View Full Version : Why not Sig?
I have noticed a number of reputable individuals in this forum saying that they would not recommend a new Sig. After spending some time searching old threads, I see that there are extractor issues with the P220 and that nobody seems to like the p250 in general. There have also been a few complaints about beavertailed models lowering the grip. Otherwise, I have noticed a number of nonspecific comments such as 'their quality has gotten worse and people are having problems.'
I was wondering what these issues specifically were.
I have a Sig P226 with SRT in .40 made in early 2007. I have put several thousand rounds through it, and it has experienced one failure to feed. I don't mind the beavertail, as it helps guide my grip. I don't think it significantly effects the height of my grip either, because I can wedge the web between my thumb and index finger against it a lot harder than I can with the standard short tail. In any case, the end result is a gun that gets back on target quickly and shoots quite fast for a .40.
In my hands, the p226 is noticeably more accurate, recoils less, has a better trigger, and shoots faster (with accuracy) than the popular glock 22. The reliability has been excellent (although it does need to be kept wet). In terms of durability, I have read from several sources that military and LE 22x's can go in excess of 100,000 rounds. I realize that one person's opinion and experience means very little, but given my experience I was very surprised to hear the negative opinions.
I am far from married to sigs, .40 s&w, or the p226. In fact, I rarely carry it and it is the only Sig I own or plan to own. Overall, I lean towards different brands in different calibers but I still feel like this is a great firearm. I was very surprised to learn about the low opinion people here have about new Sigs, especially in light of Sig winning the DHS contract in 2004. Thank you all in advance for clarifying this for me.
Serpico1985
07-28-09, 01:52
I don't know. I have a 220 Combat and really like it. Simple, reliable, accurate. If you want some sig lovin try hanging out over on the Sigforum. Haha.
I just purchased a sig 228 (one of the new railed versions) and the biggest difference I notice is in the trigger. It used to be that sig triggers were all 10 pounds double action and smooth as butter with a decent 4.4 single action pull (this is also what they list in their spec sheets). We tested mine out of the box with a lyman trigger gauge ( 5 pulls for each action and took the average). Double action tested in at 11 pounds 5.5 ounces and single came in at 6 pounds .5 ounces. We put a 17 pound main spring and polished some of the parts and got it down to about 9 pounds 9 ounces double (and it felt smooth) and 5 pounds 5 ounces single. There is still a bit of creep but I wanted to shoot the gun a bit before we did anything else.
it is extremely accurate like a sig should be, and the rail is nice to have, but if my friend didn't know so much about sigs and doing trigger work I would have bought an HK instead.
No manufacturer produces a handgun which regularly goes 100,000 rounds without significant problem. Can a 9mm SIG, properly cared for, go to 100,000 rounds if you're a little lucky? Absolutely. Ditto Glock, HK, etc.
I've personally handled a pre-'05 357 SIG P229 that had over 100,000 rounds through it and the only two breakages it experienced were a broken decocker spring (does not affect combat function in a meaningful way) and a broken trigger bar (disabled the gun, easy to replace). However, that same agency regularly had more guns that cracked before 20k than they had guns make it to 100k.
If your P226 has made it this far without trouble, odds are it will last you the rest of your life if you treat it well.
QC issues don't equate to "every gun sucks." It just means that the odds of having a gun that experiences a problem out of the box increases, and the odds of having a gun that develops a problem earlier in its life increases.
I'll add my two cents since my working guns are mostly Sig P-Series pistols, and I've put a lot of rounds through old and new, German and US made in training and practice.
I think quality has fallen off in just little ways that don't generally make a huge difference, but they do have an impact. For example, I have to old P228's (one 1993, 1994). They're both west german proofed. They are lighter, slightly better balanced (that's subjective, but I hear it often enough from others who have also shot both a lot). The triggers are excellent. Way better than what I'm shooting on new guns. I've had a couple of 229's recently that were fine as a working gun, but not quite as nice. I had a 229R (.40) that was perfectly reliable, but the trigger was so bad I got rid of it. I have a very recent 229 Generation 2 SAS (9mm) that is outstanding in fit, finish, ergos. The SRT reset is great. The machine work and slide are like a true Sig. And unfortunately, the DA trigger feels like 10 miles of gravel road. Horrible. But the gun works great. Well, that one goes the Bruce Gray I guess.
Maybe I was spoiled by the old guns. There's nothing really wrong with the new ones. They just seem not QUITE as good. It annoys me that I have to send a top-line gun from an already high-end manufacturer to a gunsmith. But I still train hard on them, and still put my money(life?) behind the new sig. That being said, I carry the old 228's most of the time...
Finally, the 220 thing was a mess for them. Supposedly fixed, but I've only owned 9mm, and .40 cal P-Series pistols.
I do think they've heard and are trying to come back up to the line. We'll see if that happens. I just sent a P228 back for AEP, SRT, and SSP. I'll post what that comes back like.
I have been looking at a p220 carry with the shorter slide, but full size frame.I have had a few Sigs, all were German weapons,I have a p230 coded year make 1994 and it has been a great little carry gun .But I want the .45..MMMMMM what to do:confused:
My issued P229R DAK is a DHS issued Sig. This is my 2nd one in 3 years. We have had quite a few with issues both at my field office and academy. I can't comment on the Sigs available to the public, but the DHS contract models seem to have been put together with very little quality control. The majority seem to be broken firing pins and or springs. Mine developed a cracked barrel after about 2000 rounds. The sad thing is that Sig will be the only handguns we will be able to carry for duty. Our agency is phasing out all other personally owned weapons and we will not be able to carry H&K or Glocks anymore.
Thanks all for your replies.
It seems the message is that the Sig P22x is a great design, but that design is no longer being implemented as meticulously as it once was. That's a real shame, because its the only gun that I've ever liked chambered in .40 (although I have not given the m&p .40 a try yet). I suppose I should just be thankful that mine works... at least so far :rolleyes:
It is closing on 2010, the P Series was THE pistol standard in 1990, unfortunately for SIG they have rested on their laurels and not kept up with the demands of the market and the innovations of their competitors.
kornbread402
07-29-09, 00:27
My Department has issued the sig 229 .40 since 1998. The older guns, mine included have had very few to no issues. In the last two years the newer issue sigs have had to be replaced due to breakages with our guys in the academy. So I’ll side with the lack of q.c these days.
Shadow1198
07-29-09, 02:03
It is closing on 2010, the P Series was THE pistol standard in 1990, unfortunately for SIG they have rested on their laurels and not kept up with the demands of the market and the innovations of their competitors.
To a degree, sounds just like another German company that begins with a P and ends with a orsche (and I'm a die hard fan of theirs). ;)
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-29-09, 03:30
Just got back from the range shooting my SIG X-5 Tactical. That really is a nice gun. I got it used, and it has probably close to 3000 rounds on it. My standard 9mm P226 is just vanilla, OK trigger, long reset and goes bang everytime. From Todd's comments on an earlier thread, I took it that the X-5s are German made and hand fitted, and like $1400 new, so that is a really different market.
It seems like since the Sig P22X platform is all metal and milled, it is at an inherent price disadvantage, and rather selling on the strengths, they just cut corneres to try to get prices and margins where they want?
Besides the X-5 guns, are there any other models that a publicly available that get the right amount of TLC?
tango-papa
07-29-09, 11:36
...are there any other models that a publicly available that get the right amount of TLC?
I've had pretty good luck in locating NOS (New Old Stock) P220's and P245's.
I like the classic carbon steel, all German made models.
The dealer who has supplied my quest for these is an FFL in the Detroit area - Yatin Patel.
I discovered/met Yatin via the classified section at SIGforum and I recommend him with no reservations whatsoever.
http://www.patelsrepair.com/D/
If/when you contact him, tell him his favorite customer in Texas sent you.
If he asks "who?", tell him I said... "You may all go to Hell, and I will go to Texas." :D
~tp
Our P226 .40S&W are 9 years old, so take that into account. All of our pistols (60 or so) are around the 100,000+ mark on average. Mine happens to be in the 300K+ area. Have replaced just about everything twice. I have broken a hammer strut, trigger bar, and trigger bar spring x2. Frame is still going and looks in very good condition, even the rail areas. The magwell has seen better days. Other than normal wear and tear, or from part breakage, I can count only a handful of failures. This is pretty much the same with all of our P226's. Pretty darn good track record from the earlier models at least. :)
Haven't dealt a whole lot with the newer offerings, but our PD is looking at allowing the 250 for off duty use. We have also done an abbreviated T&E on a 220 as a possible replacement for our aging P226's.
Our P226 .40S&W are 9 years old, so take that into account. All of our pistols (60 or so) are around the 100,000+ mark on average. Mine happens to be in the 300K+ area. Have replaced just about everything twice. I have broken a hammer strut, trigger bar, and trigger bar spring x2. Frame is still going and looks in very good condition, even the rail areas. The magwell has seen better days. Other than normal wear and tear, or from part breakage, I can count only a handful of failures. This is pretty much the same with all of our P226's. Pretty darn good track record from the earlier models at least. :)
Haven't dealt a whole lot with the newer offerings, but our PD is looking at allowing the 250 for off duty use. We have also done an abbreviated T&E on a 220 as a possible replacement for our aging P226's.
You put 300,000 rounds through a Sig 226 in nine years!!!
What PD do you work for?
I carried an older 228 for a few years and had ZERO issues with it. I think the gun probably had around 5,000 rounds through it when I stopped carrying it.
I own an old 1991 production stamped-slide 226 that has had...you guessed it...ZERO issues. I changed out the slide pins and springs ever 3,000 rounds. That gun has around 15,000 rounds through it right now. It shows very little wear (because it was put together right at the factory). It remains my favorite gun although I don't carry it at work due to the lack of my department issuing a decent 9mm round.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y156/KevH/P1010265.jpg
I've also owned a few of their newer pistols. My 220ST didn't give me any grief, but I think I only had around 800 rounds through it before I sold it off. There were way too many folks having extractor issues with these guns and I wasn't going to wait for them to develop in mine.
I also owned a 2022 made in Germany with the Ilaflon finish. No issues with that gun either.
I have seen co-workers and other departments that have had pre-mature wear issues on the frame rails as well as extraction issues. One local PD had to send a whole batch of guns back to the factory due to the barrels being out of spec. The problems with the newer guns is NOT due to the design, but rather the factory fitting in my opinion. I blame low quality control in the US facility as well as worldwide outsourcing of parts on some of the "issues" with the newer production guns.
Our P226 .40S&W are 9 years old, so take that into account. All of our pistols (60 or so) are around the 100,000+ mark on average. Mine happens to be in the 300K+ area.
Dude, please do not take this personally, I'd say it to my best friend: the only way I'm going to believe you have 300,000 rounds through a .40-cal SIG without needing to replace the frame, slide, and/or barrel is to see a verifiable log of ammo shot through it on a by-day basis.
And for the record, I'd say the same exact thing if it were a G19 or any other gun. Not because it's impossible, but because it's highly improbable.
If you do have the kind of documentation I'm talking about, forget about proving it to me ... contact SIG immediately because I guarantee they want to display that gun at SHOT Show.
John_Wayne777
07-29-09, 20:45
Our P226 .40S&W are 9 years old, so take that into account. All of our pistols (60 or so) are around the 100,000+ mark on average. Mine happens to be in the 300K+ area.
...are you sure you meant to type 300,000 rounds? Are you sure you don't mean like thirty thousand rounds and not three HUNDRED thousand rounds?
Even 100,000 rounds is a LOT...like a huge ungodly iron-man amount of rounds for a single handgun to live through without some sort of major failure. To rack up 100,000 rounds in 9 years would require averaging over 900 rounds fired through the weapons per month. I know some switched on PDs....but I don't know of any that have everybody shooting 900 rounds a month.
My issue gun is a P226 in .357 that is about 2 years old. Has about 3000 rounds through it with no issues. We have about 60 P226s (some in 9mm and some in .357) and none have had any issues. Ours have the DAK trigger which I'm not a big fan of. I would prefer a Glock 21 or 35 if I was given the choice as I have both and shoot them better with speed. In sum, I like the Glock better but not because of any quality issues with Sigs. Frankly, in my experience the newer guns are more accurate and have better triggers. YMMV
Unfortunantley this has become an all to common topic on the web. I have thought about it a great deal as SIG's were an early favorite of mine and I was and am a solid devotee.
Part of it is that there are definitely seems to be more issues out of current production SIG's compared to earlier models. And that can somewhat be directly linked to increased production numbers but also outsourcing parts, less costly QC on those parts, limiting or eliminating test firing allows SIG to lower their cost structure and be profitable. I remember reading how Todd said they were near insolvency before Cohen came over & I understand they had to figure a way to inexpensively sell product against competitors with much lower cost structures like Glock or the M&P. Without condoning it, their moves have been ingenious.
Part of it is their marketing I counted 17 different versions of the 226 where most of the differences are cosmetic changes such as grips, sights, and finishes. (And don't get me started on the 226 Navy model.) While limiting the number of totally new models & SKUs they have tremendously broadened their product offerings. I remember when people lamented that they could not get a rail on a SIG.
Well we got it in spades and we also got production that was more centered on moving volume at a lower cost instead of the QC that we were used to from SIG Sauer in the commercial channel. It makes me a little sad to see the direction SIG has taken, I understand it, but still it still makes me a little sad.
Don't get me wrong I don't think they make bad pistols by any account, I would not feel under armed carrying any of their models. It is just that I justified the higher prices of a SIG knowing the QC that was invested in it. And by the fact I could take that pistol and know it was going to work right out of the box. Now I really can't say that unless I have pressure tested it with 1k rounds.
And if that is the case I sometimes question why I am spending the premium that SIG's demand. Instead I can pick up a $500 M&P or Glock & generally have higher capacity and lower weight. HK still demands that QC premium and I will pay it for the quality that they put out and uniqueness of their models.
I have owned just about every Classic SIG, GSR, & SIG PRO that has been built. Despite the plethora of models they seem to incessantly pump out I have run out of reasons to buy a new 226, or 229, or 220. How many variations of each model do you really need?
I laid away a German 228R today and it was the only SIG that right now I have any real interest in. Maybe I have just accepted that polymer guns solve my problems better, or maybe the reasons that I used to love SIG so much have just diminished somewhat.
Part of it is their marketing I counted 17 different versions of the 226 where most of the differences are cosmetic changes such as grips, sights, and finishes.
I have owned just about every Classic SIG, GSR, & SIG PRO that has been built. Despite the plethora of models they seem to incessantly pump out I have run out of reasons to buy a new 226, or 229, or 220. How many variations of each model do you really need?
That is part of their problem. They make too many variations when they could be focusing on quality.
Their product line is now geared toward bubba rather than real users. Too much two tone, three tone, colored bullshit. To many "special editions" to appease bubba.
Sig mosquito is a disaster along with the 556.
The P250 is way too wide on a product line that is wide to begin with.
Makes me want to vomit.
I have owned 4 Sigs, 2 P239s, one when they first came out ,the other a new sas gen2, a German P229 and a Mosquito. The 229 rocks , its trigger is super smooth maybe it had a trigger job as I bought it used. I shoot better with this hand gun than any other that I own.The first 239 was a good pistol with no problems in over 10k rds, I traded it for the sas with the srt trigger. I like the srt, but the double action pull is gritty. It has gotten better with about 800rds through it, but I may still send it to Gray guns for a trigger job. It is acurate . The fit and finish is nvery good but I am not a fan of the Nitron finish though. The Mosquito was a tempermental piece of shit. Not acurate or reliable, and the trigger was the worst of any hand gun I ever shot. I traded it for a Ruger .22 target modle that I absolutly love. So the only thing I really could complain about is the D/A trigger on the new 239.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-29-09, 23:12
Their product line is now geared toward bubba rather than real users. Too much two tone, three tone, colored bullshit. To many "special editions" to appease bubba.
I got my X-five Tac because I got a good deal on it, plus it had mag and caliber commonality with my current P226. When I started looking at getting into USPSA and IDPA, the X-fives aren't in a good space spec wise for these games. Now not a huge thing, but why spend all that time developing the product line when it isn't going to be accepted by a lot of the gamers?? Tough problem for Sig. They are kind of in the middle with the Tupper-ware undercutting them, and whacked 1911s on top of them. They bring out the P250 and we all seem to turn out noses up at it, frankly, I've never picked it up. Hope they stay viable, otherwise we'll be hearing for the next 30 years about how great even the ones we knock are.
Hopefully they win enough contracts and get in enough movies that Bubbas and afficiando's can keep them afloat.
You know the 250 could have really been a good tool. I eagerly awaited it and was utterly shocked when I got to pull the trigger on it. You have to fully release the trigger for it to reset. It is a smooth 5lb pull but I found it to be an invitation to short stroke it under stress.
It is closing on 2010, the P Series was THE pistol standard in 1990, unfortunately for SIG they have rested on their laurels and not kept up with the demands of the market and the innovations of their competitors.
I agree to a point. IMO, part of the problem is that they DID try to meet their idea of market demand. They departed from the classic series guns and went into bling land and whatnot with all of the funky color/finish/grip options etc etc.
I wonder if the enthusiasts' perception of quality would be better if they just stuck to the basics with the Classic line, and then branched out just the SIGPro..?
I agree to a point. IMO, part of the problem is that they DID try to meet their idea of market demand. They departed from the classic series guns and went into bling land and whatnot with all of the funky color/finish/grip options etc etc.
I wonder if the enthusiasts' perception of quality would be better if they just stuck to the basics with the Classic line, and then branched out just the SIGPro..?
I agree.
Try an M&P in .40. Walks all over the Sig and most other .40's IMHO.
Sig is no longer worth the premium they charge for their pistols. In addition to weaker quality control I am under the impression that their parts quality is not what it was either.
The beavertail actually forces my hand down lower, many people I know say the same thing and are mystified as to why Sig implemented it this way. Unless its just another do-dad they slapped on like so many other things lately. Sig needs a refresh of their product line and neither the P250 or chrome P-series are it.
About the only factory pistol I'm willing to pay premium prices for these days are HK. They have their own customer service issues. But their quality is top notch.
Thanks all for your replies.
It seems the message is that the Sig P22x is a great design, but that design is no longer being implemented as meticulously as it once was. That's a real shame, because its the only gun that I've ever liked chambered in .40 (although I have not given the m&p .40 a try yet). I suppose I should just be thankful that mine works... at least so far :rolleyes:
Exactly. Its a basic tenet of manufacturing that variation produces less quality unless you step up quality control. Since quality control costs money in time and resources and Sig is now obviously focusing on profits above all, including their reputation, it is not surprising that customers are unhappy. I cannot imagine that this shift in thinking is not going to hurt them in the long term. Once you have lost your reputation its very hard to get it back.
That is part of their problem. They make too many variations when they could be focusing on quality.
kornbread402
07-30-09, 09:55
Like a lot of companies and not just in firearms they see their name rise and profits start to increase and then think they can make more money by cutting corners. Companies start out with a good solid product that slowly turns to shit. Not saying this is what sig has let happen but it wouldn’t be the first time. I will be the first to say I trust my life every shift with a sig and based on my weapons history have no reservations in doing so. My sig along with the other officers in my department are late 90’s production with a history of excellent performance, that being said the newer sigs getting into our department have been hit or miss.
first off, I'm a SIG fan. have been for 15 years. but even I don't think the new SIGS are the value they once were with their higher prices compared to the functionality of the modern competition.
I was never an HK fan but at the same price point, I would look at them now rather than a new SIG. However, SIGs are still my pick for a DA/SA pistol and if that's your cup of tea, I think the CPO SIGs are the best choice of all. at the price you can get a CPO, all the QC complaints go out the window.
the new polymer framed, striker fired pistols are an unbeatable value because of their price, but to me, they're just a tool like a hammer or a wrench. I can appreciate good engineering but I have no love for them and anyone who rides a Ducati over Honda will know what I speak of...
The beavertail actually forces my hand down lower, many people I know say the same thing and are mystified as to why Sig implemented it this way. Unless its just another do-dad they slapped on like so many other things lately.
Its just another thing to make the Sig line more like a 1911 to appeal to bubba.
I don't even like beavertails on 1911s.
There were a lot of complaints on the Sig Forumthat Sig was using some new finish on CPO's that was peeling off almost immediately. I don't know if that is still going on.
fI think the CPO SIGs are the best choice of all. at the price you can get a CPO, all the QC complaints go out the window.
Dude, please do not take this personally, I'd say it to my best friend: the only way I'm going to believe you have 300,000 rounds through a .40-cal SIG without needing to replace the frame, slide, and/or barrel is to see a verifiable log of ammo shot through it on a by-day basis.
And for the record, I'd say the same exact thing if it were a G19 or any other gun. Not because it's impossible, but because it's highly improbable.
If you do have the kind of documentation I'm talking about, forget about proving it to me ... contact SIG immediately because I guarantee they want to display that gun at SHOT Show.No offense taken. I would never have believed such a thing, if I had not done it myself. All of our P226's are aged, but not one single pistol has had a major frame failure. I do not have an actual log on the weapon, only an average. Same goes for all of our pistols. Now my Tango51 is another story, where my dope is tracked as expected. And yes I shoot a Tango, as do all of our CS guys. We are a full time unit, and being the "gun guy" I submit the ammo requests, for the yearly purchase. It is fairly easy to come up with an estimate when you average the number of rounds used, divided by number of personnel. Again this is an average. Just to clarify our unit not only meets, but far exceeds the NTOA's best SWAT practices standard. Our guys shoot a minimum of 1 day per week. Many shoot more than 1 day. Two hundred and fifty rounds, or only 5 boxes per 6 hour shooting day, every week, would be considered very little by our standards. As for myself I spend at least 3 days per week at the range and 300-500 rounds per day is not uncommon.
As for the barrel, it has been replaced twice. Same slide, same frame. As mentioned earlier, the internals have been re-done at least twice. Some parts more due to breakage. Same hammer also.
...are you sure you meant to type 300,000 rounds? Are you sure you don't mean like thirty thousand rounds and not three HUNDRED thousand rounds?
Even 100,000 rounds is a LOT...like a huge ungodly iron-man amount of rounds for a single handgun to live through without some sort of major failure. To rack up 100,000 rounds in 9 years would require averaging over 900 rounds fired through the weapons per month. I know some switched on PDs....but I don't know of any that have everybody shooting 900 rounds a month.Yep, no typo. As stated all 45, or so of our guys shoot on average around 4 days per month or around 7-10K per year. Some more, some less at times. 250 rounds in every 6 hour day is pretty easy for us to do. Heck our warm up drills are about 100 rounds per guy. As stated, I shoot quite a bit more. I am one of 2 Lead instructors and spend quite a bit of time at the range, more so than our average guy. Perk of the job I guess, so I do shoot a lot. I have been to many schools, conferences, or just spent time at other PD's so I am more than aware of what happens, and how lucky we may be as far as our training budget is concerned. I agree, I only know a handful of other full time teams who may shoot this much and we feel very fortunate for that. If it matters, we are only 1 of 3 Tri-Arc CALEA certified PD's in the nation. This may have no bearing for some, but it does show that our PD does have a certain amount of dedication and our division happens to benefit greatly from that type of dedication. Just to brag a little, if you happen to look up FEMA type 1 standards for tactical units, we are one of the few out there that happen to fit into this category.
You don't even want to see our Multi-millions of dollars in vehicles that we have accumulated in the last 5 years or so.
As for my pistol......
Frame rails are amazingly in very good shape
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/IMG_21651.jpg
Last Barrel had about 90K rounds through it. I currently have a new barrel that was replaced in May. It already has about 5K rounds through it. Yep, that 5K number since May is correct.
90K round barrel below....
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/IMG_21671.jpg
It is hard to tell from the pic, but the lip developed on the lower part of the barrel was very pronounced, and accuracy had drastically diminished.
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/IMG_21701.jpg
The bottom of the slide look un-freaking believable....
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/IMG_21721.jpg
The magwell has seen better days, but all things considered not that bad......
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/IMG_21741.jpg
Sorry, not trying to BS anyone here. If you don't wish to believe in what I say, than that is your prerogative, and I can't say that I won't understand. I do at least appreciate the tactful manner in which the BS flag was raised. I am a vetted member at a few sites, and I like to think that I have a pretty well respected reputation in person and on-line. If anyone were to come to my neck of the woods, than I have no issues giving the tour. :)
varoadking
07-31-09, 05:56
About the only factory pistol I'm willing to pay premium prices for these days are HK. They have their own customer service issues.
For instance?
Surf -- Thanks for the explanation. Again, I'd seriously suggest you contact your local SIG LE rep. You could probably get some brand new guns in trade for something you can at least quasi-document has gone easily past the 100k mark.
There were a lot of complaints on the Sig Forumthat Sig was using some new finish on CPO's that was peeling off almost immediately. I don't know if that is still going on.
dunno. my P226 CPO with W. German slide and German rail frame have definitely been refinished. it's been GTG but I don't have a lot of time on it. plan to bring the round count up substantially this weekend. I'll let you know...
Supposedly the finish thing was fixed or so the rep told us. But we will see.
Surf- That is one hell of a 226. To hold up to that round count in a 40 cal is a hell of a gun and what I used to expect out of SIG. Well maybe not that many rounds.:D
Frankly I would rather have a German cpo at $550 rather then a new one at $900.
NCPatrolAR
07-31-09, 15:24
For instance?
If speaking about CS issues with HK; their inability to provide parts in a timely manner to LE agencies is one issue. Their inability to truthfully provide timelines is yet another.
MarshallDodge
07-31-09, 16:46
My experience with Sigs has been good. I purchased a West German P226 new in the mid 90's and it has been a good gun. Accuracy is excellent and I cannot remember ever having a stoppage.
I recently saw a photo mis-fitted rear sight on one of the new "special edition" pistols so I guess they are having some QC issues.
John_Wayne777
07-31-09, 20:21
No offense taken. I do at least appreciate the tactful manner in which the BS flag was raised. I am a vetted member at a few sites, and I like to think that I have a pretty well respected reputation in person and on-line. If anyone were to come to my neck of the woods, than I have no issues giving the tour. :)
Just for the record, we weren't trying to break balls or anything...
Your experience clearly places you as a statistical outlier, and 300K....well...I'd ask the Pope where he got that number. :D
My issued 229 in .357 SIG has a relatively lot of rounds through it. I don't know about before I got it (the agency has had it for about ten or eleven years) but I've put a few thousand through it in the past 4 years. The only problem I had was a broken trigger return spring about 3 years ago. I took it completely apart about a year ago (after armorer school) and all the parts looked really good.
It has even chambered, fired and cycled 9mm at least twice :o
I wouldn't buy one for the prices they ask but all in all it's been a really good gun.
I ascribe to the "old SIGs = good, new SIGs = crapshoot" philosophy myself.
There are some really good deals on older SIGs to be found.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-01-09, 10:19
I ascribe to the "old SIGs = good, new SIGs = crapshoot" philosophy myself.
There are some really good deals on older SIGs to be found.
What are the markings or features that differentiate the old from the new? When a gun has been CPO'd, don't they mill the serial number off the slide or something?
An easy way to differentiate "old" SIG versus "new" SIG is the presense of rails and the square trigger guard together (on the P228/9, the P226 has always had a square trigger guard). If the pistol has them; keep away. Older P229's had the same semi-round trigger guard as the original P225/6/8.
Medicine Calf
08-01-09, 13:46
An easy way to differentiate "old" SIG versus "new" SIG is the presense of rails and the square trigger guard together (on the P228/9, the P226 has always had a square trigger guard). If the pistol has them; keep away. Older P229's had the same semi-round trigger guard as the original P225/6/8.
Actually the pistols produced during the early tenure of SIGarms included the newer form factors, while retaining a high level of quality.
Just for the record, we weren't trying to break balls or anything...
Your experience clearly places you as a statistical outlier, and 300K....well...I'd ask the Pope where he got that number. :DEven amongst my peers, including the firearms staff, for both my division and the department firearms staff, I am definitely considered out of the ordinary when it comes to how much I shoot. It also helps that I live 10 mins from our primary range. Now if they can ever get the air handling system issues worked out, our 50 lane indoor range may just make my shooting time increase. 7 million dollars and we can't even get the place open for business.
And yes I had to look up outlier. ;)
Surf -- Thanks for the explanation. Again, I'd seriously suggest you contact your local SIG LE rep. You could probably get some brand new guns in trade for something you can at least quasi-document has gone easily past the 100k mark.We actually had a deal on the table with one supplier to trade our P226's plus $170 per weapon, for brand new P220's. Of course that means all new rigs for class A's and tac belts but that is just a part of it.
The sad thing is, our PD's Admin has traditionally been against selling any weapons, or trading weapons that my be placed up for re-sale on the civilian market. They do not even allow Officer buy back programs on weapons. We currently have an arsenal full of M16's, HK33's, 9mm Sigs, MP5SD's, 870's, M1 supers that we really no longer deploy. It sucks.
You wanna see sad.......
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/guns021.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/guns041.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/guns011.jpg
And that isn't even the half of it. :mad:
True story, HPD has upper management issues.
Try an M&P in .40. Walks all over the Sig and most other .40's IMHO.
Sig is no longer worth the premium they charge for their pistols. In addition to weaker quality control I am under the impression that their parts quality is not what it was either.
The beavertail actually forces my hand down lower, many people I know say the same thing and are mystified as to why Sig implemented it this way. Unless its just another do-dad they slapped on like so many other things lately. Sig needs a refresh of their product line and neither the P250 or chrome P-series are it.
About the only factory pistol I'm willing to pay premium prices for these days are HK. They have their own customer service issues. But their quality is top notch.
After having my interest spurred, I've done a lot of reading on a variety of forums over the last few days. This is the best 'list' I can come up with as to specific problems people are complaining about, along with my new subjective 'take' on the situation:
1) Cheaper parts
-plastic guide rods
-single strand recoil springs
-MIM hammers and other components
-lousy p220 extractors
-one magazine with new guns
-new, cheaply constructed cases
2) Shabby fit and finish on classic models
-magazines that don't fit or lock into place
-mag releases broken or malfunctioning out of box
-malfunctioning takedown levers
-crooked hammers
-severe burrs on slides that cut grooves into the frame rails (although some minor slide wear affecting the finish in places and stabilizing over the first few hundred rounds is apparently normal)
-excessively heavy triggers
-gritty/uneven trigger pulls
-excessive wear on the outside of barrels
-misaligned sights
-missing finish over portions of the slide
-wrong trigger on the wrong gun
3) Failure of new innovations
-nobody seems to like the 250
-a lot of long time Sig shooters dislike the beavertails, fancy grips, alternative colors, etc.
The consensus seems to be that quality began to creep downward around 2005 but really began to suffer badly in 2008. And it isn't just people here complaining, but rather it seems to be a pretty consistent consensus.
That said, the parts in my gun all seem to be solidly constructed steel, I have not had any problem with the fit and finish, and it functions very reliably. I personally have nothing to complain about.
I can, however see why people would expect their new $900 Sig to be trustworthy out of the box. I hear about other companies having QC problems all the time, but they are not charging the same premium as Sig for 'Hell and back' reliability. As such, when Sig fails to clear the higher bar that they set for themselves people get understandably upset.
The way I look at it, paying for a Sig is a crap shoot. If you get a gun that works, I genuinely believe that it beats the other popular full sized .40s that I have spent time with (Glock 22, p99, xd40, USP, and Beretta) for the best mix of accuracy, ergonomic comfort, recoil control, speed, safety, and trigger pull- at least in my hand. Over the life of the gun, the extra money would be well spent for someone who shoots a lot.
Unfortunately, it seems that you no longer really know what you're going to get. In 2006-2007, your odds of getting a 'functioning-as-intended' Sig were probably still quite good (which is why I was spared all this trouble). Sadly, those odds seem to have gotten a lot worse over the last year or so.
I have a friend who is looking to buy his first .40 and likes my Sig a lot. Given all of the recent problems, I think I'm going to steer him towards the m&p .40 or p2000 instead. I'm very intrigued by what I'm hearing of the m&p .40 being exceptionally shootable while still being relatively light and small. I'm going to rent one the next time I go to the range, and might even pick one up myself if its as good as you all say.
Do you guys have any other recommendations in .40 beyond the ones listed above?
Yes. Get an HK P2000 or USPc LEM (The P2000 is basically a USPc with ergo upgrades) and then get a P2000SK as a bug or concealment piece. I got a USPc LEM about 9 years ago, never had an issue with it. Three years ago I got the P2000SK. As soon as my department authorizes the P2000 I am adding one to the stable.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-02-09, 03:22
You wanna see sad.......
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/guns021.jpg
Is that a Crossbow? You guys really do hold onto old gear. At least melt down the chainmail armour and sell it as scrap.
What are the markings or features that differentiate the old from the new? When a gun has been CPO'd, don't they mill the serial number off the slide or something?
my P226 CPO does have the S/N milled off the slide. it is one of the older folded steel slides with the roll pin breech block. it does say "Made in W. Germany" with a manufacture date of 1989 so I'm told it's one of the ones to look for.
surf,
i went through the same issues with my glock 19. told the dept. gunsmith the barr. was shot out he told me impossible, he took it out and shot came back and told me the barr. was shot out. (about 65,000 rds) second barr. cracked a lug at about 35,000 + rds. sohortly after the 3rd barr. went in the left frame rail broke. at this point the gun had 110,100 rds thru it. so i understanding how you feel when people say they don't believe the numbers you state you have put thru a weapon. also if you could advise what type of lube do you guys use on the sigs.
surf,
i went through the same issues with my glock 19. told the dept. gunsmith the barr. was shot out he told me impossible, he took it out and shot came back and told me the barr. was shot out. (about 65,000 rds) second barr. cracked a lug at about 35,000 + rds. sohortly after the 3rd barr. went in the left frame rail broke. at this point the gun had 110,100 rds thru it. so i understanding how you feel when people say they don't believe the numbers you state you have put thru a weapon. also if you could advise what type of lube do you guys use on the sigs.Quite honestly I wouldn't have believed it either, if I hadn't shot it myself. The kicker is I have a couple other pistols that I like to shoot also. So my actual shooting count is higher, without even factoring my M4 or bolt gun into the mix. :)
As for lube, our dept and division tends to use a mix of Militec or CLP. Our dept gunsmiths are pretty much strictly Militec. I tend to use CLP or simple high temp grease, or Militec grease on my M4. On my pistols I tend to use CLP or I use Wilson Combat's Ultima white grease, pistol dependent. The Sig tends to get white grease for lube, but a quick wipe down of CLP for rust prevention. Our climate and a lot of salt in the air, is hard on the finish here. Ultima grease only, for lube on my bolt gun.
Is that a Crossbow? You guys really do hold onto old gear. At least melt down the chainmail armour and sell it as scrap.Yep, we retired the crossbow for this
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/IMG_08781.jpg
The suppressed Robar RC50 makes a nice compliment to our Barretts.
surf
thank you. i've been using weapons shield lately, it's oustanding stuff. i can tell you right down to the round how many rounds have been fired in each of my weapons as i keep a log on each one of them. i started keeping the logs for maintence reasons. ie i check my log one day to log in the rounds fired thru a then new G.17 only to realize in the first three months i had it i put 10k thru the damn thing. withou the the log i would have never guessed i would shoot that much in that short a period thru one gun.
surf
thank you. i've been using weapons shield lately, it's oustanding stuff. i can tell you right down to the round how many rounds have been fired in each of my weapons as i keep a log on each one of them. i started keeping the logs for maintence reasons. ie i check my log one day to log in the rounds fired thru a then new G.17 only to realize in the first three months i had it i put 10k thru the damn thing. withou the the log i would have never guessed i would shoot that much in that short a period thru one gun.Keeping a close log is good. I wish I had done it a bit closer over the years with the Sig. I started keeping round counts on my STI Tac5.0 that I got in Oct 08' and I started a round count on the Sig since its complete overhaul in May.
Pretty much we don't do round count as that is a bit tedious and not so practical with nearly 50 guys. We do keep a detailed log on maintenance schedules and what was performed on each weapon however.
my logs are not only for rounds fired but also parts replacement. i will document what aprts are replaced at what round count. ( ie. 15,000 rds recoil spring replaced )
FWIW, I keep a complete log for my guns. It details:
date
how much time I spent on the range
solo, partner, group
practicing, teaching, taking a class, shooting a match
weather
"needs improvement"
"accomplishments"
general notes (this is where I put maintenance info, too)
scores on standard drills
brand/load of ammo fired & number of rounds fired
any stoppages/breakages
surf
dumb question what ammo does your team shoot for training and duty. we shoot duty ammo which is 124 gr. gold dot +p.. but i shoot what ever i can get my hands on. does your team shoot back ups or off duty weapons during team training work ups.
surf
dumb question what ammo does your team shoot for training and duty. we shoot duty ammo which is 124 gr. gold dot +p.. but i shoot what ever i can get my hands on. does your team shoot back ups or off duty weapons during team training work ups.Practice ammo is Speer Lawman 165gr .40 S&W TMJ. Item# 53955
Duty ammo is Speer Gold Dot Duty Ammunition LE 165gr .40 S&W GDHP. Item# 53970
As for 9mm our PD uses
Practice ammo is American Eagle 9mm 124gr FMJ. Item# 53618
Duty ammo is Speer GD DA LE 9mm 124gr GDHP. Item# AE9AP
My division only utilizes 9mm ammo for our MP5SD's, which are mainly toys at this point. We used to run Sig P226's in 9mm before the switch to .40S&W and we turned all of our old P226 9mm's into dedicated Sims pistols, which works out nicely.
We generally tend to incorporate back up, or off duty carry weapons, holsters and gear in the same training evolutions that fall under Dignitary Protection, since concealed, and plain clothed carry are a big part of the firearms portion of the training. Since our location is a funnel to Asia we are a prime stop over, so we get several dignitary assignments every year. Therefore the guys get a good amount of Dig Pro related firearms training which includes their off duty and back up pistols and gear.
In our most ideal world we would like to get each guy 2 of the same duty type pistols. 1 for training and 1 for duty, and only shoot a few hundred rounds via the duty pistol yearly. We are working on it in our next pistol purchase, but budget is even hitting us hard at this point in time. Our upper admin is going through a transitional phase (new Chief very soon) and we will need to see what direction the budget and new admin go.
surf
thanks for the reply. after seeing how your 226 held up i don't feel so bad shooting a ton of ammo thru my 226 in 9mm( made in 92) i'll just change out the springs and pins every 5000 rds. and go from there.
I should also say that "if" I were to crack my frame, it may speed up, or re-prioritize, the pistol purchase process. ;)
i think it would. the big bosses would look at from a liability standpoint
surf,
when you guys ran the sigs in 9mm did the hold up as well as the 40's. did they have stamped or milled slides.
thank you
Cincinnatus
10-28-09, 10:15
We actually had a deal on the table with one supplier to trade our P226's plus $170 per weapon, for brand new P220's. Of course that means all new rigs for class A's and tac belts but that is just a part of it.
The sad thing is, our PD's Admin has traditionally been against selling any weapons, or trading weapons that my be placed up for re-sale on the civilian market. They do not even allow Officer buy back programs on weapons. We currently have an arsenal full of M16's, HK33's, 9mm Sigs, MP5SD's, 870's, M1 supers that we really no longer deploy. It sucks.
You wanna see sad.......
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/guns021.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/guns041.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/guns011.jpg
And that isn't even the half of it. :mad:
What in heck does a PD need a crossbow for? :eek: :D
I only have limited experience with the 226 and military 228 (M11).
For the Sig gurus - would you agree that older Sigs marked W. Germany are less problematic than Sig USA guns?
Also, it seems that Sigs do like lube just like most military guns. Could a lot of Sig issues be related to lack of lube?
I'm an LE Sig armorer, and I mostly agree with above. I do prefer the carbon slides to the new, but not by much. I wouldn't actually class them as necessarily more reliable, but just better quality. Triggers feel better, balance is better, etc. The only thing I've heard and seen is the MIM sears can get screwy. The mim hammers and other parts seem OK. I still have two P228's, and they're still my favorite carry guns. But I'm out of extractors, and sig says no more. So once they get long in the tooth, I'll switch to non-railed 229's. Not a huge loss, but I'll miss the 228's though.
And yeah, definitely need more lube. Here's a good thread on Sig from Flork on lubing sigs. He's an outstanding gunsmith who used to work for Grayguns.
Flork's lube page (http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/908103701/p/1)
I use Enos slide glide, but put gobs of the stuff on the rails.
N
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-28-09, 21:46
What in heck does a PD need a crossbow for? :eek: :D
I remember that picture from before, so I'll recycle my joke.
A crossbow? You guys seriously never get rid of old weapons.
Has taking the crossbow off the streets cut down on the gallop-by-arrowings?
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