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View Full Version : Whats the deal with the .45 G.A.P.



jman4427
06-29-09, 16:12
I remember reading an article years ago about this cartridge and how it refined the .45 and I think Glock was making the pistols for it and still is making them for the round. I haven't heard of anyone using it though. I imagine the ammo would be expensive and difficult to find especially since it isnt popular.

What is the story behind the G.A.P. and why did it never catch on? Im going to assume it didnt offer any significant improvement over the .45 for people to switch.

matthewdanger
06-29-09, 16:27
Last I heard there were a few large departments who were issuing them (or maybe just allowing them as an option). I never really understood the need for the .45 GAP in the first place.

RogerinTPA
06-29-09, 17:07
It was Glock who developed the round (Glock Automatic Pistol) to fit in a gun that was similar in size to their 9/40 platforms, to appeal to those who might want a more concealable pistol, without sacrificing firepower of the ACP. A marketing gimmick for an unnecessary round to fill a perceived gap/nitch, that wasn't there.

tpd223
06-29-09, 17:54
Think about when this popped up; during the ban.

Having ten rounds of .45 in the same size gun as a 9mm made sense, especially since you couldn't buy any new 17 round mags for your 9mm.

NY and Penn State Police have both adopted the GAP, due to flawed logic IMHO, but whatever.

apache64
06-29-09, 20:57
Flawed logic? What a nice way to say another dumb decision. As a proud member of one of the large agencies with the GAP, Glock 21 SF, 13 + 1 rounds of .45 ACP was available, with holsters on the market. Let us pick a Glock with lower capacity, poor holster selection and difficult to find ammo. By the way, the magic charts put it closer to a .40 S&W. OK, why not the Glock 22 which has 15 + 1 capacity, ammo everywhere, including P&S, and holsters galore. By the way, if anybody on our dept. owned a Glock previously, most likely it was a Glock 27. Mag compatibility for backups.

Whatever. Sorry for the slight rant. G37 is a nice gun to shoot and it is a Glock, but it doesn't make sense.

Hopefully, Glock will make the interchangeable grips so that everyone can finally be at peace and make their gun fit their hands.

CoryCop25
06-29-09, 21:19
The .45 GAP had flopped due to poor ammunition issues. Winchester has addressed those issues and now the GAP is a formidable cartridge. The Pennsylvania State Police adopted the GAP about 2 years ago. Not too up to date on any of their officer involved shootings with it but I know the one shootings in my area was very effective to say the least. Unfortunately we did loose a Trooper in this incident, he did manage to hit the bad guy three times after receiving a fatal hit to the neck. His partner added five more rounds to the assailant after taking one to the arm and the other officers on scene rescued the 9 year old hostage. Although the brass of the PSP are known for making bad decisions ( poor vehicle emergency lighting, not enough troopers on the interstates) the .45GAP was chosen because it put a large caliber round comfortably in the hands of all their Troopers male or female, big or small hands. I believe they are carrying the Speer Gold Dot 200 grain round which has the exact same ballistics as the old 200 grain .45 ACP flying ashtray that was the leading .45 ACP law enforcement round.

ToddG
06-29-09, 22:07
Glock developed the cartridge for two reasons:

First and foremost, Gaston hated the fact that Colt had its name on cartridges, and S&W had its name on cartridges, and SIG had its name on cartridges ... but not Glock. I've been told this many times by people with first hand knowledge Gaston wanted his name on a cartridge.

Second and much more reasonable, the development was pre-JCP so there was a dearth of big-caliber pistols on the market that were reasonably high capacity and small enough for small/female officers.

Unfortunately for Glock, a number of bad things happened:
The original plan was to make the gun identical in size to the G17/G22. Concept: trade agencies out in favor of the new, bigger bullet without needing new holsters, etc. Problem: the gun wouldn't work without a wider, heavier slide. Result: the gun doesn't fit in those G17/G22 holsters.
Ammo availability was (and is) limited. Prices are high.
There were a number of folks, including a well known military unit, that tested the gun and found that it was unreliable.
The gun has significantly more felt recoil than either a G22 or G21.
JCP came along and suddenly the entire industry was devoting massive R&D money to create high-capacity .45 Auto pistols that were small, reliable, lightweight, and durable.

To date, every large agency that has adopted the .45 GAP Glocks got their guns for free. In the case of NYSD, state law wouldn't allow the department to trade its old guns so Glock gave them, flat out, free of charge, nothing in return, all the guns, holsters, mag pouches, and two years worth of duty, transition, and training/qual ammo. That was the length Glock was willing to go in order to get a major agency in the win column for .45 GAP.

It shouldn't surprise anyone that the .45 GAP is effective in a terminal sense. It's a .45, after all, and matches .45 Auto velocities with mid-weight bullets reasonably well. But in a world with HK45s and M&P45s, you no longer have to rely on a shorter cartridge to get a 10rd .45 that will work in the hands of your smaller officers. And you don't need to rely on a nearly proprietary cartridge with a doubtful future.

kmrtnsn
06-29-09, 22:30
"A marketing gimmick for an unnecessary round to fill a perceived gap/nitch, that wasn't there."

.357SIG, anyone?

jman4427
06-29-09, 23:26
Glock developed the cartridge for two reasons:

First and foremost, Gaston hated the fact that Colt had its name on cartridges, and S&W had its name on cartridges, and SIG had its name on cartridges ... but not Glock. I've been told this many times by people with first hand knowledge Gaston wanted his name on a cartridge.

Second and much more reasonable, the development was pre-JCP so there was a dearth of big-caliber pistols on the market that were reasonably high capacity and small enough for small/female officers.

Unfortunately for Glock, a number of bad things happened:
The original plan was to make the gun identical in size to the G17/G22. Concept: trade agencies out in favor of the new, bigger bullet without needing new holsters, etc. Problem: the gun wouldn't work without a wider, heavier slide. Result: the gun doesn't fit in those G17/G22 holsters.
Ammo availability was (and is) limited. Prices are high.
There were a number of folks, including a well known military unit, that tested the gun and found that it was unreliable.
The gun has significantly more felt recoil than either a G22 or G21.
JCP came along and suddenly the entire industry was devoting massive R&D money to create high-capacity .45 Auto pistols that were small, reliable, lightweight, and durable.

To date, every large agency that has adopted the .45 GAP Glocks got their guns for free. In the case of NYSD, state law wouldn't allow the department to trade its old guns so Glock gave them, flat out, free of charge, nothing in return, all the guns, holsters, mag pouches, and two years worth of duty, transition, and training/qual ammo. That was the length Glock was willing to go in order to get a major agency in the win column for .45 GAP.

It shouldn't surprise anyone that the .45 GAP is effective in a terminal sense. It's a .45, after all, and matches .45 Auto velocities with mid-weight bullets reasonably well. But in a world with HK45s and M&P45s, you no longer have to rely on a shorter cartridge to get a 10rd .45 that will work in the hands of your smaller officers. And you don't need to rely on a nearly proprietary cartridge with a doubtful future.

Oooooo. Great insight as always. Thanks guys.

tpd223
06-30-09, 02:06
IIRC, Penn was carrying the .40, as well as several other agencies there, and the NYSP was carrying the G17.

I wouldn't have traded a G17 for a G37 without kicking and screaming.

I was talking via e-mail a couple of years ago with a copper from Penn who thought the .40 "lacks stopping power" and what they needed was a round that gave "instantaneous stopping power".

He was worried about a few incidents where bad guys had taken several .40 rounds and not stopped immediately, one was the guy from the power point that everyone on the internet has seen by now, the other was a crazy guy with a chain saw.
I won't belabor the back-story on the power point guy, but I will note that "maniac with a chain saw" would very likely be someone in the hard to stop category.

I had been unaware that Gaston had in fact invented what we have all been searching for all these years, a bullet that acts like a death ray.

Rob96
06-30-09, 03:24
IIRC, Penn was carrying the .40, as well as several other agencies there, and the NYSP was carrying the G17.

I wouldn't have traded a G17 for a G37 without kicking and screaming.

I was talking via e-mail a couple of years ago with a copper from Penn who thought the .40 "lacks stopping power" and what they needed was a round that gave "instantaneous stopping power".

He was worried about a few incidents where bad guys had taken several .40 rounds and not stopped immediately, one was the guy from the power point that everyone on the internet has seen by now, the other was a crazy guy with a chain saw.
I won't belabor the back-story on the power point guy, but I will note that "maniac with a chain saw" would very likely be someone in the hard to stop category.

I had been unaware that Gaston had in fact invented what we have all been searching for all these years, a bullet that acts like a death ray.

Penn State Police patrol were carrying DAO 40 caliber Berettas, Narco and their ERT guys were carrying G22's. I talked to a couple of troopers and they couldn't understand going to the GAP.

tpd223
06-30-09, 03:27
Glad my memory isn't totally shot.

FMF_Doc
06-30-09, 04:38
solution in search of a problem.

JonInWA
06-30-09, 08:12
I think that the biggest success/ reason d'entre for the GAP line is that it does provide a ballistically acceptable solution comparable to the .45 ACP in a smaller frame-a potentially ideal situation for organizations requiring the most cost-effective solution to providing for disparate hand sizes with a single frame, in a .45 caliber weapon.

Otherwise, I agree with what Todd and others have stated. Personally, when it came time for me to choose my .45 Glock, I was open-minded; having a chance to try both and compare them both in an administrative and in a competitive situation, I found that I much preferred the G21 in .45 ACP, for reasons of better accuracy, diminished recoil, and acceptable indexing for me with the G21 frame.

Since the sunsetting of the previous Assault Weapons Law, the previous capacity parity that the G37 shared with the neutered magazines of the G21 has vanished, and Glock's provision of the G21 Short Frame (and soon to arrive variably-sized/interchangeable grip backstraps) has further eroded the rationale and need for the GAP line-up, particularly for the civilian marketplace, in my opinion.

Best, Jon

tusk212
06-30-09, 08:24
I was talking via e-mail a couple of years ago with a copper from Penn who thought the .40 "lacks stopping power" and what they needed was a round that gave "instantaneous stopping power".

He was worried about a few incidents where bad guys had taken several .40 rounds and not stopped immediately, one was the guy from the power point that everyone on the internet has seen by now, the other was a crazy guy with a chain saw.
I won't belabor the back-story on the power point guy, but I will note that "maniac with a chain saw" would very likely be someone in the hard to stop category.

Also see Trooper Joseph Sepp's incident. I have heard from a Trooper that that incident also played into the change.

tpd223
07-01-09, 04:58
The idea that going from one service caliber round to another will bring a dramatic increase in "stopping power" is likely to get more coppers killed.

IMHO, NYSP would have been better off keeping their 9mms and doubling their ammo budget/training, instead of buying guns with half the magazine capacity and more expensive ammo.

tusk212
07-01-09, 10:05
The idea that going from one service caliber round to another will bring a dramatic increase in "stopping power" is likely to get more coppers killed.

IMHO, NYSP would have been better off keeping their 9mms and doubling their ammo budget/training, instead of buying guns with half the magazine capacity and more expensive ammo.

+1. I just read in a trade mag about the Keith Borders incident. The perp was hit with 6 hits to the torso, 1 in the thigh, and 2 in the ankle that severed his foot from a Glock 21 .45 and continued fighting. The only thing that ended the fight quickly was a shot to his brain via his eye ball. The officer was down to his last 2 rounds before the head shot so he was becoming dangerously close to running out of ammo. Would he have been in a better situation having a 9mm as opposed to his 45? (40 rounds of 45 to 52 of 9mm assuming he would have a Glock 21 to a Glock 17) I dont know the answer to that question. But there is still no magic pistol round that will drop someone right away without a shot in a critical area, ie brain.

markm
07-01-09, 10:13
If they'd have named it .45Costa, everyone would switch over to it. :p

ToddG
07-01-09, 10:14
IMHO, NYSP would have been better off keeping their 9mms and doubling their ammo budget/training, instead of buying guns with half the magazine capacity and more expensive ammo.

NYSP had no money. They weren't the driving force behind the caliber change. Glock offered them guns, mags, leather, and ammo if they would switch to the .45 GAP.

slustan
07-01-09, 12:59
One good thing has come out of the NYSP switch to 45 gap. We lowly corrections officers will finally get away from S&W model 10's and 18 rounds of 110 non +p SJHPs.

Don't get me wrong I love the model 10, but this will be a nice change. (That's when they figure out how to actually implement the change. )

apache64
07-01-09, 20:31
Regarding the Joe Sepp homicide: His killer needed shot with 12 gauge slugs or .223. He was hit approximately a dozen times by PSP and local officers with handguns. I can't remember the exact number, approx. 3 hits Center of Mass and remainder were in his legs. Leach was over 250 pounds, agitated and intoxicated. I can't say more due to work rules, but his vital organs were spared by thousandths of an inch.

Shot placement. During stress and at high speed, aim a little higher than COM. You will most likely shoot low.

I learned this shooting steel plate matches and during training. My comrades proved it in gunfights. They are excellent shots and still shot low.

tusk212
07-01-09, 21:56
Regarding the Joe Sepp homicide: His killer needed shot with 12 gauge slugs or .223. He was hit approximately a dozen times by PSP and local officers with handguns. I can't remember the exact number, approx. 3 hits Center of Mass and remainder were in his legs. Leach was over 250 pounds, agitated and intoxicated. I can't say more due to work rules, but his vital organs were spared by thousandths of an inch.

Shot placement. During stress and at high speed, aim a little higher than COM. You will most likely shoot low.

I learned this shooting steel plate matches and during training. My comrades proved it in gunfights. They are excellent shots and still shot low.
PM out to you

ThirdWatcher
07-01-09, 23:19
Glock developed the cartridge for two reasons:

First and foremost, Gaston hated the fact that Colt had its name on cartridges, and S&W had its name on cartridges, and SIG had its name on cartridges ... but not Glock. I've been told this many times by people with first hand knowledge Gaston wanted his name on a cartridge.

Why did the Edsel come immediately to mind when I read this?:D

JonInWA
07-02-09, 08:04
Ouch-that hurts!

Best, Jon

HK45
07-04-09, 18:59
Yup. You just saved me a post. The only thing I would add is that GAP owners tend to be very defensive about their choice!


It was Glock who developed the round (Glock Automatic Pistol) to fit in a gun that was similar in size to their 9/40 platforms, to appeal to those who might want a more concealable pistol, without sacrificing firepower of the ACP. A marketing gimmick for an unnecessary round to fill a perceived gap/nitch, that wasn't there.

HK45
07-04-09, 19:00
I have always suspected that.


Glock developed the cartridge for two reasons:
First and foremost, Gaston hated the fact that Colt had its name on cartridges, and S&W had its name on cartridges, and SIG had its name on cartridges ... but not Glock. I've been told this many times by people with first hand knowledge Gaston wanted his name on a cartridge.

MarshallDodge
07-05-09, 23:59
There were a number of folks, including a well known military unit, that tested the gun and found that it was unreliable.

The only Glock in 45 GAP that I saw someone shoot couldn't get through a box of 50 without a couple jams. It was when they first came out with them so maybe the issue has been fixed since then.

tpd223
07-06-09, 04:39
All of the GAP guns I have seen worked very well, but I haven't actually seen that many of them so far.

Abraxas
07-06-09, 07:44
Like so many thins out there, the G.A.P. was the answer to a question that no one asked. Or perhaps the answer to a question that had already been answered.