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View Full Version : Accuracy vs. reputation - my CCW quandary



FF750
08-26-09, 02:44
I've got a dilemma right now. After getting my Jericho 941 on a whim I find ironically that I shoot significantly better with it than any other gun I've tried.

I'm currently carrying an XDm .40 but had ordered an M&P40 to replace it, which has yet to arrive. I decided to switch because of the M&Ps great reputation, DAO action, and optional thumb safety. I don't shoot any better with either the 9mm or .40 M&Ps I've tried though versus other pistols.

Now I'm wondering if I should consider a CZ or CZ-clone instead. I don't really think I could go with another Jericho because I don't like the slide-mounted safety but maybe a CZ P07 would do.

Of course, I can't be certain that I can shoot as well with a P07 as with my Jericho until I can try one but if for the sake of argument that was the case, which then would be the better choice - an M&P that I can shoot okay but has a great reputation for reliability or a CZ that I can shoot great but doesn't have as good a reputation though still an okay one?

87GN
08-26-09, 03:25
Just pick one, buy a crapload of ammo for it and shoot with it exclusively...

I personally would pick the M&P from that bunch...

JohnN
08-26-09, 08:24
I've had two CZ's and broke slide stops in both in less than 5000rds in either gun. Not my idea of durability especially as a CCW. Stick with a Glock or M&P they have proved to be durable in either caliber.

Business_Casual
08-26-09, 08:49
Have you considered spending money on training instead of a pile of second-rate pistols?

M_P

RogerinTPA
08-26-09, 09:02
I agree with MP. It's a training issue. It will be money well spent and saved taking a basic, then an advance pistol course, instead of throwing a bunch of rounds down range and re-enforcing bad habits that will get you no where. You will be building 'muscle memory" in the wrong direction without training. You may also want to check out the training forum and check out the various pistol drills posted there.

87GN
08-26-09, 10:14
I agree with MP. It's a training issue. It will be money well spent and saved taking a basic, then an advance pistol course, instead of throwing a bunch of rounds down range and re-enforcing bad habits that will get you no where. You will be building 'muscle memory" in the wrong direction without training. You may also want to check out the training forum and check out the various pistol drills posted there.

That's what I meant...just forgot to mention it.... :(

ra2bach
08-26-09, 13:36
Have you considered spending money on training instead of a pile of second-rate pistols?

M_P

nyuk...

:D

vel525
08-26-09, 17:22
I own a MP9 full size, MP9c, and a CZ P-01. I love all three and have had no issues with any of them. I usually carry the CZ because I shoot marginally better with it and I just prefer the feel of it in my hands. I think the MP is a great gun and has a great reputation and would not hesitate in carrying it. Like others have said, for a carry gun I would just pick one (one that feels good though), get training, and practice.

Now, on the other hand, if you want to buy more guns cause you like to try different guns and owning different guns, I totally understand. :D

variablebinary
08-26-09, 17:32
From the guns mentioned, I'd get the M&P and call it day. Then focus on range time and training.

FF750
08-26-09, 20:39
Regardless of which gun I ultimately choose I definitely would spend a lot of time training. I'm at the range 4-6 times a month as it stands since I know I still have to improve and have every intention of attending more advanced training once I have the dosh and time for it.

The main question I have though for this thread can be distilled into a simple question I guess: How much weight should be given to how a gun shoots for you in the decision on a carry piece?

Business_Casual
08-26-09, 22:50
It is pretty simple, in my opinion.

1) Take a decision to carry concealed and if necessary use it
2) Pick a duty-grade pistol (M&P, Glock, old SIG, Beretta, H&K)
3) Seek training with tier 1 operators who have experience in the subject matter
4) Practice
5) Keep training

It isn't the pistola - good shooters not platform specific. Will their split times be faster with platform A vs. platform B? Perhaps, but when you do not strike me as having reached the level where that is applicable.

M_P

rrpederson
08-26-09, 23:06
respectfully, i agree with the last guy. the fundamentals of marksmanship do not rest with the weapon. speaking from 20 years of shooting experience, pick a high quality weapon. unfortunately, cz and baby eagle line of guns are just not duty grade weapons. choose a weapon that is carried by a police department or military. one that is comfortable and one that u can easily work the controls. then. as stated before buy as many rounds as u can afford, and shoot. shoot as much as u can. ask around for different types of techniques u can try. the point is, just shoot.

John_Wayne777
08-27-09, 08:26
The main question I have though for this thread can be distilled into a simple question I guess: How much weight should be given to how a gun shoots for you in the decision on a carry piece?

That depends on where your skill level is. I'm a mediocre shooter at best. I could spend from now until doomsday buying a new handgun every week and I will still be a mediocre shooter. While some weapons may hinder my performance and some may be slightly easier to shoot, with the best fit from a handgun that I can find I'll still be mediocre.

If I want to improve it will involve spending more time, money, and effort on training with a decent platform.

I've gone through the buy a million guns looking for the "right" one phase, and it sucked. It would have been much cheaper to set out some basic criteria for a concealed carry gun, buy one that fit my requirements, and then dedicate all my time and attention (and money) to training and practice. (Heavy emphasis on TRAINING first)

Find a gun that meets your needs. If your needs are a general purpose handgun that can serve as a concealed carry piece and a home defense gun, etc, there are some good options on the market. M&P's are my personal choice for those functions, but 9mm Glocks and the really neat new H&K P30 work well in those roles too. Look at those options including spare magazines, carry gear, etc and find out what fits your requirements and budget the best.

Then make the purchase and train, train, train. Get into some good handgun training (Larry Vickers' basic handgun courses are phenomenal) and then practice what you've learned. If you do that you'll be better off than 90% of the people who are carrying handguns right now.

vel525
08-27-09, 09:04
respectfully, i agree with the last guy. the fundamentals of marksmanship do not rest with the weapon. speaking from 20 years of shooting experience, pick a high quality weapon. unfortunately, cz and baby eagle line of guns are just not duty grade weapons. choose a weapon that is carried by a police department or military. one that is comfortable and one that u can easily work the controls. then. as stated before buy as many rounds as u can afford, and shoot. shoot as much as u can. ask around for different types of techniques u can try. the point is, just shoot.

new hear, so still learning. why is cz not considered a duty grade weapon? understand it is not used by any US LEO or military, but wasn't the P01 extensively tested and NATO approved? i also thought some military in Europe carried the P01.

again, not trying to start a semantics war or anything, just wondering why cz (i guess in this case, specifically the P01) would not be considered duty grade.

vaglocker
08-27-09, 09:22
CZ IS duty grade, but are unfortunatley the Rodney Dangerfield of the American gun community.

Business_Casual
08-27-09, 09:41
new hear, so still learning. why is cz not considered a duty grade weapon? understand it is not used by any US LEO or military, but wasn't the P01 extensively tested and NATO approved? i also thought some military in Europe carried the P01.

It has to do with market share, really. All pistols break and have their problems but certain ones have massive support systems behind them that reach all the way down to the local hardware store in the boondocks that has Glock magazines on the shelf or Beretta springs in the back room.

It is already hard enough to find parts and magazines for guns, why make it harder by picking one that doesn't have a well-developed distribution channel? And before you answer that you can buy everything online, think how long that will last after they ban import of that particular model or if you spent thousands of $$ to go to Front Sight and need your recoil spring replaced - not going to arrive before the class ends, is it? There are months of inventory in the M&P aftermarket channel, how many months of inventory is there for CZ P01 trigger springs? Does anyone other than CZ make parts for them? What about holsters, mag pouches and grip tape? Do you have the money to acquire spares at reasonable prices or will you try to stretch parts replacement another month while you pay off the credit card?

It really has little to do with being "better" (outside of the testing that FBI or DHS, DoD, etc. has done) and more to do with utility.

Stop spending 99% of your time wondering about grip angles and safety placement.

As JW777 noted, most shooters are terrible and try to convince themselves it is the gun and not them. I did that dance, wasted that money; and I'm suggesting you can avoid it.

M_P

vaglocker
08-27-09, 10:00
certain ones have massive support systems behind them that reach all the way down to the local hardware store in the boondocks that has Glock magazines on the shelf or Beretta springs in the back room.
M_P

While I agree that Glock has a larger (American) market share (and I am a member of that market), the only place I can get Glock magazines locally is at a gun store which is also likely to have CZ 75 mags. As far as springs etc.. for my Glock I would still need to send away for them. So at least in my area the Glock and CZ are about equal support wise.

Business_Casual
08-27-09, 12:46
While I agree that Glock has a larger (American) market share (and I am a member of that market), the only place I can get Glock magazines locally is at a gun store which is also likely to have CZ 75 mags. As far as springs etc.. for my Glock I would still need to send away for them. So at least in my area the Glock and CZ are about equal support wise.

Awesome, you've convinced me with your sample size of one. I will ignore the millions of Glocks, Berettas and Smith and Wessons in the country. I was a fool to try to save that guy the headaches and wasted money of chasing the perfect pistol.

M_P

JSantoro
08-27-09, 14:35
Have you considered spending money on training instead of a pile of second-rate pistols?

That's beautiful, man. *single tear*

vaglocker
08-27-09, 16:33
Awesome, you've convinced me with your sample size of one. I will ignore the millions of Glocks, Berettas and Smith and Wessons in the country. I was a fool to try to save that guy the headaches and wasted money of chasing the perfect pistol.
M_P

:confused: I'm not sure what you think I was trying to convince you of other than the fact that I'm not aware of a " local hardware store" in my area that stocks Glock magazines and parts; therefore the "lack of support" argument doesn't hold much water. Now, if you were arguing which was more expensive to support I would definately say the CZ.

The OP said he shoots the CZ style weapons better. With durability being about equal (IMO) between his choices why not choose a CZ?

Business_Casual
08-27-09, 16:57
Is this an example of arguing with people on the Internet? I give up.

M_P

Alpha Sierra
08-27-09, 18:06
Is this an example of arguing with people on the Internet? I give up.

M_P

You could never be wrong, or have the only valid point of view?

I don't think so.

averageshooter
08-28-09, 18:00
My opinion is all that matters....

Shoot what you like as long as it is a quality weapon. Get as much ammo as you can and attend as many training courses as you can (quality courses). Other than that have fun with your endeavor.

Speaking of that I need mags and more ammo :)

nwcatman
08-29-09, 17:44
because of the opinions i read on this forum last week i decided to let my 1911 commander 70 series have a rest and bought a M & P .40. have only shot around 200 rds so far but love it. my smart ass son said " with ur dixie chopper and ur new pistol ur the envy of the neighborhood". i had about 30 old reject reloads that i were from a batch i loaded for the kids and it even ran those great. any aftermarket "gotta haves" for it? still considering what kinda holster for CCW to get.

Alpha Sierra
08-29-09, 19:23
any aftermarket "gotta haves" for it? still
None, except some night sights.

averageshooter
08-29-09, 19:44
The crimson trace grips for it are very nice.

Charles Daly
09-01-09, 00:46
Look for a new model Jericho 941 this winter with a frame mounted safety/decocker.

FF750
09-01-09, 16:03
Look for a new model Jericho 941 this winter with a frame mounted safety/decocker.

Ooh, awesome! That decides it, I'll train with the M&P now and get one of these later on as well :D

SkiDevil
09-01-09, 17:07
I've got a dilemma right now. After getting my Jericho 941 on a whim I find ironically that I shoot significantly better with it than any other gun I've tried.

I'm currently carrying an XDm .40 but had ordered an M&P40 to replace it, which has yet to arrive. I decided to switch because of the M&Ps great reputation, DAO action, and optional thumb safety. I don't shoot any better with either the 9mm or .40 M&Ps I've tried though versus other pistols.

Now I'm wondering if I should consider a CZ or CZ-clone instead. I don't really think I could go with another Jericho because I don't like the slide-mounted safety but maybe a CZ P07 would do.

Of course, I can't be certain that I can shoot as well with a P07 as with my Jericho until I can try one but if for the sake of argument that was the case, which then would be the better choice - an M&P that I can shoot okay but has a great reputation for reliability or a CZ that I can shoot great but doesn't have as good a reputation though still an okay one?


When it comes to the selection of a gun, many of us buy what is appealing to our eye or what feels good (ergonomically) in the hand/ grip style. Only you can ultimately decide what is best for YOU.

However, that said it would be prudent to ponder a couple of things, considering that you already stated your desire for a handgun for self-defense or CCW carry.

First and for most, RELIABILTY is top priority.

1. Find/ select a Pistol/ revolver that is as reliable as humanely possible.

2. Select the most powerful caliber that you can shoot quickly with acceptable combat accuaracy (ability to accurately place all rounds into center of mass).

3. Obtain training from a reputable individual/ organization.
-Even if you are a LEO, active/ retired military it still may be highly advantageous to obtain additional training.

4. Practice. -As much as practical

5. SERIOUSLY consider the purchase of a quality .22 lr pistol or revolver. A rimfire will provide you with a low cost training option.

-I have found that using a .22 conversion kit on my 226 (inexpensive) and utilizing a gas operated Airsoft Pistol useful for training when I cannot get to the range.

As for the choice of pistol, I would tend to agree with a couple of others. If you are desiring a Pistol primarily for protection, then stick with a highly recognized manufacturer.

In no particular order; HK, Glock, Sig, Smith & Wesson, and/ or Berretta.

In addition, if a high round count is likely in using the pistol for training then I would tend to gravitate towards a 9mm chambered gun. Because the selected pistol will fare better to a high round count and the cost of ammunition is typically much less.

Finally, unless you are in a high-risk occupation or actively seek-out a problem situation the likelyhood is that you may never use that gun. I know Police Officers who have worked/ work in some of the most high crime areas of the nation and never fired a shot in the line of duty after 15-20 years of service. But then there are some who have only worked for several years and been involved in multiple shootings.

One thing that I will state from personal experience is that when rounds are coming at you on the 2-way range and you are fighting for your life you DO NOT want to be worrying if your gun will malfunction/ or thinking about aligning/ focusing on the front sight. This should be a subconscious process for you.

Chose your pistol wisely, obtain professional training, and learn to identify problem situations so that you may avoid them. But, be prepared for when trouble finds you in the instances when it cannot be avoided.

Regards,
SkiDevil

FF750
09-09-09, 01:41
When it comes to the selection of a gun, many of us buy what is appealing to our eye or what feels good (ergonomically) in the hand/ grip style. Only you can ultimately decide what is best for YOU.

However, that said it would be prudent to ponder a couple of things, considering that you already stated your desire for a handgun for self-defense or CCW carry.

First and for most, RELIABILTY is top priority.

1. Find/ select a Pistol/ revolver that is as reliable as humanely possible.

2. Select the most powerful caliber that you can shoot quickly with acceptable combat accuaracy (ability to accurately place all rounds into center of mass).

3. Obtain training from a reputable individual/ organization.
-Even if you are a LEO, active/ retired military it still may be highly advantageous to obtain additional training.

4. Practice. -As much as practical

5. SERIOUSLY consider the purchase of a quality .22 lr pistol or revolver. A rimfire will provide you with a low cost training option.

-I have found that using a .22 conversion kit on my 226 (inexpensive) and utilizing a gas operated Airsoft Pistol useful for training when I cannot get to the range.

As for the choice of pistol, I would tend to agree with a couple of others. If you are desiring a Pistol primarily for protection, then stick with a highly recognized manufacturer.

In no particular order; HK, Glock, Sig, Smith & Wesson, and/ or Berretta.

In addition, if a high round count is likely in using the pistol for training then I would tend to gravitate towards a 9mm chambered gun. Because the selected pistol will fare better to a high round count and the cost of ammunition is typically much less.

Finally, unless you are in a high-risk occupation or actively seek-out a problem situation the likelyhood is that you may never use that gun. I know Police Officers who have worked/ work in some of the most high crime areas of the nation and never fired a shot in the line of duty after 15-20 years of service. But then there are some who have only worked for several years and been involved in multiple shootings.

One thing that I will state from personal experience is that when rounds are coming at you on the 2-way range and you are fighting for your life you DO NOT want to be worrying if your gun will malfunction/ or thinking about aligning/ focusing on the front sight. This should be a subconscious process for you.

Chose your pistol wisely, obtain professional training, and learn to identify problem situations so that you may avoid them. But, be prepared for when trouble finds you in the instances when it cannot be avoided.

Regards,
SkiDevil

Thanks for all those good tips. I finally got my new M&P40 and will be hitting the range with it again tomorrow. Now that my schedule allows I'll certainly be looking at more intensive training options.