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View Full Version : North Carolina Highway Patrol selects .357 M&P as their new duty sidearm



John_Wayne777
09-09-09, 12:36
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS152702+08-Sep-2009+PRN20090908

PRINGFIELD, Mass., Sept. 8 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Smith & Wesson Holding
Corporation (Nasdaq: SWHC), parent company of Smith & Wesson Corp., the
legendary 157-year old company in the global business of safety, security,
protection and sport, announced today that the North Carolina Highway Patrol
has chosen to equip all of its officers with Smith & Wesson Military & Police
(M&P) Series pistols and with M&P Series tactical rifles. The M&P357 pistols
and M&P15 tactical rifles will be issued respectively as the primary duty
firearms and standard issue patrol rifles.

M&P357 Polymer Pistols
The North Carolina Highway Patrol has purchased 2,000 Smith & Wesson M&P357
polymer pistols chambered in .357SIG. The new duty sidearm will replace
non-Smith & Wesson pistols that were previously issued by the department. The
M&P pistol's reliability, ambidextrous operating controls and three
interchangeable palm swell grip sizes were noted by officials within the
agency as key reasons for the selection of the new duty sidearm. The North
Carolina Highway Patrol added that the polymer pistol's accuracy, reliability
during testing and ability to disassemble the firearm without pressing the
trigger were all primary factors in their decision-making process.

Colonel Randy Glover, Commander of the North Carolina State Highway Patrol,
said, "The North Carolina State Highway Patrol is confident that the M&P357
will prove to be a reliable service weapon for our officers."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apparently they are going to issue M&P rifles as well.

For the life of me I can't remember what their current duty weapon is...perhaps some kind soul will refresh my memory.

NCPatrolAR
09-09-09, 12:39
For the life of me I can't remember what their current duty weapon is...perhaps some kind soul will refresh my memory.

Sig P229 in .357 Sig.

MisterWilson
09-09-09, 12:41
Don't hold me to it but I think I'd read that they were using Sig 226's in .357sig.

Some of the comments on this article elsewhere are...mind numbing.

C4IGrant
09-09-09, 13:01
Don't hold me to it but I think I'd read that they were using Sig 226's in .357sig.

Some of the comments on this article elsewhere are...mind numbing.

Really? Like what?



C4

MisterWilson
09-09-09, 13:19
Nothing worth repeating. You'd honestly be dumber for having read it.

C4IGrant
09-09-09, 13:20
Nothing worth repeating. You'd honestly be dumber for having read it.

Gotcha.


C4

C4IGrant
09-09-09, 13:36
Thanks for the link Mr. W.

Ya, it was stupid. The 357SIG is a good round I think. I would love to run it, but the training cost is just way too high for my taste.



C4

Zhurdan
09-09-09, 13:46
I shoot the G32 .357Sig. If you buy in bulk, you can sometimes still get it for around $0.33/round. Unfortunately, it's about the only round I DON'T reload. I guess I probably should but I shot up the last of the 2k rounds I bought last year about 3 months ago and I just ordered 2k more rounds. Unfortunately, I won't see them until the end of October.

It's a pretty "brisk" round, but I shoot it well. Practice ammo is the kicker though. Even at $0.33/round, it's a little spendy. Fortunately for me, I got in on a hell of a deal for carry ammo. I got some Hornady .357Sig 124 GR HP/XTP at about $9 a box and I bought 25 boxes.

I switched over to my .45 since I couldn't really practice with the .357Sig, but if I could find a good reliable source of relatively cheaper practice ammo, I'd carry that exclusively.

Spiffums
09-09-09, 14:17
Dad has been horse trading on wheel guns this week and I honestly was wondering why they went back to Revolvers as I read through it. Yes I felt dumb when it dawned on me that they mean 357 Sig.

Longhorn
09-09-09, 14:43
Don't hold me to it but I think I'd read that they were using Sig 226's in .357sig.

I never met an NC SHP Trooper who had a 226 as his official sidearm. All the DOT/CMVE guys I met while managing a scrap metal yard and dealing with shut down vehicles, or being on ride alongs going to the mills - all were carrying 229s. Met a couple who liked the 226 better...but no one I made contact with "officially" had one on his hip.

Texas DPS is using the 226 in 357S however.

Oh, and JFreuler (I apologize if I misspelled your name, Sir) on here posted some pics of his NC SHP marked M&P in the M&P pic thread too.

MisterWilson
09-09-09, 14:45
Whoops, brainfart. What do you call upside down dyslexia?

John_Wayne777
09-09-09, 15:05
I drank the .357 sig kool-aid by the gallon when it first came out. I was rather put out to hear the guys in the white lab coats say that it offers essentially equivalent performance to good 9mm loadings.

I was downright depressed when we did some medium shoots at Blackwater and I saw the similarities firsthand.

Speer 125 grain .357 sig load: 1350 fps

Speer 124 grain +P 9mm load: 1220 fps

Delta = 130 fps

.357 sig FMJ ammo, 50 rounds at Wal-Mart: 13.00 (Last time I saw it here)

9mm FMJ ammo, 50 rounds at Wal-Mart: 9.00

Delta = 4.00

4.00 x 20 boxes = 80 dollars per 1,000 rounds.

5 x 80 = 400 extra dollars per 5,000 rounds...and 400 bucks is tuition to a 2 day Vickers course, which, along with the extra couple of rounds in the magazine, I tend to believe would do me more good than the extra 130 fps of muzzle velocity in a real fight.

That's an awful lot of money for an extra 130 fps of muzzle velocity. Agencies, of course, can get different pricing...but if officers want to train with their duty weapon (and who wouldn't?) the choice of .357 sig narrows that option somewhat.

I'm sure that the NCHP has probably used their issued cartridge a couple of times and I'm sure that they've probably had good results from it, and I'm sure there are probably a number of logistics concerns behind sticking with the currently issued caliber...and that when you consider all factors as a whole sticking with the .357 sig makes a lot of sense.

Personally, I'm sticking to the 9mm until the guys in the white lab coats convince me that it kills bad guys deader.

GLOCKMASTER
09-09-09, 15:07
We currently carry the SIG P229 DAK. Yesterday the first group of instructors transitioned to the M&P and today they just completed armorers training.

BTW we have carried the .357 SIG since 2000.

sjohnny
09-09-09, 16:00
I'm issued a SIG 229 in .357SIG. I haven't personally used mine on anything but targets but TX DPS seems to be pretty pleased with its performance. I wouldn't have necessarily chosen it and I wouldn't shoot it if I had to pay for the ammo but from what I've seen and experienced I like the round.

Rider79
09-09-09, 16:21
.357 sig FMJ ammo, 50 rounds at Wal-Mart: 13.00 (Last time I saw it here)

9mm FMJ ammo, 50 rounds at Wal-Mart: 9.00


Was it 2 years ago the last time you were at Walmart? If that's what it costs in VA right now, I'm sending you some money.

Steve
09-09-09, 17:38
We currently carry the SIG P229 DAK. Yesterday the first group of instructors transitioned to the M&P and today they just completed armorers training.

BTW we have carried the .357 SIG since 2000.


As I hear it its a nadda more than A 9mm+p+ load....;)

GLOCKMASTER
09-09-09, 18:02
Apparently they are going to issue M&P rifles as well.

300 rifles and it's actually only 1840 pistols. S&W corrected that today with a new release.

GLOCKMASTER
09-09-09, 18:07
As I hear it its a nadda more than A 9mm+p+ load....;)

Instigator.:p

John_Wayne777
09-09-09, 21:14
Was it 2 years ago the last time you were at Walmart? If that's what it costs in VA right now, I'm sending you some money.

Even through the panic it's been 8.99 a box at the Wal-Marts around here. Since the panic died down a bit they have 9mm in stock all the time now...although there's still a 6 box limit at the ones in my area.


300 rifles and it's actually only 1840 pistols. S&W corrected that today with a new release.

Still a pretty big contract as pistol contracts go. It's a pretty big feather in S&W's cap. It would be nice to see some of the testing the NCHP did on the weapons.

dbrowne1
09-09-09, 22:38
300 rifles and it's actually only 1840 pistols. S&W corrected that today with a new release.

Do you guys have a duty load selected for the rifles?

I know you were playing around with some bags for magazines last year as well - are those in the works as well?

ra2bach
09-09-09, 23:44
Thanks for the link Mr. W.

Ya, it was stupid. The 357SIG is a good round I think. I would love to run it, but the training cost is just way too high for my taste.



C4then just buy a .40S&W barrel and train with that. in my P229, I reload 165gr. Zero bullets in the .40 and recoil and impact at 10 yards is close enough to not worry about. it gets loaded with 357SIG when I CCW

ra2bach
09-09-09, 23:47
I drank the .357 sig kool-aid by the gallon when it first came out. I was rather put out to hear the guys in the white lab coats say that it offers essentially equivalent performance to good 9mm loadings.

I was downright depressed when we did some medium shoots at Blackwater and I saw the similarities firsthand.

Speer 125 grain .357 sig load: 1350 fps

Speer 124 grain +P 9mm load: 1220 fps

Delta = 130 fps

.357 sig FMJ ammo, 50 rounds at Wal-Mart: 13.00 (Last time I saw it here)

9mm FMJ ammo, 50 rounds at Wal-Mart: 9.00

Delta = 4.00

4.00 x 20 boxes = 80 dollars per 1,000 rounds.

5 x 80 = 400 extra dollars per 5,000 rounds...and 400 bucks is tuition to a 2 day Vickers course, which, along with the extra couple of rounds in the magazine, I tend to believe would do me more good than the extra 130 fps of muzzle velocity in a real fight.

That's an awful lot of money for an extra 130 fps of muzzle velocity. Agencies, of course, can get different pricing...but if officers want to train with their duty weapon (and who wouldn't?) the choice of .357 sig narrows that option somewhat.

I'm sure that the NCHP has probably used their issued cartridge a couple of times and I'm sure that they've probably had good results from it, and I'm sure there are probably a number of logistics concerns behind sticking with the currently issued caliber...and that when you consider all factors as a whole sticking with the .357 sig makes a lot of sense.

Personally, I'm sticking to the 9mm until the guys in the white lab coats convince me that it kills bad guys deader.

maybe not deader. but how about just as dead, faster?

:p

Steve
09-10-09, 09:11
Instigator.:p

You know I had too.

Longhorn
09-10-09, 13:15
maybe not deader. but how about just as dead, faster?

:p

Now, now, now...

Just because 357S is quicker than 9mm, doesn't mean they die any faster...it just means the bullet hits 'em quicker, and they may, potentially, in some way shape or form succumb to their wound(s) sooner due to the consistency of 357S awesomeness.

lol :D

sjohnny
09-10-09, 13:21
Yeahbut the bullet gets their faster from a .357SIG so it does make them deader faster.

ra2bach
09-10-09, 16:00
Yeahbut the bullet gets their faster from a .357SIG so it does make them deader faster.

and, if they're deader faster, then they'd also be deader longer, right???


:D

sjohnny
09-11-09, 08:38
Absolutely!

GLOCKMASTER
09-11-09, 18:29
Do you guys have a duty load selected for the rifles?

I know you were playing around with some bags for magazines last year as well - are those in the works as well?

The duty load for the rifles is the same load that the troopers are currently using in their issued rifles. The current duty load is the Federal 55 gr. TRU. It was selected prior to me taking over the program and I'm currently doing everything I can to get a different duty load approved.

Each trooper getting a new rifle will be issued an Eagle Industries Patrol Bandoleer, four magazines, 100 rounds of duty ammunition and a Viking Tactics Padded Sling.

When I get some time I will post some pictures of the new rifle.

IRONFINS
08-20-10, 00:26
.......

SWATcop556
08-20-10, 01:44
Having carried a G31c for five years at my old agency I can say that the M&P is a good platform for the .357 sig. I'm sure smith's offer for the trade in might have affected the decision but two of our own members carry the M&P in .357 without issues or complints.

IRONFINS
08-20-10, 06:54
.......

rob_s
08-20-10, 07:28
I guess nobody is going to tell the REAL reason they went with the M&P. It is the same reason Probation and Parole went M&P. It is NOT because their firearm instructors prefer it. It's because Smith offered LEO agencies a deal if they traded in their old pistols & revolvers they could pay around $100 to $150 difference to get the M&Ps. That pistol was selected by administrators, not who actually carry them. Most of the agencies who don't drink the M&P cheap deal kool-aid, have been choosing Glocks. .40s and .45s are making a come back among agencies. For the LEO pricing you can't beat Glock. Sig is $300-$400 more depending on which model and options. I didn't like the lack of grip on the M&P while at the range in 90 to 98 degree weather. The Glock and Sig shot before and after Smith performed much better on handling and accuracy.

In my experience that's a pretty standard practice, to the point that RFPs actually include in them a section for the supplier of the new gun to list what they'll offer in trade for whatever gun the department is currently using. The shop I worked at actually lost a deal this way when a competing shop simply offered more for the trades than we did (as it turned out that was just a way to hide the better deal they were getting from the manufacturer of the new gun, but that's a different story altogether).

texag
08-20-10, 07:32
I think the plastic frame feels like the plastic that Fisher Price uses to make playground toys. It is too smooth and for LEO that will be working in the sun (sweaty hands) and rain, I prefer a high traction grip. And I didn't even mention the Quality Control Issues that have plagued Smith & Wesson for the last 10 years. That is why they are offering these guns so cheap with a trade in. They lost their foot hold in the market to Glock. I listened to the sales pitch for the Smith & Wesson, and frankly its BS. They didn't invent the Polymer pistol, nor did they make it popular. It doesn't shoot or perform better than the Sig 229s HP was carrying. One of my fellow co-workers put it best when asked if we liked the M&Ps we tested. "Well, why would we go from a BMW to a Ford Pinto?"

What's your experience with the M&P? I agree about the grip, but other than that I haven't found any issues with it in my 6k through the platform, with 5k of that being done by one gun. Calling it a ford pinto is just illuminating one's ignorance, IMO.

theblackknight
08-20-10, 11:19
Was it 2 years ago the last time you were at Walmart? If that's what it costs in VA right now, I'm sending you some money.

I was 20.13$ lighter last weekend leaving walmart w 100r of federal 124g fmj for a match.

C4IGrant
08-20-10, 12:25
I think the plastic frame feels like the plastic that Fisher Price uses to make playground toys. It is too smooth and for LEO that will be working in the sun (sweaty hands) and rain, I prefer a high traction grip. And I didn't even mention the Quality Control Issues that have plagued Smith & Wesson for the last 10 years. That is why they are offering these guns so cheap with a trade in. They lost their foot hold in the market to Glock. I listened to the sales pitch for the Smith & Wesson, and frankly its BS. They didn't invent the Polymer pistol, nor did they make it popular. It doesn't shoot or perform better than the Sig 229s HP was carrying. One of my fellow co-workers put it best when asked if we liked the M&Ps we tested. "Well, why would we go from a BMW to a Ford Pinto?"


Glock and all other gun manufactures do the same thing (offer cash for trade ins).

The SIG pistol you are comparing the M&P is all metal, twice the cost of the M&P. Couple that with the fact that SIG has more issues with their guns than S&W does and the M&P is a better choice.



C4

DocGKR
08-20-10, 13:30
Ironfins,

I must strongly disagree with your comments regarding the M&P. Since 1985, at various times I have been issued, qualified with, or authorized to carry the Beretta 92F & M9, Sig P228 & P226, S&W 3913 & 5906, Glock 17/19, S&W 4013 & 4006, Sig P220, S&W 4513 & 4566, various 1911ís, as well as several S&W revolvers including J, K, L , and N-frames. I also have a fair degree of experience with Browning Hi-Powers, Glock 22/23 & 21, various HK pistols, as well as the recent S&W M&P pistols. The M&P may just be the best LE service pistol produced to date. I was involved in a M&P40 trial at a large agency where four M&P40's fired 7000 rounds each in 1 week without any significant issues. Up to this point, we have not seen any major problems yet with M&P's--they just keep steadily improving. The Apex duty kits offer a substantial improvement to the M&P trigger feel. An M&P w/ambi safety and Apex duty kit will be the service pistol I'll pick if I ever go back to patrol duties again. I am far less impressed with recent offerings by Sig (see the GAO report on recent Sig failures) and the gen 4 Glocks also have issues.

IRONFINS
08-20-10, 20:49
..........

NCPatrolAR
08-20-10, 21:01
Ok, I want to make sure I am understanding everybody here. So agencies who have Glocks or Sigs should trade in all their guns and the toolboxes full of extra parts, and send all their armorers to an M&P school to learn a new platform. Not to mention new holsters. Please explain to me why the M&P is a better choice? Why should they spend more money to change to the M&P? Changing an entire agency is much different than changing an individuals "kit". Try to request more money in a budget from the state, county, or city for new firearms every five years. LMAO, please how many of you have complained about wasteful spending like this? It is one thing to change firearms when the entire agency as a whole has worn out firearms. I can tell not many people subscribing to this thread have done any ordering new firearms for agencies.

BTW the "Ford Pinto" remark was an example of the difference in cost using two cars most people know. Sorry I hurt your feelings.:fie:


How about you detail your experience with agency procurement of new firearms, the deals Smith offers for agency adoption of the M&P, and your hands-on experience with the M&P compared to other pistols.

GLOCKMASTER
08-20-10, 21:04
I can tell not many people subscribing to this thread have done any ordering new firearms for agencies.

I understand it as I'm one of the people responsible for the NC Highway Patrols transition to the M&P. I can tell from your initial post that you are not as knowledgeable about the M&P transition as you think you are.Both with the Highway Patrol and Probation and Parole.

mass-diver
08-20-10, 21:14
Good choice on the platform, but I've never really bought into the .357sig. Are the ballistics really much better than a +p+ 9mm?

Amp Mangum
08-20-10, 21:14
Every trooper I have talked to likes the M&P and one said qualification scores went up versus the previously carried P229.

RWK
08-20-10, 21:35
I understand it as I'm one of the people responsible for the NC Highway Patrols transition to the M&P.

Ha! I was biting my lip, waiting for you to weigh in. But, what do you know anyway? You're probably just an administrator who hasn't even taken his gun from its holster in recent memory. Do you still remember which end the bullet comes out of? :sarcastic:

NCPatrolAR
08-20-10, 21:37
Every trooper I have talked to likes the M&P and one said qualification scores went up versus the previously carried P229.

The officers in my agency had the opportunity to test out the M&P before we ever adopted them. The number of people that did not like them was an extremely small fraction of the officers here. Even the few that I know that didnt like them have warmed up to them over the few years we've been using them.

We currently approximately 1,500 (if not more) M&Ps in use right now and the biggest issue we've seen has been the rust issue that seems to pop up every once in a while.

For the people complaining about how slick the gun feels; there is some merit in that. When we were doing our transition to the M&P; I spoke with several guys from Smith about it. While they all stated that they agreed the gun felt slick; a more textured frame wouldnt fly due to people complaining of it being too painful to grab. Their solution, and one that works very well, is to simply texture the grip insert being used. My duty gun sports such an insert and I encounter few issues with the gun slipping in my hand. In fact; I was shooting night qual this week and even with sweat poring down my arms and soaking my hands due to the humidity I didnt have the gun slip in my hands.

IRONFINS
08-20-10, 21:50
.....

GLOCKMASTER
08-20-10, 22:08
Thank you NCPatrolAR for your honest answer about the slick grip. The ones we tested were standard without any type of surface texture beyond what it comes with standard. I was surprised when SHP went with the M&P as they usually have the best equipment. After shooting the M&Ps in various frame sizes and calibers, I just don't see anything that would justify a change from a Sig or Glock. I am not going to give specific background info about myself. I can NOT, it is against my agency's policy.

Check your PM's.

NCPatrolAR
08-20-10, 23:31
I was surprised when SHP went with the M&P as they usually have the best equipment.

We were running the M&Ps prior to SHP's transition and think we have a great duty gun. That is something we cant say for every gun we've used over the years though.




After shooting the M&Ps in various frame sizes and calibers, I just don't see anything that would justify a change from a Sig or Glock.

Some of the significant advantages the M&P has over the Sig include:

single trigger pull (unless you include the DAK)
lower bore axis
lighter weight
ambi slide release
adjustable backstraps
better recoil characteristics (highly subjective though)

Over the Glock:

better grip angle (subjective)
ambi slide release
adjustable backstraps
less "slick" cocking serrations (subjective)
frame is built around the .40 cartridge


So far I've yet to meet a Trooper that doesnt like the M&P.

RyanB
08-21-10, 00:09
Surplus Ammo and Arms has .357 Gold Dots for about 40 cents a piece right now. Google them. I thought hard about getting a .357 just for that deal, but I'm going to stick with 9mm and +P+ Winchesters.

GermanSynergy
08-21-10, 01:38
Outstanding choice, and a win for the officers of the NCHP and S&W. :smile:


Our local agencies went with the M&P 40's in 2007 (from the Beretta 96D) and couldn't be happier.

Magic_Salad0892
08-21-10, 06:30
I am not speaking myopically about the M&P. (As I favor Glock pistols.) (I really want a VTAC version of the M&P-45 Midsize though.)

IRONFINS:

How many people including yourself from ''your agency'' tested the M&P and what were the opinions of the others? Were there any unanimous complaints? What does the SIG offer that the M&P doesn't?

J: Why does your department stick with .357 SIG over the cheaper and just as good 9x19mm? Do you prefer the .357S?

I have no opinion on the round as I've never owned a pistol chambered for it. However, I read a lot.

GLOCKMASTER
08-21-10, 07:39
I am not speaking myopically about the M&P. (As I favor Glock pistols.) (I really want a VTAC version of the M&P-45 Midsize though.)

IRONFINS:

How many people including yourself from ''your agency'' tested the M&P and what were the opinions of the others? Were there any unanimous complaints? What does the SIG offer that the M&P doesn't?

J: Why does your department stick with .357 SIG over the cheaper and just as good 9x19mm? Do you prefer the .357S?

I have no opinion on the round as I've never owned a pistol chambered for it. However, I read a lot.

We have kept the .357SIG since 2000 because of our success with it in shootings. I have spoken with other departments across the nation that have been just as satisfied with their results in shootings since they started using this caliber. The cartridge flat out works and works especially well around vehicles. Besides the members in the field are not complaining about the caliber.

When we made the transition I had over a million and a half rounds of practice ammunition in inventory along with about a half a million duty rounds. Not a good time to be changing calibers.

What some people fail to realize is that every mass produced weapons platform brings with it it's own set of problems, especially when you are talking about over 1800 pistols. Prior to the M&P we used the SIG P229 DAK, the Beretta Cougar (WHAT A POS), the Beretta 96 and the 92. Each of those pistols had it's own set of unique issues, some more than others, as when humans are responsible for machining and assembly of things problems show up in the end product. The big question is, what is the manufacturers customer service going to do for you and how quickly are they going to respond when you do have an issue with the product. That is something that should be considered when choosing a weapon for an agency that is often times over looked in the platform selection process.

ralph
08-21-10, 09:17
Over at MP pistol .com, in the General M&P Disscussion forum, There's thread about the ATF testing new pistols..Glock Sig and the M&P.So far, SIG got kicked to the curb, for too many failures.. Anyway, it's over there for those who want to read it..There's also a link to the Evaluation summary as well, good read..

GLOCKMASTER
08-21-10, 09:37
Over at MP pistol .com, in the General M&P Disscussion forum, There's thread about the ATF testing new pistols..Glock Sig and the M&P.So far, SIG got kicked to the curb, for too many failures.. Anyway, it's over there for those who want to read it..There's also a link to the Evaluation summary as well, good read..

Here (http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/4023393.htm) is a link to the US GAO decision on the SIG protest. A very interesting read.

ralph
08-21-10, 09:45
Here (http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/4023393.htm) is a link to the US GAO decision on the SIG protest. A very interesting read.

JFreuler;
Thank you, that's the link I was refering to in my post, I would've liked to link it here, but, my computer skills are sadly lacking...:blink:

chubs
08-21-10, 10:46
Besides the members in the field are not complaining about the caliber.





I like the caliber, especially for the environment we work in. Personally I wouldn't want to switch to anything else and I've yet to meet anyone here that has stated anything differently.

Alpha Sierra
08-21-10, 11:34
We have kept the .357SIG since 2000 because of our success with it in shootings.
I LOL at those who piss on the .357 Sig as being "the same" as 9x19 (even in +P+) based on gel tests ONLY. That's like saying that .38 Special and .357 Magnum are basically the same.

When it comes right down to it, real life results pretty much validate SIG's design brief: create an autopistol cartridge that very closely approximates the performance of the 125 grain .357 Magnum

Kentucky Cop
08-21-10, 11:58
Sharp Agency Mr. JFreuler! When I was in the academy in 1999, we watched a few dash cam training videos from North and South Carolina. Hope everyone gets a better perspective of what kind of agency we are discussing here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5u-njjVvRQ

I bet there is a few in here that you trained. HUGE thread derailment but fitting for the topic...

KY Cop

RyanB
08-21-10, 13:01
I LOL at those who piss on the .357 Sig as being "the same" as 9x19 (even in +P+) based on gel tests ONLY. That's like saying that .38 Special and .357 Magnum are basically the same.

When it comes right down to it, real life results pretty much validate SIG's design brief: create an autopistol cartridge that very closely approximates the performance of the 125 grain .357 Magnum

There is a 500 feet per second difference between those two, and my 127gr loading is 100 fps behind .357 Sig.

JohnN
08-21-10, 14:23
I have no experience with a .357 Sig how does the recoil impulse compare with 9mm and 40 S&W? How does penetration on auto bodies, windows and hard cover compare to the 40?

RyanB
08-21-10, 14:40
Nothing does a sheet metal barrier quite like .357.

SWATcop556
08-21-10, 20:48
I carried a Glock 31c in 357 sig for five years and I can vouch from personal experience that two rounds to the torso will drop a drunk biker armed with a deer rifle. And that's after both rounds went through a glass storm door.

I like the round but my new agency only provides ammo in 9mm, 40 cal, and 45acp. I went with the M&P40 after a lot of testing and shooting. I retired my G19s to HD for the wife and training.

obucina
08-21-10, 22:08
I carried a Glock 31c in 357 sig for five years and I can vouch from personal experience that two rounds to the torso will drop a drunk biker armed with a deer rifle. And that's after both rounds went through a glass storm door.

I like the round but my new agency only provides ammo in 9mm, 40 cal, and 45acp. I went with the M&P40 after a lot of testing and shooting. I retired my G19s to HD for the wife and training.

i purchased a glock 32 as a "vehicle gun". I drive through a few pockets of sporadic high crimes areas coming home from work and often late at night. I read about its effctiveness and while I hope I never have to use it, its my proverbial parachute.

Beat Trash
08-22-10, 14:47
When we made the transition I had over a million and a half rounds of practice ammunition in inventory along with about a half a million duty rounds. Not a good time to be changing calibers.

What some people fail to realize is that every mass produced weapons platform brings with it it's own set of problems, especially when you are talking about over 1800 pistols. Prior to the M&P we used the SIG P229 DAK, the Beretta Cougar (WHAT A POS), the Beretta 96 and the 92. Each of those pistols had it's own set of unique issues, some more than others, as when humans are responsible for machining and assembly of things problems show up in the end product. The big question is, what is the manufacturers customer service going to do for you and how quickly are they going to respond when you do have an issue with the product. That is something that should be considered when choosing a weapon for an agency that is often times over looked in the platform selection process.

You make points here that if many understood, could stop about half of the topics on the internet!

My agency transitioned to the 9mm M&P before the gun was even available to the public. The three T&E guns we received were the first 3 9mm M&P's to leave the factory. They arrived along with non-disclosure agreements that had to be signed before the guns were presented.

We have about 1,150 guns in the field. Have there been parts that broke? Yes there have. But not that many, and no pattern has developed. I have yet to meet an officer who wished for their S&W 5946 back (POS!).

How a manufacture stands behind their product after the sale means alot to me. Smith & Wesson takes care of their LE accounts. Their customer service for private sales has become the standard that others in the industry should strive to achieve. They have earned my loyalty and my personally owned firearms business.

I have no experience with the 357 sig round. But if an agency hasn't had ammo related issues, and has the amount of ammunition on hand as was stated, I fully understand why no attempt to change caliber was made.

I fully expect that the North Carolina Highway Patrol will be content with the M&P.

Entropy
08-23-10, 11:58
I carried a Glock 31c in 357 sig for five years and I can vouch from personal experience that two rounds to the torso will drop a drunk biker armed with a deer rifle. And that's after both rounds went through a glass storm door.

I like the round but my new agency only provides ammo in 9mm, 40 cal, and 45acp. I went with the M&P40 after a lot of testing and shooting. I retired my G19s to HD for the wife and training.

A major point that Fackler and Dr. Roberts have made over the years is the comparison between the regular patrol officer, and the SWAT or HWY Patrol officer.

SWAT officers are usually the cream of the crop. They train often, and as individuals they are very skilled shooters. Then you have state patrol officers who are also more highly trained than the average cop. Highway patrol generally have tougher standards, and almost all of their shootings are in or around vehicles.......scenarios that they train for all the time.

Beat officers on the other hand, do not generally get as much training time in, the average cop isn't as much of a gun nut, and their shootings are in less than predictable environments.

Take all these things into account, and you're looking at more precision shooting from the SWAT and HWY Patrol guys.....and less that ideal precision from the beat cops. The most common general issue caliber for large departments is 9mm or .40S&W. SWAT and HWY patrol use a lot of .45acp and .357sig.

So, there may be something to the .45acp and .357sig.......but you cannot ignore the major discrepency between the skill levels of the shooters you are comparing. I'm willing to bet, that if you switch the calibers around so that the SWAT and HWY patrol guys were using 9mm/.40, and the beat cops were using .45acp and .357sig the SWAT and HWY patrol guys would still come out on top. This, among many other countless reasons is why you have to take shooting statistics with a grain of salt. The FBI protocol tests is the only concrete comparison of wounding ability(thus, stopping the threat) between the calibers.

TroyTK
08-23-10, 13:08
Then you have state patrol officers who are also more highly trained than the average cop. Highway patrol generally have tougher standards, and almost all of their shootings are in or around vehicles.......scenarios that they train for all the time.

Beat officers on the other hand, do not generally get as much training time in, the average cop isn't as much of a gun nut, and their shootings are in less than predictable environments.


I really couldn't let this pass without a comment! My experience is that the state officers have the same standards and training as the average 'beat' officer in my neck of the woods. Obviously this is highly dependent on which municipal or county agency that you compare the state officers to, but the majority of local agencies around here have standards and training that is not any different (and often exceeds) that of the state police.

Beat Trash
08-23-10, 13:20
I really couldn't let this pass without a comment! My experience is that the state officers have the same standards and training as the average 'beat' officer in my neck of the woods. Obviously this is highly dependent on which municipal or county agency that you compare the state officers to, but the majority of local agencies around here have standards and training that is not any different (and often exceeds) that of the state police.

I have to agree, at least for my area. While I can see several areas in which I would like to see improvement in our training, I feel our firearms training is at least the equal to the State Police in my state, if not better. Our "Beat Trash" officers confront more armed individuals and recover more guns in a week than our State Police will in a month.

We have more OIS per year than the State Police does also...

Training is dependent upon the size of the agency, the budget, and the perceived need. We have about 1,100 officers. The training available to the agency with 110 officers, or with 11 officers, obviously would differ due to budget and access to training facilities.

Kentucky Cop
08-23-10, 22:18
Disregard.

Bulldog7972
08-23-10, 22:29
A major point that Fackler and Dr. Roberts have made over the years is the comparison between the regular patrol officer, and the SWAT or HWY Patrol officer.

SWAT officers are usually the cream of the crop. They train often, and as individuals they are very skilled shooters. Then you have state patrol officers who are also more highly trained than the average cop. Highway patrol generally have tougher standards, and almost all of their shootings are in or around vehicles.......scenarios that they train for all the time.

Beat officers on the other hand, do not generally get as much training time in, the average cop isn't as much of a gun nut, and their shootings are in less than predictable environments.

Take all these things into account, and you're looking at more precision shooting from the SWAT and HWY Patrol guys.....and less that ideal precision from the beat cops. The most common general issue caliber for large departments is 9mm or .40S&W. SWAT and HWY patrol use a lot of .45acp and .357sig.

So, there may be something to the .45acp and .357sig.......but you cannot ignore the major discrepency between the skill levels of the shooters you are comparing. I'm willing to bet, that if you switch the calibers around so that the SWAT and HWY patrol guys were using 9mm/.40, and the beat cops were using .45acp and .357sig the SWAT and HWY patrol guys would still come out on top. This, among many other countless reasons is why you have to take shooting statistics with a grain of salt. The FBI protocol tests is the only concrete comparison of wounding ability(thus, stopping the threat) between the calibers.

Where oh where did you get this info from? Not to be rude or offend anybody but I'll take a working beat cop from the ghetto anyday. Where I work the beat guys average anywhere from 3-5 shootings a week. Your theory and statements could not be more wrong.

Entropy
08-23-10, 22:46
Where oh where did you get this info from? Not to be rude or offend anybody but I'll take a working beat cop from the ghetto anyday. Where I work the beat guys average anywhere from 3-5 shootings a week. Your theory and statements could not be more wrong.

Okay, perhaps you guys are reading me wrong here. I was a beat cop for 5 years before joining SWAT 3 years ago.

Major departments that I've worked with such as Austin PD, LVPD, and Orlando PD as I've moved around as a Federal have had such differences in OIS. Basically, a department of 1500-2000 beat cops may spread 3 shootings a week between them, but SWAT would spread about 1-2 shootings a week between about 50 officers. The SWAT OIS tended to be much cleaner. I attribute the better shootings as a result of more training, and the fact that most of the time the SWAT officers owned the situation when the lead started flying. My primary point, and a dominant theme of this thread, is that taking the results of SWAT shootings and the .357sig may not be an accurate interpretation of the caliber's effectiveness in comparison to the OIS of patrol officer shootings. Take it how you will.

This has been a topic of discussion in the analysis of the M&S one shot stop statistics and why they are a crappy estimate caliber effectiveness from past IWBA articles.

NCPatrolAR
08-23-10, 22:53
Lets watch how far this deviates from the purpose of the thread. With that being said...............



I attribute the better shootings as a result of more training, and the fact that most of the time the SWAT officers owned the situation when the lead started flying.

This is probably much more of the latter than the former.

SWATcop556
08-23-10, 22:55
I really couldn't let this pass without a comment! My experience is that the state officers have the same standards and training as the average 'beat' officer in my neck of the woods. Obviously this is highly dependent on which municipal or county agency that you compare the state officers to, but the majority of local agencies around here have standards and training that is not any different (and often exceeds) that of the state police.

I agree as well and I'm not sure how my post about my personal experience with the .357 round turned into a SWAT vs beat cop post. When it comes to pistol rounds it comes down to shot placement and has little to do with caliber, which has been said here over and over. NYPD ESU carries 9mm and I would consider them a well trained SWAT team.

And for what it's worth I would take any of my "beat officers" over some of the Troopers that work my area any day. Not a slam against all Troopers but some are just highway "beat cops." DPS has the same standards as any of our local agencies and I've heard rumor that they are ditching the .357 for the 40 cal! :secret:

ETA: The OIS I was involved in was not a SWAT call. It was a "I'm going to kill my roommate and then the cops call." (I'll keep it on topic from here on out........the best I can)

FChen17213
08-23-10, 23:20
It seems like all of NC SHP has changed over to M&Ps in 357 Sig now. At one point a few months ago, I'd still see a Trooper with a P229 DAK in 357. Every Trooper I know likes the gun as previously mentioned. The M&P has taken over my area of NC by storm. So many agencies have switched over to it in the central NC area. I think Wake County Corrections was the first to change to the .40 M&P. Then other agencies such as Alamance County did also. The huge ones were when Raleigh Police changed to the M&P in 45. Charlotte PD also uses the M&P now. Durham County Sheriff's Office also uses the M&P 45....I'm pretty sure that Durham City Police is also going M&P. Don't know about the other areas, but the M&P has now eclipsed the Glock in my area. Morrisville PD still uses the Glock as well as NC State Police and State Capitol Police.

That being said, the 357 Sig round also has a following here. The Wake County Sheriff's Office still issues DA/SA P229s in 357 Sig. I believe some of the officers are issued newer models with light rails...mainly SRT and Canine units (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

MikeO
08-28-10, 15:29
City and state have switched from Glocks in 9/357 to M&Ps and have been happy w them.

As far as terminal ballistics, info from FBI and Speer:

125/357 SIG, P229

bare gel 14.7/.64
cloth 17.3/.51
steel 16.4/.50


124/9 GD +P, G19

bare gel 12/.73
cloth 12.5/.64
steel 17/.46

I've seen other gel tests where they were even closer. Both seem to be working fine for the PDs that use them.