Let's talk Comms.

[Navigating Collapse]

My recent post in another thread about all the things about modern civilisation that give me the warm 'n fuzzies got me think about one such item:

Communication.

Despite being the last man alive without a cellular phone, I enjoy being able to contact friends/family via the telephone. It's one of the big ones that I think we collectively take for granted, having never known life without some form of electronic/remote communication.

Has anyone factored in comm-gear into their preps?

How does one power the equipment in the event of disruption to the grid? I've thought about solar panels, but I don't know if they'll pump the juice necessary to power the gear.

Options; there's tons. CB/HAM/GMRS/FM/UHF/SW/etc.

I know very little about commercially available communications setups; yet it's something I'd definitely like to incorporate into my "OMG!" kit.

[Chooie]

I keep a couple sets of FRS/GMRS radios at home. I use them for paintball, car club road trips, family theme park trips, etc. I keep plenty of batteries (alkaline, NiMh rechargeable, and energizer lithium) on hand at all times. I also have the radio that I use for the rescue squad. It is a VHF radio, programmed to transmit and receive on local fire, ems, and police bands, statewide ems, as well as receive weather channel and state police broadcasts. Unfortunately, it requires a computer and special cable/software to program (have to go to dispatch to have it programmed). This means that it is relatively worthless outside of my home county (aside from statewide EMS traffic). I have been looking out for good deals on keypad programmable radios (VHF/UHF) on fleabay, but they are few and far between. An important resource to have in addition to any radio system is a list of frequencies and the agencies that use them. Radioreference.com is invaluable as a resource - you can choose your state/local government, private business, etc. This allows you to preplan to not only have freq's for your local area, but also for your bugout location AND everywhere in between (provided your radio has enough channels).

I also keep a handheld digital trunking scanner that also runs on regular AA's. This helps me conserve the battery of the radio, and will also pick up aviation, marine, CB, etc. signals.

I don't know all that much about CBs or ham equipment, but it is certainly something I would like to explore. A simple CB radio/antenna combo can be had for under $100, but I don't know how effective it would be. Right now I'm pretty comfortable with what I've got.

Oh, and I also keep a pre-paid tracfone and card (unactivated) in each car, and one in the BOB. You never know when you might need it, if you lose your cell phone, or you get no signal on your network (Tracfone will hit pretty much any tower out there). Besides, they were less than $20 each.

[MarshallDodge]

I have some FRS radios and a CB. There are still quite a few CB'ers out their so I would bet that they would be pretty popular in an emergency.

My goal this year is to get my HAM license then purchase some portable VHF HAM radios.

[BackBlast]

Has anyone factored in comm-gear into their preps?

Sure, but the question is, who do you want to communicate with? Both sides need a compatible device and the ability to power it.

How does one power the equipment in the event of disruption to the grid? I've thought about solar panels, but I don't know if they'll pump the juice necessary to power the gear.

Batteries, generally. Solar panels can work without batteries, but only during the day while the sun is shining. Most radios have reasonable power requirements so they aren't hard or require large power systems to run.

Local few miles can be handled by hand helds with AAs or small battery packs. Larger, longer range, can usually run off 12v systems. You could run it from your car, or a solar panel.

[Heavy Metal]

2Meter VHF Ham is the way to go.

[Abraxas]

This should be an interesting thread

[dave5339]

Comms figure big in my wife & I's preps.

With communication capabilities you are able to monitor what is going on in everything from your local environment to the world.

When severe weather comes into our area, we fire up the 2 meter amateur radios and monitor Skywarn. This allows us to real time where the severe weather is. This has proven more than useful a time or two.

Amateur radio has also given me the ability to help with post disaster recovery. May of 2003 a large F3 flattened the town where my parents lived. As we could not reach them by phone, (land line or cell) I loaded up the truck and drove the 2 1/2 hours down. The area had been hit hard, cell towers were down, the downtown area leveled. The local phone exchange building had been scrubbed down to the foundation.

The only means of communication in our out of there for the first couple of days was by radio. The day after the tornado I spent driving around with my parents checking on the elderly population. I was able to relay message traffic to another amateur radio operator in a different town, she in turn was able to call families and let them know the status of their loved ones.

A General amateur radio license and an HF radio give us world wide communications capabilities. Even during poor radio conditions we've talked to stations from New Zealand to Russia.

Comms also give you a huge tactical advantage. They allow you to know what is happening somewhere else and by knowing that information, allow you to plan for those situations. You can be PROACTIVE, rather than REACTIVE.

An amateur radio technician license is relatively easy to get. A little time studying the material, $14, and find a local test location and you will be good to go. The test is easy to pass with a little reading and studying before hand. If all goes as planned my 8 year old daughter is going to test the first of next year.

Semper Fi

[QuietShootr]

Preface: Don't jump in with comments about legality. Assume that when I'm talking about operating outside a ham band, I'm talking about emergency situations, which FCC rules clearly state is permissible (any mode, any power, any method available). This is a technical discussion, not a "OMGWTFBBQ!! The hams are going to DF your signal and come and paste pocket protectors all over your house!, and the FCC is going to burn your house down, fine you, and violate your daughter!" discussion.

I've been working on this very thing the last couple of weeks.

The Yaesu FT-897D is (imo) the best reasonably priced radio available for what we're talking about. After a simple modification, it is capable of transmitting 1.8-56mHz with no gaps, 136-173mHz no gaps, and 410-470mHz no gaps. Also, it is capable of USB/LSB, AM, FM, CW, and digital modes right out of the box. It puts out 100w of power on external 12V/23A power, and is capable of 20 watts on optional INTERNAL rechargeable LiPo battery packs. It has two very capable auto-tuners available for it, and they can be bolted right to the side of the rig.

A homemade dipole antenna rolls up on an extension cord reel nicely, and all this fits in a small ruck. On the internal batteries, you can expect at least 8 hours of continuous operation before you need to recharge (which can be done from 110 or from 12vdc.)

Couple this with a communication method known as NVIS, or Near-Vertical Incident Skywave, and things begin to get very interesting for the tactical communicator.

I differentiate the tactical communicator from the ham dork (hereafter TC and HD) because of the following:

The ham dork does not necessarily want to talk to a specific station. Normally, he wants to talk as far as possible with little regard for a specific contact, except for wanting to contact someone in a specific country. Oddly enough, they actually have contests to see how many random strangers they can talk to. It takes all kinds, I guess.
The tactical communicator wants to talk to a specific station/unit/person. This is an important distinction, because a successful comm shot to a specific station is a much more interesting problem than simply getting an antenna up and talking to somebody.


Without boring the shit out of you with technical details, just know that there are basically two methods by which radio waves propagate: skywave and groundwave. Skywave is when a signal is reflected off one of the layers of the ionosphere, and groundwave is a signal that follows (this is an oversimplification, I know, but I'm trying to keep this simple) the nap of the earth. Your range with a groundwave is basically limited to the horizon plus a small fraction that can vary based on some weird things that don't really concern us here.

The usual method of communication at HF (high frequency, or 1-30mHz) is skywave, or some variation thereof. Basically this means you are skipping a signal off one of the layers of the ionosphere like skipping a rock across a pond. This results in the signal going much farther, but depending on several factors I won't go into right now, like skipping a rock across a pond you wind up with gaps in coverage (a.k.a. skip zones.) This explains why your Uncle Bob's ham radio can talk to Hoo Flung Poo in Yokota, but not to your Uncle Elmer's 75 miles away.

NVIS is different. It is used mostly in military applications, because its maximum range is typically somewhere between 100-400 miles, which makes it less interesting for HDs. The truly interesting thing about it, though, is that it covers 0-whatever max with NO gaps in coverage, making it VERY useful for military applications that are out of VHF range because of distance, terrain, or whatever.

One of the coolest things about NVIS is that it uses a LOW antenna, not a high one, because the lower your antenna is, the more the signal goes straight up, which is what you want in this application. It works like this: Picture taking a hose into your living room, pointing it straight up at the ceiling, and turning it on. You will get a more-or-less even distribution of water around the whole room, after it splashes (reflects) off the ceiling. So it is with NVIS propagation.

OK - why is this interesting? Because you can throw up a dipole at 6 feet off the ground and have reliable comms with anyone in range, including WAY out of VHF range.

More to follow if anyone's interested.

[Phila PD]

I'll be happy just to stay in short range contact with family and allies. Marine radios (Base and Hand Held) seem to work well with out all the jammed air waves when used inland. While not a next town deal I have had clear com past 20 miles. More then enough for my needs.

[LonghunterCO]

2Meter VHF Ham is the way to go.

Total Noob here: are these line of site? What are there range? LOS stuff doesn't go very far out here...

[LonghunterCO]

Preface: Don't jump in with comments about legality. Assume that when I'm talking about operating outside a ham band, I'm talking about emergency situations, which FCC rules clearly state is permissible (any mode, any power, any method available). This is a technical discussion, not a "OMGWTFBBQ!! The hams are going to DF your signal and come and paste pocket protectors all over your house!, and the FCC is going to burn your house down, fine you, and violate your daughter!" discussion.

I've been working on this very thing the last couple of weeks.

The Yaesu FT-897D is (imo) the best reasonably priced radio available for what we're talking about. After a simple modification, it is capable of transmitting 1.8-56mHz with no gaps, 136-173mHz no gaps, and 410-470mHz no gaps. Also, it is capable of USB/LSB, AM, FM, CW, and digital modes right out of the box. It puts out 100w of power on external 12V/23A power, and is capable of 20 watts on optional INTERNAL rechargeable LiPo battery packs. It has two very capable auto-tuners available for it, and they can be bolted right to the side of the rig.

A homemade dipole antenna rolls up on an extension cord reel nicely, and all this fits in a small ruck. On the internal batteries, you can expect at least 8 hours of continuous operation before you need to recharge (which can be done from 110 or from 12vdc.)

Couple this with a communication method known as NVIS, or Near-Vertical Incident Skywave, and things begin to get very interesting for the tactical communicator.

I differentiate the tactical communicator from the ham dork (hereafter TC and HD) because of the following:

The ham dork does not necessarily want to talk to a specific station. Normally, he wants to talk as far as possible with little regard for a specific contact, except for wanting to contact someone in a specific country. Oddly enough, they actually have contests to see how many random strangers they can talk to. It takes all kinds, I guess.
The tactical communicator wants to talk to a specific station/unit/person. This is an important distinction, because a successful comm shot to a specific station is a much more interesting problem than simply getting an antenna up and talking to somebody.


Without boring the shit out of you with technical details, just know that there are basically two methods by which radio waves propagate: skywave and groundwave....
More to follow if anyone's interested.

TAG for more info that helps me understand all this.

[K.L. Davis]

...Near-Vertical Incident Skywave...
We had a thing they called a Meteor Burst Transmitter, is this (sort of) the same thing?

[Heavy Metal]

We had a thing they called a Meteor Burst Transmitter, is this (sort of) the same thing?

Not Exactly:

http://www.mse-ta.com/meteorburst/meteorbursthowitworks.html

Vs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_Vertical_Incidence_Skywave

[QuietShootr]

We had a thing they called a Meteor Burst Transmitter, is this (sort of) the same thing?

No. MBTs look for ionized trails of air caused by penetration of meteors into the atmosphere to bounce burst transmissions off of.

NVIS is nothing more than high-angle HF radio bouncing straight down, instead of skipping horizontally long distances.

[K.L. Davis]

Works for me... I did enough of the commo thing to get qualed, give me a GRA-71 and a simple WX report could turn into something very bad :(

[QuietShootr]

Works for me... I did enough of the commo thing to get qualed, give me a GRA-71 and a simple WX report could turn into something very bad :(

Wow!! Old school! :D

[faithmyeyes]

Has anyone factored in comm-gear into their preps?

What you need before comm gear is a comm plan. Be specific - don't stop at, "Um, I'd like to be able to hear what's going on, I guess, and call for help if I need it." Once you know who you want to hear and who you want to talk to, you can pick gear that best fits the mission.

RF communication can essentially be broken into two types: line-of-sight (LOS) and beyond-line-of-sight (BLOS). Line-of-sight range is usually calculated by the "four-thirds earth rule:" multiply the distance to the visible horizon by 1.333 to approximately predict a radio wave's unobstructed LOS range. Tree foliage, buildings, terrain, etc, will reduce this range somewhat, depending on the radio frequency and power being used.

Options for LOS include FRS, GMRS, MURS, any business band, public service, or amateur radio operating at ~50 MHz and up, and the occasional oddball like eXRS. Virtually anything that can be used while mobile falls into this category. (Note that I'm speaking to the Tactical Communicator audience as QuietShootr defined in his post. There are mobile amateur HF rigs that can communicate BLOS, but not with the reliability that a tactical communicator would expect.) Each of these options has strengths and weaknesses, again depending on what your communication plan is.

Options for reliable BLOS are essentially limited to amateur radio frequencies. Go back and read QuietShootr's post on NVIS for one of the best options. To elaborate on that a little: NVIS only works on frequencies below 7 MHz, and works most reliably below 4 MHz. Although the antennas can be low, they still have to be long - meaning that you can carry a wire antenna with you, but to use it you'll have to stop and set up.

If one is available, you can communicate limited BLOS on amateur VHF/UHF frequencies using a repeater. A repeater in a good location can allow handheld transceivers to communicate over tens of miles, or even farther with multiple repeaters linked together. If you don't own the repeaters, though, you can't necessarily predict whether they will remain serviceable during a SHTF event.

Also, if listening is part of your comm plan, consider a dedicated receiver such as a scanner or shortwave radio. Transceivers do not necessarily have the best general-coverage receivers built in.

How does one power the equipment in the event of disruption to the grid? I've thought about solar panels, but I don't know if they'll pump the juice necessary to power the gear.

A 12V deep-cycle battery or battery bank with a solar charger is the way to go. The solar won't directly power your high-current transmitters, but it will charge your batteries when you're not using them.

One more piece of advice: get your amateur radio license, but be wary of the amateur emergency-communication groups such as ARES, RACES, etc. The personality of each local group is different, but many of them focus on augmenting "served agencies" (Red Cross, FEMA, etc) rather than directly helping their local communities be self-reliant in a disaster situation. Those groups tend to have a lot of wannabe G-men and folks who think keying their mic and giving their location will always bring timely help.

fme

[QuietShootr]

What you need before comm gear is a comm plan. Be specific - don't stop at, "Um, I'd like to be able to hear what's going on, I guess, and call for help if I need it." Once you know who you want to hear and who you want to talk to, you can pick gear that best fits the mission.

RF communication can essentially be broken into two types: line-of-sight (LOS) and beyond-line-of-sight (BLOS). Line-of-sight range is usually calculated by the "four-thirds earth rule:" multiply the distance to the visible horizon by 1.333 to approximately predict a radio wave's unobstructed LOS range. Tree foliage, buildings, terrain, etc, will reduce this range somewhat, depending on the radio frequency and power being used.

Options for LOS include FRS, GMRS, MURS, any business band, public service, or amateur radio operating at ~50 MHz and up, and the occasional oddball like eXRS. Virtually anything that can be used while mobile falls into this category. (Note that I'm speaking to the Tactical Communicator audience as QuietShootr defined in his post. There are mobile amateur HF rigs that can communicate BLOS, but not with the reliability that a tactical communicator would expect.) Each of these options has strengths and weaknesses, again depending on what your communication plan is.

Options for reliable BLOS are essentially limited to amateur radio frequencies. Go back and read QuietShootr's post on NVIS for one of the best options. To elaborate on that a little: NVIS only works on frequencies below 7 MHz, and works most reliably below 4 MHz. Although the antennas can be low, they still have to be long - meaning that you can carry a wire antenna with you, but to use it you'll have to stop and set up.

If one is available, you can communicate limited BLOS on amateur VHF/UHF frequencies using a repeater. A repeater in a good location can allow handheld transceivers to communicate over tens of miles, or even farther with multiple repeaters linked together. If you don't own the repeaters, though, you can't necessarily predict whether they will remain serviceable during a SHTF event.

Also, if listening is part of your comm plan, consider a dedicated receiver such as a scanner or shortwave radio. Transceivers do not necessarily have the best general-coverage receivers built in.



A 12V deep-cycle battery or battery bank with a solar charger is the way to go. The solar won't directly power your high-current transmitters, but it will charge your batteries when you're not using them.

One more piece of advice: get your amateur radio license, but be wary of the amateur emergency-communication groups such as ARES, RACES, etc. The personality of each local group is different, but many of them focus on augmenting "served agencies" (Red Cross, FEMA, etc) rather than directly helping their local communities be self-reliant in a disaster situation. Those groups tend to have a lot of wannabe G-men and folks who think keying their mic and giving their location will always bring timely help.

fme

This is pure gold, and absolutely true. For a sample of what you need to stay away from, visit http://www.hamsexy.com/cms/index.php . Ham radio, like guns, tends to attract wannabes and douchebags in incredible numbers. You will do well to limit your interaction with them in person to your actual license test. You think gun shows are bad? Visit a hamfest sometime. One major, and annoying, difference between the two crowds is that hams tend to be junior G-men in a big way - they are some of the biggest whiny complainers on the planet, and tend to some really bizarre behavior. See http://www.fcc.gov/eb/AmateurActions/files/Whitn09_08_07_5111.html or http://www.fcc.gov/eb/AmateurActions/files/Didon09_08_07_5107.html or http://www.fcc.gov/eb/AmateurActions/files/Lovol09_08_07_5109.html .

In re NVIS; fme is absolutely correct on all counts. The most compact antenna you can carry is an end-fed long wire, and the smallest one I've found usable below 4 mHz is around 72 feet. I use 14ga solid THHN, and roll it on a small extension cord reel.

[perna]

My off-road club uses CB to communicate on the trails or I never would have bought one. I did not think I would ever use it other than that, but it is nice to have while driving. They are great for getting traffic conditions/accident info, getting directions if you are lost, calling for help, or just something to do if you get bored and want to chat with random people.

You can buy them very inexpensively and they work fine if you have it tuned.

[faithmyeyes]

A couple of additional comments -

I want to clarify that my statement regarding ARES et al was not intended to be a blanket indictment of all amateur radio organizations. The largest ARES group in my area, for instance, focuses primarily on severe weather reporting and has an excellent relationship with the National Weather Service. They perform that function well, and only a few of them on the fringe get really rabid about things like FEMA certs and radio e-mail for the Red Cross. But things in some groups really get off in the weeds, and as QuietShootr said, many of the guys who are heavily into it aren't all that well-balanced. Some of them seem to feel like amateur radio is just waiting its turn to save the world, and that it's every operator's sacred and noble duty to be prepared for that day. By the way, who's bringing the beer?

Unfortunately, the ARRL (the amateur radio equivalent of NRA) seems to be in the same boat of pushing for integration with government services and "served agencies." They've co-opted the "hero" angle (When All Else Fails... AMATEUR RADIO (http://emergency-radio.org/communicate.html)) and gone wrong-headed in an attempt to attract membership. So in general, the amateur radio "party line" about what disaster communication looks like is probably quite different that what most self-reliant preppers would find sensible.

There can be some value found in being involved with a local club, though. I've been involved several times when a club has been called on to provide communication support for a community effort like a bike race, marathon, or even an SCCA motorsport event. These events can give you a valuable opportunity to prove your equipment and operating practice in a "real-world" tactical communication scenario.

Furthermore, if you can wade through the BS at some of the club meetings, you may find that the quiet older gentleman sitting against the wall is well worth getting to know. If it's communications or electronics you're interested in, some of those guys have truly been there and done that, with an amazing wealth of experience.

So yeah, understand that the culture can be a little weird, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You can be friendly, soak up some valuable tools and techniques, and quietly avoid the Kool-Aid table altogether. Then take home your new knowledge and make it work for you and yours.

And now for something completely different:
My off-road club uses CB

You can buy them very inexpensively and they work fine if you have it tuned.
How useful CB is depends on where and when you are. If you're close to major trucking arteries, you'll get a lot of unwanted signal. Additionally, CB operates on a frequency that is capable at certain times of long-distance skywave propagation or "skip." I can remember having a CB walkie-talkie as a kid and not being able to find a clear channel for all the South American operators.

Be wary of "peaked" or "tuned" CB transceivers, as they have often been modified in a way that makes their operation illegal. Yes, illegal operation is widespread on CB now that operator licenses are no longer required - but we want to be above reproach, don't we?

In an area with less interference, you can communicate over a fairly impressive range with a perfectly legal CB - especially if you have transceivers capable of single-sideband (SSB) operation. SSB into elevated horizontal antennas will work even better. And nobody has to take a test or pay a license fee to run one.

fme

[11b4v]

Very good information here. Faith, Quiet and Dave5339 are spot on.

I too have incorporated Ham into my plan/operation. Hoping to upgrade to General sometime in the fall. I too believe the FT 897 is the way to go for the same reasons stated.

Just like ARs, the accessories can expand your radio's capabilities. In addition to the equipment mentioned here, a Yaesu Ft 8800R cross band repeating radio and a simplex repeater can widen your "patrol area"

Some accessories that are worth their weight in gold are "do it yourself" In You can "boost" your 2m VHF radios with a simple J-Pole antenna made of TV twin lead that fits in a tent stake pouch. Trade off is similiar to HF; you'll have to stop and deploy the antenna by haning it in a tree.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/11B4V/DSC04069.jpg

[QuietShootr]

I'm building a terminated folded dipole right now (just waiting on the H U G E resistor and new balun to arrive) so I don't have to use an antenna tuner in the field.

An end-fed wire, or a dipole for that matter, has to be cut to a near approximation of the frequency you are going to use it on, or it doesn't work very well, even with a tuner. In a worst-case scenario of a very poorly matched antenna, you can damage your radio or even smoke your feed line.

The problem with cutting dipoles for a specific frequency is twofold: the usable bandwidth of a dipole is usually only about 100kHz (meaning, if I cut the antenna for 3 mHz, it will likely only be usable between 2.950 and 3.050 mHz. That's a lot wider than it sounds, but it still isn't very flexible in terms of rapidly switching frequencies (which is required for Automatic Link Establishment, among other things that we won't get into right now). If you want to reliably communicate using NVIS, you need to carry two dipoles: one cut for 40m and one cut for 80m. This is a pain in the ass.

The military solution is the folded, terminated dipole. The military version can be found here http://www.bwantennas.com/. As you can see, it's ruinously expensive, and if you know what you're doing, you can duplicate it for a hell of a lot less than 1700 bones.

The folded, terminated dipole is broadband - meaning it can (depending on construction) work from 2mHz to 28mHz WITHOUT using a tuner. Nothing is free, however, and you do pay for that with a reduced signal output. To me, the tradeoff is worth it to be able to use ONE antenna, and just hang it and link up instead of fiddle-fucking around with a tuner and several different antennas.

If anyone's interested, I can expand on this a bit more.

[LonghunterCO]

If anyone's interested, I can expand on this a bit more.

Interested.:)

[Navigating Collapse]

Here's what I'm looking for:

1) A base station that can receive/transmit as far as possible without requiring licensing
2) A base station that is mountable in a standard 19" equipment rack
4) Mobile/Handheld units compatible with the main base station

Pretty simple. My relatives all live within a 5-6 mile radius from my house, so it would be nice to stay in contact with them via radio if the main grid ever went down. Obviously, greater ranges would be better, but I have no idea how to even begin going that route.

It seems like CB might work for me, but I know pretty much nothing about the subject, whatsoever.

It would also be nice to be able to hear what's going on in the outside world, if the excrement hit the oscillator. Are there any units out there that offer the capability to receive but not transmit? Is it possible to extend the range of reception without transmission, legally? How?

My needs are pretty basic:

1) Stay in touch with family
2) Monitor beyond my locality

Again, longer distance = better, but I'm starting out from square one. I didn't expect some of the responses received.

I really need some hand-holding on this. Any links for comprehensive information? Any recommended products for my aforementioned list of stuff I'd like to have?

Obviously more range is more desirable, and if licensing isn't extremely high-priced, then it's an avenue I may be interested in.

Consider my perspective to this area being a guy going from a break-action shotgun, and wanting to dive into NFA, showing up in the AR-General Discussion section.

;)

[CJGarza]

All of this information is VERY interesting, seeing as I am a total idiot with respect to radio communication and such.

A couple of questions:

Where can I go to get a license?

Where can I go to buy some of these receivers/transmitters? How much do they cost?

[11Bravo]

All of this information is VERY interesting, seeing as I am a total idiot with respect to radio communication and such.
A couple of questions:
Where can I go to get a license?
Where can I go to buy some of these receivers/transmitters? How much do they cost?
http://www.arrl.org/arrlvec/examsearch.phtml

Put in your zip and distance and find a test site.
Tech license is quite easy and I think now $15.
Fairly simple HT (handy talkies -what most people think of as walkie talkies) can start around $100-ish.
Base stations can be thousands.
Find a nice simple dual-band HT (VHF/2meter - UHF/70cm) and you're off.
Get a copy of ARRL Repeater Directory and ask questions of people you meet.
Most of them will be happy to answer questions.
A good place from which to purchase is hamcity.com.
They seem to be a little lower in price than most and are very helpful.

BUT- be advised...
This hobby is just as expensive as shootin' irons and can easily be just as addictive. :rolleyes:

Greg
WØGRB

[CJGarza]

Thanks for the links 11Bravo.

Again, very useful.

How useful are the handheld radios (the "walkies") vs the "base station" style radios? I ask because it would be so convienient to just grab the handheld radio and chuck it into a pack, the other one seems like it would take up much more space. Can I get away with just the smaller one, or should it be used as a supplemental piece of hardware?

[11Bravo]

HTs are, well, handy.
With output up to maybe 6 watts range is somewhat limited, but bigger antennas tuned to a particular band help with that.
Really, a "system" would be most useful.
Non-mobile, longer range would be a base station.
They can be very heavy and need a lot of juice to run.
Mobile radio in the car.
HT for footborne/ATV/boat ops.
Right now I do not have a base station; I am looking at a 4-band mobile for use at home as opposed to a full-blown base because it's cheaper and takes up less room.

Like anything else, first step is to determine what you are wanting.
If you just want to monitor others a scanner will do you.
If you want short range comms (more than FRS/GMRS* and CB) a (couple) HT(s) will work well.
Want medium range, look at a unit designed for use in vehicles.
Long range? You'll need a base and look for an all-bander.
That'll require licenses beyond the tech but you'll be able to comm intercontinentally.
Literally.

Go to http://www.hamtestonline.com/ and take some sample tests, starting with the tech one.
Go take the test when you're comfortable you'll pass it and start finding out what its all about.

*GMRS legally requires a FCC license; I think $75 each.
For less than $50 you can take all three ham tests and do much more.

[Phila PD]

I use a standard full power Marine Radio and have a eight foot antenna on the roof, in-laws have the same set-up and they are 9.6 miles away. Clear com with none of the chatter a CB has, plus the cost is very low.

[11Bravo]

I use a standard full power Marine Radio and have a eight foot antenna on the roof, in-laws have the same set-up and they are 9.6 miles away. Clear com with none of the chatter a CB has, plus the cost is very low.

Uh, um, OK, if that works for you, but just a note, use of marine radios for land based comms is illegal.
Just sayin'.

[CJGarza]

For the needs I have it looks like a HT.

1) "listen" to local radio, including emergency transmissions.
2) Transmit short distances (inside of a city).

As interesting as listening to intercontinental radio transmissions may be (and honestly, it does intrigue me), my needs are more modest. Mabe later a midsized (for my truck) will be purchased. After I have much more, I will get the badass machine.

Does anyone have any suggestions on a good HT? mabe in the $300-$400 range?

[11Bravo]

$400 will get you about any HT you want; maybe two of them.
Kenwood TH-F6A or Yaesu VX-6R.
If you decide you want to do some APRSing find a good Kenwood TH-D7A.
Yaesu makes the VX-8R but it isn't as capable as the D7.
You'll have to look APRS up, too much to explain here, but it is what got me into ham.

[CJGarza]

Thanks for the info!! I am really taking a good look at the Yaesu VX-6R. Actually I may be able to afford 2, always good to have a spare, right?

[Heavy Metal]

I like the Yaesu VX-170.

It is built like a brick shit-house and is dirt cheap.

The only downside is where it is waterproof, you need to be closer to the mike to articulate it well.

[flecom]

Here's what I'm looking for:

1) A base station that can receive/transmit as far as possible without requiring licensing
2) A base station that is mountable in a standard 19" equipment rack
4) Mobile/Handheld units compatible with the main base station

Pretty simple. My relatives all live within a 5-6 mile radius from my house, so it would be nice to stay in contact with them via radio if the main grid ever went down. Obviously, greater ranges would be better, but I have no idea how to even begin going that route.

It seems like CB might work for me, but I know pretty much nothing about the subject, whatsoever.

It would also be nice to be able to hear what's going on in the outside world, if the excrement hit the oscillator. Are there any units out there that offer the capability to receive but not transmit? Is it possible to extend the range of reception without transmission, legally? How?

My needs are pretty basic:

1) Stay in touch with family
2) Monitor beyond my locality

Again, longer distance = better, but I'm starting out from square one. I didn't expect some of the responses received.

I really need some hand-holding on this. Any links for comprehensive information? Any recommended products for my aforementioned list of stuff I'd like to have?

Obviously more range is more desirable, and if licensing isn't extremely high-priced, then it's an avenue I may be interested in.

Consider my perspective to this area being a guy going from a break-action shotgun, and wanting to dive into NFA, showing up in the AR-General Discussion section.

;)

the only base stations that your going to be able to use license free are CB and POSSIBLY MURS, depends on your area

i would recommend you look into a GMRS license, they are not very expensive, they cover immediate family, and let you use UHF base stations, with an outside base antennas at each location you should easily be able to communicate those distances...

to extend the range more you could setup (or if there are any in your area, ask permission to use) a GMRS repeater.. but you would ideally need a high-site for it... aka a building, tower, something

a repeater is a pair of radios (a transmitter and a receiver) that operate in full duplex... aka the receiver receives a signal and immediately transmits it out the transmitter on a offset frequency...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeater

you can also make a "simplex" repeater, which uses one radio, to receive, record the transmission onto something (tape, digital recorder etc) and then when its done receiving the transmission, retransmit it on the same frequency... these are great because they can be small, and easily deployed, we use them in our SHTF drills, but they require some patience because only one person can transmit at a time so you have to make sure you dont key up over someone

heres my ham (2M VHF) repeater... its on top of a 550~ft building in downtown miami

http://flecom.fragmachines.com/%5bh%5d/finterview/DSC00324s.JPG

equipment in the cabinet, repeater controller, transmitter, receiver, circulator/isolator panel, power supply (the cabinets next to mine belong to many three letter agencies)

http://flecom.fragmachines.com/%5bh%5d/finterview/DSC00335s.JPG

duplexer/filter

this protects the reciever from the transmitter and vice-versa and allows both radios to connect to the same antenna at the same time and function at the same time...

http://flecom.fragmachines.com/%5bh%5d/finterview/DSC03386.JPG

us mounting the 24' antenna in the middle of the night lol

longest conversation i have heard on it between two people is from key largo to west palm beach... about 100 miles...

[QuietShootr]

My terminated, folded dipole is built - pics to follow later during a field test. Its noise level is VERY low, which is a good thing for where I live (a very RF noisy environment).

As to what HT to get: the Mercedes of HTs, in my opinion, is the Yaesu VX-8R http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0008.html. Submersible, super-flexible, and really, really tough.

[QuietShootr]

Damn!! the terminated, folded dipole is a VERY effective antenna for NVIS. Improv comm shot from vehicle to vehicle (stop, pull into protected area, deploy antenna) was perfect.

Antenna was only 5 feet off the ground.

[11Bravo]

Damn!! the terminated, folded dipole is a VERY effective antenna for NVIS. Improv comm shot from vehicle to vehicle (stop, pull into protected area, deploy antenna) was perfect.

Antenna was only 5 feet off the ground.

Do tell, do tell.

[QuietShootr]

A few articles to help explain NVIS:

http://harriscountyares.org/training/training_nvis_01.pdf

http://www.qsl.net/wb5ude/nvis/

http://www.w0ipl.net/ECom/NVIS/nvis.htm

[QuietShootr]

Next test successful. Performed a no-notice vehicle-to-vehicle NVIS shot from Central indiana to central ohio.

This is really starting to be interesting.

Next: tips on constructing your own tactical NVIS rig.

[jaholder]

A couple of additional comments -

I want to clarify that my statement regarding ARES et al was not intended to be a blanket indictment of all amateur radio organizations. The largest ARES group in my area, for instance, focuses primarily on severe weather reporting and has an excellent relationship with the National Weather Service. They perform that function well, and only a few of them on the fringe get really rabid about things like FEMA certs and radio e-mail for the Red Cross. But things in some groups really get off in the weeds, and as QuietShootr said, many of the guys who are heavily into it aren't all that well-balanced. Some of them seem to feel like amateur radio is just waiting its turn to save the world, and that it's every operator's sacred and noble duty to be prepared for that day. By the way, who's bringing the beer?

My ARES group does a lot of weather spotting, but it doesn't end there. We work directly for the county 911 and built the county's EMCOMM van for cost of materials. We roll it out whenever any county Public Safety agency requests it and even man the radios if the agency requesting it cannot. We've earned the respect of the Public Agencies we serve and don't tolerate the bozo element.

The FEMA certs you mention are probably the IS100,200, 700 and 800 courses. The reason why it's being pushed is because it's being mandated gradually for everyone working an incident, it's mandatory for First Responders and is tied to FEMA funding. Besides, it's good training even for your own personal or family disaster planning.

Unfortunately, the ARRL (the amateur radio equivalent of NRA) seems to be in the same boat of pushing for integration with government services and "served agencies." They've co-opted the "hero" angle (When All Else Fails... AMATEUR RADIO (http://emergency-radio.org/communicate.html)) and gone wrong-headed in an attempt to attract membership. So in general, the amateur radio "party line" about what disaster communication looks like is probably quite different that what most self-reliant preppers would find sensible.

The problem with this is that the ARRL's Media campaign is factually correct: When the public safety and cell phone towers fall, usually it's the geeky guy with all the radios who can cobble together a few pieces of wire and is able to get messages out at least to the other geeky guys in the next town.

Remember the Falklands war? How about the Grenada before we invaded? The only information anyone had about what was going on during both those crises was from ham radio operators on their respective islands. Same thing happened with Katrina. More than a few agencies who thought HF was a dead mode of communication were schooled during Katrina and it was ham radio that demonstrated the fact it still had use in disasters. I've read more than a few after-action reports from Rita and Katrina where it mentions those same screwball hams who set up in the field, on their own, made a big difference.



There can be some value found in being involved with a local club, though. I've been involved several times when a club has been called on to provide communication support for a community effort like a bike race, marathon, or even an SCCA motorsport event. These events can give you a valuable opportunity to prove your equipment and operating practice in a "real-world" tactical communication scenario.

+100



Furthermore, if you can wade through the BS at some of the club meetings, you may find that the quiet older gentleman sitting against the wall is well worth getting to know. If it's communications or electronics you're interested in, some of those guys have truly been there and done that, with an amazing wealth of experience.

So yeah, understand that the culture can be a little weird, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You can be friendly, soak up some valuable tools and techniques, and quietly avoid the Kool-Aid table altogether. Then take home your new knowledge and make it work for you and yours.

All I'm going to say is that the parallels between gunowners and hams is uncanny. Everything you've said about hams could generallay be said about the shooting community as a whole. Remember that.

And now for something completely different:

How useful CB is depends on where and when you are. If you're close to major trucking arteries, you'll get a lot of unwanted signal. Additionally, CB operates on a frequency that is capable at certain times of long-distance skywave propagation or "skip." I can remember having a CB walkie-talkie as a kid and not being able to find a clear channel for all the South American operators.

Be wary of "peaked" or "tuned" CB transceivers, as they have often been modified in a way that makes their operation illegal. Yes, illegal operation is widespread on CB now that operator licenses are no longer required - but we want to be above reproach, don't we?

In an area with less interference, you can communicate over a fairly impressive range with a perfectly legal CB - especially if you have transceivers capable of single-sideband (SSB) operation. SSB into elevated horizontal antennas will work even better. And nobody has to take a test or pay a license fee to run one.

fme

[Navigating Collapse]

Stole this "Idiot's Guide" from Jim Rawles' website:

"Amateur Radio for the Rest of Us, by Jim in Illinois

In the modern world, there are few things as critical as the propagation of information. Anytime, day or night, we have access to news, weather, and interpersonal communications. When that information is
unavailable whether due to a misplaced cell phone, internet disruption, or other factor, we begin to panic, feeling cut off and isolated.

When disaster strikes, up to date information could be as vital to your survival as food, shelter, or a means to defend yourself.

We can all make plans for our retreat and relocation, but without a means of contacting one another when the time comes, all we can do is wait and hope that everyone is on their way.

What is amateur radio?
Amateur radio, also known as ham radio, is a service designed for the purpose of intercommunication between individuals whether for casual chatting, emergency preparation, or in the event of an actual emergency. The FCC permits citizens that have proven proficiency in FCC rule and of reasonable technical ability to use this service. To do so, one must pass a written exam and register their information with the FCC to obtain a license. Transmitting on amateur radio bands without a license could subject a person to fines or even imprisonment. However, there is one caveat to this rule. During an emergency, when lives are at risk, anything goes.

The phrase “anything goes” rarely has as much significance as it does in a TEOTWAWKI situation. Now, I am certainly not condoning the unlicensed use of amateur radio. But there may come a time that the only thing between you and rescue is a ham transceiver.
As quoted in the FCC amateur radio rule book:

§97.405 Station in distress.
(a) No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station in distress of any means at its disposal to attract attention, make known its condition and location, and obtain assistance.
(b) No provision of these rules prevents the use by a station, in the exceptional circumstances described in paragraph (a), of any means of radio communications at its disposal to assist a station in distress.

Note: With that said, I would still encourage anyone making any effort in preparation to seriously consider following the licensing procedure.

Amateur radio signals are capable of traveling thousands of miles, or as short as tens of miles.
There are many factors that will affect the distance your signal will travel.
Some of them include:

Transmit Frequency
Just like with an AM/FM radio, there is a wide spread of radio frequencies that signals can be received on. Common allocations for amateur radio can be found anywhere from 3M MegaHertz (MHz) to well over 440MHz.

Typically the lower frequencies, from 3-30MHz (High Frequency or HF) provide the greatest distance with the least amount of power. This is accomplished by natural phenomena called ‘propagation’, which will be explained later.

VHF 30-300MHz (Very High Frequency) and UHF 300-3000MHz (Ultra High Frequency) offer a very high quality signal for ‘line of site’ distances up to about 50 miles. Police, fire, and private services rely on these frequencies due to the clarity and reliability of communications. FRS/GMRS (Family Radio Service) radios use 460MHz (UHF).

Antenna
In amateur radio, the most important factor is the antenna. An antenna can be as simple as a long piece of wire strung through a tree, or as large as an array of directional antennas hundreds of feet in the air. Just because it’s simple though, doesn’t mean it won’t work. I have talked to a ham in Portugal from my living room in Illinois using nothing more than a piece of wire looped around my ceiling fan.
‘Any’ antenna will work better than ‘no antenna’.

Transmit Power
Transmit power is measured in watts. While amateur radio has a limit of 1,500 Watts, most transceivers will only put out about 50-100 watts. Ideally, the more watts put out, the farther the signal will travel. You must also remember though, the more watts transmitted, the more power the radio consumes. This is something to keep in mind when battery power is in precious demand.
It is generally a good practice to keep output power low when possible, and make up the difference with improvements in your antenna. I have talked to Japan on 5 watts from Illinois. Power isn’t everything.

Propagation
During the day, solar rays charge different layers of the atmosphere which create a reflective barrier for radio waves. As the sun fades for the day, so does our propagation.
Higher frequencies require a higher amount of charged particles. Radio waves that do not bounce are simply absorbed or pass right through. During times of good propagation, it is possible to send very weak signals across the globe.
We can, to an extent, control how far our signal will go by utilizing the three main types of propagation.

Skywave (long skip)
By utilizing an antenna that has a low take off angle, like a vertical antenna or high dipole (like your FM stereo comes with), our signals are directed at the horizon which will hit the atmosphere and bounce back to earth. (The earth is round, remember?)

NVIS (Near Vertical Incidence Skywave)
With a lower dipole antenna or tilted vertical antenna, we increase the angle of the radio waves. Therefore, the waves go up sharply and bounce down much closer.

Groundwave (line of sight)
Line of sight communications solely rely on the receiving station being within a straight line of the sending station. A walkie-talkie is a good example of this. Repeaters, which I will cover below, are often used to increase range of line of site radio equipment. Output power and antenna height greatly improve line-of-sight (LOS) communication.

Setting up a station

When determining what radio equipment will suit your needs, you must first decide on a few things.

How far do I need to communicate?
How portable will I need it to be?
How much can I spend?
VHF/UHF
If you answered the first question with “less than 50 miles”, then you can easily set yourself up with a useable system for under $200. VHF and UHF transceivers are often called 2 meter and 70 centimeter radios, respectively. 2M and 70CM refer to the length of the actual radio wave. 2M operates around 145MHz and 70CM operates around 440MHz.

Handhelds
A handheld unit has the advantage of small size, internal battery pack, and built in antenna. On the other hand, the small size, internal battery pack, and built in antenna is a serious compromise regarding transmit and receive distance. Typical handhelds maximum power output is about 5 watts and the internal battery won’t last long at that power level. The functionality of a handheld unit relies on repeaters. Without a repeater, a handheld would be limited to about 10 miles or less.

A repeater is a transceiver with a very high antenna that receives a signal on one frequency, and retransmits on another, usually at a much higher power. Through the use of repeaters, it is possible to work stations >100 miles away with a walkie-talkie. This may sound like fine business, but repeaters are privately owned and would likely be locked down by the owners, without power, or seized by the government, should society crumble.

Mobiles
Mobile units are designed to be mounted in a vehicle and are powered by 12 volts. Although an external antenna is required, this gives the user the flexibility to decide which antenna works best for them. Most mobile units can produce at least 50 watts and can be reduced to lower power as needed. A base or even portable station can be easily setup using a mobile radio, rechargeable 12 VDC battery, and an antenna placed as high as possible. With careful planning and experimenting, this system can be optimized to reach distances of 50 miles or more, creating an efficient point-to-point communication link.

HF
For nationwide communication, HF is going to be the winner hands down. HF radios are typically capable of more than 100 watts and under good conditions can talk coast to coast and across the ocean. The greater distance is attributed to propagation, as described earlier.
The biggest stumbling block with HF radios is the cost. With a starting price of around $700, most folks will find it very hard to make room in their budget for this.
Another consideration is the antenna. To work efficiently, an antenna should be at least ¼ wavelength long. Depending on the frequency, this could be anywhere between 10’ to well over 60’. But as stated before, any antenna is better than no antenna.

Conclusion
Undoubtedly, whether your plans are staying or relocating, reliable communications will be a must for you and your group. This article is written as a primer into amateur radio and to simplify what can seem to be an overwhelming step of preparedness. There are hundreds of volumes written on the subject, and I would encourage anyone serious about prepping to research further.

I really can’t stress enough that you should take the time now to get licensed and work out any problems before they occur."

Links:
www.arrl.org Find testing locations and just about anything else ham-related.
www.qrz.com Take online practice tests for amateur radio exams

[HiggsBoson]

@Landlord:Thanks for the info, and the thought-provoking post.

I recently bought (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0014TCU9K/ref=nosim/?tag=etoncorpo-20) two Etón FR1000 Voicelink FR-1000 (http://www.etoncorp.com/product_card/?p_ProductDbId=321378) radios. They are portable but not pocket-sized. I plan to get the license to use it legally, though almost no one seems to do so. I also intend to find a few decent quality handhelds to go with them and include those in my go-bag. These units are pretty sturdy, and not the typical all-in-one device that breaks in a week.

* 22 GMRS (General Mobile Radio System)/FRS (Family Radio System) channels
* 121 privacy codes (38 CTCSS / 83 DCS)
* AM/FM receiver
* VOX (Voice operated transmission)
* NOAA weather radio and NOAA weather alert
* Siren and Flashlight
* Can be powered from four different sources:
o Rechargeable Ni-MH battery (built-in)
o Dynamo crank alone
o 4 “AA” batteries
o AC Adapter (included)
* Cell-phone charging jack


Here's what the FCC has to say about range of different short-distance radio types:

* FRS - range less than one mile
* CB - range 1 to 5 miles
* GMRS - range 5 to 25 miles

This is, obviously, under ideal conditions, and with fairly high (>2watt for GMRS) power output . In hilly terrain, bad weather, and/or lower power conditions, the laws of physics take over. ;) So fairly short distance, but probably good enough for most of my intended purposes.

While I'm interested in HAM for longer distances, I don't think it is going to be right for me. The hardware, time, and licensure requirements are much greater, so it will have to be back-burnered until I take care of other priorities.

[Heavy Metal]

The hardware, time, and licensure requirements are much greater,


You just think it is.


Two weeks can get you your technician liscense and $500 can get you a good 2meter mobile and two good 2M HT's+an Antenna for the Mobile.

http://www.gigaparts.com/store.php?action=profile&sku=zys-ft-2800

http://www.gigaparts.com/store.php?action=profile&sku=ZYS-FT-270R

Add about $70 for a good 1/2 wave mobile antenna. I like Larsen myself.

You are still well under $500. This does not have to be an expensive hobby unless you make it one.

[QuietShootr]

@Landlord:Thanks for the info, and the thought-provoking post.

I recently bought (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0014TCU9K/ref=nosim/?tag=etoncorpo-20) two Etón FR1000 Voicelink FR-1000 (http://www.etoncorp.com/product_card/?p_ProductDbId=321378) radios. They are portable but not pocket-sized. I plan to get the license to use it legally, though almost no one seems to do so. I also intend to find a few decent quality handhelds to go with them and include those in my go-bag. These units are pretty sturdy, and not the typical all-in-one device that breaks in a week.

* 22 GMRS (General Mobile Radio System)/FRS (Family Radio System) channels
* 121 privacy codes (38 CTCSS / 83 DCS)
* AM/FM receiver
* VOX (Voice operated transmission)
* NOAA weather radio and NOAA weather alert
* Siren and Flashlight
* Can be powered from four different sources:
o Rechargeable Ni-MH battery (built-in)
o Dynamo crank alone
o 4 “AA” batteries
o AC Adapter (included)
* Cell-phone charging jack


Here's what the FCC has to say about range of different short-distance radio types:

* FRS - range less than one mile
* CB - range 1 to 5 miles
* GMRS - range 5 to 25 miles

This is, obviously, under ideal conditions, and with fairly high (>2watt for GMRS) power output . In hilly terrain, bad weather, and/or lower power conditions, the laws of physics take over. ;) So fairly short distance, but probably good enough for most of my intended purposes.

While I'm interested in HAM for longer distances, I don't think it is going to be right for me. The hardware, time, and licensure requirements are much greater, so it will have to be back-burnered until I take care of other priorities.

There's no way in hell you're going to get even 3 miles out of a GMRS handheld if you're talking to another handheld.


In re ARES:
http://www.hamsexy.com/ARES1.jpg

[HiggsBoson]

I appreciate the additional info, HeavyMetal, and after spending more time in this thread and elsewhere, I do intend to move toward HAM when I have more time and money to invest, but I still think my point is valid. I have very little initial investment (in time or $$) and I am already using a system that works moderately well, albeit not in the longer distances I would prefer.

There's no way in hell you're going to get even 3 miles out of a GMRS handheld if you're talking to another handheld.


Agreed and understood. Hence my comment about the laws of physics... I'm intending the handhelds only as supplementary to the larger units I already have. The higher-wattage units get more distance, especially with a larger antenna, and I have two of them for the two places with which I feel the need to communicate. I am also going to have handhelds to be rapidly portable in case I need to hoof it. Much like I did with firearms, in buying and learning a reliable pistol before I got into carbines, I am making comms purchases based on the time and $$ commitment I feel like I can make at the current time. Having GMRS today is better than planning to invest in HAM and not having anything in hand. Now that I have it, I can spend a few months researching HAM and learning about it. When I feel like I know enough to make an informed purchase that will meet my needs, only then will I take that step.

As with every time I post in this wonderful forum, I mostly just learn how much I have yet to learn. This is why I'm in this thread, after all. To bounce ideas and to learn.

[03humpalot]

Juyst revieved this via email and thought i would share. What do the comm guru's here think about this particular radio?

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=572929

[HiggsBoson]

That's a GMRS radio (more info about that model here (http://www.amazon.com/Midland-GXT720VP3-2-Way-30-Mile-36-Channel/dp/B0015ADLIC)), so you can see by their replies to my GMRS-related posting above what QuietShootr thinks of GMRS. In other words, their claims about the expected distances (http://www.popularwireless.com/gmrsrange.html), especially for handhelds, are far over-blown. Here's a page (http://thetravelinsider.info/2003/0815.htm) where they did some reviews of GMRS devices to objectively test their claims. It doesn't look promising, especially in urban areas, or heavy terrain with thick vegetation. The best model they tested required an external antenna on both devices and "managed to communicate an incredible 6.15 miles, with 4.7 of those miles being over land and only 1.45 miles being over water."

As shown in one of the links I provided, the main factors in determining the distance the signal travels are:
- The output power of the radio.
- The height of the transmitting and receiving antenna[s]
- The position of the antenna relative to the Earth. (horizontal or vertical)
- The terrain and vegetation.

As HeavyMetal suggested, you might be better off saving your money and investing in a decent HAM setup. However, I decided that I'd start with a GMRS device and then move on to something more robust later. Just don't expect the thing to get 30 miles. That's not at all likely.



Juyst revieved this via email and thought i would share. What do the comm guru's here think about this particular radio?

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=572929

[QuietShootr]

Juyst revieved this via email and thought i would share. What do the comm guru's here think about this particular radio?

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=572929

30 miles?!?! I'd rent out my wife for a couple of hours for a pair of handhelds that could talk to each other at 30 miles without an external antenna or a repeater of any kind.

Their ad people are smoking crack.

GMRS is in the upper 400mHz UHF band, which is not what you want for best range, except inside a building. VHF will get you better range outdoors, and you can get much tougher business-band radios that are usable in the VHF bands. What you want would be something like this: http://www.reddogradios.com/index.php?target=products&product_id=30188.

For best frequency agility and toughness, I'm pretty sold on this for now: http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0008.html.

Think of things like the Midland set referenced above as a DPMS. Works some of the time, looks almost the same, but will likely shit the bed on you at the worst possible moment.

[QuietShootr]

That's a GMRS radio (more info about that model here (http://www.amazon.com/Midland-GXT720VP3-2-Way-30-Mile-36-Channel/dp/B0015ADLIC)), so you can see by their replies to my GMRS-related posting above what QuietShootr thinks of GMRS. In other words, their claims about the expected distances (http://www.popularwireless.com/gmrsrange.html), especially for handhelds, are far over-blown. Here's a page (http://thetravelinsider.info/2003/0815.htm) where they did some reviews of GMRS devices to objectively test their claims. It doesn't look promising, especially in urban areas, or heavy terrain with thick vegetation. The best model they tested required an external antenna on both devices and "managed to communicate an incredible 6.15 miles, with 4.7 of those miles being over land and only 1.45 miles being over water."

As shown in one of the links I provided, the main factors in determining the distance the signal travels are:
- The output power of the radio.
- The height of the transmitting and receiving antenna[s]
- The position of the antenna relative to the Earth. (horizontal or vertical)
- The terrain and vegetation.

As HeavyMetal suggested, you might be better off saving your money and investing in a decent HAM setup. However, I decided that I'd start with a GMRS device and then move on to something more robust later. Just don't expect the thing to get 30 miles. That's not at all likely.

I would change your list to read:

- The height of the transmitting and receiving antenna[s]
- The terrain and vegetation.
- The output power of the radio.
- The position of the antenna relative to the Earth. (horizontal or vertical)

At VHF/UHF, antenna height is everything. I can put 100w into a vhf antenna that's six feet high, and I'm going to get about eight miles out of it to another antenna at the same elevation, given normal terrain around here. Conversely, I've used a handheld running 500mw from the cabin of an aircraft at 700 feet to talk to a repeater with an antenna at 50ft over 70 miles away, with a good enough signal to activate the repeater's autopatch (a phone connection) and make a phone call.

This is another good thing about the professional radios referenced above - the ability to attach an external antenna. You can make a simple j-pole antenna out of a length of 300 ohm standard TV flat twin-lead cable, attach it to a 20 foot length of coax, and toss it up into a tree using a weighted piece of cord...bam. Instant tripling of your range, at least, depending on terrain.

[jaholder]

Juyst revieved this via email and thought i would share. What do the comm guru's here think about this particular radio?

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=572929

It's probably a FRS/GMRS combination radio. Using a GMRS repeater, yes. 30 miles one way using an HT? Nope.

[Heavy Metal]

Conversely, I've used a handheld running 500mw from the cabin of an aircraft at 700 feet to talk to a repeater with an antenna at 50ft over 70 miles away, with a good enough signal to activate the repeater's autopatch (a phone connection) and make a phone call.


I was hiking the AT a couple of weeks ago and was at 4100ft ASL on the Southern rim of Burkes Garden on the Tazewell/Bland Co VA border.

I worked a guy in Winston Salem NC on a half-watt on a VX-170 with a rubber duck antenna(not factory but a 3rd party upgrade. The factory would still have worked fine).

The repeater was in Sparta and was on a freq I had saved in the radio for Charleston,WV and I was curious where it was to be so strong(and by the calls, it was obviously in '4' Land where CH, WV is '8' Land).

The repeater was 40 miles away and the fellow on the otheer end was 90 miles from my location as measured on Google Earth.

1/2 Watt and five by five signal.

There is no substitute for elevation.

[03humpalot]

Roger that,thanks much guys.

Quietshooter...which frequency range would you suggest for communicating in a heavily wooded area?

From your link above.

1.)VHF 150-162 MHz (VX-424)
2.)VHF 162-174 MHz (VX-424)

[jaholder]

There's no way in hell you're going to get even 3 miles out of a GMRS handheld if you're talking to another handheld.


In re ARES:
http://www.hamsexy.com/ARES1.jpg

It appears to me that the guy who runs hamsexy.com has a real hardon for ARES/RACES and amateurs in general, especially if he has to resort to really bad photoshopped images to make his point. All he's doing is painting bad bad picture for all of us, not just the bozos.

[Heavy Metal]

Roger that,thanks much guys.

Quietshooter...which frequency range would you suggest for communicating in a heavily wooded area?

From your link above.

1.)VHF 150-162 MHz (VX-424)
2.)VHF 162-174 MHz (VX-424)


1 will be slightly better but the two are so close together, there will be little practical difference.

[K.L. Davis]

I have to admit... beyond using this stuff, I was never much of a commo guy - I want to get a handheld/portable/rover and have seen this brand a lot shopping the internet...

I have never heard the name before, is it a good brand? Why not get one? Run like hell? Please share what you know...

[QuietShootr]

I have to admit... beyond using this stuff, I was never much of a commo guy - I want to get a handheld/portable/rover and have seen this brand a lot shopping the internet...

I have never heard the name before, is it a good brand? Why not get one? Run like hell? Please share what you know...

Which brand, sir?

[QuietShootr]

1 will be slightly better but the two are so close together, there will be little practical difference.

Agreed, except that I'd go for 1 ALSO because the higher range is almost exclusively mil/govt freqs, so I'd be a little more cautious about freebanding in there.

Really, your best buy is the VX-8. It'll do all that and more, and it's under 400 bones.

[HiggsBoson]

Which brand, sir?

According to his post title, the brand is: Wouxun (http://www.wouxun.com/)

They're a Chinese manufacturer of two-ways.

[QuietShootr]

According to his post title, the brand is: Wouxun (http://www.wouxun.com/)

They're a Chinese manufacturer of two-ways.

Never heard of them. I ask you this, though - would you order a gun from Hoo Flung Poo and trust it to save your ass?

[HiggsBoson]

Never heard of them. I ask you this, though - would you order a gun from Hoo Flung Poo and trust it to save your ass?

Well, it wasn't me asking it was Mr. Davis. However, if I were going to judge based on the name, I probably wouldn't trust a foreign-sounding name like "Yaesu" either, but people here seem to think highly of them. To go back to your firearms metaphor: if I had never heard of "Fabrique Nationale de Herstal" and I only knew they were Belgian, I might not trust them either. Sounds French or something.

[Heavy Metal]

However, if I were going to judge based on the name, I probably wouldn't trust a foreign-sounding name like "Yaesu" either, but people here seem to think highly of them.

That is because Yaesu is a highly-regarded company with an excellent reputation built up by decades of sales and service. Would you trust a foreign-sounding name like Sony?

[HiggsBoson]

That is because Yaesu is a highly-regarded company with an excellent reputation built up by decades of sales and service. Would you trust a foreign-sounding name like Sony?

Point taken. Though I'm no longer a fan of Sony either, it's because of their design and corporate choices, not their manufacturing quality. Also, there's generally a world of difference between Japanese (or South Korean) electronics and those from China.

[jaholder]

According to his post title, the brand is: Wouxun (http://www.wouxun.com/)

They're a Chinese manufacturer of two-ways.

I've been a ham for 18 years and working in telecom for 14. I've never heard of Wouxun.

From looking at their website, I doubt they're FCC type certified. They seem to be gunning for the Asian market.

[QuietShootr]

Agreed.

Folks, you can trust Yaesu. Funny name, but they've been making good comm equipment since the Emperor was a mess cook. They tend more toward ruggedized gear than some of the other mfrs.

[QuietShootr]

To get this party back on track: Successful NVIS HF shot was achieved tonight between three mobile/stopped stations approximately 70 miles apart in a flat triangle.

Lesson learned: Antenna is EVERYTHING. you can be heard on 5w if conditions are right,but with a good antenna, you can be heard on 100 even when conditions are shit.

So. Cincy to Indy is the road distance record in a straight line. but to Chicago is a little different.

This is shaping up to be a useful drill. Unfortunately it's going to be a skill, not jst a pick-up the radio and talk.

Makes we commo geeks a little more valuable, I guess.

[Heavy Metal]

And I might add that Yaesu/Vertex Sandard is now owned by an American company by the name of Motorola.

[QuietShootr]

Anyone interested in an M4Carbine HF net?

[Heavy Metal]

Mabey when I get my General Ticket. I am holding back cuz if I get it, I will go spend money on a new radio.

[dsmguy7]

This subject is very interesting. I have to admit that I have not factored comms into my preparations. Hell, I'm still on the basics: food, water, guns, medical, fuel, ammo. Being LE I'm guessing that I would be more inclined to bug in than out, but would like to have a place in the deep country to bug out. I guess I would need a base or strong mobile set up with some hand helds on the same frequency. Most of my family/ friends live within 25 mi. I have some outside of that, but doubt that they have the money for any of this. Quiet Shooter: NVIS seems the most applicable for me so far. Can you school me or recommend resources to study?

[Navigating Collapse]

What's the maximum wattage output for an unlicensed operator?

[ColdDeadHands]

What's the maximum wattage output for an unlicensed operator?

I might be wrong but I'm thinking 0. That being said, how many people have a license for using walkie talkies?

[Navigating Collapse]

Fair enough.

From what I've seen the Yaesu handhelds are like ARs; infinitely user-customisable.

I wouldn't mind diving headfirst into the Amateur Operator world, but I'm beyond ignorant.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a good home/starter setup?

Anyone want to provide pictures, info, etc. on their personal setup, why you chose it, etc.?

Aside from the lack of experience, the initial startup cost is relatively high. I would hate to get a rig that would quickly be outgrown, but I'd also hate to get a rig that is the bee's knees, that's beyond my needs.

Browsing eBay, it looks as though these things hold up extremely well, and have an excellent service life. So it might be advantageous to procure the best setup I can afford, since it should be a long-term investment.

I also need to check my neighborhood's covenants to see if I can get away with roof-mounting. One of my neighbors has a ~25' flag pole with Old Glory and the Marine Corps flag in his front yard, so I'm thinking my new neighborhood might be pretty cool. If worse comes to worse, I'm at the end of the cul-de-sac, with woods behind me, so I may be able to use a tree.

ETA: Does this qualify as radio porn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCGrDlBQ1bY

[11Bravo]

Mabey when I get my General Ticket. I am holding back cuz if I get it, I will go spend money on a new radio.

Same same here.

[QuietShootr]

Fair enough.
From what I've seen the Yaesu handhelds are like ARs; infinitely user-customisable. I wouldn't mind diving headfirst into the Amateur Operator world, but I'm beyond ignorant.
Does anyone have any recommendations for a good home/starter setup?
Anyone want to provide pictures, info, etc. on their personal setup, why you chose it, etc.?
Aside from the lack of experience, the initial startup cost is relatively high. I would hate to get a rig that would quickly be outgrown, but I'd also hate to get a rig that is the bee's knees, that's beyond my needs.
Browsing eBay, it looks as though these things hold up extremely well, and have an excellent service life. So it might be advantageous to procure the best setup I can afford, since it should be a long-term investment.
I also need to check my neighborhood's covenants to see if I can get away with roof-mounting. One of my neighbors has a ~25' flag pole with Old Glory and the Marine Corps flag in his front yard, so I'm thinking my new neighborhood might be pretty cool. If worse comes to worse, I'm at the end of the cul-de-sac, with woods behind me, so I may be able to use a tree.


To answer your questions in order:
Don't get a handheld for your first radio. Handhelds are like pistols - useful within a very narrow band of tasks, but given the choice, a carbine is nearly always better. HTs are good for short-range tactical communications, and not much else.
Warning: personal opinions follow.
I believe the Yaesu FT-897D to be the best single choice for users like us. This is arguable: there are comparable rigs out there, except for one thing - It has the capability to have two internal rechargeable battery packs installed that allow you to operate independent of external power if necessary. It is more ruggedly constructed than most ham rigs of its type – the only way to get something tougher is to go to a military rig of some kind. And doing that would lose you the frequency agility the 897 has- to my knowledge, there are no portable milspec radios that cover .5-30mHz/50mHz/VHF/UHF/.
The 897 is not something you’ll outgrow, unless your aspiration is to be a ham radio contest operator, which I assume we don’t GAS about for the purpose of this discussion. It offers all bands and all modes you can legally operate in with an amateur license of any kind, and with a simple modification it also operates ‘other places’ as well. It is a true ‘shack-in-a-box’.
Yes, quality radio equipment is usable for many, many years. I have a friend who uses a Korean War vintage HF radio regularly. If something goes down, there’s hardly anything that can’t be repaired. This is definitely a situation where buying all the right gear to start with will pay dividends later. The base cost for an 897 is in the neighborhood of $850, BUT you need to understand that like buying a carbine, there are other things that you need in order to make it work. Some of those things, in no particular order, are:
Antenna tuner
High-current 12v power supply (23A or more)
Cable and some basic antenna devices (baluns in a few different flavors, etc.)
The bottom line: the cost for a well equipped, ready to roll 897-based system is going to be in the neighborhood of $1500-$1800 depending on which options you choose.
If your neighbor has a flagpole, you can put one up too. This is a time-honored stealth method of operating – google flagpole HF antenna for more details. For even more details, get yourself a copy of Stealth Amateur Radio by Kirk Kleinschmidt. There are a lot of things you can do to get an antenna up without making it obvious – tiny wire being a good place to start. I have an HF antenna up that is approximately 75 feet long, and you can’t see it from the street in front of my house. It’s made of a piece of WD-1 field phone wire, split in half like a zip cord. It’s very small, black, and very strong (WD-1 has steel as well as copper strands in it) so it’s self-supporting. I actually have it going OVER my roof to a tree in my front yard about 25’ off the ground, and it’s so hard to see my wife has never noticed it.
All that being said – you have to get a long piece of wire up somewhere for HF, there’s just no good way around it.

ETA: sorry, I typed that in Word and the formatting didn't take.

[QuietShootr]

This subject is very interesting. I have to admit that I have not factored comms into my preparations. Hell, I'm still on the basics: food, water, guns, medical, fuel, ammo. Being LE I'm guessing that I would be more inclined to bug in than out, but would like to have a place in the deep country to bug out. I guess I would need a base or strong mobile set up with some hand helds on the same frequency. Most of my family/ friends live within 25 mi. I have some outside of that, but doubt that they have the money for any of this. Quiet Shooter: NVIS seems the most applicable for me so far. Can you school me or recommend resources to study?

http://www.athensarc.org/nvis.asp -very detailed. May cause your eyes to cross if you're not that into this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_Vertical_Incidence_Skywave

http://www.athensarc.org/fm2418m.asp

http://www.tactical-link.com/nvis_discussion_page.htm

http://www.qsl.net/wb5ude/nvis/

http://www.vcars.org/tech/NVIS.html

http://www.areslax.org/uploads/File/NVIS.ppt

http://www.ve3fyn.ca/nvis/

[Heavy Metal]

I found a mod at eham that fixes my one complaint with my 2 VX-170's:

Owners of a VX-170, like myself, will experience low mic gain and modulation due to the waterproof membrane over the microphone which attenuates your voice. Often times it's necessary to "eat the mic" to get decent audio gain.

While some suggest disassembly and removing the membrane (which compromises the water resistance) there is another way to resolve this by adjusting the TX deviation in the Service Menu.

I have personally done this and the difference is huge. I am able to speak comfortably at a distance of 5 to 6 inches, whereas before, I had to speak loudly and "eat the mic".

I have confirmed I do not splatter wider than ~15 KHz, it's my understanding that the TX deviation is set to ~2.4 KHz and this adjustment sets it more closely to at/below ~5 KHz.

To do this:

Press and hold the PTT and MONI switches on the side of the VX-170 while turning the radio on. Once on, release PTT and MONI.
Press the [UP (MHz)], then [0 (SET)], then [2 (CODE)], then [2 (CODE)], then [MR (SKIP)].

If successful, the LCD will say SETRST. If not, turn the HT off and try again.

Tune to 146.050 MHz and set the TX power to LOW.

Hit the [F] key, then keep hitting the [MR] key until A03 appears in the top left of the LCD, it's in a small font, not the main display font. Turn the outer dial until the reading is set to DEV.3FH, the first means Deviation, the second is a HEX number that will change when you rotate the knob. Once set to DEV.3FH hit the PTT then the [F] key to save it. Turn off the radio and you're done.


And it works. Why they didn't do that at the factory is beyond me.

[Navigating Collapse]

Does anyone recommend a retailer for kit. Since Grant doesn't deal in Amateur Radio, I figure there's got to be someone out there that's got good CS and is reputable.

[11Bravo]

Does anyone recommend a retailer for kit...snip

I really like www.hamcity.com.
I've placed 3 or 4 orders with them and they were quickly delivered.
On a couple of occassions I've called or e-mailed them.
If you call you get a person and whomever I talked to was helpful and friendly.
E-mails were the same.
And their prices seem just a tad lower than other places on everything I've ordered.
The 3 radios were all $10 less, but hey, ten bucks is ten bucks.
I have pointed members of my ham club to them and have only heard good things from them as well.

[Navigating Collapse]

Thanks for the link.

The more I am looking into this the cooler it gets.

[11Bravo]

Yep.
And costly.

[QuietShootr]

I use AES (www.aesham.com) and R&L Electronics, primarily.

Ask if you have questions before you pull the trigger on something....we can keep you from buying a DPMS or a Tacpoint, you know?



Just an example of what you can do: Tonight, I just talked to a net that reaches from Omaha, NE to south Alabama, and everyone on the net in between (East tennessee, Georgia, and Iowa) was able to communicate clearly with me. Before that, I went out and practiced setting up the field rig, and contacted my friends in northern and southern Indiana with no problems. And no dependence on external infrastructure.

Love it.

[Navigating Collapse]

Costly ain't no joke.

I'm trying to figure out how I can afford a Yaesu FT-950, DMU-2000, an antenna, and any other goodies I may require.

The only thing that chaps my ass is that none of the base units are rack-mountable.

How long is the Technician license valid for? Any good on-line study guides?

[11Bravo]

License term is 10 years and I think they automatically renew; not sure as I've only had mine 2 years.
Actually no cost for the license (except vanity calls), you pay for the test.

I just repeatedly took the practice tests at www.hamtestonline.com until I was comfortable enough that I would pass with no more than one or two wrong.
Think you can miss 9.

Technician Test Tips
Emergency calls ALWAYS have priority
Emergency calls can be made by anyone using any communications technology available
Wavelength in meters equals 300 divided by frequency in Mega-Hertz (l = 300/f)
Voltage is in units of Volts and is measured by a voltmeter
Current is in units of Amperes (Amps) and is measured by an ammeter
Resistance is in units of Ohms and is measured by, you guessed it, an ohmeter
Voltage equals Current (Amps) times Resistance (Ohms) (V = I * R)
I remember it with VAXO: Volts = Amps X Ohms
Power is in unit of watts
Power (Watts) equals Voltage times Current (Amps) (P = V * I)
Milli means 0.001 (one one thousandth)
Kilo means 1,000 Mega means 1,000,000
Micro means one, one-millionth
One meter is 100 centimeters
One meter is about 40 inches
Morse code is referred to as "CW"
US amateur call signs start with A, K, N and W
US amateur call signs contain a single digit between 0 and 9
A quarter-wavelength antenna is one-fourth of the wavelength in size
A half-wavelength antenna is one-half of the wavelength in size
Select answers containing "Part 97"
Select answers containing "Internet"
Select answers containing "Emergency"
Select answers containing "CW" or "CW only"
Select answers containing "United State Postal Service"

[QuietShootr]

This is a good link for testing, it's what I used when I upgraded. http://www.qrz.com/xtest2.html
I just kept taking the tests until I could pass it 8-10 times out of 10. This took me about 30 iterations of the test. Make sure you are incrementing the test number every time you test or you'll be getting the same questions over in the same order.


Licenses are good for 10 years before renewal, and no retest is required.

[QuietShootr]

Anyone who's up, call CQ M4Carbine on 3927....

[QuietShootr]

75 is open, if anyone's around.....

[RWBlue]

QuietShootr, I would like to see some pictures.

I am trying to figure out how to do a man portable radio solution.
I have not convinced my relatives to become hams so I am not sure how this is going to fit into my preps.

[jaholder]

Costly ain't no joke.

I'm trying to figure out how I can afford a Yaesu FT-950, DMU-2000, an antenna, and any other goodies I may require.

The only thing that chaps my ass is that none of the base units are rack-mountable.

How long is the Technician license valid for? Any good on-line study guides?

I saw an NIB Alinco 160-6 HF all mode for $350 OBO at a swap meet. I got a Yaesu FT880 UHF/VHF mobile yesterday for $150 and a Icom TH7 for $100. Deals are out there if you look around.

If you're talking 19" rack mount, the reason is few people want ham rigs that big. Some of the top-of-the-line Ten Tec and Yaesu products might fit your bill, however, if you just gotta have a boatanchor.

Ham licenses are good for 10 years and you can renew online.

[QuietShootr]

QuietShootr, I would like to see some pictures.

I am trying to figure out how to do a man portable radio solution.
I have not convinced my relatives to become hams so I am not sure how this is going to fit into my preps.

I'll take some from an upcoming field day very soon. I think you'll find them informative.

[QuietShootr]

Anyone in the hurricane area have 80m capability?

[tinman44]

I use AES (www.aesham.com) and R&L Electronics, primarily.

Ask if you have questions before you pull the trigger on something....we can keep you from buying a DPMS or a Tacpoint, you know?



Just an example of what you can do: Tonight, I just talked to a net that reaches from Omaha, NE to south Alabama, and everyone on the net in between (East tennessee, Georgia, and Iowa) was able to communicate clearly with me. Before that, I went out and practiced setting up the field rig, and contacted my friends in northern and southern Indiana with no problems. And no dependence on external infrastructure.

Love it.


What region are you in? you dont have to give your address but this post would have greater impact if we knew where it originated.

[QuietShootr]

What region are you in? you dont have to give your address but this post would have greater impact if we knew where it originated.

Central Indiana.

[Abraxas]

I have not checked this thread since I tagged it. Man it has some great stuff in it!

[QuietShootr]

Just added an auto-tuner to my rig. If you decide to get an FT-897D, skip the Yaesu auto-tuner and go for the LDG AT-897 Plus. The FC-30 tuner is about useless, while the AT-897 will just about tune a wet string.

Anyone on the air tonight?

[Shadow_otw]

What is the typical range of a Yaesu hand held?

[Heavy Metal]

Laughs at Snow!!!!!

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs076.snc3/14349_106798002664395_100000025861897_176953_7375983_n.jpg

[11Bravo]

1. Anyone tested lately to get their ham license?
Just wondering if there are any new hams here.

2. Anyone do sat comms?
Thinking on getting one of these with Christmas money-

http://arrowantennas.com/146-437.html

if I can just get over the pre-buyer's remorse.
Would come in handy foxhunting/RDFing also which I've found I kind of like doing.

Greg
WØGRB

[QuietShootr]

Haven't tried satellite yet. I'm still working on getting HF sorted out. I did add HF data to my arsenal - I installed a Signalink USB and started playing with PSK31, Olivia, and MFSK. I worked Cuba and Belgium on 20m using 25w on PSK31 last weekend.

I'm putting together a field data kit using a netbook - you can establish a solid link on Olivia using ridiculously low power.

[QuietShootr]

Update: a data mode called MFSK63 enables full color photos (.jpg, .gif, .bmp, whatever) to be sent over HF with no drama at all. I exchanged photos with a friend 70 miles away using 5 watts this afternoon on the 80 meter band.

I'll try to get some photos of my field setup tomorrow. Sorry for the delay :-)

[11Bravo]

I ordered the antenna and an offset attenuator.
Hope the big brown truck shows up sometime next week and get to try it out.
Have to get my general and try out HF maybe.

Edit: Got the stuff but have been in the middle of a mini-blizzard here so haven't gotten out to try it.

[Ga Shooter]

OK. I tagged this a while back but finally just got around to reading all the pages. Much like Navigating Collapse I am coming into this blind as a baby sewer rat. I will list out what I want/need for my setup if it is possible or you can tell me what I need. Some of my expectations may be unrealistic but here is my list. I live in Savannah, GA, which is on the coast. We are hurricane prone. My bug out location is about 90 miles inland and heavily wooded. I have family that I would want to communicate with in Birmingham, AL and Central, IL as well as the bug out location and home. In case of TEOTWAWKI I would like TC between hand helds up to 30 miles. Would the base unit need to be up and running for the hand units to be operational? Can you tap a hand unit into the base for very long distance ( hand held relayed through base in bug out to communicate to AL?) I am very interested in the 6' pole portable set up but I do not understand at all. Please help. Thanks.

ETA: I also would like to be able to listen to local Police/Military/Aviation/Fire/EMS etc.

[QuietShootr]

OK. I tagged this a while back but finally just got around to reading all the pages. Much like Navigating Collapse I am coming into this blind as a baby sewer rat. I will list out what I want/need for my setup if it is possible or you can tell me what I need. Some of my expectations may be unrealistic but here is my list. I live in Savannah, GA, which is on the coast. We are hurricane prone. My bug out location is about 90 miles inland and heavily wooded. I have family that I would want to communicate with in Birmingham, AL and Central, IL as well as the bug out location and home. In case of TEOTWAWKI I would like TC between hand helds up to 30 miles. Would the base unit need to be up and running for the hand units to be operational? Can you tap a hand unit into the base for very long distance ( hand held relayed through base in bug out to communicate to AL?) I am very interested in the 6' pole portable set up but I do not understand at all. Please help. Thanks.

ETA: I also would like to be able to listen to local Police/Military/Aviation/Fire/EMS etc.


To communicate 90 miles, you will need HF. This will be about $1000-$1500 per location to get something set up that will work with any degree of reliability.

30 miles between HTs ain't gonna happen without a repeater. And you don't want to depend on a repeater maintained by someone else. Setting up a tactical repeater is not going to be a do-able thing for what you're likely to want to spend. Essentially, what you CAN have is tactical comms between HTs (0-2km or so at the outside edge), longer range vehicle-to-vehicle comms (5-10 miles depending on antennas and radio power), medium-range NVIS communications using HF (0-300 miles), and long range HF (>300 miles).

Each one of those steps is more expensive than the last one.

lastly: to listen to police/fire etc... you want a high-end digital capable scanner. This will run you in the neighborhood of $400-500.

Depending on the HF rig you choose, it might be possible to operate it from short distances away from the HT. Like half a mile or so, maybe.

[Ga Shooter]

Thank you for the reply. Please forgive my ignorance but let me see if I understand. If I purchase a Yaesu FT897D along with
Antenna tuner
High-current 12v power supply (23A or more)
Cable and some basic antenna devices (baluns in a few different flavors, etc.)

and VX170's or Vx812's I can expect to be able to talk to people over the US with the base unit and talk between HT's up to a couple of miles. The HT's will communicate with base at same distance. Where does th 6' diapole come into play? What license do I need? You also mentioned a modifiaction to increase frequency range where do I find out about this?

[QuietShootr]

Thank you for the reply. Please forgive my ignorance but let me see if I understand. If I purchase a Yaesu FT897D along with
Antenna tuner
High-current 12v power supply (23A or more)
Cable and some basic antenna devices (baluns in a few different flavors, etc.)

and VX170's or Vx812's I can expect to be able to talk to people over the US with the base unit and talk between HT's up to a couple of miles. The HT's will communicate with base at same distance. Where does th 6' diapole come into play? What license do I need? You also mentioned a modifiaction to increase frequency range where do I find out about this?

Holy shit, ladies and gents - this guy actually READ the thread! Thank you!!

Yes, you're correct on all counts up to your question on the 6' dipole. A 6' dipole is too short for HF. An 80m band dipole, which will be your most useful one at this point in the solar cycle, is approximately 64' on a side. However, depending on which tuner you buy, a single wire is usable. I would recommend an SGC SG-211 or 237 for portable use, and an SG-230 for base/mobile HF operation. These tuners will tune a 8' wire for use all the way down on 80m.

ETA: you need at least a General class ham license to take full advantage of these setups (at least if you're playing by the rules, which don't really apply after TEOTWAWKI.)

for the freeband mods, google mods.dk.

Edited again: if you don't think you'll need the internal battery packs the 897 offers, go for the FT857. Same radio, but in a smaller chassis because it doesn't allow room for internal power supply. Less expensive, too.

[Ga Shooter]

Thanks for the info. It looks like there is only $100.00 diff. in the price and for that I would want the ability to add internal batteries. I have started reading code97 to prepare for the test. I am sure that I will have more questions as I get into this more. It looks like this will be a lot of fun but I am way behind on the learning curve. Do I have to have a Tech license before I get a General license or can I go straight for General? It will take me a couple of months to get up to speed and set up. Please stay tuned for further questions.

[QuietShootr]

Thanks for the info. It looks like there is only $100.00 diff. in the price and for that I would want the ability to add internal batteries. I have started reading code97 to prepare for the test. I am sure that I will have more questions as I get into this more. It looks like this will be a lot of fun but I am way behind on the learning curve. Do I have to have a Tech license before I get a General license or can I go straight for General? It will take me a couple of months to get up to speed and set up. Please stay tuned for further questions.

Well, there's a lot more than $100.00. The battery packs are $130 each, and you need a charger ($70) and a charger adapter ($40) to recharge them. I'm not downing the 897, I have one.

You have to pass all elements to get a General. Some people do it in one sitting - in fact, I saw a kid go from no license to Extra in one test session.

Use the practice tests at qrz.com to get up to speed quickly.

[Ga Shooter]

I was talking about just $100.00 in the price of the unit itself. I can always buy the acces. later to make that part functional right? Or do I have to buy all of it upfront? Thanks for the link. I tried the Technician and passed General not yet. Do you know where I can find a test facility?

[jhurt]

The back pack portable rig sounds fascinating, especially for emergencies. As far as external power source, could you make up a cable with, say, battery clamps on the end and carry that in the pack, then just clip it onto a car battery or tractor, snowmobile, whatever? So long as the voltage/amperage was within the proper spectrum.

[faithmyeyes]

I'm coming late to your post, but I thought I'd add my $0.02.

I live in Savannah, GA, which is on the coast. We are hurricane prone. My bug out location is about 90 miles inland and heavily wooded. I have family that I would want to communicate with in Birmingham, AL and Central, IL as well as the bug out location and home.
You need to know that there is no simple way to do this reliably. An HF radio is capable of the distance, but due to the many factors that affect signal propagation you won't be able to count on one frequency working among all your locations at any given time. An HF communication solution for your scenario won't be "set and forget" unless you have tens of thousands or more to spend on a station. Here's my thoughts on your scenario:


Don't get too narrowly focused on HF radio. You might not have to resort to HF radio if there is some telephone or Internet capability intact, even if it's sporadic. Craft your plan to use the best available option, taking all options into account.


In your worst-case scenario, minimize the the need for long-distance communication. It needs to be OK if you can't get through more than once a day at a pre-arranged time, or better yet, once a week. In that scenario you'll likely have more pressing issues than phoning home anyway.


Have one person in each location become a communications expert. It's that person's job to get a General or Extra class Amateur Radio license, and learn as much as they can about the many ways to communicate in Amateur Radio, then set up and test their ideas pre-disaster. There's no neatly-wrapped foolproof solution for this scenario, so having people who understand comms and radio well enough to improvise, adapt, and repair if necessary will be essential.


Plan on an HF radio in each central location. You might consider the ICOM IC-7000, Yaesu FT-897, Kenwood TS-2000, and a couple others... but you shouldn't need to spend more than $1500 or so per radio. A modern 100 watt transmitter like the ones I mentioned will need a 12V DC power source capable of 20+ amps continuous (when transmitting). Good deep-cycle batteries work fine, just make sure you have a way of charging them off-grid.


You'll need enough antenna feeder (coaxial cable or twin-lead) to get from your radio to your antenna, and you'll need an antenna - possibly more than one. Wire-dipole type antennas are probably your best option for HF, but what works best will depend on the terrain at your location, what you have to hang the antenna(s) on, etc. HF antennas are generally not portable, and the ones that are make a major trade-off in efficiency. There's no way to tell whether a hypothetical set-up will be "good enough" for you without actually trying it, so buy an ARRL Antenna Book for each of your comm experts and set them to work.


Be aware that extremely narrow-bandwidth modes like CW (Morse Code) and data modes like PSK31 can sometimes be effective when a voice signal can't get through. Having the equipment and skills to use those modes gives you more options.



In case of TEOTWAWKI I would like TC between hand helds up to 30 miles. Would the base unit need to be up and running for the hand units to be operational?
Handhelds operate on VHF and UHF frequencies, which require a near-line-of-sight signal path. The only way you'll be able to get 30 miles is to have a repeater in an elevated location or on a tower (how high depends on the terrain). Same-band duplex repeaters like those run by many local amateur radio clubs and those used by public-service agencies are expensive to set up and can be fiddly to maintain. However, cross-band and simplex repeaters are much less expensive, with the trade-off of being more fiddly to use. The differences take some explaining, so I won't go into all of it here.

Keep in mind that everyone who wants to use a system like this needs an appropriate license. For Amateur Radio, a Technician license will suffice for VHF/UHF. You aren't going to be able to do much beyond low-power line-of-sight (a few miles or less depending on equipment and terrain) with any handheld that doesn't require a license.

Can you tap a hand unit into the base for very long distance ( hand held relayed through base in bug out to communicate to AL?)
Yes, it's possible to set up a system that will repeat VHF/UHF signals from a handheld onto an HF frequency. There's different ways of doing it. Check out Kenwood's "Sky Command" for one example.

ETA: I also would like to be able to listen to local Police/Military/Aviation/Fire/EMS etc.
Most modern HF radios and handhelds offer extended receive coverage (they can receive frequencies outside the amateur radio bands). If this is something you want to do a lot of, though, or if your local agencies use digital or trunking systems, you'll probably want a dedicated scanning receiver.

If I can clarify or be of further help, just reply here or shoot me a PM.

cheers
FME