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Zhukov
03-16-09, 11:40
I'm having a long drawn out argument with someone who is obviously a fanboy of this cartridge. The arguments on his side have devolved into speculating about when bullet technology might catch up with the awesomeness of the 5.7x28 so that the whole thing becomes useful.

Why are people so desperate about this kind of stuff? They take anything counter to what they believe and make it personal. I encounter the same thing with people defending the HydraShok. No matter how much evidence you provide otherwise, they "feel" like it's a good round and just shut down. I don't care if you "feel" 5.7x28 would be great, the facts are that it's NOT.

Sorry for the rant.

rob_s
03-16-09, 11:47
Funny, I just wrote this on another forum a few minutes ago


People don't want to be told they bought something and wasted their money, and like it even less when they also find out that the impetus for the purchase was based on non-facts that they believed due to ignorance.

Similarly, most people that make up their minds that a thing is a waste of money, and so publicly state, will almost never revise this opinion regardless of how much fact they are confronted with.

vicious_cb
03-16-09, 23:40
WHAT!? Are you joking? The 5.7 is the greatest round ever.








































For shooting squirrels :D

Cameron
03-16-09, 23:56
It is really very simply, people emotionally invest in their decisions. They decide to buy "X" and before or after the purchase they emotionally invest in the decision, reason goes bye bye...

I have done it before, but I find the more I rationally THINK about my decisions the better I am able to REASON though the alternatives and make a GOOD decision...

When the decisions are about guns and such, it really doesn't matter that much... what's the real difference between a 5.7 and a 6mm plastic airsoft BB?

Just the price.

ToddG
03-17-09, 13:39
WHAT!? Are you joking? The 5.7 is the greatest round ever.

http://entimg.msn.com/i/ap/11172005/nyet10011172156.jpeg
FOR ME TO POOP ON!

Dave L.
03-17-09, 16:38
I bought a PS90 for FUN, and it's every bit of $1,500 fun. However, if I had the choice, it wouldn't be my first in a gun fight.

It will never replace an AR/AK...or a G19:eek:

PRGGodfather
03-17-09, 16:56
People rarely let the facts change the way they feel.

Marcus L.
03-17-09, 18:23
With the way things are going with ammunition and firearms and the new administration, I think most of us will be buying less toys and going for the practical weapons and calibers.

Beat Trash
03-17-09, 18:50
With the way things are going with ammunition and firearms and the new administration, I think most of us will be buying less toys and going for the practical weapons and calibers.

Started that route a few years ago. Although the 5.7x28 is supposed to be on the "Must have" list for Mexican cartels, due to the alleged soft armor penetration abilities..

WS6
03-23-09, 13:33
I still don't see why everyone harps on the little round. It is a good round. Getting almost 3,000fps and 50 rounds in a short, compact carbine, is pretty impressive. 2600fps from a pistol is awesome. Yes this is a 28gr round, but you can bet it will still do some damage. Would I rather have it than a 5.56? Only if the 5.56 was an SBR.

I think the main issue is that people are trying to put the 5.7 in situations it wasn't designed for. It wasn't MEANT to go through windshields. It was meant to go through body armor like cheese cloth and get the deed done from a FA SBR type weapon that was ultra-relaible and very portable. It does that in spades. Yeah, it sucks that us civvies have a hard time getting an FA/SBR'ed P90, but the PS90 is still pretty compact and full-auto is as much a liability as it as (arguably) an asset.

I think that it does what it was meant to do if you use the right ammo. I am surely not going to say it is the ultimate SD round, but I am also loath to dismiss it as ineffective when it mirrors the .223 in so many ways.

Marcus L.
03-23-09, 15:02
Vehicle penetration of substances such as windshields is a very important attribute of a firearm now days. Whether you're dealing with Mexican drug cartels, Iraqi insurgents, domestic organized crime, or just the occasional dirtbag that want to shoot at you......vehicles will be the most common barrier you will encounter anywhere in the world today.

The 5.7mm and the H&K 4.6mm obviously do poorly against windshields, but they also make relatively small wound channels in comparison to other alternatives. Dr. Martin Fackler modeled the wound profiles of both and in testing, neither round could produce a wound volume that could beat out a standard 9mm NATO FMJ. Fragmenting bullets in these PDW cartridges do not have the enough mass or velocity to produce the necessary momentum to carry the fragmenting projectile to acceptible penetration depths and the temporary cavity effects are minimal. Expanding bullets in these PDW cartridges still do not reach a recovered diameter greater than that of a 9mm NATO FMJ, and their temporary cavity stretches are also very minimal. Based on wound generation, which is Facklers expertise, he's said that the weapons using the 5.7mm and 4.6mm are more likely to get officers killed due to their lack of quick incapacitation ability on dangerous opponents. Several PD SWAT units that have used the FN P90 have said that it requires a generous burst in order to achieve desirable stopping effects unlike the M4 or even the MP-5. German units in Afghanistan have has mixed results with theirs too. Once again, they require a higher degree of shot precision and a higher volume of fire to get the job done.

The Russians were a lot smarter when it comes to small armor piercing weapon systems. They simply beefed up the 9mm to fire +P+ penetrators which can pretty much do anything the 5.7mm and 4.6mm can to at ranges up to 100yrds and it generates a larger wound channel.

variablebinary
03-23-09, 15:07
I'm having a long drawn out argument with someone who is obviously a fanboy of this cartridge. The arguments on his side have devolved into speculating about when bullet technology might catch up with the awesomeness of the 5.7x28 so that the whole thing becomes useful.

Why are people so desperate about this kind of stuff? They take anything counter to what they believe and make it personal. I encounter the same thing with people defending the HydraShok. No matter how much evidence you provide otherwise, they "feel" like it's a good round and just shut down. I don't care if you "feel" 5.7x28 would be great, the facts are that it's NOT.

Sorry for the rant.

Why do you feel the need to be right and bait people who obviously see value in the 5.7 round. Dont you think that is irritating?

Name a couple of gun products you own, and I promise there are a few people on this forum who would love to tell you your cash was wasted and you should have gotten something else.

I personally dont own any 5.7 products. But I can see the appeal from my time spent with MadDogs 5.7 upper with a suppressor. It's fun, and unique.

Zhukov
03-23-09, 20:45
I still don't see why everyone harps on the little round. It is a good round. Getting almost 3,000fps and 50 rounds in a short, compact carbine, is pretty impressive. 2600fps from a pistol is awesome. Yes this is a 28gr round, but you can bet it will still do some damage. Would I rather have it than a 5.56? Only if the 5.56 was an SBR.

I think the main issue is that people are trying to put the 5.7 in situations it wasn't designed for. It wasn't MEANT to go through windshields. It was meant to go through body armor like cheese cloth and get the deed done from a FA SBR type weapon that was ultra-relaible and very portable. It does that in spades. Yeah, it sucks that us civvies have a hard time getting an FA/SBR'ed P90, but the PS90 is still pretty compact and full-auto is as much a liability as it as (arguably) an asset.

I think that it does what it was meant to do if you use the right ammo. I am surely not going to say it is the ultimate SD round, but I am also loath to dismiss it as ineffective when it mirrors the .223 in so many ways.

There are many issues with your line of thinking. Let me start by saying that in full-auto, a gun like the PS90 could be pretty effective for certain applications. I can't even think of many of those - you already mentioned that it doesn't penetrate windshields well, so what good is it even for a LEO who can be expected to routinely engage vehicles? That being said, it's a moot point for us mortals who can't own post-86 FA guns.

Reading all the stickies in this forum, you should know that worshipping at the altar of high velocity if a fallacy. You can keep jacking bullet weight down to increase the velocity, but all you'll do is end up with a bullet that either fragments severaly and thus horribly underpenetrates, or a non-fragmenting FMJ that may penetrate sufficiently but has a very unimpressive permanent cavity. Unless the 5.7x28 has the ability to redefine the laws of physics, it's stuck with inferior performance.

5.56 SBRs are problem for the same reason - insufficient muzzle velocity and subsequently reduced terminal performance.

Zhukov
03-23-09, 20:52
Why do you feel the need to be right and bait people who obviously see value in the 5.7 round. Dont you think that is irritating?

Name a couple of gun products you own, and I promise there are a few people on this forum who would love to tell you your cash was wasted and you should have gotten something else.

I personally dont own any 5.7 products. But I can see the appeal from my time spent with MadDogs 5.7 upper with a suppressor. It's fun, and unique.

Whether a gun is fun or unique is irrelevant. The argument specifically concerned the terminal performance of 5.7x28, and it doesn't deliver - as specifically pointed out by DocGKR's sticky in this forum. If the argument was merely about the "fun" aspect of shooting 5.7x28 I wouldn't have said anything; baiting had nothing to do with it.

Jim from Houston
03-23-09, 23:39
Agree with Zhukov...this is the Terminal Ballistics forum, not the "fun guns to shoot" forum...on the Terminal Ballistics forum, there's nothing positive to be said about the 5.7

Quite frankly, I've never much seen the point of any of these tiny-caliber PDW weapons (no one has yet been able to explain to me what sort of performance advantage they offer over an MP5K loaded with 9mm AP rounds like the Nammo BNT HP7).

However, IF for some reason the PDW's really float your boat, the 5.7 still ain't too hot...the HK 4.6x30 cartridge has far superior terminal ballistics to the 5.7 in the tests that I'm aware of - of course, arguing about the terminal ballistics of PDW rounds is a bit like the proverbial "privates arguing about rank".

The whole point of the PDW concept is the ability to pierce soft body armor...for civilians who don't have access to the armor piercing rounds that are intended for use in these PDWs, then really what is the point?

If people like plinking with it, fine...who said any different? But this forum is about terminal ballistics...and the 5.7's are a disaster.

If people still want to talk PDWs, the KAC PDW with the 6x35mm round...now THAT is interesting.

WS6
03-24-09, 00:51
There are many issues with your line of thinking. Let me start by saying that in full-auto, a gun like the PS90 could be pretty effective for certain applications. I can't even think of many of those - you already mentioned that it doesn't penetrate windshields well, so what good is it even for a LEO who can be expected to routinely engage vehicles? That being said, it's a moot point for us mortals who can't own post-86 FA guns.

Reading all the stickies in this forum, you should know that worshipping at the altar of high velocity if a fallacy. You can keep jacking bullet weight down to increase the velocity, but all you'll do is end up with a bullet that either fragments severaly and thus horribly underpenetrates, or a non-fragmenting FMJ that may penetrate sufficiently but has a very unimpressive permanent cavity. Unless the 5.7x28 has the ability to redefine the laws of physics, it's stuck with inferior performance.

5.56 SBRs are problem for the same reason - insufficient muzzle velocity and subsequently reduced terminal performance.

I agree with all of your assessments assuming factory ammo. With factory ammo, this thing is dismal. However...

Think about a 55gr TBBC at about 2300fps Those expand reliably down to around 18-1900fps. Would do great through glass. You can tailor the load to anything you want. No it is not going to replace the 5.56 carbine, but I still don't think its as bad as everyone makes it out to be. As far as going through a vest, there are loads out there for it that are far superior to anything commercially available in the 5.56 world except for M995 or possibly SSA's offering.

Jim from Houston
03-24-09, 02:11
As far as going through a vest, there are loads out there for it that are far superior to anything commercially available in the 5.56 world except for M995 or possibly SSA's offering.

Would you mind clarifying what you mean by this? On the face of it, this statement does not make any sense to me...all commonly encountered 5.56/.223 rounds will zip through soft body armor like it was a sheet of paper...and M855/SS109 rounds will penetrate certain types of level III hard armor rifle plates (watch out for the polyethylene and steel ones).

Bringing the M995 round into the discussion goes to an entirely different level...that's a round that will penetrate Level IV hard armor plates...

In other words, I just don't understand your statement...PDW cartridges such as the 5.7 were designed to deal with the problem of pistol bullets having difficulty with soft body armor...the 5.56/.223 has never had such a problem...

WS6
03-24-09, 04:07
Would you mind clarifying what you mean by this? On the face of it, this statement does not make any sense to me...all commonly encountered 5.56/.223 rounds will zip through soft body armor like it was a sheet of paper...and M855/SS109 rounds will penetrate certain types of level III hard armor rifle plates (watch out for the polyethylene and steel ones).

Bringing the M995 round into the discussion goes to an entirely different level...that's a round that will penetrate Level IV hard armor plates...

In other words, I just don't understand your statement...PDW cartridges such as the 5.7 were designed to deal with the problem of pistol bullets having difficulty with soft body armor...the 5.56/.223 has never had such a problem...

M855 only has a small mild-steel 10.5gr core. It is not very effective as the core will slip/shed the jacket and lead base, and continue minimally after penetrating 1 homogenous barrier. This is why M855 sucks on windshields according to gel junkies as well as some of the people who have used it across the pond. Vests, not a problem. Car-doors and windshields, that is why everyone likes the TBBC rounds. 5.56 is just as inadequate as 5.7 without the correct loads when used on glass,ect.

Zhukov
03-24-09, 11:16
I agree with all of your assessments assuming factory ammo. With factory ammo, this thing is dismal. However...

Think about a 55gr TBBC at about 2300fps Those expand reliably down to around 18-1900fps. Would do great through glass. You can tailor the load to anything you want. No it is not going to replace the 5.56 carbine, but I still don't think its as bad as everyone makes it out to be. As far as going through a vest, there are loads out there for it that are far superior to anything commercially available in the 5.56 world except for M995 or possibly SSA's offering.

See - this is the exact issue I had brought up in my original post. I agree that a 55gr TBBC at 2300fps would be a good thing, but do you really get that out of 5.7x28 or is that a "if only at some point in the future" kind of deal? And is that within the SAAMI spec, or is that running pressures close to destroying the brass and gun?

You can get those velocities with a AR carbine already without doing anything crazy to the load and staying well within spec. The low recoil advantage of a 5.7x28 goes out the window with the 2300fps load as well; heck, it'll probably have more recoil based on the gun being lighter (I assume the PS90 would be lighter than an AR).

Puffy93
03-24-09, 14:43
Better than 5.56 for pistol and SBR(especialy the Five-seveN pistol) not so much for rifle length or even longer SBR barrels

It is a bad-ass round for the Five-seveN

WS6
03-24-09, 14:55
See - this is the exact issue I had brought up in my original post. I agree that a 55gr TBBC at 2300fps would be a good thing, but do you really get that out of 5.7x28 or is that a "if only at some point in the future" kind of deal? And is that within the SAAMI spec, or is that running pressures close to destroying the brass and gun?

You can get those velocities with a AR carbine already without doing anything crazy to the load and staying well within spec. The low recoil advantage of a 5.7x28 goes out the window with the 2300fps load as well; heck, it'll probably have more recoil based on the gun being lighter (I assume the PS90 would be lighter than an AR).

2300fps out of a 16" PS90 barrel with 55gr ammo is old news. It is sold commercially if you want it. Not in TBBC, but in FMJ, however, I don't see why you couldnt run up a load using TBBC or call the company and have them do it for you. They are known to make some interesting rounds. As far as I know the brass and gun are fine. The company selling it is very reputable, fully insured, has no problems/complaints I am aware of, and possesses a huge support-base of happy customers.

Yes you lose your "low recoil" somewhat but you still have 50 rounds in a mag and a very compact weapon that is now capable of punching through autos very nicely. You can't have EVERYTHING ya know. The question wasn't about recoil but terminal effectiveness. The 5.7 isn't going to kill an elephant with a shot to the rump, but it's not the pip-squeek everyone likes to talk about it being any more than the 5.56 is just because the 7.62 guys like to down it. THey all have their purpose, and they all serve it wonderfully. You would not use a 5.7 for a 200 yard shot, and you would not use a 5.56 for a 800 yard shot. Not unless you had no choice. The right tool, for the right job.

I do not own a 5.7 so I really have no emotional attatchment or investment to defend. I simply was interested in it at one time, and listened to both sides of the argument. In the end, I concluded that both sides had exaggerated their views a tad and the truth lay somewhere in the middle.

Molon
03-24-09, 18:02
Originally posted by WS6:

Think about a 55gr TBBC at about 2300fps.



Originally posted by WS6:

2300fps out of a 16" PS90 barrel with 55gr ammo is old news.It is sold commercially if you want it. Not in TBBC, but in FMJ . . .

So in other words, you’re basing your argument on a load that doesn’t even exist, let alone has been tested to see how it actually performs.:( Not to mention that the 16" barreled PS90 is a complete abortion of the original concept of the P90 being a "compact" firearm. The 55 grain TBBC actually exists in a 223 Remington load and out of a 16" barreled AR-15 runs 500 fps faster than your fantasy load.

TiroFijo
03-24-09, 18:54
So in other words, you’re basing your argument on a load that doesn’t even exist, let alone has been tested to see how it actually performs.:(

...not only that :rolleyes: , but also out of a 16" barrel, that IMO defeats the "compact" appeal of a PDW.

Marcus L.
03-24-09, 19:14
Even if such a load did exist, its effects would be weak in comparison to a 5.56 carbine and its safety threshold would be borderline dangerous. If it takes a dangerous loading from a full rifle length barrel to make the 5.7mm somewhat viable, then it is a very poor choice from a combat/defensive PDW/pistol cartridge. A large safety threshold is needed in any cartridge considered for serious defensive use as peak pressures can change from a number of factors. When a cartridge gets heated up from being in a vehicle in the summer time, or when it stays chambered in a hot barrel the peak pressure of the load increases. Commercial/military manufacturers take such issues into account when they determine the safe operating pressure ammunition. One thing many handloaders don't take into account is environmental pressures that may make their hot loads quite dangerous to the shooter. The net is full of handloaded KBs from experienced loaders who have ignored this margin of safety.

Anyhow, greatness needs no spokesman. The 5.7mm has been in service around the world since the early 1990s and its actual combat performance with military and LE units has been mediocre. Comparing a 5.7mm loading of 55gr at 2300fps out of a 16" barrel to a 5.56 and calling it equal, is like loading a .380acp with a 105gr bullet at 1000fps and calling it a 9mm.

Molon
03-24-09, 19:53
Originally posted by WS6:

2300fps out of a 16" PS90 barrel with 55gr ammo is old news. It is sold commercially if you want it. Not in TBBC, but in FMJ, however, I don't see why you couldnt run up a load using TBBC or call the company and have them do it for you.

The above statement is ignorant conjecture with no data to support it. The Trophy Bonded Bear Claws have longer bearing surfaces than FMJ bullets of the same weight. A bullet with a longer bearing surface generally cannot safely be loaded to the same maximum charge as a bullet of the same weight with a shorter bearing surface do to the increase in pressure caused by the longer bearing surface.

Also, Speer’s own data states that the “Trophy Bonded Bear Claw . . . bullets have unique ballistic behavior compared to conventional bullets. Loads for TBBC . . . bullets may not “track” with data for conventional bullets.”

As an example, the Speer Reloading Manual lists a maximum charge of 26.0 grains of AA 2230 for the Speer 55 grain FMJ for a velocity of 3233 fps. The maximum charge of AA 2230 for the 55 grain TBBC is only 24.0 grains for a velocity of 3077 fps. That’s 156 fps less for the TBBC.

WS6
03-24-09, 20:22
The above statement is ignorant conjecture with no data to support it. The Trophy Bonded Bear Claws have longer bearing surfaces than FMJ bullets of the same weight. A bullet with a longer bearing surface generally cannot safely be loaded to the same maximum charge as a bullet of the same weight with a shorter bearing surface do to the increase in pressure caused by the longer bearing surface.

Also, Speer’s own data states that the “Trophy Bonded Bear Claw . . . bullets have unique ballistic behavior compared to conventional bullets. Loads for TBBC . . . bullets may not “track” with data for conventional bullets.”

As an example, the Speer Reloading Manual lists a maximum charge of 26.0 grains of AA 2230 for the Speer 55 grain FMJ for a velocity of 3233 fps. The maximum charge of AA 2230 for the 55 grain TBBC is only 24.0 grains for a velocity of 3077 fps. That’s 156 fps less for the TBBC.

Obviously you are more up-to-date on your information of the TBBC. I was incorrect in light of that. No, that load does not exist, and based on your information WILL NOT exist.

Also, I say use the thing for what it was meant. With better than factory ammo, it does better than the poor round everyone says it is. I feel that it does have it's place.

On another note, one could load the 53gr DPX, no? I would think the reduced bearing area would make this a good choice, but again am no expert.

I still feel that any round that fragments violently and penetrates to 10"+ is doing the exact same thing as the 60gr .223 TAP. The 40gr VMAX at 2400fps from a 5.7 pistol does just this (and exists). From an P90 I would bet it does 2500+ish. Really not that bad if you aren't going through cars with hit. No it isn't as powerful as a .223, but it does the job in a compact, hi-capacity platform.

WS6
03-24-09, 20:25
Even if such a load did exist, its effects would be weak in comparison to a 5.56 carbine and its safety threshold would be borderline dangerous. If it takes a dangerous loading from a full rifle length barrel to make the 5.7mm somewhat viable, then it is a very poor choice from a combat/defensive PDW/pistol cartridge. A large safety threshold is needed in any cartridge considered for serious defensive use as peak pressures can change from a number of factors. When a cartridge gets heated up from being in a vehicle in the summer time, or when it stays chambered in a hot barrel the peak pressure of the load increases. Commercial/military manufacturers take such issues into account when they determine the safe operating pressure ammunition. One thing many handloaders don't take into account is environmental pressures that may make their hot loads quite dangerous to the shooter. The net is full of handloaded KBs from experienced loaders who have ignored this margin of safety.

Anyhow, greatness needs no spokesman. The 5.7mm has been in service around the world since the early 1990s and its actual combat performance with military and LE units has been mediocre. Comparing a 5.7mm loading of 55gr at 2300fps out of a 16" barrel to a 5.56 and calling it equal, is like loading a .380acp with a 105gr bullet at 1000fps and calling it a 9mm.


It seems that the 5.7 and .223 again have something in common. There is a never-ending search to make them more viable combat loads due to the same failures with barriers and supposedly rapid incapacitation.

Also, 5.7 ammo used and 5.56 ammo used by these groups is obviously not cream of the crop. M855 and SS190 are both sub-standard performers in their respective calibers.

WS6
03-24-09, 20:26
...not only that :rolleyes: , but also out of a 16" barrel, that IMO defeats the "compact" appeal of a PDW.Compare the PS90 to an SBR'ed AR for length.

kal
03-25-09, 02:30
Why is there an argument being made for the P90's capacity when compared to a 5.56mm platform, when there are or is possible to produce a 45-50 round magazine for 5.56mm?

The argument in favor of the P90's capacity becomes moot.

WS6
03-25-09, 07:03
Why is there an argument being made for the P90's capacity when compared to a 5.56mm platform, when there are or is possible to produce a 45-50 round magazine for 5.56mm?

The argument in favor of the P90's capacity becomes moot.

Who makes this 45-50 round reliable magazine?

Molon
03-27-09, 16:21
Originally posted by WS6:

Compare the PS90 to an SBR'ed AR for length.


Apples to oranges. The PS90 is a bull-pup design. If you want to make comparisons in over-all length, you need to compare it to a 5.56mm platform of bull-pup design.

The Steyr AUG, MSAR STG-556 and TPD AXR are bull-pup designs available with approximately 16” barrels and have over-all lengths of approximately 28”.

Molon
03-27-09, 16:29
Originally posted by WS6:

On another note, one could load the 53gr DPX, no?


This is your argument? Shifting from one nonexistent load to another nonexistent load? If you’re going to take a position, try coming up with some tangible data to support it.



Originally posted by WS6:

I still feel that any round that fragments violently and penetrates to 10"+ is doing the exact same thing as the 60gr .223 TAP. The 40gr VMAX at 2400fps from a 5.7 pistol does just this (and exists).


Total nonsense. There isn’t a single reputable ammunition manufacturer on the planet that safely loads the 40 grain V-MAX to a velocity of 2400 fps from the FN Five-seveN pistol. FN’s own data reports that their load using the 40 grain V-MAX (SS197) only has a velocity of 1675 fps when fired from the Five-seveN pistol. Multiple sources have confirmed through independent chronograph testing that the SS197 load does run right around the stated velocity from the Five-seveN pistol.

There is absolutely no possible way that you have a 40 grain V-MAX load that runs 725 fps faster than the factory load without going well beyond the SAAMI maximum average pressure of 50,038 PSI for the 5.7 X 28mm cartridge. Estimates from QuickLoad calculations show that in order to reach your mythical 2400 fps from the Five-seveN with a 40 grain V-MAX, you would need upwards of 27,000 PSI additional pressure above the safe limit.

Even if, you could push the 40 grain V-MAX to 2400 fps from the Five-seveN pistol, it’s not going to perform as you stated it would. If you seriously think that a 40 grain V-MAX (which has one-third less weight than the 60 grain V-MAX and runs at a far slower velocity than the 60 grain V-MAX fired from a 223/5.56mm platform) will “fragment violently and penetrate” the same as the 60 grain V-MAX load, you have a very poor understanding of terminal ballistics.

While some rounds, such as 223/5.56 non-fragmenting barrier loads can penetrate deeper at slower velocities, the 40-grain V-MAX is not such a round. It is a polycarbonate tipped, hollow-point varmint round. It has such a low weight for it’s caliber that it has very poor penetration properties. Due to its low weight/low momentum, at velocities below 3300 fps the slower the round travels the less it penetrates.

The 40 grain V-MAX with a velocity of 3295 fps fired from a 14.5” barrel has a penetration depth in bare ballistic gelatin of 5.85”. When fired from an 11.5” barrel with a velocity of 3090 fps, it has a penetration depth of 5.00”. Fired from an 8.4” barrel with a velocity of 2675 fps the 40 grain V-MAX only has a penetration depth of 4.60” in bare gelatin. As you can plainly see, the 40 grain V-MAX penetrates less and less as the velocity drops. Your mythical load running at 2400 fps (275 fps slower than the last load listed above) is absolutely not going to “fragment violently and penetrate” a magical 5.4” more than the last load listed above.

Alaskapopo
03-27-09, 17:46
Who makes this 45-50 round reliable magazine?
Lancer and Nordic. I have both and both work fine. 47 rounds for the Nordic P Mag and 48 in the Lancers.
I use them for three gun.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Magazines/highcapmags.jpg

Lancer is Clear. The Two P Mags with the Nordic extension and the Bulgarian 35 rounders. All work well.
Pat

Marcus L.
03-27-09, 18:23
You've also got the beta mags and other 100rd drums for the AR.

Alaskapopo
03-27-09, 18:40
You've also got the beta mags and other 100rd drums for the AR.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Magazines/Competitionmags.jpg

WS6
03-27-09, 18:56
You've also got the beta mags and other 100rd drums for the AR.

As I recall, those got a few good men killed in their time.

As to people saying that the 40gr VMAX round cannot be pushed at 2400fps from a pistol...well. I mis-spoke, I read the information incorrectly in my haste. It clocks 2400fps from the P90 and 2080fps from the 5.7 pistol. My mistake. FN's load is under-powered for the platform.

Regaurding moving from one "mythical" load to another...why does it have to be mythical? Buy some reloading equipment and make it. Until recently (CORBON) the DPX load was "myth" in .223 as well.

I suppose photo-evidnce of some gelatin hit with this round is in order. Sadly, I do not have the picture I thought I did. In it's stead, and to prove my point that at lower velocities, .224 diameter bullets perform markedly different, here is the result of a 36gr Barnes Varmint Grenade. You cannot compare the same bullet in a .223 case and assume it will perform the same. (FYI, the 36gr Barnes VG clocks in at roughly 2100fps from the 5.7 pistol).

All this special "technology" has finally caught up with the 5.7. There are powders which can push the velocity without the over-pressure. The results in gelatin and across the chronograph speak for themselves. Numbers don't lie. (Still can't get 2400fps out of the 40gr VMAX/pistol combo, the ceiling is a hair under 2100fps from the 5.7 pistol. I completely mis-typed that one.)

When a 28gr jhp is pushed at 2600fps from the 5.7 pistol though, it does tend to blow up like Molon described. No, I did not mis-quote that velocity. Yes that round exists. Yes you may purchase it today if you want. Yes it is made by a licensed manufacturer, not some guy in his woodshed.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2uohrua.jpg
36gr Barnes VG from a 5.7x28

Fail-Safe
03-27-09, 19:00
Is it just me, or is the original PDW still the best? By that I mean the M-1 and M-2 Carbines. Both are short, shorter with a paratrooper folding stock, even moreso with a "BQ" modification. The .30Carbine can absolutely defeat certain types of armor, and still offers better RW and RD than 5.7x28.

Alaskapopo
03-27-09, 19:08
Is it just me, or is the original PDW still the best? By that I mean the M-1 and M-2 Carbines. Both are short, shorter with a paratrooper folding stock, even moreso with a "BQ" modification. The .30Carbine can absolutely defeat certain types of armor, and still offers better RW and RD than 5.7x28.
I am not impressed with the M1 or M2 either. They basically fire a pistol round. My dad served in Korea and saw a lot of failures of that round to put people down. The simple fact is we will never replace pistols with long guns. That is what the M1 attempted to do.
Pat

Fail-Safe
03-27-09, 19:09
Regaurding moving from one "mythical" load to another...why does it have to be mythical? Buy some reloading equipment and make it. Until recently (CORBON) the DPX load was "myth" in .223 as well.



You fail to understand that one is, and one isnt a "mythical" load. One is made by a company, the other is not. You want someone to sink an assload of cash on loading equipment for a load that doesnt exist in a cookbook, and thats performance can only , at this point b, be speculated about. Its absurd.

As for your gel shot, wow lookie there, a fragment got 12 inches of penetration! The Winchester 55gr Silvertip does the same, yet it isnt reccomended.

Fail-Safe
03-27-09, 19:12
I am not impressed with the M1 or M2 either. They basically fire a pistol round. My dad served in Korea and saw a lot of failures of that round to put people down. The simple fact is we will never replace pistols with long guns. That is what the M1 attempted to do.
Pat

Daddy saw fallacy again. My grandfather used an M1Carbine in the Pacific Theatre of Operations, and had no issue with it. He liked them enough to purchase several later on in life.

While the FMJ doesnt have the best rep, if placed correctly, it will still take care of business. With that said, lets say something like the Remington 110gr JSP is used.

WS6
03-27-09, 19:37
You fail to understand that one is, and one isnt a "mythical" load. One is made by a company, the other is not. You want someone to sink an assload of cash on loading equipment for a load that doesnt exist in a cookbook, and thats performance can only , at this point b, be speculated about. Its absurd.

As for your gel shot, wow lookie there, a fragment got 12 inches of penetration! The Winchester 55gr Silvertip does the same, yet it isnt reccomended.




...can someone tell me what this round fired from an AR-57 is?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrhfM_CJKZc&feature=player_embedded

Also, Here is some data and video footage of the 40gr VMAX round going clean through a 13" block with 3.3" cavity measured at the widest spot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JuvKWckwg8&feature=player_embedded
Looks like more than "A little fragment" he pulled out from behind there to me...

The round on the right passed through a lvlII vest before hitting the block. The round that left the tract all the way through the block was a bare-gelatin shot. Again, this was a 40gr VMAX at @2050-2100 fps from a 5.7 pistol. Available for anyone who wants it and can legally own this ammunition in their state.
http://i42.tinypic.com/26201zp.jpg

Again let me clarify that I don't consider myself a "fan-boy" of this round and do not own any investment in it. However, I just get tired of all the mis-information about it's capabilites (or presumed lack thereof) floating around out there. That and I love a good logical debate!

sinister
03-27-09, 20:33
The United States Secret Service Uniform Division / White House Emergency Response Team is armed with the FN 5.7 carbine.

The USSS put TONS of research into their armament before they purchase.

http://cryptome.info/usss-hands/pict75.jpg

http://media.bonnint.net/apimage/37591cf6-1b59-4b2f-8e58-cf868245c3e5.jpg

Fail-Safe
03-27-09, 22:14
The United States Secret Service Uniform Division / White House Emergency Response Team is armed with the FN 5.7 carbine.

The USSS put TONS of research into their armament before they purchase.



Uh-huh, and how many rounds have they had to actually use? Just because USSS chooses something, that doesnt make it best.

It seems there is a certain municipality in Florida that has had the most shootings with the P90, they arent impressed.

ToddG
03-27-09, 22:24
The United States Secret Service Uniform Division / White House Emergency Response Team is armed with the FN 5.7 carbine.

The USSS put TONS of research into their armament before they purchase.

The P90 serves exactly the purpose for which is was chosen by USSS. For most folks, that particular combination of capabilities is not necessary.

Fail-Safe
03-27-09, 22:33
...can someone tell me what this round fired from an AR-57 is?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrhfM_CJKZc&feature=player_embedded


Its a DPX, obviously. Its also footage from the maker of the round, so there is NO bias, oh no. Then guess what, they dont even offer it on their online store!



Also, Here is some data and video footage of the 40gr VMAX round going clean through a 13" block with 3.3" cavity measured at the widest spot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JuvKWckwg8&feature=player_embedded
Looks like more than "A little fragment" he pulled out from behind there to me...

Actually thats all it looks like, a small fragment. Perhaps 1-15grs in weight.



The round on the right passed through a lvlII vest before hitting the block. The round that left the tract all the way through the block was a bare-gelatin shot. Again, this was a 40gr VMAX at @2050-2100 fps from a 5.7 pistol. Available for anyone who wants it and can legally own this ammunition in their state.
http://i42.tinypic.com/26201zp.jpg

A Level 2 vest? Who cares? .30Carbine can penetrate Level 3.



Again let me clarify that I don't consider myself a "fan-boy" of this round and do not own any investment in it. However, I just get tired of all the mis-information about it's capabilites (or presumed lack thereof) floating around out there. That and I love a good logical debate!

Do you include this misinformation you have posted in this thread? Links to a videos put on by Elite Ammunition who claim they sell ammo to "SpecOps" here in the US? Read the 5.7x28 sticky in this forum containing information by Dr Roberts. Is that also mis-information?

WS6
03-27-09, 22:46
Its a DPX, obviously. Its also footage from the maker of the round, so there is NO bias, oh no. Then guess what, they dont even offer it on their online store!



Actually thats all it looks like, a small fragment. Perhaps 1-15grs in weight.



A Level 2 vest? Who cares? .30Carbine can penetrate Level 3.



Do you include this misinformation you have posted in this thread? Links to a videos put on by Elite Ammunition who claim they sell ammo to "SpecOps" here in the US? Read the 5.7x28 sticky in this forum containing information by Dr Roberts. Is that also mis-information?


I have no idea who or who does not buy from Elite Ammunition. I do know un-biased people have run their ammunition through chronographs and it checks out.

As to the lvl II vest, their VMAX round is not their vest-penetrating round, as it were. From what I have seen, you would be suprised what their penetration oriented ammunition is capable of.

Okay, if that is a 1-15gr piece of projectile, then why do I not see the other 25gr of it littering the tract through the gel? In other pictures, I could see a small snow-storm of maybe 5-10gr in the entry, but it consisted of the top and a bit of lead/copper mainly.

If you want some of the DPX stuff just call them. I am sure they will be happy to load it for you, no I have not called and asked for it, so I can't SWEAR to that.

Dr. Roberts is a bright guy and has his own fact-based opinions. There are other bright guys with fact-based opinions as well. Pick a camp on a topic and pitch your tint. I have pitched my tint in the "5.7 is a decent round for what it is intended camp."

Any way you slice it, 13"+ of penetration with over 3" cavity is not bad. Far from "anemic" or ".22 magnum-esque", and that is my entire point. Not that the 5.7 is the next 5.56, but that it isn' far from it in SOME performance aspects.

Alaskapopo
03-28-09, 03:27
Daddy saw fallacy again. My grandfather used an M1Carbine in the Pacific Theatre of Operations, and had no issue with it. He liked them enough to purchase several later on in life.

While the FMJ doesnt have the best rep, if placed correctly, it will still take care of business. With that said, lets say something like the Remington 110gr JSP is used.

An ice pick if place properly will take care of business but I don't recommend it as a self defense tool. The .30 carbine with expanding ammo is comparable to a good service pistol round. It does not come close to the performance offered by a good 5.56 load. Also my dad did not see fallacy he saw that little round for what it is useless.
Pat

Matt P
03-28-09, 17:17
What a thread to jump in and post my first comment... Oh well, here goes..

I carry the 5.7 pistol just about every day as my CCW pistol. So, I believe in it.
My reasons for carrying it have everything to do with light recoil/great controllability/great recovery.
The pistol is more like a single action trigger then a double.
20rds in the magazine is impressive, as is its incredible light weight in a full sized handgun.
Im putting all my faith in this pistol to help me deliver accuracy.
I have all the other popular cals in a defensive handgun, I just prefer to arm myself with a weapon I believe will allow me to be accurate, and have fast recovery between shots.
Cant we all agree on that accuracy with whatever weapon you choose gives you the best chance of stopping a threat?

I just didnt see anything in this thread about the 5.7s excellent accuracy and very light recoil with the handgun and all things considered with the shooter doing his part.

There must be some merit in this with the cartridge along with its magazine capacity and excellent trigger.

I would agree that many seem to try and sell others on the cartidge alone, and frequently leave out the fact of its light recoil and fast recovery.

For me its the best. Since I am not dependant on those who think it sucks, to help me defend myself, or for me to defend them, I continue to carry it.

Great Forum here guys.. A wealth of excellent information.

John_Wayne777
03-28-09, 17:36
Cant we all agree on that accuracy with whatever weapon you choose gives you the best chance of stopping a threat?


Accuracy is certainly critical...but once you launch the bullet accurately it must offer a certain level of performance to have the best shot at stopping the hostile actions of an attacker.

Weapon selection is an exercise in compromise, especially when it comes to handguns. The type of threat you are likely to encounter, the operational conditions under which you will encounter it, the logistics of training and support of the weapon system being considered, and a host of other factors all need to play into the decision on a carry/issue weapon.

Folks tend to get off track by emphasizing one of the factors beyond reasonable parameters. Capacity in and of itself is a great thing, but in and of itself is not the decisive factor. I'd rather have an M&P with 18 rounds than a FiveseveN with 20 because the extra capacity isn't worth the tradeoff in terminal effectiveness to me. The same applies to shot-to-shot recovery. I can recover well enough from the recoil of my M&P 9mm to put six shots on a pepper popper before it can hit the ground. With the 5.7 I might be able to put 7 shots on it. Again, the downgrade in terminal effectiveness isn't worth the extra hit on the pepper popper to me.

I'm more accurate with a 1911 than I am with the M&P, but I use the M&P as my main platform because the slight decrease in accuracy I experience is worth the trade to a weapon that is cheaper to train with, less expensive to support/replace, and that holds more ammunition.

Matt P
03-28-09, 17:43
Well your response is excellent in its ability to convey your opinion on whats best for you.
You also make some excellent points with what you consider should be issues one should possibly think about when considering any cartidge or weapon platform.

Just because someone else thinks my choice is poor, or my points dont deserve consideration, does not make it any less effective for why I carry it.
This is not suggest you did much or any of this.
After all, mere presentation of a firearm generally is enough to stop a threat.

I just wanted to add to the thread the aspects of this handgun as it related to my opinion.

Have you shot this pistol?

WS6
03-28-09, 17:50
Well your response is excellent in its ability to convey your opinion on whats best for you.
You also make some excellent points with what you consider should be issues one should possibly think about when considering any cartidge or weapon platform.

Just because someone else thinks my choice is poor, or my points dont deserve consideration, does not make it any less effective for why I carry it.
This is not suggest you did much or any of this.
After all, mere presentation of a firearm generally is enough to stop a threat.

I just wanted to add to the thread the aspects of this handgun as it related to my opinion.

Have you shot this pistol?

A ballsy first post! :cool:

What ammunition do you load your 5.7 with?

As an aside, everyone I have confered with who has actually had to shoot someone with a 5.7 pistol got the immediate result that they desired.

Matt P
03-28-09, 18:11
Thanks for the comment about the first post... I think?
Its so easy to lurk on this site due to the incredible amount of info.

I do handload for it. No easy task for me. I crushed the cases down on my 550 shell plate holder slightly. Then I had the nightmare getting them primed with my Lee hand primer.
I have tried True Blue with 33 Speers, 40 Noslers, and 35 Hornady Vmax.
I have quite a few of the cases, but due to the added work of its small size, I just havent done much with it beyond a couple hundred rounds of reloaded.
I actually dont shoot it that much for practice. I hated trying to find the small cases which seem to be thrown with abandon.

WS6
03-28-09, 18:40
Thanks for the comment about the first post... I think?
Its so easy to lurk on this site due to the incredible amount of info.

I do handload for it. No easy task for me. I crushed the cases down on my 550 shell plate holder slightly. Then I had the nightmare getting them primed with my Lee hand primer.
I have tried True Blue with 33 Speers, 40 Noslers, and 35 Hornady Vmax.
I have quite a few of the cases, but due to the added work of its small size, I just havent done much with it beyond a couple hundred rounds of reloaded.
I actually dont shoot it that much for practice. I hated trying to find the small cases which seem to be thrown with abandon.

Ryan at Elite could probably help you out with some of that.

Matt P
03-28-09, 19:14
Elite seems to be well regarded for ammunition for the 5.7

This is an easy cartridge to double charge as the powder throws are quite small. I must admit seeing the images of the handgun which an owner had made an attempt to fire with a double charge(accident), had an impact.
Having suffered a double charge myself, I feel this also keeps me from experimenting further with the cartridge.

For anyone else, I have already found the owner of Elite to very extremely helpful with reloading information for this cartidge.

Ill stop now as I seem to be off topic.

TiroFijo
03-28-09, 19:58
This is a good time to ask:

How fast/easy are the PS90 mag changes?

How is durability and reliability of the mags under hard conditions (dirty, fall to ground a few times, etc.)?

WS6
03-28-09, 22:19
This is a good time to ask:

How fast/easy are the PS90 mag changes?

How is durability and reliability of the mags under hard conditions (dirty, fall to ground a few times, etc.)?

Huge down-side here. The mags are definitely (or at least unless something changed) a total glass-jaw. I remember one person claiming theirs broke falling on the floor from normal height (table or something) when loaded. They posted pix of the cracked mag. Still functional, but who knows for how long, ect. Looked bad.

Dirty, the weapon is dead-nuts reliable. From what I have heard (again, I don't own one, but I did research the platform rather thoroughly before I decided against ownership) you can drag it to hell and back through pig slop and it will just keep on popping.

Alaskapopo
03-28-09, 22:44
What a thread to jump in and post my first comment... Oh well, here goes..

I carry the 5.7 pistol just about every day as my CCW pistol. So, I believe in it.
My reasons for carrying it have everything to do with light recoil/great controllability/great recovery.
The pistol is more like a single action trigger then a double.
20rds in the magazine is impressive, as is its incredible light weight in a full sized handgun.
Im putting all my faith in this pistol to help me deliver accuracy.
I have all the other popular cals in a defensive handgun, I just prefer to arm myself with a weapon I believe will allow me to be accurate, and have fast recovery between shots.
Cant we all agree on that accuracy with whatever weapon you choose gives you the best chance of stopping a threat?

I just didnt see anything in this thread about the 5.7s excellent accuracy and very light recoil with the handgun and all things considered with the shooter doing his part.

There must be some merit in this with the cartridge along with its magazine capacity and excellent trigger.

I would agree that many seem to try and sell others on the cartidge alone, and frequently leave out the fact of its light recoil and fast recovery.

For me its the best. Since I am not dependant on those who think it sucks, to help me defend myself, or for me to defend them, I continue to carry it.

Great Forum here guys.. A wealth of excellent information.

With respect most of your argument about light recoil and accuracy can also be attributed to a .22lr target pistol. The fact is the 5.7 lacks adiquate ballistics to be a reliable fight stopper.
Pat

WS6
03-28-09, 23:43
With respect most of your argument about light recoil and accuracy can also be attributed to a .22lr target pistol. The fact is the 5.7 lacks adiquate ballistics to be a reliable fight stopper.
Pat

I agree with part of this, but the 5.7 has a love/hate personality I think. There are loads that expand/frag and penetrate 12+" reliably. Some people choose to disreguard this. The 5.7 has not been used enough with these loads to have an adequate track record that can be definitively referenced. The times it has been used in conjunction with better than FN ammunition that I am aware of, it was used very successfully. I think that it will always be a "love it or hate it" type round with both camps supplying a plethora of information to support their viewpoints.

kal
03-29-09, 00:02
I don't understand the ongoing debate over the 5.7mm's effectiveness.

Much information about the 5.7mm has already been laid out, for better or worse.

Whatever anybody chooses to do afterwards, whether to use the 5.7mm or not, is nobody elses business.

Alaskapopo
03-29-09, 00:54
I agree with part of this, but the 5.7 has a love/hate personality I think. There are loads that expand/frag and penetrate 12+" reliably. Some people choose to disreguard this. The 5.7 has not been used enough with these loads to have an adequate track record that can be definitively referenced. The times it has been used in conjunction with better than FN ammunition that I am aware of, it was used very successfully. I think that it will always be a "love it or hate it" type round with both camps supplying a plethora of information to support their viewpoints.

I like the concept of the 5.7. Meaning a rifle like handgun round that has mild recoil and shoots flat. I just don't think the 5.7 is quite there yet in the power department. I don't know all of its loads that well but I defer to Dr Roberts research on the topic. Perhaps in the future such a cartridge will be viable but I don't feel we are there yet.
Pat

Matt P
03-29-09, 00:57
Actually I have no argument over what in my opinion is the best self defense weapon for me.
Nor would I argue my enjoyment of it should be everyones.

You have your opinion over what makes the best self defense weapon for you, along with what makes the best training for its use.
I dont expects to change anyones opinion here about what I see are its advantages.
I just wanted to point out recoil and recovery, beacause I feel it deserves some consideration.

There seems to be quite a number of them sold, are we are all wrong?

Theres merit in it for any and all I would suggest. We each see what we see in it. Its a choice, and I appreciate being able to have it.
I respect the fact many of you dont see much good about it.

Thanks for allowing me to share my opinion about it.

Alaskapopo
03-29-09, 01:36
Actually I have no argument over what in my opinion is the best self defense weapon for me.
Nor would I argue my enjoyment of it should be everyones.

You have your opinion over what makes the best self defense weapon for you, along with what makes the best training for its use.
I dont expects to change anyones opinion here about what I see are its advantages.
I just wanted to point out recoil and recovery, beacause I feel it deserves some consideration.

There seems to be quite a number of them sold, are we are all wrong?

Theres merit in it for any and all I would suggest. We each see what we see in it. Its a choice, and I appreciate being able to have it.
I respect the fact many of you dont see much good about it.

Thanks for allowing me to share my opinion about it.


There have been a number of 5.7 sold but I would guess that very few have been used in self defense. So we have no way to know if your right or wrong. I agree that recoil and recover times is important factors to consider. That is one of the reasons I prefer the 9mm and 45 acp to rounds like the 10mm and 357 sig. I just don't trust the ballistics enough on a 5.7 to depend on it. Your mileage may vary.
Pat

WS6
03-29-09, 01:49
I like the concept of the 5.7. Meaning a rifle like handgun round that has mild recoil and shoots flat. I just don't think the 5.7 is quite there yet in the power department. I don't know all of its loads that well but I defer to Dr Roberts research on the topic. Perhaps in the future such a cartridge will be viable but I don't feel we are there yet.
Pat

As far as I know, Dr. Roberts has not evaluated EA's ammunition. If he has, I would like to read/know his opinion of it.

Any time you gain something, you give up something else. In stock form, I feel the 5.7 gave up too much, just like you do. However, with the advent of ammunition that reliably penetrates 12"+ and causes 3" wide permanent cavitation, I feel that it is viable as an alternative to a 9mm SMG or something similar, which is what it was intended to accomplish--provide AP capability in a light, accurate package. This it does very well in the militaristic roll. In the civilian roll, it took a while for someone to develope a round that would make it viable, but I feel that time as come. We just need more evidence to support that opinion to sway others to form a fact-based position on it.

As I have said, the failure of the 5.7 round using the FN ammunition has been well documented--also it's success in that chambering. I would not trust it with stock FN ammunition, although SS198 is an upgrade from stuff floating around a while back.

ToddG
03-29-09, 01:52
As an aside, everyone I have confered with who has actually had to shoot someone with a 5.7 pistol got the immediate result that they desired.

Can you cite some documentation? Because everyone I have conferred with who has been involved with or directly aware of a 5.7 pistol shooting (same department or within the same jurisdiction) has reported pretty dismal results and all of the testing I've seen has indicated the round dramatically underperforms compared to common LE calibers.

As for the recoil/accuracy thing, I would echo JW777. I can shoot a .22 pistol a lot faster than a 9mm but that extra speed doesn't compensate for lack of dependable terminal effect. I'm an avowed worshipper of the high-velocity/high-energy voodoo, but from the pistol the best any of the FN-approved loads is going to do is about 315 ft-lbs which won't excite the energy junkies at all.

And as for the trigger, it feels like a single action because it is a single action.

WS6
03-29-09, 02:10
Can you cite some documentation? Because everyone I have conferred with who has been involved with or directly aware of a 5.7 pistol shooting (same department or within the same jurisdiction) has reported pretty dismal results and all of the testing I've seen has indicated the round dramatically underperforms compared to common LE calibers.

As for the recoil/accuracy thing, I would echo JW777. I can shoot a .22 pistol a lot faster than a 9mm but that extra speed doesn't compensate for lack of dependable terminal effect. I'm an avowed worshipper of the high-velocity/high-energy voodoo, but from the pistol the best any of the FN-approved loads is going to do is about 315 ft-lbs which won't excite the energy junkies at all.

And as for the trigger, it feels like a single action because it is a single action.

With EA's loads, you get around 380FPE and well over 2,000fps with a 40gr round and 2600fps with the 28gr projectiles. This is from a 5.7 pistol and a round loaded by a licensed manufacturer. However, FN's rounds work okay too it seems. Just not as much potential. The SS198 is an upgrade though.

I don't have documentation. I have personal conversations with people who shot other people with this round. Let me see if I can dig up a few conversations I had online about it. (all were justified self defence, obviously).

Here is what the people who have actually used this round had to say to me:

Person 1:
Having had two on-duty shooting experiences with the SS192 cartridge, both being very satisfactory resolutions with only one shot fired (by me).

With the first shoot, I struck the BG in the left pelvis, destroying the stability of the leg and dropping him on his head. He eventually had the leg amputated. I discharged only one round, which did not exit the guy after striking his pelvis.

The second incident is still not yet legally resolved; although I have been found to be criminally non-liable; therefore I can't really speak about it other than to say it resulted in the death of the target; also a one-shot ordeal.

Person 2:
I can tell you what it did to a Pit Bull. From 7 yards, it left no noticable hole on the entry side and took away the entire other side of his skull. This was the SS195 from the FiveseveN.


These are the two correspondances I have been able to dig up that I had a while back. More OIS's ect. will come out with time and paint a broader picture. Notice none of the above even used EA's ammo but used the factory stuff. Even that seemed to work just fine.

PS. All of what testing? You mean testing done by people who were on the pay-roll of companies competing with FN for govt. contracts?

Again, I would like to note that the people tasked with protecting the highest profile target in this country currently use the 5.7x28 round. I highly doubt that they have a budget forcing them to use this or pressure on them from any entities, when you consider that a SIG is their side-arm of choice while the FN is their main weapon. It looks to me like they picked and chose what they felt would serve them best. I highly doubt they would intentionally pick an inferior weapon for their purpose.

Matt P
03-29-09, 05:47
You are correct with the 5.7 being a single action as indeed the firing pin is cocked. I stand corrected, or at least clarified.

Great post on the incidents and examples of its use. Thanks.

Shouldnt 22 mag be a better comparison then 22 rimfire?
I have a AMT 22 mag, heck, if they made one in polymer, with equal magazine capacity, and the rail.. I would be all over that!

Derek_Connor
03-29-09, 08:13
I have personally spoken with JSO SWAT Officer who was involved in a shooting when JSO was running 5.7 Rifles (FN). And other SWAT officers who were present.

This event invovled the officer climbing onto the hood of the car and shooting a multitude of rounds at the suspect's cranium and face, through the windshield.

Though this entire period of time the suspect was screaming "stop shooting me, stop shooting me!" as rounds were making contact with his face,head and body.

I am not aware of the actual amount of rounds that landed, but it was more than several. I do not know the specific round used. I do not know many rounds made contact with the windshield prior to hitting the suspect. I do know the suspect survived, let alone, his face doesn't look the same.

I also know that the JSO SWAT does not carry 5.7 kit anymore, and they are not complaining about it either.


eta: i realize this is a very small sample size and only of a few isolated incidents, and that the JSO has no where near the time/research/$$$$ invested into weapon programs like the USSS or other go fast agencies. But here in Jacksonville, aka the wild wild west, alot of JSO Officers are forced to shoot this MFERs and it seems like the 5.7 wasn't getting it done for this active department..

hatt
03-29-09, 08:19
I don't understand the ongoing debate over the 5.7mm's effectiveness.

Much information about the 5.7mm has already been laid out, for better or worse.

Whatever anybody chooses to do afterwards, whether to use the 5.7mm or not, is nobody elses business.

LOL, bring up the .357 mag around some places. That round has been putting people down for the better part of a century but just gets blasted.

People on both sides just have to be right and whatever they have is better than whatever someone else has.

Marcus L.
03-29-09, 09:03
LOL, bring up the .357 mag around some places. That round has been putting people down for the better part of a century but just gets blasted.

People on both sides just have to be right and whatever they have is better than whatever someone else has.

No one here is debating the effectiveness of the .357magnum. The .357mag had a distinct terminal effects advantage over the other lower velocity calibers in the past because of poor hollow point designs.

The .357magnum earned its “manstopper” reputation in the early days of hollow point design which was from about the late 1960s to the late 1980s. During that time period ammunition manufactures tested their hollow point designs in water tanks. Water does not compress. So, when a hollow point bullet impacts a hydraulic substance the water that is constantly being fed into nose of the bullet as it penetrates must escape at the weakest point of resistance. That weakest point is along the sides of the hollow point. So, the hydraulic force opens up the hollow point and causes the mushrooming effect. The problem with the water tank testing is that human tissue is not 100% water. So, the hydraulic forces involved in shooting a person are weaker than that of a water tank. This problem was very evident with lower velocity loads such as heavier bullet weights in 9mm, .38spl, .357mag, and .45acp. The poor engineering behind these early hollow points made for unreliable performance unless you cranked up the velocity of the bullets and used lighter bullet weights(this of course led shallow penetration characteristics with the 9mm and directly to the deaths of two FBI agents in 1986). In this time, the .357magnum was the ideal cartridge because it had the velocity to open up these poorly designed early hollow points and still have deep penetration. With many ammunition manufacturers using properly calibrated ballistic gel to test their loads now, the discrepency has been greatly reduced. No longer is the high velocity of the .357mag needed to reliably open up JHPs, as is evident in recovered bullets of all the popular service calibers in actual shootings. LE agencies using good quality, modern ammunition have had great success with lower velocity calibers. Is the .357magnum effective.....yes.....are modernized 9mm, .40S&W, and .45acp effective.....yes.

When you look at wounding mechanisms, the .357mag had measurable mechanics. Temporary cavity stretch was also measurable, although less well understood. The 5.7mm also has measurable wounding mechanics. It produces small permanent cavities similar to that of a .22magnum with minimal temporary cavity stretch. When using JHP or fragmenting ammunition, the permanent wound cavity and temporary stretch cavity improves. However, in NO proper FBI protocol testing I have ever observed has the 5.7mm come close to the 5.56 in performance. When 5th SFG(A) contacted Dr. Roberts about penetration problems and poor stopping effects of the M855 from Afghanistan, it was determined that the 5.56 M855 had terminal performance issues. Even after the introduction of the 77gr OTM there was still a question of whether the 5.56 was adequate. Thus, the beginning of the 6.8 SPC project. What on earth would possess someone into thinking that the 5.7mm "might" be adequate when it offers subpar performance in comparison to the 5.56?

Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90.

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.

--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.

--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.

--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.

--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.

--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.


Some excellent terminal effects links:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

ToddG
03-29-09, 10:00
I don't have documentation. I have personal conversations with people who shot other people with this round. Let me see if I can dig up a few conversations I had online about it. (all were justified self defence, obviously).

OK ... you have a couple of online chats. What steps did you take to verify the credentials of these people? What information were you able to discover independent of their personal claims that supported the event?

A single 5.7 round shattering a pelvis and causing someone to lose the ability to stand upright seems pretty fantastical to me.


PS. All of what testing? You mean testing done by people who were on the pay-roll of companies competing with FN for govt. contracts?

Can you provide documentation of testing done "by people who were on the pay-roll of companies competing with FN" or is this just something else you read on the internet?

Having you bothered to read the stickied post by DocGKR on this subject? Certainly you're not suggesting he's on anyone's "pay-roll," are you?


Again, I would like to note that the people tasked with protecting the highest profile target in this country currently use the 5.7x28 round.

That's disingenuous. First, they do not use the 5.7 pistol (after multiple attempts by FN to convince them to do otherwise). Second, the version of the P90 issued by USSS is the full auto variant, not available to private citizens, which makes up for anemic wounding capability with ridiculous cyclic rate and non-existent muzzle rise. Third, the P90 is not in general issue. It's used for very limited and specific purposes. For those limited and specific purposes, it may be one of the best options on the market. But those limited and specific purposes have practically nothing to do with the challenges faced by a lone private citizen defending himself in or out of the home. Nor does that lone private citizen have access to the model and features of the P90 that make it viable for the Secret Service.

I'd suggest you stop drawing conclusions based on (1) what you've read on some pro-5.7 propaganda sites and (2) what you imagine is true about agencies you don't know anything about.

John_Wayne777
03-29-09, 10:25
One other tidbit of information:

LE agencies (like the USSS) use 5.7 ammunition that is available ONLY to LE and military organizations. Ordinary civilians CANNOT buy that ammunition. The USSS is not using the ammunition the ordinary joe can buy off the shelf.

John_Wayne777
03-29-09, 10:27
Though this entire period of time the suspect was screaming "stop shooting me, stop shooting me!" as rounds were making contact with his face,head and body.


I think they may have had multiple "Stop shooting me!!" incidents....DocGKR is the best guy to ask about that.

WS6
03-29-09, 11:28
I think they may have had multiple "Stop shooting me!!" incidents....DocGKR is the best guy to ask about that.

I am aware of multiple failures from the M4 platform that mirror this incident.

Anything non-bonded or non-monolithic in .224 caliber just flat out sucks against a windshield. Period.

Btw, that SS190 ammunition used. It's crap compared to what I can go out and (legally) buy if I so choose. In EVERY way. Penetration,cavitation,you name it. So nothing special there.

The FA mode of fire does make up for a lot, I grant you that, but I would think that someone protecting the president would pick something based on more than it's ability to be used as a bullet-hose.

On this same note. It is obvious that no matter whether the 5.7 penetrates the magical 12" (yep, in 15% gel no-less) or not, and whether or not it causes cavities that are larger in diameter than some 75gr OTM .223 loads (suprise), you will not be swayed. That is obvious. Debating this with you is not going to convert you.
Similarly, my opinion is also rather ingrained. Ergo, I think that you (collective) and I are going to have to accept that the 5.7 has worked wonderfully for some people, and not-so for others. If it worked great for everyone, there would be no debate. If it was pure crap, the people protecting the president wouldn't use it.

Derek_Connor
03-29-09, 12:05
If it was pure crap, the people protecting the president wouldn't use it.

While you've presented data to support your claim, your last statement should be restated.

The extreme view, or even "all or none" principle backing that statement shouldn't be used to justify any type of claim.

WS6
03-29-09, 12:21
While you've presented data to support your claim, your last statement should be restated.

The extreme view, or even "all or none" principle backing that statement shouldn't be used to justify any type of claim.

I beg to differ. If the 5.7 were, as some people in this thread have insinuated, worthless. I doubt it would be used in above manner. I present an extreme view (it can't be crap b/c the presidents body guards use it) to better illuminate a moderate one (it does pretty well as it was designed). The 5.7 is a compromise, no doubt! But it is a better compromise than some make it out to be, and in some rolls, it excells.

Alaskapopo
03-29-09, 12:35
You are correct with the 5.7 being a single action as indeed the firing pin is cocked. I stand corrected, or at least clarified.

Great post on the incidents and examples of its use. Thanks.

Shouldnt 22 mag be a better comparison then 22 rimfire?
I have a AMT 22 mag, heck, if they made one in polymer, with equal magazine capacity, and the rail.. I would be all over that!

I hope you are kidding a 22 mag pistol is very anemic from the terminal performance standpoint unless you need a 22 mag auto pistol with a light rail to defend against attacking mice.
Pat

WS6
03-29-09, 12:44
I hope you are kidding a 22 mag pistol is very anemic from the terminal performance standpoint unless you need a 22 mag auto pistol with a light rail to defend against attacking mice.
Pat

It's better than the .25 pocket rockets some people carry at least :eek:. The .22mag will reach 12+" from a small pistol. However, the 5.7 round creates over a 30% larger, and much uglier cavity than the .22 mag when fired from a pistol. The cavity from the .22 mag is 2.5" dia or less in testing I have seen.

I will concede one point, however. I feel that a well designed 230gr JHP is THE solution for carry. It has been for many years and will continue to be. Nothing against 9mm or anything of the sort, but if I only had 1 shot, I would want it to be a 230gr HST or something of the like.

ToddG
03-29-09, 13:51
[QUOTE=WS6;338745]I present an extreme view (it can't be crap b/c the presidents body guards use it) to better illuminate a moderate one (it does pretty well as it was designed).

Your problem is that you are inferring the wrong thing.

You, point #1: Agency-XYZ issues the Glock red training gun.
You, point #2: Therefore, the Glock red training gun is a good defensive weapon.

USSS uses the P90 for a specific and limited purpose. They clearly do not think it's a suitable general issue weapon, and they very obviously don't think the 5.7 pistol is a viable alternative to the sidearm they currently issue. You really need to stop relying on the "Secret Service uses it so it must be good" argument because it's completely nonsensical.

Marcus L.
03-29-09, 15:22
[QUOTE=WS6;338243]



Your problem is that you are inferring the wrong thing.

You, point #1: Agency-XYZ issues the Glock red training gun.
You, point #2: Therefore, the Glock red training gun is a good defensive weapon.

USSS uses the P90 for a specific and limited purpose. They clearly do not think it's a suitable general issue weapon, and they very obviously don't think the 5.7 pistol is a viable alternative to the sidearm they currently issue. You really need to stop relying on the "Secret Service uses it so it must be good" argument because it's completely nonsensical.

Can anyone give us an estimate as to how many shootings the USSS is involved in every year?......I know it isn't very many. LAPD SWAT tried out the P90 for about 6 months and they dumped it for M4s. Miami SWAT also tried out the P90 for a short period of time before they dumped it for the M4. Both of these units experience a substancial number of shooting incidents every year and from their experiences the 5.7mm was tried and rejected.

When it comes to US military units, the adoption of the 5.7mm and 4.6mm are pretty much nonexistant. Yes, there are a number of countries around the world that have adopted the 5.7mm and 4.6mm. Of all of them the only country to employ them in any serious use was German SF in Afghanistan with the 4.6mm and it had mediocre results. Notice that virtually none of the countries that have adopted these PDW calibers have done any extensive military operations in the last 15 years.

When you look at the capable militaries of the world such as the US, Russia, and China.......they are all trending towards larger caliber infantry weapons.
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/55658545.jpg
5.56 NATO, 5.8x42mm Chinese, 5.45x39mm Russian

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/SP-5SP-6AP762x39M43.jpg
9x39mm Russian, 9x39mm Russian AP, 7.62x39mm M43

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/9mmNATO9x21mmSP-10AP.jpg
9mm NATO, 9x21mm Russian AP

The Chinese have adapted the newer 5.8x42mm in a wide array of short barrel and bullpup weapons and it has become their general issue cartridge. Reports indicate that it is superior to the 5.56 when shooting through windshields and body armor. The Russians have adapted the 9x39mm similarly and it compromises almost half of their current infantry inventory. This load will penetrate all soft armor with standard FMJ, and level III with the penetrator or AP load. Its 9mm 260gr bullet punches through windshields as if they weren't even there in addition to cinder blocks, telephone poles, and just about anything else we might consider to be cover. The Russians use the 9x21mm is some roles, but they also use a modified +P+ 9mm AP load in the Yarygin PYa which will defeat soft body armor and the US kevlar helmet.

When it comes to effective combat calibers, our eastern counterparts are going bigger and more powerful.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/316px-SS197_223_comparo.jpg
5.7x28mm, 5.56 NATO

.......why?

kal
03-29-09, 16:06
As far as I understand, the 9x39mm after acheiving its purpose, as a silent rifle cartridge, starting being advertised as a "low ricochet" cartridge for the 9a-91 and SR-3 Vikhr compact rifles.

This was in an attempt to resolve the issues the Russian paramilitaries were facing with the 5.45mm from the AKSU74 ricocheting in buildings, etc.

Of all the stuff I've read about the 9x39mm, I've never read anything promoting its terminal effective unless the literature was primarily describing its effectiveness after penetrating armor of sorts.

On to other things, you failed to mention the Chinese type 05 and the 5.8x21mm that it uses.

The type 05 is a bullpup that also uses a 50 round magazine like the P90.

http://www.gun-world.net/china/smg/05/type05_r.jpg
http://www.gun-world.net/china/smg/05/84498.jpg
http://www.gun-world.net/china/smg/05/69918.jpg



This pic shows the 5.8x21, 7.62 tokarev, and 9mm para
http://www.gun-world.net/ammo/58x21/ammovs.jpg

QZS92 pistol
http://www.gun-world.net/china/handgun/qsz92/58_01.jpg

Matt P
03-29-09, 17:38
I hope you are kidding a 22 mag pistol is very anemic from the terminal performance standpoint unless you need a 22 mag auto pistol with a light rail to defend against attacking mice.
Pat

You should see some of the mice in my area......
Anyways, thankfully there are many in the industry who felt there are other ways to do other things. If not for this, maybe we would wouldnt have the selection we have in cartidges and the firearms to propell them with.

Again I dont need to convince you of what I think is most effective for me.

Through this thread, I have merely pointed out for consideration what I feel is an important aspect with the 5.7, and certainly played a huge role in my choosing it.

Mental note to self.. Never introduce your own opinion as a new member, in a thread so filled with contrasting opinions.

hatt
03-29-09, 17:40
I have no interest in the 5.7 performance, I don't have one or plan on getting one or really know much about it. But if someone feels good with it, I don't care about that either. I'm just commenting on other cartridges with good performance that cause all the endless fighting. If the .357 mag worked good back in the days of crappy bullets it likely performs even better today with improved bullets. If someone chooses it however you have people coming out of the woodwork to jump on their CHOICE. I carry the .357 Sig with GoldDots. It passes all the FBI tests people are demanding yet still it draws arguments for some reason because it isn't what they have. You can substitute just about anything into the mix and if it isn't the latest thing out expect the interweb to erupt.

Alaskapopo
03-29-09, 17:51
You should see some of the mice in my area......
Anyways, thankfully there are many in the industry who felt there are other ways to do other things. If not for this, maybe we would wouldnt have the selection we have in cartidges and the firearms to propell them with.

Again I dont need to convince you of what I think is most effective for me.

Through this thread, I have merely pointed out for consideration what I feel is an important aspect with the 5.7, and certainly played a huge role in my choosing it.

Mental note to self.. Never introduce your own opinion as a new member, in a thread so filled with contrasting opinions.
I am not trying to disrespect you but I find your opinion on what is acceptable terminal performance in a pistol un realistic. Also I am all for new ideas. I like the idea of a fast light bullet that performs like a rifle but the 5.7 is not enough. The 22 mag is no where near enough.
Pat

WS6
03-29-09, 19:42
You should see some of the mice in my area......
Anyways, thankfully there are many in the industry who felt there are other ways to do other things. If not for this, maybe we would wouldnt have the selection we have in cartidges and the firearms to propell them with.

Again I dont need to convince you of what I think is most effective for me.

Through this thread, I have merely pointed out for consideration what I feel is an important aspect with the 5.7, and certainly played a huge role in my choosing it.

Mental note to self.. Never introduce your own opinion as a new member, in a thread so filled with contrasting opinions.

I jumped into this knowing my opinion would not be popular with everyone, but I don't take it personally. If I met one of these people in person, I wouldn't get all hyped up about it. Heck, I just shipped a guy in this thread that adamently disagrees with me almost $1,000 worth of stuff. This is a forum for opinion and fact and the interpretation of that fact based on personal thought processes.

Sometimes thick skin is required, but I don't think a single person here has a beef with anyone else just because they like a specific round or dislike it. I belive we are all more mature than that.

Fail-Safe
03-29-09, 20:19
An ice pick if place properly will take care of business but I don't recommend it as a self defense tool. The .30 carbine with expanding ammo is comparable to a good service pistol round. It does not come close to the performance offered by a good 5.56 load. Also my dad did not see fallacy he saw that little round for what it is useless.
Pat

There is a distinct difference between an ice pick, and a shoulder fired, powder burning, lead and copper projectile firing weapon. If the 30-06 isnt placed properly, it isnt going to do the job.

Unfortunately your comment about the .30Carbine being comparable to a "good service pistol cartridge", I will see your unsubstantiated comment, and raise you comments from the very respected Dr Roberts, "The Remington load has an average velocity of 1864 f/s, expands to around .54” to .58” and penetrates 13” to 16” whether in bare gelatin, through automobile windshields, or Level IIIa body armor. This is comparable intermediate barrier performance to many good .223 loads.". A "good service pistol cartidge" cant do the things the .30Carbine can. Here's a link to the actual tacked article by Dr Roberts: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19956

As for your dad, he may have seen some poorly placed shots. The round is far from useless. See some of Jim Cirillo's comments on the rifle and the round it fired. Rest assured, the .30Carbine isnt going to produce wounds like those from the 30-06, but then again, it wasnt designed to.

Alaskapopo
03-29-09, 20:23
There is a distinct difference between an ice pick, and a shoulder fired, powder burning, lead and copper projectile firing weapon. If the 30-06 isnt placed properly, it isnt going to do the job.

Unfortunately your comment about the .30Carbine being comparable to a "good service pistol cartridge", I will see your unsubstantiated comment, and raise you comments from the very respected Dr Roberts, "The Remington load has an average velocity of 1864 f/s, expands to around .54” to .58” and penetrates 13” to 16” whether in bare gelatin, through automobile windshields, or Level IIIa body armor. This is comparable intermediate barrier performance to many good .223 loads.". A "good service pistol cartidge" cant do the things the .30Carbine can. Here's a link to the actual tacked article by Dr Roberts: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19956

As for your dad, he may have seen some poorly placed shots. The round is far from useless. See some of Jim Cirillo's comments on the rifle and the round it fired. Rest assured, the .30Carbine isnt going to produce wounds like those from the 30-06, but then again, it wasnt designed to.

A good 45 acp load will expand between .75 and .90 caliber and penetrate between 12 and 15 inches. The only thing it will not do is penetrate a level IIIa vest. The 30 carbine acts like a .357 mag for the most part and is not comparable to a .223. The .30 carbine has earned dismal reputation in the terminal ballistics area. While new loads may have made it a lot better its still has more in common with a handgun round than a rifle round.
QUOTE
The .30 caliber M1 Carbine 110 gr FMJ military bullets have a typical velocity of 1970 f/s. As these are non-deforming, non-fragmenting projectiles, they produces minimal tissue damage, somewhat similar to the U. S. 9 mm NATO M882 124 gr FMJ. While M1 carbines have a poor reputation when using GI ball ammo, good expanding bullets offer a stunning leap in incapacitation potential and should cause us to rethink the M1 carbine as a self defense rifle and even as a LE patrol rifle for agencies that won’t allow AR15’s for whatever asinine reasons. The M1 Carbine is a very viable choice as a personal defense weapon for use out to 100 yards or so; in many ways, the M1 Carbine was the M4 of it's era (1940's to early 1960's) and can still be effective today when fed the right ammunition.
END QUOTE

Sounds to me like he is saying its an acceptable choice if you can't have a rifle and I would agree with that. But otherwise no way.
Pat

WS6
03-29-09, 20:26
A good 45 acp load will expand between .75 and .90 caliber and penetrate between 12 and 15 inches. The only thing it will not do is penetrate a level IIIa vest. The 30 carbine acts like a .357 mag for the most part and is not comparable to a .223. The .30 carbine has earned dismal reputation in the terminal ballistics area. While new loads may have made it a lot better its still has more in common with a handgun round than a rifle round.
Pat

I think a lot of the bad reputation for the M1 .30 came from scared teenagers trying to throw lead at someone while that scared teenager threw lead back, and crappy FMJ ammunition. That being said, I wouldn't imagine .30 ball to be that great unless you hit a CNS structure.

Marcus L.
03-29-09, 22:18
I think a lot of the bad reputation for the M1 .30 came from scared teenagers trying to throw lead at someone while that scared teenager threw lead back, and crappy FMJ ammunition. That being said, I wouldn't imagine .30 ball to be that great unless you hit a CNS structure.

I've shot a few goats, coyotes, and hogs with .30 Carbine FMJ before. Like all calibers, placement is important if you want to drop the animal before it runs 100+yards. The 110gr FMJ was very weak in terms of rapid incapacitation and the animals would often run over 100yards before they even slowed. However, I have taken about a dozen white tail deer with SP and JHP .30 Carbine and the improvement was quite noticable. Much like hunting with a JHP .357magnum.

A pointed projectile with no cutting or tearing surfaces will cause minimal permanent crush cavity, in addition to little temporary cavity stretch due to less hydrolic wake. Much like shooting a target arrow into an animal, a pointed bullet pushes aside a lot of tissue without causing significant damage. The tissue around a target stretches around it, and when you withdraw the arrow almost all of the tissue returns to true. Wadcutters and JHPs, with their wide frontal tearing surface dramatically improve the terminal effects of any caliber.

If you think something like the 7.62x39 in FMJ form is much better.....not really. If you use a more rapid tumbling load like the Yugo M67 you're better off than using the more common M43. Here's a great read by Dr. Fackler on the 1989 Stockon schoolyard shooting in which 35 adults and children were shot up with an AK-47:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/fl_aw_report2.txt

It also lays out some valuable information on terminal effects in general. It just goes to show that sometimes the most widely used military cartridge in world history is actually fairly mediocre in comparison to other options. Give the 7.62x39 a SP or JHP and it is quite impressive.

Without a good, reliable wounding mechanism most commonly used calibers are subpar. With the right ammo, most are quite viable and have the potential to be pretty effective. I believe the .30 Carbine fits that criteria, and so does Fackler and Dr. Roberts. However, I have never read of a credible and experienced ballistics researcher that thought the 5.7x28mm was a viable caliber for anything larger than a coyote.

Fail-Safe
03-29-09, 23:04
A good 45 acp load will expand between .75 and .90 caliber and penetrate between 12 and 15 inches. The only thing it will not do is penetrate a level IIIa vest. The 30 carbine acts like a .357 mag for the most part and is not comparable to a .223. The .30 carbine has earned dismal reputation in the terminal ballistics area. While new loads may have made it a lot better its still has more in common with a handgun round than a rifle round.

The .30Carbine can take more advantage of the TSC whereas as .45acp and .357mag simply cant because of their slower speeds. Dont forget the intermediate barrier performance, thats another thing the .30Carbine has over the .45acp and the .357mag(except maybe the 180gr Winchester PG).


QUOTE
The .30 caliber M1 Carbine 110 gr FMJ military bullets have a typical velocity of 1970 f/s. As these are non-deforming, non-fragmenting projectiles, they produces minimal tissue damage, somewhat similar to the U. S. 9 mm NATO M882 124 gr FMJ. While M1 carbines have a poor reputation when using GI ball ammo, good expanding bullets offer a stunning leap in incapacitation potential and should cause us to rethink the M1 carbine as a self defense rifle and even as a LE patrol rifle for agencies that won’t allow AR15’s for whatever asinine reasons. The M1 Carbine is a very viable choice as a personal defense weapon for use out to 100 yards or so; in many ways, the M1 Carbine was the M4 of it's era (1940's to early 1960's) and can still be effective today when fed the right ammunition.
END QUOTE

Sounds to me like he is saying its an acceptable choice if you can't have a rifle and I would agree with that. But otherwise no way.
Pat

Actually, with that quote, it sounds like he is agreeing with my original post in this thread. The M1/M2 is still the best PDW. Furthermore, we can play this semantics game all night, the M1Carbine is a rifle.

Fail-Safe
03-29-09, 23:13
I've shot a few goats, coyotes, and hogs with .30 Carbine FMJ before. Like all calibers, placement is important if you want to drop the animal before it runs 100+yards. The 110gr FMJ was very weak in terms of rapid incapacitation and the animals would often run over 100yards before they even slowed. However, I have taken about a dozen white tail deer with SP and JHP .30 Carbine and the improvement was quite noticable. Much like hunting with a JHP .357magnum.


I dont do much hunting, but where my family has land, alot of people do. Surprisingly enough, the M1Carbine in both USGI and commercial forms, are quite popular, especially with the elder ranch owners. They use it to try and erradicate the feral hog problem in the area. They do seem to work quite well!

WS6
03-29-09, 23:48
I've shot a few goats, coyotes, and hogs with .30 Carbine FMJ before. Like all calibers, placement is important if you want to drop the animal before it runs 100+yards. The 110gr FMJ was very weak in terms of rapid incapacitation and the animals would often run over 100yards before they even slowed. However, I have taken about a dozen white tail deer with SP and JHP .30 Carbine and the improvement was quite noticable. Much like hunting with a JHP .357magnum.

A pointed projectile with no cutting or tearing surfaces will cause minimal permanent crush cavity, in addition to little temporary cavity stretch due to less hydrolic wake. Much like shooting a target arrow into an animal, a pointed bullet pushes aside a lot of tissue without causing significant damage. The tissue around a target stretches around it, and when you withdraw the arrow almost all of the tissue returns to true. Wadcutters and JHPs, with their wide frontal tearing surface dramatically improve the terminal effects of any caliber.

If you think something like the 7.62x39 in FMJ form is much better.....not really. If you use a more rapid tumbling load like the Yugo M67 you're better off than using the more common M43. Here's a great read by Dr. Fackler on the 1989 Stockon schoolyard shooting in which 35 adults and children were shot up with an AK-47:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/fl_aw_report2.txt

It also lays out some valuable information on terminal effects in general. It just goes to show that sometimes the most widely used military cartridge in world history is actually fairly mediocre in comparison to other options. Give the 7.62x39 a SP or JHP and it is quite impressive.

Without a good, reliable wounding mechanism most commonly used calibers are subpar. With the right ammo, most are quite viable and have the potential to be pretty effective. I believe the .30 Carbine fits that criteria, and so does Fackler and Dr. Roberts. However, I have never read of a credible and experienced ballistics researcher that thought the 5.7x28mm was a viable caliber for anything larger than a coyote.


Lest we forget, our beloved 5.56 is simply a souped up 222. I belive this round was designed for vermin. My point in all of this is that the 5.7x28 is not that far behind some of the poorer performing 5.56 loads that have been doing the job for years, albeit not the best, but they are far from worthless.

WS6
03-29-09, 23:49
I dont do much hunting, but where my family has land, alot of people do. Surprisingly enough, the M1Carbine in both USGI and commercial forms, are quite popular, especially with the elder ranch owners. They use it to try and erradicate the feral hog problem in the area. They do seem to work quite well!

Softpoint bullets in a small, maneuverable auto-loader that a lot of those elder ranchers know how to keep in service and are familiar with from their days in the army. No doubt they are skilled in their use and the result apparently speaks for itself. I don't doubt your story one bit.

Alaskapopo
03-30-09, 00:25
The .30Carbine can take more advantage of the TSC whereas as .45acp and .357mag simply cant because of their slower speeds. Dont forget the intermediate barrier performance, thats another thing the .30Carbine has over the .45acp and the .357mag(except maybe the 180gr Winchester PG).


Actually, with that quote, it sounds like he is agreeing with my original post in this thread. The M1/M2 is still the best PDW. Furthermore, we can play this semantics game all night, the M1Carbine is a rifle.

The 30 carbine does not reach the point where the TSC aids in wounding potential. Human tissue is elastic and the 30 carbine like handgun rounds does not push tissue past its elasticity point. Meaning only the permanent wound channel matters. Its not like the .223
Pat

WS6
03-30-09, 00:45
The 30 carbine does not reach the point where the TSC aids in wounding potential. Human tissue is elastic and the 30 carbine like handgun rounds does not push tissue past its elasticity point. Meaning only the permanent wound channel matters. Its not like the .223
Pat

+1 unless something non-elastic or very fragile is encountered.

Matt P
03-30-09, 12:20
Thanks WS6 for your comments. I do have pretty thick skin, but I feel forum etiquette would normally dictate an introduction of me over less controversial topics.
I do admire you for the stance you have taken, and your willingness to engage others in this topic. You seem well versed for this discussion over my simple enjoyment of this cartridge.

Pat, I just put a premium in light recoil and recovery, along with a polymer framed railed handgun. It has an excellent trigger which I smoothed even more.
As for being unrealistic, I guess I just put more of price on accuracy then I do on big bullets going down range. I’m also the guy who hunts pig and deer with .223. Oh, and I have taken many pigs with .223.. The most shots fired with that.. 2.
This to demonstrate I like the concept of accuracy over everything else.

Great info in this thread. Thanks to many of you for sharing it.

Fail-Safe
03-30-09, 17:33
The 30 carbine does not reach the point where the TSC aids in wounding potential. Human tissue is elastic and the 30 carbine like handgun rounds does not push tissue past its elasticity point. Meaning only the permanent wound channel matters. Its not like the .223
Pat

Actually, with .30Carbine reaching the upper echelon of the 1900 fps range, and with some rounds exceeding that, it does take advantage of the TSC. While not as much as say a 75gr OTM, it still is able to put it to beneficial use. More say than basic .45acps and .357mags.

WS6
03-30-09, 17:37
Thanks WS6 for your comments. I do have pretty thick skin, but I feel forum etiquette would normally dictate an introduction of me over less controversial topics.
I do admire you for the stance you have taken, and your willingness to engage others in this topic. You seem well versed for this discussion over my simple enjoyment of this cartridge.

Pat, I just put a premium in light recoil and recovery, along with a polymer framed railed handgun. It has an excellent trigger which I smoothed even more.
As for being unrealistic, I guess I just put more of price on accuracy then I do on big bullets going down range. I’m also the guy who hunts pig and deer with .223. Oh, and I have taken many pigs with .223.. The most shots fired with that.. 2.
This to demonstrate I like the concept of accuracy over everything else.

Great info in this thread. Thanks to many of you for sharing it.

Technically, I think that a "Hey guys" thread in the appropriate forum would have illicited "Hey man!" responses from almost everyone in this thread. I wouldn't take it personal. If you grab hold of the bull by the horns, you need to be prepaired to wrestle with it. Learned that one a long time ago when it comes to pretty much anything.

Another thing I would note is that your main deal with the 5.7x28 is reduced recoil/increased personal accuracy.

While I feel the 5.7 is a viable round, there are rounds that do a lot better from a handgun. Especially through glass.

Usually, it takes me 500 rounds just to get used to a new weapon. For that 500 rounds, I will shoot 5-8" groups at 25 yards with it. After about 500 rounds (more for heavy calibers, less for lighter), I can usually manage a seated group of around 3-4" at 25 yards, and a standing group of about the same-size at 15 yards.

If you practice, you can handle more recoil and be accurate with the weapon. There is a learning curve, yes. However, launching a chunk of lead that expands to over an inch in diameter and punches through over a foot of tissue is the pay-off.

The 5.7's main advantage comes from it's use in the P90 when compared to something like a 7.5" AR shorty or an MP5 when body armor may be encountered.

Yes it is viable and not totally worthless like some have stated, but viable does not mean BEST or First Pick. While I like the 5.7 round, I never did claim to be a fanboy and I can't save it from the facts. I simply wanted to show that the 5.7 isn't the worthless eye-putter-outer that some people have made it out to be.

*Also of note, Glock and H&K as well as FN make polymer framed pistols in heavier calibers. Many others do too. I think the Glock platform is best because of the way recoil is managed by the flexing of the frame and the very low bore-axis. Again, this is fact mixed with personal opinion. All I know is muzzle-flip is greatly reduced compared to the SIG's, 1911's, H&K's, and other pistols I have shot. They are also pretty good at going "bang" when you want them to.

Marcus L.
03-30-09, 17:55
Actually, with .30Carbine reaching the upper echelon of the 1900 fps range, and with some rounds exceeding that, it does take advantage of the TSC. While not as much as say a 75gr OTM, it still is able to put it to beneficial use. More say than basic .45acps and .357mags.

When you look at FBI protocols, the .30 Carbine actually does better than most 5.56 loads when it comes to barrier penetration:
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/speer30carbineGD.jpg

Trajectory is very similar to the 7.62x39mm at ranges up to 200yrds. I think it would make a great patrol rifle due to these abilities. Better penetration through commonly encountered barriers than 5.56, better terminal effects than a handgun, and better controllability than a 7.62x39 or .308. I'd just like to see it utilized it a more modern platform.

Shihan
03-30-09, 18:16
Everyone has an oppinion on things. The SS likes the round for some reason me not so much but the PS90 and FiveSeven pistol were cool toys for me to add. Would I go to them as a first or 2nd choice no but still cool to have.

Matt P
03-30-09, 18:50
Thanks WS6 for your efforts.
Actually I own in Glocks 17,35, 24, and a 21, along with an HK Expert in 45. These wouldnt be all I own, just the ones I often shoot.
I am not trying to show u mine, more to say I appreciate accuracy and low recoil in my defensive wepon for carry.
I have had my 5.7 for over 3 years. In fact, I had called FN to find out if they were going to submit this pistol to Calif DOJ before they had been approved. So, I didnt just jump on the wagon after everybody else.
I know persons who carry the Advantage Arms Derringers for self defense. I never was critical of their choice, as I felt carrying anything will always be better then nothing.
My 5.7 encourages me to carry it every day.
I worked LE for a small agency in my area for 7 years. I carried a Glock 26 as my backup for the 22 (Again in appreciation of lighter recoil, despite having extra ammo for a 27 if I had carried that). I never liked the 40 for its recoil and recovery. In fact I had bought the 35 to shoot IPSC in my area to make major.
I also was the Rangemaster for that same agency, and I still continue to train and certify the officers from there.
Im not afraid of recoil, I just profoundly enjoy what my 5.7 offers.

No big deal, I just wanted to demonstrate as well as I can that I just didnt go out and buy a 5.7 for the cool factor.

WS6
03-30-09, 20:28
Thanks WS6 for your efforts.
Actually I own in Glocks 17,35, 24, and a 21, along with an HK Expert in 45. These wouldnt be all I own, just the ones I often shoot.
I am not trying to show u mine, more to say I appreciate accuracy and low recoil in my defensive wepon for carry.
I have had my 5.7 for over 3 years. In fact, I had called FN to find out if they were going to submit this pistol to Calif DOJ before they had been approved. So, I didnt just jump on the wagon after everybody else.
I know persons who carry the Advantage Arms Derringers for self defense. I never was critical of their choice, as I felt carrying anything will always be better then nothing.
My 5.7 encourages me to carry it every day.
I worked LE for a small agency in my area for 7 years. I carried a Glock 26 as my backup for the 22 (Again in appreciation of lighter recoil, despite having extra ammo for a 27 if I had carried that). I never liked the 40 for its recoil and recovery. In fact I had bought the 35 to shoot IPSC in my area to make major.
I also was the Rangemaster for that same agency, and I still continue to train and certify the officers from there.
Im not afraid of recoil, I just profoundly enjoy what my 5.7 offers.

No big deal, I just wanted to demonstrate as well as I can that I just didnt go out and buy a 5.7 for the cool factor.

Well you hit the nail on the head with part of this one I feel. If it is the difference between carrying and not carrying, then the 5.7 is a great round for you.

I guess my whole argument can be summed up by saying that while the 5.7 may not be optimal, it is adequate.

Matt P
03-30-09, 20:51
For me, if I felt there was something better, I would have no issue buying it.
Right now, this is the optimal handgun for a defensive purpose for me.

I have always made the fact I have one for control and recovery, oh, and the 20 round magazine. I certainly realize its limited penetration. Im okay with that, Ill just make up for it with lots O ammo on target!!... Hopefully!...Be well.

Alaskapopo
03-30-09, 23:23
Actually, with .30Carbine reaching the upper echelon of the 1900 fps range, and with some rounds exceeding that, it does take advantage of the TSC. While not as much as say a 75gr OTM, it still is able to put it to beneficial use. More say than basic .45acps and .357mags.

No 1900 is not enough you need to reach at least 2000 fps and then you need a bullet that frags well to take advantage of the TSC in wounding.
Pat

Marcus L.
03-31-09, 10:03
For me, if I felt there was something better, I would have no issue buying it.
Right now, this is the optimal handgun for a defensive purpose for me.

I have always made the fact I have one for control and recovery, oh, and the 20 round magazine. I certainly realize its limited penetration. Im okay with that, Ill just make up for it with lots O ammo on target!!... Hopefully!...Be well.

When we yearn for justification for an investment we usually ignore the 800lb gorilla in the room which contradicts our belief. When it comes to a consensus, agencies with actual shootings to their credit with the 5.7mm, and ballistics experts like Dr. Fackler and Dr. Roberts strongly oppose the use of the 5.7mm over standard serivce handgun calibers and rifle calibers. There is only a small minority of agencies that support its use and they usually have limited field experience with it. The 5.7x28mm has been around since the late 80s and thus far its record has been a poor one.

I would agree with WS6 in that the 5.7mm is better than nothing, but in terms of soft target tissue destruction and rapid incapacitation ability the 5.7mm is NOT as good as the .38spl, 9mm, .40S&W, .357sig, or .45acp. I would even venture to say that a premium .380acp or 9mm Makarov "might" be equal or better than the 5.7mm from a pistol barrel.

Matt P,

The problem is that there is overwhelming evidence from not only field reports of the 5.7mm in use, but from the ammunition designers and experts in the field of ballistics science that tell us in great detail that the 5.7mm is not in the same league as the common service calibers. Simply put, the 5.7mm does not have a significant wounding mechanism to make up for its small caliber size.....particularly from a pistol length barrel. It does not displace, crush, or tear as much tissue as a .38spl or 9mm JHP.

If you are indeed interested in understanding what I am talking about, you really NEED to read and try to understand this document:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

"Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" is an excellent summary on the concepts behind ballistics science. The 5.7mm does not fall into a rifle cartridge category.....especially from a pistol, so this document explains the basic wounding mechanics of the 5.7mm.

Interesting enough, the FBI thought that the .38spl and the 9mm were not adequate for a good duty/self defense caliber......so why would the 5.7mm be adequate? Here's a relatively short briefing on the FBI adoption of the 10mm which also gives important insight on the use of larger bullet diameters:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

It is always easier to seek out information that concurs with your view point and thus get a pep talk. Even though it's hard to stomach, in terms of selecting the best equipment to defend yourself it's important to keep an open mind, gather all available research and evidence, consult the experts, and then make a decision that may negatively effect your finances and confidence.

". . .the amount of tissue disruption produced by the P90 bullet is less than one-third of that produced by a well-designed expanding 9x19mm handgun bullet. . . . the expanded 9mm bullet strikes about three times as much tissue as the P90 bullet at 90 degrees of yaw, and does it throughout most of its path. Thus, the permanent cavity volume produced by the expanded 9mm bullet is many times longer than that produced by the nondeforming P90 bullet. . . the P90 doesn't even come close to matching the wounding capacity of a well-designed expanding 9x19mm handgun bullet. . ....the P90 bullet's wounding potential is about equal to that of the 22 Winchester rimfire magnum bullet." -Martin Fackler MD in a briefing to the FBI(1994)

"....the more recent development of deforming and fragmenting projectiles for the P90 still does not give it a terminal effects edge over a well-designed 9x19mm handgun bullet. The permanent cavity volume of these projectiles are still roughly half that of a modernized 9x19mm JHP. It is particularly concerning that the use of the P90 is marketed as a close ranged weapon system. In close quarters shootings it is especially important to achieve rapid incapacitation of which the 5.7x28mm in all its loadings cannot achieve without an uncanny attention to shot placement. Such placement is often difficult to achieve in the chaos of a dynamic conflict unless a high volume of fire is expended into vital regions of the body." -Martin Fackler MD in a briefing to the FBI(1999)

Lastly, in most shootings.....whether they be citizen self defense, LEO, or military engagements. It is rare that a bad guy will present the vital regions of his body for repeated hits. The 5.7mm is very dependent on precision hits due to its small wounding volume. Targets of opportunity are often brief and in the majority of shootings the COM region of the body is only hit one or two times even though over 15rds were expended. This means that the majority of hits to a perp are not COM, and larger projectiles are more likely to hit a major artery or cripple the perp by cutting a tendon or breaking a major bone. The 1994 Canadian ballistics study, and the FBI 1993 Wound Ballistics Seminar both demonstrated that large, heavy projectiles were superior to light and fast projectiles at breaking through thick bones of the body. In the FBI study Dr. Lane demonstrated this. Dr. Lane is an orthopedic surgeon, he and Ted Hollabaugh performed testing where swine femurs were inserted into 8.5" blocks of 10% gel and then were shot with 9 mm 115 gr JHP and 147 gr JHP loads, as well as .45 ACP 230 gr JHP projectiles. The high speed video of the experiment shots demonstrated that the .45 ACP shots created significantly more damage to the bone and were the only ones to penetrate all the way through the bone and gel block, while all the 9 mm loads were stopped by the bone and failed to penetrate through the bone. Dr. Lane also presented a variety of handgun wounds to human limbs that he had treated. The proceedings of the conference have been published by the FBI.

Even COM hits are not a guarentee stop or kill on a perp. A COM hit that goes through the torso coming close to the heart can take many minutes to have any noticable effect on a determined perp such as what happened to Michael Platt who had his lung shot out and the 9mm bullet rested 1" from his heart. He continued to fight on and kill two FBI agents before he was taken down by further hits to the torso. A small caliber wound volume may have good placement in the torso, but if it doesn't hit anything important its effects will be minor and non incapacitating. 1" off the aorta with a small caliber and there is limited blood loss, and you have to wait for a tension pneumothorax or other condition that takes many minutes to have effect. However, a larger caliber with a larger wound volume placed in the exact same location will cut out a larger swath of tissue and take out that aorta causing rapid blood loss and incapacitation in as quick a manner as possible short of a CNS hit(which is also easier to achieve with a larger caliber). This is why larger calibers have an edge in wounding..........this is also very evident in hunting game. High velocity rifle calibers such as a Weatherby magnum work by using extensive temporary stretch cavity(to the point of tearing it open) and fragmentation. However, such effects are not present in a caliber that generates anything under 1000-1500ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle.

There is a big difference between specuation on a caliber's effectiveness, and actually gathering documentation and field experience with it. When the lives of you and your family are on the line......why would you go with equipment that has "questionable" effects and has a mediocre track record? There is no silver metal for finishing second in a deadly force encounter.

Matt P
03-31-09, 13:47
Marcus, what an incredible post to make. I thank you for your time and efforts. I am in some ways humbled by yours and other efforts to bring me to the light as you and others see it.
Since I no longer work in Law Enforcement, my needs for a cartridge have changed.
If I was easily swayed by others opinions, I wouldnt dress the way I do, much less conduct myself as I do in life.
As we grow up, we hopefully develop a clearer sense of who we are and the value our sense of things has for guiding us through life successfully.
Just as you demostrated with your post, its important for you to in a small way to be that voice for clearer understanding as it relates to this thread, and my responses.
You feel your opinion has merit, and should be easily understood and accepted.
Just as profoundly you feel about your opinion being the right one, should I not feel the same way about my own?
Your opinion is based on a number of aspects, life expierience, education, and possibly other factors.
Trust me Marcus, mine is no different. I may not be able to support my opinion to a degree that you have tried to do so, but that shouldnt make mine less valuable to me.
I appreciate your effort to examine some events and the cartidges used. I accept that if all things relative, and all shots being placed equally, a bigger bullet will just about always be better.
On the whole, the larger cals are better. I have always understood this.

I havent relied on actual events, or other things read, to help me form my opinion with this cartridge.
It came about from my own expieriences shooting, hunting, and other factors.

Im not dismissing what you and others typed, I just have formed my own opinion. I have lived to be 46 years old using my way of thinking. I pretty comfortable being that guy who just cant seem to get it, as you see it.

For me, how come no one else gets it?.....lol

Thanks again. And I do appreciate that many of you havent been unkind to this upstart new member unwilling to listen to the collective minds of this fantastic forum.

Have a wonderful and safe day guys!

Marcus L.
03-31-09, 14:06
Good reply, Matt P. I just like to lay out as much information as possible and hope that people take it in. Whether you accept it or not is up to you......but I just hope that people read and attempt to understand the point.

If the 5.7mm is what you feel like you want to carry, then get yourself some good quality JHP/SP in a heavier bullet weight and practice. Make good decisions on avoidance of conflict, and seize any and all advantages you can on an opponent should things get ugly. If I had to choose between a partner that was constantly practicing good officer safety skills, was on the alert, and carried a FN 57 versus a officer that carried around a MP-5 and was always in the white.......I'd take the officer with the 57.

Good luck with your choice, use quality deforming ammunition, and get to the range at least once a month and practice. :)

Matt P
03-31-09, 14:22
My friend, I shoot about 300 bbs a day here at my shot with Airsoft Gas Blow Backs. I "get to the range" all the time. I can usually be found at the Peace Officers Range several times a month shooting Non-Mice killers.

Maybe I shouldnt have mentioned the practice I do with gas airsoft guns.. Now, I may have lost even more credibility.. If I had any to start with that is!!...lol
But, that topic I am a little better equipped to argue its merits.

If you want to learn more about it, just ask me.. It costs me about .0007 or there about, to launch one of those here in the comfort of my retail business.

Fail-Safe
03-31-09, 16:36
It sounds like you have some varied experience with guns and Law Enforcement.



I havent relied on actual events, or other things read, to help me form my opinion with this cartridge.
It came about from my own expieriences shooting, hunting, and other factors.


You talk about experiences. Not to be rude, but how many people have you shot or seen shot with the 5.7? Experiences show that it doesn't work nearly as well as a decent 9mm hollowpoint and ballistic testing confirms this.

Puffy93
03-31-09, 16:49
You talk about experiences. Not to be rude, but how many people have you shot or seen shot with the 5.7? Experiences show that it doesn't work nearly as well as a decent 9mm hollowpoint and ballistic testing confirms this.

Yes but a 9mm doesn't have nearly the range of the 5.7

Zhukov
03-31-09, 17:07
Yes but a 9mm doesn't have nearly the range of the 5.7

Out of a handgun or out of a rifle?

Out of a handgun, it's a moot point as the engagement distances are short. Out of a rifle, the 5.7 loses to .223/5.56.

Matt P
03-31-09, 17:11
Failsafe are you looking for reasons to purchase one yourself?
If not, then I would want to try and understand why are my reasons above and beyond what I have already stated, important for you to read.
I have not shot anyone, or talked to anyone who has.
Are those the only reasons to make a choice on whats best for a person in a firearm selection?
Even if I went through what my expieriences are, as they related to my choice, would that even make a difference on what your opinion is of this cartridge?
Of course not.
Im not trying to change any of you here in your opinion of this cartridge.

Why try so hard to have me justify my opinion?

I accept the fact it doesnt make sense to you.
Its my opinion for me, it makes sense to me. I dont need anyone else to accept that in order for me to feel good about my choice.

I have already stated I appreciate everyones effort to bring me to what they see as the light.
As I also stated, I am aware of its poor performance as seen by many respected professionals.
For me, there are other considerations then just how well, or poorly it compares to 9mm and others.

Again, my opinion ONLY has to make sense to me, I dont, nor expect for you to make sense of it.

I didnt think you were rude, thanks for taking the time to comment.

Puffy93
03-31-09, 17:13
Out of a handgun or out of a rifle?

Out of a handgun, it's a moot point as the engagement distances are short. Out of a rifle, the 5.7 loses to .223/5.56.

Out of a pistol. I agree that The 5.56/.223 is better for a rifle.

TOrrock
03-31-09, 18:20
I learned a long time ago when to just let people know what they know and not waste my time trying to bring them to the light.

Fail-Safe
03-31-09, 19:11
No 1900 is not enough you need to reach at least 2000 fps and then you need a bullet that frags well to take advantage of the TSC in wounding.
Pat

2,000 fps has never been an ironclad number. Bottom line, the .30Carbine does have a TSC, and according to Dr Roberts, its velocity is close enough to the 2,000fps number that its TSC is viable. Furthermore, the Remington 110gr JSP does frag, and yet gets 16 inches of penetration in BG. Understand, fragmentation isnt what causes TSC, its the velocity of the projectile. And since when did fragmentation become absolutely neccesary? DPX rounds dont frag, yet they are on the reccomended use list.

Fail-Safe
03-31-09, 20:26
Yes but a 9mm doesn't have nearly the range of the 5.7

We are talking about a handgun for carry. People don't mug you from 50 yards away. For realistic handgun distances the terminal performance of a 9mm hollowpoint is supperior. Hell, a 9mm solid creates a bigger wound cavity than a 5.7.

RWK
03-31-09, 23:27
If I was easily swayed by others opinions, I wouldnt dress the way I do, much less conduct myself as I do in life.

As we grow up, we hopefully develop a clearer sense of who we are and the value our sense of things has for guiding us through life successfully.

Just as profoundly you feel about your opinion being the right one, should I not feel the same way about my own?

I may not be able to support my opinion to a degree that you have tried to do so, but that shouldnt make mine less valuable to me.

I havent relied on actual events, or other things read, to help me form my opinion with this cartridge.

Im not dismissing what you and others typed, I just have formed my own opinion.

I pretty comfortable being that guy who just cant seem to get it, as you see it.

I have not shot anyone, or talked to anyone who has.

Its my opinion for me, it makes sense to me. I dont need anyone else to accept that in order for me to feel good about my choice.

I am aware of its poor performance as seen by many respected professionals.

All I can say is... wow.


Again, my opinion ONLY has to make sense to me, I dont, nor expect for you to make sense of it.

That's a good thing, because you have COMPLETELY lost me.

Alaskapopo
04-01-09, 02:39
2,000 fps has never been an ironclad number. Bottom line, the .30Carbine does have a TSC, and according to Dr Roberts, its velocity is close enough to the 2,000fps number that its TSC is viable. Furthermore, the Remington 110gr JSP does frag, and yet gets 16 inches of penetration in BG. Understand, fragmentation isnt what causes TSC, its the velocity of the projectile. And since when did fragmentation become absolutely neccesary? DPX rounds dont frag, yet they are on the reccomended use list.

Really I have never seen Dr. Roberts say the TSC on the 30 carbine is viable. From what I have seen it performs like a handgun round. Cite your source please.
Pat

ToddG
04-01-09, 10:53
Really I have never seen Dr. Roberts say the TSC on the 30 carbine is viable. From what I have seen it performs like a handgun round. Cite your source please.
Pat

First sentence of the first paragraph in the rather obvious thread entitled M1 Carbines (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19956) in the Terminal Ballistic Information section:


With expanding projectiles, the .30 caliber M1 Carbine creates a temporary cavity stretch that is slightly larger than that produced by heavy expanding .357 Magnum hunting loads and may be able to produce permanent splitting, tearing, and rupture injuries in tissues susceptible to stretch insults, such as the liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, brain, and completely full fluid or gas filled hollow organs, such as the bladder.

DocGKR
04-01-09, 11:40
Thank you Todd!

I have been watching this thread with some interest, as the information is out there, yet a lot of folks are ignoring it...

As Todd mentioned, 5.7 mm has a very narrow niche use when used in the full auto P90. If 5.7mm floats your boat, great; however, I have seen and been briefed on way too many failures to trust 5.7mm for general use or self-defense when other better options exist for semi-auto weapons.

RWK
04-01-09, 12:36
...5.7 mm has a very narrow niche use when used in the full auto P90.

Key words being very, narrow, niche, and full auto. And there you have it. Thanks Doc.

Alaskapopo
04-01-09, 13:19
First sentence of the first paragraph in the rather obvious thread entitled M1 Carbines (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19956) in the Terminal Ballistic Information section:

Thanks I did not see that. But I must point to the use of the words "Maybe able to" vs does create. He also compared it to a heavy 357 mag load a handgun load. Like I said it performs more like a handgun than a rifle round.
Pat

Marcus L.
04-01-09, 16:53
Key words being very, narrow, niche, and full auto. And there you have it. Thanks Doc.

Don't forget "in the full auto P90".......the FN P90 has a 10.4" barrel, while the FN Five-Seven has a 4.8" barrel.

DocGKR
05-28-09, 01:57
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=444185&page=4

WS6
05-28-09, 12:18
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=444185&page=4

Either my opinions will be vindicated, or I will learn something and correct a faulty belief. No matter what, thanks DOCKR, we await the results!

Beat Trash
05-28-09, 16:27
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=444185&page=4

All I can say is "Wow!". I skimmed about four pages of that thread, reminded me why I don't spend much time there any more.

Fail-Safe
05-29-09, 12:49
DrRoberts, when you do the testing, will you be comparing the 5.7x28s performance?

WS6
05-29-09, 14:15
All I can say is "Wow!". I skimmed about four pages of that thread, reminded me why I don't spend much time there any more.

You have to understand, with 50K+ members, there are BOUND to be more idiots. If I avoided places just because the traits others possessed offended me, I doubt I would leave my appartment. You have to develop critical thinking skills and sift the diamonds from the slop.

Zhukov
05-29-09, 14:58
You have to understand, with 50K+ members, there are BOUND to be more idiots. If I avoided places just because the traits others possessed offended me, I doubt I would leave my appartment. You have to develop critical thinking skills and sift the diamonds from the slop.

True. I didn't do a good job moderating that thread, and should have cut down on the BS immediately to keep things on topic. It's a fine line to walk sometimes when there's such a huge membership with a wide range of knowledge.

Beat Trash
05-29-09, 17:08
You have to understand, with 50K+ members, there are BOUND to be more idiots. If I avoided places just because the traits others possessed offended me, I doubt I would leave my appartment. You have to develop critical thinking skills and sift the diamonds from the slop.

I agree with the point you are making. It's not that I was offended, more like I was surprised, and maybe a bit amused. My perception was that there were a few individuals who were easily offended and quick to respond to said offense.

Upon further thought, I don't know why I was surprised, idiots are never in short supply.

Zhukov
11-07-09, 09:32
It looks like people are using the horrific shootings this week in Fort Hood to advance their agenda.

The Brady bunch if going nuts over the "cop killer" gun.

The 5.7 fanboys have already started their campaign about "Well - I was told the 5.7x28 could hurt anybody. Guess this shows how awesome the 5.7 is after all".

I would like to know how many shots were fired by this madman and what ammo was used. This whole thing is going to make it that much harder to interject facts into wound ballistics discussions.

WS6
11-07-09, 11:44
It looks like people are using the horrific shootings this week in Fort Hood to advance their agenda.

The Brady bunch if going nuts over the "cop killer" gun.

The 5.7 fanboys have already started their campaign about "Well - I was told the 5.7x28 could hurt anybody. Guess this shows how awesome the 5.7 is after all".

I would like to know how many shots were fired by this madman and what ammo was used. This whole thing is going to make it that much harder to interject facts into wound ballistics discussions.

Over 100 rounds were fired based on one news report I read.

DocGKR
11-07-09, 14:44
I am not sure how shooting unsuspecting, unarmed individuals, who were confined in a relatively small indoor space has anything to do with defensive shooting effects--even a .22LR could prove deadly in such circumstances. As in all shooting incidents with handguns, folks who were shot in critical structures will have bad outcomes, while those hit in non-vital areas will do better. In this shooting incident, there are reports of several individuals not even being initially aware that they were hit, not to mention the heroic efforts of police officer Sgt Kimberely Munley who stopped the suspect despite being shot multiple times herself. Fortunately the traitorous perpetrator did not choose a more effective weapons system than the 5.7mm.

To be sure, there are lessons to be learned here, but they are not related to terminal ballistics:

--Why did the COC/senior military leadership allow this officer to remain free and on active duty even after espousing traitorous and hate filled comments against his country and fellow service members?

--Why does the COC/senior military leadership prohibit qualified individuals from CCW on military installations?

Fail-Safe
11-08-09, 13:03
I saw a report from the head trauma surgeon who initially worked on several of the wounded and got them ready for air ambulance to Round Rock and Temple. He stated the majority of the deceased "suffered from multiple gun shot wounds to the upper trunk, neck, and head".

Ofc Munley was using a Beretta 9mm(even though I saw mostly Glocks and a Ruger 2 weekends ago). I am curious to know what her duty load was. Some say M882, but I was told it was the old 147gr Hi-Shok JHP from Federal.

Zhukov
11-08-09, 13:36
To be sure, there are lessons to be learned here, but they are not related to terminal ballistics:

--Why did the COC/senior military leadership allow this officer to remain free and on active duty even after espousing traitorous and hate filled comments against his country and fellow service members?

--Why does the COC/senior military leadership prohibit qualified individuals from CCW on military installations?

Don't know specifically about the second question, but I think the answer to #1 is obvious: POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

Our enemies are using our laws and sense of decency against us. If someone were to point out the obvious - why is this person making traitorous statements still on active duty? - he will be branded as "hateful", a "racist" or "xenophobe". This usually keeps people from asking the question in the first place, and serves to quell common sense in the bud.

This sense of political correctness undermines common sense, and could very well be the death knell for a free society as those who seek to destroy us do not play by our rules.

Molon
11-08-09, 16:28
This sense of political correctness undermines common sense, and could very well be the death knell for a free society as those who seek to destroy us do not play by our rules.

"Nations die from softening of the brain, which for a long time prior to their death, is mistaken as softening of the heart."

Iraqgunz
11-08-09, 17:02
Spot on.


Don't know specifically about the second question, but I think the answer to #1 is obvious: POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

Our enemies are using our laws and sense of decency against us. If someone were to point out the obvious - why is this person making traitorous statements still on active duty? - he will be branded as "hateful", a "racist" or "xenophobe". This usually keeps people from asking the question in the first place, and serves to quell common sense in the bud.

This sense of political correctness undermines common sense, and could very well be the death knell for a free society as those who seek to destroy us do not play by our rules.

DocGKR
11-08-09, 17:42
I don't always agree with Ralph Peters, but this hit the nail on the head--time for America to wake up.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/o...P9yGrJN7gl7zdsJ31vnJ (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/fort_hood_xjP9yGrJN7gl7zdsJ31vnJ)


Islamist terror strikes US again

Posted: 1:36 PM, November 6, 2009

Ralph Peters

On Thursday afternoon, a radicalized Muslim US Army officer shouting "Allahu Akbar!" committed the worst act of terror on American soil since 9/11. And no one wants to call it an act of terror or associate it with Islam.

What cowards we are. Political correctness killed those patriotic Americans at Ft. Hood as surely as the Islamist gunman did. And the media treat it like a case of non-denominational shoplifting.

This was a terrorist act. When an extremist plans and executes a murderous plot against our unarmed soldiers to protest our efforts to counter Islamist fanatics, it’s an act of terror. Period.

When the terrorist posts anti-American hate-speech on the Web; apparently praises suicide bombers and uses his own name; loudly criticizes US policies; argues (as a psychiatrist, no less) with his military patients over the worth of their sacrifices; refuses, in the name of Islam, to be photographed with female colleagues; lists his nationality as "Palestinian" in a Muslim spouse-matching program, and parades around central Texas in a fundamentalist playsuit — well, it only seems fair to call this terrorist an "Islamist terrorist."

But the president won’t. Despite his promise to get to all the facts. Because there’s no such thing as "Islamist terrorism" in ObamaWorld.

And the Army won’t. Because its senior leaders are so sick with political correctness that pandering to America-haters is safer than calling terrorism "terrorism."

And the media won’t. Because they have more interest in the shooter than in our troops — despite their crocodile tears.

Maj. Nadal Malik Hasan planned this terrorist attack and executed it in cold blood. The resulting massacre was the first tragedy. The second was that he wasn’t killed on the spot.
Hasan survived. Now the rest of us will have to foot his massive medical bills. Activist lawyers will get involved, claiming "harassment" drove him temporarily insane. There’ll be no end of trial delays. At best, taxpayer dollars will fund his prison lifestyle for decades to come, since our politically correct Army leadership wouldn’t dare pursue or carry out the death penalty.

Maj. Hasan will be a hero to Islamist terrorists abroad and their sympathizers here. While US Muslim organizations decry his acts publicly, Hasan will be praised privately. And he’ll have the last laugh.

But Hasan isn’t the sole guilty party. The US Army’s unforgivable political correctness is also to blame for the casualties at Ft. Hood.

Given the myriad warning signs, it’s appalling that no action was taken against a man apparently known to praise suicide bombers and openly damn US policy. But no officer in his chain of command, either at Walter Reed Army Medical Center or at Ft. Hood, had the guts to take meaningful action against a dysfunctional soldier and an incompetent doctor.

Had Hasan been a Lutheran or a Methodist, he would’ve been gone with the simoon. But officers fear charges of discrimination when faced with misconduct among protected minorities.

Now 12 soldiers and a security guard lie dead. 31 soldiers were wounded, 28 of them seriously. If heads don’t roll in this maggot’s chain of command, the Army will have shamed itself beyond moral redemption.

There’s another important issue, too. How could the Army allow an obviously incompetent and dysfunctional psychiatrist to treat our troubled soldiers returning from war? An Islamist whacko is counseled for arguing with veterans who’ve been assigned to his care? And he’s not removed from duty? What planet does the Army live on?

For the first time since I joined the Army in 1976, I’m ashamed of its dereliction of duty. The chain of command protected a budding terrorist who was waving one red flag after another. Because it was safer for careers than doing something about him.

Get ready for the apologias. We’ve already heard from the terrorist’s family that "he’s a good American." In their world, maybe he is.

But when do we, the American public, knock off the PC nonsense?

A disgruntled Muslim soldier murdered his officers way back in 2003, in Kuwait, on the eve of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Recently? An American mullah shoots it out with the feds in Detroit. A Muslim fanatic attacks an Arkansas recruiting station. A Muslim media owner, after playing the peace card, beheads his wife. A Muslim father runs over his daughter because she’s becoming too Westernized.

Muslim terrorist wannabes are busted again and again. And we’re assured that "Islam’s a religion of peace."

I guarantee you that the Obama administration’s non-response to the Ft. Hood attack will mock the memory of our dead.

ak74auto
11-08-09, 19:19
I am not sure how shooting unsuspecting, unarmed individuals, who were confined in a relatively small indoor space has anything to do with defensive shooting effects--even a .22LR could prove deadly in such circumstances. As in all shooting incidents with handguns, folks who were shot in critical structures will have bad outcomes, while those hit in non-vital areas will do better. In this shooting incident, there are reports of several individuals not even being initially aware that they were hit, not to mention the heroic efforts of police officer Sgt Kimberely Munley who stopped the suspect despite being shot multiple times herself. Fortunately the traitorous perpetrator did not choose a more effective weapons system than the 5.7mm.

To be sure, there are lessons to be learned here, but they are not related to terminal ballistics:

--Why did the COC/senior military leadership allow this officer to remain free and on active duty even after espousing traitorous and hate filled comments against his country and fellow service members?

--Why does the COC/senior military leadership prohibit qualified individuals from CCW on military installations?


Doc,

We ( as in the Soldiers) are not to be trusted by CoC to carry on post , even if we have CCW's. We are also not allowed to have knives with blades over 3" etc... It's for our own safety and security.

QuietShootr
11-08-09, 19:38
I don't always agree with Ralph Peters, but this hit the nail on the head--time for America to wake up.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/o...P9yGrJN7gl7zdsJ31vnJ (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/fort_hood_xjP9yGrJN7gl7zdsJ31vnJ)


Never happen. We have apologists HERE, what chance does America have as a whole?

WS6
11-08-09, 20:03
Doc,

We ( as in the Soldiers) are not to be trusted by CoC to carry on post , even if we have CCW's. We are also not allowed to have knives with blades over 3" etc... It's for our own safety and security.

Very true, my friend confiscated a guys knife because it was over the limit and the guy was a tool and kept playing with it in plain sight on-base after being told REPEATEDLY it would be taken if he didn't stow it. I think in this case it may have been for the best though.

As to the "act of terror", I think the guy just snapped. It was personal and not cause-related. If it were cause related more planning would have gone into it and it would not have occured when it did in his personal life. He tried everything (including paying back his medical training cost) to get out, but was kept in the service and was schedualled to be deployed. He snapped. I don't really think it fits the bill for "terrorism" completely. Not that it belittles the atrocity committed in any way, but I don't think slapping the label "terrorist act" on it somehow "properly villifies" it either. He did what he did, and reguardless of what you call the act, it was tragic.

John_Wayne777
11-09-09, 20:27
The stupidity continues:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=953187&page=3



Shooting someone at close range is shooting someone at close range. It doesn't matter if they're an unarmed civilian in a office building who is becoming the victim of a massacre, a heavily armed gang banger standing in your living room or a crack head with a knife attacking you at the ATM. Putting bullets into a human body at close range is going to have the same outcome, regardless of the circumstances that cause the bullets to leave the barrel.

WillBrink
11-11-09, 13:18
I'm having a long drawn out argument with someone who is obviously a fanboy of this cartridge. The arguments on his side have devolved into speculating about when bullet technology might catch up with the awesomeness of the 5.7x28 so that the whole thing becomes useful.

Why are people so desperate about this kind of stuff? They take anything counter to what they believe and make it personal. I encounter the same thing with people defending the HydraShok. No matter how much evidence you provide otherwise, they "feel" like it's a good round and just shut down. I don't care if you "feel" 5.7x28 would be great, the facts are that it's NOT.

Sorry for the rant.

I agree 100%, and some of them should know better. I'm getting attacked by someone with mil and LE background/experience because I questioned his facts about the 5.7 having "assault rifle ballistics" connected to the Ft Hood shooting. Fu%$ me. He's convinced he's right and I am the idiot here. I understand when the 'net jockeys jump on the 5.7 bandwagon, but this is an mil (SOF) forum, and he should know better....:rolleyes:

ak74auto
11-11-09, 17:07
I agree 100%, and some of them should know better. I'm getting attacked by someone with mil and LE background/experience because I questioned his facts about the 5.7 having "assault rifle ballistics" connected to the Ft Hood shooting. Fu%$ me. He's convinced he's right and I am the idiot here. I understand when the 'net jockeys jump on the 5.7 bandwagon, but this is an mil (SOF) forum, and he should know better....:rolleyes:

I am Mil and have run into similiar discussions. Just because one has Mil / Leo background doesn't mean that they understand ballistics. ;)

WillBrink
11-11-09, 17:22
I am Mil and have run into similiar discussions. Just because one has Mil / Leo background doesn't mean that they understand ballistics. ;)


No doubt! Poorly worded on my part. I know plenty of mil and or LE who don't know fps from Adam. I should have been more specific in that this particular person appears to fancy himself knowledgeable on the subject, and considering his particular background, should know better. His entire response consisted of something like "the deaths at Fort Hood obviously prove you wrong." :rolleyes:

QuietShootr
11-11-09, 19:02
I agree 100%, and some of them should know better. I'm getting attacked by someone with mil and LE background/experience because I questioned his facts about the 5.7 having "assault rifle ballistics" connected to the Ft Hood shooting. Fu%$ me. He's convinced he's right and I am the idiot here. I understand when the 'net jockeys jump on the 5.7 bandwagon, but this is an mil (SOF) forum, and he should know better....:rolleyes:

Well, they thought LeMas was the best thing since the invention of gunpowder, and it was proven to be bullshit, so I wouldn't worry about what they think too much.

ak74auto
11-11-09, 20:26
No doubt! Poorly worded on my part. I know plenty of mil and or LE who don't know fps from Adam. I should have been more specific in that this particular person appears to fancy himself knowledgeable on the subject, and considering his particular background, should know better. His entire response consisted of something like "the deaths at Fort Hood obviously prove you wrong." :rolleyes:

I believe Votaire said "Common sense is rarely common." That quote applies to this discussion.

I somehow doubt that shooting a lot of unarmed people with anything more substantial than an Airsoft pistol proves anything other than cowardice on the attackers part.

I could go on about how a .22lr with hi-cap mags would probably have worked as well for this sort of attack, but I don't think that's necessary.

Zhukov
02-17-10, 11:44
From my latest argument with 5.7 aficionados - it's like aiming at a moving target, and the last, great defense they are now using is "Elite Ammo is soooo awesome! Looks at their website - they have uber-tactical rounds that are a death ray. Doctor Roberts is only discussing rounds that are 20 years old, and there is so much better stuff out there now!"

As if EA could redefine the laws of physics...

wrinkles
02-17-10, 12:09
Who can beat the STUNNING and overwhelming writing skills of the salesmen.


Gelatin tests conducted with a Five seveN handgun generated overwhelming hydrostatic shock effects and stunning elastic wound channels.

sadmin
02-17-10, 12:22
dont you love industry buzzwords...hydrostatic shock is this years SHTF for the masses.
I read it in 75% of articles these days. You dont have a bucket to piss in unless you mention the hydrostatic shock.
hydrostatic shock...i cant stop saying it..hydro. static. shock

sgalbra76
02-17-10, 12:33
The 5.7 and 4.6 would be ideal for bunny wabbits. I suppose that if you are dishing out these little guys at a rate of fire of 1000 rounds per minute in someone's COM, then it should do decently against humans.

WS6
02-17-10, 17:53
From my latest argument with 5.7 aficionados - it's like aiming at a moving target, and the last, great defense they are now using is "Elite Ammo is soooo awesome! Looks at their website - they have uber-tactical rounds that are a death ray. Doctor Roberts is only discussing rounds that are 20 years old, and there is so much better stuff out there now!"

As if EA could redefine the laws of physics...

Even if you use the DPX loading that EA loads (as it is the only loading I am aware of that will reach minimum penetration depth) it's expanded diameter is still 9mm FMJ-FP-ish.

Zhukov
02-17-10, 18:07
Even if you use the DPX loading that EA loads (as it is the only loading I am aware of that will reach minimum penetration depth) it's expanded diameter is still 9mm FMJ-FP-ish.

Precisely. Some claim I saw said 75% of original expanded diameter, so in the absolute best-case scenario you've got 5.7*1.75 = 10mm/.40cal

WS6
02-17-10, 19:23
Precisely. Some claim I saw said 75% of original expanded diameter, so in the absolute best-case scenario you've got 5.7*1.75 = 10mm/.40cal

I think the DPX loading would be neat, personally. Not better than a good .40 or 9mm, but neat, and certainly viable. Just not optimal.

It would place it in the same category as LE223T3 from a 11.5" barrel at around 100 yards. I have heard this has been done before, effectively.

dmanflynn
02-21-10, 23:50
Started that route a few years ago. Although the 5.7x28 is supposed to be on the "Must have" list for Mexican cartels, due to the alleged soft armor penetration abilities..

Ill try an dig up the article where a california police officer stated that the 5.7x28 was so powerful that people use it to take lions and tigers in Africa:eek:..............





No shit, Im not kidding. I will try an find it.

Edit: The link to this "dailynews" place takes for ever so I just copied the article

Raids in Los Angeles this week that uncovered an extraordinary cache of illegal assault weapons were prompted in part by an increased use of high-powered weapons in San Fernando Valley shootings, police said.

Two men and one woman were arrested this week after authorities raided a downtown warehouse and several Los Angeles homes and seized 32 firearms, including semiautomatic rifles, high-caliber guns and ammunition for AK-47s.

"We knew the firearms were out there and we wanted to get them off the street," said Michael Hoffman, a special agent for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. "Firearms are the tools of the trade for gang members and drug dealers."

Authorities have noticed an increase in high-caliber weapons in Los Angeles. One of the most startling incidents was when a Fabrique National 57, an assault pistol used to kill big game, was found in a victim's car by detectives investigating a double-homicide last year in North Hollywood.

"You use it on large lions, tigers and bears," said LAPD Deputy Chief Michel Moore, commander of the Valley Bureau.

And in October, police found dozens of casings sprayed from high-caliber weapons at the scene of a homicide on Sherman Way in North Hollywood, where gunmen wore ballistic body armor, Moore said.

"This type of preparedness isn't typical of the San Fernando Valley or anywhere around here," Moore said.

Moore said the Valley streets have been quiet since the shootings. But the unusual weapon choice propelled local and federal officials to search for suppliers of these high-caliber magazines and assault weapons.

Authorities gathered information on gun suppliers during searches at homes of residents on parole and probation.

Undercover officers from LAPD's counterterrorism bureau then bought semi-automatic and fully automatic weapons from a dealer.

Recent killings of four Oakland police officers gunned down by a parolee with a semi-automatic weapon has reignited cries for the federal government to reinstate a ban on assault weapons, which expired in 2004.

Assault weapons are illegal in California. But they are legally sold in several nearby states, including Arizona, Nevada and Texas.

DocGKR
02-22-10, 01:26
If he indeed made such ignorant and inaccurate comments, LAPD Deputy Chief Michel Moore, commander of the Valley Bureau needs to be disciplined, required to take refresher training, and given a new job reflecting his diminished capacity.

Falar
02-22-10, 11:44
From my latest argument with 5.7 aficionados - it's like aiming at a moving target, and the last, great defense they are now using is "Elite Ammo is soooo awesome! Looks at their website - they have uber-tactical rounds that are a death ray. Doctor Roberts is only discussing rounds that are 20 years old, and there is so much better stuff out there now!"

As if EA could redefine the laws of physics...

I posted in that thread too. After they started posting Elite Ammo's test results I questioned why they were using 14 and 15 percent gelatin to bring the validity of their results into doubt. That drew a few sarcastic comments but no explanation. It is like arguing with a brick wall with the 5.7 crowd. They have firmly bought into Elite Ammunition's ad campaign. That whole site reeks of snake oil salesmen, just look at the names of their different loads....rapTOR, etc.

Falar
02-22-10, 11:47
If he indeed made such ignorant and inaccurate comments, LAPD Deputy Chief Michel Moore, commander of the Valley Bureau needs to be disciplined, required to take refresher training, and given a new job reflecting his diminished capacity.

Unfortunately he is just another political minded high ranking LEO that just regurgitates the standard anti-gun nonsense. I was in NY once and the news came on (this was around 2005) and they were talking about an officer that was killed with an Uzi. Hillary Clinton and a big shot with NYPD were in the press conference proclaiming that the expiring of the AWB directly led to that gun killing that officer. Those kind of Chiefs must be eyeing a future in politics as Democrats.

tpd223
02-23-10, 02:40
"That whole site reeks of snake oil salesmen, just look at the names of their different loads....rapTOR, etc."



Hey! You shut your mouth when you're talking about the 5.7, those bullets are magic!!!!!:D;):D

Curare
06-13-10, 16:02
The FiveseveN idea is appealing, but unfortunately does not hold up to the hype. If multiple manufacturers created more effective ammunition for the platform available to civilians, and other firearm manufacturers created competing designs, I might consider going that route.

I've considered the 5.7/PS90SBR combo several times over my G19/6933. One round for pistol and carbine has a certain Old West logistical simplicity. My firearm needs include critter control on my small farm, concealed carry, home defense, and a low light CCW pistol league at my local range.

The PS90SBR form factor would be great from the front seat of my pickup for groundhog duty (where the 6933 is a bit too large), as well as HD. Going with the PS90SBR over the 6933 would also limit my effective groundhog killing range. Going the NFA route would allow me to circumvent the greater than 31 round mag restriction in Ohio for the PS90. The 5.7 pistol would practically be cheating in the CCW league. Having the land to enjoy a flat shooting, long range pistol also makes the decision tough. Unfortunately, the 5.7 is bigger than the G17, and I don't like to carry anything larger than the G19. Combine that with the many concerns over the FN 5.7 offerings, I'll probably just stick with what I have.

Bobert0989
06-24-10, 06:07
Thanks WS6 for your comments. I do have pretty thick skin, but I feel forum etiquette would normally dictate an introduction of me over less controversial topics.
I do admire you for the stance you have taken, and your willingness to engage others in this topic. You seem well versed for this discussion over my simple enjoyment of this cartridge.

Pat, I just put a premium in light recoil and recovery, along with a polymer framed railed handgun. It has an excellent trigger which I smoothed even more.
As for being unrealistic, I guess I just put more of price on accuracy then I do on big bullets going down range. I’m also the guy who hunts pig and deer with .223. Oh, and I have taken many pigs with .223.. The most shots fired with that.. 2.
This to demonstrate I like the concept of accuracy over everything else.

Great info in this thread. Thanks to many of you for sharing it.

I don't like this kid... ;)

Just kidding man, it's all good.

I just realized how outdated this post was, but was utilizing our "site search" feature to research the thought of forfeiting one of my current .223 projects for a 5.7x28 carbine. IF I liked the carbine, I was planning on trading in a .40 for a Five seveN (FDE looks good).

I can't thank you guys enough for arguing this out... TONS of information between the lines here!

~Bobby

Det-Sog
08-13-10, 18:19
As Todd mentioned, 5.7 mm has a very narrow niche use when used in the full auto P90. If 5.7mm floats your boat, great; however, I have seen and been briefed on way too many failures to trust 5.7mm for general use or self-defense when other better options exist for semi-auto weapons.

My first post... With deep sadness, I am going to put my 5-7 pistol up for sale. Sorry about the necropost, but I want to let you guys know that your information is not falling on deaf ears.

Back in my SWAT days, I studied a lot of Dr. Facklers research. After reading your credentials and what you have posted about the 5-7, I've heard all that I need to. :(

Guess I'll go grab another M&P with the proceeds. :dance3:

Thank you sooo much for all of the useful information.

katgirl
08-03-12, 16:28
Thanks everyone for a terrific thread with good information. I have an FNH FiveseveN which was almost an impulse purchase for me compared to all of my other arms which had been carefully chosen for reliability from credible sources and reports. I'm not a 'fanboy' but that pistol fascinates me. I have something in almost all of the classically effective calibers (both short and long arms) except for the .45ACP which I like, but for now I don't have the budget and my other pistol calibers overlap its purpose.

On the minus side for me is the lack of the number of unbiased reports including medical of its use. I'm happy that people refer to the .22lr in a positive way because it oddly is effective (even if only because of a psychological stop) and that no one compares it to a .22mag since they are such different velocities and bullets (people arguing rarely say .22mag from a rifle vs 5.7x28 from the FsN). I do think that the FN engineers did a quality design and it seems like a good comparison would be to a mil 9x19 (which it was designed to replace) or even .22 Hornet or Jet. Alaskapopo - I enjoyed your posts.

Of all the federal agencies who have the resources to test (including live tissue testing) and of all the most important jobs an agency is tasked to do - I'm sure the USSS chose wisely even if for a particular use.

Plus side. I've chrono'd a premium 5.7x28 round which neatly avg's 3250-3280 fps from the pistol. Because of the bullet's construction and BC, it does penetrate some barriers nicely while acting like a mini-5.56 in gelatin.

I'm still on the fence about depending on it, but for the plus side, other than my Kahr P380, it is the lightest, thinnest pistol I have and doesn't print even through a light summer tank-top while I'm able to have two extra mags totaling 60 rounds. It rides excellently in the Raven Phantom IWB and is very accurate. btw - the 60-80 rounds on immediate hand is oddly comforting - who would guess that a short arm could be used for suppressive fire? j/k j/k

I had heard that the USSS might be moving away from the P90/FsN for some of their personnel (and I have seen a number of photos of USSS carrying both which only makes sense for ammo compatibility) and was wondering if anyone has credible information about that.

I'm sure that all of the experienced shooters can tell why I chose my go-to defensive sidearms over the last 30yrs or so (def/tac firearms instructor 20+yrs). S&W Model 13 .357Mag -> Browning High Power Mk III (it's been highly customized and the trigger is as clean as almost any 1911) -> Sig Sauer P229 .357Mag. My P229 is still my current go-to although the BHP fits me like a glove and hides well. The .357Sig 125gr Blue Dot or Ranger-Ts are my choice - I am fast and accurate with them (they really are amazingly accurate out to surprising distances and at 100yds you have the ballistics of a 9x19!)

During the hot season in SoCal, the P229 is thick enough that it often prints through while its in my Kramer IWB (wonderful quality), so I have to go to either the P380, BHP or FsN. (Kahr P380 is perfect for nights out with the girls in tight clothing in dicey parts of the city)

I plan on doing more tests on the FsN and when I finally get some good data I post it here.

Naturally, like all here - if I were expecting trouble and depending on the situation it would be P229 plus either my M1 Super90, M4 wannabee - even my precision tac 30-06 Sako bolt (that's a big hitter 1/4MOA consistent) or gee even my Barrett (yes, I'm consistent at 1k).

Many thanks again for an informative thread. Darn, I would love to get my hands on 5.7 shooting ME reports since stories or even the Ft Hood Section 32 witness/victim testimonies I have can't say what happens inside the body and autopsy photos tell a lot.

Best regards and I hope all are happy and well!

p.s. I don't have experience with .22 mag semi-autos, but if the straight wall and small diameter design acts the same way as .22lr, they tend to malfunction after not-too-many rounds because of the wax/powder residue on the feed ramp and especially the chamber - the 5.7x28 bottleneck would be more reliable in that sense.

Swatdude1
08-03-12, 21:29
I sold my FiveSeven pistol and my PS90 after Doc confirmed what my gut was telling me all along. I thought Elite Ammo was going to be the thing that made me keep the caliber, but it started causing a malfunction in my PS90 where it popped the mag up. Since I already had determined the FN ammo was basically worthless due to not meeting the fragmentation velocity, I figured there was no other option but to sell. My PS90 had the gen I trigger pack so I really wanted a reason to hang onto it.

I sent 50 rounds of the EA ammo to Doc to test in gel and I am anxious to see how it really performs, even though my decision has already been made. I know he is super busy so I'm not sure when he will get around to testing it.

I replaced the PS90 with a Robinson Arms XCR Pistol in 6.8. It has a 7.5 inch barrel and is incredibly compact since it doesn't employ the typical AR buffer tube. When it comes to stopping power comparisons between that and the PS90, there is no comparison.

El Cid
08-03-12, 22:40
I too parted ways with my PS90 a few months ago. I love the ergonomics and compactness, but I rarely ever shot the thing. I had originally bought it largely because there was political talk reference banning the weapon and/or round. If owning it pissed off Nazi Pelosi and her cronies, then I was happy to have one.

As I learned more about how anemic the 5.7x28 is... I knew I couldn't use it for serious social purposes. I traded it for a G17, a G17L, and cash back. Thought that was fitting since it was after all designed to replace a 9mm handgun for rear area military personnel.

Glad to hear you are interested in testing and learning more about it, but there is no way I would trust the defense of myself or my loved ones with that weapon/ammo.

And it's good that you have 60 rounds when you carry it- you may need them all. ;)

C-grunt
08-04-12, 00:59
I had heard that the USSS might be moving away from the P90/FsN for some of their personnel (and I have seen a number of photos of USSS carrying both which only makes sense for ammo compatibility) and was wondering if anyone has credible information about that.


A good friend of mine has a brother that works for the USSS and he has told me that a lot of the agents dont care for the P90 because of problems with the magazine popping out.

katgirl
08-04-12, 01:01
can you described what "popping the mag" did? Like I said, I'm not a fanboy and I am well practiced with the P229 and BHP. I do love Fabrique Nationale quality though. I don't have the budget, but if nothing else, I would definitely take the FsN hunting and do my own autopsy to see what it could do. I know of a number of successful hunts on 200-300 lb class mammals where it performed well. But again, I'm neither arguing for nor against. My only gripe is when people (excluding present company) parrot things they've heard e.g. it's a .22 mag which I consider a really bad comparison.

One thing I feel is the truth is nothing works 100% of the time through 12ga 00Buck or Foster slugs - yet at the same time .22lr has dropped people DRT. You train and practice as well as you can, use what's available, place your shots and what happens happens. I'm debating with myself about posting a part of a video I edited as a poke at my .45ACP-is-it friends. It's not intended to be mean or critical - just4fun, but über-noir.

C-grunt
08-04-12, 01:05
The mag would eject itself from the weapon as if you accidentaly hit the release. He didnt have anything to say about the round itself as I dont think the USSS shoots very many people..... I could be wrong though.

El Cid
08-04-12, 01:11
can you described what "popping the mag" did? Like I said, I'm not a fanboy and I am well practiced with the P229 and BHP. I do love Fabrique Nationale quality though. I don't have the budget, but if nothing else, I would definitely take the FsN hunting and do my own autopsy to see what it could do. I know of a number of successful hunts on 200-300 lb class mammals where it performed well. But again, I'm neither arguing for nor against. My only gripe is when people (excluding present company) parrot things they've heard e.g. it's a .22 mag which I consider a really bad comparison.

The 22 mag thing has become cliche but there were more than a few LE shootings where the results were rather poor. One of the things the FBI does exceptionally well is test and evaluate ammo. The 5.7x28 failed their standards and those two things speak volumes. I know someone who first-hand saw similar poor results overseas with the HK 4.6.

Don't forget USSS uses the P90 for specific tactical applications. More importantly we don't have access to the ammo they do (that the weapon was designed to use). And unless you are issued one by an agency, or you are an SOT with a demo letter, you won't have full auto as an option. Being able to dump half a mag into a small target area quickly "might" make up for some of the rounds shortcomings.

ETA: I'm pretty sure USSS agents in the field don't use 5.7x28 at all - just the uniform folks in that specific role that isn't something you will (or shouldn't) find openly discussed.

katgirl
08-04-12, 02:06
Thanks all for the great information and for the "become cliché" statement - it was nice to see and reaffirmed you folks' credibility.

The mag problem - that would make my stomach hurt, especially since this pistol isn't in the budget category.

I do realize that federal, LE, specops are issued the real ammunition and that it plays a specific role and I have my own suspicions of that role. As I said, I have my favorites.

All is not lost. Duracoat and a funny black or kydex box under the front of the frame and voila! A Battlestar Galactica prop!
http://www.imfdb.org/w/images/b/b8/BSG_pistol.jpg

Even without the box, I do like that color!

Thanks again guys!
btw- If you lived in the right Class III type state which I do not. A can and a fast Varmint Grenade would make for loads of vermin shooting fun :P (also - one of the co-instructors I instructed with was active-duty USSS, the uses and roles make perfect sense to me using simple logic)

Ed L.
08-04-12, 02:56
Plus side. I've chrono'd a premium 5.7x28 round which neatly avg's 3250-3280 fps from the pistol. Because of the bullet's construction and BC, it does penetrate some barriers nicely while acting like a mini-5.56 in gelatin.

3250-3280 fps from a 5.7 pistol?

Are you sure about that?

This is higher than the listed velocity of any 5.7 from long arms. It is the equivalent to the top end of a 55 grain 5.56 round from a 20" rifle barrel.


I'm still on the fence about depending on it, but for the plus side, other than my Kahr P380, it is the lightest, thinnest pistol I have and doesn't print even through a light summer tank-top while I'm able to have two extra mags totaling 60 rounds.

I believe you wrote that you live in CA. Since the 5.7 came out long after the high cap mag ban in the state, you are legally limited to 10 round mags unless you are an LEO. I imagine you could get in some trouble if you are not authorized to own them. It's not a good idea to state something like this on a public messageboard whre there is a link to your identity.

I do stupid things on line also. There is a video of me on you tube blasting away with an HK45 in each hand. That might make me look like a goof to some people, but I am dressed as Kate Beckensale, so no one will recognize me.


Many thanks again for an informative thread. Darn, I would love to get my hands on 5.7 shooting ME reports since stories or even the Ft Hood Section 32 witness/victim testimonies I have can't say what happens inside the body and autopsy photos tell a lot.


Maybe it's just me, but stating that one would love to get their hands on the ME shooting reports from the Ft. Hood tragedy and view the autopsy photos because you are a 5.7 fan does not come across very well.

katgirl
08-04-12, 03:14
I should have worded it better. You misunderstood me. I had a lot of trouble reading the victim testimonies - it was traumatic and I cried more than a little and would be horrified to read autopsy reports of those brave soldiers. I meant that I have the sec 32 testimony, but I was on another thought entirely about ME reports. When I say that, internally I think bad guys (I have a life-sciences background and grew up in a medical family so there ARE times where my interests disturb some but I am absolutely well-meaning).

I goofed big time on the velocities. I was doing a lot of 5.56 ballistics and they got stuck. This isn't the better video I saw, but it's credible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qz7JBECpvI

Fat finger error, I meant 4 10rnd mags. My personality is awfully guilt-driven so my apologizes for my errors and creating an unintended and inaccurate picture of my personality.

fyi and just4fun: a friend of mine designed the costume for Kate Beckinsale's Underworld costume and gave me a fitted one. I posted it once and got insulted and flamed in a way more hurtful than I've ever experienced. Oh well live and learn - if you look like Jaba the Hut, don't wear an Underworld costume!

DocHolliday01
08-04-12, 05:18
I should have worded it better. You misunderstood me. I had a lot of trouble reading the victim testimonies - it was traumatic and I cried more than a little and would be horrified to read autopsy reports of those brave soldiers. I meant that I have the sec 32 testimony, but I was on another thought entirely about ME reports. When I say that, internally I think bad guys (I have a life-sciences background and grew up in a medical family so there ARE times where my interests disturb some but I am absolutely well-meaning).

I goofed big time on the velocities. I was doing a lot of 5.56 ballistics and they got stuck. This isn't the better video I saw, but it's credible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qz7JBECpvI

Fat finger error, I meant 4 10rnd mags. My personality is awfully guilt-driven so my apologizes for my errors and creating an unintended and inaccurate picture of my personality.

fyi and just4fun: a friend of mine designed the costume for Kate Beckinsale's Underworld costume and gave me a fitted one. I posted it once and got insulted and flamed in a way more hurtful than I've ever experienced. Oh well live and learn - if you look like Jaba the Hut, don't wear an Underworld costume!

I'm curious how your "fat fingers" caused you to mistype 2 60 rd mags vs. 4 10 rd mags? Thats a big difference. Kinda like I meant to say I had a BCM rifle but instead typed Daniel Defense and then blame in on my "fat fingers". Doesn't really add up.

katgirl
08-04-12, 05:32
Drat. Foiled again. I know you don't I Doc H? Like SCDR?

Thanks DocH. Now I'll fix tea for the high-risk entry team! :o

Gee, I like the restrictive laws here. Ten round mags help me get smoother on mag changes and the no CCW thing keeps my Situational Awareness tuned up, shivering behind closed doors and voting for fewer liberties and greater gov't control to create a lovely illusory sense of security! I guess I might be pretty frustrated if I weren't one of Diamon Dave's Nim'Jays! btw - every time there's a 1k match you should see all the non existent .50BMGs! Oh and in the 800-1000 rnd tac carbine classes I take? I don't have to sit forever loading up 30rnd mags - trouble is, all of my old pre-ban are wearing out - oh well. Important note: I am not the sarcastic type and I sincerely did not intend this to be that way - just silly.

I actually go out of my way not to get in trouble but weighing that sometimes with a real sense of security can be a battle. If I really wanted to be bad, having a background in chem and physics could get you there fast and, no, homey don't play that game

sadmin
08-04-12, 10:03
Your Ritilin Rx is out isn't it? :D

Shawn Dodson
08-04-12, 10:09
Remarkably similar wound profiles:

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3271/shot0301.jpg

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/22LR%2037gr%20HP%20Wound%20Profile.jpg

The wounding components of both cartridges is limited to permanent cavity and temporary cavity.

The disruption shown in the 5.7 photograph is virtually identical to the disruption depicted in the .22 LR wound profile illustration, except the 5.7 penetrates a few inches deeper.

Both depictions include a scale and can be directly measured and compared against one another. (5 cm = 2 inches)

The temporary cavity produced by the 5.7 measures 2.5-inches. The TC produced by the .22 LR measures 2-inches. The length and volume of the TC is virtually the same for both.

diving dave
08-04-12, 13:29
Well, to add my 2 cents...I love my PS90. I'm a fan of FN firearms and its a cool part of my collection. I have property in Montana, and have lots of varmints to contend with. We have some big jackrabbits up here, and I have nailed a few with my MP15-22, and blew a few up with 223 AR's. I had the oppurtunity to shoot one a few months ago with the PS, and using the 40 Vmax load, I didnt see any differnce between that and the ones I've shot with 22LR. This guy I hit from about 75 yds, and that is the exit side your looking at. I had to part the hair around the shoulder, and the exit hole was the same as the entry. Its a neat gun and interesting round, but one of the last I'd trust my life on.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5328/7420274652_526d6e9cf1_c.jpg

DocGKR
08-04-12, 14:11
P90--the bunny slayer...

481
08-04-12, 14:29
I agree Dave.

A more appropriate use for the 5.7.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCI18qAoKq4

ryr8828
08-04-12, 14:38
I'm thinking of unloading my fiveseven pistol and my ps90 for a scar16 because I don't shoot them much, but I don't really understand all the piling on.
I'm pretty sure no matter what who posts that everyone here knows that the 5.7 round is more effective than a .22LR or .22 mag.

Sometimes when I'm shooting my scar17 or dpms .308 I make fun of my daniel defense, acr, and spikes poodle guns...

Heavy Metal
08-04-12, 14:40
P90--the bunny slayer...

Poor widdle wabbit!

Dr Dues
08-04-12, 15:10
P90 Terminal effects........:)

http://youtu.be/Sh8mNjeuyV4

katgirl
08-05-12, 00:55
<in best John Cleese voice> "Oh I see. Well. Ah. Well. Carry on." <striding out> :) for others "I'm not trying to defend a particular platform or caliber!!!" <panicky voice> :)

Funny, I found a security camera clip of someone being hit my micro caliber rounds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

katgirl
08-05-12, 00:58
Your Ritilin Rx is out isn't it? :D

IS THAT HOW I COME ACROSS? eek. I'll take a vacation from this site. What happens is when I'm replying to posts on a thread which I'm interested, it may look like that but I can type nearly 100 wpm. Sorry for the reduced S/N ratio

Ed L.
08-05-12, 01:07
Crush the Ritalin into powder. Then mix it with the gunpowder if you reload for 5.7mm. You'll find that it really increases the velocity.

Swatdude1
08-05-12, 02:24
can you described what "popping the mag" did? Like I said, I'm not a fanboy and I am well practiced with the P229 and BHP. I do love Fabrique Nationale quality though. I don't have the budget, but if nothing else, I would definitely take the FsN hunting and do my own autopsy to see what it could do. I know of a number of successful hunts on 200-300 lb class mammals where it performed well. But again, I'm neither arguing for nor against. My only gripe is when people (excluding present company) parrot things they've heard e.g. it's a .22 mag which I consider a really bad comparison.

One thing I feel is the truth is nothing works 100% of the time through 12ga 00Buck or Foster slugs - yet at the same time .22lr has dropped people DRT. You train and practice as well as you can, use what's available, place your shots and what happens happens. I'm debating with myself about posting a part of a video I edited as a poke at my .45ACP-is-it friends. It's not intended to be mean or critical - just4fun, but über-noir.

I know nothing works 100% of the time but I always like to at least give myself the best chance for it to work. Hornady 6.8 110 BTHP out of 7.5 inch barrel gives me that chance for CQB.

Regarding ammo comparisons, let's be realistic. Many have bagged on the 5.7 but if we logically look at the mag popping EA Varmitor, which is really a 36 grain Barnes Varmit Grenade, velocity is velocity. The PS90 with this round would perform exactly the same as if fired from an AR-15 with the only difference being muzzle velocity, which would shorten the effective range of the bullet when used in the PS90.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/components/rifle/varmint-grenade/

Now would this be my choice in defensive ammo for my 5.56 AR-15? Absolutely not but I think it might offer respectable performance from the PS90 inside 50 yards.

Swatdude1
08-05-12, 02:26
Thanks all for the great information and for the "become cliché" statement - it was nice to see and reaffirmed you folks' credibility.

The mag problem - that would make my stomach hurt, especially since this pistol isn't in the budget category.

I do realize that federal, LE, specops are issued the real ammunition and that it plays a specific role and I have my own suspicions of that role. As I said, I have my favorites.

All is not lost. Duracoat and a funny black or kydex box under the front of the frame and voila! A Battlestar Galactica prop!
http://www.imfdb.org/w/images/b/b8/BSG_pistol.jpg

Even without the box, I do like that color!

Thanks again guys!
btw- If you lived in the right Class III type state which I do not. A can and a fast Varmint Grenade would make for loads of vermin shooting fun :P (also - one of the co-instructors I instructed with was active-duty USSS, the uses and roles make perfect sense to me using simple logic)

KG, the mag issue is with the PS90.

Swatdude1
08-05-12, 02:32
I'm thinking of unloading my fiveseven pistol and my ps90 for a scar16 because I don't shoot them much, but I don't really understand all the piling on.
I'm pretty sure no matter what who posts that everyone here knows that the 5.7 round is more effective than a .22LR or .22 mag.


No offense, but this is like saying my trail 70 is faster than a trail 50 while you are about to enter a race against 600 class sportbikes.

diving dave
08-05-12, 13:06
Hahaha classic I forgot about that movie!


I agree Dave.

A more appropriate use for the 5.7.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCI18qAoKq4

481
08-05-12, 17:43
Hahaha classic I forgot about that movie!

After you posted that picture of the rabbit you shot with your PS90, that scene just popped into my head. I don't know why. :blink:

tplum68
08-14-12, 14:49
I'm no ballistic expert or anything of the sort but I do have 1st hand experince with the 5.7 round in both a AR 57 and a FN 5.7. Down here in Tx we have quite a few hogs and there is no closed season or restriction on what we can hunt them with. Starting with the FN 5.7, a 62 pound piggy drop in it's tracks at about 25 yards. Understand that he was somewhat on the small side but there was no movement with a head shot. With the AR 57 I have killed 8 pigs ranging from 50 to 110 pounds and only two have traveled more than 10 yards before dropping. These have all been one shot kills with the so called weak SS197 round. These kill have ranged from 30 to 60 yards. Not a great distance but it still gets the job done. I don't try to kill out of the guns range or capability. The FN 5.7 is by my night stand and if anyone thinks it isn't a round capable of home defense then you are sadly mistaken. Sure there are better rounds out there but to say this is a worthless round then you probally have no experience with it. I do have larger calibers but due to injuries I prefer not to use them unless it's absolutely needed. My only use for these guns are to keep pigs out of my garden and home defense. For everything else I use my SW MP-22.

WillBrink
08-14-12, 15:17
I'm no ballistic expert or anything of the sort but I do have 1st hand experince with the 5.7 round in both a AR 57 and a FN 5.7. Down here in Tx we have quite a few hogs and there is no closed season or restriction on what we can hunt them with. Starting with the FN 5.7, a 62 pound piggy drop in it's tracks at about 25 yards. Understand that he was somewhat on the small side but there was no movement with a head shot. With the AR 57 I have killed 8 pigs ranging from 50 to 110 pounds and only two have traveled more than 10 yards before dropping. These have all been one shot kills with the so called weak SS197 round. These kill have ranged from 30 to 60 yards. Not a great distance but it still gets the job done. I don't try to kill out of the guns range or capability. The FN 5.7 is by my night stand and if anyone thinks it isn't a round capable of home defense then you are sadly mistaken. Sure there are better rounds out there but to say this is a worthless round then you probally have no experience with it. I do have larger calibers but due to injuries I prefer not to use them unless it's absolutely needed. My only use for these guns are to keep pigs out of my garden and home defense. For everything else I use my SW MP-22.

My guess, your first post, you'll get a pass for the above comments. Per Docs comments:

"A few large U.S. LE agencies adopted 5.7 mm weapons--after being involved in several OIS incidents with P90's, 5.7 mm usage in these agencies plummeted as a result of the poor terminal performance."

I know one of those guys personally, and conveyed to me was how truly not impressed he was with the performance of the rnd using "LEO only" ammo in full auto. After actual (not hogs, not jello, not numbers, etc) shootings of people not wanting to be shot, they dumped the platform fast.

Me, that pretty much ended any interest I would have in the 5.7 as rnd for self defense, CCW, etc.

Fun plinker, small game, another issue.

I'd highly recommend the sticky written by DocGR on the 5.7 - who's forgotten more on the topic in a day then most will ever know - and friendly warning, comments like the above in bold may not go over well here. Just sayin'...

WS6
08-14-12, 19:14
My guess, your first post, you'll get a pass for the above comments. Per Docs comments:

"A few large U.S. LE agencies adopted 5.7 mm weapons--after being involved in several OIS incidents with P90's, 5.7 mm usage in these agencies plummeted as a result of the poor terminal performance."

I know one of those guys personally, and conveyed to me was how truly not impressed he was with the performance of the rnd using "LEO only" ammo in full auto. After actual (not hogs, not jello, not numbers, etc) shootings of people not wanting to be shot, they dumped the platform fast.

Me, that pretty much ended any interest I would have in the 5.7 as rnd for self defense, CCW, etc.

Fun plinker, small game, another issue.

I'd highly recommend the sticky written by DocGR on the 5.7 - who's forgotten more on the topic in a day then most will ever know - and friendly warning, comments like the above in bold may not go over well here. Just sayin'...

The dislike for the 5.7x28 almost makes me wonder about the standing behind the 5.56x45.

To me, it looks like the 5.7x28 is about the same as the 5.56x45 is at distance in combat. Yet one is shunned and the other generally accepted as "very viable, if not optimal".

Is there perhaps a but more shunning than necessary, and a bit of "taking up for" the 5.56 round?

P90 vs. SBR 5.56, I fully agree and understand why the 5.56 is "so much better". From a pistol, I also agree compared to 9mm, etc.

However, if a P90 is wholly inadequate at 15 yards, how can the argument for the 5.56 be made at 400 yards? That is what I am getting at, I guess. That one thing has bugged me a bit, and maybe I'm just looking at it wrong. Up close, though, the 5.7x28 is certainly nothing to write home about. The 5.56 on the other hand, is devastating (by comparison). My question comes in at...what about the 5.56 at distance? If not the P90 at 15 yards, why the M4 at 3-400?

SS190 at 100 yards through an un-specified amount of kevlar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sh2gPz-KdQ
SS197 from a handgun "up close" (or the equivalent from a P90/PS90 at distance, whatever, it's mid 1600's fps impact)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U40ArShS6M&playnext=1&list=PL058376CF5DCF71AF&feature=results_video
Now, .22 magnum from 1-1/8" barrel...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS_KS1U3aBk
Now, 9mm 147gr JHP...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKC832xZ6RA


Now the 5.56...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55CkeT7qdtM

I wish I had an "at distance" of the 5.56

tpd223
08-14-12, 20:58
At close range in bare gel the 5.7 consistently fails to penetrate deep enough to count on.

Even at extended range the greater mass of the 5.56 bullets allow them to penetrate enough to get the job done (generally speaking).

Even at distance the 5.56 generally has enough energy left to get through barriers such as AK mags, the 5.7 is a one trick pony, it pokes holes in kevlar.

I am also of the opinion that you have less need to blow a guy out of his socks at 400+ meters than at 15 meters.

481
08-15-12, 09:23
At close range in bare gel the 5.7 consistently fails to penetrate deep enough to count on.

Even at extended range the greater mass of the 5.56 bullets allow them to penetrate enough to get the job done (generally speaking).

Even at distance the 5.56 generally has enough energy left to get through barriers such as AK mags, the 5.7 is a one trick pony, it pokes holes in kevlar.

I am also of the opinion that you have less need to blow a guy out of his socks at 400+ meters than at 15 meters.

I agree. I think most folks would have a very hard time convincing a jury/judge that they were justified in shooting at someone in an SD scenario who is more than 15 or 20 meters out.



...the 5.7 is a one trick pony, it pokes holes in kevlar.

That is the most apt description of the 5.7 that I have ever seen.

WS6
08-15-12, 09:27
I agree. I think most folks would have a very hard time convincing a jury/judge that they were justified in shooting at someone in an SD scenario who is more than 15 or 20 meters out.




That is the most apt description of the 5.7 that I have ever seen.

165 yards is the furthest out I have ever heard of one civilian shooting another civilian (both non-LEO) where it was justified. They used a 357 revolver.

rkba01
08-15-12, 10:59
I'm having a long drawn out argument with someone who is obviously a fanboy of this cartridge.
You mean like WS6? :lol:

WS6
08-15-12, 11:20
You mean like WS6? :lol:



I...


...never owned anything chambered for it.
...never plan on it.
...never considered myself a "fan" of it.

...but somehow you came to the conclusion that I am a fan of the round because I refuse to totally dog on it? I try to approach controversial things objectively, if I can, and sometimes that means playing devil's advocate and trying to see if I can "make something work", logically, even when it's not popular. The 5.7x28 obviously doesn't "work" as well as the 5.56x45. However, this admission carries the caveat that one is limiting the definition of "work" as applied to the 5.56 to about 300 meters. Something that I think is very true. You read my last post entirely backwards, if you read it at all. It is more along the lines of "what makes the 5.56x45 so wonderful" than "The 5.7x28 is wonderful like the 5.56x45".

Anyway, I am still of the opinion that it makes a fine varmint or plinking round, although I never plan on spending the money on it when a .22LR does just fine. I think the OIS's, gel tests, pictures of damage to game animals, etc. has proven the point. It is a dismal performer WHERE BETTER OPTIONS EXIST. Yes, it will kill, yes it is low-recoil and blah blah blah, but in a world where people are trying to replace the 5.56x45 with something heavier, and specialized ammunition is in vogue to enhance its performance and lend longevity to the cartridge, I don't think that the 5.7x28 is anything but a novelty for most applications.

WillBrink
08-15-12, 12:00
Is there perhaps a but more shunning than necessary, and a bit of "taking up for" the 5.56 round?



You will note no mention or comparison of 5.56 in my post. I'll leave the 5.7 vs 5.56 conversation to others. As you know, many consider the 5.56 to have it's failings to be sure, but modern ammo solid performers by most accounts, the R&D/search for the "perfect" rnd continues.

5.7 seems like a decent - albeit expensive compared to others of similar ballistics - varmint rnd, and perhaps used in highly specific applications. As you said "I don't think that the 5.7x28 is anything but a novelty for most applications."

I'm no terminal ballistics expert by any means, but I try and pay attention the opinions/writings of those who are and/or those with hands on experience with a platform rnd in combative situations. In this case, lucky enough to have both.

Terminal ballistics is not my lane but no one I have come to consider BTDT type in the field considers it viable in most applications where putting bad guys to sleep is the goal, and someone making statements like "this is a worthless round then you probally have no experience with it." who put down some hogs as proof will not change that for me.

As a civi, engaging targets in a combat environment out to 400 yards less likely than being hit by lightning then eaten by a shark, so an intellectual discussion at best for me and I try and concentrate on most likely scenarios to me.

Alaskapopo
08-15-12, 12:27
I agree. I think most folks would have a very hard time convincing a jury/judge that they were justified in shooting at someone in an SD scenario who is more than 15 or 20 meters out.




That is the most apt description of the 5.7 that I have ever seen.

Bullshit. If your facing an armed attacker they are dangerious even with snubnosed .38 at well past 20 meters. There is no magic distance at which you can't defend yourself. There is nothing written in any statute book that says 20 feet is ok but 20 yards is not. Did your attacker have the ability, opportunity and desire to kill you. Thats what matters.
Pat

Swatdude1
08-15-12, 13:00
The dislike for the 5.7x28 almost makes me wonder about the standing behind the 5.56x45.

To me, it looks like the 5.7x28 is about the same as the 5.56x45 is at distance in combat. Yet one is shunned and the other generally accepted as "very viable, if not optimal".

Is there perhaps a but more shunning than necessary, and a bit of "taking up for" the 5.56 round?

P90 vs. SBR 5.56, I fully agree and understand why the 5.56 is "so much better". From a pistol, I also agree compared to 9mm, etc.

However, if a P90 is wholly inadequate at 15 yards, how can the argument for the 5.56 be made at 400 yards? That is what I am getting at, I guess. That one thing has bugged me a bit, and maybe I'm just looking at it wrong. Up close, though, the 5.7x28 is certainly nothing to write home about. The 5.56 on the other hand, is devastating (by comparison). My question comes in at...what about the 5.56 at distance? If not the P90 at 15 yards, why the M4 at 3-400?

SS190 at 100 yards through an un-specified amount of kevlar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sh2gPz-KdQ
SS197 from a handgun "up close" (or the equivalent from a P90/PS90 at distance, whatever, it's mid 1600's fps impact)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U40ArShS6M&playnext=1&list=PL058376CF5DCF71AF&feature=results_video
Now, .22 magnum from 1-1/8" barrel...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS_KS1U3aBk
Now, 9mm 147gr JHP...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKC832xZ6RA


Now the 5.56...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55CkeT7qdtM

I wish I had an "at distance" of the 5.56

This basically the exact same thing I said above that velocity is velocity. However, due to the case size the 5.7 is very limited on bullet weight and velocity. About the heaviest I've seen is 45 grains at a modest velocity. Most folks would not use a varmit round for self defense. I do wonder what the platform would do with a 50 gr TSX Doc loves so much and what type of velocity it could achieve. Still my bet is it would be a sub 50 yard performer, even out of the 16-inch barreled PS 90. Finally, the PS90 isn't really designed to handle hotter, heavier bullets. I know this firsthand having experienced the mag popping effects of Elite ammo.

rkba01
08-15-12, 13:00
Alright, my bad for putting you with the fanboys.

To me, objectively, the 5.7x28 is just a fancy rimless 22WMR. Ballistically equal.

481
08-15-12, 15:18
Bullshit. If your facing an armed attacker they are dangerious even with snubnosed .38 at well past 20 meters. There is no magic distance at which you can't defend yourself. There is nothing written in any statute book that says 20 feet is ok but 20 yards is not. Did your attacker have the ability, opportunity and desire to kill you. Thats what matters.
Pat

Now, now, Pat. Let's keep it professional.

If you don't like my opinion and/or cannot respond in a respectful manner please feel free to add me to your ignore list.

My comments were regarding what I believe a jury would have a hard time accepting. They are NOTORIOUS for such rigid ignorance.

Alaskapopo
08-15-12, 15:39
Now, now, Pat. Let's keep it professional.

If you don't like my opinion and/or cannot respond in a respectful manner please feel free to add me to your ignore list.

My comments were regarding what I believe a jury would have a hard time accepting. They are NOTORIOUS for such rigid ignorance.

I appologize. I just see that a lot. People saying things about the law which is not correct. Kind of goes along with what I do for a living.
Mass Ayoob had a good article on a case he did where the prosicuter was trying to say just what you are. He went to the range and fired two snubbies at 100 yards and hit the target 4 out of 5 times with the Smith and 5 out of 6 with the Colt. Needless to say his side won the case. Janet Reno was the prosicuter.
Pat

481
08-15-12, 16:18
I appologize. I just see that a lot. People saying things about the law which is not correct. Kind of goes along with what I do for a living.
Mass Ayoob had a good article on a case he did where the prosicuter was trying to say just what you are. He went to the range and fired two snubbies at 100 yards and hit the target 4 out of 5 times with the Smith and 5 out of 6 with the Colt. Needless to say his side won the case. Janet Reno was the prosicuter.
Pat

Apology accepted. :)

I don't agree with a lot of what folks say about this sort of stuff either. I believe that someone, anyone with a handgun, even at a range far beyond their abilities, is a serious threat since they can "get lucky" with a bullet that remains lethal far beyond what most would believe. Just the same, you get a runaway jury like you might expect in LA or NYC and it's an uphill battle that'll likely end with a prison term.

WS6
08-15-12, 16:50
This basically the exact same thing I said above that velocity is velocity. However, due to the case size the 5.7 is very limited on bullet weight and velocity. About the heaviest I've seen is 45 grains at a modest velocity. Most folks would not use a varmit round for self defense. I do wonder what the platform would do with a 50 gr TSX Doc loves so much and what type of velocity it could achieve. Still my bet is it would be a sub 50 yard performer, even out of the 16-inch barreled PS 90. Finally, the PS90 isn't really designed to handle hotter, heavier bullets. I know this firsthand having experienced the mag popping effects of Elite ammo.

I'm not saying the 5.7x28 is a great choice, but the lighter bullets at lower velocities penetrate much better than they would at 5.56 velocity, that every seems to subconsciously compare them at. This is the same as the 300AAC using lighter bullets to achieve similar penetration as a heavier .308 would.


WillBrink, I am sorry I did not make myself more clear when I quoted you. I did not mean to imply that you said (or implied) anything about the 5.56. I just rolled my response all in to one, and if I used "you", it was in the universal sense. 60 hours of work in 5 days doing 12 hour shifts has made my responses slightly less than perfectly worded, and I hope I can get a pass for the time being on any oversights of a grammatical nature. Once again, thank-you for your input in all things, here!

WS6
08-15-12, 16:52
Alright, my bad for putting you with the fanboys.

To me, objectively, the 5.7x28 is just a fancy rimless 22WMR. Ballistically equal.

Pretty much. But albeit with better projectile availability. I would love to have one to play with, but that's just too much money for something I would never feel a need at all for in any situation under any circumstance as compared to something else I already have.

WillBrink
08-15-12, 17:46
I'm not saying the 5.7x28 is a great choice, but the lighter bullets at lower velocities penetrate much better than they would at 5.56 velocity, that every seems to subconsciously compare them at. This is the same as the 300AAC using lighter bullets to achieve similar penetration as a heavier .308 would.


WillBrink, I am sorry I did not make myself more clear when I quoted you. I did not mean to imply that you said (or implied) anything about the 5.56. I just rolled my response all in to one, and if I used "you", it was in the universal sense. 60 hours of work in 5 days doing 12 hour shifts has made my responses slightly less than perfectly worded, and I hope I can get a pass for the time being on any oversights of a grammatical nature. Once again, thank-you for your input in all things, here!

It's all good dude and I enjoy your thoughtful responses. M4C is a great forum in that, for the most part, people can have such conversations, minus the nonsense found other places, hence why I post to an AR focused forum when it's the platform I use the least and probably know the least about!

Altair
08-15-12, 20:05
The dislike for the 5.7x28 almost makes me wonder about the standing behind the 5.56x45.

To me, it looks like the 5.7x28 is about the same as the 5.56x45 is at distance in combat. Yet one is shunned and the other generally accepted as "very viable, if not optimal".

Is there perhaps a but more shunning than necessary, and a bit of "taking up for" the 5.56 round?

P90 vs. SBR 5.56, I fully agree and understand why the 5.56 is "so much better". From a pistol, I also agree compared to 9mm, etc.

However, if a P90 is wholly inadequate at 15 yards, how can the argument for the 5.56 be made at 400 yards? That is what I am getting at, I guess. That one thing has bugged me a bit, and maybe I'm just looking at it wrong. Up close, though, the 5.7x28 is certainly nothing to write home about. The 5.56 on the other hand, is devastating (by comparison). My question comes in at...what about the 5.56 at distance? If not the P90 at 15 yards, why the M4 at 3-400?

SS190 at 100 yards through an un-specified amount of kevlar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sh2gPz-KdQ
SS197 from a handgun "up close" (or the equivalent from a P90/PS90 at distance, whatever, it's mid 1600's fps impact)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U40ArShS6M&playnext=1&list=PL058376CF5DCF71AF&feature=results_video
Now, .22 magnum from 1-1/8" barrel...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS_KS1U3aBk
Now, 9mm 147gr JHP...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKC832xZ6RA


Now the 5.56...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55CkeT7qdtM

I wish I had an "at distance" of the 5.56

If you want to compare 5.56 and 5.7 you have to remember that the vast majority of the loads the perform well are 62gr or more. Those are non-starters in the 5.7 because the velocity would be terrible. The most glaring exception would be the 50gr TSX from Barnes but that bullet only expands reliably down to 2300fps or so. I'm not sure you could get 2300fps at the muzzle from a 16" P90, and certainly not from a FiveseveN, but assuming you could it would still make for an extremely short range affair before you were left with a small, non expanding projectile.

As for if the 5.7 is like a 5.56 at longer range, that statement has merit. The 5.56 doesn't do much but make small holes at extended ranges but rapid incapacitation is less critical at 500 yards than it is at 5 yards.

ETA: Elite Ammo shows 2300fps from a 16" P90 with 55gr FMJ. In my experience the 50gr TSX runs about the same from a 16" as M193 so it may hit the lower threshold of expansion velocity at the muzzle. Even if we assume it hits 2400fps the 50gr TSX only has a BC of .197 so it would be down to 2300fps at 22-23 yards. From a 16" 5.56 you get 3000fps on the conservative side, which stays above 2300fps out to 148 yards.

WS6
08-15-12, 21:13
If you want to compare 5.56 and 5.7 you have to remember that the vast majority of the loads the perform well are 62gr or more. This is because of the velocities involved. Slow them down, and you need less weight. Same applies to the .308 and 300AAC comparisons. This is why a 300AAC medium game bullet weight is a varmint bullet in a .308. Those are non-starters in the 5.7 because the velocity would be terrible. The most glaring exception would be the 50gr TSX from Barnes but that bullet only expands reliably down to 2300fps or so. I'm not sure you could get 2300fps at the muzzle from a 16" P90, and certainly not from a FiveseveN, but assuming you could it would still make for an extremely short range affair before you were left with a small, non expanding projectile. Try the 45gr TSX.

As for if the 5.7 is like a 5.56 at longer range, that statement has merit. The 5.56 doesn't do much but make small holes at extended ranges but rapid incapacitation is less critical at 500 yards than it is at 5 yards. I agree on both accounts.

ETA: Elite Ammo shows 2300fps from a 16" P90 with 55gr FMJ. In my experience the 50gr TSX runs about the same from a 16" as M193 so it may hit the lower threshold of expansion velocity at the muzzle. Even if we assume it hits 2400fps the 50gr TSX only has a BC of .197 so it would be down to 2300fps at 22-23 yards. From a 16" 5.56 you get 3000fps on the conservative side, which stays above 2300fps out to 148 yards.

I have seen perfectly expanded TSX rounds fired from a AR57 (similar length to PS90) before using gel. I imagine you would get at least moderate upset out to about 75 yards, give/take based on the pretty mushrooms I saw at the closer distance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrhfM_CJKZc

The problem with the 5.7x28 is the 5.56x45. People look at the 5.7x28 and expect the same rules to apply to it. If people did this with the 300AAC and 7.62x51, the 300AAC would look like crap. I mean, 110 grain bullets for big hogs, deer, people? What in the world!? But when you take the facts into account that the 300AAC's lower velocity makes that 110 grain bullet penetrate like a heavier .308 slug at higher velocity, at the expense of TSC, you then have to give merit. It works pretty well. The 5.7x28 is the same when compared to the 5.56. It penetrates, and deforms, but at the expense of TSC. Here is a great comparison.

Sadly, I could not find a .223 40gr VMAX/gel test, but I found a 22K Hornet 40gr VMAX test (same bullet, just a little slower). It will illustrate my point well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzGTUGFdLLE&list=UU1UICFxcABkGg8Nj3X0dW8Q&index=1&feature=plcp

Now compare it to the 40gr VMAX slowed down, in the 5.7x28 caliber...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U40ArShS6M&list=UU1UICFxcABkGg8Nj3X0dW8Q&index=2&feature=plcp

See what I mean? You give up TSC/violent fragmentation and gain penetration.

One cannot compare a 40gr .223 to a 40gr 5.7x28. It just doesn't work that way.

The problem is this...how much TSC/violent deformation can we trade for penetration before we are attacking with an ice-pick, or at best, a poorly expanding 9mm equivalent?


I suppose what I am saying is this: If we are going to crucify the 5.7x28's performance as a PDW, we cannot do so without seriously bloodying the 5.56x45's performance past approximately 200-300 yards, as well.

Cannot have AND eat the cake.

I personally do feel that past about 200-300 yards the 5.56 sucks. Will it still make an ouchie? You bet! Will it still kill? Hell yes! Will it do so as well as many other calibers that subsequently have heavier ammunition and more recoil? Emphatically, no.

I really like the 5.56x45, but I don't plan on shooting anything past 300 yards at the very furthest, and so it will work for me. That said, everything is a trade-off. I personally draw the line before I get to the 5.7x28. However, the 5.56x45 isn't exactly far from that line, and once you reach 2-300 meters depending on barrel length and ammunition, for me, it crosses it. Even so, I use "designer ammunition" in my 5.56 rifles just to make it perform as well as a crappy .308 round in certain circumstances and everyone else "in the know" seems to espouse this practice, as well. With the 5.7x28 you need to use nothing but Gucci to equal a 5.56 in certain circumstances, rare and opposite that those moments may be when they overlap performance envelopes.

You will also note that the energy dumped into the target, for what it's worth, is MUCH LESS!!!! than the 5.56, when using the 5.7, with a peak energy transfer of less than 80 ft-lb for the 5.7 SS197 round, and over 400 ft-lb when using the 5.56 TSX 55gr round.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=N49ErkOelxE#!
vs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i27cPs-3HNk&feature=player_embedded#!

This also goes into the "cannot compare them" range, as the 5.7 from a pistol or PDW at a distance is performing at pistol velocity where TSC is much less of a factor than in the 5.56...until you reach 2-300 yards, depending on barrel/ammunition.

Once again, I feel that the problem with the 5.7x28 is the 5.56, and what it has "taught" people to expect from a round in this weight category. They perform completely differently, as I have attempted to outline above. However, at certain points, their performance envelopes DO overlap, and a concession must then be made to the 5.7, or a judgement passed on the 5.56. I choose to pass judgement on the 5.56. At this time, I don't feel comfortable shooting anything past the 2-300 yard mark with it that I want to humanely kill. Conversely, anyone who is trying to tell me that a 5.7x28 pistol loaded with SS197 or SS198 is a highly effective combination on people-size game (or people...generally what kills people well will also drop a normal deer well...) is also telling me that an M4 carbine loaded with 40gr VMAX is a "weapon of choice" for dropping a 200# deer or hog at 400 yards (The velocity cross-over for 40gr VMAX from a .223 from a 14-16" barrel and SS197 from a pistol at near the muzzle). With all due respect to their sensibilities---bullshit.

Fly8791
08-15-12, 21:46
Has anyone actually compaired the legit LE/Millitary only ammo to the stuff we lowly serfs get? Is there really that much of difference in preformance?
I would have a hard time believing that a round designed to zip through armor will do any better than the civilian ammo. I'm far from being a ballistics expert but I am a firefighter/emt and have seen a few shootings (or more accuratly the aftermath) and from what I've seen there isn't anything wrong with more "padestrian" calibers like 9mm and .40 S&W.

DocGKR
08-15-12, 21:58
While with precise shot placement 5.56 mm has obviously caused fatal injuries out beyond 600m, I am not sure that too many folks feel the 5.56 mm is generally particularly effective much beyond 200-300. A combat experienced senior SOF NCO has recently commented: "If it is a precision shot, more than 250 out, and it doesn't have 4 legs, live in a hole, and do somersaults when it gets hit by 556, then I go ahead and move onto the .300 Win Mag and leave the little bullets for other things..."

Take a close look at page 15: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004arms/session9/minisi.ppt; this directly addresses the official Army estimation of terminal effectiveness of the 5.56 mm M855 when fired from the M16, M4, and Mk18. Looks like the Mk18/M855 offers acceptable terminal effects to about 25m, M4/M855 to 125m, M16/M855 to 200m. If Mk262 is substituted for M855, then the Army data notes that Mk18/Mk262 offers acceptable terminal performance to around 65m; M4/Mk262 to 175m; M16/Mk262 to 250m or so. FWIW, the .300 BLK 110 gr TTSX easily matches, if not exceeds, the terminal performance capabilities and effective distances of the military 5.56 mm loads; 5.7 mm not so much.

Basically 5.7 mm starts at the point where most knowledgeable individuals feel 5.56 mm is beginning to offer less than reliable incapacitation effects.

WS6
08-15-12, 22:07
While with precise shot placement 5.56 mm has obviously caused fatal injuries out beyond 600m, I am not sure that too many folks feel the 5.56 mm is generally particularly effective much beyond 200-300. A combat experienced senior SOF NCO has recently commented: "If it is a precision shot, more than 250 out, and it doesn't have 4 legs, live in a hole, and do somersaults when it gets hit by 556, then I go ahead and move onto the .300 Win Mag and leave the little bullets for other things..."

Take a close look at page 15: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004arms/session9/minisi.ppt; this directly addresses the official Army estimation of terminal effectiveness of the 5.56 mm M855 when fired from the M16, M4, and Mk18. Looks like the Mk18/M855 offers acceptable terminal effects to about 25m, M4/M855 to 125m, M16/M855 to 200m. If Mk262 is substituted for M855, then the Army data notes that Mk18/Mk262 offers acceptable terminal performance to around 65m; M4/Mk262 to 175m; M16/Mk262 to 250m or so. FWIW, the .300 BLK 110 gr TTSX easily matches, if not exceeds This implies that they are pretty neck and neck, or emphasis on "exceeds"?, the terminal performance capabilities and effective distances of the military 5.56 mm loads; 5.7 mm not so much.

Basically 5.7 mm starts at the point where most knowledgeable individuals feel 5.56 mm is beginning to offer less than reliable incapacitation effects.
It's kindof what I was trying to say with that huge wall of text up there in my post. Thanks for fixing it :D

What is the consensus on the MK18 and MK318 SOST that was developed for it, regarding optimal maximum distance, if I may diverge slightly from the topic at hand?

Altair
08-15-12, 22:12
I have seen perfectly expanded TSX rounds fired from a AR57 (similar length to PS90) before using gel. I imagine you would get at least moderate upset out to about 75 yards, give/take based on the pretty mushrooms I saw at the closer distance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrhfM_CJKZc

The problem with the 5.7x28 is the 5.56x45. People look at the 5.7x28 and expect the same rules to apply to it. If people did this with the 300AAC and 7.62x51, the 300AAC would look like crap. I mean, 110 grain bullets for big hogs, deer, people? What in the world!? But when you take the facts into account that the 300AAC's lower velocity makes that 110 grain bullet penetrate like a heavier .308 slug at higher velocity, at the expense of TSC, you then have to give merit. It works pretty well. The 5.7x28 is the same when compared to the 5.56. It penetrates, and deforms, but at the expense of TSC. Here is a great comparison.

Sadly, I could not find a .223 40gr VMAX/gel test, but I found a 22K Hornet 40gr VMAX test (same bullet, just a little slower). It will illustrate my point well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzGTUGFdLLE&list=UU1UICFxcABkGg8Nj3X0dW8Q&index=1&feature=plcp

Now compare it to the 40gr VMAX slowed down, in the 5.7x28 caliber...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U40ArShS6M&list=UU1UICFxcABkGg8Nj3X0dW8Q&index=2&feature=plcp

See what I mean? You give up TSC/violent fragmentation and gain penetration.

One cannot compare a 40gr .223 to a 40gr 5.7x28. It just doesn't work that way.

The problem is this...how much TSC/violent deformation can we trade for penetration before we are attacking with an ice-pick, or at best, a poorly expanding 9mm equivalent?


I suppose what I am saying is this: If we are going to crucify the 5.7x28's performance as a PDW, we cannot do so without seriously bloodying the 5.56x45's performance past approximately 200-300 yards, as well.

Cannot have AND eat the cake.

I personally do feel that past about 200-300 yards the 5.56 sucks. Will it still make an ouchie? You bet! Will it still kill? Hell yes! Will it do so as well as many other calibers that subsequently have heavier ammunition and more recoil? Emphatically, no.

I really like the 5.56x45, but I don't plan on shooting anything past 300 yards at the very furthest, and so it will work for me. That said, everything is a trade-off. I personally draw the line before I get to the 5.7x28. However, the 5.56x45 isn't exactly far from that line, and once you reach 2-300 meters depending on barrel length and ammunition, for me, it crosses it. Even so, I use "designer ammunition" in my 5.56 rifles just to make it perform as well as a crappy .308 round in certain circumstances and everyone else "in the know" seems to espouse this practice, as well. With the 5.7x28 you need to use nothing but Gucci to equal a 5.56 in certain circumstances, rare and opposite that those moments may be when they overlap performance envelopes.

You will also note that the energy dumped into the target, for what it's worth, is MUCH LESS!!!! than the 5.56, when using the 5.7, with a peak energy transfer of less than 80 ft-lb for the 5.7 SS197 round, and over 400 ft-lb when using the 5.56 TSX 55gr round.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=N49ErkOelxE#!
vs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i27cPs-3HNk&feature=player_embedded#!

This also goes into the "cannot compare them" range, as the 5.7 from a pistol or PDW at a distance is performing at pistol velocity where TSC is much less of a factor than in the 5.56...until you reach 2-300 yards, depending on barrel/ammunition.

Once again, I feel that the problem with the 5.7x28 is the 5.56, and what it has "taught" people to expect from a round in this weight category. They perform completely differently, as I have attempted to outline above. However, at certain points, their performance envelopes DO overlap, and a concession must then be made to the 5.7, or a judgement passed on the 5.56. I choose to pass judgement on the 5.56. At this time, I don't feel comfortable shooting anything past the 2-300 yard mark with it that I want to humanely kill. Conversely, anyone who is trying to tell me that a 5.7x28 pistol loaded with SS197 or SS198 is a highly effective combination on people-size game (or people...generally what kills people well will also drop a normal deer well...) is also telling me that an M4 carbine loaded with 40gr VMAX is a "weapon of choice" for dropping a 200# deer or hog at 400 yards (The velocity cross-over for 40gr VMAX from a .223 from a 14-16" barrel and SS197 from a pistol at near the muzzle). With all due respect to their sensibilities---bullshit.

From the video, I am curious why the 15% gel instead of the industry standard 10%, and what effect that has. Also, what weight was the bullet and what velocity? There isn't much info provided with the video.

It is true that a bullet that typically fragments at its design velocity can behave more like a traditional expanding bullet when velocity drops. The 110gr .308" V-Max will, as far as I can tell, penetrate less as you increase velocity. The same may be true for similar contruction bullets, like the 40gr V-Max, in the 5.7 but it has been my understanding that the 40gr V-Max still underpenetrates at 5.7 velocities just as it does at .223/5.56 velocities.

Does anyone have a full test with requisite data available for one of the light TSX bullets fired from a 5.7 (preferably one test from a pistol and another test from a P90)? I'm looking for 10% gel, impact velocity, neck length, cavity length, max cavity diameter, total penetration, recovered weight, and expanded diameter?

WS6
08-15-12, 22:39
From the video, I am curious why the 15% gel instead of the industry standard 10%, and what effect that has. Also, what weight was the bullet and what velocity? There isn't much info provided with the video.

It is true that a bullet that typically fragments at its design velocity can behave more like a traditional expanding bullet when velocity drops. The 110gr .308" V-Max will, as far as I can tell, penetrate less as you increase velocity. The same may be true for similar contruction bullets, like the 40gr V-Max, in the 5.7 but it has been my understanding that the 40gr V-Max still underpenetrates at 5.7 velocities just as it does at .223/5.56 velocities.

Does anyone have a full test with requisite data available for one of the light TSX bullets fired from a 5.7 (preferably one test from a pistol and another test from a P90)? I'm looking for 10% gel, impact velocity, neck length, cavity length, max cavity diameter, total penetration, recovered weight, and expanded diameter?

If they do, I've never seen it. Elite Ammunition that loaded it as I understand has a very interesting track record, so I would take anything from them with a grain of salt.

Alaskapopo
08-16-12, 03:06
Apology accepted. :)

I don't agree with a lot of what folks say about this sort of stuff either. I believe that someone, anyone with a handgun, even at a range far beyond their abilities, is a serious threat since they can "get lucky" with a bullet that remains lethal far beyond what most would believe. Just the same, you get a runaway jury like you might expect in LA or NYC and it's an uphill battle that'll likely end with a prison term.

Where you are politically matters more than the facts sometimes. In Alaska you will probably be admonished by the jury for not shooting the suspect enough. In California you may have to let the perp shoot you several times first before you return fire in the jury's minds.
Pat

Alaskapopo
08-16-12, 03:07
If they do, I've never seen it. Elite Ammunition that loaded it as I understand has a very interesting track record, so I would take anything from them with a grain of salt.

I don't understand people who think bullets can do a magic trick. The case is only so big. Its a blow back pistol there is not much power there. You can only push a little bullet so fast with a case that small. The 5.7 is a non starter.
Pat

WS6
08-16-12, 03:28
I don't understand people who think bullets can do a magic trick. The case is only so big. Its a blow back pistol there is not much power there. You can only push a little bullet so fast with a case that small. The 5.7 is a non starter.
Pat

I agree, and can only play devil's advocate for so long. In no way have I been able to logically justify the 5.7x28, and so I never bought one.

481
08-16-12, 18:48
Where you are politically matters more than the facts sometimes.
Pat

Um..well...YEAH!

Those are the places that I can go but won't visit. Means I stay clear of most of the New England states, Cali and Illinois even though I can carry in any of them under LEOSA2004.

WS6
08-16-12, 19:09
Um..well...YEAH!

Those are the places that I can go but won't visit. Means I stay clear of most of the New England states, Cali and Illinois even though I can carry in any of them under LEOSA2004.

I am still sad that the states that I find the "most attractive" in almost every way are also the most restrictive to my hobby. Sometimes I honestly wished I didn't enjoy shooting, and didn't feel a responsibility to myself to be able to protect myself, and could just "not get it" about the right to bear arms, etc. and live happily in some of those (otherwise) awesome states.

481
08-17-12, 00:56
I am still sad that the states that I find the "most attractive" in almost every way are also the most restrictive to my hobby. Sometimes I honestly wished I didn't enjoy shooting, and didn't feel a responsibility to myself to be able to protect myself, and could just "not get it" about the right to bear arms, etc. and live happily in some of those (otherwise) awesome states.

Yeah, I've had the same thoughts 'cept that I've wished that those places would do away with the ridiculous legislation. I know...I know...dare to dream...:rolleyes:

slvrwrx
08-19-12, 00:13
Has anyone actually compaired the legit LE/Millitary only ammo to the stuff we lowly serfs get? Is there really that much of difference in preformance?
I would have a hard time believing that a round designed to zip through armor will do any better than the civilian ammo. I'm far from being a ballistics expert but I am a firefighter/emt and have seen a few shootings (or more accuratly the aftermath) and from what I've seen there isn't anything wrong with more "padestrian" calibers like 9mm and .40 S&W.

I have in some unscientific tests. Of course where the LEO/Mil overshadows the civi stuff is in soft armor penetration. SS197SR won't penetrate level II, but the SS192/195/198 will. (from pistol) Although the new AE 5.7 40gr TMJ load will go through II. All of those pale though in comparison to SS190 that will go through at least 3, IIIA panels, from the Pistol.

Again I'm too poor to shoot gel, but have shot pork shoulders in the past. I've gotten 9" of penetration in them from .45 +P HST, and a little over 9" of penetration (it exited the meat)from SS198 (from pistol). Both left fairly large wound cavities and the 5.7 cavity was far from an ice pick size wound channel.

I shoot the gun very well, and can put rounds on target with ease. I've read enough stories where all service calibers in pistol form have failed to incapacitate a BG where poor shot placement exists. Penetration and expansion don't mean anything without good shot placement :)

Nephrology
08-24-12, 09:08
I actually dont shoot it that much for practice. I hated trying to find the small cases which seem to be thrown with abandon.

Did nobody else notice this? I feel that one of my main criteria for selecting a self defense cartridge is that I can afford to practice with it.... the odds of me putting a round into a human or vicious animal are trending towards zero, whereas the odds of me having to buy another case of pistol ammo approach 100% every month or so....

Maybe I just live in some crazy world where I want to have some marginal skill with the pistol that sits on my side most days, but I am OK with a plain jane 9mm simply because it means I can take it to the range and not feel like I need to take out a 2nd mortgage...

I have known a lot of guys who spend way way too much time over thinking their self defense pistol and caliber of choice, and it seems to me like 99% of the time they are trying to get blood from a stone. You simply aren't ever going to get a Death Ray handgun, and with that as a solid fact, you may as well just go with the stuff that we know works and that you can actually afford to practice with. I'll take Dave Sevigny with a Glock 17 any day over a USSS agent and their .357 SIG.

200RNL
08-24-12, 11:57
I have known a lot of guys who spend way way too much time over thinking their self defense pistol and caliber of choice, and it seems to me like 99% of the time they are trying to get blood from a stone. You simply aren't ever going to get a Death Ray handgun

Wise words, I wonder if they agonized over ball vs conical when cap and ball revolvers were state of the art.

charmcitycop
08-26-12, 21:13
.....

katgirl
09-24-12, 05:16
I hesitate to post since I know that caliber/ammunition/platform debates are so emotionally charged. I one is proficient with any caliber, that is certainly better than nothing. What I'm going to be saying is really about my choices and thoughts and don't want to offend anyone.

2350+ fps is pretty fast (talking about premium ammunition). The FsN is delayed blowback - calling it a simple blowback is like comparing it to a PPK or a rimfire - I don't like blowbacks either. I think that the 5.7x28 is far from a non-starter from the tests I've seen and some very credible friends. I try to keep my comparisons of the round in the handgun to the 9x19 which it was designed to replace. I've seen enough tests, performed some of my own and I think there's some news which might make its loudest detractors quiet in a month or two. My first go-to is my P229 in .357Sig, I'm happy with the 9x19 with the Ranger-T 147gr - but that FiveseveN is absolutely the lightest and most concealable service sized pistol I own including carrying 60 rounds of the best ammo. It is exotic, interesting and very expensive. I wish the trigger were better, but if one is experienced and has trained with a lot of centerfire pistols, using it is no problem.

Out of curiosity, I used a 2350 fps load on the head of a steer femur and was absolutely floored at its performance on it - I didn't have anything behind to see the effects, but will try that later. It not only plowed through leaving about half intact so that I could see a 40˚cone and I just couldn't find much of the rest of the bone. Not scientific and it said nothing about behavior in tissue after, but it certainly kept going.

Again, you get the best platform you can afford (including the ammunition and time to get good with it) and that's far better than being in a life-threatening situation with nothing or a small knife.

p.s. One reason the PDW debate gets so hot is that (obviously) people have and have trained with what they trust - that (esp the training) is fantastic. I for one would NEVER tell someone that they should give up what they believe in and rely upon to go to something else - especially it it is new, exotic and lacks credible (U) history. It is expensive, it is exotic and being at the far end of the classic velocity versus diameter and mass debate - it's perfectly made for emotional discussion :) I hope that no one out there is trying to say this (or the HK version) is the best-thing since sliced bread (that dated me) and they aren't saying that you're nuts if you don't throw everything away to get one. That would be crazy. They are all different tools and this one has a somewhat narrow band of application. (It really is light and comfortable though - hey - if I had a .22lr with as reliable feeding, the same velocity (out of a handgun) and bullet design - point me to it! :D

500grains
09-24-12, 08:42
Basically 5.7 mm starts at the point where most knowledgeable individuals feel 5.56 mm is beginning to offer less than reliable incapacitation effects.

That is an interesting way of looking at it.

A friend of mine carries an FN 5.7 pistol. His justification is, "Everyone who has been shot in the chest with one has died." Not sure where he got that, but even if true it ignores the time that the tiny bullet requires to achieve incapacitation.

WillBrink
09-24-12, 11:02
That is an interesting way of looking at it.

A friend of mine carries an FN 5.7 pistol. His justification is, "Everyone who has been shot in the chest with one has died." Not sure where he got that, but even if true it ignores the time that the tiny bullet requires to achieve incapacitation.

And that's the point. .22 Long kills people all the time. Usually after they beat the person to death with their own empty gun, and bleed out a mile down the road. :D

But seriously, time to incapacitation and death are two different issues which many are unable to fathom.

Had a doc friend carry a .25, because he told me he saw many dead people with .25 in them, and equated their deaths with incapacitation. He of course had no idea how long it took nor what mayhem and violence those dead people achieved prior to their demise.

I tried to explain that to him, but he carries his trusty (POS) .25 to this day.

Altair
09-24-12, 11:22
Basically 5.7 mm starts at the point where most knowledgeable individuals feel 5.56 mm is beginning to offer less than reliable incapacitation effects.


That is an interesting way of looking at it.

A friend of mine carries an FN 5.7 pistol. His justification is, "Everyone who has been shot in the chest with one has died." Not sure where he got that, but even if true it ignores the time that the tiny bullet requires to achieve incapacitation.

This is at the very heart of the problem with 5.7's capability. For fragmenting ammunition we've learned that you have to have bullets at the heavy end of .224" caliber to achieve adequate penetration. It is entirely possible to use lighter bullets in expanding designs (the 50gr BH TSX come to mind) and achieve good terminal performance but the 5.7 can't push them to anywhere near the velocity a .223/5.56 can.

I do wonder if there was a 40gr TSX made for the 5.7 that was tailored to expand at the velocity range the 5.7 is capable of what would be possible. Barnes has done this for the 300BLK and 7.62x40 so I'm sure it is possible. It still won't make the 5.7 a .223/5.56 but it would most likely maximize the potential of the little round and I'd be interested to see the results.

The big issue would be penetration. A 40gr round that expands quickly at low velocity may not reach adequate penetration but if it is possible the TSX would be the most likely to make it work.

ETA: EA's sight shows its 40gr ammo going 2750fps from a P90 barrel and 2100fps from a pistol barrel. 2750fps, if attainable with a 40gr Barnes, might be useful but it will be impossible to tailor a single bullet to work well at both velocity extremes. I just can't see a 40gr bullet at 2100fps to be of much use for anything but very small game. I'll stay open minded and look at any results available, but as it stands I cannot recommend to anyone the use of a 5.7 for anything but novelty.

DocGKR
09-24-12, 13:23
"Everyone who has been shot in the chest with one has died."

This is not a true statement.

FeltaDorce
09-24-12, 20:28
"Everyone who drinks water has died...... eventually." Water must be the most dangerous thing in the world. I am going to buy a squirt gun.


On a serious note, I KNOW that the 5.7x28mm is a joke (ballistically) because California hasn't banned it yet. If it was such a lethal improvement over every other handgun known to man, you could bet that Pelosi and gang would have black listed it.

S. Galbraith
09-24-12, 20:42
I hesitate to post since I know that caliber/ammunition/platform debates are so emotionally charged. I one is proficient with any caliber, that is certainly better than nothing. What I'm going to be saying is really about my choices and thoughts and don't want to offend anyone.

2350+ fps is pretty fast (talking about premium ammunition). The FsN is delayed blowback - calling it a simple blowback is like comparing it to a PPK or a rimfire - I don't like blowbacks either. I think that the 5.7x28 is far from a non-starter from the tests I've seen and some very credible friends. I try to keep my comparisons of the round in the handgun to the 9x19 which it was designed to replace. I've seen enough tests, performed some of my own and I think there's some news which might make its loudest detractors quiet in a month or two. My first go-to is my P229 in .357Sig, I'm happy with the 9x19 with the Ranger-T 147gr - but that FiveseveN is absolutely the lightest and most concealable service sized pistol I own including carrying 60 rounds of the best ammo. It is exotic, interesting and very expensive. I wish the trigger were better, but if one is experienced and has trained with a lot of centerfire pistols, using it is no problem.

Out of curiosity, I used a 2350 fps load on the head of a steer femur and was absolutely floored at its performance on it - I didn't have anything behind to see the effects, but will try that later. It not only plowed through leaving about half intact so that I could see a 40˚cone and I just couldn't find much of the rest of the bone. Not scientific and it said nothing about behavior in tissue after, but it certainly kept going.

Again, you get the best platform you can afford (including the ammunition and time to get good with it) and that's far better than being in a life-threatening situation with nothing or a small knife.

p.s. One reason the PDW debate gets so hot is that (obviously) people have and have trained with what they trust - that (esp the training) is fantastic. I for one would NEVER tell someone that they should give up what they believe in and rely upon to go to something else - especially it it is new, exotic and lacks credible (U) history. It is expensive, it is exotic and being at the far end of the classic velocity versus diameter and mass debate - it's perfectly made for emotional discussion :) I hope that no one out there is trying to say this (or the HK version) is the best-thing since sliced bread (that dated me) and they aren't saying that you're nuts if you don't throw everything away to get one. That would be crazy. They are all different tools and this one has a somewhat narrow band of application. (It really is light and comfortable though - hey - if I had a .22lr with as reliable feeding, the same velocity (out of a handgun) and bullet design - point me to it! :D

Velocity only does much good when a projectile is traveling at rifle velocities, and even then it still is dependent on a good wounding mechanism such as expansion(hole size does matter), or rapid yaw and fragmentation. This has been documented quite well in actually shootings by the FBI and IWBA.

So, yes calibers such as 9mm+P+, .357sig, or 10mm Auto are useful in tackling barriers you may encounter.....but they don't do much better than standard service calibers when it comes to terminal effects on a person. The 5.7mm was only developed as a military caliber for piercing body armor and to achieve a flatter trajectory at longer ranges. The PDWs have been fielded around the world in war since the 1990s, and as appealing as the concept and caliber are.......they just keep getting shelved for more effective equipment.

Swatdude1
09-25-12, 00:34
This is at the very heart of the problem with 5.7's capability. For fragmenting ammunition we've learned that you have to have bullets at the heavy end of .224" caliber to achieve adequate penetration. It is entirely possible to use lighter bullets in expanding designs (the 50gr BH TSX come to mind) and achieve good terminal performance but the 5.7 can't push them to anywhere near the velocity a .223/5.56 can.

I do wonder if there was a 40gr TSX made for the 5.7 that was tailored to expand at the velocity range the 5.7 is capable of what would be possible. Barnes has done this for the 300BLK and 7.62x40 so I'm sure it is possible. It still won't make the 5.7 a .223/5.56 but it would most likely maximize the potential of the little round and I'd be interested to see the results.

The big issue would be penetration. A 40gr round that expands quickly at low velocity may not reach adequate penetration but if it is possible the TSX would be the most likely to make it work.

ETA: EA's sight shows its 40gr ammo going 2750fps from a P90 barrel and 2100fps from a pistol barrel. 2750fps, if attainable with a 40gr Barnes, might be useful but it will be impossible to tailor a single bullet to work well at both velocity extremes. I just can't see a 40gr bullet at 2100fps to be of much use for anything but very small game. I'll stay open minded and look at any results available, but as it stands I cannot recommend to anyone the use of a 5.7 for anything but novelty.

The Barnes 45 gr TSX bullet sold as the Xterminator was probably the best hope the platform had. Sadly, it caused numerous malfunctions in my PS90, popping the magazine out. Lisa at EA ignored all my emails so I wound up giving 50 rounds to Doc for testing and sold the rest on GB.

wrinkles
09-25-12, 11:27
And that's the point. .22 Long kills people all the time. Usually after they beat the person to death with their own empty gun, and bleed out a mile down the road. :D

But seriously, time to incapacitation and death are two different issues which many are unable to fathom.

Had a doc friend carry a .25, because he told me he saw many dead people with .25 in them, and equated their deaths with incapacitation. He of course had no idea how long it took nor what mayhem and violence those dead people achieved prior to their demise.

I tried to explain that to him, but he carries his trusty (POS) .25 to this day.

There was a incident in our town several years ago. These two guys got into an argument. The first guy (shooter) pulled out a .25 and shot the other guy (knife) 4 times COM. The knife guy died but not before stabbing the shooter 25 times and breaking the knife blade in the shooter skull. Shooter died first. The .25 cal kills.

WillBrink
09-25-12, 12:23
There was a incident in our town several years ago. These two guys got into an argument. The first guy (shooter) pulled out a .25 and shot the other guy (knife) 4 times COM. The knife guy died but not before stabbing the shooter 25 times and breaking the knife blade in the shooter skull. Shooter died first. The .25 cal kills.

Not sure why that's so difficult for so many people to fathom, especially with fairly common examples as the above.

S. Galbraith
09-25-12, 14:22
Not sure why that's so difficult for so many people to fathom, especially with fairly common examples as the above.

It's amazing how many shootings we see with the .22lr, and .25acp. None of them go well for the shooter.....

Altair
09-26-12, 01:12
Not sure why that's so difficult for so many people to fathom, especially with fairly common examples as the above.

The answer you seek can be found here: Willful Ignorance (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Willful_ignorance)

WS6
09-26-12, 03:17
It's amazing how many shootings we see with the .22lr, and .25acp. None of them go well for the shooter.....

Wrong.
http://www.wlwt.com/news/local-news/news-northern-kentucky/Boone-County-homeowner-shoots-kills-intruder/-/13608792/16463942/-/b33lt6z/-/index.html
Apparently the .22 is under-rated, and is all you will ever need. Never mind the other 99 shootings where it didn't work so well. This ONE totally validates it.:rolleyes:

jstone
09-26-12, 03:54
I think there is more to it than willful ignorance. I think it is stupidity. It has to be for people to continue to argue the facts. It has not only been studied and stated by the preeminent ballistician (docgkr) in the field. It has also been proven in real life OIS. where officers armed with weapons that fire 5.7x28 failed to put down assailants without multiple shots that would not be required from a capable cartridge.

These people shoot pork shoulders, and cow femurs. This obviously must mean that all the work that DOCGKR does is a waste of time. Instead of all the work that DOCGKR does making gel blocks and calibration of the blocks should be replaced with pork shoulders and cow femurs. It has to be stupidity.

The majority of people think that if you shoot someone it is like tv they just die instantly. I have seen people carrying 22mag(multiple) and a 25 cal derringer(one). They all say if you shoot someone they Will stop what they are doing.

I do not think it can be any sort of ignorance unless they do not have the ability to comprehend what they hear and read. If they can comprehend what they hear and read it is stupidity. Stupid hurts, and i hope they do not find out how bad it hurts depending on that 22mag like joke the 5.7.

zmortis
02-05-13, 13:54
Personally I'm not getting a AR 57 because of the terminal ballistic characteristics. I have a pistol chambered in .40 S&W for short range, an AR 15 in 5.56 NATO for medium range, and a Mosin Nagant in 7.62X54R for longer range if terminal ballistic performance is the desired quality. Any of them can reliably kill/incapacitate with proper short placement at their optimal performance distances.

I'm personally getting a suppressed CQB AR in 5.7x28 because it should be a blast to run on the range at short to intermediate distances. If it is the only weapon on hand when the SHTF, then as many have said before, the best weapon is the one you have available. I would try to dump 20-50 rounds on my target's heads and chests, and then change mags.

If given a choice based on the scenario, I would more likely grab a different weapon (including my 12 gauge) before using the 5.7 as a PD weapon.

I will say however, that the ballistic discussion here has been fascinating, and I appreciate all the research/work put into assembling the related performance facts.

Carry on.

slvrwrx
02-05-13, 14:11
I would try to dump 20-50 rounds on my target's heads and chests, and then change mags.


are you shooting someone with a bb gun?

zmortis
02-05-13, 15:08
are you shooting someone with a bb gun?

I would be shooting an attacker that way when the only gun in my possession was the AR 57. As I said it would not be my first choice of SHTF weapon. If given the choice, then I would use any of the other ammo types mentioned ealier in my post from my personal arsenal for the suggested optimal weapon range.

It doesn't matter what the attacker is using. You can only defend yourself with the weapon(s) you have. I personally have several weapons to choose from at home. Each is useful in a particular scenario, including the bladed weapons. If all you have is a knife against an attacker, then you'll either use the knife, you'll try to run/evade, or you'll submit to the attacker. There are not a whole lot of other options when someone wants you dead and has the means to do so.

I serously doubt there is too many here willing to say that a chest/face full of 5.7x28 rounds is something most people will willingly risk even given the lack of immediate kill power of the round. As noted many other places even a .22lr can be fatal/disabling in one shot with proper shot placement (base of the skull/top of the spinal column for example). Not even a .50 BMG is immediately fatal in one shot with improper shot placement (pinky finger for example).

Terminal balistics are all dependent upon shot placement in terminal locations. The better the terminal performance characteristic of a round, then the larger the terminal hit zone becomes upon a human target. If your "threat scenario" includes a pack of close quarters knife wielding PCP enraged thugs bent on killing someone, then even a .45ACP may not be adequate to the task of defending someone from fatal harm.

We could spend days on end discussing "possible" scenarios where terminal balistics of a particular round/weapon platform may or may not do the job in a set of scenarios. When push comes to shove, the weapon(s) and ammo(s) you have is what you have to use. You have to decide to either attempt to fight with that, run from your attacker, or submit to their will.

Alaskapopo
02-05-13, 15:15
Personally I'm not getting a AR 57 because of the terminal ballistic characteristics. I have a pistol chambered in .40 S&W for short range, an AR 15 in 5.56 NATO for medium range, and a Mosin Nagant in 7.62X54R for longer range if terminal ballistic performance is the desired quality. Any of them can reliably kill/incapacitate with proper short placement at their optimal performance distances.

I'm personally getting a suppressed CQB AR in 5.7x28 because it should be a blast to run on the range at short to intermediate distances. If it is the only weapon on hand when the SHTF, then as many have said before, the best weapon is the one you have available. I would try to dump 20-50 rounds on my target's heads and chests, and then change mags.

If given a choice based on the scenario, I would more likely grab a different weapon (including my 12 gauge) before using the 5.7 as a PD weapon.

I will say however, that the ballistic discussion here has been fascinating, and I appreciate all the research/work put into assembling the related performance facts.

Carry on.

For home defense the AR is a better choice than your pistol. Yes shot placement is key however if you have a round that can not penetrate deeply enough and makes a small wound channel your not going to do that well.
Pat

zmortis
02-05-13, 15:29
Also an interesting article "One-Shot Drops Surviving the Myth" can be found on page 14:
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/2004-pdfs/oct04leb.pdf

slvrwrx
02-05-13, 17:33
I would be shooting an attacker that way when the only gun in my possession was the AR 57.

I serously doubt there is too many here willing to say that a chest/face full of 5.7x28 rounds is something most people will willingly risk even given the lack of immediate kill power of the round.

Terminal balistics are all dependent upon shot placement in terminal locations. The better the terminal performance characteristic of a round, then the larger the terminal hit zone becomes upon a human target. If your "threat scenario" includes a pack of close quarters knife wielding PCP enraged thugs bent on killing someone, then even a .45ACP may not be adequate to the task of defending someone from fatal harm.

We could spend days on end discussing "possible" scenarios where terminal balistics of a particular round/weapon platform may or may not do the job in a set of scenarios. When push comes to shove, the weapon(s) and ammo(s) you have is what you have to use. You have to decide to either attempt to fight with that, run from your attacker, or submit to their will.

Certainly not all variables can be looked at, but 20-50 rounds of 5.7 from any the available platforms would be overkill (given good shot placement). This round is not a death ray, and is not a .177 bb gun.

I agree, use what you have available and make it count. We've all read numerous accounts of failed stops with all calibers and in all quantities.

Alaskapopo
02-05-13, 17:37
Certainly not all variables can be looked at, but 20-50 rounds of 5.7 from any the available platforms would be overkill (given good shot placement). This round is not a death ray, and is not a .177 bb gun.

I agree, use what you have available and make it count. We've all read numerous accounts of failed stops with all calibers and in all quantities.

Its much closer to a .177 BB gun than a death ray.
Pat

slvrwrx
02-05-13, 17:47
Its much closer to a .177 BB gun than a death ray.
Pat

coming from the same guy who is glad they are illegal (cleaned up reference) because they will pierce his level IIIA vest, but somehow are equated to a .177bb. ;)

Alaskapopo
02-05-13, 18:07
coming from the same guy who thinks they should be banned because they will pierce his level IIIA vest, but somehow are equated to a .177bb. ;)

Do you lie like this all the time? Where did I say any gun should be banned?
Pat

slvrwrx
02-05-13, 18:27
Do you lie like this all the time? Where did I say any gun should be banned?
Pat

clean my ducks up. You're right you didn't say banned, you said illegal (none of the 5.7x28mm catridges are illegal to own):


I am glad that stuff is illegal thanks to this round being available in a pistol. Last thing I need to worry about is a small concealable pistol being able to fire a round that will penetrate my vest.
Pat

Koshinn
02-05-13, 18:28
clean my ducks up. You're right you didn't say banned, you said illegal (none of the 5.7x28mm catridges are illegal to own):

He never said a gun should be illegal either. He was talking about ammo. Pretty sure there are illegal 5.7 rounds, as all "AP" pistol ammo is illegal.

slvrwrx
02-05-13, 18:29
He never said a gun should be illegal either. He was talking about ammo.

Yes as I referenced his quote..