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kanak
07-12-09, 03:08
Is it really that bad? I'm looking to get either a SIG 229 or 239 in 9mm or an HK p30. I'm leaning more toward the HK primarily because I've always wanted to own one, and also with all the talk of how good the p30 is shaping up to be, further has me wanting to purchase the HK. Now, if the SIG quality is primarily something that occurs given man made things could fail and is acceptable, in relation to the number of pistols out there and problems other firearms companies have, I'm all for a SIG 229 or 239 with SRT. Insight is much appreciated and needed.

d90king
07-12-09, 08:10
Not sure why you would think that Sig has a quality issue with their handguns?:confused:

How are you going to use the pistol?

I have a P30 and a 229, if I am being honest I would say that the P30 is more touchy than the 229 is. The 229 that I have is a little chunky for concealed carry but has never had a failure of any kind. Mine has the CT grips and that could add to it though.

I would not worry about reliability with a Sig, but that is just my experience YMMV.

Medicine Calf
07-12-09, 08:38
Has SIG solved the problem they had with takedown lever failure, and have no other issues popped up since then?

d90king
07-12-09, 09:27
Has SIG solved the problem they had with takedown lever failure, and have no other issues popped up since then?

What experience have you had with those problems?

ToddG
07-12-09, 10:10
What experience have you had with those problems?

Last year, SIG had a pretty serious issue with takedown levers which were improperly (or at least inadequately) manufactured. The result was a number of customers, in particular LE agencies, having the "flag" loosen and begin to spin freely. While mostly causing a simple inconvenience when trying to disassemble the pistol, in some cases the "flag" turned and became jammed into the slide during the recoil cycle, completely locking up the gun.

The issue was significant enough that at one point, there were internal discussions at SIG considering a recall of tens of thousands of affected guns. Instead, it was decided to replace broken levers as they occurred. Some LE agencies, however, did receive new levers for all guns in the affected lot(s).

Ironically, some of the earliest replacement levers had a new problem as the "flag" was welded in place but not pinned. Result was that some of the flags simply fell off. This had no practical effect on the functionality of the gun, but tools were required to disassemble.

To the best of my knowledge, SIG resolved the problem many months ago and there have been no reports of problems with the takedown lever since that time.

d90king
07-12-09, 10:32
Last year, SIG had a pretty serious issue with takedown levers which were improperly (or at least inadequately) manufactured. The result was a number of customers, in particular LE agencies, having the "flag" loosen and begin to spin freely. While mostly causing a simple inconvenience when trying to disassemble the pistol, in some cases the "flag" turned and became jammed into the slide during the recoil cycle, completely locking up the gun.

The issue was significant enough that at one point, there were internal discussions at SIG considering a recall of tens of thousands of affected guns. Instead, it was decided to replace broken levers as they occurred. Some LE agencies, however, did receive new levers for all guns in the affected lot(s).

Ironically, some of the earliest replacement levers had a new problem as the "flag" was welded in place but not pinned. Result was that some of the flags simply fell off. This had no practical effect on the functionality of the gun, but tools were required to disassemble.

To the best of my knowledge, SIG resolved the problem many months ago and there have been no reports of problems with the takedown lever since that time.



Thank you for the detailed info. I have not experienced any issues and was curious to hear from people who were familiar with the issue. My 229 is a couple years old and has not shown any signs of the problem in 5812 rounds.

I don't use the pistol for every day carry and only shoot it a couple times a month to stay in practice with it (it is my bed side bio safe pistol), so that could be why I haven't had the problems you mentioned. Thanks again...

gtmtnbiker98
07-12-09, 11:03
A lot of the QC problems have been amplified by the Internet and Web forums similar to this one. As for overall quality, comparing Exeter guns to guns manufactured in the mid 90s, yes, QC has slipped but the guns are still every bit as reliable. The QC related issues have really escalated in recent months, for instance since late 2008 and this year.

A lot of the blame regarding QC is focused upon current management and their connections with Kimber. YMMV.

ToddG
07-12-09, 12:16
Thank you for the detailed info. I have not experienced any issues and was curious to hear from people who were familiar with the issue. My 229 is a couple years old and has not shown any signs of the problem in 5812 rounds.

Ten years ago, you could buy a SIG, load it at the gunshop, walk out the front door and know the gun was going to work. Period. You can't say that about the guns coming out of Exeter now.

But that doesn't mean they suck or that they're substantially more problematic than other brands. If you've got over 5,000 rounds through yours, it's pretty well proven at this point.

While I'd no longer blindly trust a NIB SIG, I'd certainly carry one after I put 1,000 trouble-free rounds through it. Could something still go wrong? Yes. But that's true of any gun on the market.

PPGMD
07-12-09, 12:26
The German QC and proofing process might detect major issues like accuracy problems, or guns being too tight, but I highly doubt that it would prevent parts failures, unless they just happened to break during the process.

IMO I would put the current Sig QC about the same level as the rest of the non-European industry. They have a bad batch of parts every once in a while, and their QC might not be as extensive as it was in Germany, but they are still reliable quality guns.

I also agree that I think the problems are magnified by the internet, and time. People remember a fonder time, and the people that had broken German Sigs are less likely to own Sigs currently.

ToddG
07-12-09, 12:37
The German QC and proofing process might detect major issues like accuracy problems, or guns being too tight, but I highly doubt that it would prevent parts failures, unless they just happened to break during the process.

Actually, no. The main difference is that ten years ago all the small parts were manufactured by Sauer in Germany and then still QC checked when they arrived in Exeter. Now they're bought from other companies all over the world (Israel & SE Asia, for instance) and clearly they aren't being subjected to the same level of QC.


I also agree that I think the problems are magnified by the internet, and time. People remember a fonder time, and the people that had broken German Sigs are less likely to own Sigs currently.

This has nothing to do with Germany vs. Exeter. Guns being manufactured in Exeter in the early part of this decade were as high quality and dependable as any SIGs ever manufactured. It has to do with decisions to outsource more parts including critical components such as the locking insert, a decision to cease test firing of non-LE guns (and at some points in time, many LE guns), etc.

Prior to the current CEO's appointment, SIG was struggling to remain solvent. The new CEO was brought in to cut costs and improve profitability. He's done exactly what the owners want, which is why he was elevated to running the entire international group.

This is the reality of the industry right now. You can either have very high QC and very high prices, or you can have "good enough" QC and competitive pricing. The only big company still following the first model is HK, and they probably don't sell a quarter as many guns as their competition.

Medicine Calf
07-12-09, 12:44
There was also the long standing issue of the internal extractor, on the Exeter manufactured Stainless slide 220 based pistols. This has ostensibly been rectified with the newer external extractor.

I've been thinking lately of looking into a 226 Navy.

ralph
07-12-09, 14:17
Actually, no. The main difference is that ten years ago all the small parts were manufactured by Sauer in Germany and then still QC checked when they arrived in Exeter. Now they're bought from other companies all over the world (Israel & SE Asia, for instance) and clearly they aren't being subjected to the same level of QC.



This has nothing to do with Germany vs. Exeter. Guns being manufactured in Exeter in the early part of this decade were as high quality and dependable as any SIGs ever manufactured. It has to do with decisions to outsource more parts including critical components such as the locking insert, a decision to cease test firing of non-LE guns (and at some points in time, many LE guns), etc.

Prior to the current CEO's appointment, SIG was struggling to remain solvent. The new CEO was brought in to cut costs and improve profitability. He's done exactly what the owners want, which is why he was elevated to running the entire international group.

This is the reality of the industry right now. You can either have very high QC and very high prices, or you can have "good enough" QC and competitive pricing. The only big company still following the first model is HK, and they probably don't sell a quarter as many guns as their competition.

Todd;
Quick question..Does HK in Germany, manfacture all it's parts for their pistols, or do they sub those out??

.357sigger
07-12-09, 18:39
Last year, SIG had a pretty serious issue with takedown levers which were improperly (or at least inadequately) manufactured. The result was a number of customers, in particular LE agencies, having the "flag" loosen and begin to spin freely. While mostly causing a simple inconvenience when trying to disassemble the pistol, in some cases the "flag" turned and became jammed into the slide during the recoil cycle, completely locking up the gun.

The issue was significant enough that at one point, there were internal discussions at SIG considering a recall of tens of thousands of affected guns. Instead, it was decided to replace broken levers as they occurred. Some LE agencies, however, did receive new levers for all guns in the affected lot(s).

Ironically, some of the earliest replacement levers had a new problem as the "flag" was welded in place but not pinned. Result was that some of the flags simply fell off. This had no practical effect on the functionality of the gun, but tools were required to disassemble.

To the best of my knowledge, SIG resolved the problem many months ago and there have been no reports of problems with the takedown lever since that time.

Thats exactly what happened with my 229...the take down lever would just spin. Sent it back on there dime on replaced free of charge. The thing that bugs me the most is how the steel slide eats the aluminum frame. Lately I have had some failure to feeds and i havent figured out why yet...

SteyrAUG
07-12-09, 19:05
There were lots of folks talking about SIG QC issues a couple years ago. But last year I got a 226 Tactical and it seems fine to me.

kanak
07-12-09, 20:06
Thank you for the insight shared so far guys. d90king, as you can see, there were some issues and I needed to confirm as I know how the internet has a tendency to blow things out of proportion. My intent is to use it as an off-duty weapon and for classes that I hope to enroll in soon.


This is the reality of the industry right now. You can either have very high QC and very high prices, or you can have "good enough" QC and competitive pricing. The only big company still following the first model is HK, and they probably don't sell a quarter as many guns as their competition.
That's interesting to hear Todd :cool:. I tend to follow the school of thought that if you buy cheap, you buy twice...cheap being not only in price, but a reflection of the quality that's put into a product which helps to determine price.

In terms of price SIG isn't cheap, thus my question to help me determine whether my HARD earned dollar should go to SIG or HK. Some are probably saying, just go Glock...I'm currently changing from the Glock to more closely match my duty weapon's DA/SA action (a S&W) on some good advice from a fellow board member ;).

Race
07-12-09, 20:34
...they're bought from other companies all over the world (Israel & SE Asia, for instance)...

Smith & Wesson does this too, don't they? Are their parts made in the same factories in these countries?

Are Glock's parts still made in Austria?

.357sigger
07-12-09, 20:37
My sig functioned flawlessly til about 5,000 round then I had the problem with the takedown lever. I am somewhere on the low side of 6,000 now...I love the gun and the trigger. I am thinking my prob may be worn mag springs...we will see:confused:

ToddG
07-12-09, 22:37
Todd;
Quick question..Does HK in Germany, manfacture all it's parts for their pistols, or do they sub those out??

I don't know for certain, but I'd be very surprised to learn that any company currently makes all of the parts that go into its guns. Back in the day, S&W even used to make their own pins and screws ...

The issue isn't whether a company is making the part internally, it's whether the part is being made properly, from the proper material, and QC'd at both the vendor and assembler levels. Think of it like a hamburger. You can have someone else make your hamburger, but there's a huge difference between one you'd get from McDonald's and one you'd get from Kobe.


Thats exactly what happened with my 229...the take down lever would just spin. Sent it back on there dime on replaced free of charge. The thing that bugs me the most is how the steel slide eats the aluminum frame. Lately I have had some failure to feeds and i havent figured out why yet...

Can you describe -- or better yet post pics -- of the slide eating the frame? I have a fair bit of experience with SIGs and it's very rare to see one out of spec enough to do something like that. If it is, it wouldn't hold off for 5,000 rounds before it started to damage the frame.


In terms of price SIG isn't cheap, thus my question to help me determine whether my HARD earned dollar should go to SIG or HK.

The P239 is a substantially different weapon than the P2000SK. Both should work fine. If it doesn't, both companies should be expected to make it right. So my recommendation would be to choose the one that (a) meets your concealment/off-duty needs in terms of size, etc. and (b) shoots best for you. edited to add: the SIG will be a little closer in terms of commonality since it has a magazine release button that functions similarly to your duty weapon.

Sigmax
07-12-09, 23:51
As a long time Sig-o-phile this has been a definite issue in the last number of years. As Todd stated there was a time when I acutally swapped out 229's and had no problem immediatley utilizing it as a CCW and taking to a match. Was that smart, probably not, but that was the level of confidence in SIG pistols.

The question of are there more problems with SIG or whether has the internet magnified them is largely academic as we will never really know. But I can tell you problem used to be very rare in my experience. Of course that was when SIG was making blocky black pistols that were heavily QC'd. Outsource more parts, make 12 different versions of each model, stop test firing pistols, & you are going to have at least a few more problems. I don't think it makes them any worst then the rest of the industry, more likely just like the rest of the industry.

I can remember an early discussion on the internet of how SIG was falling behind because they didn't have rails on their pistols & won't some limited editions be nice, & why don't they focus more on the consumer market :). Well we got what we asked for in spades. I have no problem carrying a SIG, a 229 or 226 with the SRT trigger is my favorite, as long as I have pressure tested it with 1000 rounds same as any pistol I carry. SIG no longer gets an exemption, but they are still a good pistol.

Todd, I would be interested in knowing if you think the few models that are built in Germany are built to a better standard then what are coming out of Exceter currently? Like the 228 and the 226 X-five tactical.

ToddG
07-13-09, 00:12
Given that the same guy who made the QC/vendor changes in NH is now also running Germany, I wouldn't necessarily bet on any commercial gun to be better than another.

.357sigger
07-13-09, 00:18
I will see if I can take some pics of it...I would like to see what you think. I didn't pay much attention to it but now that I am having feed problems it bugs me. I will try to take some shortly...

jsbcody
07-13-09, 00:53
I have bought two SIGs in the last year:

1. 229 GEN II SAS .40: one of the screw holes for the grips was out of spec allowing a creaking noise when gripping pistol and also had a small opening in back strap which would catch skin when shooting. Due to being out of spec, I couldn't put any other grips on it. SIG CS would do nothing about it. Pistol is gone now.
2. 226 Blackwater Tactical 9mm: shipped out with a single strand recoil spring instead of triple strand spring. Take down lever actually broke in half. At this point I only had 100 rounds through before its trip back to be repaired. This pistol is gone now.
3. Buddy bought a brand new (May 2009 date) 226 .40. It had the worst trigger I have ever felt on a SIG, was extremely gritty. Department Armorer took it apart. The trigger was rusted, corroded, and just plain nasty rough. My buddy is till dealing with SIG on this one.

I carry an 8 year old .229 .40 on duty that has and is fantastic. After what I have seen from SIG this year, I won't be buying anymore. I traded in the two above pistols for an G22RTF (very good pistol) and a H&K P2000 V3 .40 (GREAT pistol!). The H&K is my off duty carry now and I am planning on getting a P200SK now.

HK45
07-13-09, 12:15
My .02 cents;

I used to be very big into Sigs. But won't buy one now.

Sig used to be priced correctly because of their quality level. Since QC and parts quality has slipped they are now overpriced. Plus I find their designs to be outdated compared to the newer HK's or to M&P's.

"226 Blackwater Tactical 9mm: shipped out with a single strand recoil spring instead of triple strand spring."

Oh, that sucks. They really are cheaping out.

HK45
07-13-09, 12:19
Well yeah thats what we would call an intelligence indicator in the USMC. Or in IT a data point.



A lot of the blame regarding QC is focused upon current management and their connections with Kimber. YMMV.