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View Full Version : Limp wristing acceptable or not



Littlelebowski
08-05-09, 10:07
After watching this YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9JhCyFFxA#), I'm curious about the phenomenon known as "limp wristing." I've never had it happen on my G19. Has it been resolved on Glocks?

I've always felt this is an unacceptable excuse for a malfunction in any handgun, is it acceptable?

Gutshot John
08-05-09, 10:12
It's not acceptable from my perspective since it's a problem with grip technique, aggravated by a light poly-frame.

I've never had a problem, but my training experiences have all made it clear what the problem is.

Business_Casual
08-05-09, 10:20
I think in one out of every five posts, a certain former moderator is required to post his disdain for Glock's malfunction explanations related to "limp wristing," isn't he?

M_P

John_Wayne777
08-05-09, 10:47
After watching this YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9JhCyFFxA#), I'm curious about the phenomenon known as "limp wristing." I've never had it happen on my G19. Has it been resolved on Glocks?

I've always felt this is an unacceptable excuse for a malfunction in any handgun, is it acceptable?

In my experience Glock 19's are particularly vulnerable to limp-wristing when using FMJ target ammo. Much less so when using +P JHP ammo.

Has it been resolved? I can still choke my fairly recently purchased G19 with the right grip.

Is it an "acceptable" excuse for a malfunction? (Assuming we're talking about malfunctions that are legitimately caused by LW, as opposed to the Glock kool-aid description of EVERY malf being because of a LW) I guess that depends on your perspective. While too weak of a grip can certainly cause more issues than a proper grip, who is to say that in a real fight you'll be able to have a really strong grip? Right now I have tendonitis in my gun arm so bad I can barely muster enough force to make a decent fist. If I need my gun and it chokes because I "limp wristed" it will that explanation be of any comfort to me?

I doubt it.

AR15thur
08-05-09, 12:48
I'd been considering a Glock 19 for concealed carry, but this post makes me wonder if that would be a good decision or not.

If I were injured, or having to shoot while lying on either side, I'd hate to think that the gun would jam when I needed it most.

Is this a common problem with the 19 or other 9mm Glocks?

citizensoldier16
08-05-09, 12:52
I was alwasy taught (and have taught others) that limp-wristing is not a function of the gun or the ammo used, but rather a mistake made by the shooter. Granted you can't take a 100 pound shooter and expect them to fully control the recoil of a .500S&W revolver, but the shooter must take an active role in preventing excessive muzzle flip by locking the wrists and absorbing recoil with the elbows.

Do Glocks specifically experience malfunctions because of limp-wristing? Maybe. Possibly because of the slightly flatter grip angle. But to blame Glocks for causing these malfunctions is like blaming forks for making Rosie O'Donnell fat.

Zhurdan
08-05-09, 12:59
I think what was demonstrated in the video as "Limpwristing" is a pretty extreme case. A good steady grip on the pistol is a far cry from an index finger and thumb on the pistol. Semi-automatic pistols are designed with the notion that there will be good resistance for the recoil operation to take place as it should. Try to make a pistol fail, and that's probably what you'll get.

Yes, yes yes, I know. "what if you're incapacitated". At that point, any incapacitation that involves the gun hand/arm resulting in a person being unable to hold the pistol with some 'umf' is probably incapacitating enough that they wouldn't be able to hold the gun at all in any useful manner anyways. Good reason to practice with both hands.

ToddG
08-05-09, 14:36
It's important to understand exactly what "limp wristing" is, because far too often people think that simply having a strong grip or locked wrists will be a 100% solution to the problem.

What is commonly called "limp wristing" is actually the frame of the gun being allowed to move in recoil enough that the slide timing is disrupted. It can be done with just about any recoil-operated weapon (I've seen a demo of Benelli shotgun that was totally shut down after each shot because the shooter intentionally "limp wristed" it).

You can simulate this yourself with a little practice. Point your loaded recoil operated semiauto pistol downrange safely. Try to press the trigger and pull backwards on the gun simultaneously. Be sure to keep the muzzle level and downrange at all times, obviously, or else you might get the timing wrong and shoot yourself in the face ... in which case you're an idiot and I have no sympathy for you because you were warned and I know a good lawyer.

Think about how the gun needs to work. The slide needs to move backwards and forwards along the frame to extract, eject, strip, feed, and load. If the frame is also moving backwards, then the relative speed of the slide is reduced and it may not move far enough or with enough force to cycle properly.

Certain guns (ahem ... Glocks) are more prone to this problem. The lack of rigidity of the frame in recoil and the short frame rails mean that the slide can get snafu'd more easily.

While it's all well and good to blame the shooter -- and it is technically a shooter-induced error -- that really doesn't answer the whole question. If your arm is wounded and you cannot maintain a full firing grip on the gun, would you want a gun that still functions properly or one that jams after the first round?

As JW777 pointed out, weaker ammo can exacerbate the problem. Obviously, weaker ammo produces less energy to move the slide, so you're cutting into your margin of error. This is true for problems other than just "limp wristing," as well. A good friend of mine was issued a Beretta 92G pistol. During training, when the gun got dirty & dry enough it would start to balk with their practice ammo; but, a mag of their carry load (9BPLE, a +p+) would still cycle the gun perfectly.

AR15thur
08-05-09, 14:43
It's important to understand exactly what "limp wristing" is, because far too often people think that simply having a strong grip or locked wrists will be a 100% solution to the problem.

What is commonly called "limp wristing" is actually the frame of the gun being allowed to move in recoil enough that the slide timing is disrupted. It can be done with just about any recoil-operated weapon (I've seen a demo of Benelli shotgun that was totally shut down after each shot because the shooter intentionally "limp wristed" it).

You can simulate this yourself with a little practice. Point your loaded recoil operated semiauto pistol downrange safely. Try to press the trigger and pull backwards on the gun simultaneously. Be sure to keep the muzzle level and downrange at all times, obviously, or else you might get the timing wrong and shoot yourself in the face ... in which case you're an idiot and I have no sympathy for you because you were warned and I know a good lawyer.

Think about how the gun needs to work. The slide needs to move backwards and forwards along the frame to extract, eject, strip, feed, and load. If the frame is also moving backwards, then the relative speed of the slide is reduced and it may not move far enough or with enough force to cycle properly.

Certain guns (ahem ... Glocks) are more prone to this problem. The lack of rigidity of the frame in recoil and the short frame rails mean that the slide can get snafu'd more easily.

While it's all well and good to blame the shooter -- and it is technically a shooter-induced error -- that really doesn't answer the whole question. If your arm is wounded and you cannot maintain a full firing grip on the gun, would you want a gun that still functions properly or one that jams after the first round?

As JW777 pointed out, weaker ammo can exacerbate the problem. Obviously, weaker ammo produces less energy to move the slide, so you're cutting into your margin of error. This is true for problems other than just "limp wristing," as well. A good friend of mine was issued a Beretta 92G pistol. During training, when the gun got dirty & dry enough it would start to balk with their practice ammo; but, a mag of their carry load (9BPLE, a +p+) would still cycle the gun perfectly.

With that said, would a Glock 19 still be recommended as a carry weapon, or are there better options (similarly sized options anyway) out there that you would recommend?

ToddG
08-05-09, 14:59
With that said, would a Glock 19 still be recommended as a carry weapon, or are there better options (similarly sized options anyway) out there that you would recommend?

I don't think anyone can rationally argue that the G19 is a bad CCW gun. It is a great size, reliable, durable, high capacity, and easy to shoot. Does it have weaknesses? Sure. All guns do. On the grand scale of problems, being slightly more prone to "limp wristing" is probably fairly low in importance. It's not like the typical G19 has a stoppage every 50 rounds.

The main reason some people -- myself included -- get all in a tizzy over the issue is because Glock has traditionally blamed all problems with their guns on either (1) bad ammo or (2) limp wristing. Your front sight fell off? You must have limp wristed. :cool:

As long as you know the difference between the gun having an actual problem and you inducing one because you allowed the frame to move backwards in recoil, you should be good to go.

MarshallDodge
08-05-09, 19:56
I've never had it happen on my G19. Has it been resolved on Glocks?

It has never happened to you because you are holding the gun properly so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

This video makes me cringe everytime I see someone recommend a Glock for a lady: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHWAPtO7m90
That being said, my wife carries a Springfield EMP. She loves it but at first we had to work through limp wristing issues. She changed her grip which not only made the gun run better but it improved her accuracy.

My experence is that it affects the smaller guns more due to the lower mass of the short slide and barrel acting as a counterweight.

MarshallDodge
08-05-09, 20:10
The main reason some people -- myself included -- get all in a tizzy over the issue is because Glock has traditionally blamed all problems with their guns on either (1) bad ammo or (2) limp wristing. Your front sight fell off? You must have limp wristed. :cool:

Do you recall the pizza store owner that sued Glock over the gun malfunctioning? I guess the gun quit on him while he fending off a robbery. It was sometime in the early 90's and I think Glock blamed it on limp wristing back then.

Every gun has it's quirks that's why I smirk when I read the words "Glock Perfection". It's a mechanical device, it will fail. Maybe less than other devices but it will fail.

Irish
08-05-09, 20:35
Be sure to keep the muzzle level and downrange at all times, obviously, or else you might get the timing wrong and shoot yourself in the face ... in which case you're an idiot and I have no sympathy for you because you were warned and I know a good lawyer. :D

My wife's experience with pistols is very limited but she has shot (test drove) a variety of semi-automatics and revolvers. Her favorite is my G19 (Gen 2) and after shooting a few hundred rounds through it a few weeks ago she didn't experience any stoppages. Her experience with guns is very limited and yet I feel that she has a firm grasp of the basics in order to prevent LW from happening. I think LW has alot to do with improper technique and cheap ammo.

f.2
08-05-09, 21:17
We practice when we are wide awake, full of strength, concentration at a peak, alert. What about when you are awaken at o'dark thirty? Will an imperfect grip affect function then? How would you test this?

skyugo
08-05-09, 22:44
i'd think in a high adrenaline situation you'd tend to clamp down hard on the grip.

practice malfunction drills, learn to shoot with both hands...

it's one of the more reliable weapons out there.

ToddG
08-05-09, 23:58
Again, it's not about how hard you grip the gun in your hands so much as how much the frame moves. Think about a handgun hanging from a string. If you set it off, it will jam every single time because the frame and slide will recoil together and the mechanism will not cycle as it's intended.

MarshallDodge
08-07-09, 13:17
Again, it's not about how hard you grip the gun in your hands so much as how much the frame moves. Think about a handgun hanging from a string. If you set it off, it will jam every single time because the frame and slide will recoil together and the mechanism will not cycle as it's intended.

I agree. I was at a class last year and the instructor was trying to make a point about trigger control. He had us remove our lower three fingers from the grip and shoot to simulate a relaxed grip. I thought for sure we would see some limp wristing issues but nobody did. There were Sigs, Glocks, 1911's, and my wife had her EMP.

Saginaw79
08-07-09, 19:13
Its only acceptable insofar as admitting its a mistake you made IMO