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Pappabear
09-04-09, 15:53
I own two HK pistols and I like them very much. I know they are considerably more pricey than my XD's or Glocks. I was curious from the HK experts, where is the extra quality or cost in mfg. I was reading the HK sticky and it made me ponder.

Some other questions bothering me about my HK45 & P30L:

How good can the trigger jobs be on these guns?
Would you get a trigger job on a carry gun?
I saw a post by Vickers, didn't really understand it, so what should I do to make these guns perfect?

Business_Casual
09-04-09, 16:01
Would you get a trigger job on a carry gun?

Only if I felt I had already been shooting a stock gun as well as it could be shot.

M_P

dobe
09-04-09, 16:05
I have found both the DA and SA on the P30 to be more than satisfactory. The HK45 has a pretty good SA, buth the DA on mine and others has a lot of creep in it. For a carry or SD handgun, I prefer a slightly heavy trigger, so I don't have a problem with the weight, it's the creep.

I'll eventually send my HK45 off for a trigger job.

loupav
09-04-09, 16:08
I think the extra money goes to re-coup the cost of research and development. In the past 20 years how many new guns as HK designed and released?

ToddG
09-04-09, 16:32
I own two HK pistols and I like them very much. I know they are considerably more pricey than my XD's or Glocks. I was curious from the HK experts, where is the extra quality or cost in mfg. I was reading the HK sticky and it made me ponder.

A variety of things affect the cost.

On the quality/coolness side:

exclusive agreement with steel manufacturer for unique barrel steel
every gun is independently proofed twice as well as extensively test fired
probably the highest level of QA in the industry
As loupav pointed out, HK has substantial R&D expenses compared to most other companies. First modern striker-fired handgun? HK. First polymer handgun? HK. Etc.


On the "it just costs more this way" side:

Germany sells guns to the US part of the company at a profit. Then the US part of the company has to sell them at a profit to distributors. Then distributors sell them at a profit to dealers. Then dealers sell them to you at a profit. That extra step of profit gets compounded at every other step along the process.
HK makes a lot of things in-house that other companies farm out, such as their magazines. They maintain closer QA/QC but lose economy of scale benefits.
The guns are fairly complicated to assemble (c.f., Glock) and are assembled in a country where skilled workers get paid a lot. Time * cost of labor is therefore high.



How good can the trigger jobs be on these guns?

Depends on your point of reference. Even a skilled 'smith can't make an HK feel like a 1911.


Would you get a trigger job on a carry gun?

Requoting m_p's outstanding answer: Only if I felt I had already been shooting a stock gun as well as it could be shot.


I saw a post by Vickers, didn't really understand it, so what should I do to make these guns perfect?

Practice with them and get some professional training, then make modifications as necessary to overcome any shortcomings in the gun that aren't shooter-induced.

dobe
09-04-09, 16:53
I'm certainly happy with my HKs.

JBnTX
09-04-09, 19:04
..... I was curious from the HK experts, where is the extra quality or cost in mfg. I was reading the HK sticky and it made me ponder.......


They cost more because they're worth more.
You pay for quality.

sigmundsauer
09-04-09, 22:19
Most over-the-counter HKs have been subject to an import tariff because HK proofed, assembled, and shipped the complete pistol to the U.S., while other companies ship parts and let their U.S. counterparts assemble and conduct QA/QC, or lack thereof.

Yes, it costs more.

Tim

Army Chief
09-05-09, 03:49
I appreciated Todd's summation, though it is probably worth noting that the economic overtones in play here don't necessarily follow any conventional logic -- at least, none that we are likely to find familiar. For example, nothwithstanding the profit margin factors in play between HK GmbH and HK USA, the fact is that HKs are even more expensive (by a rather wide margin) in Germany. The 19% sales tax surely isn't helping in that regard, but even when that is factored out, there are no discounts for the home team, and none are expected.

As for what makes HKs more expensive in a broader sense, I would say that German firearms follow the same trend that we see in German automobiles. The Wal-Mart mentality is something that is noticeably absent in German culture, and as such, there is no real concept of "good enough." Value is seen as a component of quality and durability, rather than price and availability.

Applying this thinking to the production of durable goods, if a tool or machine would perform best for the longest period of time using x-grade steel, then that is what will be used, even if it costs twice as much. Where we might typically assign three engineers to a given project, the Germans would probably assign 10. If production processes are deemed to require new tooling and/or x-number of separate operations, then that is what will be directed, without calls for cheaper work-arounds or alternative methods. If taking things to this level means that it takes twice as long to build, and only half as many can be built, then that it simply the way it will be. Anything less would simply be nicht im ordnung.

Why does an HK cost more? Well, some of it is just economics, but a lot of it is simply the consequence of working with better materials, placing more emphasis upon engineering and design, and making sure that the finished product is precisely what it was intended to be. In this, it is a perfect reflection of the German mentality. Think it's just an HK thing? Take another look at what Walther and SIG-Sauer were up to in the 70s, 80s and 90s before they got entangled with US co-production arrangements.

AC

RogerinTPA
09-05-09, 10:47
AC hit the nail on the head about the German mindset. They are notorious for quality over quantity, often over-engineering any specific product. The part about the absence of the "WalMart" mentality in German society is spot on. That probably explains why German built HKs are more highly prized and more expensive than their US HK counterparts.

JiMfraRED1911
09-05-09, 14:13
EPIC thread

Outlander Systems
09-05-09, 20:18
...so what should I do to make these guns perfect?


Buy a holster for each one.

That's it.

Hunter Rose
09-05-09, 21:40
Why are HKs more expensive?

Simple, because they never jam and always go bang! :D

Pappabear
09-06-09, 00:11
http://www.purekustomleather.com/

I ordered the "Black Ops Pro" from these guys. I'll let you know how I like it. Its my first leather holster. I have a Blade Tech for it, but wanted to try leather.

Bought a simple Blackhawk for the P30, so the nose sticks out a little, but it works.

NinjaMedic
09-06-09, 22:43
I couldn't in good conscience order a product from a kompany that spells kustom with a "K"

loupav
09-06-09, 22:56
I couldn't in good conscience order a product from a kompany that spells kustom with a "K"


Then just walk into the store and pick one off the shelf! :D

This thread is making me think we should have a HK Pistol Picture Thread. M&P's have one, 1911's have one and even Glocks. Just a suggestion though.

senorlinc
09-07-09, 00:57
simple, its all about the advertising budget ..... the HK Marketing Department Slogan : "HK. Because you suck. And we hate you. " wasnt cheap :D

i in al seriousness though, Todd is right. quality isnt cheap, neither is german engineering, taxes or dealing with multiple middlemen in the journey from the source to your local dealer

i have a p7 that has been nothing less than a joy to own and shoot, im not sure but that pistol seems overly engineered. i have also owned an sl8 that was a top notch piece of engineering and quality. p30 is on the way

tpd223
09-07-09, 07:24
I used to own several HK USP .45s.

For me what made an HK an HK was; being really hard to detail strip, unavailability of parts, shitty customer service, and really expensive magazines.

WhoUtink
09-07-09, 08:46
I used to own several HK USP .45s.

For me what made an HK an HK was; being really hard to detail strip, unavailability of parts, shitty customer service, and really expensive magazines.

lol, ^this

Business_Casual
09-07-09, 08:56
Hey, Whoutink, check yourself out:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33741&highlight=stupid+internet+sayings

Or are you just trying to run up a post count so you can sell here in the new forums?

M_P

Army Chief
09-07-09, 09:15
i have a p7 that has been nothing less than a joy to own and shoot, im not sure but that pistol seems overly engineered.

I don't know if I would say that it is "over" engineered, but clearly, everything about the P7 is reflective of the Teutonic penchant for such things ....

- The grip angle was calculated to be optimal for human ergonomics.
- The gas system, while simple in principle, was innovative in the extreme.
- The extraction/ejection system was designed to function even in the case of lost components.
- The polygonal rifling and fixed barrel were designed to provide extreme accuracy and ease of maintenance.
- The squeeze-cocking operating system was designed to provide safety and speed on a level never achieved before ... or since.
- The ambidextrous controls were designed to provide an identical manual of arms for left and right handed firers at a time when no one was doing this.

Everything from the front strap stippling to the flattened/serrated slide top seems engineered to provide optimal custom features in a production handgun. One needn't own (or even like) the P7 to see that it embodied a very high tech approach to engineering and design, and we would do well to remember that they were doing this in the early-to-mid 1970s!

Given that these pistols are incredibly reliable, I'm not so sure how one might define "over" engineering, but it's true that anyone who has ever had the courage to remove the grip panels from a P7 has surely has come to the realization that they are looking at one of the most complex pistols ever designed.

AC

senorlinc
09-07-09, 21:45
I don't know if I would say that it is "over" engineered, but clearly, everything about the P7 is reflective of the Teutonic penchant for such things ....

........Given that these pistols are incredibly reliable, I'm not so sure how one might define "over" engineering, but it's true that anyone who has ever had the courage to remove the grip panels from a P7 has surely has come to the realization that they are looking at one of the most complex pistols ever designed.

AC

ok, while i did subject myself to 2 years of engineering classes in my university days, i am far from an engineer. i will admit to using the term for a lack of an otherwise appropriate term. i would be alright if we add "over engineered" to modern pirate's list of words that irritate:)

i have taken the grip panels off and i was intimidated. i realised that putting them back on immediately would probably save me a headache as well as nice sum of money if i made the attempt to go any further with a dis assembly

shittercrewchief
09-07-09, 23:44
Because this is sexy.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w41/fast41eagle/P1080215.jpg

Army Chief
09-07-09, 23:58
To be completely honest, I had originally mis-read your post and had to adjust fire a bit myself; that said, I wasn't taking issue with the observation so much as just suggesting that when a pistol works so well, and fails so infrequently, it is really tough to say "how much is too much" in the engineering sense.

Having have stripped P7s down to the frame a number of times over the years, and can certainly understand where you might not want to wade into those waters. It definitely helps if you take clear photos as you go, so you have a reference work from as you seek to reverse the steps. :)

AC

graffex
09-08-09, 00:39
Why are HKs more expensive?

Simple, because they never jam and always go bang! :D

I hate to break it to you but, all guns can jam and fail to go bang.

civilian
09-08-09, 09:08
Agreed!

http://www.pbase.com/ashinoyu/image/116986013/large.jpg


Because this is sexy.

Pappabear
09-08-09, 10:36
Hey Civilian, that is a straight up Wicked looking pistol. Thanks for the pic!

dookie1481
09-08-09, 14:56
Because this is sexy.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w41/fast41eagle/P1080215.jpg

One of the greatest screen names ever LMAO

Jay

gtmtnbiker98
09-08-09, 19:02
Shitter = CH53? Haven't heard that one in a long time!

spr1
09-08-09, 19:26
Don't forget the exchange rate on the current pricing. Dollars are weak and as we print more, will get weaker.....

shittercrewchief
09-08-09, 20:21
if the whole importing from Germany thing is so expensive why does hk charge the same for a US made hk 45 or P30 compared to a German one? Just Because they can?

senorlinc
09-08-09, 23:37
To be completely honest, I had originally mis-read your post and had to adjust fire a bit myself; that said, I wasn't taking issue with the observation so much as just suggesting that when a pistol works so well, and fails so infrequently, it is really tough to say "how much is too much" in the engineering sense.

Having have stripped P7s down to the frame a number of times over the years, and can certainly understand where you might not want to wade into those waters. It definitely helps if you take clear photos as you go, so you have a reference work from as you seek to reverse the steps. :)

AC

no worries. i had just read a post regarding terminology that was overused or used incorrectly, i felt like a culprit of this violation.

photos are a great idea. i watched a few different videos online but i still feel less than enthusiastic above taking that plunge

i only have about 600 rounds of experience firing the P7 but they were quite enjoyable (except for the heat build up under the barrel)

kanak
09-09-09, 02:05
if the whole importing from Germany thing is so expensive why does hk charge the same for a US made hk 45 or P30 compared to a German one? Just Because they can?Now this is an interesting question. It's like my question about the reasoning for the high cost of things made in China. If it's sent over there because of cheaper manufacturing, how the hell are we getting charged an arm and a leg for it back here in the U.S.?

Does HK charge the same price for US made products because a majority of the parts are still made in Germany? I know Todd was explaining the quality control that goes into it...would that cost be the same if it's performed here in the states?

SteyrAUG
09-09-09, 02:14
I own two HK pistols and I like them very much. I know they are considerably more pricey than my XD's or Glocks. I was curious from the HK experts, where is the extra quality or cost in mfg. I was reading the HK sticky and it made me ponder.

Some other questions bothering me about my HK45 & P30L:

How good can the trigger jobs be on these guns?
Would you get a trigger job on a carry gun?
I saw a post by Vickers, didn't really understand it, so what should I do to make these guns perfect?


Same thing that makes a SIG a SIG and a Colt a Colt.

Glocks are simply cheaper to produce and XDs are made in Croatia. By the same token FN has a reputation similar to HK for quality handguns and they have a P series which is quite affordable. SIG also has the SIG Pro series for about the same price.

It seems HK (at least so far) has decided not to enter the "budget gun" market.

SteyrAUG
09-09-09, 02:20
I used to own several HK USP .45s.

For me what made an HK an HK was; being really hard to detail strip, unavailability of parts, shitty customer service, and really expensive magazines.

If you found the USP hard to strip, you don't wanna go near a 1911.

:p

I once had a problem with one of my USPs (control lever) and I shipped it to HK, they fixed it for FREE under warranty and shipped it back all in the space of 30 days. Seems like decent enough customer service to me.

As for mags, cost the same as SIG, FN and many other manufacturers charge for magazines.

Savior 6
09-09-09, 02:34
Why are HKs more expensive?

Simple, because they never jam and always go bang! :D

Unless you use Magtech Ammo. I never again, will.

variablebinary
09-09-09, 05:19
HK makes a good gun. Being built to anal German standards, somewhat complex and imported feed into the cost.

Still, I think HK's is overpriced across their entire product line, but they are good guns.

ColdDeadHands
09-09-09, 06:56
I saw a post by Vickers, didn't really understand it, so what should I do to make these guns perfect?

Buy ammo and shoot them! New HK Owners can be disappointed as my Buddy with his new HK45 is...He was constantly hitting low until he changed his sight picture and only let the trigger return forward till it resets. When I was shooting it I was dead on as I am used to HK Triggers. They take some getting used to but once you are they are awesome imho.

tpd223
09-16-09, 23:09
My USPs wouldn't feed Ranger-T 230gr +P at all, so they do in fact choke at times.

I know of a fair number of USP .40s with broken firing pins.

ToddG
09-17-09, 15:15
My USPs wouldn't feed Ranger-T 230gr +P at all, so they do in fact choke at times.

Were they USP45s? :cool:


I know of a fair number of USP .40s with broken firing pins.

HK has had various problems with firing pins in the original USP series of guns, to the point that they retrofitted thousands of guns in federal service years back.

WhoUtink
10-15-09, 10:22
Hey, Whoutink, check yourself out:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33741&highlight=stupid+internet+sayings

Or are you just trying to run up a post count so you can sell here in the new forums?

M_P
Ohhh hell yah, I joined here over a year ago and just bought my first ar last week, and only have 12 posts. You got me pegged. I am different then you, I except it, maybe you should to.

eta, I said "this" because I agree and the "lol" because thought it was funny.