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JSandi
07-19-09, 02:24
WINTER HAVEN | The Police Department is ditching $38,000 worth of guns after two .45-caliber GAP Glock Model 37 pistols exploded in separate training incidents a year a part, causing minor injuries to an officer and a cadet.

"I've been around 34 years in law enforcement, and we've seen malfunctioning with guns, but never seen it explode," Police Chief Mark LeVine said.

"When I've got two guns out of 90 mess up, something's wrong."

The department has not had any problems with the guns during use in the line of duty.

The force of the explosions came down through the bottom of the guns and blew the triggers off, LeVine said.

Police Officer Frank Scianimanico, 32, and then-cadet Rodrique Jean-Louis, 20, suffered bruised fingers in the separate incidents.

As a result, the department will try an all-metal gun as a possible replacement for the plastic Glock during weapons testing Tuesday and March 20.

LeVine issued a memo Feb. 1 to his officers saying that if anyone was uncomfortable carrying the Glock they could carry a personal weapon instead, as long as the gun meets the department's requirements.

The department tried to work out a solution with Glock. The gun's Georgia-based manufacturer offered to swap out the nearly 2 1/2-year-old guns if the department paid the company $10,000.

But LeVine said that is unfair.

"I personally question if it should cost us anything at all," the chief said.

A Glock spokesman said the company is aware of the Winter Haven incidents, but hasn't had the opportunity to examine the guns yet.

"Without looking at the pistol, there's no way for us to make a determination," said Glock spokesman Carlos Guevara.

FIRST EXPLOSION

The first incident occurred in January 2007 when a Glock exploded while being used by Jean-Louis, a former cadet the department was sponsoring at the Polk Community College Kenneth C. Thompson Institute of Public Safety, which trains prospective police officers.

Department officials dismissed the incident as the fault of bad ammunition, and so did Glock.

The second incident, the one involving Scianiamancio, was this January during training at the department's shooting range at the Winter Haven Airport.

"We had another explode in the same fashion," LeVine said. "We've only got 90 guns, and two failed. It has caused a certain amount of uneasiness."

The issue seems to be with the gun, which only Glock makes, LeVine said.

The Polk County Sheriff's Office uses a different Glock, the .40-caliber Model 22 pistol, but there haven't been any incidents with it, said spokeswoman Carrie Rodgers.

The Sheriff's Office switched last year to the Glocks after using Smith & Wessons. The Glocks cost the agency $350 per gun, compared with $560 for the .45-caliber Smith & Wessons deputies were using.

"They're easier to fire, more accurate, and they hold more ammunition," Rodgers said.

Lake Alfred Police Chief Art Bodenheimer said he would never let his officers use a Glock after he saw a video demonstration of one being partially disassembled after being jammed.

His officers use Smith & Wessons instead, because it is an all-metal gun, compared to the plastic Glock, he said.

"I'm not a Glock enthusiast," Bodenheimer said.

The Winter Haven Police Department isn't the only one that has had problem with Glocks. At least two other law enforcement agencies have reported issues.

elsewhere in u.s.

Two .45-caliber Glock Model 21 pistols exploded in the hands of two officers at the Portland Police Department, according to a 2004 article in The Oregonian newspaper. That department then switched to 9 mm Glocks.

In 2006, The Oregonian reported an officer who was injured when his gun exploded filed a multi-million-dollar lawsuit against Glock and the ammunition manufacturer.

In Pennsylvania, a training officer with the Upper Darby Township Police Department said his department used to carry the Glock Model 21 before it started jamming.

The department is now testing a different model of Glock. "We can't get a reason why it keeps happening," he said.

Guevara said Glock's guns aren't defective, and malfunctioning incidents at other agencies are attributed to ammunition or maintenance of the guns.

And the fact that the Portland Police Department switched to a different Glock model is an indication of how good Glock guns are, Guevara said.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20080313/NEWS/803130481/1004

RyanB
07-19-09, 02:42
I notice a pattern...

Greg Bell
07-19-09, 02:46
There are few 9mms better, if any, than the Glock 17. Glocks in all other calibers are...eh.

ZDL
07-19-09, 02:54
***********

moonshot
07-19-09, 03:23
Opinions on the G26?

Going4Broke
07-19-09, 04:02
Well my buddies Glock 45 acp blew up on him. Luckily he was wearing safety glasses and only received minor facial cuts and a few bad ones on his hand. Came to learn many people have had the same and several PD's also, not just the two mentioned. I have only heard of 1 model 17 blowing up.

NCPatrolAR
07-19-09, 04:20
I wonder which "all metal" pistol they will be going to? The Beretta 92/90-Two perhaps?

EzGoingKev
07-19-09, 06:45
This dates back to March I believe.

riddlin
07-19-09, 06:50
http://http://www.theledger.com/article/20080314/NEWS/803140389/1134

WINTER HAVEN | The company that manufactures the ammunition for the .45-caliber GAP Glock Model 37 is taking responsibility for guns exploding during two separate training incidents, slightly injuring a Winter Haven police officer and a former police cadet.

spokesman for Speer Gold Dot, the manufacturer of the ammunition, said Thursday that a batch of bullets sent to the Winter Haven department was defective.

Speer Gold Dot said after the first incident in January 2007 it recalled the bullets sent to Winter Haven but that some of the ammunition remained at the department and was used when the second incident occurred earlier this year.

Winter Haven Police Chief Mark LeVine confirmed Thursday that Speer Gold Dot had recalled the bullets after the first failure. He said some of the ammunition was kept unknowingly and a bullet from that batch was involved in the second explosion.

LeVine said he's not convinced that the ammunition was the only problem and he still has concerns about the Glock handguns.

LeVine told The Ledger on Wednesday that the department was discontinuing use of the GAP Glock Model 37 because of concerns about safety.

A Glock spokesman on Wednesday said the company stood by the quality of its products, but that it hadn't been able to examine the firearms in the Winter Haven incidents and could not say whether there were any problems with them.

Glock has said that any problems with its firearms are the result of the ammunition in use or poor maintenance of the weapons.

On Thursday, a spokesman for Speer Gold Dot said the bullets, not the guns, caused the Winter Haven explosions.

"I made 500 bad cartridges and I shipped them to the Winter Haven Police Department," said Ernest Durnham, cartridge engineer for Speer.

"If I had a problem with my product, then I'll be completely honest with my customer," he said. "And I think that's why Speer Gold is the No. 1 market leader."

Durham said he reviewed quality-control records and concluded the batch the Winter Haven Police Department received should not have been sent.

The Winter Haven Police Department was the only law enforcement agency to receive the bad ammunition, he said.

"The goal of any factory is to have zero defects," Durham said. "My ammunition defect rate is less than 1 in 50 million."

In the Winter Haven incidents, police Officer Frank Scianimanico, 32, and Rodrique Jean-Louis, 20, a former cadet at the Polk Community College Kenneth C. Thompson Institute of Public Safety, suffered bruised fingers. The first occurred in January 2007 and the second in January this year.

LeVine sent a memo in February to his officers saying they could use their own weapons, as long as they met the department's requirements, until the agency buys replacements.

The Police Department will test other weapons next week.

Some agencies have reported problems with Glock products and others have said they have not encountered any problems.

The Portland, Ore., Police Department was once involved in litigation with Glock after two .45-caliber Glock Model 21 pistols exploded in the hands of two officers, Portland Police Sgt. Brian Schmautz said.

City officials there spent a lot of money to investigate the matter but have since resolved the issue with Glock and the department now uses a 9mm Glock.

"Our training division was satisfied with the transition," he said. "(Glock) accepted no liability for what occurred so we moved on."

In a separate litigation, one of the injured Portland police officers filed a multimillion-dollar lawsuit against Glock and the ammunition manufacturer. The lawsuit hasn't been resolved.

The Polk County Sheriff's Office switched to a Glock .40-caliber Model 22 pistol, and there haven't been any incidents with it, said spokeswoman Carrie Rodgers.

[ Merissa Green can be reached at merissa.green@theledger.com or 863-401-6968. ]

Iraqgunz
07-19-09, 07:33
riddlin,

Thanks for posting that because that is exactly where I was going. I guess more and more people are abandoning common sense when it comes to stuff like this and they would rather toss away guns that have a an overall record that is good.

The first thing that jumped out at me in the first article is why they didn't send the weapons to Glock for examination. Equally Glock could have sent someone there to examine them as well.

Did it ever occur to anyone involved that a "kaboom" is many times linked to the ammo and not the weapon? Apparently not.

So they want to switch to an all metal firearm. Sounds good as well know that they won't explode either if a bad batch of ammo is used. :rolleyes:

Cold Zero
07-19-09, 07:36
Doesn't Glock recomend not shooting reloads out of their guns ?

Could that be the reason they were not sent back to Glock?:eek:

The_War_Wagon
07-19-09, 07:48
1911's, 1911's, 1911's... HEY - I can DREAM, can't I? :p

Iraqgunz
07-19-09, 08:05
I must have missed the part about the reloads. As best as I can recall almost every firearm I have owned recommended not using reloads as a simple CTA measure in the even that Elmer Fudd decides to load some super hot zombie killer rounds that blow up.

I saw a .454 Casul one time that had been overloaded and the entire cylinder, top strap and frame area behind the cylinder was wrecked. There is no doubt in my mind that someone got hurt. Was it the "all steel" guns fault? No.


Doesn't Glock recomend not shooting reloads out of their guns ?

Could that be the reason they were not sent back to Glock?:eek:

Going4Broke
07-19-09, 09:29
Most all gun blow ups are a result of the ammunition whether it is a reload or factory overload issue. The problem is that it happens to Glocks more than any other gun by a large margin as far as I am aware. One of the reasons is due to the lack of full case support over the feed ramps on the large caliber Glocks. This is one reason why the 9mm have not had this issue. Another is that their chamber mouths are slightly oversized to help with reliable feeding. Glock will never take responsibility for their guns blowing up for the fact that the reason is because of the ammo. However, their design is in my mind what causes these blow ups should an overload occur. Glock is a good gun, but I will never own one. When my best friends blew up on him, Glock's CS was horrible and they treated him very badly.

RogerinTPA
07-19-09, 09:58
So Glocks DO explode! J/K!

Thanks for posting the Gold Dot article riddlin. That was a very honorable thing for Speer to do.

Business_Casual
07-19-09, 10:45
1911's, 1911's, 1911's... HEY - I can DREAM, can't I? :p

I shoot a lot of rounds out of Glocks every year. The only kaboom I have ever experienced was in a Wilson Combat CQB.

Which is a 1911, by the way.

Here's a picture:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/glock23carry/blowncase.jpg

Clearly it was a case failure.

M_P

Heavy Metal
07-19-09, 11:31
Most all gun blow ups are a result of the ammunition whether it is a reload or factory overload issue. The problem is that it happens to Glocks more than any other gun by a large margin as far as I am aware. One of the reasons is due to the lack of full case support over the feed ramps on the large caliber Glocks. This is one reason why the 9mm have not had this issue. Another is that their chamber mouths are slightly oversized to help with reliable feeding. Glock will never take responsibility for their guns blowing up for the fact that the reason is because of the ammo. However, their design is in my mind what causes these blow ups should an overload occur. Glock is a good gun, but I will never own one. When my best friends blew up on him, Glock's CS was horrible and they treated him very badly.

Another reason more Glocks blow-up is there are simply more in hard use.

CarlosDJackal
07-19-09, 11:52
They somehow glossed over this little tidbit (from the original article):
Department officials dismissed the incident as the fault of bad ammunition, and so did Glock.

I wonder why they did not bother to verify this one way or another?

The only kB I've ever had was with my Glock 30 (which have over 20k rounds through it). In my case the cause was a reload I had accidentally double-charged (Win 231 powder) due to a dirty reloader. I have 9 Glocks and two of my .40s (Glock 23 & 35) have quite a few thousand rounds through them without a single issue.

geminidglocker
07-19-09, 12:17
Opinions on the G26?

I absolutely love mine. I reduced the backstrap and did a stippling job on mine. I have owned the 17 and the 19 as well. Simple fact is I shoot the 26 just as well as the other 2 in close quarter double tap scenarios. I must admit, I shoot atleast three times a week to stay sharp, my ammo budget for the Glock is 125.00 a month. I use my GI Bill money for guns and stuff. Concealability is paramount for me, even though I live in Vermont where you can pretty much carry however you like. Speer makes a great short barrel pistol round that I can put into a four inch group @ 25yds, slow-fire ofcourse. I used the +2 extensions by peirce. I stippled these to match the frame. The model number is 2733 on the extensions. I also have Trijicons on my weapon. I outshoot some of my friends that have 19's. Usually though, after a little instruction on proper grip and trigger control, they catch up. Did I mention I love my 26. I agree that the Glock is at it's best when in the model 17, or it's derivatives, the19 and the 26. Nine is cheap to shoot so I get more trigger time.

moonshot
07-19-09, 13:51
My feeling as well. I've got a lot of time on the G17 and the G19, and I actually think I prefer the 26. It looks better, I have no need for the rail, and when I took weapon retention training, I found the short barrel/slide gave less for the "gun grabber" to hold on to, while I had pretty good control (especially with a G19 mag inserted).

For CCW, it may be the best Glock out there. You can make the 26 into a bigger gun (use G19 or G17 mag, even use a G19 barrel), but you can't make a G19 or G17 smaller (without a saw). I've thought about removing the finger groves and stippling mine, but haven't yet - no money and I can't decide who should do it.

I asked my question because I often see glowing reports of how absolutely wonderful the G17 is, and often those who know will extoll the virtues of the G17 and the G19 as the finest 9mm's out there, but no one ever mentions the G26.

Thanks for the input.

ROSS4712
07-19-09, 14:53
riddlin,

Thanks for posting that because that is exactly where I was going. I guess more and more people are abandoning common sense when it comes to stuff like this and they would rather toss away guns that have a an overall record that is good.

The first thing that jumped out at me in the first article is why they didn't send the weapons to Glock for examination. Equally Glock could have sent someone there to examine them as well.

Did it ever occur to anyone involved that a "kaboom" is many times linked to the ammo and not the weapon? Apparently not.

So they want to switch to an all metal firearm. Sounds good as well know that they won't explode either if a bad batch of ammo is used. :rolleyes:

DITTO! We are a department with over 320 sworn officers and use G17/19/26, G22/23/27, G21/21SF. Any and all Glock problems have been with ammo. The last was a squib round from Remington 9mm yellow box. I don't discount that there has been other issues with some Glocks that are mechanical issues that had to be repaired or replaced by Glock but if there is a Kaboom the ammo will be an involved factor.

We have had numerous problems with our ammo manufacter that supplies us and regardless of the issues they always say that it has passed minimum standards and a few bad rounds out of the batches are tolerated. They know that there will be some slip ups with the ammo when it is made in the millions per weeks/months. I know other departments armorers that have had ammo manufacturers know a bad batch went out and just let it ride not telling the agency they have purchased thousands of dollars of bad ammo.

On Swat we had a bad batch of flash bangs that the manufacturer knew were made with a bad batch of powder. They sounded like black cat firecrackers going off. When we addressed this with them they stated that they knew we got a possible bad batch and instead of calling us and let us know and replace it they let us hit a few hard targets with firecrackers instead of the real deal.

We have been using those models for over 15 years and have had no major issues. My last duty G21 had 25K through it and my competition G21 had 15K through it. I have 5K through both my duty and competition G21SF's I have recently recieved.

DON"T DRINK THE HATER-AID JUST YET FELLAS!

I've seen Sig's, Berreta's and Smith's go Kaboom......all ammo related.

M4arc
07-19-09, 16:06
Opinions on the G26?

The G26 is an outstanding little handgun. I'm wearing mine now and in my opinion it's the perfect CCW. Stick to the 9mm Glocks and you can't go wrong.

That said, and to make this post applicable to the thread, guns don't just explode. It takes bad or double charged ammo to explode. I had a Kaboom in my H&K USP 9mm several years back because of a bad reload. It happens to all calibers and all platforms.

ZDL
07-19-09, 17:35
***********

BIGUGLY
07-21-09, 16:11
I may not like my Glocks but they are mandatory. I trust them with my life.

JHC
07-21-09, 20:30
Own 3 G19s, 2 G17s and a 17L. All superb and shot a lot except the 17L doesn't get worked very hard. But it's all Glock 9 for me and no worries.

RojasTKD
07-21-09, 20:52
Most all gun blow ups are a result of the ammunition whether it is a reload or factory overload issue. The problem is that it happens to Glocks more than any other gun by a large margin as far as I am aware

There are also a lot of Department that issue Glocks. That is likely one reason why it "happens to Glocks more...".

I would never shoot reloads out of a Glock.


One of the reasons is due to the lack of full case support over the feed ramps on the large caliber Glocks.

I believe that is a contributing factor as well.

When it come to Law Enforcement I believe maintenance can be a big issue. When I was a LEO I heard of stories of officers having there gun seized into their holster and couldn't get it out at his once a year mandatory qualifier.

Irish
07-21-09, 20:58
Whatever happened to determining the root cause of the problem??? The PD should reevaluate how they determine the solution to a problem.

Skintop911
07-21-09, 21:54
Whatever happened to determining the root cause of the problem??? The PD should reevaluate how they determine the solution to a problem.

That would limit their ability to point fingers, advance personal agendas, and mug for the newsbabes on Live at 5.

What fun would meaningful contemplation, deliberate research, and cooperation with manufacturers be?

(Also an affliction of more than one of those agencies in the article also alleged to have problems.)

JSantoro
07-22-09, 00:34
That would limit their ability to point fingers, advance personal agendas

Like holding out their hands for all-new guns. They let Glock test the things and confirm that it was the ammo, they have no leverage to get free stuff in the face of what's most likely a dwindling budget.

As it is, even if Speer has rogered up to it, they can still claim that it hasn't been conclusively proven that it wasn't the guns themselves. We may see more articles from this department.

HK45
07-22-09, 15:59
Then there would also be lots of Glock 9mms "exploding" "blowing up" or "kabooming" yet there aren't.

Not many police firearms see hard use.

The author of the original article sure likes to use the word explode in various forms doesn't he?

So many of the reports of such things here say the Police decided on a course of action without having the vendor look at the issue.

I like that they think all metal pistols will solve the issue. Or that their Glock 22's are free of issues.

Yet another reason I don't think much of the GAP round as if I needed any more.

FWIW I have shot a lot of Glock .40 and never had an issue so I don't exactly jump all over Glocks and the kaboom phenomenon but if I was going to use .40 I would got with an M&P.


Another reason more Glocks blow-up is there are simply more in hard use.

crusader377
07-22-09, 16:58
I don't pretend to be a expert on Glocks but I do know that the 9mm Glocks do have the best reputation among the Glocks for reliability and durability.

I wonder why the police department in question adopted the Glock 37 chambered in the .45 GAP which is an expensive round that is not in widespread use?

They probably should of just went with the Glock 17 or 19 in 9mm which is very well proven pistol or one of the .40 cal versions.

jp0319
07-22-09, 23:01
I notice a pattern...

You notice a pattern? How may glocks are in the hands of law enforcement and military agencies world wide, and how many documented major falures have there been? I would still trust my life to all of my glocks, 9mm and .40. If any problem exists is would seem to be with the .45 caliber models, the problem with the GAP is the pressures trying to get .45 acp performance out of a cartrige with less powder capacity = high pressure. and the fact that the cases arent fully supported as previously mentioned, which by it self suggests ammo failure, Speer designed the cartridge.