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DRich
06-21-09, 04:52
A buddy of mine has fallen on hard times and sold me a new-in-box Colt 0923E (9x23 / .38 Super combo package). I've had a 1911 chambered in .38 Super, but I've never played around with the 9x23 Winchester. I know I won't find the ammo at wal-mart, but brass seems fairly easy to find if I want to reload. Or maybe I'll just put it in the vault and sell it back to him later if he wants it. Still, it looks like an interesting cartridge.

From the info in my loading manuals, it seems like most of the loads are virtually identical to the hotter .357 Sig varieties. Anyone here shoot a 9x23?

ToddG
06-21-09, 10:17
The 9x23 was an interesting concept but never took off for a variety of reasons.
1911 shooters want .45s, not 9mms.
9mm shooters want lots of bullets, not just a few bullets.
Alternatively, 9mm shooters want small guns, not big full-size guns.
With 357 SIG, you can achieve essentially the same results (assuming same length barrels), but with more capacity in a smaller frame, from many more manufacturers.
Unless you reload, ammo is close to impossible to find.

Dave Williams
06-21-09, 12:57
While I do not own or shoot a 9x23, I have listened to Master Pistolsmith Jim Garthwaite discuss it and shot his personal 9x23 CCO style carry gun, and fingerbanged several other of his guns.:eek:

Needless to say, I lusted after a 9x23 carry gun built by him after that.

He is the leading proponent/builder of custom 9x23 carry/user guns as far as I know. A cool thing he does is fit a spare 9x19 barrel so that when you go and shoot a high volume class you can use cheap 9x19 for your class.

You may want to correspond with him about the 9x23, he is real good about responding to email.

www.garthwaite.com

Dave Williams

John Fettes
06-21-09, 16:18
I'd looked at the numbers of the factory 357SIG and 9X23 Winchester, and came to the same conclusion you did. I was shooting a G31 at the time. It looked like if you reloaded you own ammo, you could get the 9X23 up to 1,700 FPS.

I had a SA 9mm loaded I'd thought about converting to Super .38 and 9X23. I came to think that G31 was a better answer. I later moved on to 9mm for most of my carry guns.

Dane Burns has written about the 9X23. Look on the left hand margin forth item from the bottom, All about the 9X23 here:

http://burnscustom.com/

He also has a forum called Pistolsmith.com which has a page on several calibers, including the 9X23.

I found this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartridge_(firearms)

9x23mm Winchester - Roughly a 9x19mm case lengthened by 4 mm, the 9x23mm Winchester has its roots in IPSC competition shooting. John Ricco of CP Bullets had developed the '9x23mm Super' case as an alternative to the .38 Super ACP, whose cases varied dramaticly in strength. The .38 Super case also has the disadvantage of a vestigial semi-rim, which can interlock in magazines. Not to be confused with the externally similar 9x23mm Bergmann-Bayard (aka 9 mm Largo), Ricco's case could be safely loaded to nearly double the chamber pressure of the older cartridges. Since Olin/Winchester produced the cases for Ricco, they saw the commercial potential for using the case in a loaded cartridge. Unfortunately, Olin/Winchester tried to cut Ricco out of his potential royalties from sale of the new 9x23mm Winchester. The resulting lawsuit (won by Ricco) and the poor marketing of 9x23mm pistols by Colt has led to tepid commercial acceptance. Despite these troubles, the 9x23mm Winchester comes closer to the goal of matching .357 Magnum ballistics than the more popular .357 SIG.

The rest of the story is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x23mm_Winchester

The 9x23 Winchester is a pistol cartridge developed by Winchester repeating arms. 9x23mm has a long and convoluted development history, but was commercially introduced by Winchester in 1996. Marketed primarily to competition shooters as a replacement for .38 Super for IPSC, USPCA and IDPA competition, the cartridge made a splash, but never really caught on.

The main advantage of 9x23mm Winchester is a much strengthened case that does away with the semi-rimmed case design of the .38 Super. The case is not necked down like the .357 SIG, 9x25mm Super Auto G and 9x25mm Dillon, thus allowing greater magazine capacity and better feeding. The strengthened case allowed the much higher internal pressures to be used than would be safe with .38 Super. The 9x23mm Winchester could operate in the 40,000 CUP while .38 Super maxed out around 30,000 CUP.

The event that spelled doom for the cartridges like the 9x23mm Winchester and 9x25mm Dillon in competition use was when USPSA reduced the power factor necessary to make Major, from 175 to 165, which greatly reduced the internal pressures experienced in .38 Super guns shooting loads at Major power factor.

John

sff70
06-21-09, 17:39
Might be worthwhile, if you had a 9x19 conversion and mags for it.

mike benedict
06-22-09, 18:04
I have several 2x23 1911s and I like them alot.
I have a commander and 3 full size 1911's in 9x23 I believe.
Mostly I shoot 38 super ammo out of them, but I do have some 9x23 carry ammo That I use in my BBQ pistol

JohnN
06-22-09, 20:34
I have several 2x23 1911s and I like them alot.
I have a commander and 3 full size 1911's in 9x23 I believe.
Mostly I shoot 38 super ammo out of them, but I do have some 9x23 carry ammo That I use in my BBQ pistol

I had a 5" gun built by Tim Bacus in 9x23 and it ran great with 9x23 Silvertips but not with White Box ammo. Also ran great with all .38 Super rounds I tried out of it. I found it to be a very pleasant and accurate cartridge. By the way, if you decide to keep the 9x23 I have couple of boxes of White box I'd sell.

87GN
06-24-09, 11:13
I reload for this caliber occasionally. The factory Winchester brass is great, you can reload it quite a bit.

Factory Winchester 125gr Silvertips come out of my EAA Witness at 1465fps. Yet recoil is next to nothing, nothing like a 357 Sig, the angry fire breathing dragon when you get 125s to that velocity.

I've been meaning to pull some 147gr Bonded bullets from Ranger brass and load them into 9x23, then see what they do in gel. They'll be way outside their velocity window, but I'm still curious.

Chuck
06-24-09, 12:31
The Winchester white box 124gr JSP gets 1500fps from a 5" barrel!
It blows impressive holes in large jackrabbits.

Fail-Safe
06-24-09, 12:46
Seems all it does is make 9mm holes, slightly faster, at a higher cost.

87GN
06-24-09, 12:57
Seems all it does is make 9mm holes, slightly faster, at a higher cost.

Pretty much...if you reload, you can do so for roughly the cost of 9mm, though, and it makes a great cartridge if you want to shoot at longer distances for a pistol.

Chuck
06-24-09, 17:50
Corvette

Seems all it does is go down the road, slightly faster, at a higher cost.

:)

John Fettes
06-25-09, 07:51
And, flatter too, I think.

John

Chuck
06-26-09, 01:53
Dealer cost on a 50rd box of the above mentioned Winchester JSP is $22.50.
$20.50 a box in a 500rd case. Not at all expensive. And yes, there is plenty in stock.
The .357 magnum has racked up quite an impressive record of stops with a similar bullet at slightly less velocity. The 9x23 exceeds most modern .357 magnum loads and equals the .357 of yesterday.
Although I'll always carry a 45 there is no reason to believe that the 9x23 would not be a VERY effective round.
Maybe Doc Roberts could be persuaded to doing some tests.
I am currently building a lightweight Colt Commander in 9x23. 11 rds of 357 magnum plus in a 26oz package. I may just cut the slide to officers length and compensate it back out to commander length using a titanium comp.
:)

sff70
06-26-09, 03:46
As I understand it, for a given bullet, velocity, expansion, and penetration are variables that are all interrelated.

Thus, increasing velocity does not necessarily increase penetration.

For example, the best.357 Sig (a .355 bullet) does not penetate significantly better than the best 9x19 (a .355 bullet).

Also see: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

It would be interesting to see a FBI protocol test of some 9x23 ammo, though.

Corse
05-21-10, 07:19
Dealer cost on a 50rd box of the above mentioned Winchester JSP is $22.50.
$20.50 a box in a 500rd case. Not at all expensive. And yes, there is plenty in stock.
The .357 magnum has racked up quite an impressive record of stops with a similar bullet at slightly less velocity. The 9x23 exceeds most modern .357 magnum loads and equals the .357 of yesterday.
Although I'll always carry a 45 there is no reason to believe that the 9x23 would not be a VERY effective round.
Maybe Doc Roberts could be persuaded to doing some tests.
I am currently building a lightweight Colt Commander in 9x23. 11 rds of 357 magnum plus in a 26oz package. I may just cut the slide to officers length and compensate it back out to commander length using a titanium comp.
:)

Sorry to bring this one back from the dead, but do you have any sources for a commander length barrel?

Falboy
05-26-10, 12:23
I ordered my 9x23 barrel from BarSto for my .38 Super LW Commander build. I've got it running but still need to do some work on it. Nice shooter, very smooth recoil impulse. I actully only paid about $7- a box for Silvertips say 5 yrs. ago when Gander Mtn. was clearancing it. I didn't even have a gun for it at the time but bought 850 rds. before they saw it moving and upped the pice back up to $21- a box! You know, I really need to finish this gun.....

MarshallDodge
05-26-10, 16:05
Sorry to bring this one back from the dead, but do you have any sources for a commander length barrel?

Nowlin is one source that I know of: http://store.nowlinguns.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=NG&Category_Code=B

Corse
05-27-10, 08:02
Thanks for the info. I have a couple of boxes of ammo too. Still have the $12.99 price tags on them. Have there been any problems getting the gun to run?

Falboy
06-01-10, 10:42
None for me, especially compared to the .40S&W I'm building for my cousin!

Bret
03-02-11, 20:46
Factory Winchester 125gr Silvertips come out of my EAA Witness at 1465fps.
Did you install a 9x23 barrel or do you just use the 38 Super barrel? Did you have to install a stiffer recoil spring?