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variablebinary
09-06-09, 01:51
Went to Robarm to pick up a new part. There was lots of activity buzzing around and faces I didnt recognize.

Sadly, I didnt have a camera, but I snagged a couple of pics with my mobile phone.

This soldier stopped in to get an update on his select fire, military Micro carbine. He didnt want his face revealed, or anything else.

http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/xcrmicro100.jpg

Closer look

http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/xcrmicro101.jpg

True blue production Micro Uppers
http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/xcrmicro102.jpg


http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/xcrmicro103.jpg

Close up of the Micro. Notice the ambi mag release, and select fire position

http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/xcrmicro104.jpg

buddyhoohaw
09-06-09, 09:39
Very nice! I dig the shorty stock.

Cheers

Robb Jensen
09-06-09, 10:48
I like that, pretty damn cool.

variablebinary
09-06-09, 18:45
Also, the Micro features a 1/7 chrome lined barrel

The Micro will have 1/7 standard, as will the PDW

Micro - 7.5" barrel, 13.25" long upper receiver
PDW/Mini - 9" barrel, 15.25" long upper receiver

VooDoo6Actual
09-07-09, 11:22
VERY nicely done.

I feel the need....

Mo_Zam_Beek
09-07-09, 19:27
Note the Wolf ammo on the table.

Impact
09-07-09, 20:41
nice...

note the Magpul sling :)

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-07-09, 23:53
Note, Variablebinary went there for replacement parts...



Oh. common, that's funny, and hopefully totally made-up. Either VB lives pretty close, or he has a much worse XCR crush than we all thought.

With the KAC PDW and the ACR in limbo, these look better and better.

variablebinary
09-08-09, 00:18
Note, Variablebinary went there for replacement parts...



Oh. common, that's funny, and hopefully totally made-up. Either VB lives pretty close, or he has a much worse XCR crush than we all thought.

With the KAC PDW and the ACR in limbo, these look better and better.

It's true. Here's a pic of the redesigned bolt catch I got installed.

I absolutely hated the old design, so I am content with the change.

Robarm is close so getting service is easy. No shipping label needed.

http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/xcrbho6.jpg

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-08-09, 00:55
That is a lot more robust looking than the old one isn't it?

variablebinary
09-08-09, 04:46
That is a lot more robust looking than the old one isn't it?

The new version is a machined, single piece design. It's more AR15-ish, and will probably last a lifetime

The old design was made from two pieces where a metal pin was staked through a metal post. It was no where near as beefy.

chavez_e_chavez
09-08-09, 08:39
i think that looks awesome, almost a ancestor to the hk mp5..Very cool indeed

SHIVAN
09-08-09, 10:10
This soldier stopped in to get an update on his select fire, military Micro carbine.

How is he getting a select-fire version? :confused:

decodeddiesel
09-08-09, 10:30
How is he getting a select-fire version? :confused:

That's exactly what I was thinking. :confused:

RogerinTPA
09-08-09, 15:32
I was wondering the same thing. (J/K)

That thing a super sweet!:cool:

Suggested retail price and projected date of availablity?

FYI: Don't tease if you can't please.:D

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-08-09, 16:09
The new version is a machined, single piece design. It's more AR15-ish, and will probably last a lifetime

The old design was made from two pieces where a metal pin was staked through a metal post. It was no where near as beefy.

Sounds like they are addressing issues that some people have pointed out. That is encouraging. The main thing that gives me pause now is the barrel lock-in method.

We are looking at a couple of months and $1599, right?

ramrod
09-08-09, 21:45
Yeah, how does a soldier get a selectfire? That XCR looks like a really nice daewoo, does it use the same piston op rod setup like the daewoo?

variablebinary
09-09-09, 00:41
I just take pics of toys I want and share em with you guys ;)

I don't know what the deal was with the Soldier and the gun. It wasn't my place either

scottryan
09-09-09, 01:06
Sounds like they are addressing issues that some people have pointed out.


Any word on any other issues they might address such as the stock hinge design or the picatinny rail slots?

rob_s
09-09-09, 05:56
Doesn't seem like it would take much to modify the lower design in the CAD program and pop out some traditional AR lowers with that ambi bolt release. I think that would be about the extent of my interest.

JoshNC
09-09-09, 18:25
Would be nice if they offered a better stock design with a hinge and locking mechanism similar to that of the Swiss Arms 55x/HK G36/UMP/FN SCAR-type design.

Overall, I like it and think this will make the XCR a very appealing option.

AESIR
09-14-09, 14:47
Would be nice if they offered a better stock design with a hinge and locking mechanism similar to that of the Swiss Arms 55x/HK G36/UMP/FN SCAR-type design.

Overall, I like it and think this will make the XCR a very appealing option.

We are working on a new stock design which we hope to have available before the new year.

It will feature a locking mechanism, adjustable length of pull, and an adjustable cheek piece.

It's nothing like competing designs, and gives the XCR a completely new aesthetic and level of functionally we think current and future prospective customers will respond positively to.

We have a prototype of the new stock on an XCR Micro sitting in the engineer's office, and it is certainly eye catching kit.

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-14-09, 22:00
AESIR,

Sir- The stock sounds really interesting. I'm more Special Ed. than Special Op., but I worry that such a stock might be too complicated? I know the SCAR/ACR stocks have that kind of functionality, but the folding SIG stock on the Classic 556 rifles do too. It seems that in the Sigs case, a regular swing stock with clean lines is preferred over the adustable LOP model. I have not handled a XCR (Yet ;) ) but I really like the simple lines of the current stock. I would hope that the current stock design could be updated with the hinge design and have that offered along side the Uber Stock.

Is the barrel attachment method be re-evaluated also?

Thanks

scottryan
09-14-09, 22:02
We are working on a new stock design which we hope to have available before the new year.

It will feature a locking mechanism, adjustable length of pull, and an adjustable cheek piece.

It's nothing like competing designs, and gives the XCR a completely new aesthetic and level of functionally we think current and future prospective customers will respond positively to.

We have a prototype of the new stock on an XCR Micro sitting in the engineer's office, and it is certainly eye catching kit.


What about removing the center slots down the picatinny rails?

jsebens
09-15-09, 00:32
Is it just me, or is that soldier wearing a ROTC patch?

AESIR
09-15-09, 14:55
AESIR,

but I worry that such a stock might be too complicated?

Is the barrel attachment method be re-evaluated also?




What about removing the center slots down the picatinny rails?

The new stock design is not complicated at all. It's actually quite simple, easy to adjust and very robust. Durability will not be lost for the sake of additional adjustment points

As for the other questions, we appreciate the feedback. Please keep an eye on our website for updates on future developments.

caporider
09-15-09, 16:25
What about removing the center slots down the picatinny rails?

YES! Please provide in-spec Pic rails on the XCR.

variablebinary
09-17-09, 06:19
A couple of quick Micro pics, and a PDW pic.

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z305/aziator/IMG_3404Large.jpg

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z305/aziator/IMG_3398Large.jpg

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z305/aziator/IMG_3400Large.jpg


Terra posted a pic of this on another forum, and I had to swing by and get a quick shot on my lunch break
http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/xcrir5.jpg

scottryan
09-17-09, 10:33
As for the other questions, we appreciate the feedback. Please keep an eye on our website for updates on future developments.



So basically the rail issue is not going to be addressed in the near future (if at all). This is the primary problem with the gun and should have been addressed first.

Making a 7" XCR should not have been a priority.

rob_s
09-17-09, 10:47
So basically the rail issue is not going to be addressed in the near future (if at all). This is the primary problem with the gun and should have been addressed first.

Making a 7" XCR should not have been a priority.

I have to agree here. I see a 7" 5.56 AR as not much more than a toy, and much like the slot down the center of the rails it would appear to indicate a set of priorities that I find disconcerting, although revealing.

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-17-09, 10:48
So basically the rail issue is not going to be addressed in the near future (if at all). This is the primary problem with the gun and should have been addressed first.

Making a 7" XCR should not have been a priority.

Wellll, with the PDW there is less rail, so you should be proportionately happier ;)

Jack-O
09-17-09, 12:26
So basically the rail issue is not going to be addressed in the near future (if at all). This is the primary problem with the gun and should have been addressed first.

XCR owners will tell you that IN PRACTICE the rail design has not been an issue for them. It might be keeping a few souls from purchasing, but it's never been a problem for those who own them. Weird huh?

The stock hinge mechanism is very robust and well made. I'm not sure why it's being presented as a "problem". It locks up solidly, releases easily and is adjustable if you dont like the way it is acting. What more could you want?

I've only owned an XCR for about 4 years now, and have thousands of rounds thru the system (including LOTS of wolf). NONE of the things presented here have been an issue for me in that time.


The XCR has been under constant review for improvements. I think it speaks volumes that Alex has put aside ego, and is able to continue to make improvements to the system. I doubt you'd find that sort of dedication or flexibility in companies like HK, FN, Colt or other big manufacturers and other designs.

RA has always been very responsive to customer input, and a few very active shooters like VB have taken your input and helped steer the XCR project into what may become the best fighting rifle system ever made.:cool:

scottryan
09-17-09, 14:15
XCR owners will tell you that IN PRACTICE the rail design has not been an issue for them. It might be keeping a few souls from purchasing, but it's never been a problem for those who own them. Weird huh?



Bullshit.

The rail is not compatible with KAC, Larue, or ADM equipment if not more brands. The centering studs on these attachments is not supported by the style of rail used on the XCR.

The gun is also not compatible with KAC panels. They just slip off. Not a problem, right?

scottryan
09-17-09, 14:16
I doubt you'd find that sort of dedication or flexibility in companies like HK, FN, Colt or other big manufacturers and other designs.




Those companies don't have stuff screwed up from the get go.

Jack-O
09-17-09, 20:22
Bullshit.

The rail is not compatible with KAC, Larue, or ADM equipment if not more brands. The centering studs on these attachments is not supported by the style of rail used on the XCR.

The gun is also not compatible with KAC panels. They just slip off. Not a problem, right?


Never tried KAC or ADM, but larue works just fine.

Jack-O
09-17-09, 20:47
Those companies don't have stuff screwed up from the get go.

LOL!!


I doubt you really believe that these manufacturers have never made any improvements after introduction. Hell, the AR platform has taken Colt 40 years to get to where it is today!! Sig has made several changes to the 556 platform, albiet grudgingly. HK 416 mags took the first hand launching of a grenade by a rep to have them install a rubber stopper in the floorplate, and only recently have they installed a stiffer spring. The FS2000, has had complaints of a weak charging handle, but the best you'll get out of them is a new handle. The magpul ACR is so messed up that they cant seem to even bring it to market. Numerous piston AR designs are failures waiting to happen, and can barely match the reliability of a standard well made DI AR. The SCAR has it's own issues with it's knuckle grater charging handle and retarded prices and availability and wait times that are exceeding 1 year.

I'm not saying that Robinson is the best thing going and they have no issues, but if you look at them in a fair light compared to other "advanced" designs, they have been out longer, have a lower price, better factory service, more responsive to customer demands, and show the best combination of features and reliability potential of any rifle out there on the market today.

BUT, if you want to throw the whole thing out because they dont offer a full spec picatinny rail as standard, then be my guest. BUUT I'll bet you good money that if you called the factory and asked for Terra or Alex and requested a proper picatinny rail on your rifle they'd do one up for you. ;)

Try it!!:cool:

variablebinary
09-17-09, 21:08
Bullshit.

The rail is not compatible with KAC, Larue, or ADM equipment if not more brands. The centering studs on these attachments is not supported by the style of rail used on the XCR.

The gun is also not compatible with KAC panels. They just slip off. Not a problem, right?

KAC VFG. True

KAC Panels. True (Lump the SCAR and ACR in there too while you are at it)

ADM Mounts. FALSE. I have an ADM Mount on my XCR and it works perfect

Larue Mounts. FALSE. I have two Larue Mounts. Both do exactly what they are supposed to

No need to feed inaccurate information.

Try and find ten XCR owners to back up any claim about incompatibility with ADM and Larue mounts. You'll be looking the rest of your life because it isn't true.

This is a baseless claim with zero evidence or testimonials from actual XCR OWNERS to back it up.

scottryan
09-18-09, 00:32
ADM Mounts. FALSE. I have an ADM Mount on my XCR and it works perfect

Larue Mounts. FALSE. I have two Larue Mounts. Both do exactly what they are supposed to

No need to feed inaccurate information.

Try and find ten XCR owners to back up any claim about incompatibility with ADM and Larue mounts. You'll be looking the rest of your life because it isn't true.

This is a baseless claim with zero evidence or testimonials from actual XCR OWNERS to back it up.


Nope.

That is because most XCR owners don't care or don't know any better or don't know how things are really suppose to work on a technical level.

Larue and ADM have small centering studs that interact with the center of an in-spec picatinny rail so the locking cross bar doesn't take all the load.

If a picatinny rail is used like on the XCR these mounts are not being used as designed and not fully supported.

I'm well aware the mount will go on the XCR rail and lock and can be used. That doesn't mean it is completely correct or as good as it is suppose to be.

scottryan
09-18-09, 00:39
LOL!!


I doubt you really believe that these manufacturers have never made any improvements after introduction. Hell, the AR platform has taken Colt 40 years to get to where it is today!! Sig has made several changes to the 556 platform, albiet grudgingly. HK 416 mags took the first hand launching of a grenade by a rep to have them install a rubber stopper in the floorplate, and only recently have they installed a stiffer spring. The FS2000, has had complaints of a weak charging handle, but the best you'll get out of them is a new handle. The magpul ACR is so messed up that they cant seem to even bring it to market. Numerous piston AR designs are failures waiting to happen, and can barely match the reliability of a standard well made DI AR. The SCAR has it's own issues with it's knuckle grater charging handle and retarded prices and availability and wait times that are exceeding 1 year.



How much experiece to do you have with a HK416, SCAR, and Masada?

The SIG556 is a piece of trash.




BUT, if you want to throw the whole thing out because they dont offer a full spec picatinny rail as standard, then be my guest. BUUT I'll bet you good money that if you called the factory and asked for Terra or Alex and requested a proper picatinny rail on your rifle they'd do one up for you. ;)


The XCR has significant underdevelopment issues.

The rail, the stock locking mech, the barrel locking bolt, the bolt catch (although fixed) where problems that should have been fixed when the rifle was released.

variablebinary
09-18-09, 01:15
Nope.

That is because most XCR owners don't care or don't know any better or don't know how things are really suppose to work on a technical level.

Larue and ADM have small centering studs that interact with the center of an in-spec picatinny rail so the locking cross bar doesn't take all the load.

If a picatinny rail is used like on the XCR these mounts are not being used as designed and not fully supported.

I'm well aware the mount will go on the XCR rail and lock and can be used. That doesn't mean it is completely correct or as good as it is suppose to be.

Everything you just wrote is B.S. unless you can show someone, anyone, anywhere that had a Larue Mount fail on an XCR.

You're literally conjuring up something not backed by a single shred of evidence.

You have zero experience mounting any devices to the XCR, if you did you would know the "centering studs" on Larue mounts engage both sides of the XCR's rail canal, making it impossible to slide Larue Mounts without breaking the mount or ripping off the XCR's rails.

This is outright falsehood that anyone who actually has a Larue Mount and an XCR could tell you

This is some half baked theory you have that will not be supported by anything in the real world.

scottryan
09-18-09, 01:38
Everything you just wrote is B.S. unless you can show someone, anyone, anywhere that had a Larue Mount fail on an XCR.

You're literally conjuring up something not backed by a single shred of evidence.

You have zero experience mounting any devices to the XCR, if you did you would know the "centering studs" on Larue mounts engage both sides of the XCR's rail canal, making it impossible to slide Larue Mounts without breaking the mount or ripping off the XCR's rails.

This is outright falsehood that anyone who actually has a Larue Mount and an XCR could tell you

This is some half baked theory you have that will not be supported by anything in the real world.


The studs are not fully supported as they would be if the rail did not have a center slot because the length of the studs are not the full width of the rail. Why do you think ADM, Larue, etc put the studs there in the first place?

Are you really on the XCR kool aid this much you can't admit this simple fact?

I don't defend Colt for making the 6940 incompatible with KAC panels.

You are so proud to share with us the 7" XCR. I would be pissed if Colt released such a loser novelty of a weapon.

Get off the ****ing XCR kool aid.

variablebinary
09-18-09, 01:46
The studs are not fully supported as they would be if the rail did not have a center slot because the length of the studs are not the full width of the rail. Why do you think ADM, Larue, etc put the studs there in the first place?

Are you really on the XCR kool aid this much you can't admit this simple fact?

I don't defend Colt for making the 6940 incompatible with KAC panels.

You are so proud to share with us the 7" XCR. I would be pissed if Colt released such a novelty of a weapon.

Get off the ****ing kool aid.

You still don't have a single instance of anyone anywhere having an issue with Larue/ADM on the XCR. You made it up. There is no problem with incompatibility

KAC rail panels, slide, sure. I've seen it first hand in my home with my XCR and my KAC panels.

When have you seen Larue/ADM mounts fail on an XCR anywhere. You haven't, so stop making up elaborate fantasies.

Either the mounts work, or they dont. Show me even a handful of XCR owners that will say they don't. Till then, everyone needs to know you're making crap up. You can rant and rave to your heart's content, you're still wrong.

scottryan
09-18-09, 01:51
You still don't have a single instance of anyone anywhere having an issue with Larue/ADM on the XCR. You made it up. There is no problem with incompatibility

KAC rail panels, slide, sure. I've seen it first hand in my home with my XCR and my KAC panels.

When have you seen Larue/ADM mounts fail on an XCR anywhere. You haven't, so stop making up elaborate fantasies.

Either the mounts work, or they dont. Show me even a handful of XCR owners that will say they don't. Till then, everyone needs to know you're making crap up.


Why do they put the studs on the mounts?

variablebinary
09-18-09, 02:01
Why do they put the studs on the mounts?

Whatever purpose you think they serve, they engage the rail to a degree that you would have to destroy the rail or the mount to achieve lateral or forward backward movement prior to being secured by the throw lever.

There is no problem, no matter how many times you curse, type in large font or whatever, and no one with an XCR is going to back up your scenario where Larue ADM mounts dont work on the XCR.

Show me anyone that will say their mounts failed due to the rail design. Anyone. Just one person. If you cant, you cant

You can call it kool-aid if you like, but my position is still backed by hundreds of XCR owners using Larue mounts happily. When you can get a Larue or ADM off my XCR without destroying either, you'll have more credibility

As for kool-aid, I've been accused of being a Glock, LWRC, Colt, Eotech, ACR and XCR kool-aid drinker in the past couple of months. Get a ticket and get in line, because it's not like I haven't heard it before.

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-18-09, 02:35
Is the stud engagement part of the Mil-spec, or is just a consequence of the mil-spec dimensions?

Be interesting to take some rails and some attachments and test their breaking point.

Sensei
09-18-09, 05:16
I've had an Aimpoint Comp M4 and 3X magnifier mounted on my XCR for 1.5 years - both with Larue mounts. I've never had a problem with several thousand rounds fired. Having said that, this is now a range gun and I've never put it thru a class or run it thru the mud.

Sean King
09-18-09, 09:25
Bullshit.

The rail is not compatible with KAC, Larue, or ADM equipment if not more brands. The centering studs on these attachments is not supported by the style of rail used on the XCR.


"Why don't you try being informed......Instead of just being opinionated?" :p (That's a joke). :)

Seriously though, I have LaRue and GG&G mounts (as well as an ADM) that I have mounted on both of my XCRs. There's been no problems with regard to holding zero (or anything else) with any of the mounts .....

Yes, in the past I also thought that at least the very top rail where optics get mounted should be a full Picatinny rail.....but after using it more, the XCR's rail is fine as it is. The little block on some mounts still engages the rail "teeth" for lack of a better word on the XCR rail so it's a non issue.

I don't run KAC parts so I couldn't tell you about the KAC panel or KAC VFG thing....but I've heard you're right. If that's the case....there are any number of other mfgs. of panels and VFGs that do work....I know b/c I have (or had them in the case of panels) them on my XCR.

JFYI.....

Sean

Jack-O
09-18-09, 10:31
I've gotta know what the complaint is with the stock folding mechanism. Frankly I could see why someone would not like the rails because they just had to have a KAC mount, but the folding mech?!?! that thing is bomb proof IME.

seriously Scott, if you want an XCR with a full width rail on it, just ask for it when you buy the gun, and you could get it. Otherwise you are clearly someone who wants to badmouth a system without ever having tried it, in which case STFU.

Oh, and I love the 3rd grade attempts to discredit actual first hand user reports from heavily active shooters as "kool aid" :D Remember that it's only bad to drink kool aid if it has poison in it. ;)


SR
dude, your gun is weak

VB
I dont think so, it's worked really well for me

SR
yeah, well, you have poopy pants

VB
No i dont, here look

jack
dude, look his pants are clean

SR
I'm not looking, i can tell from here he has poopy pants

VB
Bro, seriously smell my finger. It's poop free

SR
There is no ****in way I'm smelling your finger. you are a koolaid drinking pants poo'er, and i hate you

jack
umm, yeah man, i'm not smelling your finger either, but it's clear you haven't poo'ed you pants and your gun is delicious kool aid

Jay Cunningham
09-18-09, 10:32
Get this thread back on track.

Chieftain
09-22-09, 05:16
I would be pissed if Colt released such a loser novelty of a weapon.

Funny, they did. We called it the E1M16. I really did put fellow Marine bodies in body bags and MedEvac'd out other Marines because of that "Loser Novelty" weapon Colt foisted on the US military. I don't recommend a fire fight with the NVA and you holding a single shot, fully automatic plastic rifle that don't work. I believe it was possible one of the earliest of the extreme sports. I do know it was a killer.

And PLEASE! it wasn't just the powder in the cartridges, that just exacerbated a very poorly executed and designed POS that some one had the temerity to call a rifle. Another reason the Air Force should select the rifle for the the Army or Marine infantry.

That was back in 1967.

Col. Culver tells the story much better than I can. He has a lot more facts than I do. I was not in the Col's outfit, but our experiences were similar and we were there about the same time both in the 3rd Marine Division:

Part I
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/index.html

Part II
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/M16part2.html

But that is only if you can get off the Colt kool Aide long enough to allow some facts to get in. This story isn't opinion, or fantasy, this is history. It really happened, and I was one of the folks there while it was happening.

My XCR works just fine. All my equipment is attached by Larue mounts. I have one of the very early models serial number 5XX about 4 years old now. But you know all that, don't you. After all you know and understand the technology.

As to the Colt guns, I see where that weapon is still getting troops killed and captured in Iraq. Of course you can always spout the OFFICIAL line of crap, The Army desperately trying to justify keeping a weak design and cartridge in the troops hands. Heck even when the tried to FIX the first "sand" test their rifle lost. Not as bad as the second test that folks were now looking for them to cheat, so they had to play it square. But I understand you love the kool aide.

I guess it's those little machined in little blocks that make all the difference. At least to you.

A little advice from ole LtCol Jeff Cooper:



"Do not be preoccupied with inconsequential increments."

Sheesh, talk about a loss of preportion.

Go figure.

Fred

rob_s
09-22-09, 09:02
Now that hysteria has abounded in both directions...

For those that have the XCRs, is there reason for the missing sections of rail? Is it strictly a weight saving measure? If so what is the number of oz. saved over doing it the "right" way? Or is it just an aesthetic treatment to try and make the gun stand out?

On a side note, saw some pictures on another forum of what appeared to be welded (or at least aggressively staked) bolts on the extractor and what is captioned as being a better one-piece bolt catch. Moves in the right direction for sure.

Chieftain
09-23-09, 06:23
Now that hysteria has abounded in both directions...

Ah.... the ole’ “I have no valid argument to answer with, so I will call everyone else hysterical.”

Fascinating.

Funny how these days facts and REAL history is accused of being hysteria. Wow. I guess we need to rewrite that history too.



For those that have the XCRs, is there reason for the missing sections of rail? Is it strictly a weight saving measure? If so what is the number of oz. saved over doing it the "right" way? Or is it just an aesthetic treatment to try and make the gun stand out?

Yea there appears to be a very important reason. To really piss off folks that think it is important and that it really makes a difference. The surprising part is that the folks that get the most “hysterical” about it, are the folks that would not consider the “other” rifle on a bet. Some folks would call that being defensive.

Such is the nature of religious faith and dogma when a believer thinks they themselves or their object of worship is under attack.

Simply amazing.



On a side note, saw some pictures on another forum of what appeared to be welded (or at least aggressively staked) bolts on the extractor and what is captioned as being a better one-piece bolt catch. Moves in the right direction for sure.

Yup, and it didn’t take 30-40 years to fix it. And no US troops died in finding out what didn’t work either. Unlike the AR15/M16/M4 systems.

I guess some folks just have a different value system than I do.

It really is amazing.

Go figure.

Fred

rob_s
09-23-09, 06:27
Wow, the irony of spending an entire post defending your hysteria while simultaneously not providing a single constructive point. I'm shocked. :rolleyes:

I asked a legitimate question. If you can't get past your emotional attachment to your purchases and answer legitimate questions perhaps you should take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard.

Iraqgunz
09-23-09, 07:34
Just out of curiousity. What troops in Iraq were killed due to their Colt weapon failing? Just wondering since I have been over there for almost 3 years total since 2005 and never heard about it.

For the record I don't own a Colt not do I have a Robinson Arms anything.


Funny, they did. We called it the E1M16. I really did put fellow Marine bodies in body bags and MedEvac'd out other Marines because of that "Loser Novelty" weapon Colt foisted on the US military. I don't recommend a fire fight with the NVA and you holding a single shot, fully automatic plastic rifle that don't work. I believe it was possible one of the earliest of the extreme sports. I do know it was a killer.

And PLEASE! it wasn't just the powder in the cartridges, that just exacerbated a very poorly executed and designed POS that some one had the temerity to call a rifle. Another reason the Air Force should select the rifle for the the Army or Marine infantry.

That was back in 1967.

Col. Culver tells the story much better than I can. He has a lot more facts than I do. I was not in the Col's outfit, but our experiences were similar and we were there about the same time both in the 3rd Marine Division:

Part I
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/index.html

Part II
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/M16part2.html

But that is only if you can get off the Colt kool Aide long enough to allow some facts to get in. This story isn't opinion, or fantasy, this is history. It really happened, and I was one of the folks there while it was happening.

My XCR works just fine. All my equipment is attached by Larue mounts. I have one of the very early models serial number 5XX about 4 years old now. But you know all that, don't you. After all you know and understand the technology.

As to the Colt guns, I see where that weapon is still getting troops killed and captured in Iraq. Of course you can always spout the OFFICIAL line of crap, The Army desperately trying to justify keeping a weak design and cartridge in the troops hands. Heck even when the tried to FIX the first "sand" test their rifle lost. Not as bad as the second test that folks were now looking for them to cheat, so they had to play it square. But I understand you love the kool aide.

I guess it's those little machined in little blocks that make all the difference. At least to you.

A little advice from ole LtCol Jeff Cooper:



Sheesh, talk about a loss of preportion.

Go figure.

Fred

Iraqgunz
09-23-09, 07:35
So I am also curious as to why the rails are made the way they are instead of the "industry norm" so to speak. Is there a real reason?

scottryan
09-23-09, 09:12
Yup, and it didn’t take 30-40 years to fix it. And no US troops died in finding out what didn’t work either. Unlike the AR15/M16/M4 systems.

I guess some folks just have a different value system than I do.

It really is amazing.

Go figure.

Fred


You are full of shit.

It didn't take 30-40 years to fix. It actually took 7 years. If you want to debate if there needed to be a fix in the first place. The same internals adopted for the AR-15 series in 1971 are the same internals used today.

Chieftain
09-23-09, 09:15
What troops in Iraq were killed due to their Colt weapon failing

Army 507th maintenance company. Was the story that got the widest coverage. Of course their weapons didn't work because they were dirty. The Brass have been accusing the troops of their rifles/carbines jamming since their first week in combat in 1967. NOTHING new here.


Report from a friend in-Country (Iraq):

2 August 2009

"Big gun-battle here yesterday!

I experienced a failure-to-extract with my M4. I couldn't clear it, so I had to default to my M9 (Beretta 92F). Insurgents tried to shoot me as I was performed immediate-action/transition, but I was moving so fast they were unsuccessful. M9 ran fine.

My experience is not unusual. Lots of extraction issues here with the M4. Ammunition is being blamed, but it strikes me that the real problem is soft-extraction, due to worn extractors. Many are chipped and otherwise badly haggard."

Comment: It is well know that the bolt, and particularly the extractor, is a weak-point with the Stoner System. The extractor and extractor-spring must be perpetually looked after.

MGI's "D-Ring" is an interim fix that is enormously helpful. Highly recommended for all ARs.



There is an interesting discussion on 10-8 about bolt's breaking. Kevin Lamb stated that he sees 6-8 mil-spec bolts (most likely Colt bolts) break out of every 40! He doesn't say, but am guessing that that the weapons used are MK18 and M4's (which as we know, have carbine length gas systems).

I then get a PM from a Battalion Armorer stating that for almost 10 years, he has only come across one broken bolt.

The interesting part is that they are running A2/A4's. This points directly to what we have always known, that the carbine gas system is MUCH more violent and hard on components than the rifle length gas system.



A buddy sent me a pdf from a firm that is trying to sell the round counters to the military. They state that bolts fail on Gubmint issued M4s between 3K to 6K rounds under harsh conditions. 6K to 10K on "milder" schedules. Barrels burn out at about the same time.

I've heard all the stories about Bushmaster and "others" failing, but it looks like all M4 type carbines have this problem. I wonder if the size of the gas ports could be changed to decrease the pressure? I've added a heavy buffer but that does not address the pressure coming down the gas tube and the resulting pressure placed on the parts in the BCG.

I could go on. We simply need a more robust and reliable rifle. 40 years of the Same Old Shit.

I presume you believe the M4's have never failed at the moment of truth. I don't believe that. The sad fact is we often will never know if the troopers rifle jammed or the Haji got the drop on him, will we?

We need to get a more reliable system in our troops hands, as soon as possible.

What ever we choose, it needs a more robust bolt, extractor, and more effective caliber, and be piston driven, to primarily keep the heat away from the critical functioning parts of the weapon.

Not all piston weapons solve all those problems. I don't believe a Piston AR rifle/carbine is the answer. It retains to many of the other weak componants. We need a new design, there are several to choose from right now. Of course a new design would work. The Israeli Tavor looks pretty good, or something of that ilk. I am not crazy about Bullpup designs, but it does seem to be the future.

I do think we need to keep the AR family's concept of ergonomics and of a component rifle.


So I am also curious as to why the rails are made the way they are instead of the "industry norm" so to speak. Is there a real reason?

One more time.

To piss off folks that don't want to like the rifle and can't find any better reason to not like it. They work, Some folks think it is an important issue because, well just because. I guess what you think is important and what I think is important is a lot different. I would suggest you Call, Email or go to the XCR forum and ask. Seems to be very important to you.

Careful you don't slip into "hysteria". Seems to be a lot of that flying around here. Or at least folks accusing other folks of it.

Simply amazing.

Go figure.

Fred

scottryan
09-23-09, 09:22
Army 507th maintenance company. Was the story that got the widest coverage. Of course their weapons didn't work because they were dirty. The Brass have been accusing the troops of their rifles/carbines jamming since their first week in combat in 1967. NOTHING new here.


Keep posting. You're making yourself look ignorant.

The M16 series was not adopted in 1967.






What ever we choose, it needs a more robust bolt, extractor, and more effective caliber, and be piston driven, to primarily keep the heat away from the critical functioning parts of the weapon.




Almost every modern NATO rifle that is actually fielded and used in real life has a similar bolt and extractor as what is on the AR15.

rob_s
09-23-09, 10:09
To piss off folks that don't want to like the rifle and can't find any better reason to not like it.

If true, then my concerns about the type of mindset that would be indicated by the design are confirmed.

Thanks.

NCPatrolAR
09-23-09, 10:46
Lets keep things civil guys

El Mac
09-23-09, 14:45
Yeah, how does a soldier get a selectfire?

You are kidding, right?

scottryan
09-23-09, 16:04
You are kidding, right?


The soldier doesn't own the weapon. He can't take it with him off duty. The XCR is not a us military weapon.

The question of how he got it is valid.

Dano5326
09-23-09, 17:06
Whatever said military member is doing certainly isn't relevant to a discussion on technical merits of a weapon system.

And, one can never know what is a USG weapon. Different units and agencies have single examples of, or hundreds of EVERY weapon type ever produced.. for operational, familiarization, and schoolhouse use.

And, one is never really off duty in the mil. There are no time cards, one is subject 24/7 to command direction...

So... it could be a USG weapon. Could be a dealer sample.. He could be a SOT.. who cares.

The downward spiral of this thread isn't doing anyone any favors. Why don't aggravated parties take it to a PM.. or meet up and see how it sorts.

The chest beating retard festival polluting this site isn't welcome.

Iraqgunz
09-23-09, 17:42
If a mother****er doesn't clean his weapon that is not the fault of the weapon. I can't teall you how many times I have heard people blame their weapon for a malfunction and then you find out they didn't do the proper maintenance or a host of other things.

And for the record you will not find ONE SINGLE WEAPON system that will continue to run without maintenance, to include the vaunted AK47.

I am not drinking Colt Kool-Aid and I am not claiming it is the best, but it is a good platform and works when everyone does their job.


Army 507th maintenance company. Was the story that got the widest coverage. Of course their weapons didn't work because they were dirty. The Brass have been accusing the troops of their rifles/carbines jamming since their first week in combat in 1967. NOTHING new here.







I could go on. We simply need a more robust and reliable rifle. 40 years of the Same Old Shit.

I presume you believe the M4's have never failed at the moment of truth. I don't believe that. The sad fact is we often will never know if the troopers rifle jammed or the Haji got the drop on him, will we?

We need to get a more reliable system in our troops hands, as soon as possible.

What ever we choose, it needs a more robust bolt, extractor, and more effective caliber, and be piston driven, to primarily keep the heat away from the critical functioning parts of the weapon.

Not all piston weapons solve all those problems. I don't believe a Piston AR rifle/carbine is the answer. It retains to many of the other weak componants. We need a new design, there are several to choose from right now. Of course a new design would work. The Israeli Tavor looks pretty good, or something of that ilk. I am not crazy about Bullpup designs, but it does seem to be the future.

I do think we need to keep the AR family's concept of ergonomics and of a component rifle.



One more time.

To piss off folks that don't want to like the rifle and can't find any better reason to not like it. They work, Some folks think it is an important issue because, well just because. I guess what you think is important and what I think is important is a lot different. I would suggest you Call, Email or go to the XCR forum and ask. Seems to be very important to you.

Careful you don't slip into "hysteria". Seems to be a lot of that flying around here. Or at least folks accusing other folks of it.

Simply amazing.

Go figure.

Fred

TOrrock
09-23-09, 17:47
I think this thread has run its course.