatinine
Matthew W. Giese, a, and Carl S. Lechera

aDepartment of Chemistry, Marian University, 3200 Cold Spring Rd., Indianapolis, IN 46222, USA


Received 28 July 2009. Available online 4 August 2009.

Abstract

Creatine ethyl ester was incubated at 37 ?C in both water and phosphate-buffered saline and the diagnostic methylene resonances in the 1H NMR spectrum were used to identify the resultant products. It was found that mild aqueous conditions result in the cyclization of creatine ethyl ester to provide inactive creatinine as the exclusive product, and this transformation becomes nearly instantaneous as the pH approaches 7.4. This study demonstrates that mild non-enzymatic conditions are sufficient for the cyclization of creatine ethyl ester into creatinine, and together with previous results obtained under enzymatic conditions suggests that there are no physiological conditions that would result in the production of creatine. It is concluded that creatine ethyl ester is a pronutrient for creatinine rather than creatine under all physiological conditions encountered during transit through the various tissues, thus no ergogenic effect is to be expected from supplementation.

Romeo Foxtrot
09-15-09, 15:38
any opinion on the Nitric oxide Creatine supplements?

no shotgun is great for energy, focus, and a little pump. I would not buy it for its creatine.

Mjolnir
10-11-09, 19:26
What are the potential risks of using Creatine, though?

WillBrink
10-17-09, 09:50
What are the potential risks of using Creatine, though?

There don't appear to be any. Oddly, those who warn against using creatine (and I am not directing that comment at you...) ignore the fact (1) there's a bunch data showing creatine has potential benefits to health and (2) it's the most researched supplement in history, with both long term and short term studies finding exactly zero negative impact on health. If interested in the many potential health benefits of creatine, as well as other info (dose, etc), you can download my (free) report on creatine here:

www.Creatine-report.com

There's also a ton of creatine related articles on my web site.

Derek_Connor
10-17-09, 10:54
Will - if u dont mind, like to tap your brain.

For those who are doing the popular "cut body fat, maintain/attempt to increase lean mass", would you still recommend the use of creatine?

WillBrink
10-17-09, 11:33
Will - if u dont mind, like to tap your brain.

For those who are doing the popular "cut body fat, maintain/attempt to increase lean mass", would you still recommend the use of creatine?

That's a bit of an un charted territory in terms of the research. On paper, there's no reason to stop using creatine during a fat loss phase, but it's not an area that's been looked at as creatine is looked at as an anabolic supp. Real world suggests staying on creatine does not negatively impact fat loss (note I didnt say weight loss...) and should help preserve LBM too. Hope that helps.

Derek_Connor
10-17-09, 16:48
That's a bit of an un charted territory in terms of the research. On paper, there's no reason to stop using creatine during a fat loss phase, but it's not an area that's been looked at as creatine is looked at as an anabolic supp. Real world suggests staying on creatine does not negatively impact fat loss (note I didnt say weight loss...) and should help preserve LBM too. Hope that helps.


Understood, and it does help.

Thanks

WillBrink
10-17-09, 16:56
Understood, and it does help.

Thanks

Just make sure to use the good stuff:

What's In Your Creatine? (http://www.brinkzone.com/articles/whats-in-your-creatine/)

wilhelm
11-13-09, 10:40
I know I am coming into this late. I gained alot of simpathy weight when my wife got pregnant. My son was born July 21st and I weighed 215. I decided I had to get back to competition weight. I wondered the same thing about the creatine and going through a fat loss phase. I decided to give it a try and see what happened. This morning I weighed 176 and have been on my regular creatine schedule. I am far from an expert in anything but seems to me it does not hinder fat loss at all.

WillBrink
11-13-09, 11:05
I know I am coming into this late. I gained alot of simpathy weight when my wife got pregnant. My son was born July 21st and I weighed 215. I decided I had to get back to competition weight. I wondered the same thing about the creatine and going through a fat loss phase. I decided to give it a try and see what happened. This morning I weighed 176 and have been on my regular creatine schedule. I am far from an expert in anything but seems to me it does not hinder fat loss at all.

Good to know. In theory, it should be a net benefit for retaining muscle mass during a diet - is always important - but research is lacking in that area.

WillBrink
12-07-09, 13:05
I don't recall posting this. It's a follow up of sorts to the graveyard topics as it related to CEE:


CEE, The Poster Child For The “Graveyard”!
22 Oct || by Will Brink
Posted in Supplement Science
CEE Converts to Creatinine and Should be Avoided


Not long ago I wrote a blog called the “Creatine Graveyard” where I took a look at the various “high tech” forms of creatine (see list in the Graveyard blog) with a specific focus on Creatine Ethyl Ester (CEE) as a study had just been published putting CEE in a less than positive light.

The study found found CEE to be inferior to creatine monohydrate (CM) and so, CEE was dumped into he graveyard along with a bunch of others. No big shock to yours truly, additional research appears to confirm CEE is a poor choice for a replacement for CM, and now we have this latest study that finds CEE converts to creatinine (which has no ergogenic effects), which = people using CEE are throwing their hard earned $$$ away as far as I am concerned.

This study concludes “creatine ethyl ester is a pronutrient for creatinine rather than creatine under all physiological conditions encountered during transit through the various tissues, thus no ergogenic effect is to be expected from supplementation.”

In other words, as I’ve been saying for a long time now , stop wasting your money…


Below is the abstract for those interested in such things. It’s my advice at this time that people should avoid this supplement; at best it’s a waste of money, and at worst, will elevate creatinine levels which may be contraindicated for some populations.
Non-enzymatic cyclization of creatine ethyl ester to creatinine

Matthew W. Giese
Department of Chemistry,
Marian University,
3200 Cold Spring Rd.,
Indianapolis, IN 46222, USA

Received 28 July 2009.
Available online 4 August 2009.

Creatine ethyl ester was incubated at 37 °C in both water and phosphate-buffered saline and the diagnostic methylene resonances in the 1H NMR spectrum were used to identify the resultant products. It was found that mild aqueous conditions result in the cyclization of creatine ethyl ester to provide inactive creatinine as the exclusive product, and this transformation becomes nearly instantaneous as the pH approaches 7.4.

This study demonstrates that mild non-enzymatic conditions are sufficient for the cyclization of creatine ethyl ester into creatinine, and together with previous results obtained under enzymatic conditions suggests that there are no physiological conditions that would result in the production of creatine.

It is concluded that creatine ethyl ester is a pronutrient for creatinine rather than creatine under all physiological conditions encountered during transit through the various tissues, thus no ergogenic effect is to be expected from supplementation.

Source BrinkZone Blog (http://www.brinkzone.com/supplement-science/cee-the-poster-child-for-the-graveyard/)

Safetyhit
06-19-13, 14:12
I own two gyms and have been lifting and training in Kenpo for years and have seen my fair share of quasi-juicers that rely too much on their products and not enough on sheer effort and the willingness to endure pain to reach their goals.

Not sure how I stumbled on this old thread to be honest but not only is this information still relevant, the above is exceptionally true.