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USBP379
08-22-09, 03:50
Howdy All,

When I joined the border patrol, some of the old salty dogs said that the old magnum buckshot we used to use would kill a coyote at 100 yrds. (They didn't say if it was 2 or 4 legged lol ) I thought that was a bit of a stretch, but let me ask guys that are in states where you HAVE to use buckshot to hunt deer: How far out can you drop deer sized game with a 12gauge shotgun, using shot?

I had my 870 at the range and it seemed that 25 yards was the max effective range, like 6 or 7 out of 8, 12 gauge 00 pellets on target. I plan to dump the LE reduced recoil rounds I have and pattern standard and magnum 00 buckshot rounds and see how they do with the cylinder bore the 870 has. Then , I will take my Benelli M4 out and see how it does with different, smaller, chokes.

Has anybody done this already and can you send me your results to save me some time?

Thanks.

Alaskapopo
08-22-09, 05:00
Howdy All,

When I joined the border patrol, some of the old salty dogs said that the old magnum buckshot we used to use would kill a coyote at 100 yrds. (They didn't say if it was 2 or 4 legged lol ) I thought that was a bit of a stretch, but let me ask guys that are in states where you HAVE to use buckshot to hunt deer: How far out can you drop deer sized game with a 12gauge shotgun, using shot?

I had my 870 at the range and it seemed that 25 yards was the max effective range, like 6 or 7 out of 8, 12 gauge 00 pellets on target. I plan to dump the LE reduced recoil rounds I have and pattern standard and magnum 00 buckshot rounds and see how they do with the cylinder bore the 870 has. Then , I will take my Benelli M4 out and see how it does with different, smaller, chokes.

Has anybody done this already and can you send me your results to save me some time?

Thanks.
You are better off with the reduced recoil tactical loads.
Check out my thread on pattern testing.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=36349

Dan Goodwin
08-22-09, 07:22
Were the old salts talking about the 4 Buck loads the feds used for a long time, along with the military?

We have a circuit court judge, a former SEAL officer w SE Asia tour in Teams, who swears by 4 Buck for everything as a result of his real world experience: seeing a variety of species including humans killed with it.

For game shooting chores and to save a lot of time and money, check out the NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results thread on the Firearms page of predatormasterforums.com.

You now have to become a member to view that forum. Used to be open to public and I read and viewed hundreds of posts and pattern photography a couple months back. Fixing to join myself.

Buckshot is a touchy subject for hunting and fighting.

Had a friend in AF who grew up deerhunting in VA with buck and he said they regularly killed deer out to 100 yards but it often took multiple shots.

I hit a crippled deer with a full power 3-in. 000 load at 15 yards on duty one day. It dropped, with steam issuing from multiple chest cavity holes, then started scrambling away again and I killed it with a shot to the neck with a 9mm.

While issued LR Remington buck and slug for work these days I personally think full power, plated buckshot that spreads rapidly and full power Brennekes are the correct loads to use for LE/combat work in this age of carbines.

I view buckshot as useful for building searches and manhunts in brushy areas, therefore I want it to spread. Others want a palm-sized group beyond 25 yards.

For critters up to coyote, read that thread cited above. Wingmaster HD loads in BB and 2 size are getting favorable mention and a bit less spendy in some areas than HeviShot Dead Coyote loads.

To kill deer use a slug.

Finally, will they let you carry specialty rounds to kill varmints/game with your duty 870? Planning on toting your Benelli with a longer barrel or does your's take screw in choke tubes?

If they don't freak about personal rounds or weapons in the truck (imagine things are a bit more PC since Skeeter Skelton and Charles Askin's era), you might be better with an AR with a low powered scope for a lot of vermin reduction in the SW.

For rattlers, practice a "Select Trap Load" drill!

tpd223
08-22-09, 07:45
The low recoil Federal Flightcontrol OO buck patterns better than anything else I have ever seen, buckshot wise.
It will dump all 9 pellets into a volley ball sized pattern at the 25, and will keep most of the pellets in the circle of an IALEFI-Q target (and normally all on the silhouette) at 50 yards.

Dave James
08-22-09, 16:31
Buckshot like any thing else depends on loads and the choke of your shotgun , use all the time here in the VA area I hunt, now mostly in the 3 1/2 10 ga but basicly the same, in 12ga.

100 yards maybe good hits, and maybe kills, No -4 is crap no matter what some says, I used in the RVN and went to 00 as soon aas I could get my hands on some, same reason PD"S moved away from no-4 buck.

My guns seem to prefer runing improved modified chokes with 00 and I can keep 6 out of a 9 pellet load in side of a 10" dinner at 60 yards in the 12 ga 2 3/4 loads

buy a few different loads and try them in your gun, is the best way to do it.

Remember for hunting your looking for sure kills, war time use all they care about is serious wounding to drag down the other side

DBR
08-22-09, 18:25
Patternmaster chokes work well with buckshot that has a shot cup.

http://patternmaster.com/about-patternmaster-chokes/

Skintop911
08-22-09, 19:32
The low recoil Federal Flightcontrol OO buck patterns better than anything else I have ever seen, buckshot wise.

Agree. The Hornady TAP is equally good in my experience.

Vang-Comped shotguns can do well with most loads at distance, but particularly well with the Federal.

I won't intentionally take a shotgun to a 25yd+ fight, but if I have to, it can work.

Deer hunting with a SG? Slugs, please.

Photo below is a Moss 590, 25yds, Fed 9-pellet 12ga 2-3/4 LE buck, w/ FCW.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/FCW59025YD.jpg

tpd223
08-23-09, 07:33
I agree that #4 isn't a good choice, too low on penetration in my experience.

Dan Goodwin
08-23-09, 07:34
Just read OP (who appears to be BP in San Antonio area) more carefully and he is asking about killing deer-sized game with his duty SG or personal Benelli. Not loads for fighting.

If he's allowed to take a deer/javelina/exotic game while on duty he should use a slug. If he's talking about off duty, he needs to get a flat shooting rifle or keep one in the duty vehicle for that purpose.

What does the BP issue/allow you guys in terms of firearms & ammo these days, BTW?

Judging from recent news, it appears the government frowns upon them shooting people trying to hurt them let alone "Bambi".

P.S. Wish Remington would make a HD load in 4 Buck...

Thomas M-4
08-23-09, 09:18
My Dad killed a deer at 90 yards using 3'' magnum 000 buck many years ago.
Should add he only had 2 pellets hit the deer and was lucky to have found it afterwords.

freakshow10mm
08-23-09, 09:26
Buckshot is legal in MI for deer and bear. I'd limit my shots to 25-30y max with a very dense pattern.

Tokarev
08-23-09, 17:11
Were the old salts talking about the 4 Buck loads the feds used for a long time, along with the military?




Yes. The full-power #4 stuff is what the "old salts" swore by. I talked to several who bemoaned the switch from #4 to 00.

Our current 870 shotguns are 14" barrels with modified choke and will hold a tight pattern out to 35 yards and beyond with Remington reduced recoil 00.

tpd223
08-23-09, 21:48
Shooting at deer with buckshot past 25 yards is a stunt, one that should be avoided.

I know a copper that killed a bad guy at 110 yards with an 870 loaded with OO, but it took him four rounds to get a single pellet on the guy.

BKS
08-23-09, 22:10
I have killed deer with a shotgun with buckshot twice, once with #4 and once with 000 buckshot. The one with #4 was a small deer at about 30 yards, a large amount of the buckshot was found under the skin in the neck area, the one with the 000 was at about 40 yards and was hit with 3 pellets out of 8. All three were complete pass throughs, one in the head and two through the chest.
I would shoot till the animal fell regardless of the buckshot load and would consider 40 yards about maximum with any size.

Dan Goodwin
08-25-09, 16:48
Yes. The full-power #4 stuff is what the "old salts" swore by. I talked to several who bemoaned the switch from #4 to 00.

Our current 870 shotguns are 14" barrels with modified choke and will hold a tight pattern out to 35 yards and beyond with Remington reduced recoil 00.

I know a lot of the terrain along the Rio Grande has thick vegetation and back in the '20s and '30s a nice wide pattern of .24-caliber Blue Whistlers might have been reassuring during the frequent BP firefights.

I'm issued the same SG and load as y'all and would prefer a wider pattern for the things I'm likely to use a shotgun for these days.

If it didn't kick like a mule, the Beretta Xtrema2 with extended tube and loading the 54-pellet 4 Buck 3.5-in. load would be ideal for manhunts in brushy areas. HeviShot 4 Buck or HD 4 Buck would definitely improve penetration.

Alaskapopo
08-25-09, 18:28
The problem with #4 buck is it lacks sufficient penetration to reliably stop threats. Hence its lack of popularity in today's world.
Pat

Dan Goodwin
08-26-09, 22:26
Alaskapopo; I read your stuff and agree with almost all your views. I dig your AO and wish I'd moved there when I got out of college in the '80s. And I are a popo, too.

But we'll have to agree to disagree on 4 Buck. People who regularly kill things other than people swear by it. And people whom I know are the real deal used it to kill fairly small humans in a land far away in the 1960s. Think some BP guys have done well with it a few decades back, too.

This dude is asking about killing deer-sized game in Texas which means relatively scrawny deer in body size.

I also believe if the same shot technology was applied to 4 Buck as has been applied to 00 and 000 we'd see better performance on human critters as well as game.

As it stands now, I keep my personal 870 stoked with WW Supreme 41-pellet 4 Buck for my house and backyard because I believe there is a lot to be said for target saturation. Ten yards is a long shot in my house and I'm pretty sure a fist-sized pattern will usher a bad guy to eternity pretty dang quick.

Stay safe, brother.

Alaskapopo
08-27-09, 01:56
Alaskapopo; I read your stuff and agree with almost all your views. I dig your AO and wish I'd moved there when I got out of college in the '80s. And I are a popo, too.

But we'll have to agree to disagree on 4 Buck. People who regularly kill things other than people swear by it. And people whom I know are the real deal used it to kill fairly small humans in a land far away in the 1960s. Think some BP guys have done well with it a few decades back, too.

This dude is asking about killing deer-sized game in Texas which means relatively scrawny deer in body size.

I also believe if the same shot technology was applied to 4 Buck as has been applied to 00 and 000 we'd see better performance on human critters as well as game.

As it stands now, I keep my personal 870 stoked with WW Supreme 41-pellet 4 Buck for my house and backyard because I believe there is a lot to be said for target saturation. Ten yards is a long shot in my house and I'm pretty sure a fist-sized pattern will usher a bad guy to eternity pretty dang quick.

Stay safe, brother.

No worries its cool to agree to disagree. I have only killed stuff with slugs (bear) and never buck shot so my real experiences is more limited on the subject.
Pat

Dan Goodwin
09-02-09, 21:12
OT, but were the bears you had to shoot on duty and if so, were they cripples that needed euthanizing or problem bears that were getting too nasty?

Brennekes, I presume, and they smashed them?

Only thing I've killed with a Brenneke (KO Sabot)was a big whitetail, hunting, with my tiny Narc shotgun: training and backstraps...can't beat it. Fastest kill with a heart-lung shot in my experience.

BigTime
09-02-09, 21:36
I never shot 00 buck 12ga. over 25yrds,but at 25yrds I know it would do the trick.

SkiDevil
09-03-09, 02:50
For game shooting chores and to save a lot of time and money, check out the NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results thread on the Firearms page of predatormasterforums.com.

Buckshot is a touchy subject for hunting and fighting.

I hit a crippled deer with a full power 3-in. 000 load at 15 yards on duty one day. It dropped, with steam issuing from multiple chest cavity holes, then started scrambling away again and I killed it with a shot to the neck.

For critters up to coyote, read that thread cited above. Wingmaster HD loads in BB and 2 size are getting favorable mention and a bit less spendy in some areas than HeviShot Dead Coyote loads.

To kill deer use a slug.



I would have to agree with Dan on the choke tubes.

I was watching a hunting show a couple of months ago on satillite TV (I think show was called Predator Quest?) and they showed two guys killing crows at 100 and 150 Yards with those choke tubes (bird shot)!

I wouldn't have believed it if I did not see the footage for myself.

The first thing I thought about was whether or not those tubes could extend the range of buckshot. However, one problem that would certainly be a factor is penetration as Pat mentioned.

Now, I am certainly no great white hunter, but I have shot a lot of game with a shotgun. Specifically, A Remington 870 with a 30" Full choke. I took quite a few jackrabbits and coyotes at extended ranges with Remington 3" Magnum Lead BB shotshells (copper plated with buffer). With all of the Steel shot regs. now, I am not even sure if these shells are loaded anylonger (I still have a few left). But, Brother let me tell you hitting a Jack Rabbit at 50-60 yards with that load practically ripped them in two.

I didn't shot any deer with that load or buckshot, but I'm pretty sure it would take one down at short range with no problem.

As for the 00 Buck shot. I took my shotgun (Wilson's 870 Standard Model 18" CYL Bore barrel) to a rifle range with a 200 yard berm and fired-off a couple of boxes of Standard Federal Classic 2 3/4" 00 Buck loads. Although it was by no means scientific, I noted that at 100 yards when firing into a dirt berm there was enough of the pellets to hit a man-size target, but the amount of dispersal would've certainly resulted in misses at that distance. As for 200 yards, the pellets were all over the place.

Although, it is not unfathamable for a few pellet strikes to result in a fatal wound at 100 yards, I (it would seem from my little experiment) wouldn't be willing to bet my life on it or cripple a deer sized animal to find-out.

Again, with shotshell loads penetration is always going to be a major issue because buckshot or any pellets for that matter are basically lead balls with very little to no BC and subject to significant velocity loss. Round .33 caliber sized pellets just seem to lose steam pretty fast past.

Then couple the resultant velocity loss with the inevitable shot spread and it will result in sub-optimal performance.

In conclusion, I would have to agree that 00 or even 000 Buckshot used at 25-30 yards Max. would be a better choice for medium size game and even anti-personnel use if a Shotgun was mandated.

Regards
SkiDevil

P.S. As another member commented on the 12 GA Hornandy TAP 00 Buckshot it does group extremely tight groups in most guns. If I wanted to truly experiment at distance with Buckshot. Then I would acquire this particular load and try it out of a long barreled shotgun with the Pattern Master tubes.

Link: http://www.mackspw.com/Item--i-PAT001S

dcs12345
09-21-09, 15:13
I have seen hogs die at 50 yards from 00 buck, but I wouldn't recommend it for people that are hunting for food. This was just a hog ambush in a crop field and we were trying to kill as many as possible.

WS6
11-19-09, 21:20
When I get a new shotgun, I pattern a lot of different loads through several choke constrictions. So far, the best I have found is Federal's Power Shok OOO 2.75" 8-pellet load.

At 25 yards, all 8 pellets are in about a 12-14" circle, evenly dispersed. At 40 yards, 7/8 were within about 17". At 60 yards, 6/8 were within 23".

This was using a Modified choke. Due to lack of clumping or stringing, I think I can squeeze the shot down even further. I will be experimenting with an IMOD and a FULL choke tomorrow possibly. I am hoping for 6+ pellets in a 14" circle at 50 yards with the FULL. We will see.

I have tried the Kick's Buck-kicker choke-tubes and found that my shotgun did best with Briley flush OEM replacement style tubes.