PDA

View Full Version : Good carry weapon for Armored Truck driver?



luv2pbal
08-01-09, 21:50
just wanted to get some opinions on what would be a good handgun for an armored truck driver and why? my friend was considering a glock 23 or an m&p. he doesnt have hardly any shooting experience except with the 357 they issue him. i dont think he wants to spend a lot for a say a 1911 either. what caliber/model would you all recommend?

citizensoldier16
08-01-09, 21:56
I sense another caliber battle...:rolleyes:

98z28
08-01-09, 22:07
Dig around in this forum a bit and you will get some great information from experienced individuals. The canned answer is:

Glock 17 or 19 in 9mm, or
Smith & Wesson M&P in .40 S&W.

Also check out the after action reports (AAR's) in this forum: http://m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=88. You'll see reports from high round count classes. You'll see what guns ran, which one's went down, and why.

If your friend is hung up on the .40 caliber, have him check out this thread: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887.

Also, please encourage him to get some training outside of what the company will provide. Proper mindset and solid training is more important than weapon/caliber choice.

luv2pbal
08-01-09, 22:18
yea i will recommend some training. i wasn't trying to start a caliber war here. Nor a smith vs glock war. Just wondering under the circumstances of the job, what gun would be best and why? more rounds with a 9mm or less rounds with a higher caliber?
I'm not sure what they are trained for in those jobs(except to protect the money)..... he told me that they said if his partner was outside of the truck in a gunfight that he was supposed to drive away and leave him. so that gives you an idea i guess....

and thanks ill take a look at those links

John_Wayne777
08-01-09, 22:34
just wanted to get some opinions on what would be a good handgun for an armored truck driver and why? my friend was considering a glock 23 or an m&p. he doesnt have hardly any shooting experience except with the 357 they issue him. i dont think he wants to spend a lot for a say a 1911 either. what caliber/model would you all recommend?

Is this to replace his issue weapon? If so, they more than likely have a list of acceptable firearms he can choose from.

BT2012
08-02-09, 18:29
The type of weapon and caliber is a moot point if your friend doesn't practice and becoming more familiar with his issued weapon(whatever he ultimately decides to choose). In addition, due to the nature of being an armored truck driver, he needs to learn tactics and how to handle situations when that door opens and transporting money between vehicle and location. I would recommend he choose a reliable firearm with high capacity magazine in case he has to repel an armed robbery until law enforcement arrives.

kmrtnsn
08-02-09, 18:41
What his company and the limits of his guard license allow him to carry.

jhs1969
08-02-09, 21:14
If he IS the driver then the .357 revolver is a good choice, next better choice would be a short (18") pump shotgun. A 'driver' is never to leave the truck, so that leaves any shooting to be done through the gun port in the driver's door. These ports are relatively small and will most likely cause functioning problems with a semi-auto's slide. This is why a weapon such as a revolver or pump shotgun will be best in this role. If he works as a 'messenger' or 'armed guard', one of the guys that will be shuttling or guarding money outside the truck then a good semi-auto would be better IMO. If working as a true guard, as in not handling the money, only guarding it, then a pump shotgun as primary and a good semi-auto as secondary would be a wise choice.

Some companies will issue the sidearms, meaning that is all that they will allow you to carry. No choices here.

Some companies will allow you to carry a sidearm you choose so long as it is from their list of approved sidearms. In this area, as of six years ago, the company that allows it's people a choice in sidearms would not approve a Glock or any other striker fired sidearm. Which left traditional DA/SA or DAO sidearms such as Sig (which was most popluar) or Beretta. They had many others to choose from as well. You could always tell the ones who took their protection/lives seriously as they were the ones carring Sigs and Berettas. The cheap skates usually carried a Ruger or Taurus (sorry Ruger and Taurus fans:eek:)

There are a lot of restrictions for these jobs. If, six years later, or the paticular company your buddy works for will allow a wider choice in handguns (such as striker fired) Then I would choose a Glock 17 and load it with +P ammo such as Speer Gold Dot. Why? Seventeen rounds of +P ammo on tap and a full size handgun is a non-issue because it will be carried in a true duty rig.

This is my personal choice, it is not the only choice as many other handguns will fill the role very well.

The driver is trained to drive away, therefore removing the money from the sene and leaving no more reason to continue the shoot out. We were advised, privately, not officially, to run bad guys over if possible.

Good luck

MiggyE
08-02-09, 22:31
jhs1969 is right. point is, will he be allowed to carry a personal firearm? or just what is issued to him (as is the case here)? if he could, how about one of the new S&W's with 7 or 8 rounds of 357? that way, as jhs1969 also pointed out, you have no problems of firing out of the firing port.
he also raised a good point on striker fired firearms. i think more data on what the company would allow is in order.

luv2pbal
08-03-09, 00:42
Thanks for the responses. My friend did say that they were allowed to carry anything they wanted (no list) as long as they purchased it themselves, but i will double check with him on that. Good point about the slide and the port hole also. I never really thought of that. He just started the job within the last few months so I am not sure if he is going to be a driver or messenger for the long run.

Combat_Diver
08-03-09, 09:13
Here's a few more points for him to consider.

1: Is the company going to provide range ammo or does he only get a basic load of whatever? If, the company only issues .357 ammo for carry and practice, what's his buget?

2: Reference shooting through ports, you are still liable for those bullets you fire unaimed. Yes, you can stick a muzzle thru it but do you know where that bullet is going? Have him look and study the set up/firing ports. I would suggest a laser attached to the firearm. I like CT grips but the laser is on the side of the frame. The port may depending on the angle of fire block the laser. I would consider the LaserMax (replaces guide rod) laser (I have no experience with this model). Thrust pistol through port, move laser point to target and engage.

3: Get as much training as he can to include weapons retention since he will be a target.

CD

jhs1969
08-03-09, 11:38
Just a second thought on the gun ports;

I don't remember the size of the ports but they are very small. So small that I would not even consider using a semi-auto through the ports, also consider you have to use your weak hand to hold the port block open as it was spring closed. A 12 ga. pump's barrel would fit through the port (and as a benefit would also keep the port block open) but with very little room left over, making for a very tight fit for a semi-auto. When using a revolver you had to manually hold the port block open or it would spring close and put pressure on the cylinder.

BT2012
08-03-09, 12:54
I don't recall an armored vehicle having a gun port nor would an armored truck company would allow any guards shooting out of the vehicle due to liability reasons. SWAT teams are the only one with armored vehicles which may have gun ports for rescue. As Combat_Diver pointed out, shooting a firearm without aiming is a BIG liability issue and BIG PR nightmare. As quoted by Ken Hackathorn, every bullet has a lawyer's ($$$ jackpot $$$) name attached to it. You have to remain alert, use proper tactics and scanning, and display professional demeanor in reducing yourself as an easy target as observed by would-be bank robbers. I've seen many armored guards who were inattentive or sloppy and unprofessional in appearance.

John_Wayne777
08-03-09, 13:29
I don't recall an armored vehicle having a gun port nor would an armored truck company would allow any guards shooting out of the vehicle due to liability reasons. SWAT teams are the only one with armored vehicles which may have gun ports for rescue. As Combat_Diver pointed out, shooting a firearm without aiming is a BIG liability issue and BIG PR nightmare. As quoted by Ken Hackathorn, every bullet has a lawyer's ($$$ jackpot $$$) name attached to it. You have to remain alert, use proper tactics and scanning, and display professional demeanor in reducing yourself as an easy target as observed by would-be bank robbers. I've seen many armored guards who were inattentive or sloppy and unprofessional in appearance.

...I've seen one lose his revolver out of the holster without noticing.

jhs1969
08-03-09, 16:45
I don't recall an armored vehicle having a gun port nor would an armored truck company would allow any guards shooting out of the vehicle due to liability reasons. SWAT teams are the only one with armored vehicles which may have gun ports for rescue. As Combat_Diver pointed out, shooting a firearm without aiming is a BIG liability issue and BIG PR nightmare. As quoted by Ken Hackathorn, every bullet has a lawyer's ($$$ jackpot $$$) name attached to it. You have to remain alert, use proper tactics and scanning, and display professional demeanor in reducing yourself as an easy target as observed by would-be bank robbers. I've seen many armored guards who were inattentive or sloppy and unprofessional in appearance.

Please check you facts before posting, please.

Yes, armoured trucks DO have gun ports. And the employee's are permited fire, through the ports or outside the truck, if a situation warrents lethal force. The ports have been used by personel with my prior company. Liability for fired rounds are attached to ANYONE who fires said rounds, be it law enforcement, military, ccw, homeowner, armed guard, etc, etc. You may debate whether someone should/should not fire if you want, this is not something that can be answered by me or any one else. This can only be determined after the fact through proper investigation. I've seen other companies use armoured "vans" and I can not speak for these vans nor the companies that use them but our company used only heavy trucks, armoured and with gun ports. Everyone of them.

You may post based on your opinion if you want, your allowed. I'm posting based on fact from my own experience with my prior armoured company and another large armoured company that we worked with from time to time.

Check closely any armoured trucks you see running town, if it is from one of the two largest armoured companies in the nation it WILL have gun ports. Again I can not speak for the smaller compaines or the "vans" they use.

As far as unprofessional employees, come on. We have all seen them, again, in law enforcement, military etc. etc., from every walk of life, you've heard the saying "don't be that guy". I've worked with these guys before and always raised my own attentiveness to try to make up for some of their lack of. You will always have guys who simply want to "draw a check".

Again, check your facts.

Irish
08-03-09, 17:04
I would consider the LaserMax (replaces guide rod) laser (I have no experience with this model). Thrust pistol through port, move laser point to target and engage.
A good friend of mine has the LaserMax for his G19 and has had it installed for approx the last 5 years. He does not shoot it often but has put approx 1000 rounds through the pistol with good results as far as durability and keeping point of aim with the laser.
LaserMax at that time offered a substantial discount to .mil & LEO, I don't know if this still applies. Sounds like this would work well for your situation since it is not frame mounted and everything is internal. The laser on/off control switch is your slide lock and is easily activated. You can swap this part out in about 2 minutes.

BT2012
08-03-09, 18:00
jhs1969,

I offer my observation and opinion based on my background but it does not matter to me whether you learn from it or not and it is not meant to criticize you but rather as from another's point of view. Where I come from, when an innocent bystander get shot, it is big news with big lawsuits surely to follow but it may be a different in your area. I and other members offer comments based on observation and experience and is meant to benefit other members on this forum. This forum offers a wealth of information and if you find a member's comment offensive, then maybe this forum is not for you. I can see you don't take constructive criticism well and I won't engage any further comments with you.

Failure2Stop
08-03-09, 18:25
I have a few buddies that were on police escourt to cash in transit vehicles in South Africa. They highly recommend rifles ;).

Rifles . . . and friends on helos with rifles.

I'm sure that this will be of zero help to the handgun discussion, just trying to interject some perspective.

jhs1969
08-03-09, 21:33
jhs1969,

I offer my observation and opinion based on my background but it does not matter to me whether you learn from it or not and it is not meant to criticize you but rather as from another's point of view. Where I come from, when an innocent bystander get shot, it is big news with big lawsuits surely to follow but it may be a different in your area. I and other members offer comments based on observation and experience and is meant to benefit other members on this forum. This forum offers a wealth of information and if you find a member's comment offensive, then maybe this forum is not for you. I can see you don't take constructive criticism well and I won't engage any further comments with you.

Read the forum rules, qualify your remmarks. Don't pass off your opinion as fact.


I don't recall an armored vehicle having a gun port nor would an armored truck company would allow any guards shooting out of the vehicle due to liability reasons. SWAT teams are the only one with armored vehicles which may have gun ports for rescue.

How else would this be interpeted? Don't tell me how my job operates unless you've done my job. Armoured car employee's are allowed to use lethal force to protect themselves and their cargo. Only SWAT is allowed? Give me a break. Again, yes they have gun ports. They are not bristling machine gun ports as you may expect to find on an APC, as stated they are very small and most people would not even recognize them or even spot them. I will not discuss liability of fired rounds, this was not a question the OP asked about, this is a subject better addressed on a case by case basis based on state laws concerning this matter. I will not role play with this one. You may if you like, but again it was not what the OP asked for.


I offer my observation and opinion based on my background

What is your background? Have you worked for armoured carriers before? You never gave your background. From your previous post you made it sound as if you knew all about it. But the details of your post suggest otherwise.


This forum offers a wealth of information and if you find a member's comment offensive, then maybe this forum is not for you.

Yes, this forum is unique and can be very beneficial. The only time I, and most others here, take any offense is when people state opinions as fact or try to pass themselves off as something that they are not. If you want to be seen as an "all knowing commando" then maybe you should find another forum, try TOS. Most people here will raise the BS flag when needed. I would guess there are others here with more experience on armoured vehicles than I and would gladly welcome their insights.


I can see you don't take constructive criticism well and I won't engage any further comments with you

Again, thoughts and opinions from other people can be helpful and can open new lines of thought that could otherwise have been untapped. Just don't pass said opinons as fact. The OP is looking for anwsers to his questions, disquised opinions may only confuse someone.

I've tried to show how your post was misleading, at best. Hopefully we can all try a little harder qualify ourselves. I've simply tried to correct, to the best of my ability, some misleading information. It is not meant to be a personal slight, however, if fact leaves someone butt hurt then it is not my butt.

Back to the OP,
Some are still suggesting a semi-auto, and I would feel better about using one myself. I don't think most people realize how small the gun ports are, I personally was not comfortable in trying to operate a semi-auto through the ports without causing malfunctions. Have your buddy check the size of the ports with a co-workers semi-auto if possible, he should then have a better idea if he wants to go that route. Where I worked, we had the option of checking out a shotgun if we wanted. I felt these worked much better through a gun port and may give your buddy the option of going with a semi-auto with very little negative effects as the shotgun can fill that role if needed.

Just a few more thoughts. Good luck.

ekujustice
08-03-09, 21:47
Best bet drop the money and get out of dodge if you can. At least around here they get about 8.50-9 bucks and hr. Not worth getting in a gun fight over if you can avoid it. What are they going to do if you drop the bag and haul ass fire you? Loosing a 8.50-9 buck an hr job wow

Also in EVERY state you are liable for any round you fire out of that gun justified or not. You fire out of a gun port without the ability to aim unless they are directly in front of it and hit an innocent person you are going to get charged with something. Shooting to save your life dosen't give you the right to take an innocent persons life.

5pins
08-03-09, 23:32
Best bet drop the money and get out of dodge if you can.

Donít they cuff the money bag to the guard?

jhs1969
08-04-09, 09:42
Donít they cuff the money bag to the guard?


No, they do not at anytime. Most of these money transfers are so large that a large dolly must be used. You really can turn a lot of heads when wheeling 12 million in cash into a bank:eek:. We ship out rolled coins in boxes and return loose change in cloth money bags and these things are heavy, again requiring the use of a dolly both into and back from the bank. The cash is counted out to fill what a bank has ordered and wrapped in plastic making for large 'bales' of cash.


Best bet drop the money and get out of dodge if you can. At least around here they get about 8.50-9 bucks and hr. Not worth getting in a gun fight over if you can avoid it. What are they going to do if you drop the bag and haul ass fire you? Loosing a 8.50-9 buck an hr job wow

It has been a few years, so I can't remember everything regarding policies or training but you are right on. The will tell you up front that no amount of money is worth loosing your life over. As long as you don't break the law or company policy you should be OK. They make more than that around here but not a great amount more. Certainly not enough to get killed over, and thankfully they realize this and understand.

MiggyE
08-04-09, 23:20
correct me if i'm wrong, but if its being carried in an armored van, and being transported around, it should be insured, right? that gives all the more reason to just drop the money and run.

around here, however, there have been instances when the robbers shot their way through to the van, injuring or killing the guards. in cases where the robbers shoot first and take the money second, i think shooting at them is very much justified, even if just to protect yourself.

jhs1969
08-05-09, 09:49
correct me if i'm wrong, but if its being carried in an armored van, and being transported around, it should be insured, right? that gives all the more reason to just drop the money and run.

around here, however, there have been instances when the robbers shot their way through to the van, injuring or killing the guards. in cases where the robbers shoot first and take the money second, i think shooting at them is very much justified, even if just to protect yourself.


Yes, you are correct.

I've never worked with or around armoured vans, we used heavier armoured trucks. They were completely bullet proof, you would have to go up to a .50 BMG to begin to have a chance to penetrate their armour. We used to keep one of the armoured plate glass panels in the shop that had been hit with a bullet to show prospective new hires.

Discovery ran a show a few years back on armoured vehichles, they went into greater detail about their protection levels.

Buckshot TX
08-05-09, 19:31
...I've seen one lose his revolver out of the holster without noticing.

Yeah, I had to send my messenger back into a bank in Portland, OR. when he caught the butt of his issue gun on the pushbar of the door while BACKING :eek: out the door w/ a handtruck! There was a S&W M-15 just laying on the sidewalk - he never noticed until I told him. It was my 2nd day on the job & he had been there over 5 years :rolleyes:! I worked w/ a VERY few folks who were very switched-on, but most of them were mediocre even by average private security standards - their only redeeming quality was having a CDL!
We were issued a 4" M-15 if working a truck, or a 2" M-64 if working in the vault. Policy allowed for any 4"+ revolver 38 spl & up, or any decent DA auto 9mm & up (a privately owned 380 or 38 spl snubby was allowed working in the office/vault). If you wanted any ammo other than 38 spl 158 RN "widowmakers", you bought it yourself. We weren't authorized BUGs, but myself & a couple of others "ignored" that policy. We often switched off b/w driving & "hopping" during a shift. I saw everything from PPK/S to a 6" M-29 with the occasional Sig & Glock. After experimenting w/ a number of different weapons, I standardized on a sturdy wheelgun that I wouldn't worry about getting a few dings - passing thru the hatch on the move can be a little cramped for a 6'3" dude. I ended up carrying a fixed sight Ruger GP-100 or an old S&W 1917 most of my time there. Long guns were 870s or S&W 3000s w/ 00 on local routes, Shotgun plus a Mini 14 or HK91 on the Fed runs. No extra ammo issued for the longs, but, again, a few of us "overcame" that issue on our own. I always carried an extra 10 rounds of 12 ga on my belt in a pouch & had more stuff in my satchel.

MiggyE
08-06-09, 23:24
Yes, you are correct.

I've never worked with or around armoured vans, we used heavier armoured trucks. They were completely bullet proof, you would have to go up to a .50 BMG to begin to have a chance to penetrate their armour. We used to keep one of the armoured plate glass panels in the shop that had been hit with a bullet to show prospective new hires.

Discovery ran a show a few years back on armoured vehichles, they went into greater detail about their protection levels.

wished the vans here are as sturdy. aside from the trucks the central bank use, of one group that uses sloped armor, most vans just have enough armor to stop pistol caliber rounds, maybe 5.56mm at the worst. have seen robbers that used M14s, full-auto BARs, and 203's. :( wouldn't want to be in the guards' shoes.

BTW, i have a few friends that run several security agencies. they say that since a rash of armored van robberies several years ago, the government here has allowed them to buy high-powered rifles. the number of firearms are strictly controlled and monitored by the police, however, and the price here of even bushmasters, and dpms are very restrictive if you are an agency and your owners are worried about the bottom line. have seen a few guards with government surplus A1s in semi-auto, and even fewer MP5s, but these are few and far between. i think they use these for multi-million pick-ups.....