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Irfan
08-23-09, 16:35
Which one would you rather have in a self-defense situation, SHTF, combat, war...whatever: a pistol capable of being carried cocked & locked (like the 1911, CZ-75, USP..), or a pistol with a decocker (like the M9, P226...)?

woodandsteel
08-23-09, 16:57
Neither. I would rather have a striker fired, safe action pistol.

But that is only because the only formal training that I have had with a pistol, was/is with the Glock. I have been carrying a Glock for the last 15 years.

Irfan
08-23-09, 18:17
I meant condition 2 not 3.

John_Wayne777
08-23-09, 18:58
As you learn more about pistols and examine their use for serious social purposes you'll discover that a well trained user can use practically any pistol well enough to get the job done, and that each type of operating mechanism brings its own particular advantages and disadvantages to the table.

Glocks, for example, are really quick to get into action because there are no safety mechanisms in the way of pulling the trigger. It's easy to make one go bang when you want it to. The downside to a striker fired pistol with no manual safety and a ~ 5.5 pound trigger is that it's easy to make it go bang if you don't want it to. With good training, development of safe handling practices, and sane equipment choices you can minimize the downsides of the platform.

My main carry platform is the M&P...a striker-fired pistol with a ~ 5.5 pound trigger. It's reliable, affordable, fairly easy to support, and I shoot it well. If tomorrow it was mandated that I carry a DA/SA pistol like a Beretta 92, S&W 5906, or Sig P226, I would be just fine with it. If it was mandated that I carry a 1911 I'd be just fine with it. If it was mandated that I'd have to carry a P30 with the LEM system, I'd be just fine with it. While all of those options may not be ideal for me in every way, with the proper dedication to training I can run any of them with a sufficient level of proficiency.

Some individuals may find that some systems are inherently easier to use than others, but for the majority of people proper training and practice will be more important in becoming proficient than the features of X vs. Y.

Telecomtodd
08-23-09, 20:02
For concealed carry, I have a Kimber Ultra Crimson Carry II .45ACP in Condition 3. I don't trust the thumb safety for Condition 1.

What happens if the unthinkable occurs and I'm stripped of my gun? It gives me a few more seconds knowing that the pistol is not in Condition 1, and the bad guy doesn't know it.

I train/practice for CC Condition 3, pulling/racking and then shooting two round volleys (except for Round 7) walking briskly backwards from 5 to 25 feet. All trigger pulls are generally A shots, and all 7 rounds are fired within about 3 seconds. With the grip laser, I don't ever look down the sights.

If I was a LEO, I'd full-time carry my M&P FS9.

Zhurdan
08-23-09, 21:01
TellcomTodd,
3 seconds is an ETERNITY. That being said, if you are more comfortable carrying that way, good on you. Personally, I want my defensive weapon to be as ready as possible with as little action required to get it in the fight. I carry a 1911, cocked and locked. I can't remember now where I saw it, but there's a video about action within 21 feet. It doesn't take a whole lot more than a second and a half to close 21 feet. That's twice as fast as your draw to fire. That's assuming they are using a weapon that requires closing the distance on you (tire iron, knife). If they have a gun, and have any sort of familiarity with it, not to mention the benefit of surprise (if they are engaging you), you are already behind the curve. Now, better marksmanship and training may come to your aide if they miss, but that's a whole lot of "if's".

I'd personally rather have a defensive pistol with nothing more than "assess, draw, aquire, BANG!" if it were me. There's just simply not enough time to work the action, especially if it's an in your face sort of engagment. If they occupy one of your hands, your pistol is nothing more than a blunt object to beat them with.

Wayneard3413
08-23-09, 21:15
Todd,

You also run into the problem of drawing your pistol and making it ready to fire with only one hand... If I already have sustained an injury that takes one of my arms or hands out of the fight or if I am fighting with a suspect I don't want to have an unloaded pistol on my side


As for the original post, I have been issued both Glocks and DA/SA pistols and have found that the Glock is defiantly easier to bring into the fight and get my first shot on target with... That said as noted above if tomorrow I have to transition to another weapon system then I would simply knock out the dry fire drills and range time to get my skill level where it needs to be

thopkins22
08-23-09, 21:19
For concealed carry, I have a Kimber Ultra Crimson Carry II .45ACP in Condition 3. I don't trust the thumb safety for Condition 1.

What happens if the unthinkable occurs and I'm stripped of my gun? It gives me a few more seconds knowing that the pistol is not in Condition 1, and the bad guy doesn't know it.

I train/practice for CC Condition 3, pulling/racking and then shooting two round volleys (except for Round 7) walking briskly backwards from 5 to 25 feet. All trigger pulls are generally A shots, and all 7 rounds are fired within about 3 seconds. With the grip laser, I don't ever look down the sights.

If I was a LEO, I'd full-time carry my M&P FS9.

I'm certainly not a pistol guru, nor a gunfighting guru. But I know a few...and not one thing in this post would fly with them.

If you don't trust your gun to be loaded, perhaps you need to find one that you do trust.

Considering that you carry concealed, the chances of a bad guy getting your gun are slim...until you consider the fact that you're giving him oodles of time to grab it while you sit there and decide to get ready to fight.

Why "two round volleys?" What if it takes one? Or five?

What if you can't walk backwards without falling in a ditch or walking into a wall? What if for whatever reason the footwork in your life or death scenario doesn't exactly match what you're training for?

You don't EVER look down the sights? Really? Wait...really?

wake.joe
08-23-09, 21:30
Deleted

Alpha Sierra
08-23-09, 21:55
For concealed carry, I have a Kimber Ultra Crimson Carry II .45ACP in Condition 3. I don't trust the thumb safety for Condition 1.

What happens if the unthinkable occurs and I'm stripped of my gun? It gives me a few more seconds knowing that the pistol is not in Condition 1, and the bad guy doesn't know it.

I train/practice for CC Condition 3, pulling/racking and then shooting two round volleys (except for Round 7) walking briskly backwards from 5 to 25 feet. All trigger pulls are generally A shots, and all 7 rounds are fired within about 3 seconds. With the grip laser, I don't ever look down the sights.

If I was a LEO, I'd full-time carry my M&P FS9.

This is absurd.

Walking backwards? Whatever will you do when you can only move sideways due to obstacles? Or what would you do if your only way out is to advance on your attacker?

Screwing around with your weapon in close quarters combat IS inviting someone to take it away from you and killing you with it, or them killing you with theirs which is ready to go from the draw.

7 shots in three seconds? Can you score all seven that quickly on a real adversary, as in a force on force drill? My bet is that you cannot.

Alpha Sierra
08-23-09, 21:57
To answer the question, I don't care what my pistol's firing mechanism is. I have, and carry interchangeably, striker fired semi autos, DA/SA semi autos, and double action revolvers. I never have been confused about what to do with any of them.

Of all three I prefer S&W Hand Ejectors.

NCPatrolAR
08-23-09, 22:12
it's foolish to think you'll have the oppertunity to draw and charge your weapon while being assaulted. You need to have the ability to draw your weapon and immediately employ it without having to do any kind "extra" motion; especially if the extra motion involved your other hand.

tpd223
08-23-09, 22:43
I like Glock 9mms and S&W Centennial style revolvers as of late, but I carried a S&W DA/SA gun for many years, a .357mag revolver before that, and I've used Beretta 92s and 1911s as well.
They all work, I just like what I like as it works best for me.

Basically ditto on what John Wayne said above.

Ed L.
08-23-09, 23:34
I agree that if you are not comfortable carrying the gun with a round in the chamber you need to get a different gun.

All you need to do is look at various situations where people were attacked with weapons and without and ask how would it have been to have had to have chamber a round in that situation.

I don't know of anyone who has been in a gunfight who wished they had less time or less ammo.

SteyrAUG
08-24-09, 12:23
As you learn more about pistols and examine their use for serious social purposes you'll discover that a well trained user can use practically any pistol well enough to get the job done, and that each type of operating mechanism brings its own particular advantages and disadvantages to the table.

Glocks, for example, are really quick to get into action because there are no safety mechanisms in the way of pulling the trigger. It's easy to make one go bang when you want it to. The downside to a striker fired pistol with no manual safety and a ~ 5.5 pound trigger is that it's easy to make it go bang if you don't want it to. With good training, development of safe handling practices, and sane equipment choices you can minimize the downsides of the platform.

My main carry platform is the M&P...a striker-fired pistol with a ~ 5.5 pound trigger. It's reliable, affordable, fairly easy to support, and I shoot it well. If tomorrow it was mandated that I carry a DA/SA pistol like a Beretta 92, S&W 5906, or Sig P226, I would be just fine with it. If it was mandated that I carry a 1911 I'd be just fine with it. If it was mandated that I'd have to carry a P30 with the LEM system, I'd be just fine with it. While all of those options may not be ideal for me in every way, with the proper dedication to training I can run any of them with a sufficient level of proficiency.

Some individuals may find that some systems are inherently easier to use than others, but for the majority of people proper training and practice will be more important in becoming proficient than the features of X vs. Y.

+1

I tend to prefer a gun like the SIG 226 because that is what I'm most familiar with.

freakshow10mm
08-24-09, 12:51
I like either a SAO or DAO (spare me with the "safe action" crap, it's a DAO with marketing). I want the same, consistent trigger pull shot to shot. Whether I have to snick off a safety or not, I have no preference really. I just like the up-safe, down fire mechanism and try to stick with that.

Currently I carry a 1911 cocked and locked or a H&K P7 PSP round chambered (squeeze grip, squeeze trigger). Have carried a double action revolver and a Glock (30 with 4.5lb connector) before.

I get a kick out of the guys that hate to carry autos chambered but will carry a revolver with a full cylinder.

Business_Casual
08-24-09, 13:16
I agree, whatever duty-grade handgun is available is fine. I have my preferences and prejudices, as anyone does.

However, one thing I don't consider viable is carrying an unloaded pistol. Too many variables and things to go wrong.

M_P

markm
08-24-09, 13:26
Neither. I would rather have a striker fired, safe action pistol.

End of story. Get over the cocked and locked romance, people! :p

freakshow10mm
08-24-09, 13:27
It's a love affair, get it right people.:D

geminidglocker
08-24-09, 14:14
I carry my Glock with one in the pipe. When it is in the holster there is no chance, short of Devine intervention, of the weapon firing. When it is out of the holster I am aware that pulling the trigger causes the gun to fire.

ThirdWatcher
08-24-09, 15:27
As you learn more about pistols and examine their use for serious social purposes you'll discover that a well trained user can use practically any pistol well enough to get the job done, and that each type of operating mechanism brings its own particular advantages and disadvantages to the table.

I agree. I own Glock and H&K pistols, but my constant companion is a cocked and locked 1911.

Alpha Sierra
08-24-09, 17:41
I get a kick out of the guys that hate to carry autos chambered but will carry a revolver with a full cylinder.
Really. All they do is display their ignorance over how modern handguns work.

xray 99
08-24-09, 22:00
An S&W factory rep told me that some corrections agencies liked the S&W autos with a magazine disconnect. The officer would chamber a round and remove the mag to stymie a prisoner attempting a gun grab. If the gun was needed, all the officer had to do was insert the mag.

When I transported prisoners to the hopsital, etc, the officer handling the inmate was unarmed and the armed officer kept a respectful distance.

lowspeed4u
08-25-09, 11:03
ok, I just have to say it because the orginal post said "Combat"; I would rather not have a pistol and have a rifle maybe my issued M4 with 77 grain OTM, and the pistol in the holster condition 1 w/ decocker on fire because I just don't want to play with it. If I had my way I would carry my glock all the safeties are dis-engaged as I pull the trigger. and I get 17 rounds of 9mm instead of 15 with the M9.

Ok, off my soap box. I would rather have the pistol in Condition 1 you just never know when you might have to grab the guy with one hand and shot 9-10 rounds into his guts. and racking it off his face would just take to much time. and give my plan away from a concealed carry.

ToddG
08-25-09, 18:03
Properly performed, the speed of one's draw -- or more precisely, the speed to the first shot -- should not be affected by the length or weight of the trigger pull. At least, it isn't going to be nearly as big a factor as other fundamental parts of the technique. Folks who are "slower" with DA/SA guns, etc., normally don't do a proper press out as part of the drawstroke.

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/pressout.jpg
(image used completely without permission from byrong.com)

In the above photo, you can see that my finger moves to the trigger as soon as my front sight is on the target. I'm refining my sight picture and pressing the trigger as the gun moves so that at the moment right before I'm at full extension, the hammer is almost all the way back.

What will affect your first shot speed is the condition of your weapon. If you carry your gun without a round in the chamber, you've chosen to disadvantage yourself in a number of ways:

Your draw will be slower (http://pistol-training.com/archives/219). (link to actual timed test)
Your draw will normally need both of your hands to be free.
If you only have one hand free, the speed of your draw will be substantially slower than under the same circumstances but having a chambered round.
If you're in the middle of a wrestling match or otherwise not clear to move your body and arms freely, you may not be able to rack the slide at all (especially if you're doing it one handed).
Racking the slide provides an opportunity for you to induce a malfunction, especially under stress, especially at very close distances, especially one-handed.


Any time your planned response to a surprise life-threatening violent dynamic encounter involves a multi-step process that has to work out "just so" ... it is time to reassess your planned response.

If carrying a gun chamber empty is the only way you're comfortable carrying a gun, I'm not going to tell you to turn in your man card. But you owe it to yourself to learn more about (1) the mechanical operation of your pistol's safety systems and (2) proper shooting & gun handling techniques. Hopefully, with a little time and effort, you'll know why so many people go apeshit when they hear about chamber-empty/"Israeli" carry.

And knowing is half the battle!

averageshooter
08-28-09, 15:14
Not all people have the luxury/choice on how they can carry a firearm.... Some places of employment only let you carry a firearm specific ways. Do I like how I have to carry? ABSOLUTELY NOT. But what choice does one have? I know MP's used to have this issue. Not sure about now though.

Now when I carry away from work? Round chambered and safety off, finger is off the trigger :)

Matt

BT2012
08-28-09, 16:17
Which one would you rather have in a self-defense situation, SHTF, combat, war...whatever: a pistol capable of being carried cocked & locked (like the 1911, CZ-75, USP..), or a pistol with a decocker (like the M9, P226...)?

Irfan,

It does not matter which pistol you choose and how you carry it so long as you are comfortable and trained for it. Every person has different needs, choices or preferences for self-defense, SHTF or whatever situation you happen to be in. I own and shoot Glock, H&K, Sig, S&W and 1911s but I have to practice with all of them so when I do carry any of those, I will remember how each functions. If you decide to carry a pistol without a round in the chamber, then it is imperative your situational awareness have to be at peak to allow yourself time to react to seek cover and chamber a round to be prepared to engage.

Ed L.
08-28-09, 17:22
If you decide to carry a pistol without a round in the chamber, then it is imperative your situational awareness have to be at peak to allow yourself time to react to seek cover and chamber a round to be prepared to engage.

I agree with what you said about situational awareness. But you typically don't have the time or space to get behind cover before chambering a round when dealing with typical street muggings and assaults.

A whole program of instruction has been developed from various people including Kelly McCann to a narcotics officer who teaches under the pseudonym of South Narc to deal with close range attacks with the handgun. It is hard enough to do when you have a gun with a round in the chamber, forget about it unchambered. You are typically shooting from a one-handed close in retention position while the other hand may be striking or tying up the attacker.

Also there is a practical problem with trying to "seek cover to chamber a round to be prepared to engage." In modern American life you must pass withing relatively close distances of a lot of suspicious people in aituations like going to and from your car. You don't have the time, space, or opportunity to duck behind cover and chamber a round every time you spot someone suspicious or are approached by them.

Ed L.
08-28-09, 17:27
There has been a major recognition in the last few years that situation requiring the use of a handgun often occur at very close range where doing something like fully extending your shooting arm may place the gun in a position where it can be grabbed or diverted by your attacker.

Most lethal force encounters that involve carrying a gun occur at contact distance or just beyond it.

Here is a reason why it makes tactical sense to keep a round in the chamber with a news item that documents it. If the woman in the story below did not have a round in the chamber she would be dead because she would not have had the time or opportunity to chamber a round.

http://www.thetimesonline.com/articles/2003/10/09/news/top_news/0a91cc8ee75bfe2086256dba00002243.txt

"Thursday, October 9, 2003 12:07 AM CDT


BY DEBORAH LAVERTY
Times Staff Writer

MERRILLVILLE -- A 28-year-old Gary woman said she knew what it meant Tuesday when she noticed the man holding a gun to her head was wearing gloves.

She figured she was going to die.

"I've called police on him before. He's tried to threaten me and my entire family. ... He was going to kill me," she said. "He's a friend who wanted to be more than a friend, and it's not possible."

But, the outcome of the incident took a turn when the woman pulled out her own 9 mm pistol and shot her abductor in the mouth, police said.

The woman, whom The Times chose not to identify, remained shaken Wednesday afternoon and said she hoped the three-hour ordeal would be the end of seven months of harassment.

The 24-year-old Merrillville man who allegedly abducted her was taken to The Methodist Hospitals Northlake Campus in Gary, Merrillville police Detective Cmdr. Tim Wardrip said. His condition was unavailable Wednesday, and Wardrip said he had not been arrested or charged. The incident remains under investigation.

The identity of a second man, who fled when the shooting took place, is not known at this time, Wardrip said.

The woman said she was sitting in her car about 9 p.m. at CVS Pharmacy, 5301 Broadway, when two men in another vehicle blocked her car from moving.

A security officer came out of the pharmacy, and the men moved their vehicle, she said. But once the security guard went back inside the building, the men allegedly blocked her vehicle again and forced her into their car at gunpoint.

She said they then drove to an isolated wooded area in Gary and parked, with one of the men continuing to point a gun at her head.

While they were still in the car, a man came out of a nearby house and approached the vehicle.

She said while her abductor rolled down the car window and was momentarily distracted, she pulled out a handgun she had on her hip.

"I shot him and took his gun," the woman said.

"I keep my gun on my hip, and I had it where I could ease it. It paid off. I had one in the chamber so I was able to get one round off," she said.

The woman said she started carrying the gun because of the harassment involving her abductor during the past seven months. She said she believes the man was wearing gloves because he intended to kill her and didn't want to leave fingerprints behind.

She said time seemed to be standing still during the incident and she prayed to God to take control of the situation.

After the shooting, she said she grabbed the man's gun and ran to a nearby house in the 4200 block of Tyler Street to call police.

"It wasn't luck. I'm blessed, honestly blessed. It was God's grace. I had an angel with me," she said.

Gary police responded to the 11:55 p.m. call, but the case was turned over to Merrillville police because the abduction took place in Merrillville, Wardrip said."

Alpha Sierra
08-28-09, 17:42
Why would anyone who carries a firearm for self defense as a private citizen do ANYTHING but carry with a fully loaded pistol in its highest state of readiness?

Why should any caveats be even given to suggest that it is even a remotely good idea to carry an unloaded pistol?

It just defies common sense and street sense.

I'll be blunt. If you are not comfortable carrying a certain firearm fully loaded (including one in the chamber) in its highest condition of readiness (cocked & locked, decocked and safety off, etc) the find another firearm that makes you comfortable. If you are not comfortable carrying any firearm that way, then don't carry one at all.

Alpha Sierra
08-28-09, 17:44
There has been a major recognition in the last few years that situation requiring the use of a handgun often occur at very close range where doing something like fully extending your shooting arm may place the gun in a position where it can be grabbed or diverted by your attacker.

Most lethal force encounters that involve carrying a gun occur at contact distance or just beyond it.

Here is a reason why it makes tactical sense to keep a round in the chamber with a news item that documents it. If the woman in the story below did not have a round in the chamber she would be dead because she would not have had the time or opportunity to chamber a round.

http://www.thetimesonline.com/articles/2003/10/09/news/top_news/0a91cc8ee75bfe2086256dba00002243.txt

"Thursday, October 9, 2003 12:07 AM CDT


BY DEBORAH LAVERTY
Times Staff Writer

MERRILLVILLE -- A 28-year-old Gary woman said she knew what it meant Tuesday when she noticed the man holding a gun to her head was wearing gloves.

She figured she was going to die.

"I've called police on him before. He's tried to threaten me and my entire family. ... He was going to kill me," she said. "He's a friend who wanted to be more than a friend, and it's not possible."

But, the outcome of the incident took a turn when the woman pulled out her own 9 mm pistol and shot her abductor in the mouth, police said.

The woman, whom The Times chose not to identify, remained shaken Wednesday afternoon and said she hoped the three-hour ordeal would be the end of seven months of harassment.

The 24-year-old Merrillville man who allegedly abducted her was taken to The Methodist Hospitals Northlake Campus in Gary, Merrillville police Detective Cmdr. Tim Wardrip said. His condition was unavailable Wednesday, and Wardrip said he had not been arrested or charged. The incident remains under investigation.

The identity of a second man, who fled when the shooting took place, is not known at this time, Wardrip said.

The woman said she was sitting in her car about 9 p.m. at CVS Pharmacy, 5301 Broadway, when two men in another vehicle blocked her car from moving.

A security officer came out of the pharmacy, and the men moved their vehicle, she said. But once the security guard went back inside the building, the men allegedly blocked her vehicle again and forced her into their car at gunpoint.

She said they then drove to an isolated wooded area in Gary and parked, with one of the men continuing to point a gun at her head.

While they were still in the car, a man came out of a nearby house and approached the vehicle.

She said while her abductor rolled down the car window and was momentarily distracted, she pulled out a handgun she had on her hip.

"I shot him and took his gun," the woman said.

"I keep my gun on my hip, and I had it where I could ease it. It paid off. I had one in the chamber so I was able to get one round off," she said.

The woman said she started carrying the gun because of the harassment involving her abductor during the past seven months. She said she believes the man was wearing gloves because he intended to kill her and didn't want to leave fingerprints behind.

She said time seemed to be standing still during the incident and she prayed to God to take control of the situation.

After the shooting, she said she grabbed the man's gun and ran to a nearby house in the 4200 block of Tyler Street to call police.

"It wasn't luck. I'm blessed, honestly blessed. It was God's grace. I had an angel with me," she said.

Gary police responded to the 11:55 p.m. call, but the case was turned over to Merrillville police because the abduction took place in Merrillville, Wardrip said."

She failed a major test of situational awareness and agressiveness. The second time she was blocked in by the same car was the time to draw down and go to work as soon as someone showed up at her door.

She is lucky she was given a second opening later on. Most victims don't get that chance.

In fact, the more I think about it, the FIRST time she got blocked in was the time to go on the offensive. Maybe not necessarily by opening fire on the two dudes right away, but certainly forcing their hand.

DacoRoman
08-28-09, 17:55
As the story above affirms, if one needs a gun for self defense, especially in a concealed carry scenario, it is likely that such need will be critical and very time sensitive.

The following example is not really a concealed carry scenario example per se, but again demonstrates that a gun needs to be immediately ready to employ if one is to successfully use it for self defense.

Check out this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkWgp2abM2w) of Lance Thomas, a modern gunfighter.

Ed L.
08-28-09, 17:58
She failed a major test of situational awareness and agressiveness. The second time she was blocked in by the same car was the time to draw down and go to work as soon as someone showed up at her door.

She is lucky she was given a second opening later on. Most victims don't get that chance.

In fact, the more I think about it, the FIRST time she got blocked in was the time to go on the offensive. Maybe not necessarily by opening fire on the two dudes right away, but certainly forcing their hand.

I agree. The point is that there are many situations where you will not have the time, distance, or opportunity to chamber a round. Here are some others that I can quote.

In her situation she found herself at gunpoint and chose to wait until an opportune time to draw when she was not at gunpoint and the person was distracted. It might not have worked as well for her if they searched her or tied her up or somehow noticed the gun before trying to transport her to the second crime scene.

averageshooter
08-28-09, 18:02
She failed a major test of situational awareness and agressiveness. The second time she was blocked in by the same car was the time to draw down and go to work as soon as someone showed up at her door.

She is lucky she was given a second opening later on. Most victims don't get that chance.

In fact, the more I think about it, the FIRST time she got blocked in was the time to go on the offensive. Maybe not necessarily by opening fire on the two dudes right away, but certainly forcing their hand.

This is exactly why I discuss things with my wife on what to look for/being aware of your surroundings. Case in point. She left the hospital yesterday while 2 men were sitting by the door, inside. As she walked past them the got up and followed her into the parking lot. She noticed this, looked at them, saw a co worker an isle away and walked over to him to continue walking towards the car. Of course I told her to get with this individual or another any time she leaves the hospital. She is becoming more and more aware every day.

BT2012
08-28-09, 20:19
I agree with what you said about situational awareness. But you typically don't have the time or space to get behind cover before chambering a round when dealing with typical street muggings and assaults.

Also there is a practical problem with trying to "seek cover to chamber a round to be prepared to engage." In modern American life you must pass withing relatively close distances of a lot of suspicious people in aituations like going to and from your car. You don't have the time, space, or opportunity to duck behind cover and chamber a round every time you spot someone suspicious or are approached by them.

Ed,

I agree there are some situations where you may not have the time such as during the night when perp(s) may be lurking or hiding under the cover of darkness. Most of the time, you should be aware of your surrounding and you should trust your natural gut instincts rather than ignore it. You have a false sense of security carrying a loaded firearm and this is when you are at your most vulnerable state if you ignore your gut instincts. If you sense something is wrong then you must start reacting, IF especially you opt not to chamber a firearm. I agree if you do carry a firearm then it should be chambered and ready to go and not waste precious seconds loading it as events start to unfold. I've read a few books written by a gentleman named Gavin DeBecker. He does threat assessments for the government, law enforcement and private sector. The books he has written talks a lot about your natural gut instincts and learning to trust it rather than ignoring and blowing it off. If you can combine situational awareness with natural gut instincts, you would put yourself in an advantage to engage the perp(s).

Ed L.
08-28-09, 21:45
Ed,

I agree there are some situations where you may not have the time such as during the night when perp(s) may be lurking or hiding under the cover of darkness.

It's not just those situations. It is virtually all situations on the street when you are carrying a gun.

Are you going to stop and duck behind cover every time you have to cross paths with a suspicious person? What about suspicious people you don't spot who are suspicious by their actions rather than their looks and only begin acting suspicious when they are relatively close--like a stranger in the parking lot who was previously just walking and is now approaching you trying to ask you questions and get closer to you, feel you out, and possibly distract you. Do you duck behind cover and chamber a round every time this happens? Do you even have the time, space or opportunity to do so? By the time it is time to draw your gun you may be needing to draw it to shoot someone.


Most of the time, you should be aware of your surrounding and you should trust your natural gut instincts rather than ignore it.

This holds true for whether you have a gun loaded with a round in the chamber, a gun without a round in the chamber, or don't have a gun on you. Learning to spot potential trouble signs and possible assailants is a universally important skill.


You have a false sense of security carrying a loaded firearm and this is when you are at your most vulnerable state if you ignore your gut instincts. If you sense something is wrong then you must start reacting, IF especially you opt not to chamber a firearm.

First, I am not sure if by saying "you" you are referring to me personally, some of the readers, or people in general. If you are referring to me personally, I would remind you that you don't know me and have no idea who I am, what my life experience is, or what my training is. If you are referring to the readers of this board, I should point out that many of the posters here are better trained and more aware than average gun message board people. If you are talking about *some* people in general, then you definitely have a point.


I agree if you do carry a firearm then it should be chambered and ready to go and not waste precious seconds loading it as events start to unfold.

Exactly. And it is not always possible to chamber a round as events start to unfold.


I've read a few books written by a gentleman named Gavin DeBecker. He does threat assessments for the government, law enforcement and private sector. The books he has written talks a lot about your natural gut instincts and learning to trust it rather than ignoring and blowing it off. If you can combine situational awareness with natural gut instincts, you would put yourself in an advantage to engage the perp(s).

Debecker's work can be boiled down for the most part to trust your instinct. He is also anti-gun, as in one of his books he wrote about being in favor of victims being able to sue gunmakers for damage inflicted by firearms.

A better, more applicable source, IMHO, is Kelly McCann, because he includes self defense responses--both empty hand and with weapons--in his training program. I've trained with him on several occasions.

Below is an article that goes into some of the principles he espouses as well as covering his unarmed training:

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/140

Below is a link to a book that he recently released. Though it concentrates on unarmed, a lot of what it covers applies to armed or unarmed self defense.

http://www.amazon.com/Combatives-Street-Survival-Countermeasures-Situations/dp/0897501764/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251509258&sr=8-1

Here is a link to an older book that he wrote under the pseudonym of Jim Grover that also includes information about recognizing set-ups and spotting trouble before it happens as well as running a handgun:
http://www.amazon.com/Street-Smarts-Firearms-Personal-Security/dp/1581600674/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251522908&sr=1-1

He has a chapter on situational awareness, pre-incident indicators and attack recognition skills. He goes over various types of suspicious activities that often precede an attack. Things like someone hanging out who seemingly has no reason to be there, correlation of movement (like the gentleman upthread described with the two men who followed his wife out of the hospital, hidden hands, suspicious approaches, etc.

skyugo
08-29-09, 02:19
i have no desire for a pistol with an external safety...

glocked and loaded here. :D

skyugo
08-29-09, 02:26
She failed a major test of situational awareness and agressiveness. The second time she was blocked in by the same car was the time to draw down and go to work as soon as someone showed up at her door.

She is lucky she was given a second opening later on. Most victims don't get that chance.

In fact, the more I think about it, the FIRST time she got blocked in was the time to go on the offensive. Maybe not necessarily by opening fire on the two dudes right away, but certainly forcing their hand.

yeah she had a lot of other chances to open fire on those guys.... hmm. maybe she didn't want to kill the guy...
things do get complicated when you know the person.

tpd223
08-29-09, 07:57
She would have had a hard time explaining why she shot that guy when he first blocked her in the parking lot.

I'd sure like to hear more about that story. I doubt she just sat there and got blocked in twice with nothing else happening.

Alpha Sierra
08-29-09, 08:19
She would have had a hard time explaining why she shot that guy when he first blocked her in the parking lot.
Not that hard to explain once she found out it was the same harasser that led her to get a license to carry in the first place.

And notice I didn't say shoot them to the ground when they first show up. Just force their hand by letting them know you know who they are and that you will respond in kind. They either step it up, in which case you already expect it, or they beat it.

tpd223
08-29-09, 08:29
In my experience, stalker cases often have the guy setting up situations where, if it goes bad for them, they can claim the chick was crazy. If she pulls a gun in a he said/she said situation she could end up in jail for agg. assault, or brandishing, or whatever laws that state has for such crimes.

Conjecture on what the correct tactics were for the situation, on the strength of a newspaper article, is pointless. We do not have enough info, and we have no idea what the lady's training and background are.
In the end, she did good, and handled herself well.

Just to stay on subject;

I see no reason at all to carry condition 3 with a modern handgun. "Cruiser safe" for long guns has been around for a long time, but we break out the big guns when we have notice that things are going bad. Handguns are for unscheduled emergencies.

Ed L.
08-29-09, 15:19
I see no reason at all to carry condition 3 with a modern handgun. "Cruiser safe" for long guns has been around for a long time, but we break out the big guns when we have notice that things are going bad. Handguns are for unscheduled emergencies.

Another issue is that pump action shotguns like the Remington 870 only have a trigger safety IIRC, and do not have a safety that prevents it from firing if it is jarred. Also, if you have time to get the shotgun from the car, you have time to jack a round into the chamber because your firing grip on the forend is the same grip you use to pump a round into the chamber. You are not having to draw a shotgun from concealment and engage an immediate close range threat in a situation where you might be limited to one hand.

How many police agencies in the US mandate that their officers carry a handgun without a round in the chamber?

Alpha Sierra
08-29-09, 20:31
How many police agencies in the US mandate that their officers carry a handgun without a round in the chamber?

This guy's department

http://www.dba-oracle.com/images/barney_fife.jpg

Sorry. Had to insert some humor.

condition 1
08-29-09, 21:14
Don't drag me into this fight, :)

SWATcop556
08-31-09, 04:29
I'll add a personal story to the mix to illustrate why I see no valid reason to not have a round in the chamber.

Very early in my LEO career I responded to a domestic disturbance call (all shit hits the fan LEO stories start out this way). The male was locked in his bedroom and the female was outside. My partner and I had evaluated the female, who had been assaulted, and determined that we were going to arrest the male.

We tried to call him out of the bedroom with no luck. We then (in hindsight stupidly) decided to breach the door. I was the first to gain entry and entered the room. The male had been leaning against the door and was now behind it as I entered and crossed the room giving me as much distane between us as possible. He was now leaning against the door again, preventing my partner from entering, as it took both of us to open the door....and he was a big SOB. I entered with my weapon drawn.

As I turned towards the male I saw he was holding a kitchen knife that would have given Michael Myers serious wood. He saw my pistol and immediately threw the knife at my head before I could really register what was occurring. I was able to side-step, but I was now facing an unarmed individual and was not justified in shooting.

As my partner is still trying to push the male away from the door I holstered my weapon since he was no longer armed and transitioned to my taser. In the brief time I was empty handed the male grabbed a paint roller rod (from where is still a mystery to me) minus the roller and just the hard metal threaded knob and aggressively advanced on me.

My mind was going "Oh ****" as I started to draw my pistol, which I should have never holstered to begin with. I was now having to defend myself from a paint roller rod (now turned deadly weapon) with one arm and draw my pistol with the other (see the problem here).

My partner finally breached his way threw the door and grabbed shitbag before I was able to fire, but not before I had sustained a decent ass-whooping.

A couple of things to be remembered (as I never mind teaching from my mistakes) and this can be applied to concealed carry as well as LEO work:

1.) Carrying without being able to IMMEDIATELY fire the weapon is exponentially stupid. I had always trained to shoot with two hands at that point as I was younger and not as well trained in off-hand and one-handed pistol fighting as I am now. My first "I'm going to have to shoot this big bastard" moment was at bad breath distance, one-handed, and all done while he is using my cranium as a drum head. No time or opprotunity what-so-ever to charge the weapon. I would have been screwed with a capital "F."

2.) DO NOT take yourself out of the fight until the fight is over. I relaxed as soon as there was no weapon involved (to my ill-informed knowledge).

3.) Don't let your ego make you a better shooter/gunfighter/bad ass than you really are. Presenting your weapon, charging it, firing nice controlled pairs while walking backwards drinking a martini (I jest :D) is all well and good. Now try it while someone is striking you in the dome with an object and speaking ill of your mother. Not going to happen.

I'm not sure if that helps but I feel better about adding something to a conversation at 0330. :cool:

Failure2Stop
08-31-09, 06:34
When it comes to putting the gun back into the holster following a stressful event, I really like having a decocked external hammer to prevent cranking bullets into myself.

Regardless of how many dudes you schwack, the only thing anyone will talk about is the time you shot yourself in the foot/leg/testicles.

Telecomtodd
08-31-09, 08:10
Sorry, not trying to Monday Morning Quarterback, but just an observation - as a LEO, you had ample warning of the situation. Could you have gone to C1 upon exiting the patrol car?

As a civilian concealed carry permit holder, it probably would have been a different situation. In the neighborhood where I grew up, I'd probably go C1 all the time for my own safety. I would have had situational awareness that I was not in a location that was relatively safe, I did not necessarily have an appropriate escape strategy, and if in the likely possibility of being attacked, would have to be in a position to pull fast and start shooting immediately. No second guesses by LEOs or the predeceased perp's family's attorney.

Where I live now, no way would I go C1. I'd have time to react to the situation and have several reasonable escape strategies at hand. An attorney or LEO would be asking why I was in C1 - was I planning to shoot someone?? Lots of legal questions.

Here's a (civilian) solution offered by a friend of mine. He has a crappy old Taurus 9mm revolver. However, it is very small, very concealable, DA only and thus in C1 at all times, and holds 5 rounds of Gold Dots. Depending on the situation, it may be a better pick than my 3" 1911. My dad's pick of a S&W 642 is the same situation, but I wouldn't pick .38SP, maybe .357.

Telecomtodd
08-31-09, 08:16
Regardless of how many dudes you schwack, the only thing anyone will talk about is the time you shot yourself in the foot/leg/testicles.

Years ago, the father of a boyhood friend of mine was at a civilian range in Upstate NY in the late 80s and needed to take a dump. The well-known idiot left his 1911 cocked with one in the barrel. Without a retaining strap, he pulls down his pants and looks down in time to see his pistol fall towards the floor between his legs - how, I'm not sure, but it did. Fearing for his manhood, he apparently covered his crotch with both hands - and that was lucky, since when the ND happened, it took the tip of his left pinky off. True story, it was in the local papers, but that was BI (before Internet). If someone tried to verify, his first name is Julius...we all had a good laugh at his expense!

Telecomtodd
08-31-09, 08:18
3.) Don't let your ego make you a better shooter/gunfighter/bad ass than you really are. Presenting your weapon, charging it, firing nice controlled pairs while walking backwards drinking a martini (I jest :D) is all well and good. Now try it while someone is striking you in the dome with an object and speaking ill of your mother. Not going to happen.

Can I buy you one sometime? ;)

CaptainDooley
08-31-09, 08:58
Where I live now, no way would I go C1. I'd have time to react to the situation and have several reasonable escape strategies at hand. An attorney or LEO would be asking why I was in C1 - was I planning to shoot someone?? Lots of legal questions.


How can you possibly know that everywhere you go in life, no matter what the situation that it will afford you such luxuries? Answer: You don't, and if you think you do, you're deluding yourself.

Secondly, I have seen exactly ZERO legal precedent that a prosecutor or investigator has attempted to crucify someone over condition 1 carry - it's not gonna happen because it is the expected and accepted method of carry when carrying a defensive weapon.

NCPatrolAR
08-31-09, 09:49
Sorry, not trying to Monday Morning Quarterback, but just an observation - as a LEO, you had ample warning of the situation. Could you have gone to C1 upon exiting the patrol car?

As a civilian concealed carry permit holder, it probably would have been a different situation. In the neighborhood where I grew up, I'd probably go C1 all the time for my own safety. I would have had situational awareness that I was not in a location that was relatively safe, I did not necessarily have an appropriate escape strategy, and if in the likely possibility of being attacked, would have to be in a position to pull fast and start shooting immediately. No second guesses by LEOs or the predeceased perp's family's attorney.

Where I live now, no way would I go C1. I'd have time to react to the situation and have several reasonable escape strategies at hand. An attorney or LEO would be asking why I was in C1 - was I planning to shoot someone?? Lots of legal questions.

Here's a (civilian) solution offered by a friend of mine. He has a crappy old Taurus 9mm revolver. However, it is very small, very concealable, DA only and thus in C1 at all times, and holds 5 rounds of Gold Dots. Depending on the situation, it may be a better pick than my 3" 1911. My dad's pick of a S&W 642 is the same situation, but I wouldn't pick .38SP, maybe .357.

What? How could packing a revolver be considered less dangerous than carrying a gun in condition 1? From the LE perspective; we view those carrying a firearm for self-protection in anything other than condition 1 as less than bright.

Alpha Sierra
08-31-09, 11:17
telecomtodd,

You are, of course, welcome to carry any firearm in any way you like so long as that method does not present a danger to others.

But please, PLEASE, stop insulting our intelligence by trying to justify that carrying a self-defense handgun in anything less than condition one is smart, justifiable, necessary, or wise.

Alpha Sierra
08-31-09, 11:20
Years ago, the father of a boyhood friend of mine was at a civilian range in Upstate NY in the late 80s and needed to take a dump. The well-known idiot left his 1911 cocked with one in the barrel. Without a retaining strap, he pulls down his pants and looks down in time to see his pistol fall towards the floor between his legs - how, I'm not sure, but it did. Fearing for his manhood, he apparently covered his crotch with both hands - and that was lucky, since when the ND happened, it took the tip of his left pinky off. True story, it was in the local papers, but that was BI (before Internet). If someone tried to verify, his first name is Julius...we all had a good laugh at his expense!
So your friend's dad is walking around with a cocked M1911, with the safety off, and an unoperational grip safety.

DacoRoman
08-31-09, 12:23
I'll add a personal story to the mix to illustrate why I see no valid reason to not have a round in the chamber.

Very early in my LEO career I responded to a domestic disturbance call (all shit hits the fan LEO stories start out this way). The male was locked in his bedroom and the female was outside. My partner and I had evaluated the female, who had been assaulted, and determined that we were going to arrest the male.

We tried to call him out of the bedroom with no luck. We then (in hindsight stupidly) decided to breach the door. I was the first to gain entry and entered the room. The male had been leaning against the door and was now behind it as I entered and crossed the room giving me as much distane between us as possible. He was now leaning against the door again, preventing my partner from entering, as it took both of us to open the door....and he was a big SOB. I entered with my weapon drawn.

As I turned towards the male I saw he was holding a kitchen knife that would have given Michael Myers serious wood. He saw my pistol and immediately threw the knife at my head before I could really register what was occurring. I was able to side-step, but I was now facing an unarmed individual and was not justified in shooting.

As my partner is still trying to push the male away from the door I holstered my weapon since he was no longer armed and transitioned to my taser. In the brief time I was empty handed the male grabbed a paint roller rod (from where is still a mystery to me) minus the roller and just the hard metal threaded knob and aggressively advanced on me.

My mind was going "Oh ****" as I started to draw my pistol, which I should have never holstered to begin with. I was now having to defend myself from a paint roller rod (now turned deadly weapon) with one arm and draw my pistol with the other (see the problem here).

My partner finally breached his way threw the door and grabbed shitbag before I was able to fire, but not before I had sustained a decent ass-whooping.

A couple of things to be remembered (as I never mind teaching from my mistakes) and this can be applied to concealed carry as well as LEO work:

1.) Carrying without being able to IMMEDIATELY fire the weapon is exponentially stupid. I had always trained to shoot with two hands at that point as I was younger and not as well trained in off-hand and one-handed pistol fighting as I am now. My first "I'm going to have to shoot this big bastard" moment was at bad breath distance, one-handed, and all done while he is using my cranium as a drum head. No time or opprotunity what-so-ever to charge the weapon. I would have been screwed with a capital "F."

2.) DO NOT take yourself out of the fight until the fight is over. I relaxed as soon as there was no weapon involved (to my ill-informed knowledge).

3.) Don't let your ego make you a better shooter/gunfighter/bad ass than you really are. Presenting your weapon, charging it, firing nice controlled pairs while walking backwards drinking a martini (I jest :D) is all well and good. Now try it while someone is striking you in the dome with an object and speaking ill of your mother. Not going to happen.

I'm not sure if that helps but I feel better about adding something to a conversation at 0330. :cool:


Thanks for sharing this story, I really enjoyed reading it. It is always educational to read stories from those that have seen the lion, especially when the lion decides to go at you with a paint roller.

I find it really astonishing that people that choose to carry on an empty chamber have such confidence in being able to control the circumstances of their being attacked. Despite what one may think of as an impeccable ability to be vigilant, I think the prudent person plans for the contingency of being ambushed. Part of this plan includes having your weapon ready to use immediately if needed.

DacoRoman
08-31-09, 12:30
Where I live now, no way would I go C1. I'd have time to react to the situation and have several reasonable escape strategies at hand.

But if you knew you had time to react and already knew your escape routes, why even be there to begin with ;)


An attorney or LEO would be asking why I was in C1 - was I planning to shoot someone?? Lots of legal questions

Well why are you carrying a gun in the first place? Are you planning to shoot someone?

Or is there an "intent to shoot someone" continuum beginning with having no gun, to having gun but with no bullets, to having gun with bullets but not loaded into the gun, to having gun with bullets but not chambered, to the ultimate indication of intent: having a gun with bullets one of which is chambered?

And I forgot to add that my intent for having a loaded and chambered weapon is to defend my life, or my family's life, if an individual attacks with deadly force, and to enable that defense to begin immediately, when appropriate.

dookie1481
08-31-09, 13:18
I'd have time to react to the situation and have several reasonable escape strategies at hand.

Apparently you're willing to bet your life on a bold and foolish assumption.

Jay

ETA: "The fight will not be the way you want it to be. The fight will be the way it is. You must be flexible enough to adapt." -- Unknown

daddyusmaximus
08-31-09, 13:38
I love a good 1911 A-1 in condition1. Like others stated, TRAINING... it's what I learned with in basic.

I started looking at stuff like a USP, a Glock... I liked them, but not enough to switch. Hey, the good old 1911 just has a natural feel in your hand. Then came the Springfield Armory's XD. The grip was angled like my old .45, but I didn't want to give up the power of the .45ACP, and the other alternatives had to fat a grip for me.

Then the XD in .45ACP. Just so happens, I had read a story in a gun rag by Ayoob about "liability" right about the same time. He explained how on several occasions, he had to testify to protect the "intended victim" from becoming the "convicted criminal".

That caught my eye.

With internal safeties, a striker fired gun does not require you to take the weapon off safe. You point and shoot, like a double action revolver. (provided you have one in the chamber) The XD has a grip safety, like my old 1911, and a very similar grip feel, plus indicators showing when cocked and loaded chamber that you can test by feel silently in the dark. Oh yeah, a 13 + 1 capacity!

XD for me.

LIABILITY, something to consider. I may one day end up in front of a jury trying to explain why I had to put down a criminal AKA "unserviced target". If so, I will not have to face a prosecutor/late dirtbag's family lawyer saying that I consciously took the weapon off safe, and pulled the trigger, thereby demonstrating my intent to kill. Way too many lawyers in the world for me; and too many libtards likely to be on jury duty as well.

I have a Lasermax and a Streamlight on my XD. This past winter, I heard a window break downstairs, and 2 different voices. The wife got on 911, I went to patrol/engage. I had cleaned it (the XD) that day 'cause I was at the range. I didn't have a round in the chamber when I felt the top of the slide. My thumb on the indicator at the rear confirmed it, not ready to fire, at home, with (at least) 2 invaders, its 0330hrs, and the kids are still asleep. "Crap!" Just before I descended the stairs, I chambered a round, and turned on the light and laser. I hear "****!" and some scrambling. All I saw was 1 blue jeaned leg slide back out the window. Town marshal never found anyone, county K-9 lost the track 2 blocks down, by the school. (Must of had a car waiting)

I wasn't ready, because my weapon wasn't ready. The thugs heard me rack that slide back. That sound, if testified to in court, could have been the same as me taking it off safe to a lawyer. I got lucky the bad guys beet feet. Really got me thinking about the whole "Gun safety at home v liability thing". The kids KNOW not to touch my guns without me there. They also know how to safely handle them if they do. My oldest boy, is getting pretty good with his 16" Bushy carbine, (in his room, with one mag).

Anyhow... If you don't like the XD, any internal safety striker fired auto or double action revolver is the way to go these days. You can protect your family, and your freedom.

LIABILITY, things that make you go Hmm.

Ed L.
08-31-09, 13:49
As a civilian concealed carry permit holder, it probably would have been a different situation.

If anything, Law Enforcement people have more warning than a citizen since they are often responding to calls and going to a situation. With citizens, it generally unfolds quickly out of your everyday life .


In the neighborhood where I grew up, I'd probably go C1 all the time for my own safety. I would have had situational awareness that I was not in a location that was relatively safe, I did not necessarily have an appropriate escape strategy, and if in the likely possibility of being attacked, would have to be in a position to pull fast and start shooting immediately. No second guesses by LEOs or the predeceased perp's family's attorney.

So you you have the psychic ability to predict trouble before it happens. If that is the case you really don't need to carry a firearms since you can get out of there or avoid it in advance.

Or perhaps you now live in a place where the criminals are so stupid that they will announce their intentions in advance and then stand there while you draw your gun and rack a round into the chamber.

Bottom line is you cannot make an appointment for an emergency.


Where I live now, no way would I go C1. I'd have time to react to the situation and have several reasonable escape strategies at hand. An attorney or LEO would be asking why I was in C1 - was I planning to shoot someone?? Lots of legal questions.

Using that logic they would ask why were you carrying a gun? Were you planning to shoot someone? Therefore, using your logic, you are screwed if carrying a gun in the first place.

I always get a chuckle out of these wierd justifications for grossly inferior weaponry and tactics based on it supposedly looking better in court.


Here's a (civilian) solution offered by a friend of mine. He has a crappy old Taurus 9mm revolver. However, it is very small, very concealable, DA only and thus in C1 at all times, and holds 5 rounds of Gold Dots. Depending on the situation, it may be a better pick than my 3" 1911. My dad's pick of a S&W 642 is the same situation, but I wouldn't pick .38SP, maybe .357.

That's actually close to a solution. If you are not comfortable carrying your gun with a round in the chamber you should get one that you are comfortable carrying.

NCPatrolAR
08-31-09, 13:54
I love a good 1911 A-1 in condition1. Like others stated, TRAINING... it's what I learned with in basic.

I started looking at stuff like a USP, a Glock... I liked them, but not enough to switch. Hey, the good old 1911 just has a natural feel in your hand. Then came the Springfield Armory's XD. The grip was angled like my old .45, but I didn't want to give up the power of the .45ACP, and the other alternatives had to fat a grip for me.

Then the XD in .45ACP. Just so happens, I had read a story in a gun rag by Ayoob about "liability" right about the same time. He explained how on several occasions, he had to testify to protect the "intended victim" from becoming the "convicted criminal".

That caught my eye.

With internal safeties, a striker fired gun does not require you to take the weapon off safe. You point and shoot, like a double action revolver. (provided you have one in the chamber) The XD has a grip safety, like my old 1911, and a very similar grip feel, plus indicators showing when cocked and loaded chamber that you can test by feel silently in the dark. Oh yeah, a 13 + 1 capacity!

XD for me.

LIABILITY, something to consider. I may one day end up in front of a jury trying to explain why I had to put down a criminal AKA "unserviced target". If so, I will not have to face a prosecutor/late dirtbag's family lawyer saying that I consciously took the weapon off safe, and pulled the trigger, thereby demonstrating my intent to kill. Way too many lawyers in the world for me; and too many libtards likely to be on jury duty as well.

I have a Lasermax and a Streamlight on my XD. This past winter, I heard a window break downstairs, and 2 different voices. The wife got on 911, I went to patrol/engage. I had cleaned it (the XD) that day 'cause I was at the range. I didn't have a round in the chamber when I felt the top of the slide. My thumb on the indicator at the rear confirmed it, not ready to fire, at home, with (at least) 2 invaders, its 0330hrs, and the kids are still asleep. "Crap!" Just before I descended the stairs, I chambered a round, and turned on the light and laser. I hear "****!" and some scrambling. All I saw was 1 blue jeaned leg slide back out the window. Town marshal never found anyone, county K-9 lost the track 2 blocks down, by the school. (Must of had a car waiting)

I wasn't ready, because my weapon wasn't ready. The thugs heard me rack that slide back. That sound, if testified to in court, could have been the same as me taking it off safe to a lawyer. I got lucky the bad guys beet feet. Really got me thinking about the whole "Gun safety at home v liability thing". The kids KNOW not to touch my guns without me there. They also know how to safely handle them if they do. My oldest boy, is getting pretty good with his 16" Bushy carbine, (in his room, with one mag).

Anyhow... If you don't like the XD, any internal safety striker fired auto or double action revolver is the way to go these days. You can protect your family, and your freedom.

LIABILITY, things that make you go Hmm.

IME, you are making too much of an issue over disengaging a safety

decodeddiesel
08-31-09, 14:26
I love a good 1911 A-1 in condition1. Like others stated, TRAINING... it's what I learned with in basic.

I started looking at stuff like a USP, a Glock... I liked them, but not enough to switch. Hey, the good old 1911 just has a natural feel in your hand. Then came the Springfield Armory's XD. The grip was angled like my old .45, but I didn't want to give up the power of the .45ACP, and the other alternatives had to fat a grip for me.

Then the XD in .45ACP. Just so happens, I had read a story in a gun rag by Ayoob about "liability" right about the same time. He explained how on several occasions, he had to testify to protect the "intended victim" from becoming the "convicted criminal".

That caught my eye.

With internal safeties, a striker fired gun does not require you to take the weapon off safe. You point and shoot, like a double action revolver. (provided you have one in the chamber) The XD has a grip safety, like my old 1911, and a very similar grip feel, plus indicators showing when cocked and loaded chamber that you can test by feel silently in the dark. Oh yeah, a 13 + 1 capacity!

XD for me.

LIABILITY, something to consider. I may one day end up in front of a jury trying to explain why I had to put down a criminal AKA "unserviced target". If so, I will not have to face a prosecutor/late dirtbag's family lawyer saying that I consciously took the weapon off safe, and pulled the trigger, thereby demonstrating my intent to kill. Way too many lawyers in the world for me; and too many libtards likely to be on jury duty as well.

I have a Lasermax and a Streamlight on my XD. This past winter, I heard a window break downstairs, and 2 different voices. The wife got on 911, I went to patrol/engage. I had cleaned it (the XD) that day 'cause I was at the range. I didn't have a round in the chamber when I felt the top of the slide. My thumb on the indicator at the rear confirmed it, not ready to fire, at home, with (at least) 2 invaders, its 0330hrs, and the kids are still asleep. "Crap!" Just before I descended the stairs, I chambered a round, and turned on the light and laser. I hear "****!" and some scrambling. All I saw was 1 blue jeaned leg slide back out the window. Town marshal never found anyone, county K-9 lost the track 2 blocks down, by the school. (Must of had a car waiting)

I wasn't ready, because my weapon wasn't ready. The thugs heard me rack that slide back. That sound, if testified to in court, could have been the same as me taking it off safe to a lawyer. I got lucky the bad guys beet feet. Really got me thinking about the whole "Gun safety at home v liability thing". The kids KNOW not to touch my guns without me there. They also know how to safely handle them if they do. My oldest boy, is getting pretty good with his 16" Bushy carbine, (in his room, with one mag).

Anyhow... If you don't like the XD, any internal safety striker fired auto or double action revolver is the way to go these days. You can protect your family, and your freedom.

LIABILITY, things that make you go Hmm.

:confused:

OK so you like XDs...got it...but you're saying you could face liability in a legal court setting because you disengaged a safety? Um no.

This thread is really full of some whoppers and really piss poor arguements/self justifications for bad decisions and choices.

When I carry the weapon is in condition 1, period. You introduce so many additional variables to potential **** up when you add in the additional step of charging the weapon in a self defense situation.

I for one want everything to be as simple as possible: sweep away concealing garment, draw weapon, meet support hand, disengage safety (if it has one) push out taking up the slack of the trigger, and break the shot, repeat step 6 until threat is neutralized. That's all I want to have to do if I am in a no shit shoot or be shot situation.

Telecomtodd
08-31-09, 14:29
So your friend's dad is walking around with a cocked M1911, with the safety off, and an unoperational grip safety.

Yes, he did.

geminidglocker
08-31-09, 14:31
This thread is probably going to last forever, and I wish it was a "Poll" instead of a long drawn out thread because most of us agree, a pistol is useless if not "Ready" Can someone just change this thread into a "Poll"????:confused:

sjohnny
08-31-09, 15:06
LIABILITY, something to consider. I may one day end up in front of a jury trying to explain why I had to put down a criminal AKA "unserviced target". If so, I will not have to face a prosecutor/late dirtbag's family lawyer saying that I consciously took the weapon off safe, and pulled the trigger, thereby demonstrating my intent to kill.
...
The thugs heard me rack that slide back. That sound, if testified to in court, could have been the same as me taking it off safe to a lawyer.


Seriously?..... Really?

ETA: Sometimes I think people just sit around dreaming up more shit about which to worry.

Ed L.
08-31-09, 17:50
Seriously?..... Really?

ETA: Sometimes I think people just sit around dreaming up more shit about which to worry.

Exactly. I don't know of anyone who has been in a gunfight who wished that they had either less time or less ammo.

tpd223
08-31-09, 19:08
"that I consciously took the weapon off safe, and pulled the trigger, thereby demonstrating my intent to kill."



If you ever have to fire at a bad guy I certainly hope it is consciously and with intent. Doing so unconsciously and without intent would be an accident, which can not be justified.

Seriously dude, get some training, you are way off base, in your legal assumptions, your idea that you will have time to rack a slide, or that doing so will impress a bad guy.

Alpha Sierra
08-31-09, 19:23
Yes, he did.

So, in other words, your justification for not carrying cocked and locked is because some dumbass carrying a single action pistol with the safety OFF shot himself in the balls?

Good Lord, help this boy......:rolleyes:

Alpha Sierra
08-31-09, 19:25
I love a good 1911 A-1 in condition1. Like others stated, TRAINING... it's what I learned with in basic.

I started looking at stuff like a USP, a Glock... I liked them, but not enough to switch. Hey, the good old 1911 just has a natural feel in your hand. Then came the Springfield Armory's XD. The grip was angled like my old .45, but I didn't want to give up the power of the .45ACP, and the other alternatives had to fat a grip for me.

Then the XD in .45ACP. Just so happens, I had read a story in a gun rag by Ayoob about "liability" right about the same time. He explained how on several occasions, he had to testify to protect the "intended victim" from becoming the "convicted criminal".

That caught my eye.

With internal safeties, a striker fired gun does not require you to take the weapon off safe. You point and shoot, like a double action revolver. (provided you have one in the chamber) The XD has a grip safety, like my old 1911, and a very similar grip feel, plus indicators showing when cocked and loaded chamber that you can test by feel silently in the dark. Oh yeah, a 13 + 1 capacity!

XD for me.

LIABILITY, something to consider. I may one day end up in front of a jury trying to explain why I had to put down a criminal AKA "unserviced target". If so, I will not have to face a prosecutor/late dirtbag's family lawyer saying that I consciously took the weapon off safe, and pulled the trigger, thereby demonstrating my intent to kill. Way too many lawyers in the world for me; and too many libtards likely to be on jury duty as well.

I have a Lasermax and a Streamlight on my XD. This past winter, I heard a window break downstairs, and 2 different voices. The wife got on 911, I went to patrol/engage. I had cleaned it (the XD) that day 'cause I was at the range. I didn't have a round in the chamber when I felt the top of the slide. My thumb on the indicator at the rear confirmed it, not ready to fire, at home, with (at least) 2 invaders, its 0330hrs, and the kids are still asleep. "Crap!" Just before I descended the stairs, I chambered a round, and turned on the light and laser. I hear "****!" and some scrambling. All I saw was 1 blue jeaned leg slide back out the window. Town marshal never found anyone, county K-9 lost the track 2 blocks down, by the school. (Must of had a car waiting)

I wasn't ready, because my weapon wasn't ready. The thugs heard me rack that slide back. That sound, if testified to in court, could have been the same as me taking it off safe to a lawyer. I got lucky the bad guys beet feet. Really got me thinking about the whole "Gun safety at home v liability thing". The kids KNOW not to touch my guns without me there. They also know how to safely handle them if they do. My oldest boy, is getting pretty good with his 16" Bushy carbine, (in his room, with one mag).

Anyhow... If you don't like the XD, any internal safety striker fired auto or double action revolver is the way to go these days. You can protect your family, and your freedom.

LIABILITY, things that make you go Hmm.

I nominate this for the dumbest post in the history of M4C.

CaptainDooley
08-31-09, 19:31
I nominate this for the dumbest post in the history of M4C.

Definitely in the top 5...

Daddyus - You only let your son fire through one magazine at a time in his room while training? You think taking the safety off will get you crucified by a jury? How the hell else were you supposed to shoot the scumbag? How is it any different than not taking the safety off on a weapon that has one?? BULLETS IN A BODY are what will bring attention from lawyers and cops. If it's a clean, justified shoot you'll go free, if it wasn't, you won't (at least in theory). If your defense attorney can't beat a retarded ass argument about you taking a safety off, you hired the wrong attorney.

John_Wayne777
08-31-09, 19:48
Then the XD in .45ACP. Just so happens, I had read a story in a gun rag by Ayoob about "liability" right about the same time. He explained how on several occasions, he had to testify to protect the "intended victim" from becoming the "convicted criminal".

That caught my eye.

With internal safeties, a striker fired gun does not require you to take the weapon off safe. You point and shoot, like a double action revolver. (provided you have one in the chamber) The XD has a grip safety, like my old 1911, and a very similar grip feel, plus indicators showing when cocked and loaded chamber that you can test by feel silently in the dark. Oh yeah, a 13 + 1 capacity!

LIABILITY, something to consider. I may one day end up in front of a jury trying to explain why I had to put down a criminal AKA "unserviced target". If so, I will not have to face a prosecutor/late dirtbag's family lawyer saying that I consciously took the weapon off safe, and pulled the trigger, thereby demonstrating my intent to kill. Way too many lawyers in the world for me; and too many libtards likely to be on jury duty as well.


If Ayoob seriously said that people shouldn't use a weapon with a manual safety because taking the safety off turns a good shoot into murder, then you shouldn't be paying any attention to what Ayoob says.

Ever.

Under that understanding of "intent", loading the weapon, picking up the weapon, pointing the weapon, and pulling the trigger all demonstrate "intent" and would turn a good shoot into murder....so I guess you're supposed to stand there and get killed.

Justified use of lethal force is about the circumstances surrounding the decision to pull the trigger.

tpd223
08-31-09, 20:46
There is no way Mas said or implied that. He regularly carries a 1911, and is a big time advocate of carrying pistols with safeties for the weapon retention aspect.

Gentoo
09-01-09, 06:23
There are alot of people going full retard in this thread :confused:

SGT D USMC
09-03-09, 03:22
I have owned 1911's sence the early 60's and I'm too old of a dog to learn new tricks. I have a few rules of my own. first any weapon that may be used for self defense should be chambered. through the years I have had failures to feed when I chambered the first round. Next once you determine to shoot have as few decessions as posible to make between the decession and the shot. For me that would rule out a lazer sight. And it would certainly rule out a mental law review.

he went into younder village and never returned

zushwa
09-03-09, 03:49
Exactly. I don't know of anyone who has been in a gunfight who wished that they had either less time or less ammo.

Off topic, but are you the same Ed L. that made a trip to Fayetteville with Craig??

If so, some of you might want to pay extra attention to his posts on these topics. He just might have a little experience and know some shit, even if he doesn't spell well the first time he posts. :D

Give me a call sometime. I'm hanging out with some old friends of yours until mid month but I'd like to run a couple things past you.

Back on topic. No round in the chamber?? Litigation? Really?

Later,

Submariner
09-03-09, 04:00
End of story. Get over the cocked and locked romance, people! :p

"We need to get over the romance of carrying a WWI era pistol, and get on to the business of shooting smelly bad guys in the face with a modern handgun." markm

SGT D USMC
09-03-09, 04:19
Submariner, Are those Lance corporal chevrons in your Logo? If so I can forgive you for the remark you made about Mr Brownings yet to be surpassed 1911. If you don't agree , don't even try to confuse me with facts.

he went into younder village and never returned

RogerinTPA
09-03-09, 05:30
End of story. Get over the cocked and locked romance, people! :p

Agreed. Stop limiting/programming yourself for only X brand. Think as trying to be a small arms expert. Learn to be more versatile and step into the 21st century.

Alpha Sierra
09-03-09, 07:10
Learn to be more versatile and step into the 21st century.

Uh oh.....I sit here with a S&W handgun hanging off my belt whose design is directly traceable to 1896. :D

emt370
09-03-09, 09:39
Whenever I read these threads and they ultimately lead to the mention of "liability", I remember why I carry off-duty. The reason is personal protection and protection of family and friends and maybe the occasional civilian if the situation presented itself. The absolute last thing that I will think about is liability on my part if I am justified in the shoot. Having been through a few incidents at work, I am very familiar with the procedure after something like this happens. As long as you follow the letter of the law, you are good. I have never once heard of someone being attacked for how their weapon functioned, be it striker-fired, revolver, cocked and locked, etc. It was 1)"were you in immediate danger or risk of death or serious bodily injury?" If yes, proceed to 2) "were the actions taken justified and within reason?" If yes, you're good. If no to either point, then you need to worry about the "liability".

You need to act quickly and only after you are justified. Anything that results after that legally is part of the game, but I think that if one had to say that you had to draw, point, disengage the safety, pull the trigger, you obviously had a clear thought process and were obviously doing more than just pulling a gun and spraying. The clearer your actions and thoughts and observations, the better off you are.

The reality: you see a gun pointed at you or a knife coming at you, you are going to draw your weapon and pull the trigger. That should be all that you care about, not what is carried on your hip. If I had to sit and think about "liability", I probably would not be sitting here typing this.

Ed L.
09-03-09, 10:56
Off topic, but are you the same Ed L. that made a trip to Fayetteville with Craig??

If so, some of you might want to pay extra attention to his posts on these topics. He just might have a little experience and know some shit, even if he doesn't spell well the first time he posts. :D

Nope. Not me.

The only Craig I know, which is probably a different Craig, would never advocate carrying a handgun without a round in a chamber for defensive purposes. I doubt it is the same Craig, and for some reason I suspect that your Craig would know better as well.

Ed L.
09-03-09, 11:26
Back on topic. No round in the chamber?? Litigation? Really?

Later,

Exactly. I've just coined a new term for people who throw liability around in inappropriate ways.

Gunstore liability lawyers.

Distantly related to gunstore commandos but at the other end of the silliness spectrum.

They can often be found on message boards that have a relatively high number of topics locked for silliness.

These are the people who suggest that if you follow certain practices or employ weapons or ammo that is legal in your locale and legally owned by you--standard weapons, ammo, or equipment used by Law Enforcement all over the US--you will somehow be convicted of some nonexistant law. I have seen them at various times suggest that using anything other than a double barrel shotgun or birdshot is evidence of pre-meditated murder.

When asked to point to a justified shooting where someone was convicted because of this, they draw a blank.

If a prosecutor was foolish enough to raise the point that you had a round in the chamber of the gun you used, it would be simple to point out that this is the standard mode of carry for Law Enforcement Officers throughout the US, and thus you were doing nothing different than they did.

ToddG
09-03-09, 11:43
If a bunch of lawyers with no gun handling experience came on here and started telling people how to shoot, they'd get shouted down at warp speed. But when a bunch of gun guys with no legal training "teach" students about criminal exposure (a.k.a. "liability") issues related to self-defense, it makes more sense?

If the gear you used or the manner in which you were carrying it before a threat appeared has an impact on the decision of your guilt or innocence, you either (a) have the worst lawyer in the known universe or (b) were involved in an already questionable shooting. Most self-defense cases are very clear cut. An obviously justifiable use of lethal force doesn't get become manslaughter just because you were carrying DeathShok bullets or because you had a +2 magazine extension on your pistol.

Can you make things harder on yourself (read: more money paying your lawyer to handle more issues) by walking around town with a suppressed G18 rather than a j-frame? Yes. Will things drag on if you are known to walk around wearing a t-shirt that says "I can't wait to kill a minority!" if you shoot a minority during a mugging? Yes. Will any of these things matter in the end if the evidence clearly indicates you were justified in using lethal force at the moment you pulled the trigger? No.

(I am not your lawyer and this is not legal advice)

BT2012
09-10-09, 17:50
First, I am not sure if by saying "you" you are referring to me personally, some of the readers, or people in general. If you are referring to me personally, I would remind you that you don't know me and have no idea who I am, what my life experience is, or what my training is. If you are referring to the readers of this board, I should point out that many of the posters here are better trained and more aware than average gun message board people. If you are talking about *some* people in general, then you definitely have a point.

Ed,

Sorry I didn't get back to you on this sooner. When I sad "You" it wasn't directed at you but just people in general. I've put two and two together have a fairly good idea on your background and I respect that. This was not meant to offend you or any members on this forum. Yes, most members on this forum are more aware because we seek out information and come across this forum for information to learn or offer their experience and there are new members who may have limited knowledge and seek information here. There is the average person who acquire a firearm for whatever their reason(s) and who do not seek training to enhance their firearm skill. These are the people who have this false sense of security because they have CCW.