View Full Version : Don’t shoot the photographer
LOL
I will admit MFingar's art is awesome.
NCPatrolAR
06-22-09, 10:41
I don't have much to say in regards to the photographer incident, but I do have something to say about this April 2005 incident. What AAR are we talking about? The one James wrote or the company?
I have never trained with TR, but bumped into James at the Embassy pool once way back in 2005 I think.
Since this event happen over four years ago, I have read on the internet many armchair quarterbacks talking about what he did wrong and costing people their lives. I was not on this mission, but once sat in on a detailed debrief by Mark Collen, the minimi gunner seen in the video. I don't recall him saying anything negative about James, other than the fact that he stalled the car and that James might not have been able to see the shooter from his location.
Unless you have been on the receiving end of a PKM, you don't have a clue what it is like. I don't care how many stress fire push ups and laps you ran in your "training course", it don't even approach what happens when Russian hardware is raining down on your ass. I have been in three major contacts involving PKM fire directed at my dog tags. I was wounded once. Not a big deal and I am not a hero by a long shot. I just did my job.
Bottom line is that it sucks and that unless someone turns into a quivering bowl of jello and refuses to act, I have no problems with someone's actions if they attempt to adhere to the basic drills and SOPs. Granted, James may have moved away from the vehicle to a position that he could not see and engage the enemy. At least he did something. Was it the right thing to do? Maybe not, but at least he acted.
Other people on the team may have a different story. I respect that.
Route Irish was a shit storm during this time. The week prior to this incident, my vehicle was blown up by a VBIED about a mile from this attack. Once again, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I was still licking my wounds from that one when James' team was hit, AND my company was hit again in the same week, resulting in our first fatality. OK, James did shoot up a vehicle and kill a driver that was approaching their location after the incident. The driver didn't turn out to be a threat, just an ignorant Iraqi who died. In those days, you had to act quickly. At least he was skilled enough to be able to stop the driver.
Getting back to the main incident, I seem to remember that the majority of the injuries to those in James' vehicle were the result in the initial volley of fire. James admits he screwed the pooch, but when PKM rounds are going through your soft skin vehicle, you tend to forget things. The real heroes are those who can rise above the situation. James was not a hero, nor was he a villain.
My point is that these types of incidents really suck and people make mistakes. It chaps my ass to read about people trying to critique someone's actions based on videos and AARs, yet they have never been in someone's sight picture other than an airsoft pistol.
This has pretty much been my view on the entire Yeager in Iraq issue. If he had claimed he hadn't made mistakes my view may differ. I think people that continue to bring it up are doing a true disservice to this topic.
I've taken 6 classes from Tactical Response and used to spend a fair amount of time on GOTX. My association with them ended when I noticed the questionable associations occuring, the shift in course material from a defensive nature to more of a warrior camp one, the blatant commericialization of the website, and the realization of how close minded people were there. I think what we are seeing now is Yeager and company reaping what they've sewn.
NCPatrolAR
06-22-09, 11:53
according to the TOS thread Jay has done an interview where he states this wasn't a training drill; that he just wanted some downrange photos.
What we see in the TR videos is a mindset that bullets flying right beside somebody is no big deal because, after all, we drive inches from other cars so what's the big deal? That, ladies and gentlemen, is messed up.
The whole "we drive inches from other cars everyday" argument is pure bullshit.
The argument is insane because a $20 WalMart tripod and/or a $20 remote switch makes the risk completely unneccesary. The photographer dropped some serious coinage on his SLR camera, he can certainly spring for one, if he doesnt already have them. Even if he doesnt have a remote ALL SLRs have timers that would've allowed him to focus, set timer, and leave.
CarlosDJackal
06-22-09, 13:33
according to the TOS thread Jay has done an interview where he states this wasn't a training drill; that he just wanted some downrange photos.
This was pretty obvious if you watch the shooter in blue (the one who caused a malfunction because he was limpwristing) from the first video. That shooter does not shoot right away obviously because he was posing for the so-called "Instructor" at first and did not start shooting until well after the others.
You and I attended the same "Fighting Rifle" class all those years ago. That was pretty much the last TR class I attended because of the same reasons you cited (above).
It's a shame that James and his crew have embraced something they vehemently opposed during their initial years in business: DOGMA.
From Joost Elffers fictitious "48 Laws of Power"
Law 27 - Play on People’s Need to Believe to Create a Cult-like Following
People have an overwhelming desire to believe in something. Become the focal point of such desire by offering them a cause, a new faith to follow. Keep your words vague but full of promise; emphasize enthusiasm over rationality and clear thinking. Give your new disciples rituals to perform, ask them to make sacrifices on your behalf. In the absence of organized religion and grand causes, your new belief system will bring you untold power.
Sound familiar?
Business_Casual
06-22-09, 15:05
This was pretty obvious if you watch the shooter in blue (the one who caused a malfunction because he was limpwristing) from the first video. That shooter does not shoot right away obviously because he was posing for the so-called "Instructor" at first and did not start shooting until well after the others.
You and I attended the same "Fighting Rifle" class all those years ago. That was pretty much the last TR class I attended because of the same reasons you cited (above).
It's a shame that James and his crew have embraced something they vehemently opposed during their initial years in business: DOGMA.
Did you, by chance, wear a beanie hat with a propeller? Was there a guy that got hit in the face by a fragment of 5.56? Is that the class?
M_P
decodeddiesel
06-22-09, 15:10
From Joost Elffers fictitious "48 Laws of Power"
Law 27 - Play on People’s Need to Believe to Create a Cult-like Following
People have an overwhelming desire to believe in something. Become the focal point of such desire by offering them a cause, a new faith to follow. Keep your words vague but full of promise; emphasize enthusiasm over rationality and clear thinking. Give your new disciples rituals to perform, ask them to make sacrifices on your behalf. In the absence of organized religion and grand causes, your new belief system will bring you untold power.
Sound familiar?
That is a scarily accurate assessment of the mentality which I have seen come from TR recently.
NCPatrolAR
06-22-09, 15:20
Did you, by chance, wear a beanie hat with a propeller? Was there a guy that got hit in the face by a fragment of 5.56? Is that the class?
M_P
That's the class.
CarlosDJackal
06-22-09, 18:09
Did you, by chance, wear a beanie hat with a propeller? Was there a guy that got hit in the face by a fragment of 5.56? Is that the class?
M_P
I will neither confirm nor deny that such headgear was worn during such a class. :D
Heavy Metal
06-22-09, 19:05
Skippy always wears a beanie with a propeller on it.
http://blog.yeagerscorner.com/2009/06/21.aspx
There are trainers and then there are trainers. I commonly still see units pushing to do higher and higher speed training or get higher speed gear, yet, they don't know the basics. Accelerated Training and Gear won't help you if you don't know the basics.
All I know is that I spent some time with some fellow PSG's reviewing a LFX MOUT Training death back in the late 90's. The other Battalion didn't fully understand the methods that they were using. In the end the #1 man violated several safety measures and ended up behind a target on the far corner of the room. When the #3 man FINALY entered the room all he saw was the target and engaged. 5.56mm through the old FLAK Vest DRT.
The errors were many, but the bottom line was the chain pushed past their level of knowledge of an advanced technic.
WoW that is some shameless self promoting going on. My phone number is readily availible as is my name if anyone cared so I don't think I'm hiding. Oh well, so ends another 11 hour day.
I do need to get out and do some more training, though I will give him that. But, then again I don't claim to be a "Silent Death Commando Ninja Ranger" either.......I did get to carry a gas mask in Utah and run out the back of a CH-47 into a Afghan Palace though:p now I'm just a fat retired F***
according to the TOS thread Jay has done an interview where he states this wasn't a training drill; that he just wanted some downrange photos.
That's what I posted above, the link to it.
Its more noteworthy for what it does NOT say: the whole 'stress innoculation' argument (if you want to call it that) isn't even mentioned. Nor are a lot of the rationalizations from James's 'explanation' video.
They do say however that a lot of students are just 'jealous' (using my own verbiage here) that they don't get to do this stuff with other
instructors.
Ya right :p
NCPatrolAR
06-23-09, 08:02
The internetz don't give up their bounty quite so easily:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqboR6gjOi8&feature=channel_page
I see they are in full damage control mode:
"This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by mark luell . "
Interesting that, with nothing to hide and a claim in fact of lots to be proud of, they are going out of their way to block access to that video.
there's been a lot said in this thread and others elsewhere about JY's incident in Iraq. As repeatedly posted none of us were there, none of us know what really happened. BUT, just like in a courtroom, credibility is critical when telling one's side of the story and a lot of things play into that perception of credibility to include who has the most to gain/lose, other instances where credibility has been tested (and the outcome therein), and the perceived integrity of the speaker.
I see they are in full damage control mode:
"This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by mark luell . "
We are legion...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=db0_1245629888
I also converted the file to MPEG and saved it. Sheeeeeet, if I have to, I'll host the damn thing.
Business_Casual
06-23-09, 10:12
"Five shots into the little man. Five shots."
25 seconds for 5 shots? I think most of them fire a full magazine at least.
M_P
decodeddiesel
06-23-09, 10:44
Interesting that, with nothing to hide and a claim in fact of lots to be proud of, they are going out of their way to block access to that video.
No kidding. I have a sneaking suspicion they have a little explaining to do with their insurance carrier.
http://blog.yeagerscorner.com/2009/06/21.aspx
The threat of physical violence towards the end of the interview (20:20) is really great icing on this whole cake.
Funny, only three comments to that podcast made it through the moderation and they're all supportive of TR. :rolleyes:
decodeddiesel
06-23-09, 11:50
Funny, only three comments to that podcast made it through the moderation and they're all supportive of TR. :rolleyes:
I thought it was a cute touch.
NCPatrolAR
06-23-09, 12:12
Funny, only three comments to that podcast made it through the moderation and they're all supportive of TR. :rolleyes:
Par for the course
I see they are in full damage control mode:
"This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by mark luell . "
the re-upload of his response is still there
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YYd8Rh50g4
and getting commented on by pro TR people who think we can all go back to our airsoft gun masturbation if we disagree with DRE
James Yeager has become a parody of what he wants to be. -I get it. He wants to be accepted as a warrior and mentor of warriors. From the video, it's clear that some of the aspiring warriors on his shooting line didn't know what they were supposed to be doing and the instructors had abdicated their roles. The sooner he would acknowledge that allowing an instructor turned photographer to place himself between two targets has nothing to do with warrior training, admit it was an error in judgment, and accept his lumps, the sooner he would be able to move past this incident.
Instead, James Yeager and Jay Gibson (the guy with camera) keep making "tactical responses" that make them look worse, not better. They courted disaster and were fortunate no one got hurt. True warriors would want to learn from their mistakes and not repeat them. In contrast, Tactical Response's "certified badasses" apparently would rather defend their reputation than get it right.
Wanna know what I find interesting?
The response was pulled due to a 'copyright claim' by a "Mark Luell".
Here's Mr. Luell right here reviewing a piece of gear on TR's website:
http://www.tacticalresponsegear.com/catalog/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=3348&reviews_id=208
I wonder what 'cough' the basis of the claim could possibly BE? :o :rolleyes:
http://i42.tinypic.com/2wc3zoi.jpg
NCPatrolAR
06-23-09, 22:03
Wanna know what I find interesting?
The response was pulled due to a 'copyright claim' by a "Mark Luell".
Here's Mr. Luell right here reviewing a piece of gear on TR's website:
http://www.tacticalresponsegear.com/catalog/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=3348&reviews_id=208
I wonder what 'cough' the basis of the claim could possibly BE? :o :rolleyes:
http://i42.tinypic.com/2wc3zoi.jpg
You should read his posts over on AK Forums
I think it's been established that Mark Luell is part of the "TR family" and posted that video without realizing the shit storm it would generate. As soon as the criticisms started rolling in, he started searching out places where the video has been posted and demanding all copies come down.
Though I think it would be pretty easy to make a "fair use" claim under the circumstances, most individuals -- and most hosting companies -- aren't going to bother with the risk.
There is so much drama going on that its hard to keep track of WHAT vids have been pulled and by who.
Apparently I was under the mistaken impression that James 'response' was pulled for 'copyright'. My bad gents I apologize .
They are certainly in 'damage control' mode thou.
Patrick Aherne
06-24-09, 02:32
There was no good reason to do that stunt. End of story. There are other ways to get pictures. There are other ways to induce stress in shooters to make them use extreme accuracy in difficult situations.
This is assclownery; plain and simple.
I wonder what Kelly McCann thinks about the vid. They sure mention the hell out of him in the blog interveiw.
When I hear Yeager talk he reminds me of most of the redneck frequent fliers around here.
You should read his posts over on AK Forums
Screen name?:D
Screen name?:D
What he said^^^^:D
Business_Casual
06-24-09, 09:58
I will neither confirm nor deny that such headgear was worn during such a class. :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/glock23carry/Picture202b.jpg
I rest my case, your Honor.
M_P
NCPatrolAR
06-24-09, 12:04
Screen name?:D
Markdl000 or something like that. The easiest way is to go to the practical AK subforum and look at one of the Tactical Response threads. Then you can go from there.
NCPatrolAR
06-24-09, 12:06
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/glock23carry/Picture202.jpg
I rest my case, your Honor.
M_P
I haven't seen that picture is years.
You know; I don't recall ever seeing Aaron (lead instructor for that class) with a rifle during the class.
Markdl000 or something like that. The easiest way is to go to the practical AK subforum and look at one of the Tactical Response threads. Then you can go from there.
Thanks. what a fun guy.:rolleyes:
decodeddiesel
06-24-09, 13:00
Thanks. what a fun guy.:rolleyes:
Typical of the TR asshatery as soon as someone called him out on a blatant safety error captured in one of his pictures he says:
settle down hero. all 4 firearms safety rules were being adhered to. Big boy rules.
I don't like taking snapshots as understanding the whole picture of what was happening, but I'll say that while they did encourage safety before movement, he was probably empty.
Sounds familiar. What a tool.
Typical of the TR asshatery as soon as someone called him out on a blatant safety error captured in one of his pictures he says:
Sounds familiar. What a tool.
You beat me to it... "big boy rules" :rolleyes::rolleyes:
CarlosDJackal
06-24-09, 13:24
I haven't seen that picture is years.
You know; I don't recall ever seeing Aaron (lead instructor for that class) with a rifle during the class.
That's because he never did hold one during that class. Personally, I wasn't impressed with Aaron but found his two AIs (can't remember their names) pretty squared away individuals.
Remember Aaron's reaction to that piece of ricocheted lead getting embedded into that dude's cheek? :rolleyes:
You beat me to it... "big boy rules" :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Different people have different interpretations of what "big boy rules" means.
When Ken Hackathorn or Larry Vickers say "big boy rules," I still know that the training will be safe for everyone involved and no risks will be taken merely for the sake of taking risks or looking cool. I also know that people who violate "big boy rules" hear about it right then & there.
"Big boy rules" also only apply when everyone present has been vetted and demonstrated that they can handle it and not do stupid stuff like standing downrange for a cool photo op during a live fire drill.
NCPatrolAR
06-24-09, 13:58
That's because he never did hold one during that class. Personally, I wasn't impressed with Aaron but found his two AIs (can't remember their names) pretty squared away individuals.
Paul and Steve were the two AIs who left the company a short time later.
Remember Aaron's reaction to that piece of ricocheted lead getting embedded into that dude's cheek? :rolleyes:
There were quite a few phone calls being made about that. That was one of the things that had people asking about the company's insurance and who was/wasnt covered.
Patrick Aherne
06-24-09, 16:58
Paul and Steve were the two AIs who left the company a short time later.
There were quite a few phone calls being made about that. That was one of the things that had people asking about the company's insurance and who was/wasnt covered.
This sam type of incident took place in a Tactical Response Fighting Rifle Class I took in San Jose, CA. It was utterly predictable, given the steel we were shooting and the distances we were shooting at. It was something a brand-new firearms instructor would have caught immediately. I brought up the problem and then went for cover. One of the members who posts here was the guy who took a piece of jacket in his cheek.
Different people have different interpretations of what "big boy rules" means.
When Ken Hackathorn or Larry Vickers say "big boy rules," I still know that the training will be safe for everyone involved and no risks will be taken merely for the sake of taking risks or looking cool. I also know that people who violate "big boy rules" hear about it right then & there.
"Big boy rules" also only apply when everyone present has been vetted and demonstrated that they can handle it and not do stupid stuff like standing downrange for a cool photo op during a live fire drill.
I have always believed that everybody has to play by "big boy rules" when they are handling a loaded firearm. I might be jaded by 8th grade in military school though... That was the expression used at the time by one of our instructors, who just happened to be 6'5, 250 and hard as nails.:(
CarlosDJackal
06-24-09, 17:18
This sam type of incident took place in a Tactical Response Fighting Rifle Class I took in San Jose, CA. It was utterly predictable, given the steel we were shooting and the distances we were shooting at. It was something a brand-new firearms instructor would have caught immediately. I brought up the problem and then went for cover. One of the members who posts here was the guy who took a piece of jacket in his cheek.
To be fair the incident NCPatrol, myself, and (possibly) modern_pirate was in was a total freak accident. The piece that ended up in someone's cheek traveled farther than the shooter was from said target and flew right over my head in the process (I was not shooting).
The reaction of Mr. Little was to freak out and panic. He would not even allow the injured student (who was laughing about the whole thing to have his photograph taken. This was his first Rifle class and thought the whole thing was "cool". :p
"Five shots into the little man. Five shots."
25 seconds for 5 shots? I think most of them fire a full magazine at least.
M_P
And one of the shooters reloads after completing his detailed, slow motion, 360 check during which a one legged gorilla in wheel chair could hop up to him and hit him over the head with his bunch of bananas without being seen. :p
keysersoze
06-25-09, 01:03
I posted, but don't expect my comment to make it there.
Yeager has certainly fired instructors for less (See Mike Starling and the GlockTalk thread). I'm shocked that JY didn't throw Jay under the bus.
NCPatrolAR
06-25-09, 01:45
Yeager has certainly fired instructors for less (See Mike Starling and the GlockTalk thread). I'm shocked that JY didn't throw Jay under the bus.
THis whole incident isnt over yet. Dont think that Jay doesnt feel Yeager leading him out towards traffic.
I posted, but don't expect my comment to make it there.
You can leave comments here and they will appear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YYd8Rh50g4
make sure you rate other comments as well. JY and TR fanbois have been giving thumbs down to all the responses calling JY out
kaiservontexas
06-25-09, 13:25
Listening to him makes my head hurt . . . I guess somebody has to cater to those who want to live out mall ninja fantasies. Why can he not just admit he goofed real bad? I swear it goes into the category of "we are our own worst enemies." In anycase I will still not give them any business.
Aside from the horrible judgement of the photog/instr why didn't James Yeager hire a PR firm to mitigate the damages from this situation? I can hardly believe that you would try and "handle" this type of publicity without professional help.
NCPatrolAR
06-25-09, 15:16
Aside from the horrible judgement of the photog/instr why didn't James Yeager hire a PR firm to mitigate the damages from this situation? I can hardly believe that you would try and "handle" this type of publicity without professional help.
probably figures it can be handled by him and his Yeagerites
Aside from the horrible judgement of the photog/instr why didn't James Yeager hire a PR firm to mitigate the damages from this situation? I can hardly believe that you would try and "handle" this type of publicity without professional help.
Because he's a warrior.;)
Business_Casual
06-25-09, 19:25
I made some rough calculations and I would suggest that he is grossing over a half a million a year just from the training business. To not hire professional PR help would seem to be an awful lot of risk; one assumes that he hasn't had the time to isolate the assets, colateralize the web store separately, etc.
Shrug. Not my look out.
M_P
Because he's a warrior.;)
What's in your walle.... err...
http://www.ttellc.net/fun/prfirm.jpg
Aside from the horrible judgement of the photog/instr why didn't James Yeager hire a PR firm to mitigate the damages from this situation? I can hardly believe that you would try and "handle" this type of publicity without professional help.
That's akin to Jim Jones hiring a PR firm :cool:
I just got an email that OSHA, under the new administration, intends to crack down more in support of the proletariat. I think Jay may have a claim.
I stumbled on this whole drama last night.. could not find the video in question at all until just now...
I read a good portion of this thread and the one over at TR and at TOS and this is what I have come away with..
JohnWayne777
The question becomes, then, when is it appropriate to conduct "downrange" training and what procedures should be observed to minimize risk?
True professionals train hard to Minimize as much as they can, the hazards inherent in being around firearms. I saw nothing in that video that had any merit or any reason for being other then to fuel testosterone.
Trying to validated it by pulling the video and using the word "warrior" in every written response just confirms that conclusion.
True warriors do not consider themselves to be one....that's a title there peers bestow to them.. and you can't get it from doing a unsafe act.
kaiservontexas
06-27-09, 15:14
Trying to validated it by pulling the video and using the word "warrior" in every written response just confirms that conclusion.
True warriors do not consider themselves to be one....that's a title there peers bestow to them.. and you can't get it from doing a unsafe act.
Amen +1
NCPatrolAR
07-02-09, 16:54
A number of IALEFI members have voiced their concern regarding the exceptionally unsafe firearms training practice demonstrated in a video which has seen widespread distribution recently featuring James Yeager who purports to be an IALEFI member.
Although Yeager claims to be a member of IALEFI on his web site our records confirm that he is not a current member nor has he ever been a member of the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors, Inc. The precarious procedures and practices displayed in this video defies all intelligent logic and are not worthy of comment as they speak for themselves. Furthermore, his follow up to this complete act of idiocy in an attempt to justify his actions again speaks for itself and does not merit any comment.
http://www.ialefi.com/
To quote the kids:
"Oh Snap!" or "Fail"
poor guy didn't realize that this may actually result in companies doing background checks on his claims. Idiot is right.
To quote the kids:
"Oh Snap!" or "Fail"
poor guy didn't realize that this may actually result in companies doing background checks on his claims. Idiot is right.
http://boingboing.net/images/294168009_b25decaddf.jpg
Google cache of Yeager's claim to be a member of IALEFI (which has since been removed form his site)
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:kYAzvnp-3vcJ:www.tacticalresponse.com/d/node/160+james+yeager+IALEFI&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari
Are you trying to say that Yeager is full of shit? Oh no, say it isn't so. :eek:
http://www.ialefi.com/
His old signature used to be:
"I'd rather fail with honor than succeed than succeed by fraud." Sophocles
So much for honor.
John_Wayne777
07-02-09, 20:07
http://www.ialefi.com/
Ouch.
I wonder how much this has cost him so far. I am not a member of any other firearm forums except a local NJ one, yet even I can see the damage being done from here.
Ouch is right.
http://www.ialefi.com/
And the shit keeps rolling downhill.
Ouch. I've been an IALEFI member for many years, and have seen quite a few instructors -- some quite well known -- quietly asked not to associate with the organization anymore. But to make a public announcement like that ...
I wonder if TR or some other organization/company he owns is a corporate member.
http://www.be.wvu.edu/divecon/econ/sobel/NASCAR/wreck.jpg
This thread is like watching Nascar to see the wrecks.:D
I don't know who did this, but it just made fark's video section
http://www.fark.com/video/
Tropic Thunder
07-07-09, 17:02
Maybe Tactical Response should change their name... But, a major company and training facility changing their name due to some bad press would be a bit ridiculous wouldn't it?
But, a major company and training facility changing their name due to some bad press would be a bit ridiculous wouldn't it?
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb27/Shadow-Village-Ninja/Motivational%20Posters/Irony.jpg
Maybe Tactical Response should change their name... But, a major company and training facility changing their name due to some bad press would be a bit ridiculous wouldn't it?
Yea your right, corporations never ever do that!!!:rolleyes:
Maybe Tactical Response should change their name... But, a major company and training facility changing their name due to some bad press would be a bit ridiculous wouldn't it?
They can call themselves the "Camera in front of the tip of the tip of the Spear" school.
Maybe Tactical Response should change their name... But, a major company and training facility changing their name due to some bad press would be a bit ridiculous wouldn't it?
Maybe they could call themselves
Me
Maybe they could call themselves
Me
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt356/duncan1089/see-what-you-did-there-scaled.jpg
[Edited]
Man deserves a fair trial. I'll leave it at that.
kelly,the pictures are to funny! oh yeah,todd,the irony one is good too!
but nothing like the training many of you have been involved with over the years. So I have refrained from adding to this thread.
Until I saw the posts about his hiring a PR firm etc. "What will TR do to mitigate the damage from this fiasco?" you ask..? Check out pg 46 of the Aug2009 issue of "SWAT". Pure. Comedy. Gold. :rolleyes:
keysersoze
07-24-09, 04:18
but nothing like the training many of you have been involved with over the years. So I have refrained from adding to this thread.
Until I saw the posts about his hiring a PR firm etc. "What will TR do to mitigate the damage from this fiasco?" you ask..? Check out pg 46 of the Aug2009 issue of "SWAT". Pure. Comedy. Gold. :rolleyes:
Can you post a scanned copy of the article? I can't find a copy here!
Can you post a scanned copy of the article? I can't find a copy here!
It's not an article, it's an ad.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/TRAd.jpg
It's not an article, it's an ad.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/TRAd.jpg
That's some pretty gay shit right there.
keysersoze
07-24-09, 12:44
That's some pretty gay shit right there.
Thanks for posting, I couldn't spot it, I was looking for an article.
keysersoze
07-24-09, 12:47
It's not an article, it's an ad.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/TRAd.jpg
No wonder I couldn't find it!
It's not an article, it's an ad.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/TRAd.jpg
That's too damn funny. It's like he WANTS to run his company out of business.
I'm reminded of this comedic gem of his, too.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13495
I can't believe that is an actual advertisement. Very funny and incredibly stupid.
MarshallDodge
07-24-09, 18:38
It's not an article, it's an ad.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/TRAd.jpg
Where is the photographer in that pic? :p
Here's your sign:
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb27/Shadow-Village-Ninja/Motivational%20Posters/Irony.jpg
I don't care who you are...
That's real funny right there.
:)
Business_Casual
07-24-09, 20:51
He is the XD 40 of training.
M_P
Where is the photographer in that pic? :p
LMAO! Someone needs to photo shop the photographer in the background.
:D
NCPatrolAR
07-24-09, 22:22
the playground image is pretty fitting considering how they act towards people that dont kiss their butts.
Misc Ex-Member
07-24-09, 22:31
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POhJ7hZbwDA&feature=player_embedded
:p
This thread makes me smile.
God, I hope SWAT pulls Yeager out of their magazine...
the playground image is pretty fitting considering how they act towards people that dont kiss their butts.
I think the theme of the ad would be very effective. A lot of folks, especially the average S.W.A.T. readers, long for something that makes them feel HSLD.
However, I'm not sure a school playground would be my choice for a firearms training advert background.
thopkins22
07-25-09, 09:32
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POhJ7hZbwDA&feature=player_embedded
:p
I love the first comment on that video. "because its only good training if someone is in mortal danger."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POhJ7hZbwDA&feature=player_embedded
:p
When hillbillies start doing parodies of you... Ya gots ya sef sum problimes.
custom-x_sponjah
07-25-09, 12:25
When hillbillies start doing parodies of you... Ya gots ya sef sum problimes.
Hillbillies eh? :D
To bad I'm from the Beach, I'd enjoy being a hillbilly.....
I'm more Amish than anything..
CXS
Hillbillies eh? :D
To bad I'm from the Beach, I'd enjoy being a hillbilly.....
I'm more Amish than anything..
CXS
The guy in the last frame, looks like the guy from Deliverance in the green hat.... Just sayin.:D
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D9gLN3QoN-q8&ei=nTBrSovIMqqmtgef5bnHBQ&sa=X&oi=video_result&resnum=1&ct=thumbnail&usg=AFQjCNHVmJTH_CsIZ734p0qxkH0X3GAFOQ
custom-x_sponjah
07-25-09, 12:46
The guy in the last frame, looks like the guy from Deliverance in the green hat.... Just sayin.:D
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D9gLN3QoN-q8&ei=nTBrSovIMqqmtgef5bnHBQ&sa=X&oi=video_result&resnum=1&ct=thumbnail&usg=AFQjCNHVmJTH_CsIZ734p0qxkH0X3GAFOQ
HAHAHA!!! Nice.. That angle makes an Asian look like a Hillbilly for sure.
CXS
I love the first comment on that video. "because its only good training if someone is in mortal danger."
The screaming of "get that f*cking gun back in the fight!" made my day, too.
Littlelebowski
07-28-09, 12:52
The cult of personality and "warrior" mentality talk remind me of another prominent tactical trainer and his website.
.
Funny you happened to mention that. I was thinking the same thing.
Would it be the guy, that uses a hatchet to fight a guy with a rifle in his ad?
I just found something else he said on one of his videos....rofl
I agree that too much lube cab attract dust to that is why I use grease. It takes less grease to lube an AR than it does oil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXIsKEHo-4g
Look at text comments, 3 weeks ago.
This guy is brilliant. :rolleyes:
thopkins22
07-28-09, 23:33
I just found something else he said on one of his videos....rofl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXIsKEHo-4g
Look at text comments, 3 weeks ago.
This guy is brilliant. :rolleyes:
Using grease to lube the carrier/bolt shouldn't totally disqualify someone. I can think of another well known trainer whose qualifications not a sole in this thread would question who uses a LOT of grease with good results.
Using grease to lube the carrier/bolt shouldn't totally disqualify someone. I can think of another well known trainer whose qualifications not a sole in this thread would question who uses a LOT of grease with good results.
I have no problem with using grease, I've used it at times for things.
His logic of "the more oil there is, the more dirt it attracts" is what I found humor in.
thopkins22
07-29-09, 04:00
His logic of "the more oil there is, the more dirt it attracts" is what I found humor in.
I'm with you.:cool:
ETA: Speak of the devil....
Not sure if anyone else has seen this, but here it is.
Paul Howe shared his thoughts on the video in his July newsletter. I wonder if Yeager would delete PH's comments, were they made on his website. ;)
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/info-letters/09/CSATUpdate_July09.pdf
I surf the forums and read posts from time to time to see what people are saying about training and to check on new equipment that is being tested and R & D. I recently viewed the video where the cameraman was filming downrange of students while they were live firing on targets next to him. The students of this class, instructor/discipline are emotional and passionate about protecting their instructor’s reputation as is the lead instructor in his YouTube response. I do not wish to crush the instructor or his school, but do have a few safety points to address. Further, I have plenty of business and do not wish to take any from this school. I just want to see all the “good guys/gals” go home at the end of the day and not die because of fratricide.
In his rebuttal to the avalanche of hate mail, he goes on the air and states that safety is unattainable and that true safety does not exist. He also states that firearms are inherently dangerous.
I have to disagree. I train 90% law enforcement and 10% civilians. I added a few
safety rules to the basic four. I added these the day I started my training business and they come from my experience in field and the training arena. I have about 3 years experience in the LE arena, 20 in the military (10 special ops) and 9 in the private sector.
As for putting a cameraman downrange, better solutions could have been found.
Use the camera remote. Or at least have cameraman wear body armor and a ballistic helmet. I think it was a poor decision to put someone’s live in jeopardy over action guy photos.
Watching the students who were firing, the skills were nowhere near where they
needed to be for my comfort zone. Not that I go downrange, but have witnessed the same type training in my career. Many of the school’s instructors/students feel this builds confidence. I have no problem with this type thinking, only you need to first have skills to do it safely and have control valves in place.
I will try and elaborate on the safety rules below:
UNIVERSAL SAFETY RULES PLUS…
1) All guns are always loaded.
Know how to properly load and unload your weapon and do it in a safe
direction.
2) Finger off the trigger until sights are on target.
Know the trigger control for the shot required.
3) Never let your muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
This includes slinging your primary weapon.
4) Know your targets foreground and background.
You as the shooter are required to make a safe shot leading to the target
and are responsible should the bullet leave the target. You can slide
right/left or up or down to make this happen.
5) Weapon is kept on safe with straight trigger finger in a low or high ready
until a target is identified.
Low ready Rifle, High Ready or a Depressed Ready with pistol.
6) Once a target is engaged, the sector may be swept with the weapon on fire
and trigger finger straight.
This applies to room CQB and multiple targets. I teach students to
remove their finger from the trigger when transitioning targets on a flat
range so they will not ride a trigger across a hostage under high stress.
Sympathetic discharges have occurred when riding the trigger.
7) The safety will be engaged prior to any movement or once “clear” is
given.
Soldiers and officers will fall, trip, stumble during operations. Shithole
houses and real buildings which they assault are not clean and sterile like
flat ranges.
8) Shooter to front has priority of fire.
This is where I see many problems that other instructors do not. I
routinely see shooters shooting over the top of their teammates or fellow
students from several feet back, both in training and short combat video
clips. This is dangerous. Four out of five times you will get away with it,
the fifth you will shoot the guy in front of you. You see, you have a hard
focus on the target and the guy downrange/in front of you may decide to
move left/right up or down to get out of the line of fire or make a more
effective shot. When he does, he will move into the path of your bullets.
There are tactical ways to fix this, but it would take too much time to
address it here. I will leave you with this. I have seen one department
violate this rule twice in two years, each time shooting and crippling an
officer to the front. I see many instructors in live fire video and in still
pictures, violating this rule with their students. They are lucky for the
moment.
9) Engage your safety prior to working on injured personnel
(hostages/downed officers), to include the manipulation of suspects.
Your adrenaline will be pumping and you do not want to accidently shoot
a patient you are working on or a suspect you are controlling. This has
happened before.
9) Engage safety of downed officer’s weapon prior to working on or moving
them.
We must create a safe environment to treat someone. This may mean
moving them to cover first. If their weapon AD’s while dragging them, it
might cause injury to them or another officer/good guy.
10) Never run behind any target.
Whether in a shoot house or on a field range, knock down targets prior to
passing them. If you do not, someone may see and shoot the target and
not see you behind or on the other side of it. I have seen this happen many
times in my military career.
12) WHEN IN DOUBT, DON’T PULL THE TRIGGER.
All students come in with a different skill set and experience level. You
must train them how you want them to react and how to look and
interpret various situations and act accordingly. This takes time,
patience and experience.
Further, LE/Civilian tactics/training may require two skill sets. I will use the
example of the “High Sabrina” position demonstrated by students in the video.
When students take a knee to engage, have them scan behind them from the
kneeling position first with their head and not a weapon. First look to ensure
no one is shooting close to them. Next, the police will be arriving soon. In the
civilian situation, you are an unknown standing over a body when officers
arrive. You just fired several rounds and have auditory exclusion (hearing is
impaired). You may not hear police officers shouting command to you. If you
turn with a weapon, there is a good chance you are going to get shot.
Responding officers only know what they see, an unknown person standing
over a body with a gun and now that person turns toward them with a gun.
When law enforcement or military guys turn, they are in a uniform and can
easily be distinguished from the bad guys.
Students who grow up in one discipline only know what they have been shown.
Their instructors may have a limited skill set and limited experience and will
not find out why something is dangerous until someone gets shot.
As for some of the comments from armchair commandos, I will leave you with
this. Unless you have been in special ops for a few successful years, you don’t
know fuckall about what they do or do not do. I read where individuals
reference a short clip of soldiers shooting in training or combat actions and say,
“see, they are doing it.” Yes they are and they are probably doing it wrong or
in an unsafe manner, especially shooting from behind or over individuals from
an unsafe distance. I see it all the time. This includes some spec ops guys. The
military does not always have the best training available and when screw-ups
do happen, they are mostly covered up or attributed to enemy fire. The
military does a poor job of passing down lessons learned and many times spend
more effort training foreigners that their own troops deploying.
Further, as the current conflicts wind down, there will be more instructors
coming to the U.S. scene to teach and instruct. Check out their credentials and
ask them about their safety protocols. If they are weak or shallow, be suspect. I
would be suspect of an instructor who was in a special operations unit for only
one year and then leaves or is pushed out and decides to be a civilian instructor.
Did he get kicked out for screwing up? Is this the person I want to model my
training, life or profession after?
Finally, if I could not train students safely, I would be out of a job. This is why
teach safety as my first block of instruction in all my tactical classes and
continually hammer it home during the entire class. I have a successful system
that I use that has been developed over 30 years of training, refining and
reviewing why accidents happen. I try and learn something each day I train
and still be consistent with my safety protocols.
As for the statement that safety is unattainable, this is false. This is only true if
your ego is too big or your experience level too limited.
Sorry the spacing on the first part sucks, such is life when you copy/ paste out of a PDF file.
The cult of personality and "warrior" mentality talk remind me of another prominent tactical trainer and his website.
Is it the one who has a stylized corinthian helmet adorning his forum page? If so, I am totally in agreement.
Not sure if anyone else has seen this, but here it is.
Paul Howe shared his thoughts on the video in his July newsletter. I wonder if Yeager would delete PH's comments, were they made on his website. ;)
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/info-letters/09/CSATUpdate_July09.pdf
Sorry the spacing on the first part sucks, such is life when you copy/ paste out of a PDF file.
After all the forum debates, videos, etc, he gave the clearest statement on the subject yet.
John_Wayne777
07-30-09, 09:37
Not sure if anyone else has seen this, but here it is.
Paul Howe shared his thoughts on the video in his July newsletter. I wonder if Yeager would delete PH's comments, were they made on his website. ;)
I did see that earlier on his website.
...but isn't it interesting that many of the same points he's made have been made by several participants in this thread. ;)
Littlelebowski
08-01-09, 18:29
Is it the one who has a stylized corinthian helmet adorning his forum page? If so, I am totally in agreement.
Yup. The whole "warrior" thing is a little over the top for me but what clinches it about some of these trainers can be summed up in this excellent post by KevinB here (http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=113128&postcount=31).
One of my big pet peeve's with Instructors pimping themselves on the net, comes down to the old adage those who can't do, teach...
Nothing specifically against Gabe, but in this day and age where we have troops in contact 24/7, there are hundreds of SOF soldiers with a solid background in both the technical and tactical aspects of gunfighting and have put it into place in the real world. I'm not meaning a slight against the Big Army troops or Navy and AF personnel who have been in harms way -- however their is a big disparity in the skill sets by and large.
When I select and instructor for classes I take, or teammates take - the Instructor has to have 1) Proven Operational Experience 2) Technical Knowledge of weapon employment 3) Tactical Employment.
I get really cheesed off when instructors are marketing a "GunFighting" class without having the above three. I take my job very seriously, and training is an aspect of the job.
Yup. The whole "warrior" thing is a little over the top for me but what clinches it about some of these trainers can be summed up in this excellent post by KevinB here.
10-4:)
He is based at my home range. Don't know him but have heard lots...
Yup. The whole "warrior" thing is a little over the top for me but what clinches it about some of these trainers can be summed up in this excellent post by KevinB here.
Link's not working.
Littlelebowski
08-02-09, 16:31
Link is fixed.
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